jesterkind
jesterkind
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One sentence would be really difficult, but I think I can do it in two and stay in the spirit of the challenge.
"Survivors who have just been unhooked gain a mark that persists until they perform a conspicuous action, 60 seconds have elapsed, or someone else is unhooked. Survivors who are hooked with this mark still on them do not gain a hook state, and their hook timer doesn't start until the mark elapses."
With this system actively targeting the same survivor for the easy post-unhook chase is still doable, but you can't force someone out of the match. It wouldn't be an easy path to victory anymore, so pretty much everyone would stop doing it… unless the survivor is being super aggressive and hooking them would get them out of the way for a bit, which preserve killer agency against aggressive survivors.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4026671#Comment_4026671
Honestly, I do run it sometimes, and the main thing I'd want is a small range increase. Something like +4-8m would be very nice.
I could see that being appropriate. I'm not against it getting buffs, I just don't think it's a perk languishing in the gutter the way others do, lol
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I'm in the minority here, I'm not actually sure it was just Starstruck Nurse who could benefit too much from Awakened Awareness having a linger.
Spirit was good with it on that PTB, as I recall, and I think even I managed to get some nasty results with Clown of all killers using the same combo.Besides, it's not as though AA is a bad perk or anything. Every time I end up running it through something like Chaos Shuffle, I remember that it's honestly a pretty damn good perk and I should run it more.
Then I don't, but that's on me, not on the perk.Never understood why everyone leaps to extremes for perk changes. Awakened Awareness, PTB Furtive Chase, current Tinkerer, none of these are nearly as bad as some people make them out to be.
I wouldn't even really buff AA or Tinkerer, though PTB Furtive Chase could use some adjustments. -
Tunnelling doesn't stop being a balance problem at any stage of the game, though.
The only time it's more understandable is when all the gens are done, because at that point the killer doesn't really have much else to do and the survivors have a much clearer shot to victory- survive this one chase, make this much distance, and you're out the gates.
If you choose to chase someone as soon as they're unhooked at one gen remaining, you are still benefiting from a much easier chase for zero requirement, preparation, or tradeoff. The survivor still has to just outplay you with the deck stacked against them unless they dedicate part of their loadout to very specific perks. It's still a balance problem.
I do agree that it's better to go for non-disruptive changes as much as possible - the Elusive change from this PTB is incredible for that, it's practically impossible to abuse and only benefits you for trying to escape the hook. It isn't enough on its own, obviously, but it's the right kind of change.
Eventually I hope BHVR phase out anti-tunnel Endurance in favour of survivors fully losing collision, though there'd need to be some safeguards on that for sure. I've also seen it suggested that survivors hooked again before certain conditions are met do not gain a hook stage, and that's workable- it isn't disruptive, it preserves agency, but it limits the effectiveness of those easy chases.The bottom line though, is that tunnelling is, at its core, just a balance problem. Not a contextual problem or even a legitimate mechanic with bad edge cases like slugging is.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4025790#Comment_4025790
The two are interconnected, which is the issue. Killer strategies that focus on
reducing survivor potential efficiencyand survivor efficiencybeing able to reduce killer's ability to manage timeare two sides of the same coin, which is why they need to be addressed simultaneously. Instead seemingly unrelated changes like the anti-slug system and longer hook states actually help survivor efficiency instead of hindering it, which then leads to killers feeling more need to address the power dynamic shift much faster to minimize that damage. The same obviously goes in the opposite direction, as things like hard tunneling mean that survivors need to maximize their efficiency to have a chance when someone gets taken out early. This is why addressing these issues like a jenga tower doesn't really work, it just becomes constant compensation adjustments both mechanically and in player mindsets. They have to be addressed simultaneously, otherwise addressing either one directly hinders the counterplay of the other.They're semi related, but they're not intertwined the way some think.
What it basically boils down to is this: Tunnelling is a mismatch against pretty much all the potential efficiency you can actually expect to see from the games you're playing.
For the general spread of popular meta perks, for the usual sort of SWF, and definitely for solo queue teams, the killer has a much wider variety of tools and tricks to combat efficiency than just tunnelling- removing that isn't really escalating an arms race, it's just sorting out a balance problem. You won't be left without a way of managing survivor efficiency, you'll just be left with the healthier spread of options for that.Even with toolboxes in the match, if it's one or two and it's not a full stacked build for either player, the match is harder but you don't need to tunnel someone out, you've got other options too. The only time you could even remotely consider tunnelling necessary is if you're playing against the absolute top tier possible of survivor players, and they're all bringing their strongest heat, and you're not playing one of the top half-ish of the killer roster.
