jesterkind
jesterkind
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968684#Comment_3968684
Lol. So the "tunneled" survivor can follow the chase, make themselves a nuisance by dropping pallets and the like, and be permanently invulnerable. Like, you're trying to chase the guy who unhooked, playing at a pallet, but the "tunneled survivor" is running around blocking your FOV and masking footsteps with his grunts of pain, and just in general being as distracting as possible. Then he drops a pallet on your head while the survivor is on the opposite end of the loop. Then they follow the chase to the next loop and repeat. Permanent invulnerability lol.
You caught where I tentatively suggested making them unable to drop pallets?
I'll grant they could run around and try to be an annoyance, but I'm fine with that. They're not achieving anything productive, I'm fine with survivors dicking about to try and distract me.
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I think there's an easy pitfall to trip into in this discussion, and that's overcomplicating solutions with a big fancy mechanic designed to track variables. In my opinion, you can make solutions to tunnelling much simpler and more elegant than that, though of course you do always need to add in a few caveats or twists to cover for potential problems either way.
What I'd propose is the following:
A survivor who is unhooked no longer has Endurance. Instead, they lose collision, and cannot be damaged or bodyblocked— alongside not being able to bodyblock the killer themselves. This loss of collision should last a reasonable amount of time- somewhere around fifteen-ish seconds if you want it to be static, but I personally support making it last ten seconds and then having the timer pause for ten seconds if a chase is initiated.
The survivor still gets Haste, and in fact the percentage should probably be increased a little bit.With this setup in place, tunnelling a survivor becomes functionally impossible for a good chunk of time, during which the survivor can get into a better position so chasing them after the timer elapses (which the killer has to wait out, unlike now) is also harder.
This solves tunnelling outright. It's no longer easier/quicker to chase someone after they're unhooked because you cannot bypass their safeguard and must wait out a noticeable timer before you can even try to do damage— chasing a halfway competent survivor this way just makes chases take far too long. The next question though, is can this be abused?The answer is, yes, so we need to make a few adjustments. While survivors can't abuse it the way they currently can Endurance, with bodyblocking, aware survivors could try and get in position for flashlight saves or pallet saves without the killer being able to stop them.
Fixing flashlight saves is easy; survivors should simply not be able to use items until the timer elapses. Easy enough, worst case scenario for them there is they wait a short while or touch a generator if they want to heal with a medkit.
Fixing pallet saves is a little trickier. Throwing down a pallet is something a survivor being tunnelled may want to do, even with a loss of collision, but you could feasibly make that impossible too for the duration. Some testing would need to be done there, for sure, but that's the only major roadblock.Either way, successfully getting a save should obviously count as a Conspicuous Action, the same way hook saves do.
From there, adjust a few perks here and there, and you're golden. Tunnelling is impossible, the solution can't be abused, and killers even get the removal of Endurance bodyblocking post-unhook as a little bonus.
As a final note I'd probably give survivors some kind of visual effect during the timer, just so newer players know something is up. That part isn't required, it'd just be a bit better overall. -
@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968576#Comment_3968576
It was apparently going to be tested in Chaos Shuffle for use in the main game. I assume they wanted to test the system while disabling any perks that could make it problematic, then address the problematic perks before pushing it to live.
Where did you get that information? I don't remember any communication about it being tested for the main game, but I might've missed something.
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If we're gonna pull from Gotham, I'd much sooner look at Scarecrow than the Batman Who Laughs or even a regular Joker incarnation. I feel there's much better ground to work from there for a power— though maybe the BWL could be a legendary skin?
I'd love survivors too, it'd never happen but I'd cross my fingers for Harper Row :3
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968536#Comment_3968536
Considering that we had a post in February giving a thorough overview of what each part of Phase 1 would contain and why, yet it's almost August and have nothing regarding Phase 2 besides a cancelled Anti-Slug test, I'm going to say you're right that they are scrambling to get something actually usable together. I think they were planning on making these wide, sweeping changes to the way the game played, but since Phase 1 was so universally hated we're probably going to get something practically useless.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the anti-slug thing cancelled part of Chaos Shuffle and not a test for the base-game feature mentioned on the roadmap?
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…What on earth would "true casual mode" be?
This is a sincere question, I have no idea what you'd change about DBD's current mode - which by all accounts is already the casual/quick play type of mode - to make it "true casual".
