jesterkind
jesterkind
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993236#Comment_3993236
The killer literally does not get a neon sign saying someone has DS. Just because someone aggressively bodyblocks, does not mean they have DS. For example, someone might aggressively bodyblock because they are at full health, and have an active OTR, but no DS.
And it's such a giant misplay to avoid picking someone up if they actually don't have DS, that it's better to risk the odds and pick survivors up, especially because the pick rate of DS is so low.
The neon sign is that they let themselves get downed. If they're at full health and/or have active OTR, they're not going to keep running at you until they're on the ground, they'll get injured/put in Deep Wounds then run away.
Granted, some players will occasionally do that, but it's a more reasonable tell that they have DS.
It's also not a misplay to leave them there. I can understand the opposing argument that picking them up is worth the risk, but we're comparing two good outcomes here - one being a free hook, the other being free slug pressure while you're already in another chase so you don't have any downtime.
That's why it isn't weaponising. You can just benefit from it more than the survivors do.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993231#Comment_3993231
Leaving the survivor on the ground, is actively giving up an opportunity to tunnel a survivor out of the game, and is actively choosing to spread hooks instead.
There is a major difference between the killer travelling across the map to chase a recently unhooked survivor, and the killer leaving a recently unhooked survivor on the ground when that survivor is literally next to the killer.
I mean… sure?
If you don't mind eating a DS stun because you want to tunnel someone, that's fine, but you also can't say that survivors are capable of weaponising DS because you personally choose to eat the stun after a survivor flashes a neon sign saying "I have DS pick me up now so I can stun you" by letting you down them as you're chasing their teammate.
That's your choice to take obvious bait, not actual weaponisation.I mean honestly man I really struggle to see your conclusion here after the back and forth we've had, maybe you could summarise it?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993185#Comment_3993185
You keep saying the correct play for killers is to leave a survivor slugged on the ground, if they might have DS. You're basically saying that killers should completely stop tunneling a survivor, and spread hook instead, because that survivor MIGHT have an active DS.
…No.
I'm saying that if a survivor is running in front of you and trying to bodyblock and also lets you down them doing this, you should probably just leave them on the ground after downing them. It's obviously throwing to let the killer do that without DS, and you get more value out of continuing the chase you were already in anyway.
This conversation started because of weaponising anti-tunnel as an idea, remember. We're talking about survivors who try to weaponise DS via bodyblocking and we are only talking about that, because there's context to that situation that doesn't apply elsewhere.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993040#Comment_3993040
Tunneling a survivor out of the game is absolutely worth the risk of eating a DS, especially when most survivors don't equip the perk.
You're basically saying a killer should avoid tunneling a survivor, and spread hooks instead, because they might eat a stun for a few seconds. How on earth does that make sense? Tunneling a survivor is absolutely worth a potential DS stun.
What?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993012#Comment_3993012
But according to you, using the perk defensively would also be a huge gamble, because according to you, if the killer left the survivor on the ground, then the killer won that exchange. So why aren't there a lot of survivors complaining about this on the forums? Where are all the survivors complaining that their DS perk is "useless" if the killer leaves them on the ground?
If you're using the perk defensively, the killer went out of their way to chase you.
If you're using the perk offensively, you're going out of your way to chase the killer.
One of those wastes the killer's time. One of those wastes the survivor's time.
It's the whole thing I'm saying that matters here, man. It's not just the killer leaving the survivor on the ground, it's the killer leaving the survivor on the ground after the survivor went out of their way to follow the killer and the killer's already chasing someone else as well.
Those three variables make up the scenario people usually talk about, and if you change one of those three variables, the outcome also changes.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993004#Comment_3993004
Do you honestly think DS would be as popular as it is now, if "leave the survivor on the ground" really was a valid counterplay that was in the killer's favor?
How exactly does that work? All the people using DS believe they are taking a huge gamble, because if the killer just leaves them on the ground, the killer won that exchange? And the only reason why DS is useful is because most killers "don't understand" that they should always slug a survivor if they've recently been unhooked?
I mean, I would assume most people running DS want to use it defensively, or they're otherwise just hoping to bait the killer into a stun and accept the risk it might not work.
Not everyone running it thinks that running at the killer and getting slugged is a good use of their time, somewhat obviously. That's not even the intended use of the perk, and people hate tunnelling- it's not at all unreasonable to think they want to use it as anti-tunnel.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992959#Comment_3992959
I refuse to imagine any scenario you give, that revolves around "more survivors repairing = better for survivors". That completely disregards the fact that delaying the killer from hooking a survivor is sometimes more important than having more survivors repairing.
Yes, I agree.
That's why I'm trying to explain that the third scenario involves the survivors not delaying the killer more than they're delaying themselves. They give their teammate a protection hit, but they're left on the ground for however long. It doesn't work out because what THEY'RE giving up is worse than what they're taking from the killer.
The second scenario, which both delays the killer and DOESN'T delay them by as much, is to their benefit. The third scenario is not, because the killer is benefiting from the objective delay more than the survivors are.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992972#Comment_3992972
I have an example of this being true, that being Ghoul's kidnap tech. This is actually preventable and better if you just let him bite you rather than running away from the vault. All you need to do is hug the vaultable prop and the killer's only option is to take the bite and you get more distance, or cancel power and vault the window, or just cancel power (some people play for no enraged with broken chain.)
Not to say kidnap teching wasn't broken, its just avoidable when you're injured and theres a better option to outplay it since you're getting injured regardless.
No, OP is talking about things that are added to fix general complaints.
IE, stuff like this new system- it's there to resolve a survivor complaint. They're saying that every time that happens, killers complain, and BHVR nerf the thing in question to oblivion. I do not think this is true, personally, that's what my comments are about.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992912#Comment_3992912
No one had a problem with the anti 3 gen system, it almost never comes into play anyway.
Basekit anti tunnel only hurt people who insta tagged off hook, it didn't affect fair players at all.
Anti camp needs a buff, and a pretty substantial one. The meter grows far too slowly and doesn't recognize when the killer is still camping a narrow entry to the side of the map where the hooked survivor is (like on Coal Tower's hill hooks or Azarov's Resting Place's or Suffo Pit's weird narrow mid map.)
