jesterkind
jesterkind
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My read on BHVR's intentions is that they fundamentally balance it as a casual game (not a party game- I'd argue there's a pretty important distinction between those two terms), but they're aware of and encourage the comp scene as well. So, most balance changes aim towards the middle, players just enjoying the core mechanics and gameplay without trying to optimise or sweat their ass off to win, but they'll make some adjustments and additions to help out the comp scene where it's possible to do so without harming the casual playerbase.
I think the fact that this game is completely lacking anything that even halfway resembles a ranked mode should be the biggest indication that this is fundamentally supposed to be a more casual experience. Nothing wrong with trying to win within that framework, obviously, but there's nothing but self-directed incentives for any kind of approach.
No ranks to climb, no rewards for doing well, no ability to equalise the playing field prior to a match (think map bans, that kind of thing), no restrictions to keep loadouts fair. People sweat in the current landscape, sure, but the game isn't doing anything to encourage or reward it.Certainly, a casual game can form a competitive scene without that being the intention or overall balance philosophy- hell, so can party games, Smash Bros has huge tournaments. That existing doesn't really tell us much about what priorities the game's developers have, though.
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@stikyard said:
I thought you needed to earn tokens for Distortion to work now. How do you do that at the start of the match?
You start with a token. Distortion counters Lethal Pursuer, then you're out of tokens and need to get them via chase.
Which, ftr, doesn't take very long, Distortion's still a perfectly good perk and one I run consistently.
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@brewingtea said:
there does need to be
somethingthat people will call a punishmentThis is the problem. Everyone says, "We need an alternative to tunneling."
So, the ask is that we give killers a NEW tool (or buff an existing one to be) more powerful than tunneling currently is. This mechanic has to be less punishing (i.e. more fun) for survivors, while leaving tunneling in the game as a backup. (Because if this new thing is too hard to perform, killers will just resort back to tunneling which is free.)
With such restrictive parameters, I have yet to see a SINGLE SUGGESTION that will be even remotely feasible.
If we add a new tool that is as powerful as tunnelling, haven't we just shifted the problem from tunnelling to whatever the new thing is?
Again, tunnelling isn't just an unpleasant experience, it's unbalanced. It's too powerful. Trying to incentivise killers away from tunnelling is the wrong call- nothing that isn't itself too strong would be appealing, and tunnelling would still exist in the game as a backup, that many people would still use anyway because they wouldn't have to change their gameplay.
Tunnelling existing is the problem, at least in its current form. If you can still stack the chase in your favour by chasing someone who was just unhooked, the problem hasn't been fixed.
In short, we don't need an alternative to tunnelling, we need tunnelling to not exist.
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While this is an okay idea on paper (I think these numbers are probably way too powerful though unless all regression perks are deleted from the game alongside it), it doesn't outweigh the power of having someone dead early and it doesn't address the balance issue that allows killer players to achieve that state easily.
Tunnelling isn't just a mildly unpleasant tactic we want to disincentivise, it's an outright balance problem allowing for easily cheesed wins without much counterplay (outside of some varyingly-effective perks, which is its own issue). That part does also need addressing at the same time, or we're not really going to see tunnelling disappear. Slightly reduced, maybe, but slightly reduced isn't good enough.
The act of trying to chase someone as soon as they're unhooked does need to get much harder if we want to address this problem, so there does need to be something that people will call a punishment. Most of what was on that PTB was pretty workable, just needed scaling back and a few details being removed if we want to be safe.
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I've always understood the larger terror radius to not be about map mobility, but rather to be about how quickly they could travel from the edge of their terror radius to right on top of you.
If they do that quickly enough with a regular terror radius size, it doesn't give the survivor much time to react and try to avoid getting hit. If you recall, this was the big problem with post-buff Hillbilly- that's an extreme example, but it's a good idea of what the risk is if killers aren't given a terror radius that accounts for their jumpscare ability, effectively.
While Wesker's map mobility isn't that good, his ability to get from the edge of where his terror radius would be (especially with Monitor & Abuse, which does need to be considered for these discussions) to really close to the survivor very quickly is quite potent.The real questions are why this applies to Myers, who has no mobility of any kind, and why it doesn't apply to Nurse. For the former I suspect it's for thematic reasons, the latter… no clue.
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Not that I'm defending the nerf - I think it's pretty unnecessary even if the perk is still pretty good - but it is worth pointing out that the game changed around M&A.
For instance, multiple killers got changed terror radius sizes, some bigger some smaller, and that affects how good the perk is on them. It's not impossible that M&A could end up being too good on certain killers after changes like that.