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I gotta second the question, what about this patch is going to affect gen times?
As to the buffs, I'd personally be against buffing CoB or Overcharge in this way. CoB should be more of an info perk, that's much healthier (although it would need hefty buffs in that area) and Overcharge just needs a full on rework. I did have an idea for that a while back, I should go find it- maybe make it a dedicated post of its own.
For slowdown in general, while there are a few weak links, the available pool of viable picks is quite good at the moment, so I don't think it's necessary.
If they did something to limit slowdown stacking I'd be very down for buffing the weaker perks, though. -
@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965048#Comment_3965048
I really don't think she is on spot where you need to add nerfs to possible buffs…
Where she was before the previous nerfs would've warranted some minor, smarter nerfs. The only one I'm definitely gonna stand by is the slowdown on placing a drone though, it's the SINGLE good idea from that patch.
The only reason Merchant is even in the conversation for "place thing at loop, survivors run away" despite her power being designed to be played around in loops is that she gains more distance than the other killers who can do this. Lowering that won't hurt her for doing anything else, and it'll tackle a notoriously unfun problem that has existed across multiple killers.
For the stealth, eh, I've never had an issue with her stealth but it is quite good and people do complain about it. If making that slightly worse is the price for getting her drones to be functional again, I'm willing to pay it.
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As much as I don't think BHVR are going to, it really would be appropriate to give her some placeholder buffs so she actually functions between now and her rework.
While it wouldn't be difficult to just… fix her previous iteration, I also think that would take a bit too much work to really justify as placeholder buffs, so in lieu of going all the way and fixing her outright I'd probably propose the following tweaks:
- Revert her Haste and Hindered numbers/functionality to where they were prior to the nerfs
- increase the slowdown for placing a drone
- Let her scan people vaulting again
- Maybe make her a bit louder to offset how good she is at using Undetectable
That still leaves her with a few of her old problems, most notably her power not conveying itself very well and being unintuitive as a result, but even with a pure total reversion she wouldn't be outright problematic.
Yes, some people will be mad, but to some degree you have to ignore the most unreasonable subset of commenters.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962822#Comment_3962822
There can be up to 13 chests in a map, so you can create up to 6 of them.
But without a full squad each burning a coin offering, you get one, because there are only three by default. That's what they're saying here.
I think the easter egg chests on Midwich and Nostromo Wreckage don't count towards the total, so two on those maps, lol.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964918#Comment_3964918
I was with you until you said MFT was fine.
I mean, it was, I was there.
It was stuff like MFT/For The People, MFT/Hope, even MFT/Dark Theory that was really egregious. Even as Legion I rarely felt MFT was that detrimental to me. It was strong, sure, but only to the point of being competitive with other Exhaustion perks.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964842#Comment_3964842
That wasn't my point, my point is that rebuilding resources at ALL is something with the potential to be strong against some Killers and does need conditions to limit it. Rebuilding resources is not a "subpar" effect, especially if it's rebuilding of something like a god pallet, which is why it needs to be limited and be a fragile resource that gets rebuilt.
As for "but it's OK because Survivors waste time doing it", everyone said that about the CoH meta too, "it takes time to do boon, what harm does it cause?" Everyone said 3% Haste on injure was fine too and wouldn't be a problem either, until it was. Everyone said another 5% on Pop would be okay and it wasn't according tot he Devs. Just because the effect of a perk is minimal at first blush or takes time to do doesn't mean it can't be used well or won't be problematic later on.
While you're not wrong, it is still worth pointing out that some of these have too many conditions for what they are. Apocalyptic Ingenuity the most, since its conditions are:
- Fragile pallet instead of a real one, so much MUCH less impactful once you've built it
- Two chests for one pallet, needing to be repeated
- Eight seconds of build time
- There needs to have been a pallet broken in that spot first
Some of these are fine, some of them should probably be reigned in, but either way there's a lot that has to go right to get what is an intentionally restrained version of rebuilding resources. I also wouldn't call it subpar necessarily, but it's also misleading to just refer to it as "rebuilding resources" when the resources are noticeably weaker than they were before being rebuilt.
Also it's not really the point but 3% Haste on injure was fine, it was combos that made MFT unbearable. The perk on its own was just pretty good.