These new anti tunnel adjustments sound very unfair and super punishing, even if you try to make an effort to spread hooks. Imo and some others have already suggested it, the total hooks required before killing a survivor should be reduced to 4 stages, and the Consecutive hooking to sacrifice/kill the same survivor should be linked to this stage requirement rather than just being if you tunnel someone out, you lose all your gen defense. This way your not punished for having someone die early if you at least tried to go for someone else.
I mean, I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion there but I'm not making a comment about the new system here. I'm talking about people who say "every survivor complaint response gets nerfed into oblivion immediately because of complaining", which is a statement I think is just flat out false.
I was asking the question legitimately, too, not rhetorically. I wanted to know if people were thinking of other changes I'm not thinking of myself when they say this.
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@Whitey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992942#Comment_3992942
Hey, can you either play killer for more than ten games in a row or put down the crack pipe? Would you like to tell me how many full-power perks Killer gets to alleviate the meta and "unfun" survivor playstyles, compared to the frequency, potency and amount of full-power perks Survivors get not because of imbalance, but to alleviate "unfun" situations?
I mean. It's only one perk for survivors right now, right?
Not counting this dev update, survivors got Borrowed Time made basekit. I can't think of any others off the top of my head? There were other basekit additions, but stuff like the survivor HUD or the anti face camp or the anti 3-gen aren't basekit perks even if some effects are somewhat similar.
With this dev update, that does climb to two, with Tenacity, but that's still not that many.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992907#Comment_3992907
But you can't argue that, and still argue that the number of survivors on generators is the most important thing survivors can do.
This whole "survivors can't weaponize anti-tunnel" argument revolves around the belief that the number of survivors repairing is the most important thing. It's the only way the "DS can't be weaponized because it's less survivors repairing generators" argument can work.
Sure I can.
Though, for the record, I wouldn't ever argue that survivors can't weaponise anti tunnel in general. A few of the tools they have available can be weaponised, Endurance in particular. It's DS that can't be weaponised because the survivors get minimal returns for considerable downsides if the killer just leaves the person trying to do so on the ground.
Imagine a regular chase after an unhook. Survivor A comes to rescue survivor B, killer chases survivor A, survivor B goes and resets + is back on gens pretty quickly. Three survivors on gens after a brief delay.
Imagine a chase where a survivor uses Endurance to bodyblock. Survivor A comes to rescue survivor B, killer chases survivor A, but survivor B comes and takes a hit with their Endurance before running away. Again, a brief delay, slightly longer this time, but three survivors on gens.
Now imagine a chase where a survivor either doesn't have Endurance to bodyblock with or keeps chasing the killer to get in position for another bodyblock while in Deep Wounds. Survivor A comes to rescue survivor B, killer chases survivor A, survivor B keeps following the killer until they have to hit them, killer continues to chase survivor A. There are two survivors on generators, and only remains two on generators if survivor B has some way of picking themselves up- otherwise it's one survivor on generators.
The context matters. If a survivor is following the killer's chase to try and get in the way and ends up on the ground, they've wasted time. If they can bodyblock quickly without doing that, it works out in their favour. There's some hazy middle ground for following the killer but taking a hit and running away again, but those are the extreme ends.
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What is it that people are referring to when they say this, genuinely?
The anti 3 gen system wasn't, to my recollection, adjusted at all from PTB to live. The survivor HUD update wasn't adjusted from PTB to live unless you count fixing a bug + was buffed later on down the line. Post-unhook Haste and Endurance wasn't nerfed from PTB to live + was buffed later on down the line.
Is it just that the anti facecamp system got tweaked? Is that what people are thinking of with this take?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992883#Comment_3992883
The two survivors are delaying the killer from progressing hooks, which means delaying the killer from progressing their objective.
By your logic, pallet saves, flashlight saves, flashbang saves, and hook sabotages are ALWAYS a terrible strategy for survivors, because it requires a 2nd survivor that could be repairing generators instead.
Both survivors get to run away after a successful save. One may be in chase, but the other gets to go off and do generators.
If a survivor lets themselves get downed while bodyblocking, neither get away. One's on the ground, and the other is still in chase. It's a net negative, and it's why bodyblocking is more commonly done just to end up injured or in Deep Wound so it actually works out in the survivor's favour.
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If you want to address "hard genrushing", which I would agree is worthwhile, you don't actually need to change the basekit mechanics- that requires specific loadout options, so you can fix this problem far more elegantly.
In fact, fixing real genrushing, the kind that's actually a problem, only requires one thing: Rework toolboxes.
Now, what to rework them to is worth a conversation, of course, but in general if toolboxes lost their gen speed bonus and had it replaced with something that doesn't directly make generators take less time to complete, genrushing as a problem completely disappears. I know some people will bring up perks in this context, but gen speed perks are so dramatically weaker than toolboxes that I firmly believe they just aren't a problem whatsoever.
There is a real problem here that's worth addressing, but we must acknowledge the problem isn't just survivors being split up and doing gens when they don't have something else to do. That's just the video game, and it's the killer's job to respond to it.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
You know the changes are bs because they are disabled for custom matches..... They know how much this would screw with comp DBD.
To be fair, comp DBD is its own thing that typically enforces its own set of custom rules anyway. I see these changes being something you can disable in custom matches as more of a nod towards their need to alter the game rules for the sake of their competition anyway, personally.
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I wouldn't say over, but definitely harder. You'd still have two gens + endgame to play for, so it's doable, but very tight.
It's important to remember two things, though.
1: The game doesn't end if you get these penalties. It could be that a repair speed bonus to the remaining survivors is a worthwhile trade for getting someone dead, or it could be that a dead survivor is worth trading away no longer damaging gens - it's a choice to make here, rather than a hard requirement to go for someone else.
2: The game has changed such that losing three gens in your first chase is a lot less common now. There is a degree to which that is a skill issue a lot of the time, and that's a good thing - it means it's in your control to try and stop it. I'm not saying nothing remains in the game that can force this bad start, toolboxes and toolboxes specifically are still unbalanced in this regard, but it's not nearly as bad as it used to be.
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It ebbs and flows, in my experience.
When there's a big landmark patch, people are gonna kinda explode with activity and passion about it, and a lot of that is gonna be negative because that's generally something you're going to be more likely to post a lot of the time.