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I hope they get a buff to their consistency across realms. If you use a current Fog Vial on some realms, it honestly isn't all that bad- I still don't agree with making it limited use and it'd need at least one extra use if it is limited, but outside of that, the opacity and other effects are reasonably powerful.
…But if you use it on some other realms, the opacity is so worthless the item only functions as a pocket Shadow Step, and that's not really enough with the current parameters for it to be a worthwhile item.
I want more than consistent opacity, but that change is probably the most important overall.
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I definitely agree with Trapper, he's the face of the game and I think NRS would have a reasonable amount of leeway designing stuff for him to do. I'm sure a basic gameplan of giving him ground projectiles and traps followed by good anti-airs would be completely workable.
Edit: What am I talking about? It's NRS, they'd pick Huntress, easiest "make them a zoner" of that studio's life. Alternately, Nurse, they love teleports.
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Not that I'm defending the new rift (it's shockingly empty) but it's only been, what, two days? Official responses can take a little longer than that sometimes, if they feel the need to comment at all.
Which I hope they do. I'd love to know what on earth is going on there.
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011992#Comment_4011992
I need to add that sometimes the survivors will spawn on the same side of the map as you, but in the opposite corner
True- it's not foolproof, but it's a good rule of thumb to start from.
Lethal really is a fantastic perk for these reasons, haha.
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If BHVR could negotiate specifically using the Vertigo version of Constantine and not the DC one, that'd be one of my dream licenses.
I would love to see some DC characters too, though. A long time ago I pitched Harper Row as Gotham's survivor rep, with the logic that she's a little less powered and hyper-competent than a lot of the other caped individuals in that town and also, crucially, because I love her.
For matching killer, I'd pick Scarecrow. Lots to do there for a power, suitably horrifying for DBD, still recognisable enough for people not to react with "who?" when they see it.Good opportunities for skins, too. Joker skin for Trickster, Punchline skin for Legion, various cosplay skins for the survivors, so on.
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If I might give a bit of advice, it sounds more like you're struggling with starting and maintaining pressure rather than generator speeds being a problem.
To start, doing a full patrol around the generator spread at the start of the game is a massive waste of time. Survivors broadly spawn on the opposite side of the map to you- going straight towards where you estimate they spawned is a considerably better use of your time because you can get someone in chase much quicker, which means someone on hook much quicker, which means someone peeling off their gen to save while you chase someone else…
If you own the perk Lethal Pursuer it's incredible for helping you set up early game pressure, I use it all the time myself.Patrolling generators in general can be a bit of a trap. There's no denying that sometimes you'll need to do it in order to find someone, but it's important to remember that your objective is survivors and any time you can just go straight to a survivor to chase them, you're playing leagues better than walking between generators with nobody on them.
Information perks in general are indispensable here, they let you skip a lot of the downtime of trying to find people manually.Generally, the most important thing to remember overall is that gens fly if survivors are left uninterrupted to do them. Your job is to be that interruption, by directly chasing them or by creating circumstances they're forced to react to like someone on the hook.
Downs and hooks slow down gens, and time spent not being in a chase or doing something else productive is just free generator time for survivors. -
@TragicSolitude said:
I miss the Tomes. They encouraged my friend and I to play together.
Since the Tomes were replaced with the Quest system, my friend and I barely play together. Or at all, really. The Quest system is just not fun. These are daily chores that are required for grinding a battlepass that BHVR puts less and less effort into. The more they screw up the actual gameplay with their changes, the more needy the grind becomes to prevent their players from taking an extended break.
BHVR doesn't want casual players who play a couple long sessions on the weekend. They want players who log in every day and make their player numbers look good. So here we have the trap for casuals: the Rift. Hardcore players either don't care about the Rift or they'll earn it without thinking about it. This thing is predatory towards casual players. Log in daily and do your chores. It doesn't matter that players aren't having fun, that they're feeling frustrated and burned out, and that the Rift rewards aren't even worth the effort they demand.
The damn Rift Pass quest rewards also require players complete every single weekly Rift Pass quest for that final reward. Every single one. The Tomes used to let players choose a path to reach the end, and those weren't time limited.
This forced participation FOMO garbage is really ticking me off. Really. These aren't accidents, these aren't bugs, these are choices. Deliberate choices made for very apparent reasons. And it's not for the good of the playerbase, it's not for players to have fun. These design choices create short term positive outcomes for DbD while alienating and driving away the actual players over time. BHVR is wringing casuals out like damp towels for every last drop they can get. This isn't a free-to-play game, at least most of us are paying customers, and yet BHVR is trying to force casuals to play DbD likes it's their job. That's backwards. We gave them money and now they want excessive amounts of our time every day plus more money plus they don't actually fix the problems with their game. (I play on console, PS4 and Switch, so in terms of how I feel about how my monetary support of their game has benefited me, I'm enraged. Console optimization never and now Switch is cut off from cross-play for large amounts of time.)
tldr: BHVR sees casual players who play on the weekends as an opportunity. BHVR is using a needy grind to hook those casuals into daily chores that boost DbD's daily player number stats. It's causing frustration and burn out. It's miserable. Players deserve better, and BHVR doesn't deserve the support of their players with this sort of FOMO grind design. We've given them time and money, and they give us an ever more demanding grind with rewards that keep decreasing in quality.
