jesterkind
jesterkind
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@CrossTheSholf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989764#Comment_3989764
I was just thinking of this… does this just murder sadako, pig, and pyramid head???
I could see this maybe hurting Pyramid Head if it doesn't count cages as hooks for this system, but Sadako and Pig should ideally be hooking anyways.
Hell, Pig isn't meant to be reliably killing survivors that way to begin with. Sadako I could see being a concern, but I lean towards "you probably aren't killing someone that early with Condemned anyway".
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The dev update also says they lose collision, so you'd just walk through them in that scenario.
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As in, by getting in the killer's way?
They lose collision, so the killer can just walk right through them.
Also, y'know, they'd have to be on the ground for a minute and a half to pick themselves up.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989634#Comment_3989634
Literally the survivors being able to pick themselves up.
Currently, if a killer is forced to slug, they can proxy camp the slugged survivor, because a teammate eventually has to pick up the slugged survivor.Also, I think it’s awful that you think it’s fine for the slugging issues to “be the same” for the killer. It shouldn’t “be the same” for the killer. It should be a much improved killer player experience.
That's already part of those builds, you have to have a way of picking yourself up. Otherwise you're just bleeding out while the killer's chasing your teammates.
All the ways survivors have of doing that are significantly faster + stronger than this new system, so they don't get to replace their perks with this system unless they want to risk losing because the killer can just leave them there for a minute and a half to go pressure other survivors.
If your position is that BHVR should've addressed unhookable builds at the same time as other slugging issues and deserve to be criticised for it, I can get behind that. However, what you initially said is that this new system will affect forced-slugging in general and that survivors can weaponise it, and neither of those things are true.
They're different statements, is my point. I'm only contesting the ones I think are wrong, not the general idea that unhookable builds should be fixed.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989612#Comment_3989612
Survivors were creating areas where they couldn’t be hooked, and would purposely run there when they were getting chased. And since survivors could pick themselves up, their teammates could just stay on generators.
And again, if it’s so very rare for killers to be forced to slug for extended periods of time, then it should be completely fine to give killers a basekit way to remotely hook a survivor after they’ve been slugged for a certain amount of time.
I mean, what's changed there?
Outside of the new system being considerably slower than any perk they could bring… what's new? They can still do that and it isn't any stronger or more accessible.
I agree that it's still annoying and still needs to be fixed… but survivors can't use THIS UPDATE to make that any more annoying. It's just unchanged.
That's a genuine question, it's not rhetorical. I'm asking you directly, what has changed regarding unhookable build shenanigans because of this update?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989600#Comment_3989600
For real, I’m not having this conversation again. I am just so so exhausted with hearing how important it is for survivor issues to be fixed, but being told that killer issues are “fine”.
This update has massive massive massive changes for survivors. The fact that killers get absolutely nothing to help fix their slugging issues, is absolutely ridiculous.
This just encourages survivors to weaponize the anti-slugging mechanic, just like they did back in the PTB that had basekit unbreakable.
I'm not telling you killer issues are fine, I'm telling you this new change doesn't affect killer issues.
I'd agree with you that certain forms of forced slugging are annoying to deal with as killer and it would be really nice to see something done because of it, but it's a leap to say that means survivors even CAN weaponise this new system, let alone that they'd be encouraged to. How can they possibly weaponise a system that takes this long to kick in?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989578#Comment_3989578
- There is only 1 hook in range, and it’s currently broken because of a sacrifice or the Breakdown perk
- A survivor sabotaged a hook while the killer was carrying a survivor, and now they have too much wiggle progress to hook
- A survivor is under an undropped pallet, and their teammates keep threatening the area, and the killer needs to chase them all away
- Same as #3, but involves flashlight or flashbangs, when the survivor isn’t near a wall
- Some places are just literal hook dead zones
And because we’ve literally had this conversation multiple times before, I don’t care how much you think these scenarios are fine. I know you think these scenarios are fine, and I don’t care.
Alright, in order:
1: In those scenarios, wouldn't you be dropping that survivor and chasing someone else anyway? If you're waiting out the hook respawning instead, how often does that take 90 seconds? If it does take that long, aren't you throwing by waiting it out to begin with?
2: Same as above. You'd be dropping that survivor and chasing the sabotage user anyway, in most scenarios the survivor you dropped is getting picked up regardless.
3: This does not take 90 seconds.
4: This also does not take 90 seconds.