When there's more of a lull in content, the forums aren't so bad and more worthwhile conversations can be had. You'll still find some very aggro people, but fewer overall.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Imagine you're playing a shooter, right? An infamously disliked weapon archetype in shooters is shotguns, because they tend to have really high burst damage (sometimes 1-shotting) and require less aim than other weapons. It's generally not fun being blown away by another player that's sitting around a corner or from a range that seems unreasonable for the archetype.
Imagine if, instead of just nerfing the shotguns if they become too problematic/unfun to go against (reducing range, damage, reload, ammo capacity, etc etc) or changing the gameplay structure through additional levers (map design, items that reveal or otherwise flush out people hiding around corners, damage reduction/shield abilities, or making other archetypes simply perform better at a higher level of play) such that shotguns have a niche, but aren't universally effective, imagine they instead made it so that when you use a shotgun you were actively, directly punished for it on a meta level. Maybe you get less points for kills, maybe you give the enemy team a buff to their point gain when they kill you, maybe your entire team gets some sort of inherent penalty that makes it harder to win the game. Something absurd like that.
That's essentially what they're doing with the punishing aspects of this anti-tunnel update. It's extremely bad game design, to the point where it sounds like a child making up rules about a tried and true game like tag on the spot. It reminds me of my niece when she says "this is base, you can't get me here" halfway through an activity. I think we should expect BHVR to think more logically than children, no?
I'm a little late to this response, but I think it's a very good example of how people's perception of tunnelling is consistently pretty off base. Shooters are a good genre to call to here, because while they're obviously not the same, there's some good allusions you can pull from to talk about this problem.
So, shotguns. In this analogy, shotguns aren't tunnelling - shotguns are a contentious and potentially overtuned legitimate core mechanic of this hypothetical shooter.
Tunnelling, by contrast, is not a legitimate core mechanic. It's a balance problem- survivors are left very vulnerable after they're unhooked, and that means a killer initiating a chase on them is gifted an easier chase by virtue of the survivor starting right next to them and already injured, without the killer needing to do anything special to achieve that easier chase, and with the survivor largely being left to defend themselves by being flat better than their opponent by a huge margin. Free value with little counterplay because a killer is trying to avoid the core gameplay loop + wider macro gameplay- very straightforward balance problem.Where does that leave us with the shooter analogy? Simple: It's spawncamping.
In a hypothetical shooter game with analogous problems, we'd see a game where players spawn in predictable spots that have little to no cover. At the beginning of this hypothetical game's lifespan, a player could choose to set up next to the spawn and just pop heads as soon as they load in, before that other player even got the chance to regain control of their character.
Then, a while after release, the developers go for a subtle and gentle fix: You can't take damage until a full second after regaining control of your character. Better, for sure, but… well, if someone's already posted up watching the spawn point, they can delay shooting for a second and you're still basically screwed.In this hypothetical game, this hypothetical change would help lower the level of accidental, incidental spawncamping from players who don't actually know where the spawn points are and just blundered across someone spawning in as they roam the map, but doesn't do that much for most players if their opponents wanted to do this from the start.
So, now the developers are trying something else. You're immune to damage for a lot longer after spawning in and gunfire during that period pings the shooter, so it's actively a bad idea to go for spawncamping and you're encouraged to stick closer to… I don't know, objectives or major structures, the analogy does sort of break down a little this deep in, but you get the point.
In short, a big glaring balance problem does typically require big glaring fixes. It's not like players having access to an overtuned legitimate tool where you can tune its numbers and other balancing factors, and it's not like players ending up in frustrating gameplay dead ends you can subtly direct them away from… it's a flaw players are actively exploiting. You kinda do have to go pretty direct to fix something like that.
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While I could see some of these being potential problems, some of these are absolutely a stretch.
For example, anything you list with the reason starting "If a survivor dies by being hooked twice in a row" is, based on this logic, a non-issue. You don't have to do that, you can just avoid it outright. Don't hook someone twice in a row if it's going to kill them, you'll be fine. You can even slug them, you get 90 seconds to hook someone else.
I also think citing Plot Twist here might be jumping the gun a bit. I do see that survivors could potentially force activation of the basekit pickup system this way, if BHVR didn't account for Plot Twist, but… they have to be on the ground for a really long time to do this, I don't know how scared I'd be of that as a killer.
I'm not saying the 90 seconds then it's infinite proposal is perfect, I could see it being adjusted, but I do think people are not adequately accounting for how long 90 seconds actually is in these contexts.To touch on the killers briefly, while I get that it'd be a feel-bad moment for Sadako if someone misplays so dramatically they're fully Condemned before 6 hooks… I feel people are maybe assuming Sadako can actually do that on a reliable basis by just playing well. She really can't, it's part of her problems.
Pig is also not affected here in the least. RBT head pops are a rarity and not something that is supposed to happen regularly. They're slowdown, they're not lethality.
Pyramid Head could be affected here but I think he hopefully won't be. I would hope BHVR make sure to have his cages count as a hook stage for this new system, though, because if they did he'll be fine.This is a small one, but, Gift of Pain is good because of the repair penalty, you don't need to find the survivor again for it to be a good perk. In fact, you need to ignore them for it to be a good perk.
Leverage is similar. If the implication is that the heal finishes through the heal penalty… then you're getting full value from Leverage.Before I move on to the stuff I could see being an issue for sure, I briefly want to ask, why does everyone act like No Mither or Weaving Spiders makes you easier to tunnel? You're already injured if you're getting tunnelled, that's the whole point of doing it. They're obviously not affected here, outside of No Mither having a recovery speed modifier.
Now, to extend an olive branch to you, I really do think Conviction might be an issue with the new system. Tenacity could too, but I think there's zero chance that isn't one of the perks BHVR are definitely changing since they're literally using its effects for the basekit effect.
Conviction already needed a nerf, and I do think this is going to make that more pressing. I'll also agree the Power Struggle + Flip Flop build is a problem here as well, for the same reason; Power Struggle is already badly designed, this could make it a little worse.We'll have to wait and see which perks are getting changed before freaking out, but a good chunk of this list won't really be affected by people that just aren't tunnelling.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991214#Comment_3991214
I really wish that everyone's escape rates were attached to their forums account.
Because I really just don't understand how you can tell everyone that DS is "basically impossible" to weaponize. I really want to know the context.
I've got a whole thread about this, but the TL;DR would be this:
"Weaponising" DS is 100% trying to bait the killer into picking you up, and you cannot force the killer to do that. Any time someone talks about weaponising DS as thought it gives guaranteed value, they're talking about bodyblocking, not DS.
