jesterkind
jesterkind
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I don't know that I'd consider Built to Last good for healing specifically. You definitely can use it that way, but I've always personally felt micromanaging the charges so you actually get full heals to be more trouble than it's worth. You'd get better results just bringing more plentiful heal sources to begin with, I feel like.
I've always felt that perk was best with toolboxes, which is why it's weird they thought to buff it imo.
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If you're willing, I have a couple notes.
- While gen speeds aren't slow right now, there's also only one thing left in the game that makes them too fast for the killer to keep up. If you aren't seeing toolboxes, gen speeds are something your gameplay can affect. Additionally, BHVR made a change recently to benefit killers in this regard, because all survivors spawn together now by default- that's huge for early game pressure.
- A lot of maps recently have been weakened to not have pallets and windows available in extreme abundance. There are some still in the game that are unbalanced, though.
- You're very much allowed and able to tunnel, camp, and slug. You have to play around answers on the survivor side, but in tunnelling's case those answers aren't even all that good for the most part. No sense freaking out about changes that haven't happened yet.
- This is a big one - Shoulder the Burden does not refund hook states, it just shuffles them around. It's not a fourteen hook game, you still have to hook survivors the exact same amount of times overall.
- The rebuilt pallets are fragile pallets, so they break when they're dropped. Significantly weaker, that perk isn't good, don't worry about it.
- You can very much punish the survivors for 3-genning themselves, it's just that now the punishment is you get to win the game more easily, not stall it out.
I'm not saying there's no problems, but most of the things you've listed aren't really all that threatening or concerning in their proper context.
Maybe it's time to take a break for a bit? I take pretty regular breaks from this game when I get frustrated with it, and it's helped me engage with it in a much healthier way overall. -
@Nobody_TM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972415#Comment_3972415
I've got 6 years under my belt as killer myself, I just respectfully disagree thats all. I think with the addition of new items such as the Iri Stamp amongst other things, that in time, people will come to see it my way.
There are definitely things weaker killers are struggling with now and will in the future, and some forms of healing are definitely among them.
Medkits, though, aren't, unless a survivor is dedicating a lot to make them that way. A middle of the pack double-heal, no-speed-increase medkit is very reasonable, as is a single-heal speedy medkit.
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@Nobody_TM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972374#Comment_3972374
I'm sorry thats just not true, and likely comes from the perspective of the modern, stronger killers who are both quick to injure and down with varied and large amounts of built in pressure.
Many standard killers (Single Ability Killers) who do not have the wild kits or power creep elements of modern killers depend on those inches and seconds, and even a modest health kit with standard speed but a lot of charges allows a team to reset at their convenience and individually, out of or in position.
Take Wraith for instance, whose main strength comes through hit and run, or Twins who depend on pressuring injury states. Even with the large power gap between them, I don't think you can honestly say that a decent medkit on 4 survs makes no difference there. Again, we aren't even talking about the high run stuff, just middle of the road decent.
Again, you are suggesting a lot of other perks as work arounds that again, do not directly solve the problem. Their not worthless suggestions, don't get it twisted, but Imagine my tire explodes and I used to just be able to go and get a new tire for my car. Now you've banned tire replacement for cars but constantly try to sell me that a Bike on the grounds that its a vehicle, people can use it to get to work, it has similar locomotion properties, it is technically a vehicle.
It doesn't change the fact that a bike is not a car and I don't want to ride a damn bike.
I don't want to have 3 different perks as a round about solution to a problem that already had a direct solution. I'm not buying YouTube premium for features they hid behind a paywall that were formally free.
Again, in the end though it doesn't matter because the solutions are already there; like I said, if its clear to a killer there's 4 medkits and pressure is impossible due to constant ease of resets, then the killers going to tunnel.
And there's nothing wrong with that lmao.
I am merely suggesting for the sake of SURVIVORS, you may want to consider your stance and go play Trapper for a while and tell me Medkits are meaningless / GoP fixes allFor the record, I mostly play killers like the ones you're talking about. Sadako has been my main killer recently, I've played a fair chunk of Wraith and Clown over the years, I used to be a Trapper main…
Trust me when I tell you that this is not a misguided take born of only looking at a small section of the game. If you're worried about pressure from injuries, medkits without very specific supporting tools aren't actually the issue right now. If you see a lobby full of medkits, sure, that's reason to pause and rethink your perk selections, but you've never needed SPECIFICALLY Franklin's to do it.
There are other individual perks you can run, you don't need to dedicate a whole build. JUST Gift of Pain sufficiently punishes survivors for healing, JUST Sloppy Butcher can push survivors to stay injured longer, JUST Forced Penance makes sure that survivors taking aggro can't heal up quickly, and so on.Sure, you can run combos if you want, but you don't need to. Identify what you're struggling with and there'll certainly be tools to help you— and I'm willing to bet it's rarely actually the existence of medkits, honestly.
Plus, don't forget that stopping survivors from healing/making it slower isn't the only option. You can also lessen the benefit of healing with some specific chase perks as well.Put simply, there isn't a problem that is only solved by Franklin's and other tools can't address. There's nothing related specifically to medkits that requires that one specific perk to counter which you don't have other answers for. At worst you just have to get a bit creative, which is certainly a mild annoyance but not a balance problem.
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972286#Comment_3972286
Ryan, Honestly,
Whomever calls the shots on gameplay mechanics ought to have known better than to ever add something like unlimited use fog vials to the base game. You guys have really been pumping up the annoyance factor on playing the killer role, and you can't do that ad infinitum. If you keep making the killer role suckier and suckier to play, you guys are going to hit a wall where folks start hanging up playing the killer role en masse. Please, kindly, stop.
I don't know that them being unlimited use is the problem, that's just a neat twist that gives them an edge over other items when you're deciding what to use.
If there's an issue with fog vials it'll be in what they do, not necessarily how often you can use them. An obnoxious and/or overpowered effect is still a problem even if you can only use it once- whatever problems exist I'd rather they be balanced around the infinite use, that'd be much more interesting and engaging for everyone.
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I do hope they revisit that perk at some point in the future and give it a new secondary effect. It really does need one to be useful, but it also needs a way healthier one than the two it's had in the past.
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@Nobody_TM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972244#Comment_3972244
A strong medkit with multiple heals removes the pressure that injury states typically apply. If even two survivors can heal twice by themselves in a game, and the other two once, yes, that does incentivize tunneling because dropping chase or spreading damage is meaningless.
Decent pressure is one surv in chase, one on a gen, and two healing (optimally each other). The two healing may be out of position and have travel time as well, both before and after hook/unhooking.
Add in Decent Medkits and you can throw this out the window; we aren't even talking about the stronger side of things.