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I'll always remember shortly after the Alien chapter released, I had a game where we were playing against the Xenomorph and one of my teammates was playing as Ripley.
It was the endgame, and I was on the hook. Instead of leaving, the Ripley player made the risky play and returned to the hook, getting us both out in the process.
It's always stuck out to me because of two things:1: That's such a canon play, Ripley literally does this in the movie
2: I think that makes me Jonesy… -
Shattered Hope for sure.
It's not even that it should be basekit, it's that it explicitly shouldn't be basekit. It runs contrary to the entire purpose of boons from a game design perspective, and in my opinion, you don't even need it when you are facing boons. At the same time, it also does literally nothing if the survivors don't have boons.
It should absolutely get a hard rework. Maybe something for showing the aura of a survivor that breaks a dull totem, or something.
Special shoutout goes to the Teamwork perks. Individually the first two are trash and the second two are kinda eh, but that's not the thing I want to talk about, they're just weak. The badly designed part is the framework, by which I mean, there is no framework. There's nothing those perks have in common other than the vague idea of helping each other out, and they're not even the only perks to do that, it's just a nothing tag that goes on some perks arbitrarily.
Compare that to something like Boons, with an extremely defined framework, or even something like exhaustion with a clear framework that has a few outliers for flavour. There's just nothing to Teamwork perks on a design level. -
@Rookie1978 said:
Me disagreeing with people isn't me instituting a grand conspiracy im just regularly dumbfounded that people can actively play this game and hold that opinion at the same time
In order to facilitate discussion, what exactly do you like about her? What character fantasy is she supposed to fulfill or portray? What does she do compared to other killers that makes you want to play her?
Genuinely curious what merit other people see in her and I've never gotten a straightforward answer so maybe the BHVR forums can give me one
I like killers that focus more on positioning and macro gameplay than they do a dash or projectile, for the most part, and Skull Merchant's power is one of those. I did also like her original version for similar reasons, but that version had a lot more potent problems so it's reasonable she got changed.
As she was prior to the nerfs, you have a killer with a fairly versatile toolset that still has a clear identity and gameplay loop surrounding scanning survivors. Depending on your preferences you could lean on trying to out-position survivors mid-loop (assuming they understand that you don't need to leave a loop just because a drone is in it, anyway) with your own movement and the drone beam reversal button, you could focus on "laser tagging" survivors by sniping them with a beam as soon as the drone initialises, and you could focus on stealthy, hidden drones you chase survivors into.
Each of those tools can be leaned into at the loadout screen, but all of those things are available mid-match too, making her reasonably flexible without losing sight of the core mechanics of her power.
She also has pretty good stealth, if you like stealth playstyles. Her basekit Undetectable is pretty good despite the short timer, and Undetectable from other sources is even better. If you like stealth killers whatsoever, it's fairly obvious why that'd be appealing.
In short, her appeal is that she has a set of tools that emphasise positioning and prediction in the micro element, and planning + tracking in the macro element. We don't have many killers like that and most of them suck, so Skull Merchant 2.0 filling that niche and being a solid middle-of-the-pack B tier was a really nice breath of fresh air.
Unfortunately, she now sucks too, so. Womp womp, I guess.
People often shoot back with how you don't need to do any of that, because she can do "place thing at loop, zone survivors away", but I have two things to say to that: The first is that people broadly overstate how impactful that is, since her power is designed to be played around in loops, and the second is that I like doing those things. It doesn't matter in this context if she has less skilful elements too.
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@Raptorrotas said:
It doesnt matter if the other survivors are alive or not, you're still supposed to open an exit and leave.
The trial doesnt end if half the survivors are dead. They're not a team that loses if theres more dead than alive. Theyre 4 individual contestants thrown into the same trial, regardless what the community thinks.
THe whole 2 survivors refusing to do their stuff because the hatch is a lazy way out should've been patched way earlier. Damn vultures waiting for each other to die first.
I think the issue is less that survivors in this scenario think hatch is the better option, and more that completing the generators isn't an option at all.
If there's no chance at all of actually finishing your objective, what incentive do players have to engage with it, especially when they could at least attempt to stealth it out and play for hatch? Even removing hatch won't fix that problem, it'd still be impossible for those players to finish gens.
I'm not saying they should be able to, mind, but that is the core of the problem. There's no reason for players to stay engaged with the game in those scenarios.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963579#Comment_3963579
Question for you: Did your anti-slugging suggestion give survivors a basekit unbreakable, in situations where the killer was literally unable to hook the survivor?