Not that relevant to the rest of the post, mind you, my points still stand regardless of how you feel about that specific take.
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Why Ghostface?
Anyway, as someone else above me pointed out, Pig's RBTs aren't meant to get kills, they're meant to delay the gens because the threat of being killed pushes survivors to act. She'll be fine.
Sadako's a little different, I would argue, I think Condemned is probably meant to be slightly more reliable as a tool for killing survivors outright, but she still hooks until she can get someone Condemned so I don't think she'll be affected.
One I would mention is Pyramid Head, but I have to assume the devs caught this and made sure his cages count as hooks for this system. If not, he'll be hurt.
I could also see Twins being maybe the single killer in the game who might be at risk of the anti-slug feature, but 90s is a long time even for them.
Broadly though, I think every killer's going to be fine. These changes definitely are potentially scary, but they do seem fairly well designed with only a few potential issues that could be ironed out on the PTB.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991157#Comment_3991157
Incorrect. People currently weaponize anti-tunnel tools because it adds more second chances to the chases. A survivor running at a killer with DS, doesn't actually think they have a guaranteed chase escape after the DS triggers. They know the killer is likely to eventually win the chase.
Likewise, there will be survivors that would absolutely weaponize being double hooked, because if the killer tries to actively avoid killing a survivor before 6 hook, then a double hooked survivor is fairly safe against being killed early. It would basically punish killers that "try to play nice".
And no one literally stopped post-unhook bodyblocking, because the collision removal is temporary. And survivors can purposely remove elusive early if they wanted to. A recently unhooked survivor could tap their medkit before their teammates 100% heal them, to allow the recently unhooked survivor to bodyblock early.
Right, it adds more chances to the chase without them getting hooked.
Someone trying to weaponise DS will, well, fail, that's basically impossible these days unless the killer makes a mistake, but their goal is to avoid being hooked outright (or just to have fun, some people just like baiting stuns). Same with bodyblocking- they do it with Endurance because it allows them to not go down and not have to trade away a hook state.
That's also why bodyblocking has been fixed here. They can absolutely cancel their loss of collision… and their Endurance. They'd just go down here, it stops being to their benefit.All of this is besides the point, though. The point is, trying to weaponise being double-hooked is entirely dependant on how good the bonuses they're denying you getting are. A hook state is a valuable thing to trade, they need to be getting something substantial to make up for it and we don't know if that's actually going to be the case.
It could easily be that the bonuses are nice, and very helpful for the course of regular play, but they're not better than just getting a free hook state.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991148#Comment_3991148
- People are already weaponizing anti-tunnel perks, so it's already worth it for some people. It's the #1 killer complaint about anti-tunneling, and BHVR didn't care at all about it.
- Rule 2 of anti-tunneling is worded awkwardly, and it looks like even if the killer is at 8 hooks a 0 kills, if the most recently hooked survivor gets killed, penalty 2 still happens.
- The game really should detect if a survivor is purposely trying to bodyblock the killer, and remove all anti-tunneling protections if they are doing so. Maybe have the detection paused while the survivor is elusive, but survivors should not be purposely trying to weaponize their anti-tunneling perks, when the killer is actively trying to chase someone else.
?
What do any of these things have to do with my point…?
My point is, specifically only denying the killer the fresh hook bonuses MIGHT be worth trading away a hook state, but we can't say for sure until we see how good those bonuses are. If they're only of decent strength, it's not really worth the hook stage you're trading away.
People weaponise some anti-tunnel tools because they DON'T have to trade away their hook state to do it, at least if it's done effectively.Though as an aside, they're literally stopping post-unhook bodyblocking from being possible by removing collision, so that one's fixed.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991143#Comment_3991143
Fine. I'll edit the post. It's still punishing the survivor by denying the bonus.
A little, but they are giving up a hook state to do it.
I'd say we can't really say if that's a worthwhile trade until we've seen the numbers for what the bonuses are, personally.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990937#Comment_3990937
It's not free when the killer gets a penalty for hooking the same survivor twice, and loses a reward for hooking the same survivor twice.
And survivor already weaponize anti-tunnel perks, and this gives them extra reasons to do so.
The penalty is only if you kill that survivor, to be fair. First hook → second hook only denies you the bonus for unique hooks.
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@Barbarossa2020 said:
My question would be, if survs are getting a gen repair buff based upon a dead team mate, then shouldn’t they get a penality based upon how many gens are done if everyone is alive?
Eg, 4 survs alive 3 gens done, shouldn’t progression slow down?
Those gens already do slow down, broadly speaking- the killer has more pressure that late in the game, they've chewed through more resources to create more deadzones, they've injured and downed and hooked survivors to drag their teammates off gens, etc.
The repair buff being proposed in this dev update is a safeguard against the killer securing an early lead that can't be overcome, and there is an equivalent of that on the other side but it's not related to how many gens have been done and how many survivors are alive, it's related to "did they all bring toolboxes specifically".
For the record, should still be fixed.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990518#Comment_3990518
[…] I don't personally feel it overcomes the fact that the killer basically just got to chase two survivors for free without giving up much in return.
Well, it certainly is your opinion. In reality, every second counts, as you are literally in a time limit (kill them before they finish the gens), and even hitting a survivor is time spent.
If someone just unhooked bodyblocks you and makes your current chase longer without the possibility of being able to hook him, all this while gens are still rolling, you are not chasing two survivors for free, they are wasting your time for free by making your chase longer and not even having the chance of hooking the blocking survivor. If that downed survivor gets up and interrupts you again, it's more wasted time for free. And even if you decide to not let him waste your time and hook him, he literally took away all your new basekit buffs for unique hooking.
However you look at it, it's an exploitable mechanic that allows them to put you in a lose / lose situation.
In most cases, the protection-hit level of distance survivors can get from someone bodyblocking isn't a huge chase extension. It certainly can be […]
You said it yourself: It can result in a huge chase extension, especially for non-high mobility killers. It is an effective strategy now, even more so when they are able to put you in a position where wasting your time is not even the biggest benefit of doing it.
[…] but it has a higher-than-equal chance of backfiring too
That was before they were able to…
- Negate your new and shining basekit buffs that are super useful and totally balanced with the changes implemented to the other side.
- Give all their friends a match-long repair buff.