Sloppy is likewise not a meaningful solution given mangled was also nerfed to a temp condition, and Vigil generally is more common than ever for it. The optimal strat is just don't heal through sloppy, work a gen and then heal. If you wana talk leverage or something you're asking me to dedicate half my perks to a "soft counter" medkits.
Whats easier, losing half or more of my perks to bad slowdown effects that won't solve the problem (mangled affects time not total medkit use anyway) or just tunneling the weak link till their dead / cycling hooks relentlessly?
Franklins has always been healthy, even back when it destroyed items. The perk has likely been nerfed to forgo anymore spaghetti code problems (like the last time with Cenobites Box / Nemi's Syringes / Weskers CANS).
It isn't nessisary to win but thats the point; Survivor Mains will bear the brunt of that when they begin to use the glut of medkits they aquired in the event to trivialize pressure, which will bring tunneling to back to the highs not since seen with Release CoH BOONERS.Pressure from injuries only becomes meaningless if the self heals are very fast, which is why the CoH peak was such a problem. That perk combined with the much stronger medkits at the time meant that realistically speaking, survivors would have multiple sub-10 second self-heals in a match, which is crazy powerful.
Now don't get me wrong, medkits are still very powerful, but you can't have insanely fast AND insanely numerous heals. You have to pick one or the other, and you have to dedicate far more of your build to get either.
Regular, unmodified medkits aren't an issue. You don't need to be scared of a single 24 second heal, and you don't need to be scared of two either if they only bring charge addons. That survivor's still investing time to heal.
They get scarier with a few tools added in, Botany being a very powerful supporting perk, but to get anything close to old CoH meta a survivor would have to dedicate a huge chunk of their build… which means they'll lack chase, info, gen speed, anti-tunnel, whatever. How much of the loadout it takes to get a crazy effect is relevant to the balance discussion, because it makes a survivor's build very fragile and inflexible.If you're worried about it, there are also good anti-perks to pick from. Mangled being on a timer is fairly annoying and Vigil is popular right now, so let's say that's off the table- you still have something like Leverage to convince them to stay injured or Gift of Pain to outright punish them for healing, you still have Coulrophobia if you're playing a killer with a decent terror radius, you have stuff like Deathbound and Forced Penance as sort of sideways anti-heal perks… and you do still have Franklin's.
The time it takes them to get the medkit again adds to the overall heal time. It's not as good, but it still exists- in my opinion it isn't worth running because it was only barely worth running if you really, really wanted survivors not to be allowed to use their builds with the secondary effect, but if all you want is to make sure healing takes a time investment, it does still do that. -
Oh damn, that is a great addition. This alongside a more comprehensive tutorial would be a real boost to the onboarding this game has, honestly.
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Personally I find this objection a little misguided. For the record, I do think Franklin's needs an extra effect to be worth running and it's a shame we didn't get a healthier one than the one it had before, but I really think this notion about strong items being uncounterable now is unfounded.
For starters, there are only two strong items to begin with, and one of them just flat out wasn't countered by Franklin's anyway. A toolbox (at least a generator toolbox, sabotage toolboxes were affected) will almost certainly be emptied by the time you hit that person with Franklin's unless you're lucky enough to chase the only toolbox user in the game before they get a chance to touch a gen, which isn't that likely.
That leaves only medkits actually being countered by Franklin's and while it was useful at that in ways it isn't now… I don't know that you really need to freak out about medkits now. Franklin's already didn't counter the strongest part of medkits, the syringes, unless you got lucky enough for the item to FULLY drain before it's picked up, and the other strongest healing tools aren't related to medkits at all.Other antiheal that you'd bring for the actually strong tools (stuff like Gift of Pain, Leverage, even regular Mangled) are still going to work just fine. Medkits will continue to be what they were before the Franklin's nerf: strong, worth bringing, and reliable, but not insanely scary for the killer without other tools that aren't affected by Franklin's anyway.
This kinda leaves us in a position where Franklin's didn't actually do that much for one of the two things you'd want to bring it for, and the one thing it does affect it only affects the less scary versions of it. I don't think that really changes much for killer overall.
The alternative is not exclusively to tunnel either, btw. If you immediately leap to that, you were probably inclined to tunnel at the slightest provocation anyway.
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Honestly any cosplays I'd want I'd rather see as legendary skins or their own character, so if the skins are going to be themed, I'd maybe suggest doing some post-apocalypse designs for a few characters. Keeps the theme, while keeping open the option for legendary skins down the line.
That said, if we are doing cosplays and that's all we can get, someone should be Clementine. Maybe Meg?
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971209#Comment_3971209
Wraith, Sadako, Myers, Ghostface, Pig, Legion. These are for sure.
Plague without power and even Oni before his first hits are M1 too, although their kits compensate their lack of anti-loop in the start of the match.
Freddy/Clown/Doctor are quite complicated to say they are M1 in the same way the first ones since they have a consistent anti-loop power, even if not the strongest in the game.
When people want to address that "M1 killers struggles against x" its because the killers in the first group struggles against some situations that killers with anti-loop power struggles less, like bodyblocks, some structures or some perks and items.
Wraith and Pig undeniably have a chase power. How strong they are would be besides the point here, they just have one.
For the others, there's no reason why Freddy/Clown/Doctor would be complicated. Just like Wraith and just like Spirit, they have a power that helps them secure M1s instead of doing damage directly. They're just M1 killers, it only seems complicated because you're working backwards from wanting to define M1 killers as the ones who struggle with loops and bodyblocking and the like.
Again, my point is that the group of killers you're drawing a circle around here aren't defined by being M1-focused. They're defined by struggling with specific things. Other killers who are also M1-focused don't struggle with those things, so if you want to make this a cohesive group, it should use a term that actually gets at the heart of the problem and not a term that heavily implies it should also apply to some of the strongest killers in the game.
In my opinion, anyway. This is hardly critically important but I do firmly believe it. -
@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971063#Comment_3971063
Well, then you are making a confusion. Most of the time when people say "M1 killer" they aren't meaning they are "all the weak killers", but rather they are killers who rely on basic attack to get hits without any chase power to help them. We could start saying "killers who rely on basic attack to get hits without any chase power to help them in chases" but i prefer saying M1 killers.
Again, saying Singularity, Pinhead or Spirit are M1 killers are kinda of a stretch because this term - M1 - usually refers to killers without anti-loop. If Wraith could hit survivors without uncloacking he wouldn't be an M1 killer, because his power would make him so fast that he wouldn't rely only on the 4.6m/s speed to get hits on most of the tiles.
Not all weak killers are M1 but all M1 are quite weak because of how their power works, fundamentally. Trickster is a M2, isn't strong and his problem doesn't come from being a M1 killer. Calling Trickster a M1 killer just because he is weak doesn't make sense as he has a power to get downs, even if not a strong one.
Fundamentally, "killers who rely on basic attack to get hits without any chase power to help them in chases" have a common core of issues, that why people call them M1.