5: This is the same as the first two.It's not that these scenarios are "fine", it's that they aren't really relevant here. In three of the five you'd be dropping the survivor and focusing someone else anyway, so the survivor you dropped is probably getting back up again (& frankly this new system is a nerf in those scenarios because the survivors might be inclined to wait 90 seconds instead of picking their teammate up themselves), and in the other two 90 seconds is a ludicrous amount of time to secure your pickup.
I think you're not factoring in just how long 90 seconds is in these contexts. It's a long time in DBD.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
Why does anti slug trigger when the survivors force the killer to slug? Sometimes the killer literally can’t hook a survivor.
Killers really should be given a way to remotely hook a survivor after they’ve been slugged for 30 seconds., Or killers should be given something to prevent lose/lose situations where the survivors purposely create situations where they can’t be hooked, and then use their basekit unbreakable to pick themselves up.
To be fair, will it trigger in those situations?
90 seconds is a huge amount of time, I can't think of any time I was forced to slug a survivor for that long. Genuinely, can you think of any examples where a survivor would need to be slugged for almost half their total bleedout bar?
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@SurpriseAL2 said:
Ah yes. Lets give survivors 5 new basekit perks and even hold information from them about hooks. Killers get uhh…yeah good luck!
And myers is now for some reason a dash killer. A chucky that can 1 shot at a loop. How to ruin an identity of an iconic killer.
AWFUL update.
Killers get basekit BBQ, Haste, and an increase for their next generator kick.
That is, being conservative, two basekit perks - BBQ, and Pop - plus the partial effect of a few other perks in the form of Haste. While I suspect the generator kick increase isn't going to be much, basekit information and Haste after a hook is huge- it's frankly maybe too much, that's how good it looks on paper.
As for Myers, I think people are forgetting he already did this? He already had a bigger lunge in Tier 3, they just buffed a thing he already had and was already a big part of his identity.
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Damn, those are some big swings for anti-tunnel, I'm impressed.
Mostly it looks very good, losing collision after unhook alone is a fantastic change. I'm a little concerned at that list of blanket buffs for killers fresh-hooking, that all seems like a bit much when done all at the same time, but I'm open to testing and seeing where it lands.
The anti-slug looks good too, it's similar to something I proposed a while back but with a longer timer, which is fair. I don't see any universe where a 90 second timer is too short for legitimate slugging pressure, but of course it'll be the job of players to try and break it on the PTB.
Myers is… interesting. I think it retains enough of his thematic cohesion, but it is a bit of a shame to lose his tier-up mechanic because of just how perfectly it evoked the movie. Still, probably for the best, and leaning in to him being the giga-M1 with the increased lunge is appropriate too. I don't think this counts as making Myers a dash killer at all lmfao, if it does then he already was one.
Mostly I'm curious about the Mirror addons. They're the most fun part of Myers, I'm curious if we get to keep them in any form… -
@vol4r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3988725#Comment_3988725
Nah, keys are bad now, really.
Blood amber got massively nerfed and been changed from purple to iri. That's why people aren't really happy.
I would be fine if keys had more charges, iri wouldn't have downsides and the time was longer. I think a lot of people would be OK with this.
If it comes to bloodweb, I would definitely get rid of a lot of addons/offerings.
I would:
- Retire all map offerings
- Reduce fog offerings to 1
- Redude luck offereings to 1
- Reduce same addons for flashlight, medkit, toolbox but increase their numbers. Why do we need 3 batteries for 2, 4 and 6 seconds? Make it one with 10 additional seconds. Same with medkits - make charge addon for 24 charges, instead of 4 we have now.
- Buff or remove the fog vial - it's terrible now, does nothing.
The Blood Amber was nerfed, but keys were significantly improved overall.
As for the bloodweb… I'd be hesitant to just reduce the number of fog and luck offerings because they don't really do anything as they are. BHVR have said they want to overhaul offerings iirc, so I'd hope that fog and luck offerings get to have new effects on top of cutting down on how many there are.
I'd also probably suggest pruning the bloodpoint offerings, personally. I don't think we really need the brown variants, they don't have much of a practical use. -
@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3988791#Comment_3988791
I don't think that's necessarily true, I think Legion
couldfit into an entirely different niche- the counterplay to Legion is only not to healbecausethere's no other killer andbecausethat lowers the effectiveness of Feral Frenzy. They can undo the heal quickly, so in the mode with no other risk it makes sense not to heal against them.I think your analysis of the counterplay to Legion is misinterpreting its relationship to there not being another killer. The counterplay being not to heal is because there's no point - they're just going to quickly injure you again making it a waste of time. It doesn't necessarily lower the effectiveness of Feral Frenzy because full health or half health - in both cases the survivor ends up wounded with deep wounds.