It's much, much, much narrower than the scenarios where tunnelling is a problem, is the point.There is a connection between toolboxes being unbalanced and tunnelling being unbalanced, but those two things have connections to dozens of other parts of the game too. You can't fix everything at once, you have to pace the changes somehow.
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To be fair, I think they can just simply nerf this and fix it.
If BoP only gave, say, 25 seconds of Undetectable, it'd be much harder to chain uses but would still be a very useful off-hook stealth pick. A number change could fix the oversight in this instance.
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4025611#Comment_4025611
'Unbalanced' in an environment where the game can be over in 4 minutes or less?
Yeah?
Yes, toolboxes are unbalanced too, that doesn't change that tunnelling is also unbalanced.
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020029#Comment_4020029
When killers experience matches with quick completion times, they respond to those experiences in future matches by "tunneling and slugging."
Killers tunnel and slug because they're trying to combat fast completion times, that's always been the true reason.
Humans tend to respond in certain ways after they've been conditioned to expect something.
I agree with that.
However, what people often miss when making this argument is that these players respond with tunnelling because tunnelling is unbalanced- it's the most value you can get for the least effort, and effective counterplay tends to be locked behind specific perks and a fairly high skill floor.
There are other responses too, they're just not as effective as tunnelling, because tunnelling is unbalanced.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4023396#Comment_4023396
It is absolutelly something to sneeze at lmao. You still can get your aura revelaed, you still have a red stain and worse of all people do have eyes, combine it with monitor and you are dedicating half your build to something timmy and friends can counter by saying "he is going shack" in discord.
Like if it were a 15% reduction maybe it could be a mid perk, right now is as useful as septic touch.
That's definitely an exaggeration.
Yes, you can still be seen, but only if there's a clear line of sight to you, which isn't a guarantee on pretty much any map in the game. It's obviously a perk that you'd use for stealth playstyles, so you're already going to be trying to keep objects between you and whoever you're approaching.
The shorter window survivors have to react to you coming, the less distance they'll gain before the chase. It not being literally 100% guaranteed in all scenarios doesn't make it weak.
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To be fair, while there aren't many Exhaustion perks numerically, they're strong, popular, and every player is guaranteed to have access to them. The idea of designing something around Exhaustion perks isn't completely dead in the water- Vigil is largely used for its Exhaustion effect, for example, and Blood Rush is designed around them too.
Personally, my hangup is that I'm not sure this is a strong enough effect to warrant consuming the medkit. Consuming the addon, definitely, that should be one-use, but the whole medkit seems excessive.
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I mean, I don't like the idea of Furtive changing either, I use that perk quite a bit, but I think it's a stretch to say it's killing the perk. A permanent 50% reduction to the terror radius is nothing to sneeze at, combine that with Monitor and you've got a combo many killers can make very threatening.
Because both of the effects are worthwhile + strong, I almost wonder if we'll see a Dark Sense + Eyes of Belmont situation in the future, where whichever version they stick with now, we get the other as its own perk down the line.
…Hopefully it's this new version that becomes its own perk, though. I like Furtive Chase.
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As others have pointed out, the assumption that the first chase will take noticeably longer than 90 seconds (accounting for travel time while splitting up) and the second chase takes at least 90 seconds is kind of insane. I'm not saying that can't happen, but it also indicates very clearly that the killer is almost certainly mismatched in this trial.
I've seen some people suggest that the first chase doesn't need to last that long with toolboxes and certain perks in play, but that undermines the central point of the original post, as I understand it- because that wouldn't be DBD's balance being mathematically broken, that would be toolboxes being overtuned.
(Which, to be fair, I agree with, they are.)While I think there's some conversation to be had about the situations where this can happen, those conversations have to be centred around the understanding that if chases are lasting that long, then someone or something has failed. Either the player is mismatched/not nearly as good as the survivors, the survivors themselves are bringing some kind of loadout option that needs heavy scrutiny, or the map is woefully unbalanced.