I mean, who actually fits that definition?
Wraith, Clown, Doctor, Freddy, Dredge, and arguably Myers all do not fit this definition because while they rely on basic attacks to get hits, they do have chase powers to help them in chase, and they're all killers typically considered M1 killers in these conversations - at least, most of them are, I'm admittedly not sure how people typically classify Dredge.
It does cover Trapper at least, and I'd be reasonably confident saying it covers Sadako, but beyond that, it kinda shorts out. Hag could be thrown on the pile but that's only three killers, not nearly as many as people are usually implying.Working backwards from needing to define M1 killers in a way that highlights their weakness causes issues like this. It's just not actually all that helpful as a framing device.
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@Memesis said:
Yes it does. M1 killers are at the mercy of a survivor utilizing their resources and playing them correctly, and the RNG of pallet spawns. They can't do anything about god pallets and windows. This results in longer chases, which results in less pressure and uncontested gen progression, which results in more losses. M1 killers with niche and stealth focused powers are absolutely inherently weaker than killers with consistent anti-loop powers.
Again, though. A killer whose power only exists to get easier M1s was the third best killer in the game for years, and is currently very strong.
There's no reason to consider someone like Wraith an M1 killer but Spirit not. The only definitions of M1 killer that could possibly include Wraith but not Spirit are definitions that are focused on weakness, not on design, and that's recursive. It's just saying these are weak killers because they're weak, you might as well cut out the middle man and just say weak killers to begin with.
Some M1 killers are very good. Some are weaker and unable to deal with strong resources well. Some are in the middle.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971063#Comment_3971063
This is absurd, its like asking people to stop saying spiders are bugs because technically they arent. Yes techniclaly they are not but so many people already use the term and everyone knows what they mean when they use it that changing it is neither practical nor necesary. All the people here seem to have a consensus on m1 refering to bad killers at looping, you see how most of us could agree on the same killer being in the category, there is no change of term needed.
Nothing wrong with attempting to be more accurate for a better understanding of the game, either way.
I think it's more interesting to think about killers in terms of design, and it's also more accurate. Either way, it's just a pet peeve of mine that everyone's accepted understanding of "M1 killer" has nothing to do with the words they're using.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970983#Comment_3970983
No, i'm not. They aren't weak because they are "M1 killers", they are weak because they lack anti-loop and need to play around the loops to get hit with basic attacks. That is what make them M1. And because they lack anti-loop, they struggle against experienced survivors and organized teams, specially without chase perks. Therefore, they are weak.
Sorry, but you are creating a discussion that never existed in the community as is quite clear who are M1 killers and who is not. I don't know if you are new to DBD or not but this title of "M1 Killers" come from a long time ago, where most of the roster were M1. I think that these kind of speech that "M1 killers aren't weak, look at Singularity or Spirit" doesn't help nothing in game balance or quality of life, since not having a power that deals damage is not enough to classify a killer as a M1 killer.
I'm not new in the least, I just disagree with the commonly cited use of the term. I don't think it's helpful and I think we'd be on much firmer ground discussing the game if this term weren't used this way.
The fact of the matter is, people consistently use "M1 killer" as a stand-in for "weak killer", often either ignoring killers that are equally M1 focused but very good or citing killers that have a damaging M2 attack.
My point is this: If the term is going to be "M1 killer", it should be used to define something about the killer's power. If the meaning is going to be "weak killer", the term used should reflect that more accurately.Or, TL;DR, if what you mean is "weak killer" just say that. Why bother with the misleading term?
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971011#Comment_3971011
Think that same logic applies to Hag?
I mentioned Hag in the post.
Hag's arguable in either direction, but I'd personally lean towards M1 for her. If you whiff a blink attack, there's a fatigue before you can do stuff again, similar to whiffing a chainsaw sprint or using your last blighted rush, but you don't whiff a teleport the same way you don't whiff an uncloak or exiting Spirit's phase ability. I'm pretty sure there's no endlag on teleport at all, just a brief moment to regain control of your character.
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@LordGlint said:
Keep in mind, Nurse's blink attacks use to be classified as a basic attack. Classifying Spirit as an M1 killer just because BHVR hasn't changed her phase lunge a "special attack" is stretching it.
The point isn't necessarily literally basic attack/special attack, it's how the power is designed to aid in damage.
Nurse is admittedly kind of a unique case, as she is in many ways, but I do think she works as an M2 killer in this context because using her power incurs a fatigue/cooldown. That puts it more in line with stuff like a Demo lunge or a Blight rush or a Hillbilly dash, y'know? It's a power that deals damage with specific constraints as opposed to a power that speeds her up for a regular basic attack or some such, the way killers like Wraith, Spirit, Clown, etc have.
She's definitely weird either way though.
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@Rickprado said:
For the sake of this conversation, I define M1 killer as "A killer whose downs come exclusively from basic attacks, and whose power exists to make that easier". This also includes killers whose powers can injure but can't down, like Legion and Trapper.
When people say "M1 killers are weak" most of the time they are referring to killer that have no power to get downs quickly, like Wraith, Sadako, Ghostface, Trapper, Legion. Although some of these can use their powers to injure or try some tricks on chase, most of the time they rely on the 4.6m/s speed and basic attacks to down survivors. Pig Ambush is considered by many too counterable or weak to rely on, so she is considered a M1 killer too. Demogorgon is considered by most an M2 killer since his power have enough potential to end chases consistently.
Singularity, Pinhead, Houndmaster, Spirit ARE NOT considered M1 killers by most of the community because their powers DO HAVE some components that help them get downs, even if they injure with a basic attack. Lets take Houndmaster as example: she injures most of the time with basic attacks. But her power - the dog - can hold people enough time to get a hit. So, even if she relies on basic attacks she cannot be considered a M1 killer, as her power give enough potential to end chases quickly, deny looping, counter bodyblocks, etc. If she relied only on the 4.6m/s to hurt/down survivors, her gameplay and overall strength would be much different.
The problem with the real M1 killers is that against people who are good they have little to no chase power, making their chases longer.
Lets take the shack loop as example. Without Bamboozle, Wraith, Legion and Sadako will struggle a lot to get a down, sometimes even when the pallet is not there anymore. They need to rely more on mindgames and survivor mistakes to get downs than killers with chase powers like the Unknown, Huntress or even Vecna.
Dead Dawg Saloon is classic for this: M1 killers without Bamboozle should not commit chases at the main building or their risk lose their game without doing a single hook stage. I have seen many killers DC after committing to chases in the main build, unaware of how strong that build was against weaker killers.
Sorry but talking like Spirit and the Ghostface or Wraith are in the same situation is not fair. These M1 killers - the real ones - are in a very bad situation against experienced survivors, since they struggle to get downs. They might not change since the root of the problem is their power design, which is simple but weak. I hope at least BHVR make some perks to help them in chase and small changes to make them stronger and viable in harder matches.