Now add another killer. Healing is still a waste of time - they're still just going to injure you again in the exact same amount of time as before. All you've done is made the counterplay a lose-lose situation. Heal and a few moments later you're back in deep wounds making all that time spent pointless. Don't heal and best case everyone's playing like they have no mither, worst case you're feeding an Oni.
The problem with Legion is they're built to quickly ping pong across a lot of survivors and wound them. This makes them disproportionately more powerful as a team mate in 2v8 than other killers.
When I say it lessens the effectiveness of Feral Frenzy, what I mean is that Legion both injures quickly and makes healing up that injury take longer.
If survivors actually do heal up, and they don't have a really speedy way of doing that like a charged Inner Strength or a passive way of doing it like Clean Break, then Feral Frenzy shines the most because it can very quickly + reliably make that timesink completely wasted.
Pair that with the reality that, really, Feral Frenzy doesn't do much if you're injured. It puts you in Deep Wound, which is a short timesink, and it can technically down you if Legion gets lucky… but it's not that scary and Legion has absolutely nothing else. With no other external pressure, you have less reason to heal on top of the fact that Legion can make that time take longer and be invalidated quicker.In short, staying injured isn't scary and not staying injured both takes longer + can be undone very quickly. This is both Legion's major weakness and also the thing you'd be leveraging most by playing Legion, because survivors staying injured can be beneficial.
Now look at 2v8. There's obviously an incentive to heal- there's a whole other killer to capitalise on that injury even if Legion's on the other side of the map and THEIR power probably works a lot better against you in this state. The problem is, Legion is still very capable of making that heal take longer.
They're not necessarily AS good at undoing the heal as quickly - there's seven other targets for them to be chasing instead of three other targets and the maps are bigger - but you do still have to deal with Deep Wound to heal back up again and they're not bad at injuring you again.If Deep Wound didn't exist in 2v8's version of Feral Frenzy, then you only have to heal, and as I mentioned elsewhere, getting healed up is a little more accessible in 2v8. Not necessarily stronger, you can get pretty crazy heal speeds in the main game, but you're more likely to be near a teammate and Medic is pretty strong, so it's accessible.
Without Deep Wound making the heal take longer, Legion's still good because injuring survivors rapidly is something a teammate can capitalise on, but they're no longer in that forced lose/lose scenario. Their ability to injure the one person who got healed up is proportionally a little weaker, and they're not capable of making that heal take longer anymore. Less timesink, less ability to invalidate the timesink, Legion would then be relying on their teammate to clean up after them in a timely manner.Don't get me wrong, I think Legion would need more tweaks than this to properly shine as the support killer that doesn't get downs themselves that much, but I think it's a good start. That's what I think Legion in 2v8 should look like, good at injuring survivors but not good at enforcing survivors staying injured.
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@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989322#Comment_3989322
The fact that their powers are inherintly overpowered in 2v8.
Well, I gave it a shot.
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@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989172#Comment_3989172
Your 'answers' don't adress anything I've stated.
I'll give it another shot: What don't you feel was addressed? What, specifically, is still an issue with Legion in 2v8 if we reframe them as an injury machine setting up for their teammate?
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@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989071#Comment_3989071
I explained it several times, at this point I need you to explain how you aren't understanding this.
So far, you've mentioned two things that I can discern - the existence of a second killer, and the fact that Legion's counterplay is normally to stay injured.
I've given an answer to both of those things. Was there something you disagreed with in that answer?
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@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3988924#Comment_3988924
Because you don't address the actual issues. You are doing what the devs did to Ghoul where you say you fixed it but in reality did nothing to address the actual issues.
Would you care to elaborate on those actual issues?
It may help to reference my original reply to you, sometimes articulating it as a response to someone else's position makes it clearer.
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@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3988797#Comment_3988797
Because the existence of a 2nd killer and all the other reasons I've stated. So let me put it this way, killer que is roughly 40 minutes to find a match. This is 2v8 not the main game mode, I know you are a killer main and all and are probably used to the devs blatantly balancing the game in your favor but unless you want an hour que time you can't expect regular game balancing in 2v8.