It's very much not a fundamental reality of DBD that this kind of thing must always happen. Chases aren't meant to last that long on average, not even for the weakest killers in the game right now. -
While you're not wrong that Distortion no longer allows you to evade chases forever, that doesn't mean it's a dead perk. Distortion is a very respectable perk at the moment- it boasts good stealth (by means of allowing you to avoid bad chases, play more safely, and even sometimes break chase safely), and good information (by means of telling you what triggers the killer's aura perks have).
The fact is, the game has shifted a little over the years to a state where you will be expected to engage in chases at some point. Stealth isn't meant to avoid that outright, just delay it- either so the killer chases someone else at that moment, or so that you can get distance on the killer before the chase starts for a more favourable chase, or by letting you escape a chase without the killer following you.
Stealth isn't dead, not as a concept, but stealth will involve getting chased sometimes now. I play pretty stealthy as survivor, and I even use Distortion for it fairly frequently, but the fact remains- the killer's gonna chase me at some point, and unless I specifically brought other perks to compensate for it, I'm probably only gonna be pretty average in terms of chase length. That's not inherently a problem if I can avoid some chases to get some objective progression done while my teammates take the heat.
All that being said, I don't think it would be unreasonable for Distortion to start with both tokens. That'd be a nice little buff to an already very respectable perk, it'd cement Distortion as a very solid pick.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4023035#Comment_4023035
I don't think you really understand how much effective bodyblocking can rob pressure from a Killer, or how time consuming it is to actually take someone to a hook when considering efficient play.
Simply immobilising a Survivor by taking an extra 10-20 seconds to do so is negative pressure. It's a lose/lose, you either slug, and lose pressure since there's no real threat to it, or take a bunch of time to hook, and don't fundamentally get anything from it objective wise. That's not even mentioning the litany of incredible reset options that activate from an unhook (Resurgence, WMI, etc).
Taking a down for another Survivor can oftentimes be the optimal play, even without your suggestion in mind. Buying time by having a Survivor with less hookstates taking a down for someone who's dead on hook is incredibly effective.
Two Survivors can crank gens for free while the intended target essentially has two extra hits in a chase, and if you slug, you can leave them on the ground until they're nearly fully recovered and then run over to pick them up in a second.
That's not even mentioning perks like Unbreakable, where even doing this strategy once would cause such a massive shift in pressure that it could be game-ending for the Killer, as now you have two gens being worked on, without any sort of need to divert attention to the slug at all.
This idea just seems like there is a misunderstanding regarding macro play in DBD from your end, no offense. Completely risk-free bodyblocks are not something we should be adding.
I do understand how effective bodyblocking can help out a team, which is why I made sure to keep this conversation focused on survivors running around behind the killer to try and force it after an unhook. In my experience, while that can translate to effective bodyblocking, it usually doesn't.
The much stronger form of bodyblocking is coordinated survivors running to a teammate while they're in chase so that teammate can take one hit then run away and reset or get back on generators. We're not talking about that here, though.I also made sure to clarify that we were not talking about situations where you take an extra 10-20 seconds to hook a survivor for only basekit pressure. As I said, that wouldn't be worth it. We are talking very specifically about situations where the hook is much closer than that, so you're taking about 5 seconds (the two-ish for picking up and the two-ish for putting them on the hook) for basekit pressure, or taking that extra time for some perk that makes it worth doing.
The specifics matter, here. Yes, bodyblocking can be very effective, but it also can be game-losing. We need to ascertain what kind of bodyblocking survivors are capable of forcing and what options the killer would have in responding to them, not just take the potential highest value from bodyblocking as a concept.
Which, again, remember, it's not risk free because there are options. Killers aren't going to be boxed in to only one response that will backfire on them, there will be multiple ways to handle the situation based on what you think will yield either the most value or the safest value.
It's not risk free. The killer could be able to ignore the survivor, meaning they're just wasting their time. The killer could leave them on the ground when they're expecting to be hooked, meaning they wasted their time. The killer could hook them when they're expecting to be left on the ground, meaning they wasted their time.I will acknowledge that I personally find bodyblocking annoying and would like to see it weakened, but that's separate to the balance of it, which is what I'm contesting here.
Ideally, for me, we see this to fix the bigger problem by far in tunnelling, then down the line we make some adjustments to make bodyblocking less annoying. One is an actual balance problem and a gigantic one to boot, the other is an annoying strategy that has and would continue to have answers. -
@ReverseVelocity said:
Terrible idea, that is essentially a free ticket for bodyblocking excessively after an unhook.