- Prevent you from regressing or blocking any gens for the rest of the match.
- All of the above.
If you hooked the blocking survivor. Now? It is pure benefit, starting with the waste of time.
[…] I'm perfectly okay with that risk existing in the game
I'm not. I don't want exploitable basekit mechanics in the game for any side.
I don't even know where to start with the notion of two bodyblockers, though. That's just the survivors throwing to try and bully the killer, no two ways around it.
Except even now they can win doing this with the use of perks. Just imagine what a well-organized SWF will do with all the free stuff. As a side note, I miss the times when bully squads needed to throw a match if they wanted to bully.
For the other effects you mention… I don't really see how any of them are going to help with bodyblocking. After an unhook you literally can't bodyblock […]
Get through the killer, use a medkit / botany for one second, and voila! Bodyblocking with free Endurance as conspicuous actions doesn't remove it. Add an anti-hemorrhagic syringe for funsies.
Losing a bunch of tracking options on a survivor is irrelevant when they're hovering right in front of you trying to stop you from chasing their teammate, y'know?
But it is super good for chasing the killer unnoticed while reading his aura and reporting that information to your mates in Discord and finding him to chase him to bodyblock, you know? That's what I meant. I never said they were useful for the bodyblocking itself.
It's only the threat of the anti-tunnel penalty that they'd have to sway your actions, and at that point we return to Slug 'Em All 1989 I Am Machete Man.
Except it is easier than ever to get up from the dying state, whether alone or with help. And if you don't, after 90 seconds you get Unbreakable for free, which will make it even easier to get up and keep trying to force a hook while wasting your time.
I think it is not hard to understand.
Bodyblocking is obviously a non-issue now after an unhook, and survivors trying to throw themselves at you still leaves you with options to handle them.
No, you don't have any options to handle them, as all the options you have are against you. That's the problem.
And if you think bodyblocking is such a non-issue, you haven't played against enough bully squads and / or good SWF. That, or you only use high-mobility killers. Good bodyblocking and protection hits can make you lose a match.
And even if it wasn't, again, this is only one example of the multiple ways survivors can (and will) exploit this new basekit mechanics on paper. We will have to see how things go on the PTB.
So, a clarifying point.
We cannot in good faith talk about bodyblocking from aggressive just-unhooked survivors without acknowledging it isn't instant and they don't get to teleport. When I talk about getting to chase two survivors without giving much in return, I'm talking about the process of attempting to bodyblock.
Sure, a survivor that swoops in at the right moment to bodyblock and then vanishes back into the mist to go do generators is definitely harming your chase, no two ways about it. That's just not the scenario we're talking about- we're talking about someone following you around after they're unhooked and trying to get into a position where you have to hit them in order to keep moving.Even when they are capable of doing that, which frankly is only even realistically doable on every map because Shack entrance can be blocked this way, it still takes time following you around to set it up. That's time off gens, and I don't think the average attempt pays off in the least.
For an example of what I'm talking about here, think about flashlight saves. For every one smart and successful flashlight save that provides big value… there's nine flubbed saves from someone that was following the killer around for the whole chase losing time and value for their team. It's the same with this kind of bodyblocking.
Even assuming someone wants to bodyblock after an unhook and is willing to forfeit all the anti-tunnel protections to do it, they still have to try and get in position and that isn't guaranteed to happen soon enough for them not to be losing time overall.
(Though, as an aside, using a medkit absolutely turns off Endurance, healing is a Conspicuous Action. They'd NEED to use the Endurance syringe for this to work.)
This all ties in to the slugging point. Yes, they can get up from the dying state (though the new proposed way of doing that is really slow, it must be said), but that time is on top of the time they spent getting themselves into this position to begin with.
It's not something that'll never work, but realistically, it isn't nearly as "free value" as some make it out to be. Survivors swarming you is broadly a good thing, even if it's annoying to face and can easily fluster you into making mistakes.
Raising the barrier for entry for bodyblocking by making it impossible with the basekit features and requiring the use of a specific item with a specific addon is also weakening this strategy, not improving it. Nothing in this new proposal is going to make it worse.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990544#Comment_3990544
Tenacity: Increased crawling speed from the start, or higher increased overall crawling speed. Possible that crawling reduces healing speed and tenacity would negate that.
Off The Record: this perk still seems fine. The longer endurance and the fact that undetectable (i.e. elusive) lasts after a conspicuous action still makes it viable.
DS: This seems to need to change unless it just becomes 'try and bait the killer into this'.
Random thought: if you are on death hook, and no survivor has been killed, this perk activates. The perk deactivates after use or when any survivor dies.
StB: Still think this can be used without much change. Trading a hook with a death hook survivor is still worthwhile.
Babysitter: Yeah, this doesn't seem to have as much value, though the ability to see the killer on unhook is still nice. Just go all the way and make it reverse babysitter where the unhooker gets the increased speed to get away.
Pop: Potentially we're just back to the 30% regression, just with a portion of it being basekit.
BBQ: they bring back the bloodpoint bonus and nothing else :)
I am curious what they'll do with this. It still has some value as you can see all survivors, not just those at equal or less hook states, but a massive nerf to this perk without changes. You could allow it to show survivors in lockers as a counter to the counter.
That's my random speculation. Tuesday is going to be an interesting day when we see the specifics.
I've said for a while that BBQ should get its stacks back, but instead of BP (which would honestly be kinda overkill in the current state of the game), it should shrink the "deadzone" around the hook by a set amount per stack. Probably just from 40m down to 32m at max stacks, nothing crazy but enough for the perk to feel like it's building in power again.
Stacks are just nice to get in general.
I'm actually really curious about some of these perks too, though, there's some stuff that could feasibly stay the same but that BHVR might change anyway just for a bit of variety. Really looking forward to these patch notes, for sure.
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Twenty seems pretty high ngl
Tenacity on the survivor side for sure, and you could argue Off The Record too. Maybe toss in Decisive Strike and Shoulder The Burden as well, that seems fair- if this system works you might still have cause to use, say, Babysitter, but those other three are far more directly affected.
On the killer side… BBQ? Pop? Most of what's proposed for killer would hypothetically be more worth using alongside the perks that most resemble them to me.
I do think the conversation about how this'll affect the perk meta is pretty interesting to think about though, I'd love to know which perks you were thinking of here!