My entire point is that this isn't true. You don't have the log in and do dailies to finish the Rift, because the other changes made to the system mean you're going to be making more progress in fewer games as long as you have weeklies to do, exempting event quests from the equation.
The issue isn't that there's a hefty grind that promotes FOMO, log-in-every-day kinds of attitudes. The problem is that the system currently creates lulls where it feels very grindy because milestones are the only real connective tissue between the release of weekly and/or event quests and they tick up quite slowly.
That doesn't actually encourage only logging in daily. You certainly can do that, and it's quite effective if you do, but you could also just wait until the next batch of quests and get significant progress over your play session that way.It's a problem of feel that pops up here. It feels bad to stop making noticeable progress because you finished your weekly quests and you know it'll be a genuine grind to make progress, which means you at least might feel inclined to stop playing and wait until the next batch- that happened to me multiple times over the course of this rift, at least.
Again, this system is less grindy than the old one. Instead of one set of quests (two during events) that you can only progress one at a time, you have multiple sets that can all be progressed and even completed at once. There's no way that shakes out other than you needing to spend less in-game time to achieve more progression while you have quests available.
The old system did also have this problem to a degree, but it didn't feel quite as pronounced because it took longer to run out of quests… because it took longer to gain that progress.
I did lay all of this out already, it's the main crux of my post.
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The Endurance lasting 40 seconds should be fine, that's realistically long enough that any killer actively chasing you off hook is going to trip it.
Not sure how I feel about the rest of the effects being shortened, though. Those never struck me as problematic.
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@Revivi said:
The biggest issue with the most recent rift is that somebody who can log in for 10-20 minutes each day makes SIGNIFICANTLY more rift progress than somebody who plays for 6 hours straight on a Saturday night. (Assuming all weekly quests are done in both cases). That feels disrespectful of the player's time. It IS more grindy if you only have 1/2 days a week to play, even if you devote the same hours. By a wide margin. You have to play 18-20 games to equal missing 1 day of dailies.
All that said, l absolutely agree with your fixes, as progression outside of dailies is the main offender. Fixing milestones is the easiest way of making long play sessions more rewarding, but in that case I think they would need to have nearly infinite tiers so you don't run out.
And BIG BIG agree on changing the name back to rituals. It just adds to the vibe, and in a horror game, vibes matter!!
It only seems grindy comparing two current scenarios, but if you think about either player in the old rift system, they're both benefiting from a much less grindy system.
If you play one six-hour session on Saturday or whatever ratio of hours over the weekend now, it's much less grindy than doing the same thing before, that's my point.
I do agree you get more progress playing daily. I don't necessarily mind that - online games need a regular flow of players logging in - but I do think the alternative could stand to be a lot better than it currently is.
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As someone above me said, they didn't scrap the changes, they were delayed to a second set of changes + testing on a future PTB. I do empathise with the frustration, though.
As an aside, I've never understood how seeing hook states encourages tunnelling. Someone that's inclined to tunnel already knows exactly how many hook states the person they're chasing has, because that person just came off the hook. If anything, seeing hook states encourages not tunnelling in a few small ways.
Undeniably it makes it easier to spread out hook states without accidentally two-hooking someone outside of tunnelling contexts. -
@HolyDarky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008342#Comment_4008342
Freddy and Clown https://x.com/KuhssirYT/status/1947299039940063301?t=Fr9GRZpIo7ta_fkBA4WUsA&s=19 (this hasn't changed yet)
These are all the perks that have a time based status effect (if I don't have forgotten any of them) and these are only from the killer side. It's actually 27 which is pretty close to my round about 30 and can we not already agree that it's insane that one perk counters so many perks for free and even for your teammates?
Dragon's Grip, Make Your Choice, Ravenous, Haunted Ground, Iron Maiden, Starstruck, FTTE, Hubris
Sloppy Butcher, Gift of Pain,
Fearmonger, Ultimate Weapon,
Blood Echo
Force Peanance
Genetic Limits, Languid Touch, Overwhelming Precense, Septic Touch,
Alien Instinct, Hysteria, Retribution, Nemesis, Weave Attunement
Nothing But Misery, Knock Out, Forced Hesitation
I'm not gonna list all addons because that is way too much but here are links to lists that show you all the addons that apply a status effect.