If this mechanic was in action, I'd bodyblock for the unhooker every time. They'd get two free hits and the killer wouldn't be able to hook me at all, since it'd be pointless. You'd be able to throw yourself at the killer with reckless abandon.
There is basically zero pressure in hooking someone without progressing your objective, especially compared to what bodyblocking potential it'd open up.
For extra points, you could run No Mither/DH. Tank two hits straight off of unhook and immediately put the killer in a lose/lose situation. The killer hooks you? No hook progress, but you gain an extra health state through DH again. The killer slugs you? Just get back up and keep going.
That, or just have another survivor with WGLF to delete any sort of slugging pressure that would be mandatory to progress the game, I guess.
This is just ONE of the scenarios in which it could be abused.
So, if you throw yourself at the killer for a bodyblock, let's look at that scenario- now for the sake of this argument I'm going to assume the killer does not peel off to chase you, and you have to keep running into doorways and such to bodyblock, since I tend to make these posts and comments on the good faith assumption that the killer in question is trying not to tunnel.
First, we need to acknowledge the obvious: Two survivors are being chased, leaving only two on generators. We must therefore be comparing this situation to one where the person who got saved doesn't bodyblock and instead goes to repair gens. We don't need to break down specific numbers, just keep that in mind.
Now, let's assume after downing the survivor, the killer does choose to hook them. We'll assume the survivor went down directly under a hook, or the killer has a perk they want to get value from, or something along those lines- otherwise the obvious call would be to just leave them on the floor, which will remain an option depending on circumstances, that mustn't be forgotten.
The question to ask is, what pressure does the killer get from this situation? First we'll acknowledge the possibility of perks, then move on to basekit.
The bodyblocking survivor is now immobilised with no way of rescuing themselves, unlike being slugged where certain perks could help them. That survivor is pressured.
Someone has to come rescue them, meaning they're probably leaving generators to do it. That survivor is pressured.
The killer, presumably, has gone to chase someone else. That survivor is pressured too.Even without progressing your objective, hooks are pressure and slowdown, that's how this works. You still benefit from everything other than directly progressing your objective when you hook someone this way.
Now, as I said in the post above, obviously it's better to hook someone who actually gains a hook state from it, but that's good, that's what we want. That's incentive to try and avoid hooking someone who has this mark on them, and only do it if there's some clear direct reason to.
On the survivor end, you have to remember that anything you gain here will be weighed against the opportunity cost of the generator repair you could be doing, and the lack of objective pressure that results after you've been put on the hook. It's not impossible to benefit from this situation as survivor, but it's not guaranteed either.That's kind of the bottom line I want to stress here, both sides have options and both sides can misplay by misreading what the best call would be. It's not survivors abusing a mechanic and killers being helpless, it's both sides utilising what's available to try and get the best value- both sides have agency, both sides are engaging with the game, both sides have choices to make. Clearly miles better than one side having practically no agency and the other side just getting free value, which is the situation now.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4023006#Comment_4023006
Why would it matter how good they are at looping? You aren't looping them, they're bodyblocking you. They're
giving youthe hits, you don't have to waste any time getting them.
So, we simply aren't welcomed with concept of proper bodyblocking once, and still thinking something like allowing to tank hits by default is acceptable. No point to discuss it then
If your argument solely based “for survivors it’s different, so you can’t apply this concept for them”, the only thing I see is actual understanding of unfairness of proposals, but a simple refusal to say it out loud. I won’t stop believing if you are touching playstyle and pausing objectives, you have do it for both sides. Otherwise it’s just a tag game
Could you elaborate? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that first part.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022992#Comment_4022992
How it cancel the fact that person abused the system in a way it wasn't considered we’ll keep ignoring, okay…
“Let them abuse, you just have to give more hits and waste more time, even if you didn't tunnel”
It will work different as soon as in lobby will be survivor who can loop longer than 10 seconds. It barely gives any difference between old ptb. It's just It's disingenuous to insist that such a system isn't exploitable. If you literally tell a survivor, "You won't be punished for standing in the killer's face; you'll picked up sooner or later thanks to antislug or another teammate, and if he dares to hook you, progress will be paused for HIM," people will exploit it. Saying otherwise is living in a rainbow world or viewing everything from the extremely one-sided perspective
If tunneling issue is so frustrating, what the most unfair thing that isn't related to personal skill issues and whims? It's the lack of interactivity. The person being tunneled or instanced dies, or spends half the gameplay hooked. As a killer, you're simply patrolling zones without much progress, just trying to quickly hit another second chance. So, kinda soulless effectiveness. Why not then make stage progress dynamic for both terms and relate it to anti camp meter? Instead of self-unhooking, provide a slowdown in the stage if the killer is too close, and conversely, a speedup if the killer moves away from the map point.