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There's a difference between being forced into just one playstyle, and being forced out of just one specific action, which is what's actually happening to killers here.
I'm actually completely in favour of continuing the trend. I suggest the one specific thing we should force survivors away from is unhookable build nonsense, I think that's a pretty reasonable equivalent here.
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@Kitsunenokage66 said:
What's to stop survivors from letting the first person to get hook DIE on hook to proc this? Because if they just are never unhooked, both of these will go into effect.
To be fair, they'd be down an entire survivor.
We don't know what that repair speed bonus looks like, and it'd have to be MASSIVE to make that actually worth doing on purpose.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990132#Comment_3990132
You are not taking into account all the options, just reducing it to one specific scenario. For example, you didn't consider that with the new crawling speed and being in a SWF, he can crawl to his closest friend AND he will still keep recovering. Meaning, his friend can finish whatever percentage the gen has left, catch him midway, and instantly get him up. All this while, technically, one other survivor is undisturbed doing gens. Another thing you didn't think of is that they can have 2 bodyblocker loopers covering up for each other and wasting your time, or that they only need to force him to hook the same survivor twice to already benefit from this strategy (no "unique hook" buffs for the killer).
In fact, like you said, they already use tactics like this right now with perks like OTR and DS effectively. Just imagine when they have a bunch of free perks and effects on top of it that make it even better (and fun for the killer, of course). Other thing you forgot to take in count is that there are map zones and tiles where is impossible to ignore the bodyblocking survivor without giving the other survivor a lot of distance. And now he can literally go through you to position himself.
Also, here's an addendum of exploitable things to take into account. This is the list of all the "conspicuous actions" that will deactivate all the new effects survivors get on unhook, including no collision with the killer:
- Cleansing a Totem
- Blessing a Totem
- Healing yourself or other Survivors
- Opening an Exit Gate
- Performing an Invocation
- Repairing a Generator
- Sabotaging a Hook
- Unhooking other Survivors
Notice something missing here? That's right! Using an item is NOT a conspicuous action. Meaning, there is nothing preventing them from flashlighting you, or even better, exploiting the fact that a flashbang dropped inside the killer is unavoidable to do saves while still maintaining all the unhooking effects.
I really hope they thought about this and change it when they implement the other things, or they basically just made one of the most overpowered bug exploits in the game basekit with added free Iron Will. Nice job.
EDIT: And now there is this…
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989546#Comment_3989546
So, if you manage to "immobilise" that survivor 90 seconds one time, then they get Unbreakable for free to keep "just annoying" you the rest of the match. Well thought changes, 10 out of 10. Keep trying to defend it.
So, a couple things.
First, while you're right that the basekit Tenacity would lessen the impact of being made to crawl to a teammate, for sure… I don't personally feel it overcomes the fact that the killer basically just got to chase two survivors for free without giving up much in return.
In most cases, the protection-hit level of distance survivors can get from someone bodyblocking isn't a huge chase extension. It certainly can be, but it has a higher-than-equal chance of backfiring too, I'm perfectly okay with that risk existing in the game, it allows for very interactive big-swing plays. It's really just the Tenacity that affects this, too.I don't even know where to start with the notion of two bodyblockers, though. That's just the survivors throwing to try and bully the killer, no two ways around it.
For the other effects you mention… I don't really see how any of them are going to help with bodyblocking. After an unhook you literally can't bodyblock (It's not "moving through the killer to get in position", it's… not being able to bodyblock because the killer can walk through you), and even discounting that, the other effects are stealth-oriented and not bodyblock-oriented.
Losing a bunch of tracking options on a survivor is irrelevant when they're hovering right in front of you trying to stop you from chasing their teammate, y'know? It just doesn't make a difference here, and it's a moot point anyway because in order to bodyblock at all they need to get rid of their extra effects by doing a Conspicuous Action.It's only the threat of the anti-tunnel penalty that they'd have to sway your actions, and at that point we return to Slug 'Em All 1989 I Am Machete Man.
When you talk about the lack of collision setting up flashlight saves and flashbang saves: I agree! This is the big concern I have, and the one thing I think really needs careful attention on the PTB. If there isn't something in place not mentioned in this update to stop this, it'll need very insistent pointing out to BHVR to make sure something happens between PTB and live.
That is a possible problem and a really potent one too.It's just, y'know, the only possible problem I can see, at least with anti-tunnel. Bodyblocking is obviously a non-issue now after an unhook, and survivors trying to throw themselves at you still leaves you with options to handle them. I'm open to there being more problems that become apparent on the PTB, but on paper, I'm not that concerned.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990214#Comment_3990214
It is a massive in-direct buff if you look at these changes from every other angle. They will likely become more noticeable to you when you realize how important for a killer to have any sort of gen regression and how massive it is for survivors when gens can no longer get regressed against a large list of killers, particularly M1 ones. All that will become possible because developers try to dictate how killers should be playing their game.
If their intention was to protect people from being tunneled by any means, they could had granted the recently unhooked survivor full immunity for 60 seconds unless they do any conspicuous action. There, a rather simple and sensible solution where killer would now have to waste 120 seconds of their time just to tunnel a single guy out without any need to juggle around survivors and be punished for hooking someone twice or getting any early kills for whatever reason. Instead, devs introduced this entire nonsense.
Okay, so, first of all, completely different scenario to the one you discussed first. Gen regression not working isn't a buff to lasting in chase or hiding, not even indirectly. The repair speed bonus could be argued to be an indirect buff here, but it wouldn't be helpful or constructive to take that lens.
Second, those things only come into play if you tunnel someone out, which means there are two broad things to say about it.
1: You still have someone dead, so. You're not exactly necessarily doomed to lose even in the worst case scenario.
2: You have complete control and agency over not being in this scenario to begin with. Sure, I'll buy that cheeky 4-man groups might try and force the issue, but they can't actually force you to hook someone if you choose not to.Third, I mean, the developers do get to dictate how people play their game. A good developer will roll with the playerbase to a certain degree, but it's completely within their mandate to step in and say "this one specific thing is not legitimate" before doing something about it.
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@FabledSpider said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990214#Comment_3990214
what he is saying is if a survivor you have already hooked twice makes a mistake and you haven’t hooked many people you are supposed to say “cool be on your way” instead of taking the opportunity when you see it.
Sure, but that's almost the polar opposite of what they're saying.