Mangeled addons
https://deadbydaylight.wiki.gg/wiki/Status_HUD/Mangled
Haemorrhage addons (thus most of them also apply Mangled so you have to keep that in mind when counting them)
https://deadbydaylight.wiki.gg/wiki/Status_HUD/Haemorrhage
Blindness addons
https://deadbydaylight.wiki.gg/wiki/Status_HUD/Blindness
Broken addons
https://deadbydaylight.wiki.gg/wiki/Status_HUD/Broken
Exhaustion addons
https://deadbydaylight.wiki.gg/wiki/Status_HUD/Exhausted
Oblivious addons
https://deadbydaylight.wiki.gg/wiki/Status_HUD/Oblivious
Hindered addons
https://deadbydaylight.wiki.gg/wiki/Status_HUD/Hindered
Exposed
Sure, but a perk can have a timed status effect attached to it and still be perfectly fine in the face of Vigil.
Take Fearmonger and Gift of Pain as the biggest examples here. Fearmonger's main strength is twofold; survivors are unable to read auras while repairing generators, and survivors have Exhaustion applied as they run away from a generator if you interrupt their repair.
Vigil doesn't affect either of those things, at all. A single second of Exhaustion is enough for that to be useful in Fearmonger's use cases, and the lingering Blindness doesn't really matter at all.Then take Gift of Pain. The main strength of Gift of Pain is that healing up applies a whopping 14% slowdown to generator repair until injured again, forcing survivors to either stay injured for gen speed or heal up and be less effective at progressing their objective for it.
The Mangled timer being slightly lower doesn't actually matter at all. This perk could not have Mangled and it'd still be a top tier powerful perk.A perk being affected by Vigil isn't even close to the same as a perk being made useless by Vigil. That's kind of why I'm making this post- I think it's a pretty fair effect leveraged against most perks, but I'm really on the fence if it's fair against Exposed, because the perks which give timed Exposed tend to be more harshly hit by Vigil than pretty much any other killer perk.
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@HolyDarky said:
Vigil needs a bigger nerf than just removing the exposed status effect. Currently, the perk makes ~30 perks, ~30 addons, and two killers useless by just it's existence - you just have to equip it and that's it. In addition, it also gives teammates a fifth perk slot due to its 16 meter radius and 15 seconds lingering, which means these perks, addons, and killers are not specific against a Vigil user weak but once a survivor has it in the party. Thus limits the already small build variety on the killer side even more and results in seeing the same build over and over again. Lastly, the perk makes already strong and easy to use exhaustion perks in Lithe and Sprint Burst even more easier to use. The perk is just overall unhealthy and that's for free.
…Which killers? It doesn't affect killer powers, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.
I'm also curious about the rest of that list too, really, the perks and addons. I think that might be a little overstated.
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Not that I'm defending the OTR nerf - it was a bad idea and I'm glad the perk's getting changed again soon - but I do think it's worth pointing out there are more options in the meantime.
Decisive Strike is the one I assume you're referring to, but you also have Blood Rush available for personal anti-tunnel when paired with Sprint Burst or Lithe, both of which are solid perks when you aren't being tunnelled too.
On the personal end there are also a few perks that aren't strictly anti-tunnel, like Dead Hard, that you can use in that context.
It's also worth bringing a few altruistic anti-tunnel perks because they're fairly solid on the whole. Borrowed Time throws off killers just counting to ten, Babysitter gives a pretty crazy amount of Haste to make distance with, even Shoulder the Burden has high potential. Until we get more appropriate basekit anti-tunnel, perks like these are going to be very useful on the whole.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006804#Comment_4006804
You literally said "On their stronger realms right now, the fog effect isn't even that bad - I had someone use one against me yesterday and it honestly wasn't awful"
Really? The fog in those screenshots "isn't even that bad"???
For the survivors.
It was used against me and I noticed that it was actually having an effect- tracking that survivor did actually get harder because the fog effect is genuinely pretty noticeable.
So, yes, the fog in the game I played wasn't that bad for the survivors because I actually noticed its effect.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006682#Comment_4006682
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/EF1AFA74CTTJ/fog-1.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/5KDM6855QSV3/fog-2.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ZLR2OTRLYRZF/fog-3.png
Actual pictures of what the fog vials sometimes look like, with zero filters.
Yeah, it varies.
I'm not sure I'm seeing your point?