Well, sort of... 1) Survivors have more motivation to spread out evenly across the map so they can be ready for a quick rescue if necessary, which already encourages proper gameplay. 2) The killer will be far enough away from the tunnel to give them a chance to reset or position themselves, so chase WOULD BE fun, you won’t be Insta tapped and down if you used that window of time correctly, while killer still have agency and not restricted that much. 3) Survivors are forced not to exploit system of unhooking in last moment, because dynamic stage force to leave gens, and it is natural slowdown of genrush, while not touching newer players who unhook fast and can’t play around stages anyway.
Of course this system requires many changes in the game. Devs have to consider mobility and strength of every killer, adjust slowdown and distance to every killer, maps should finally have proper design of hooks, you have to give actual info for solo survivors, you have to create proper tutorial, you have to finally address endless second chances or actual causes of proxy camp. Finally, you have to build a more developed mechanic around saves from hook. It's harder than just slap “you can’t do x thing” for players and letting do some chaotic changes only to revert them day later because other side will be furious. Devs, oh gosh, would have to actually do complicated testing and not slapping some endurance or handicapping of playstyle because they can’t fix it technically. But if you wanting actual changes of the game not related to some linear prospect, new changes have to force devs to fix already existing technical and balancing issues, not creating a new exploitable area.
Eruption with “you can't touch gen” showed how bad is forcing a pause on objective, even if it was an insignificant second. This game is about time. Why repeat same mistakes but for other side — no clue.
I mean true, your idea have right to exist as everyone else. But it’ll be rational only in case where system will force such pause of objective on survivors as well, as I hinted with my example of old eruption. And something telling me in such case, where this “fair play” hit both sides, no one would be happy.
Why would it matter how good they are at looping? You aren't looping them, they're bodyblocking you. They're giving you the hits, you don't have to waste any time getting them.
The problem with Eruption was not that it paused objective progression, there are multiple killer perks that do that which haven't been anywhere near as terrible for the game as Eruption was. The issue with Eruption is that it effectively forced survivors not to play the game at all, because they couldn't interact with anything other than chase or unhooking.
This solution may pause progression, but you still get to interact with the game. You still have real choices to make, you can still benefit from hooking that survivor if you choose to (because remember, you're trying to ignore that one survivor as much as possible), you still have complete agency in your actions and decision making. You just don't get to tunnel someone out for an easy game.There's no need to force a pause of the objective on the survivor side because that isn't currently a problem the way that tunnelling is. The most we have there is that toolboxes are still unbalanced, but you fix that by reworking toolboxes, not changing the system mechanics for survivor.
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I wouldn't say so, no.
Mostly I just want to contest that the killers who have mobility are all stronger than the killers who don't. Not only are there weak killers with mobility - others already brought up Sadako and Dredge here - but there are quite a few strong killers who don't have mobility.
Artist, Pyramid Head, Plague, Huntress, and Nemesis are all upper-end killers, all comfortably in the A tier, and none of them have any mobility. I'd also personally count Pinhead here, but strictly technically he has mobility, sort of, so maybe he doesn't count.
It reminds me of the people who say "M1 killer" when they just mean "weak killer", the terms being used don't actually define anything. What separates the good killers from the weak killers in this game is purely and simply how capable they are of running their gameplan, there's very little structural design issues in this game- not that they can't exist, a few killers do have some, but it's not an overall problem with killer design.
Obviously, good mobility is one of the strongest things a killer can have in their kit, but it isn't a practical requirement at all. Range is a good substitute, slowdown is a good substitute (think Pig, who after all her buffs is a comfortably mid-tier killer who is actually capable of running her own gameplan), antiloop on its own can be strong enough to counteract a lack of mobility.
Weaker killers just don't have strong tools period, not that they don't have this one particular strong tool.