This is a YES or NO question.
Alright, man, I gave it a shot. You do you.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963573#Comment_3963573
You still gave survivors basekit unbreakable, even when the survivors forced the killer to slug. And therefore you were still punishing killers for slugging, even when the survivors forced the killer to slug.
The fact that your post talked about slugging extensively, doesn't change the fact that you still gave survivors the basekit unbreakable.
Again, you're just relitigating that you disagree with me.
The point is that "if survivors need to hide sometimes, killers need to slug sometimes" isn't a gotcha when almost everyone - including the people you disagree with - will just answer "yes, true".
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963566#Comment_3963566
Your suggestion gave survivors unbreakable, even when the survivors forced the killer to slug.
That post talks extensively about how sometimes killers need to slug, and attempts to provide a way forward that still preserves their ability to do it.
You disagreeing with the idea doesn't change that.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963545#Comment_3963545
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SWVWJ4WUNLRY/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/R29CZB4I02A4/image.png
You literally suggested an anti-slugging mechanic, that gave survivors a basekit unbreakable, even if the survivors forced the killer to slug.
Almost!
I suggested an anti-slugging mechanic that would allow survivors to get themselves up off the ground, but that was specifically designed to still allow the killer to slug people when the survivors forced it. I even put something in that post for people doing unhookable builds, just to make absolutely certain the killer still had answers to these kinds of situations.
What you're doing here is acting like because you disagreed with the idea, that means I wanted to punish the killer for making the correct play and slugging. That's not what actually happened, though; as I said in my previous post here, what happened is that I talked about anti-slugging while acknowledging that sometimes the killer needs to slug.
You're reinforcing my point, here.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963159#Comment_3963159
"The correct play of hiding"? So if killers do "the correct play of slugging", they shouldn't be punished?
Almost every time any anti-slug is talked about, the person speaking acknowledges that sometimes the killer needs to slug. Very few people argue otherwise.
So… yes. There are circumstances where the correct play is hiding, there are circumstances where the correct play is slugging, and players broadly speaking shouldn't be punished for either.
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While you're not wrong, this situation does mean the game kinda grinds to a halt and nothing happens. If possible, it would be a good idea to try and make sure all three players are still engaged.
I've pitched before that the hatch should spawn, but not open, with two survivors left alive. Ideally this would mean the two survivors are moving around to try and find that hatch, then moving around to chests to try and find a key, or something. With a few tweaks to make sure people bringing a key don't guarantee the last two escaping (something like the hatch closing again and respawning somewhere else after it's used) and to make sure the killer can't just camp the hatch for the same outcome as now (making it invisible to them until it's open, for example), I think that'd help make the 2v1 a bit more engaging.
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@IlliterateGenocide said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962654#Comment_3962654
i agree on your first two points (other then her walking animation needs another cycle) but her power has never been engaging. even the second version.
I disagree, I think it's always been pretty engaging to dodge the drone's beams. Hell, it's engaging to do that now, you just don't really need to anymore.
The only really unengaging thing about her is her throwing drones down at loops to force you to run away, and even that's not as potent as it is on other killers.
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@Rookie1978 said:
i genuinely don't understand how skull merchant can even BE your favorite killer, everything from her weird mishmash lore to her fortnite skin design to her obnoxious power was an abject failure
she literally has no redeeming qualities. this game has produced a lot of really great original killer ideas, but holy ######### skull merchat was a flop in every way possible. the devs have 3 options
- keep the character in the game as-is perma gutted and nerfed into the ######### floor so nobody plays her and nobody has to be reminded she exists
- actively just ######### remove the character and refund everyone in auric cells
- completely reformat every single facet of the killer to the point where they're basically just making a new one
since 2 is out of the question by default and 3 is too much work we can realistically only expect 1, but i think 3 is the best case scenario if bhvr can ever spare the resources. i don't count any health update to the game as a health update until they remove the festering blot that is skull merchant by perma killswitching her or replacing her with a competent killer concept
i just cant believe the same game that brought me original killers i love so dearly like unknown and houndmaster also somehow produced skull merchant, and bhvr at this point is also aware of both her unpopularity and design flaws
who knows what could happen
It's about as simple as the fact that her lore has always been fine, her visual design has always been fine, and her second power design was a pretty reasonable success. Flawed, in a few important ways, but easily fixable and pretty engaging to play as and against.