They're saying that losing chases quickly and not being able to hide is a skill issue. This statement is broadly true in a vacuum, but completely irrelevant here- survivors aren't getting buffs to help them last longer in chase or hide better, they're getting buffs to stop them from being as vulnerable immediately after they're unhooked, because that isn't a skill issue. It's a balance issue.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990175#Comment_3990175
All this is pretty much giving a survivor a free ''hall pass''.
If we gonna talk about not finding survivor being a skill issue, then we should also talk about being bad at hiding, looping and running being a skill issue too.
You're the second person to say that to me, but survivors aren't getting any buffs in those areas, so I don't really understand the point.
Hell, survivors are arguably going to be made very slightly worse at hiding because of the killer buffs proposed in this patch. Only slightly, but it's there.
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@FabledSpider said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990175#Comment_3990175
not finding survivors is as much of a skill issue as losing a chase quickly so why do survivors need a buff because they can’t win their chases?
Also you understand this update also has anti slugging changes. Your method to not get screwed by the anti tunnelling changes is to slug them instead? So what do you want us to do slug or not to slug?
Survivors aren't getting buffs related to losing chases quickly…? Not sure what you're talking about there. You're also treading a little into whataboutism here - what would you say if I agreed with that? It wouldn't work as refuting my point, and you'd in fact be agreeing that I'm right in that case.
For your second point, "anti slug" isn't all or nothing. It's not "slugging has no restrictions" or "you cannot slug at all", and the proposed changes still would allow you to leave someone on the ground if you want or need to. You just can't rely on them being there until they bleed out, especially if you're trying to do it to multiple survivors at once.
If you're in the scenario where you've misplayed to the point of only having the person fresh off hook nearby, you can still slug. It'll give you less than it would on the live servers right now, but it still does work to your benefit. -
I've only skimmed the later responses to this thread so I may be repeating others' points, but I want to point out that your scenario here makes two massive assumptions.
First, "You hook survivor A but can't find B, C, or D". Let's talk about this- why can't you find them? I did read far enough to know someone pointed out that these proposed changes also include basekit information to help you out here, and they also brought up that there are a lot of other tools.
To reinforce that point, not being able to find survivors is pretty much just a skill issue. You should have a good idea of at least where some survivors are, and if you know that's something you struggle with, you should bring perks that complement this to better track survivors.I don't say this to denigrate you, it's encouraging - this is in your control, you can fix this problem.
Second, "Survivor A wanders into you and you hook them again". This glosses over that you don't have to do this, you can choose to down them and then leave them there on the ground to avoid penalties. Sure, they won't stay on the ground forever, but that's still to your benefit.
You have more agency in this process than you might think. Spreading pressure is already good, and it's set to get buffs- you're gonna do fine, and there's no shame in crowdsourcing advice if you're not sure what you're doing wrong.
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@Batusalen said:
Can someone explain to me how anybody at BHVR looked at this and thought "Good work"? Because at least on paper, I can figure out a dozen ways survivors can abuse all of this already.
For instance, what prevents SWF from doing this:
- Chose an initial "sacrifice" at the start of the match that will dedicate to just bodyblocking the killer and getting protection hits to force the killer to down and hook him. If someone is hooked after the initial sacrifice, it becomes the new sacrifice.
- After the first hook, now he is practically invisible and silent and free to follow the killer, even see his aura for free to tell his friends where he is until he has to bodyblock again.
- Repeat this process over and over. If the killer dares to last hook him, now he won't be able to even kick the few gens that are left to be done while his friends have bonus repair and will grant the rest of the team bonus repair on top of perks and toolboxes.
- Combine this with Endurance perks, DS and Power Struggle to increase the fun factor for the killer.
- ???
- Profit
Good job, BHVR. Super healthy, non exploitable or one-sided changes at all. But hey, at least now killers get a little haste and aura reading after hooking, right?…
Reading this, personally my first thought is "I'd probably just slug that person".
I know there's anti-slug in this update, but it's not designed to make that slugging less effective. If the survivor trying to be a nuisance and bodyblock me chasing their teammates is actually capable of doing it effectively (which is a BIG if, a lot of the time you just ignore them), then like… smack 'em.
They're now immobilised for 90 seconds, or they drag someone off a gen to pick them up. Even the worst case scenario here of them having Unbreakable is not actually bad for you, you're still occupying two survivors at once + forcing them to use up their perk charge.
I'd certainly agree this attempt would be annoying as hell, but I think it's premature to conclude the killer would be helpless to stop this attempt from happening. You're not exactly going to be left unable to avoid the anti-tunnel penalties here, it's pretty easy on paper to answer this.
Honestly, it isn't even really that different from now, just with the possibilities of a harsh penalty if you fall for the bait.
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I mean, it's not that hard to follow.
Myers has an increased lunge in Tier 3 → Myers gets an increased lunge style attack in his equivalent of Tier 3.
This is always how Myers has been designed, I know it's charged like Ambush now but it really is just a more codified version of his increased lunge. I'm not saying you have to like it obviously, it's just fairly straightforward how they came to this idea for his rework.
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@Coffee2Go said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989965#Comment_3989965
Yeah but does the whole hook cycle refresh upon hooking a 2nd unique survivor or what since it would really game breaking and unfair and can be misused and abused heavily if the unhooked person decided to like do healing action or loot or stuff to remove their protection and then stand in way of killer.
Like im trying to make sense here because i can imagine the horrors here based off my personal experience from my matches in higher mmr where users with OTR would use that + their unhook protection to take hits.
What is there to stop them from weaponizing this new systems in place when lets say u hit them and then u injure and then down, should i just let them be on ground and do my best to down a 2nd unique survivor? And then what happens when i hook that person again to be on his 2nd dying state hook.
I'm not sure I'm following you properly, but yes, the hook "cycle" refreshes on hooking someone else. It only matters who your last hook was here, as long as you don't hook the same survivor twice in a row you'll get the bonuses and you'll avoid the penalties, as I understand it.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989945#Comment_3989945
so basically people on death hook can slam gens with no downside. so now you can run a gen rush build and specifically leave them on hook to 2nd stage and the killer cannot hook them again or their screwed also pair this with shoulder + vigil to do it again you can just enforce a toxic playstyle
…Just hook someone else first, and then you can go target them. They're not untouchable, they just can't be your next hook if you want to avoid penalties.