I did address this at the end of the post. You're falling into recursive logic here - These killers are weak because they're M1 killers, and they're M1 killers because they're weak, and so on and so forth.
What you're describing is just a killer that is weak. Their powers are supposed to help them, but they struggle. They're designed to work such that their power makes getting M1s easier, but that doesn't always pan out. There's no reason to falsely invoke their power design by calling out "M1" when other killers who are M1 focused do just fine.
Genuinely, saying "these killers aren't M1 killers because their powers help them get hits" is something I just can't get behind. That should be what M1 killer means, if the definition is based on anything other than just how good the killer is. The split, if we're using the term "M1 killer", should be between killers whose damage comes from basic attacks and killers whose damage at least can come from something else.
If all you want to convey is killers who struggle to get hits at basic tiles… they're just weak. It's not because they damage with an M1, because other killers who also damage with an M1 don't struggle at these tiles. -
In scenarios like that, it'll mostly be because the survivors only finished one generator, but they had other generators with some progress made too, meaning finishing those ones takes less time after the first one pops.
Broadly speaking, one of the best things you can do is make sure you have information. The biggest timesink that killer players fall into without realising it is that they spend too long looking for survivors, with the second biggest being spending too much time kicking generators.
Someone else has already mentioned it, but if you have the Resident Evil chapter (or just Nemesis as a killer), the perk Lethal Pursuer is great for giving you a fast start, which cuts down on how much generator repair survivors have before you finish your first chase. Very good perk, I highly recommend it.
Other good info perks can include Barbecue & Chili (Leatherface perk), Friends Til The End (Chucky perk), and Alien Instinct (Xenomorph perk). These all give you information after a hook, and BBQ can give you info on all three other players, letting you choose the best one to chase. I also quite like Gearhead (Deathslinger perk) but that one can take a lot of paying attention to use well.Other than that, one thing you should remember is that you gain in power as the match goes on. At the start of the match, you're at your weakest- survivors have nothing to do but gens, and they've got every pallet still standing. By the last generator, though, you've probably pushed them off gens multiple times and they have far fewer resources to work with- so don't panic too much if you get a rough start.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970928#Comment_3970928
I did also say out of power options. Decent survivors will still dominate a wraith because its just spam vault window to force uncloak.
It's still a definition that revolves entirely around how good the killer is, though, that's my main point.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970916#Comment_3970916
weak killer is not really it, you need to emphasise the principle difference - killers using (mid)ranged attacks / dashes to get into the position for hit / cut corners or killers relying on movement speed diff and m1 as main chase instrument.
i think the classification should also make a distinction on whether or not the killer can counter shift+w alongside looping. f/e kaneki by definition is an m1/walking killer except his power deletes shift+w from the picture, pretty much balancing out the massive weakness, assuming of course you arent playing for intentional gamedesign scamper kidnap
Sure, that could make sense, I could see that.
Though I don't see Kaneki as the exception here, he just doesn't rely on walking to catch up and get hits. He just wouldn't be a walking killer by this definition.
That or he'd be a really strong one, depending on how you define it, I think. -
@Brimp said:
I consider M1 killers to be ones that primarily down with M1 but have poor mobility/out of power options like Legion, Clown Wraith, Pig weak for one simple thing. Exhaustion. Certain exhaustion perks and funnily enough the most common ones like dramaturgy, sprint burst and lithe cause them to be unbearable to play as because no matter what you spend 15-20 seconds just catching back up or have them use it to get to a main building.
I still remember in the Sadako PTB I played one normal game and the first game was just exhaustion pre drop that I could do nothing about.Isn't that still just defining them by the fact that they're weak instead of how their power is designed? It still leaves open the fact that killers who are designed the exact same way as Wraith, Spirit specifically, are not considered M1 killers by this definition.
Wraith can catch up to Exhaustion, too, though that's besides the point.It still feels like you could just say "weak killers" and be more accurate. Maybe "immobile killers" in this context, too. It doesn't have to invoke the way they're designed but also do it kinda wrong.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
ru community uses the term "walking killer" as in "killer relying on 0.6 movement speed difference and m1 lunge"
I could see that being more useful as a term.
I'd still sooner just suggest people say "weak killer" if that's all they mean, though.
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I'd say it's somewhere in between. Before the survivor HUD, yeah, that perk was absolutely a must-run, but I do believe that feature provides enough info that you don't need Kindred anymore.
Kindred's value is twofold. It tells you if the killer's camping (and a little bit whether they're coming for you specifically), and it tells you if your teammates are going for the save. In the latter case, if the answer is "no", it lets you peel off to go save before risking that person hitting second stage, which is pretty big- it's not the only perk that does this, but it is a good one for it.
I'd say the perk is definitely better if your teammates are all running it, but it's not required for the perk to provide noticeable value. It's a damn good solo queue perk either way, but I personally haven't run it much since the survivor HUD was added.
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@squbax said:
Saying pig is an m2 killer because she has that joke of an attack that is her dash is like saying springtrap is an m1 if you never use his ace. Personally I think of m1 killers as killers who have to respect traditional looping, meaning a safe pallet will always be safe and if a survivor is using checkspots/measuring well their distance the killer has no agency at the loop. This way killers that can injury with m1 but their power makes them have agency at loops like spirit and singularity are not m1s, but killers like pig or legion which rely on thr survivor being bad or having no resources to get a down are m1 killers.
The point of bringing up Pig in this context is to highlight that people have started making the strength of a killer more of an important factor in whether they're considered an M1 killer than how the power is actually designed.
Pig is not a killer whose power has no way of damaging survivors directly. She has Ambush. It's not very good, but it's there, which means… she's an M2 killer, just one whose M2 isn't very good.
I also think defining it by how they play at loops instead of how their power is designed to play around loops leans into that recursive definition I laid out in the post. Singularity and Spirit have a power designed to help them land M1s, not a power that itself damages with an M2. I laid out how similar Spirit is to Wraith in this regard, and people usually consider Wraith an M1 killer.
Pig and Legion don't have the same power design. Legion can only injure, meaning their power still forces them to land basic attacks and only exists to make downing that way easier, but Pig has a direct-damage ability on M2.(Though again, I personally find "Hybrid" a useful term for Pig specifically, same as Demogorgon and arguably killers like Nemesis/Pyramid Head/Springtrap. They're sort of designed to use both at different times, as opposed to a killer like Huntress or Hillbilly that are designed to favour their M2s noticeably.)
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It's because Maps (the item) don't track objects anymore, so the perk's being updated to reflect that. It isn't actually changing, just its interaction with that item.
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Probably an unpopular pick but I'd honestly kinda say Trapper.