There's no grand conspiracy or something, people just feel differently to you.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961665#Comment_3961665
The only thing that makes Self Care unviable is because the LARGE majority of people who use it inefficiently. Being able to self reset (at a decent speed at that) can allow you to go for a save solo and in some cases get out of there safely due to the unhook speed of Desperate Measures allowing the person that was just unhooked to take a hit (whereas usually its a trade).
This allows the other 2 survivors to be on gens, and lets say the killer leaves and decides to chase one of them off, you have the healing perks to also quickly reset your teammate.
Sure, if you run Self Care with either Botany Knowledge or Desperate Measures (at full stacks), it's an acceptably slow and flexible self heal.
My point is, that doesn't make it crazy good or insane, it just makes it workable. Imagine the same scenario, but you can use a medkit to heal either noticeably faster or passively, or only needing to run to the basement to heal in under half the time it'd take otherwise, or hopping in a locker for only eight seconds.
That's not even counting other strong healing scenarios, like Resurgence allowing you to get back into the action safely extremely quickly or Clean Break letting you spend even less time to do gens while getting healed.Those are all just flat out faster than running Self Care with its supporting perks. The same number of loadout slots can grant you SIGNIFICANTLY better outcomes, because while Self Care can be worthwhile, it's also among the weakest dedicated setups for self healing— there are other ways of being able to self-reset and most of them are just flat out better in every way.
The only thing Self-Care has is that it's more repeatable than medkits, and more flexible than anything else. A really slim edge compared to the ways it doesn't stack up. -
I tend to buy all the new stuff just for the sake of having it, but in this instance I'm a fan of the license and I think these perks don't look nearly as bad as everyone else does.
Rick's party pallet perk is pretty bad, but otherwise there's stuff you can do with all of these. I am hoping a few get buffed before live, though.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961647#Comment_3961647
You could make an argument for such before the recent buff to Desperate Measures, but with it? Healing builds are actually insane.
Healing builds in general, absolutely, but not Self Care. It's better than Botany if everyone's injured, but I feel like it's still not that good even then and it definitely isn't for only one or two injured survivors.
I'd absolutely buy "viable" and even "worth running", but compared to the stuff you can do with Medkits, or Resurgence, or Strength in Shadows, or any combination thereof, I wouldn't call Self Care insane in any build.
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…Damn, that's a lot of Self Care, I feel like I rarely see that perk in particular.
I wouldn't be too worried about Self Care builds, they're among the weakest healing builds you can bring.
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Honestly, I think running Leverage alongside GoP is both overkill and kinda counter-intuitive.
The whole idea of Gift of Pain is that the survivors choose between staying injured, or spending extra time on the heal and the generators after the fact. It's my opinion that staying injured is actually the less useful effect, barring playing stealth killers like Wraith, so I'd rather they heal through the Mangled because I'd get the more impactful effect that way.
If you really want survivors to stay injured, I'd say the combo is good, but I personally think the punishment for healing up is stronger.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959309#Comment_3959309
My issue isn't that the perk is unhealthy, it's not.
My issue is that BHVR said one thing, meant another, and hid that they weren't changing it back from us while we all believed they would. If they are willing to hide the Deja Vu thing from us, what else are they hiding? How can we trust the Devs if they lie about reverting a change once another change happens?I really don't see why this would be considered "hiding information" or "lying" when the much less concerning and much more understandable "didn't consider it worth speaking on" fits just as well.
This isn't exactly a big pressing issue they need to address, it's just a perk that has been trucking away without being problematic or controversial in any way. With so many other, actually pressing issues, why bother taking the time to vocally state one way or the other about changing Deja Vu back?
Just seems like a waste of effort to me more than it seems like they're actively hiding something by not saying something.
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@Flopkween said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959616#Comment_3959616
They are definitely decent and I could see some builds with them.
Michonne's perks are fine and definitely the strongest out of the two. Rick's perks could use less restrictions I think.
Apocalyptic Ingenuity could definitely be reduced to 1 chest to activate.
Come and get me doesn't need the crouch and idle condition to activate and maybe could use more time
Teamwork: Toughen up seems too niche. I don't think people are blinding or stunning the killer while your by a them often. And it seems to be used for pallets saves and flashlight saves but I think that's also niche.