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@tes said:
So… basically marking a person as “non - objective”.
Which either will lead to hard slug from killer or constant bodyblocking from survivor if they have brain and desire to abuse yet another wonderful idea.
I don’t see any improvements beside literally, lol, forbidding to kill.
By such logic let’s return old eruption with Incapacitated effect of provide absolutely the same system for doing generators as base kit. This is so “logical” to force a pause on objective just because other side is upset.
Well, there's some form of anti-slug coming soon, if it works out then hard slugging from the killer shouldn't be much of a concern anymore.
As for bodyblocking, nothing's stopping you from taking one of the two tactics you'd take now - ignoring them or slugging them - and you'd still be able to hook them if they make that very convenient or you have good perks to activate from it.Is there any reason you don't think what I just laid out is accurate? Do you think it'd work out differently in practice?
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@ChaosWam said:
I like the concept, but that nagging voice in my head is asking why wouldn't the survivor with the last hooked mark just bodyblock the killer, especially any M1 killer, from their next target for as long as possible since hooking them would be detrimental to the killer?
And I assume this is also with the anti-slug, so the unhooked survivor can pretty much guarantee a protection hit (twice if they get the extended BT from the update, but I'm not sure if your hypothetical is using that) and extend chases on their next target.
That said, I'd be very interested testing this kinda mechanic.Well, that's the thing- hooking them wouldn't be detrimental to the killer, it would just be less beneficial.
They're still immobilised, they still need saving, you still get to activate perks where applicable. Obviously you want to progress your objective as well, and that's why in attempted bodyblocking scenarios you'd still be doing your best to ignore them the way you would now, but if you are left unable to avoid downing the survivor with the LHM, you aren't penalised for trying to hook them if you'd have some reason to do that, like a perk or the hook being literally right next to you or something.
(Except for DS, obviously, but that's an ambient background risk now too)I don't see the anti-slug interfering with this since it's designed to allow situational slugging like this, but I mostly didn't mention it because it isn't set in stone yet, I don't know what BHVR are sticking with there.
Essentially, while this does preserve attempting to keep the heat on you by bodyblocking, it also gives the killer options in dealing with it. Ignore, slug, hook- all of these have risks and downsides, but all of them are viable picks depending on the situation, too.
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I've considered stuff like this before myself- what I'd sooner suggest is that it deactivates when someone dies, regardless of if they were tunnelled out.
Then it'd be a real incentive not to tunnel, because keeping survivors alive for longer gives you more access to a powerful perk.
(Though if we're making it activate on every hook again, I think the % should be lower than 20, that'd be probably too good)
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I have to say this take kinda confuses me a little, specifically the part about it being "one sided".
The main thing being addressed in this upcoming PTB is tunnelling, which is a survivor problem. Obviously it's going to lean towards survivor when survivor is the only role that has to deal with the problem being fixed…?
It's not as though killers can be tunnelled, or end up in tunnelling situations through no fault of their own. It's always their choice, it's always a balance problem, and it's usually also very unfun for the survivor (unless they're a maniac, which I say in awe and respect of said maniacs).
The secondary thing being addressed in this upcoming PTB is slugging, and we can immediately see the clear difference. Sometimes the killer does have to slug, and that's why those measures are much milder and more crafted around ensuring killers aren't punished for being forced to slug someone.
How well it accounts for those things we'll have to wait and see, but there's clearly far more of an attempt to be both-sided and nuanced there, because there's actually two sides to that particular problem.A lot of patches lean very heavily towards one side in terms of what changes are present, and over the past few years it's usually been killer. I'll grant this patch has more impactful changes being suggested, but if that's the problem then that's the problem, not that it's "one sided".
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In theory, penalties aren't the only way of fixing tunnelling. It'd also be just as effective to make tunnelling difficult to the point of being the worse option compared to doing literally anything else.
I have my doubts that what we've been shown will achieve that, but I'm open to being pleasantly surprised. Making survivors more difficult to chase immediately after they're unhooked is a completely feasible way of fixing tunnelling, either way- it doesn't have to be penalty-based.
Don't get me wrong, the penalties last time were completely workable, they just aren't the only solution.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021884#Comment_4021884
I don't agree. If you spread your hooks too much you will lose all of your pressure.