With a few slight basekit tweaks and a hefty, extensive addon rework I'd say Trapper would be elevated to just being a low tier. He'd be much more capable of engaging with the game on a basic level, and while he wouldn't be strong he'd be fine.
A couple killers could use addon changes though, and not just for strength reasons. Wraith could use the lower rarities of his scaling sets being reworked because there's no reason to run them, Nemesis could do with some reworks because most of his addons fit in the "functional and decent but boring" camp, maybe a few reworks here and there for Sadako. I wouldn't say too many need what happened to Pyramid Head though- his addons were always notoriously terrible and the only other killer to even come close was pre-rework Freddy.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969963#Comment_3969963
Why is the solution always giving survivors more free basekit perks? I play survivor half the time and even I think this is ridiculous. This whole thing about slugging being a major problem is also ridiculous.
If you get slugged and nobody comes to pick you up, that’s a problem with your teammates, not the killer. If two or three people are getting slugged at a time because they are getting downed immediately in chase, that’s a skill issue on the survivor team. Pick up your teammates when they are down and last more than 5 seconds in chase. Problem solved.Serious answer: Because in previous years, especially earlier on in the game's lifespan, BHVR's philosophy was to give survivors (and killers, tbf) perks to deal with specific actions. Maybe they didn't realise how problematic some of these things would be, maybe it was something else, but there are a bunch of effects already in the game that help to answer various scenarios - if you're discussing a problematic scenario, and it's one of the ones that has a counter-perk, it does make sense for most people's first thought to be "well just use this effect, it already exists".
Borrowed Time existed to protect people after they're unhooked. When discussing how a lack of that protection is a big problem, it's natural to look to the Borrowed Time effect— in my opinion it wasn't the best choice, but it still made sense as something to at least consider.
Slugging isn't the same as tunnelling because it has legitimate use cases, but the same principle applies. If we're looking at problematic slugging - the killer downing everyone before picking anyone up, specific killers effectively being able to win the match off one power activation, and killers maliciously bleeding everyone out - it still makes sense to look at the currently existing anti-slug effects.
It's just a trickier needle to thread, because you do still have to leave room for legitimate slugging. -
@thrawn3054 said:
Imo it's a nerf because it's weaker in the scenario you need it most. It's better if the majority of the team is alive but at that point it's just a win more kind of perk. I'm not saying it's terrible as it still has it's uses but it's definitely overall weaker imo.
I'd disagree, upwards of two survivors including you being alive isn't necessarily a win-more scenario. I've been using the perk myself a fair amount recently and there have been a fair few down-to-the-wire situations where not being able to get the gate open that quickly would've left the killer able to down someone.
Everyone being alive doesn't mean they're in a great position, injured and on death hook is a situation where you want the gate open ASAP so the killer has less chance to chase you down and finish the job.
It's definitely a buff overall.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969958#Comment_3969958
Gasp! People don't want to play with someone who spends two minutes only to play the entire game with one health state? All for extremely situational aura reading?
You're kinda proving the point that people would use this system to lobby dodge, here. Even if you think it's justified, that's still a problem.
To reference your other post, that'd be why we can't have nice things.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
Although it's overall still a bit better than the previous 25% version (as long as you're not the last survivor), the problem is it still FEELS terrible knowing the reason it got nerfed was because of Sole Survivor (which is a problematic perk) and the selfish playstyles that it enables. It would've been much better to just have Wake Up deactivate completely when being the final survivor and then left it at 50% in all other scenarios.
With the 12.5% stacking system, the nerf didn't just target selfish survivors, it ALSO targeted situations with 2 or 3 survivors left when that was never the issue. Why is it 37.5% with 3 survivors left, or 25% with 2 survivors left, and not 50%? There's no good reason for it and that's why the change got such negative feedback, at least from me.
As I've already mentioned, it's poor framing to consider that a nerf. Remember, it's still a buff compared to the actual version we used to have in the main game. It wasn't nerfed, it received a different buff.
As an aside I also feel it's reductive to say the change happened solely because of Sole Survivor, pun not intended. The devs' stated goal of wanting it to stand in its intended niche better would apply either way.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
wake up is better in hairy, somewhat even matches but wake up was traditionally always a perk to take for when matches go belly up. or yknow...average solo q games.
no amount of buffs matter when the reason you take it is to have a sliver of hope in hopeless 5 gen slaughters. not everyone wants to just run up to the killer and abandon
Wouldn't Sole Survivor have always been the better perk for that? I don't know that +25% makes that much difference in 1v1 scenarios.
I do grant that's the one use case where it's weaker, but I firmly believe it getting noticeably stronger basically everywhere else outweighs that. I can understand not liking its new use case as much, but the perk's still noticeably stronger overall.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969920#Comment_3969920
…Yes?
Your thread is talking about people dismissing Wake Up because they think it was nerfed or is weaker and it factually was nerfed. Just because it was on the PTB that doesn't make not 'real' because the only reason the PTB version was changed was due to factors that had nothing to do with the perk's actual strength
I said in my very first post Wake up is good and still worth using, but the PTB nerf was completely unwarranted. Nerf sole survivor instead, the rat playstyle enabler.
But that's my point- framing what happened as a nerf causes people to think that it is now weaker.
It's also just kinda really misleading on its face. A perk getting buffed in a different way to the original plan is not a nerf, it's still a buff— just a different one.
We never had a version of the perk that was stronger than it is right now except for on the PTB, which is not part of the main game. If anyone thinks the perk was nerfed and is weaker now because of this framing and they don't know what actually happened, they've been deceived- the perk was buffed and is stronger now.
For the record, yeah, rework Sole Survivor, that perk sucks and is badly designed. That's just not actually relevant to the current Wake Up, which is stronger than the previous Wake Up.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969915#Comment_3969915
Objectively Wake up is better now than it was when it was 25% only. Fact.
But on the same page.
It would've been even better had BHVR not nerfed it from the PTB version, which would've made it to live if not for the existence of Sole Survivor rat playstyles. Fact.
They didn't need to 'rework' it, all it needed was a "Wake up deactivates if you are the last remaining survivor" and the whole 'rat playstyle' concern goes away.
I mean, sure, I guess, but is that really relevant?
We still have a version of the perk that is stronger than before. The version that hypothetically would've been even stronger than that doesn't really matter here? We're still looking at the perk as it is now, the PTB version wasn't ever a "real" version of the perk so it's pretty unreasonable to say the perk was nerfed because that hypothetical version had a larger buff than the one the perk actually got.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969909#Comment_3969909
No, originally it was going to just be a flat 50% bonus to gate opening speed
Source:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/488-8-5-0-ptb-patch-notes
Then it got it's 'rework' from PTB to live
Source:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/490-8-5-0-mid-chapter
Therefore it was nerfed.
The sole survivor thing i keep mentioning because some people kept complaining that people would just use new wake up + sole survivor in rat playstyles, so BHVR nerfed 'wake up' to deal with this instead of dealing with the perk that allows rat playstyles to exist in the first place.