I already laid out a way Legion could work with a second killer. What makes that not a workable idea?
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@LordGlint said:
Keep in mind that deep wounds isn't JUST a thing that wastes survivor time when it comes to Legion. Deep wounds is also the difference between if feral frenzy gets refreshed or if it ends. You'd have to come up with a prevention to Legion just stabbing 1 guy back to back with feral frenzy if you removed the deep wounds.
Now that's a fair point.
I'm sure it could be coded in that Frenzy just ends if the same guy's stabbed twice, though, or that it just doesn't have an effect so all it really does is waste time.
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@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3988791#Comment_3988791
Again, that changes nothing. Being able to spread a lot of damage easily just does not work in this game mode in any way.
I mean… why not?
There's equally higher ability to undo that damage, so what exactly makes it something that doesn't work in this game mode?
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@Foggyguy said:
Mending is not the issue, no one cares about that. Legion and Oni's powers literally are incompatible on a fundamental level in 2v8 because their powers are designed around there not being another killer. The counterplay for legion is to not heal but you can't do that when there's another killer who can one tap you easily. The counterplay for Oni is to prevent his power by not getting injured and keeping him as a M1 killer for as long as possible. Neither of these things are possible in 2v8 and thus they become major issues and are fundamentally incompatible with 2v8.
I don't think that's necessarily true, I think Legion could fit into an entirely different niche- the counterplay to Legion is only not to heal because there's no other killer and because that lowers the effectiveness of Feral Frenzy. They can undo the heal quickly, so in the mode with no other risk it makes sense not to heal against them.
If, though, we're meant to understand Legion as explicitly an injury machine that sets up for the other killer, and if the only barrier to undoing their threat is the very accessible healing (both because there are more players to heal you and because Medic is very strong), then the counterplay to a Legion team would be to heal.
Losing Mending would put them in this position. Healing wouldn't be that much of a timesink and 2v8 goes faster anyway, so the point of Legion would be to set up for your teammate and the counterplay to Legion would be to undo that setup.
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I'm absolutely baffled at the community's apparent decision that keys are somehow worthless after being massively improved, it's mind blowing to me.
To the wider topic though, bloodweb clutter is still very much a problem. I actually like that maps, keys, and fog vials have much fewer addons now (though the map could stand to have one or two more for completeness), it was a good move to try and cut down on the bloodweb clutter.
Personally though, I think offerings are the biggest offender. There are a lot of offerings that don't really see use and only serve to be clutter, that system needs an overhaul. -
@Coffeecrashing said:
Sole Survivor + Clairvoyance is the current meta for lone wolf builds.
Lone wolf is an awful playstyle, that should be nerfed. But it's currently the best perk combo for survivors trying to escape streak.
Eh, I really don't think that one specific pairing does all that much to raise Sole Survivor. Most of the heavy lifting is done by Clairvoyance here, Sole Survivor is just insurance in case the hatch spawns next to the killer.
There are other perks in the Bad column that have very specific "kind of okay" builds like that, namely Self Care, but I don't think that outweighs how bad the perks are outside of that context.
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@Brokenbones said:
"Clean Break" in very good and "Second Wind" in a tier below it is kind of criminal I'm ngl
Clean Break feels like a Killer perk a lot of the time, you're actively opting to stay broken for an entire minute when you COULD have been healed by your teammate since that's it's activation window
Meanwhile Second Wind's countdown activates at a very important time (Being unhooked) and is only 20 seconds.
The thing about Clean Break is that you're completely capable of activating it when you're not likely to be in danger for a while, and then you can just hop on generators and be entirely efficient. Second Wind only activates twice, and while it's definitely good, I don't think it matches the flexibility of Clean Break.
They're both good perks, but I genuinely think Clean Break is the better pick in a lot of situations. It allows for great efficiency across multiple uses, and while Second Wind is similar, it's more restricted in ways I think make it a bit weaker.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
Glad I'm not the only one that sees the value of lucky break!
That perk is crazy good, probably one of the most underrated perks in the game.
Not one I personally use much, but it has a ton of really achievable potential.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
You think power struggle shouldn't exist? Its very situational.
The thing about Power Struggle is that it's basically impossible to get value from it unless you're forcing the killer into really annoying lose/lose scenarios. It's not a perk that'll activate unless you force it to, and the ways players have available for doing that tend to be deeply frustrating.