I could see the crouch and idle condition removed for sure, I honestly didn't even really consider that a condition because I don't feel it makes much of a difference- which, to be fair, is a good reason to nix it for simplicity.
Overall though I really feel those perks only outright require you to do one thing, and it just looks more complicated than it is because the perk card has to include all the details about how big the range is and how long the interactions take, etc.
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I don't think the conditions on these perks are all that crazy, they just kinda look it on paper. Going through them in the order they're written on the official patch notes to simplify the language, we have…
- Open two chests, get the ability to make a party pallet
- Unhook someone, press a button to make them stealthy and draw aggo on you
- Someone else stuns/blinds the killer close to you, then you're stealthy
- Heal someone, then gain the ability to reposition yourself if you're slugged (this one is a little more complex tbf)
- Charge by being in the terror radius, then stun the killer by vaulting close to them
- Stun/blind the killer, nearby survivors get Endurance and aura read
None of these are actually that insane save for maybe Conviction, it's really just one condition that has to be written out fairly longform to convey every part of it. None of those distances are really extra conditions, they just define the perk's range, nothing more.
I think they look pretty neat, I don't think any of these are meta-defining but they're certainly not bad.
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@Toybasher said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959396#Comment_3959396
My issue is, looking at the raw stats and value changes, it doesn't make yellow bottles more appealing, it just makes playing clown, period, less appealing.
I did make that comment before we could see the value changes :P
Now that I've seen them, though, I could live with the Hindered percentage change but I'm concerned about how much less time it lingers for. I could see that being a problem for him.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959202#Comment_3959202
Game sense involves the game itself, and REASONABLE predictions that can be made. People might use game sense to predict where the players spawned in a game, or where the generators/pallets/windows/hooks/hatch/totems are, because it turns out the game doesn't completely randomize where they are located, and a player can find patterns in the spawning placements if they have played the game enough.
Game sense can also say things like "I've seen a survivor teammate in chase for over a minute, and now I see their aura because the killer just placed them into the dying state, so I'm using game sense to predict that most (or all) of the pallets in that surrounding area are gone".
But the important thing is game sense is VAGUE PREDICTIONS based on observable information, and/or based on patterns in the game itself (the game itself = not people).
Game sense does not give killers psychic powers. And it's very often misused in places where the killer would need psychic powers in order to actually know what is happening. When a SWF sets up a fog vial ambush, and the killer can't see their target survivor, or hear them, or have scratchmarks, or have aura reading… and the SWF teammate is purposely trying to mislead them by running around the area… then game sense doesn't work anymore. There isn't any information to based guesses off of, because the game took them all away.
And the important thing is that without the fog vial, then game sense might be meaningful, because the killer is allowed to actually see/hear/aura-read, and have observable information to help them figure out where the target survivor is.
…I gotta ask, man, if your position is that game sense as a concept doesn't apply to this situation, why on earth did you START with game sense not existing at all and being a fake term?
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959396#Comment_3959396
They just buffed some underused survivor items to get them used more and didn’t nerf medkits etc because people used them more, they could’ve just buffed the yellow and maybe given them seperate ammo counts. It’s just weird how they nerf things they think killers are using too much to make them use something else rather than just buffing other stuff to give killers more appealing options for variety
Well, yeah, different items aren't part of the same whole.
A killer's power is equivalent to one item, not items in general.
As to the last point, they are buffing the other stuff - they're buffing both Clown's yellow bottles directly, and buffing both bottles by making reloading less of a pain point. The purpose of nerfing the purple bottles proportionally is to make sure Clown doesn't get out of hand, and to make sure that the bottles provide equalised value, not just "killers use it too much so it's being nerfed".
Again, I'm not necessarily saying it's a good idea, I just think the way people are conceptualising it isn't that helpful and is a little bit unfair.
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I'm not necessarily saying the change is a good idea - it depends very heavily on how much lower the number is, so I can't say for sure until I've been on the PTB - but I do think people are being a little uncharitable to the reasoning given.
To me, it didn't read as "You're using the purple bottles too much so we're nerfing them", it read as "the value of Clown's power was weighted too disproportionately towards the purple bottles, so we're evening the value out to make both bottles appealing".