It's important not to only compare PTB to Live. You also have to compare Live to Live, and also give that considerably more weight.
The PTB version of the perk didn't actually exist in the main game, it was a hypothetical. The previous Live version of Wake Up had a 25% speed, that was changed to a stacking incremental speed that works out stronger in two scenarios, the same in one scenario, and weaker in one scenario.
What you're framing as a nerf is instead a hypothetical buff that would've been bigger not making it to the main game. In terms of the actual game, Wake Up was buffed, not nerfed. That is more important than a hypothetical third version of the perk we never got to use in regular matches.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969905#Comment_3969905
It was objectively nerfed.
If by endgame there's only 3 survivors left, wake up's bonus is only 37.5% instead of the 50% it would've been without the rework. This is an extremely common scenario, most matches will hit endgame by the time one survivor is dead
Also idk what you mean by "reductive". The dev's reasoning for changing the perk was, quote:
"We want players to escape together with this perk, rather than leaving the team behind". Now, how is reaching the endgame with 1 person dead in anyway "leaving the team behind"?
The perk was 25% before the rework, not 50%.
It's also reductive to say "the perk was nerfed because Sole Survivor exists" when what happened is that the perk was buffed to shine in its intended niche more and to separate it from another perk that has a similar niche. It does genuinely make a difference- framing it as a nerf because of Sole Survivor implies that the perk is weaker, but it isn't.
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@Brokenbones said:
Daily reminder it was buffed and then nerfed because "Sole Survivor" exists and instead of simply adding the conditional "If you are last alive Wake up! deactivates" they completely reworked it and made it weaker than it otherwise would've been
I don't disagree that it's still good or worth using - It is, but the fact that a perk that was perfectly fine got nerfed because of the existence of another more problematic perk really really irritates me.
That's extremely reductive, but even without taking that into account… it wasn't nerfed. There's one slight downgrade in one scenario, that is outweighed by the multiple scenarios where it's stronger or the same.
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I'm concerned about this too.
The devs have said they're trying to avoid this problem, but I truly have no idea how you could possibly accommodate for this while still seeing perks in the lobby. Maybe they'll shift it to the loading screen instead? That could work.
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Honestly, I don't know that I would hard rework it.
The perk's intended use case is actually fairly worthwhile, it's both a good perk for teaching newer players and a hypothetically decent effect for skilled players too- better chance at a Great skill check is good no matter where you are on the skill curve, just less good if you're consistent at them anyway. The problem is that it's not that good at achieving its intended use case, in my opinion.
So, if I were to change This Is Not Happening, that's where I'd look. Just making it active while healthy would go a long way, but some appropriate secondary effect alongside that could be useful. I wouldn't necessarily go for skill check chance, though, despite that being the obvious pick.
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The problem with buffing Scavenger is that toolboxes are too good for that perk to not be bad, which is why that perk shouldn't have left the design phase until they had something to reign in toolboxes to go alongside it.
I'd love to see the perk be less meh, but you'd then have to grapple with the fact that people are just gonna use it in stacked Commodious genrush builds, and that's a problem.
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I would presume "extreme" will be measured by length of time on the ground, how many survivors are currently on the ground, or maybe both.
No sense freaking out until we know more, though.
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Damn, some genuinely good questions this time around, I'm pleasantly surprised.
Some interesting stuff in here, for sure. I found the breakdown of the cosmetic pipeline really interesting especially, love some really detailed answers like that.
Most exciting for me though is hexes not spawning until they've had an effect, I've been banging on about that for years. Very exciting stuff…
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I'm not so sure. While healing is quite strong right now, it's definitely nowhere close to any version of CoH— especially not the first iteration. Eight second heals are still not the norm for every injury, there's only one tool that gives survivors something close to that- although admittedly it does give them faster heals than that.
The thing about healing is that it hasn't really changed much recently, so that makes it difficult to assess what exactly might be problematic. Resurgence was buffed initially forever ago, the recent Botany change was functionally meaningless, there are a few new perks like Clean Break that are good but not overpowered… really all that's changed noticeably recently is Desperate Measures being buffed, but I'd be hesitant to suggest that's a cause of any problems here.
I think it's probably on the mark to suggest buffing anti-heal to help players feel like they have good options, but that's also tricky because it's easy to overcorrect. Still, maybe a slight buff to Mangled or something primarily to remind people of their options might be a good call.
The only actual healing tool I could see being worthy of a nerf right now is Resurgence because it is pretty insane. It does only work twice, though, so it's not that bad.
Maybe lower it back down to 50% but give it an extra effect for clearing negative effects on unhook, or something? Just spitballing.Every other tool, though, eh… I think they're probably okay. The meta just needs a light push towards good counterpicks.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968877#Comment_3968877
Oh, please. Billy can get all the way across the map in under 5 seconds. A normal M1 takes more like 20. That's 15 extra seconds of gen progress, multiplied by 3 survivors. That's half a gen of progress. Killers with mobility can pressure the entire map, instead of one small part of it, and they can do it quickly. If you leave your small area of control as a killer without mobility, then you're just throwing the game. Even if I know that there's a survivor on the gen over there, the problem is that I'm going to waste a ton of time getting there.
Not only that, but strong killers can "waste" perk slots on info. Weaker killers can't. They need multiple slowdowns and Bamboozle is almost required, otherwise they're going to either lose every shack/main building chase, or waste a ridiculous amount of time at any tile stronger than a jungle gym. And don't even let me get started on exhaustion perks and the amount of time they waste for weaker killers, or just how powerful pre-drop + shift w is against them.
Good survivors who know what they're doing can run weaker killers for a LOT longer than they're going to run your Nurses, Blights, or Spirits.
How long it takes to get across the map isn't the relevant number here, though. It's nice to have - it's part of why Billy's so strong - but the real thing that matters is how long it takes to get to a survivor.
They aren't always on the other side of the map. Quite often they're on the same side as you are, even— especially as the play area shrinks, very few survivors think to stagger their gens so that doesn't happen.
I also want to contest the idea that info perks are a "waste" of a slot. They're tied for the strongest class of perks to bring, alongside slowdown, and they're very useful- and you also have it backwards on which killers can afford the slots. Slower killers have a much higher need for info perks because they can't really afford to spend time looking for survivors- as you point out, it takes them longer to get to them and start the chase, so they really should be trying to do that straight away without the downtime of looking for survivors first.
Multiple slowdown builds are, to some degree, a bit of a noob trap. They can work if you know what you're doing, but slowdown in the current state of the game needs progress on your objective to work— you'll get much better outcomes from only one or two slowdown perks and filling the rest of the slots with info and chase perks.