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My biggest hope is that sometime soon, we see something to equalise their effectiveness across realms. On their stronger realms right now, the fog effect isn't even that bad - I had someone use one against me yesterday and it honestly wasn't awful, I think it was on a MacMillan realm or one at around that colour scheme.
On the other hand, there are realms where they practically don't have an effect at all, iirc they're awful on Coldwind and Forsaken Boneyard.I do have other issues with the item - I heavily dislike and disagree with giving them a charge system, for one - but that's the big thing I hope to see soon.
As an aside, it is worth pointing out Fog Vials are still a pocket Distortion, which isn't nothing. Not enough obviously, but I do like that they have some variety in how they can be used. We just need that variety to actually be present by making the "fog" part consistently useful.
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@ManOMaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006572#Comment_4006572
Close but not it! Remember that these are the only 4 perks in the entire game so far to have this trait in their lore text!
They're all attributed to "Notebook"?
That's certainly a commonality in their lore text, but I'm not sure if it's exclusive to them.
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The immediate concern here is hook trades. Say you're on the hook for a while, someone's injured coming up to the hook, and they go down as soon as the unhook animation ends.
The killer picks them up, hooks them, and immediately targets you. They're still tunnelling you - chasing you soon after you're unhooked to capitalise on your vulnerability - but suddenly you don't have your DS up because the person coming for the save traded to get you off the hook.
It's not the worst fail state in the world, those situations are fairly niche + hopefully we'll see the return of the actual basekit anti-tunnel fairly soon, but it's worth mentioning in discussions.
Also this isn't a rework, it's just a nerf.
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Is Blood Rush still killswitched?
That really isn't a bad choice for personal anti-tunnel. Getting to use Sprint Burst or Lithe twice can make you a really unappealing target.
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Agreeing with the above. OTR is a real problem here and needs to be reverted, but killers seeing hook states does not make it any easier to tunnel, it only makes it easier not to.
Krasue I am more hesitant to make snap judgements on when she's been out for a day, but she does seem too good. The kill switch obviously isn't appropriate here though, unless there's an actual game-breaking bug I'm not aware of.
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I don't think it's that bad. I would say most new perks fall into the "usable but unexciting" or "usable but flawed" camp.
We've definitely had more perks with requirements or some other kind of activation, but I think that's fair. There's only so much perks can do, and most of the passive "just do X" perks already exist.
We have, admittedly, also had some real duds lately too. Apocalyptic Ingenuity is probably the best example there, since that one has so many requirements it's actively weak, but Road Life deserves a shoutout for being a potentially strong and fun perk that just requires too much to access.
It's worth pointing out the good perk releases too. Orela was pretty solid for perks all around, Taurie had two genuinely good/interesting perks and one stinker, Springtrap had Phantom Fear and the at least usable Help Wanted, Kaneki… bottom text, Houndmaster had Jagged Compass and No Quarter…
We get good perks too, it must be said. Especially perks designed to synergise with others for specific builds. -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004897#Comment_4004897
It is either intentional, or the biggest mess-up since the Chandler stream.
Because they did take care to remove the nerfs to gen regression that were offsetting the unique hook bonuses. So it's not like they're not aware that they had to revert some perk changes to account for the fact that the tunnel/slug reworks were held back. They just chose not to do it for survivors.
This isn't that, though, that's my point.
The current state of Tenacity isn't what it was on the PTB. You could still crawl and recover while running Tenacity on the PTB.
What you're describing there did happen to Off The Record, but Tenacity seems to have inherited a completely new nerf that wasn't there before. That's why I'm saying that it seems like an oversight - it might not be, obviously, but it does smell like the new auto-recover system isn't playing nice with Tenacity or something.
Either way, it should be adjusted. Tenacity without crawling recovery is just too weak, even with the aura block added on top. -
Wait, did they remove the ability to crawl and recover? I've not been in-game to check this all out yet.
Based on the way the patch notes were written, I assumed the two changes listed were in addition to that effect remaining. It almost seems like an oversight or bug to take away the crawl-and-recover feature- maybe it isn't playing well with their new automatic recovery system?
After all, they didn't take that away on the PTB, it was just made basekit. This isn't even a lingering nerf that doesn't need to be there in the new context of the patch, it's a new nerf that wasn't there before.If it was intentional, it should be reverted, that is just a nerf instead of a sidegrade.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004861#Comment_4004861
no i mean recently unhooked, ran away from the hook to heal, killer follows scratch marks and find 2 injured survivors healing. as killer i now know which one to chase and which one to ignore. might not be hard tunneling instantly off the hook, maybe 3 seconds off the hook? pretty much tunneling a player out fast while ignoring all other players which i thought was the issue people were complaining about. its all good to me, i hard tunnel at 5 gens every time so this makes it easier for me but even i can see this is a pro tunneling update that makes tunneling easier
Oh, I see.