I don't think it's as much about the literal statistical ratio as much as it is evaluating how Clown's power is designed and how the bottles are used or not used. I don't think it's absurd to suggest the yellow bottles require a lot more effort for not that much better reward, so I don't think it's insane to proactively weaken the purple bottles while buffing the yellow ones to avoid things getting out of hand.
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@Wihris said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958716#Comment_3958716
Thank THE ENTITY it isn't a nerf, this perk is one of the best designed in the game and most balanced in my opinion. I feared you would make it have a timer again or gut it like poor Spine Chill or Wake Up. Now we just need a Visionary rework to bring it in line with it.
This is besides the point of your post, I know, but I keep seeing people list Wake Up while talking about perks that were gutted. I don't truly understand why- the last change that perk received was a buff overall.
What makes you say it was gutted?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959135#Comment_3959135
I thought Deja Vu got a temporary repair speed bonus, to help with anti-3-gen?
But we now have an anti-3-gen mechanic in the game, so Deja Vu no longer needs the repair speed bonus?
@LockerLurk said:
Does anyone else remember that Deja Vu's gen speed boost was meant to be temporary until the 3gen fix came?
The 3gen fix has been here for a year. Deja Vu did not lose its gen progression bonus.
Mandy, please explain why? I don't care if you want to give Survivors another perk to help with gens, that's fine, but… why has it not been changed back if it was temporary? Why not tell us if you were keeping it? I don't like this hiding of info.It's not as though the perk's causing any problems, so I imagine it just ended up being not a priority to change it back. I wouldn't if I were in their shoes- it'd just be making a good healthy perk weaker for no reason.
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Elsewhere in the thread, it's clarified that Deja Vu is actually one of the perks being changed due to Maps getting changed, since the two have an interaction.
I'm not sure if that means nothing functionally changes at all or not, but it's on the list because of the item changes, not because it's got a low pickrate.
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@havoc said:
So Executioner and Clown who are already mid tier are getting nerfed???
Nerfing Clown's hindered bottles and Executioner's speed while using judgement is really bad for them. This is more of a nerf to them than a buff which they really didn't need.
Personally I'd be inclined to wait and see for the PTB. Those specific changes are nerfs, but the other changes do look quite nice.
I can't speak to Executioner since I don't play him, but for Clown, faster reload, faster movement speed while reloading, and quicker activation on yellow bottles are all really nice changes. How good Clown is after these changes depends really heavily on the numbers, hypothetically he could be coming out ahead here fairly noticeably.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958824#Comment_3958824
Knight is already a mediocre killer. There is no point in nerfing him just because you can't play against him. He is not even a popular slugger since you kinda have to depend on survivors being incompetent and getting downed by your guards, which almost never happens against decent survivors.
And no, the rest of the killers aren't abused, or aren't anymore. Pig could only bodyblock jigsaw boxes before they made the spawn default be 5, and that's was a good change. But there is NO reason as to why they nerfed the other aspects of her kit further, even though she was already a bad killer.
Pyramid head tunnels survivors who leave the cage's because that's the point of that mechanic, so they are not abusing it, it is working as intended. Also, you have to walk on the trail for him to send you to a cage, so if you really want to get the base BT then you should prioritize not walking on it. Hence why the best players prefer to go down a bit quicker than to step on the trail. Finally, even if the survivors gets sent to a cage, their teammates can still bodyblock them if the Pyramid decides to tunnel. Come on, there is so much the game can hold the survivors hand without them having to have any skill to play the game.
To be fair, Pig's received exactly one direct nerf in over five years, and every other changes she's received has either been a direct buff or an indirect buff (with a few QoL things thrown in here and there too). There's only one aspect of her kit that was nerfed at all in that time frame, the box changes were overall a buff.
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958818#Comment_3958818
6% of 90 is 5.4, so roughly 5.2 seconds.Which doesnt take into account, the free information. Overzealous requires you to find a totem, spend 14 seconds cleansing it, and then only get that boost for as long as you don't get hit. Deja Vu absolutely is better than Overzealous.
A little aside the point, I know, but I wouldn't say Deja Vu is necessarily better than Overzealous, just requires a lot less of the player. If you put Overzealous in the right build, I think it does outperform Deja Vu.
Either way I don't think we need to be scared of this change, since it's reportedly just because of the Map interaction.