I'd love to see it reworked sometime. I had an idea a little while ago for making it anti-tunnel, but really anything that fixes the way it currently is would be fine.
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The problem is, Clown's skill floor was lowered, by quite a lot. All you really need to do now is throw a yellow right in front of you, and you instantly become super oppressive.
I agree with you that Clown did need to get better, but the reality that I think this unsuccessful attempt has revealed is that you can't do that by just making his numbers higher. Clown really deserves a full dedicated update to excise out the unpleasantness and make him stronger in a healthier way.
In the meantime, he does need to be nerfed from where he is. Not by much, I made a post about it myself, but he needs to be stabilised to lower the effectiveness of yellow bottle spam and reinforce the effectiveness of using his power more smartly at loops.
After that, he really needs more dedicated fixes. -
To be fair, while I understand the point of frustration, I don't really see what's actionable about it.
How do the devs fix this? Adding an individual map offering for each map instead of realm would bloat the bloodweb obscenely, and raising the chance for going to a specific realm only really kicks the can down the road + could make map offerings too good again.
Honestly, I'd sooner ask if achievements for specific maps should exist, over talking about the map offerings.
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Seconding the person further up saying the stealth is the main part- the drones don't really do very much at this point, outside of the survivors who'll just sorta run blindly into them because people broadly don't know how to play against her. You'll get the occasional ranged injury that way, but they really don't do much else.
Her stealth, however, is actually pretty alright. If you build into that and make it the centre of your playstyle, maybe give her some M1 chase perks as well to complement it, you'll do okay.
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@Doc_Bobko said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3985244#Comment_3985244
oh ok thank you!! I had no clue what slugging was haha. that happened to me the other day guy downed all 4 of us and let us bleed out.
Tunneling - thank you!
It's not one of the more immediately intuitive terms, haha, it took me a while to figure it out too.
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@Doc_Bobko said:
so Killers will get punished for taking ppl out the game? I get tunneled out of games a lot, doesn't bother me one bit. the whole point is to remove survivors. are ppl that soft these days? I understand going after camping killers I get that. but if I'm roaming the map and hook a player run around the map and that same player I hook again what's the problem? AND what is slugging lol new to dead by daylight
Typically tunnelling in this context is usually more focused on chasing someone as soon as they're unhooked, not finding someone who'd been hooked recently while roaming the map. It's not a punishment for killers to address this, either, it's just fixing a balance problem.
Slugging is leaving survivors on the ground after downing them, without picking them up and hooking them. Unlike tunnelling, there are some completely legitimate situations this can cover, but BHVR have already said they're trying to be careful about only tackling the most egregious forms of it - which I'd personally assume is leaving everyone on the ground without hooking anyone, or just generally not attempting to hook at all until everyone's downed.
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If you'd like some advice, one of the best things you can do to control gen speeds is to run information perks. Going straight to survivors you can see is a lot stronger than wasting time searching for them.
There's some other stuff to mention as well, but I'll leave it at that for now. Information perks are, in my opinion, stronger than gen perks- and unambiguously they're important to run either way.
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I don't think I agree with this, personally. On my end I never use full-slowdown builds and often don't have any gen slowdown perks at all, and while some games have gens fly by, it's usually the ones where survivors actually brought toolboxes to make that happen.
Broadly speaking I find it's useful to do a sanity check on two things:
- How much time are you wasting at the start of the match? Are you aware of where the survivors are and making a beeline for them, or are you having to look for them? It's a very easy mistake to make and can cost you dearly if you're playing a slower-start killer like Ghostface. If you have access to it, the perk Lethal Pursuer is extremely useful here.
- How much time are you wasting after a hook? Are you aware of where the survivors are and making a beeline for one, or are you having to look for them? This is an even easier mistake to make than the first one, and can cost you for similar reasons. A hook is the best springboard for pressure you have in the game because it can, if played right, force multiple survivors off generators at once— but playing it right requires getting into a chase pretty soon after you get the hook. The useful perks here are much broader than the first bullet point, there are a pretty wide selection of good information perks that can help you not waste time.