Nah, I still disagree. The only detail that actually matters in that scenario is them having the same skin- if they're different in any way you already knew who to prioritise anyway. I'll grant it technically does make tunnelling slightly easier (though not much, you still have to pick one and wait for the chase indicator to fade on the other), but only in a very hyper specific niche scenario.
I just don't see it making an appreciable difference overall.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004851#Comment_4004851
not always, if i leave the hook area then see 2 survivors both injured both same skin but 1 is on death hook and the other hasnt been hooked at all. then it can help determine which one to target. might not be hard tunneling straight off the hook but it can help to tunnel out 1 player fast
As in, the injured survivor is on death hook but wasn't recently unhooked?
That's just flat out not tunnelling, it's light target prioritisation. Nothing wrong with that.
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I don't think the visible hook states actually matters here, if you're tunnelling someone you already know who you're targeting, it's the person that just got off the hook.
The nerf to OTR is the more relevant thing here, and it definitely isn't a good idea. Hoping for a hotfix reversion of some kind on that front.
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I have to agree with the sentiment that nerfing OTR in this patch doesn't make sense if it's not in conjunction with anti-tunnel basekit changes. It's definitely a problematic perk, but it's a necessary evil as long as tunnelling remains in the game the way it currently is.
I'm also a little surprised Tenacity's sidegrade and Deerstalker's rework are going through without basekit anti-slugging, but I don't think those two are necessarily problems.
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I could see the intent behind a pitch like this, but I'd have a few reservations.
The first and biggest is that "low pick rate" isn't the same as "low strength". Plenty of genuinely quite good perks don't get picked often, and that's because pickrate is a number influenced by a hundred different factors- strength is only one of those factors, and it isn't particularly more impactful than the others.
If BHVR were to do something like this, they'd have to pick the perks from a list that they'd feel could actually be buffed safely instead of using pickrate as the metric.The second leads on from that, which is that if BHVR have this list already, they might as well work on all of them. All the vote would do is give them a priority list, which is something but I feel maybe not worth the effort.
If I were to pitch a version of this idea that I'd say has more practical use, it'd probably be something like BHVR having a list of let's say twenty perks, ten for each side, that they want to address in some way. They'd then ask the community to vote on if the perk needs a tweak (number change), an update (shuffling around how the perk works without making it do something entirely different), or a rework (just flat out changing the effect entirely).
I'd also say BHVR shouldn't try this for every perk that needs changes- it'd be more of a community event like the Grimoire on a smaller scale, not a step in the usual balancing pipeline. Just every once in a while, polling for community feedback. -
Personally, my pipe dream for Donna is for her to be a Twins skin - if BHVR can manage to change Victor into Angie it'd be absolutely perfect.
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Their data would include the more measured feedback people gave, all of which largely indicated at least some problems, so it's fairly obviously a mix of both.
My pet theory though, that I have no real evidence for but does feel plausible, is that it happened so quickly because BHVR already knew about some of the issues ahead of time and either didn't have time to fix them before the PTB went live, or wanted to throw the PTB out to confirm that the things they suspected would be problems actually were.
Then, there turned out to be more problems they weren't aware of, and they thought "yeah this just needs another round of testing".Is that true? Who knows. All we know for sure is that the PTB was flawed in some ways, and giving changes this far-reaching and radical a second round of testing is a good idea anyways.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003087#Comment_4003087
Oh these would be great! I liked Revelations 2 a lot.
Same! I liked both those games, but the first one is definitely a lot rougher.
We did get Jill's wetsuit from Rev 1 iirc, so it's not completely outside the realm of possibility I feel. Maybe not the next wave of cosmetics, but if we get enough then maybe…
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Personally, what I'm hoping for most is an Alex Wesker skin for Mastermind (death is her escape… but not yours) and a Moira Burton skin for Rebecca (she uses flashlights in her game, it's the perfect fit!).
This is, I feel, more likely than Capcom ever acknowledging that game…
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The first two are good ideas. I'd go a little further with both - about fifteen seconds no collision for anti tunnel and probably just some number tweaks to the AFC so killers like Huntress can't avoid the system while still getting the value of facecamping - but they're great starting points and pretty reasonable suggestions in their own right.
The anti-slug idea, though, I feel doesn't address the bigger issues. Slugging isn't just for the 4k- there are a lot of scenarios that absolutely warrant looking at by the developers that aren't slugging for the 4k. For example, the killer aggressively trying to bleed everyone out, or downing everyone one by one before attempting to hook, or aggressively downing just the one person over and over again without actually hooking them.