Your play slows down the game. Downing a survivor is very potent slowdown on its own. Bringing perks that help you do that will help you slow the game down more than slapping on four unconnected slowdown perks and floundering in chase and search— which the slower killers need more, not less. -
@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968800#Comment_3968800
FOV slider (this is for both sides and is more QOL but it
doesgive a small advantage)What does the FOV slider do for survivors? It only works for killers.
Good catch, I got some wires crossed and thought it also applied to survivors as well. Scratch that one.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968869#Comment_3968869
The problem is, so many killers in the game really can't engage the game on that level of macro. They take too long to start new chases, and take too long to get another down. So instead of rotating survivors out in a steady stream of pressure, what you actually get is long stretches of time where 3 survivors are pressuring gens while the killer is only pressuring one survivor.
Breaking off chases can help, but with current heal speeds Hit and Run isn't really viable. Survivors are healed 10-20 seconds after you drop chase. You never really get ahead or stall the game. You spent 20 seconds getting the hit, and it was healed in 10.
For instance, I can play Spirit with a fun, meme-ish FttE, Furtive Chase, Nemesis, Lethal Pursuer build and generally do well and win more than I lose. Spirit can get hits and downs fast enough to support that build. If I tried that build on, say, Knight? I'd get absolutely destroyed more often than not.
Well, I don't think that's true.
For starters, how long it takes to start new chases is entirely dependant on the player's performance, not the killer's balance. There's a small degree to which some killers are a little slower because they don't have mobility tools, but even someone like Trapper can still get into a chase reasonably quickly if the player actually knows exactly where they're going and doesn't have to waste time looking for survivors.
Getting the down is definitely an area where killer strength matters, but you have to be scraping the bottom of the barrel for the worst five-ish killers before you get to a point where a skilled player can't get reasonably quick downs on most maps. Sure, your Trappers and Skulls Merchant playing on Badham are going to struggle hard but the average killer and average map are a lot more fair than they used to be.
That just indicates a few problem killers and a few problem maps more than it does the basic fundamental skill expression of the game not being functional. For every stumble they might've made on the way, BHVR's been doing a good job ensuring almost every killer can engage with the game on the basic level.Some killers have to work harder than others, and some killers might favour different builds to others (I've been playing Sadako who I think is really quite weak, and I've been swearing by Dissolution to help her way more than I expected), but it's completely doable.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968869#Comment_3968869
if you put it this way, then yeah, its not very correct for me to call tunnelling macro strategy. I would call macro to be any kind of strategy you're implementing in 1v4, your gameplan overall. Focusing pressure in one point is that kind of strategy as well, because you're putting all eggs in one basket, enabling survivors corresponding methods of counteracting.
"Macro strategies generally get buffed most of the time, albeit indirectly."
they are not. the few buffs you could name are outweighed by nerfs. it's incredibly difficult to "juggle survivors" when they take very little time to reset themselves, marginally delaying the critical point where you pressure culminates into a snowball and making recovering from that much easier as well.
Survivors' current ability to reset is very good, true, but broadly speaking that doesn't counteract the fact that many tools for enabling macro strategies have been buffed many times over.
Even without taking into account that every killer basekit buff is a direct boost to their ability to keep up pressure, we've also seen information perks buffed + introduced to help killers not waste time searching for survivors, chase perks buffed + introduced to help them end chases quicker, even some stuff like stealth perks buffed + introduced so killers can get the drop on survivors and shorten the time for the first hit in a chase.
Hell, there's even good potent answers to current reset tools. This wasn't an intentional change, but the best answer to Resurgence - Gift of Pain - is even a universal tool at the moment, every player has access to it. The whole game is encompassed by just not tunnelling, and a lot of it has been getting buffed lately.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968862#Comment_3968862
are you trying to imply something? yes, im talking about tunnelling as well.
it's being nerfed because "muh muh tunnelling blight/ghoul so unfair" even though a lot of other killers in the game will struggle massively against fair opposition without tunnelling to some extension, as their powers are not designed for consistently winning chases and starting new ones in record times.
I'm asking because tunnelling is very decidedly not a macro strategy, and I didn't want to launch into a whole point about it without checking that is what you meant.
Assuming that tunnelling here is any variation on "chasing someone as soon as they're unhooked", of course. Some people do have much broader definitions that can cover some kinda-sorta macro oriented things.
Chasing someone off hook to capitalise on them being injured and out of position, especially with the goal of getting them dead as soon as possible, is extremely focused on just what's right in front of you. It has a long term goal, but it isn't interested in engaging with the game's wider macro until you've tilted it massively in your favour.
The macro skill expression of this game for killer is very broad and nuanced so I can't summarise all of it in one message, but the most basic, fundamental element of it is pressuring multiple survivors at once to slow down generator repair. One on hook, one in chase, one going to save, and so on. Tunnelling is the opposite of that- leaving everyone except the person you're chasing unoccupied with only a brief break for them to be unhooked.
The whole point of doing it is to get someone out ASAP, not to juggle the survivor team or create deadzones or keep up any form of pressure. You only engage with the macro after tunnelling someone out in most cases.
Macro strategies generally get buffed most of the time, albeit indirectly. Tunnelling is just a balance problem, not a macro strategy.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968507#Comment_3968507
BHVR are already not doing it correctly because instead of changing the flawed design, they punish people for using it. Your very premise right here is already wrong.
"this isn't lowering skillcap, it's raising the skill floor".
This accomplishes both. You can accomplish objectively less if you dont optimize stages, dont mindlessly pick, dont leave good positions. This is the definition of a lower skillcap. There are less ways in my skill can be expressed and yield results because I have less options and leverages.
You are capable of less. The game isn't offering an alternative. The worst is that the game isn't addressing the actual core issue that most of these strategies propagate - onesided hopeless matches. It tries to script killer's macro skill expression and force them into playing in a streamlined way when it should be scripting the very flow of the match, making each stage (1v4,1v3,1v2,1v1) more fair even if the circumstances around it werent. 1v4 should be tremendously nerfed, 1v3 should stay the same or be buffed depending on how many hook stages killer scored on each person before getting a kill, 1v2 should be buffed, 1v1 should be reworked.
And speaking of raising skill floor, you kindly listed numerous buffs that killers got in compensation of the nerfs. Care to tell me, how many of these buffs added to raising skill cap and how many added to decreasing skill floor? What part of, for example, +10 seconds on generators made killers put more skill for higher reward? And what part of it just bluntly gave killers more time to stomp bad players? And how many of these buffs just added to survivors having to be "better" at the game to play around this, raising survivor skill floor?
"And to reinforce that people aren't as skilled as they think they are at this game: one of the biggest indicators of "mastery" in anything is being able to adapt. The better you are at something, anything, the more you can accept handicaps or restrictions and still perform."
They aren't really adapting, they're just making up for progressively increasing amount of missing options by leaning into the only consistent gameplan they have - slap 3-4 hook slowdown perks + 1 chase/info and win chases as fast as you can. If you can't, you lose and will eventually drop where you can.