More specifically, I want to lightly touch on one thing, which is that I often see people cite Ghostface specifically when they're talking about this, and I think people aren't reckoning with the fact that Ghostface is a killer that is uniquely weak in this regard. His power is designed with a really sharp risk/reward, feast/famine element to it- if Ghosty isn't able to get the drop on people and mark them, he practically has nothing to help him turn a match around. Even Myers, his closest analogue, only needs to build a meter and can't have his power taken away from him- if he pops tier 3 that's a snowball opportunity on any survivor, and he doesn't need to be incredibly on the ball to do that the way Ghostface does + he isn't restricted to only having that shot on the one survivor who activated the power the way Ghostface is.
If you can't stay in Night Shroud and fully Mark someone, you are a powerless M1 killer. That's not really true of other killers, so the phrasing "low tier killers LIKE ghostface" kinda rubs me the wrong way.I'm not saying "don't play Ghostface if you want to win", I'm just saying that matches snowballing out of control is a problem Ghostface deals with even more than other low-mid tier killers. This is a weakness that he has, that you should accept is a risk when you pick him + maybe try and mitigate with perks, since regular chase perks help him out when he can't get a Mark on someone and certain other perks can help him snowball without needing his power as much.
The pool of viable killer perks/builds is larger now than it's ever been, but that doesn't mean just any old perk will work. Identify weaknesses in your gameplan, and pick your perks around that- to either bolster the strengths, or shore up the weaknesses.
Also, y'know. Nothing wrong with running a gen perk. They are pretty good. -
@rexdredd said:
We might as well make a Jim rift since BHVR has abandoned developing lore in the rifts. We have a Jim icon- but no elodie badge (the main character of this tome). It's like a carrot on a stick with you guys. Marvel-fication of DBD. Unserious meme slop content »»» thoughtful/detailed/passionate driven efforts
It's not as though this one little badge is mutually exclusive with those driven efforts, though.
BHVR have already said they're going to do a whole bunch of much more impactful things to address the current issues, and while there's no guarantee any of these things are going to be implemented well… whether or not their efforts bear fruit has nothing to do with them acknowledging a sillier bug this way.
The badge is a nice gesture, and it's part of a series of responses BHVR have planned. I get not personally being interested in the badge, I get finding the bug more annoying than funny, but I don't get acting like the badge is in any way at odds with serious efforts to fix things.They're currently planning on doing both. What's the harm in also playing along with a community meme at the same time?
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I think so, yes, but I wouldn't necessarily nerf them by as much.
Fix the opacity across maps, adjust the aura blocking to only hide players, and maybe remove footstep muffling. That's really all that's needed, Fog Vials weren't crazy oppressive before in the first place.
A lot of people freak out about the infinite use, but that's only a problem if the effect is too strong to warrant it. If we have a comparatively only decent effect, the item is balanced around infinite use, and everyone wins- killers never have to deal with crazy potent versions of these effects, and survivors get more opportunities to use the new toy.
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I don't know that I buy Jim specifically being an indication of poor quality control or anything. Minor visual bugs that pop up between PTB and Live are fairly unremarkable, and that's all this really was.
The other big bugs and problems with this chapter are the ones worthy of the really scathing criticism, not the benign goofy visual bug.I think it was ultimately a good idea for BHVR to lean in, since everyone was feeling pretty dour at the time, and most still are. The little moment of levity and acknowledgement of the situation was a good call.
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@YouShouldBeAshamed said:
The vial was perfect at launch and then we had the killers sobbing so the pacifiers got pulled out. What a disappointment, just when there was some hope and fun to be had, completely useless item now.
Deeply unhelpful attitude, friend.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3983384#Comment_3983384
I mean that's the issue though, the current effect is really not decent, they're honestly quite bad right now and were bad last patch even with unlimited charges. The opacity reduction weakened them far too much and I don't think they ever should've been nerfed that way, other than Potent Extract (which was overtuned but then got overnerfed), the opacity was never an issue other than the map-specific bugs which need to be fixed. The only reason base fog vials were overbearing originally was because they could be used too often and there wasn't much strategy in saving them for the right moments, they could basically be used in every chase which was unhealthy. The effect itself was always fine, the problem was that the effect was too common.
My personal assumption about the current opacity is that it seems worse than it is because it isn't consistent across maps. I am working on the assumption that fixing that will make the current opacity fairly decent.
If not, at that point yes, buff the opacity. However we get there, I think the Fog Vials should be balanced around infinite use but comparatively weaker/just decent effect.
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@Araphex said:
Fog vials are completely useless now. You can see all the way through them, and now you can see scratch marks.They're just wasting space now.