The ability for survivors to actually counter those scenarios is often dependent on them bringing specific perks, otherwise they're in a position where they repeatedly have to guess for game because making the wrong decision practically hands the killer a victory on a silver platter.That's not to say what was on the PTB solved everything, nor that it didn't have problems, but that's the reason why the devs were pushing for something more than just an extra abandon option. I think it's entirely appropriate to weaken slugging by putting a cap on its value, while still allowing for it to be used for pressure or as a response to survivor actions.
I'd also probably want to see unhookable builds looked at, ideally at the same time, but that's getting a little off topic.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/456814/suggest-changes-for-roadlife
No point in keeping the original activation requirement, its too unpredictable, too hard to get and just not a good basekit buff
A reactive healing for generators sounds pretty balanced actually
This third one just sounds like a worse We'll make it. Spamming gen pops would make the perk useless or get alot less value
The PTB version of Road Life applied that speed to healing yourself as well, so assuming OP doesn't mean to change it to altruistic only, the third one would have that over We'll Make It.
Though, I do also favour the second one, I like that idea. It's restrictive enough to not be unbalanced, but also in such a way that it encourages running other tools alongside it, I like that.
If Road Life were to get a full rework - which I think could be beneficial but isn't necessary - that's what I'd lean towards.
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Myers stuff sounds good- I'm hoping this means making Evil Incarnate feel less clunky rather than outright actually buffing its strength, that's more what needs to happen there.
I also hope they make Fragrant Tuft a brown addon, it's just a sidegrade like Plague's Prayer Tablet addon. Kinda curious what his second iridescent is going to be either way, though…
It's interesting (and imo probably for the best) that they are keeping Slaughtering Strike outright, though. I'm hoping the other buffs he's getting mean that players can continue to play Myers as "empowered M1" and avoid using that ability if they don't like it- that's always been his thing.
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I'm so glad the Diner Girl cosmetic and the Jester Wraith cosmetic won, those are both very much up my alley and outfits I will definitely be using!
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@Gibberish said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001467#Comment_4001467
What I'm saying is that the criticisms experienced players are already informed by player's experience with the game; and that some people act like that doesnt matter at all and that any potential changes exist in a opaque bubble that you cannot possibly predict.
Not only that, you're serious underselling how much of a mess this PTB was. Like half those ideas are so bad on paper that they shouldn't have even went to testing; the fact that anyone thought they were a good idea at any point is baffling. Just like how in my original post, stuff like "Sable Ward walks through walls" or "115 Nurse" is so absurd that it's not even worth testing, so was some of the things tested in the PTB, and I'm being a bit hyperbolic, yes, but my core point remains.Well, I have two things to say to that.
The first is that you don't know how experienced someone is when they're just airing an immediate complaint on the forums, especially when that complaint is very heated, very presumptuous, and extremely premature. They could have thousands of hours and a really solid grasp on the game… or they could've installed it two months ago.
Experience doesn't make you psychic, it just gives you a better groundwork to start from. Most experienced players I saw were cautious but waited to see the details before commenting.The second is that you're overselling how much of a mess this PTB was. There were definitely some big issues and I'm glad they're delaying it to iterate, but a huge chunk of what's here is completely workable.
Take the anti-slugging. Almost perfect, just needs a small basekit tweak (recover slower while crawling) and some more perk changes to accommodate, it was well designed. The anti-tunnel was broader and had more points of failure, but a lot of it also still just worked and only needed small changes. That is where the bigger issues crop up too, a couple killer-specific issues that need to be ironed out and too much potential for frustrating gameplay, but the broad shape totally worked.Even when you're experienced, immediately giving a very loud response to the first bits of information without getting the whole picture is premature, and people who point out you need to see the changes in action aren't missing something, they're just right. That's my point.
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@Gibberish said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001453#Comment_4001453
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001451#Comment_4001451
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001444#Comment_4001444
Yes these changes are absurd, that's not the point I'm trying to make.
My point is that even after the details of the PTB were shown, people were still saying that stuff.
Like, no. If you have even just like couple thousand hours into DBD you generally can accuratley predict how a particular change is going to affect gameplay. This doesnt even have to be about this PTB specifically. People have done the same with proposed changes in other PTBs that turned out bad and then were (usually) revered.
The whole point of this post is that it's stupid when act like it's impossible to predict how a change will affect the game just from the patchnotes. While this might be true in some cases where the changes are small and subtle, major changes like these are very easy to predict, and many people did very accurately predict how they would turn out, despite people saying that it was impossible to predict before testing it.My point stands, that back and forth typically happens before the patch notes, not after.