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Some interesting stuff that I'd be very excited to test on a PTB here. My only real point of concern based on just this post is… do maps still show generators, and can you still make them show totems? Totem-tracking is currently THE niche that maps have, and I don't think it'd be right to take that away. If anything, it should be part of the map's base effects and not an addon, but I could live with it still being an addon as long as it's still there.
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I think a few perks are rated a little low here, personally- Strength in Shadows should really be in A tier, imo, the downside really isn't significant compared to how fast the heal is and the bonus of the aura read. Hell, I'd put the combo of SiS and Botany in S, it's among the best healing-related combos in the game.
Clean Break is also definitely underrated, passive heals are very strong and all this requires is that you be healing your teammates, which you really should be anyway most times. Being able to spend 1 second on a heal and then you're doing generators is really really powerful, even if the extra health state doesn't come out straight away. I run this perk a lot myself when I play survivor, it's really quite nice to have.
Otherwise I mostly agree, good placements overall. Something to note about Inner Strength that doesn't really change its placement but that is a nice synergy is that if you run it with Overzealous you get a great loop of having a buff while healthy, then being able to heal once you're injured, then setting up the buff again so that you can heal when you're injured… it takes a little knowledge of totems (or a Map, which is what I use) but it's a very nice little synergy.
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I'd definitely support it going up to 4 seconds. With Eyes of Belmont that'd be 6 seconds, which is better but not broken, so it accounts for that too.
I don't think Rapid Response is an outright bad perk, but it is difficult to use with such a short duration. It'd be nice to see it get a little easier to use.
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I'd sooner see the stealth itself buffed, over the dash part— for the reasons already gone over in this thread.
If nothing else, I don't see why Pig shouldn't be allowed to move at full speed while she's crouched, considering she can't attack without standing up or charging her ambush. That'd help her sneak up on survivors, which in the early parts of the game would help her get the ball rolling for her excellent trap pressure a bit easier.
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@Sjady said:
Wait, are we seriously still debating whether the game is balanced? Like, really? We're still asking this question in 2025? Seriously?
So, you think it's balanced to be in a 4v1 situation, especially when they're all in voice chat? That's basically team play, right? Not to mention the countless perks that let survivors recover from downed states, have extra lives, or move faster than the killer... Come on, seriously? 🤡
The game is 1v4, so yes, that part's balanced. At the very least, it's not inherently UNbalanced.
@ topic — I don't know that it is balanced around that small percentage of players, honestly. I've seen more changes geared at helping out people towards the mid range and for solo queue than I have the alternatives.
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Isn't that how it should work? If you'd get X number of cakes spending manually, shouldn't you also get X number of cakes from the bulk spending?
I think I must be missing something here, haha.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957841#Comment_3957841
light tunneling - going after a survivor once after they've been unhooked throughout the game. slightly deviating from the super nice playstyle for one second. different than hard tunneling at 5 gens. why do I have to explain this lmao?
you want definitions, I ask you to define how you want us to play, and you give me the most vague answer possible. "don't play like a dick" from my experience literally every way I play is me playing like a dick. so that doesn't help much
oh and I gotta ask, what about the survivors who are ultra efficient too and split up on gens and are good in chase? I'm sure you have the same attitude towards them and tell them to stop playing like dicks right?
you know, its so funny. your previous comments are basically asking me why I don't want to expand and define anything I'm saying, and ive already say why: because its a waste of time talking to you people. I point out and state why some killers are simply too weak to play in the super wholesome way you want them to, and you just go "nuh uh, just get better skillz" it really does prove that none of you ever had any argument and just want to gaslight players into playing the way you want them to.Can I ask, sincerely, why is it considered "nice" and "wholesome" to simply not tunnel?
Would that not just be playing the game like any other way of playing? Even if you think there's nothing wrong with tunnelling, surely every possible tactic, playstyle, situation, and action covered by "not tunnelling" should have the same neutrality, right?
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If the killer leaves a match in the lobby, the system has to backfill that game with another player, which can cause the resulting match to be much less accurately weighted for their skill level.
Lobby dodging is a problem, adding new features specifically so that people can lobby dodge more is definitely a bad idea.
It could be interesting to see a feature like this for the match result screen after the match, so people can see if they were facing a SWF or just competent solos, but unless they stop you leaving matches in the lobby they can't show you it there without serious downsides.