To be fair, I'm pretty sure you can only see all the way through them on some maps, because the opacity is inconsistent across realms.
That's why I suggest fixing that as a major priority for the item.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
I would much rather revert the opacity and keep limited charges. The opacity nerf made fog vials much less useful imo even with infinite usage.
That said, I agree 2 charges is not enough and I think it should be bumped up to 3, but no more than 3 either.
The thing about only having three uses is that those uses need to be very potent to make up for it.
I personally think it would be healthier to have the item balanced with a just "decent" effect instead of a really potent one, and give players more opportunities to get value from it. That outcome really is better for everyone- no high risk of whiffing your extremely limited item, but no super potent, super annoying effect to deal with on the killer side either.
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@Fuzzycube said:
Are people genuinely seeing many fog vials in game right now? For me it’s like everyone has moved back to flashlights, med-kits and toolboxes.
I've not played much but I haven't seen them in the games I did play.
I think you'd see them more with these changes made, though.
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@SoGo said:
I feel like the limited uses could work IF it's something like 3-4 times.
The main issue right now is making them consistent, so they don't have differing effects based on what map or against which killer they are used.
That's definitely the most important part, but the next step down on the priority queue would be deciding between strong but limited and weaker but more accessible.
Mostly I just wanted to air my thoughts, though.
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@ThatRyanB said:
I totally hear the frustration here and know I personally can't change how these nerfs feel for you, but I do want to make sure the feedback I'm bringing back to the team is as specific as possible and as representative of your experiences in the game as possible. With that, it makes it easier to advocate for changes.
If you don't mind me pulling this back a step to dig into the details, I'd like to ask two specific questions:
1. Of the two recent nerfs to Fog Vials (reduced opacity; max 2 charges), do you feel that one of these in particular pushed the item from feeling viable to feeling like it's not worth using? If so, which was it?
2. If you could make one specific change to Fog Vials that'd push them towards being an item you'd enjoy using, what would it be?
I hear the more general feedback (and rest assured, it's being collected and shared with the team), but if there are specific facets of the recent nerfs that felt most impactful, I want to make sure I'm giving them my particular attention. That, and things that could make Fog Vials feel better for you (like the great suggestions of increasing the total charges a little more).Personally speaking, I would say the lower charges is the more substantial nerf. Fog Vials do have other effects than the literal fog itself, so reduced opacity does hamper them but doesn't outright stop them from working entirely. Only having two uses of a fairly inconsistent effect is much more of a concern, and would certainly push me to think "Why risk not getting value from my only two uses when other inconsistent items like flashlights have far more attempts and there are more consistent items than both of them like medkits, toolboxes, and keys to bring?"
Addressing Fog Vials in exactly one change would be difficult, so if you'll permit me a little bit of a cheeky answer, I'd probably say "reducing the number of effects while increasing the number of uses".
Ideally, I'd make Fog Vials infinite-use on a recharge but make it so they don't muffle footsteps - just lessening their potency while giving players more attempts at using the weaker effect. If I were to nail down what would be appealing about Fog Vials as an item, it's that they offer chase-based effects that aren't as restricted as other items.If they are as restricted as other items, it makes them hard to justify bringing. Weaker but more plentiful is better than stronger but fewer in number here, in my opinion.
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I wonder, are Fog Vials items that can be boosted with Built to Last?
If so, they might still be usable with a dedicated build. Outside of that, two max does seem like too harsh of a nerf, they're not as potent as flashbangs or anything so I don't think they need to be as restricted.
I wouldn't be surprised if we see BHVR revisit Fog Vials a little down the line, this reads like a knee-jerk overcorrection because everyone's mad at them at the moment. -
@UndeddJester said:
Still Sight is a good perk, I've been using it a bunch, but I'd hardly call it OP in chase.
If you've got 2 seconds to stand still to trigger it while out of line of sight, you've already successfully mind gamed/check spotted the killer, and Still Sight merely affirms what the killer is doing next, which 90% of the time you already know.
Honestly it's best use case right now is to take Open Handed and if you aren't sure the killer is coming your direction, stop working a gen and check. It's also pretty good for deciding if you want to heal under hook or not.
Beyond that, can't really call it OP.
Pretty much what I was scrolling down to say, haha.
It's good, but I don't think chase is the best use case for it.