As for everything else, I mean, these changes in particular were pretty far-reaching and the problems they ended up having were much subtler than many immediate critics predicted. There is a lot of value in giving an initial response but waiting to test things before you're too conclusive.
A lot of this particular PTB's content sounded scary on paper but turned out to be fine in practice with only a handful of smaller issues to resolve, and that's often true of a lot of PTBs. You get the occasional one where it really is just obviously a bad idea on paper, but most of the time people who have a knee-jerk reaction are only right accidentally and without a full understanding of why they're right, or they're just wrong completely.
It's always better to give a more informed set of criticisms than immediately dismiss everything out of hand, basically.
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To be fair, most of that discourse comes from people reacting to the Dev Update, not the patch notes.
Critical information that heavily affects the proposed changes often isn't present in the Dev Update. For example, when the one for this PTB dropped, people were freaking out about the repair speed bonus for killing someone before six hooks, but others would point out that we can't really decide if that's game breaking or not until we actually see what percentage repair speed buff it is.
After we did see it, the number ended up low enough that the killer's still comfortably ahead after killing someone and it'd still be worth the trade a lot of the time. It was very important context, and claiming the change was terrible or would be a disaster before having that context was just premature.Plus, y'know, obviously most changes are way less clear-cut than those examples you provided. A lot of the changes that actually make it to a PTB do need to be tested before we can be conclusive.
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@Crowman said:
It's funny people calling it an extended lunge when the new M2 ability has a charge with slowdown, moves longer distance than other killers considered dash killers (Chucky, Wesker, Dracula), has limited turning, and does not work with perks that trigger on M1.
If Myers was truly just an extended lunge than none of the above would be true like how it is on live.
The argument isn't that the new power is an extended lunge, it's that Myers has always had an extended lunge that offers similar-but-weaker value to this new ability.
The new ability is a dash, it's just not really a huge deviation away from how Tier 3 has always worked. He's always had this kind of ability, they just codified it as a more of a dash ability mechanically here.
Like, sure, it has a charge-and-slowdown like a dash ability… but he's still whipping around loops the way he always has in Tier 3, just better. All that's new mechanically is the pallet-break element.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001209#Comment_4001209
i guess it can be seen as a better zoning lunge? Since it can break pallets etc?
That's true, I actually forgot about the pallet-break part. That does add something to him, though it is a little generic. I wouldn't mind if that part of the rework were scrapped but the rest were preserved.
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I think it's unfair to consider new Myers dashslop when it's just an extension of the extended-lunge ability he's always had.
That being said, I don't really see what Slaughtering Strike adds other than changing his lunge from a basic attack to a special attack for perks. The rest of the rework is really quite good and just needs a few number tweaks to feel less sluggish, so I'd hope that if the devs do react to the negative reactions to Slaughtering Strike they don't ditch the rest of the rework.
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@mooasis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000393#Comment_4000393
there are a lot of things in combination that can make gen speeds wildly vary, which yes does include toolboxes, but perks such as hyperfocus + stakeout, deja and resi, prove etc. i agree toolboxes are problematic and should be addressed but you cant only address toolboxes as the meta would shift to medkit and whatever the next best gen tools are which atm is hyperfocus and stakeout (bardic also has very strong synergy with those perks)
in general though for toolboxes, i think making them unable to get skill checks to remove great bonuses and certain perk synergy is a good place to start, removes the ceiling but also makes them easier to use for noobs. other than that just generally nerfing charges is probably the next step
Hyperfocus and Stakeout are only problematic with toolboxes, not so much on their own, and all other gen speed increases are honestly pretty small so even in combination they're well within reasonable parameters.
I do agree that toolboxes being adequately addressed probably would mean them being dropped, but to be fair BHVR have been at least attempting to make item variety better. Keys were substantially improved, maps were at least ostensibly improved, and there was a whole new item that we could strengthen to make it more appealing compared to medkits.
It also doesn't really stop toolboxes from just being the problem with gen speeds, so it's worth doing even if people just shift to medkits.What I'd do with toolboxes is rework the repair speed to something else entirely. Maybe a shield against regression, that idea's been tossed around before— that combined with the extra skillcheck chance (+ a nerf to Hyperfocus so it doesn't work when repairing with toolboxes) would make toolboxes more than worth using without radically altering repair speeds.
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@mooasis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000363#Comment_4000363
having a minimum amount of time a gen must be completed in only has an effect towards survivors who bring tools to make them faster. theres no way for a gen to be completed in less than 70 seconds solo without items or perks
It's just overcomplicating the problem. There's one specific item that causes this issue, so just address that item.
Even stacking a full build surrounding gen speed increases gives you less than half the value of a toolbox, there really isn't an issue outside of specifically toolboxes.