Adapting means changing your strategy. I am adapting when I see dogshit healing meta and take franklin leverage + sloppy addon. I am adapting when I switch my gameplan from hit&run to tunnelling because people have strong reset. I am not adapting when Im losing an option and have to do the same thing but worse. Im just forced to try harder (or lose until my opponents get easy).
Speaking of that, you don't seem to get why am I calling this noobstomping. The reason is that for the whole "wholesome chungus no tunnelling/slugging/camping killer that plays only for chases" ordeal to work, the killers will need to be destroying survivors in chases, the 1v1 skill expressive interaction. This can only be accomplished in one out of two ways - unfair power or massive skillgap to consistently and successfully beat survivors in chases to get your hooks.
You can't have that when you're playing a killer with fair chase power and long average chase time vs knowledgeable player because your killer just doesnt work in a way that lets you instantly get near the target and kill them with an unavoidable skillshot. So you will need to remove or dampen down one thing out of the equation. The reality is that pretty much most killers except majority of S/high A can be ran for a decent amount of time as long as you have resources. So there you go.
For the killer to keep up without optimal macro strategies they need to be magnitudes better than the survivor at playing the chase. They need to be massively more successful as otherwise they won't have enough time to get to their 60% expected killrate as they would need to win a lot of chases before they lose the game to get their kills.
A lot of killers make up for having fair chases by having macro powers that give killers extra leverage to pressure people and make up for longer chases. You can figure that every new nerf to macro skill expression hurts these killers disproportionately compared to chaser onetricks.
And of course, since that's the goal to have people beating down worse players, we impose artificial handicap on killers so they can't just >4k3 these worse players. We don't think about the games where killers aren't facing marginally worse opponents.
Exciting gameplay of artificial difficulty while effectively legally smurfing.
Speaking of my personal experience, the games where I feel like I can play 100% fair on either of my mains is when survivors are visibly terrible and get hit by most of the tricks in the book. Beating down these people is neither fun nor difficult (though of course, gens are popping as the game goes on since im not applying pressure correctly), but I guess that's the kind of "chill killer gameplay" that we want - scripted and boring.
As I said, this whole thing is already culminating into shallow victories and hopeless defeats for killers and utterly boring one-sided gameplay for survivors because the only thing that is left for killers to play for is chase,chase,chase, while survivors can just rush gens and play for resources and good dying spots.
If you think this is healthy for the game because whatever reasons, it's your opinion, but this mentality developers are having and the design approach is why we're having such a massive gap between S tiers and everyone else, chase killers and everyone else and why killer role is becoming more and more a noobstomper role.
Yeah, we don't know what it is. It doesn't mean we can't make noise, especially when we got a glimpse of it with the chaos shuffle antislug testing that they had. It's better to talk about it as early as we can so that maybe the developer finally acknowledges that band aid systems and blanket buffs make the game worse for everyone but people who enjoy feeding their ego by getting cheap wins.
I'm curious about something here- when you talk about "optimised macro strategies", and also then go on to talk about how macro strategies get nerfed and that harms certain killers disproportionately, is the implication that tunnelling is one of those macro strategies?
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968659#Comment_3968659
Survivor basekit changes:
- Borrowed Time (incompatible with nearly every anti-tunnel perk)
- Anti-Facecamp (useless)
- Insanely generous regression limit
- +10 seconds on hooks
- Hook grabs removed
- Bots added for a warm body the killer can freely ignore until they get hatch
Killer basekit changes:
- +10 seconds to gens
- 10% faster action speed
- Bloodlust buffs
- +2.5% damage on gen kick
- Flashlight clicking removed
- Base kit lightborn on locker grabs
- +2.5% more damage on gen kick
- No insta-clicking to prevent regression (anti gen tap)
- Smaller maps, entire realm reworks, more dead zones, pallets weakened, tile spawn logic reworked to prevent chaining
- Healing nerfs to improve hit and run playstyles (CoH, medkits)
- "Gen rush" nerfs (BNP deleted, Prove nerfed)
- Survivors all spawn together (more gen rush nerf)
- Individual killer buffs every chapter for 2 years, most of which made some add-ons partially or completely base kit
- Bots added to allow perks to trigger even if the survivor disconnects
- Anti-hiding (crows buffed, distortion deleted)
FTFY
To be fair, while I fully disagree with the person you're responding to, I also think this list is a little off.
For survivor you list six things, but in this same timeframe there are also an additional two that I can remember off the top of my head and an arguable third on top of that. So, for survivor I'd probably list:
- Basekit BT
- Anti facecamp
- 3-gen/excessive stall limit
- Hook timers lengthening
- Hook grabs removed
- DC bots
- Action HUD for what your teammates are doing
- FOV slider (this is for both sides and is more QOL but it does give a small advantage)
- Visual terror radius? (this one doesn't really give an advantage but it does bear mentioning)
Then for killer, I think a few things are questionable here. Listing the damage on gen kick twice because it was buffed is a bit misleading when similar changes only get one bullet point elsewhere, flashlight clicking was removed because of concerns about epilepsy that affected both sides, and it's a stretch to put DC bots in here because they affect perks- no perk is stronger than just not having one survivor on the field. I'm also not personally going to count BNPs being nerfed, since that's just one thing and didn't conclusively address genrushing (defined here as using builds designed to maximise gen repair speed, with toolboxes mostly). If we include that, any individual balance change to a perk or addon should be included, and that gets messy quick.
So for killer I'd probably list…
- 10 extra seconds on gens
- 10% buff to action speeds
- Survivor post-hit sprint shortened
- Bloodlust buffs
- 2.5% damage to kicked gens, later buffed to 5%
- Locker saves removed
- Gen-tapping removed
- Some maps smaller, some loops weakened, etc
- CoH and medkits nerfed (I wouldn't necessarily pair this with hit and run, those two things were too strong regardless, but that's splitting hairs, it helps killers either way)
- Survivors spawning together (great for early efficiency)
- Consistent and comprehensive trend for buffing killer basekits
- Anti-hiding (though its efficacy has ping-ponged impressively…)
- FOV slider (same as the survivor list)
I think this list paints a fairer picture, though I'm probably missing things here and there. It shows more conclusively the more accurate trend- both sides do get significant changes that are at least designed to help them out, but killers do get a little more (eight or nine things listed for survivor depending on how you count it, thirteen for killers) which reflects that our cutoff point here was 6.1.0, a patch designed to reign in a much more survivor-favoured state of the game.
It also includes multiple changes where the effectiveness is up for debate, which I think is fair- the intent was still to help that role even if it didn't really work out.The person you're responding to is definitely wrong about killers never getting anything either way, of course. I'm bolstering your position more than contesting it here, I hope.