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@TheGoone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982110#Comment_3982110
I was thinking we bump it down to 1 chest but AI is now token based every opened chest grants 1 token rummaging also grants 1 token for a max of 3.
Spending 1 token you can build a Fragile pallet in 3 seconds
I've also considered that, and it'd definitely be better - I just think it'd also still be weaker than it needs to be.
Still, no denying it'd be better than what we have.
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@Rulebreaker said:
Possibly? Just the fact of the threat of a pallet is a decent thing on its own. Getting repeatedly stunned without a pallet eating build normally will cost killers lots of time. Now imagine both those being unlimited, and if we wanted worst case, from 4 survivors coordinating.
Not sure if it would be op but definitely don't think it would be a healthy thing regardless.
To play devil's advocate, it is a fragile pallet. Respecting them to avoid the stun is outright stronger than against regular pallets, because if a survivor does try and drop it, you get a free hit instead of giving them distance by breaking the pallet yourself.
I could see it being mildly annoying in very on-the-ball team comps, but I don't know that it'd be outright unhealthy.
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Probably not, but to be fair, the chest-searching part is thematically extremely on brand. Salvaging parts from dangerous places to build stronger defences is very much something the TWD characters do, canonically- makes sense to make a perk with a similar premise.
I think the bigger problem with Apocalyptic Ingenuity is that it's one-and-done per two chest searches. If searching/rummaging two chests unlocked the ability to make fragile pallets indefinitely, the perk would hit a much better intersection between thematic and actually useful.
A cooldown would be a good way of limiting it after the fact, or maybe have it so you can only have one active fragile pallet at a time. That might not even be necessary, though- fragile pallets are very weak.
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To be fair, not every change requires a direct response. Not even every bad change requires a direct response.
That said, Franklin's definitely needs a new second effect- not a reversion, of any kind, a new effect that's at least not unhealthy for the game.
@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/453650/why-the-silence-on-franklins-demise
Eh, what's the point? It had pretty obvious reaction on PTB and they still came through with it.
Watch at Knock Out rework, literally every CC and player here said on PTB that it's pure garbage, you think they care? Another killer's perk went into trashcan.
Idk, what's going on with killer perks is pure tragedy. Not only we didn't see really good killer perks in years, but they keep deleting perks again and again, while buffs are nothing burger mostly.
Overwhelming Presence probably the only recent reworked perk you can pick on any killer and get at least some value. Not just play 5 matches and hope that perk will do something, not just equipe it on 2-3 specific killers which has some synergy with it, not something just does nothing whole game while buffing survivors. Just good universal perk you can see a little value every game. Not even strong or something, just working and giving a little value. It's already praiseworthy by current measures.A little late to this comment but I have to disagree that we haven't had good perks in years. Jagged Compass, Languid Touch, and Friends Til The End are all just down-the-middle good perks that work on a variety of killers, you really don't have to scrounge around for good picks— if you're willing to cede a few points like working in specific builds or on specific killers, there's a lot more
Perk reworks tend to be much more hit and miss, for sure, but it's important not to overlook all the small number-change type buffs we get to perks that raise their profile. Killer perk variety is definitely not suffering right now. -
I think you're being quick to dismiss these.
Someone's already pointed out that Conviction is very good, the fact that Unbreakable exists doesn't change that. Hell, there's an argument that could be made for Conviction being too good, it's definitely not a bad perk by any stretch.
I also think that Come And Get Me isn't that bad, honestly. It's definitely similar to Babysitter, but the fact that it can be used after the unhook without being tied to the unhook puts it in its own niche imo. Not a perk I've personally gotten around to using yet, but one I absolutely could.
Apocalyptic Ingenuity is bad, no denying that. I also think Last Stand isn't nearly as good as some people make it out to be, so no arguments there.
The last thing I'd like to say is that you shouldn't immediately dismiss a perk because it uses a keyword in common with bad perks. Neither of these Teamwork perks are fantastic, don't get me wrong, but they're SIGNIFICANTLY better than the previous Teamwork perks. That archetype doesn't actually mean anything, the perks share nothing in common with each other that other perks don't also have, each perk should absolutely be evaluated on their own merits instead as part of a group. There is no group, "Teamwork" doesn't mean anything.(ftr I would probably say both of these Teamwork perks have niche application with a SWF but wouldn't be worth it in solo queue. Not bad, but not really all that good either.)
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Why on earth would Pig be nerfed? She's only received one direct nerf in the last five years of balance changes.