@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989927#Comment_3989927
Thats STILL dumb since even in that scenario, its not tunneling. The idea that you can 2 hook everyone and get hit with a tunneling penalty for killing the "wrong" survivor is kinda ridiculous.
I mean, it could be tunnelling, it depends on if you're chasing them as they're unhooked or not.
Broadly though, the "penalty" is pretty minor if you've actually two-hooked everyone. You don't need gen regression at that point, everyone's already on death hook. You're only even in a close scenario if the last gen pops, otherwise you're completely fine.
I'm not saying everything about this system is fine, we can't say that until we know the numbers, but I think that part's fairly elegant. It's a huge penalty if it happens early, but borderline inconsequential if it happens after two-hooking everyone.
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@Coffee2Go said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989939#Comment_3989939
Yeah rotate zone out gens and locate survivors.
Yes i have read the rest of update as it includes bbq baseline and such.
Im still under impression that im supposed to just not touch the person that got unhooked at all until i got 4 unique hooks?
Am i missing the point or what since its written that if tunnel aka go for 2nd hook state on same survivor that was unhook all survivors get repair speed perma bonus
Do i have to let them go or what?
Like generally speaking only thing i can do is let them be slugged now on ground until i managed to find and hook a 2nd unique survivor and let them bleed on ground while i do that under 90 seconds or else they get up?
Same goes if they go afk and purposly camp hook.
Its a bit confusing changes that have plotholes
Ah. You should maybe be focusing on the survivors and not the gens, it'll leave you with less dead air and wasted time.
I don't think the implication is that you need four unique hooks before you target anyone else, you just shouldn't be targeting people who were just unhooked and you shouldn't be hooking the same person multiple times in a row. That's how I'm reading it, you're penalised for killing someone early and penalised extra if you kill them by hooking them twice in a row.
I think that might be your misunderstanding - the penalty is for KILLING survivors. All that happens if you go first hook → second hook on the same survivor is you don't get the bonuses for unique hooks, so no info or haste or what have you.
At least, again, that is my understanding.
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@darkwiredheart said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989927#Comment_3989927
And what if no one rescues them? They die on hook and if you wasn't quick enough to get another hook in (2 mins If I remember right) then they are your last hook and survivors get both bonuses, faster gen speeds and no regression. Can happen in a 3-man swf where they let the random die just to get bonuses.
I have no idea?
This is the kind of thing we'd test on the PTB, nobody's gonna have answers for that yet.
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@terumisan said:
wait time out i think i'm illiterate with that last part
>if the survivor that was last hooked is sacrificed or killed generators can't be regressed or blocked
what does this mean? it's vague
Imagine your last hook was Jake, and you're out looking for someone else. Jake comes off the hook, and he's now on death hook, if he's hooked again he's dead.
If you return to Jake and hook him without hooking anyone else in between, you're locked out of regressing and blocking generators.
That's how I interpret it, anyway.
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@Coffee2Go said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989932#Comment_3989932
Yeah but what about high mmr lobbies where you cant just simply NOT go for the person that stumbles upon where u rotate as a killer?
Like do i purposly go out of my way not hooking them and waste my precious scarce time and look for other survivors and by the time i find last 2 to complete unique hooks what then?
Am i then not allowed to touch that fourth one i just hooked as unique hook?
Like what the hell even
Rotate…?
Anyway, the rest of the update does include stuff to help you find survivors. Basekit info on where other survivors are and Haste to get to them quickly is really useful on paper, it'll set up killer pressure significantly easier. It's a giant buff and the closest to "handholding" any patch over the past few years has included, you'll be doing just fine.
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@Jay_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989927#Comment_3989927
Regardless though even if you do trigger the kill before 6 hooks never being able to damage a gen you might as well hand the win to the survivors. Faster gen speed and can't kick to regress them meaning so many perks are useless.
The six hooks part gives survivors a repair bonus, it doesn't lock you out of regression.
That part is also just "don't tunnel", for most killers. It might negatively affect a handful depending on how it handles their powers, but for the majority that part really is just "don't tunnel".
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I think you might've misread part of it, regarding no longer being able to regress generators.
It's not - as I understand it - that it's any time you kill a survivor, it's if the survivor who was on hook last is hooked again + killed.
To put it another way, imagine your last four hooks look like this: Jake most recent, Dwight before him, Meg before him, Claudette before her. Now imagine they're all on death hook.
If you hook JAKE, you're locked out of regression. If you hook anyone else, regression still works for you.
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I am the first to complain about the numerous dash killers we get, and I've been the first to complain about specifically killers becoming dash killers in reworks when that isn't their identity… but I don't think that's happening here.
Myers already had a version of this. Tier 3 has always (or at least for as long as I've been playing) had an extended lunge duration/distance, that's always been his major strength to leverage alongside the Exposed. Doing this to Myers isn't unoriginal and it isn't stripping him of his identity, it's leaning in to his identity by letting his already existing chase power be a bit more defined and impactful.
That's not to say I'll necessarily agree with every aspect of the implementation, but the notion of turning Myers' extended lunge into a more defined ability with its own name and input method isn't the same as, say, the Skull Merchant preview or the fact that new killers very consistently have dash powers over anything else.
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@Chinpokoman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989684#Comment_3989684
???????? They only lose collision for like 10-15 seconds. Whats to stop them from knowing they are on death hook before 6 hooks and just following you around being a nuisance? What if you are playing trapper and they follow you around disarming traps? You can't even slug them because of the anti-slug changes and you can't hook them or you give the entire team a repair bonus and can't regress gens anymore its absolutely ridiculous.
I don't know why all those question marks, you're just raising different potential problems to OP here.
For the record: Yeah, could be a problem, I'm unsure. You definitely CAN slug them, you have 90 seconds where they either have to get someone else to pick them up or use a perk to do it, that's still in your favour. But, at the same time, they very well might be able to push you into annoying scenarios by trying to get you to hook them, so.
We'll have to see.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989810#Comment_3989810
I mean ive gotten a condemned kill at 0 hooks before because of poor survivors plays....
Like I said, I could see it maybe being a problem, but it strikes me as a problem you'll see once in a blue moon and not something that really negatively affects the killer in every other match, y'know?
Sadako does still hook, even when spreading Condemned.
Of course, it's also worth mentioning that Sadako really needs a proper update anyways, so maybe that's planned later down the line or something.