Let me give you an example: if you hook 4 times, each time one different survivor, everyone will be on the first hook. This mean that they have at least one extra hook to play aggressively or even reckless without worrying too much. Even if you get someone out of position and they fall down, the survivor team can probably recover from that because they will still be in 4.
Now, if with 4 hooks you hooked 2 person twice, now you will have 2 people on death hook. This mean that probably won't go for risk saves, try to greed gens or do anything that exposes them too much. NOW YOU HAVE PRESSURE because survivors are under the threat of losing one member if the killer finds the wrong person in the wrong moment.
With all of this said, hard tunneling - focusing on one person only - can be the worst decision a killer can make: you will need to power through perks, basekit DS and you won't affect survivors gen efficiency since the most easy counter to tunneling is doing gens. I've never said you need to focus on one person but you need to know to not spread your hooks on everyone on the team.
Knowing how much you need to spread hooks is part of a killer learning on how to play optimally against strong teams.
We may simply have different definitions of pressure, so to clarify, I consider pressure to be how effectively the killer is exerting control of the pace of the game. Put more simply, pressure is best measured in how many survivors are being forced or encouraged not to work on generators.
The hook, itself, is pressure: one survivor cannot do generators because they're hooked. It also leads to more pressure from someone needing to come save, which means occupying a third in a chase is pretty hefty pressure.
This is also crucial to the macro play, that is the thing you're trying to keep on top of- who is doing generators, where they're doing them, and how much influence you're exerting to get them to stop, that's what the macro of this game is. There's a little bit of keeping track of deadzones and some power-specific stuff in there too, but that's the main thrust of it.
TL;DR for this section: Hooks grant pressure innately, you don't need to wait until after they're unhooked to get the pressure.Tunnelling (chasing someone immediately or shortly after they're unhooked) is circumventing this to try and get an individual in a bad situation while leaving the others to do as they please, which is generators. Most commonly this is just to get someone dead, because that's a winning position for killer, but even bouncing between two is still trying to cash in on easier chases from post-unhooked survivors in exchange for getting to a winning position quicker.
In short, it's trying to avoid managing the 1v4. -
@AhoyWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021959#Comment_4021959
I like the second idea, it would kinda be a dead perk slot tho if the Killer doesn't take an aura reading perk, so I think it should do something on top of that effect.
I don't think that's necessarily a problem, myself- the same is also true of Distortion, and that perk has ranged over the years from just decent to absurdly strong in its niche.
Getting super precise information on exactly when the killer can see you is a pretty strong effect, I think it can weather the risk of just not doing anything if a killer doesn't bring any auras.
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It's definitely a perk that is in desperate need of a new niche. It obviously can't go back to what it was before, but there are definitely directions it can go- I've had two in mind before.
The first is to lean into its current effect. Shorten the list of things it affects to just healing, unhooking, totem cleansing, and maybe exit gate opening, then crank the % number up, and shorten the range for it to affect. That would make it a "finish this action in the killer's face" perk, with the main action it doesn't affect being repair, because that would be busted.
The second is to give it a new niche entirely. Nix everything it currently does, and have it light up if your aura is being read, alongside a small thematic effect mostly so it scales with perk tiers like suppressing grunts of pain for a few seconds or something. Basically the aura-tracking of Object without revealing your own aura, purely information.
Whatever avenue they take, though, it definitely needs some changes.
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I think the problem is more that people have an unreasonably high standard for perks, on both sides. Artist is a really good example- she didn't just have good perks, she had two perks that were TOO good, and one of them needed multiple rounds of noticeable nerfs until it's finally landed in its current resting place of… one of the strongest perks in the game.
Release Pain Resonance and Pentimento shouldn't be the standard, they were too good. Those are examples of perks that overshot a reasonable strength on release, in my opinion the ideal state for perks should absolutely be weaker than that.
Of the six killers you listed, I would argue at least five had objectively solid perks on release, as much as anything can be argued to be objective in this context. That's not a high bar, after all- the perks just have to be good enough to be noticeable and worthwhile in their intended use cases.
Houndmaster, for example, has Jagged Compass, which you mentioned too. That's a solid perk, no two ways around it, it's just good.
Even her other two perks, though- No Quarter has some good use cases when used more actively and is a reasonably okay if unreliable anti-medkit perk when used passively. All-Shaking Thunder, too, may be niche but that doesn't make it bad- it just means it has a specific effect you go out of your way to use, not that the effect is weak or unreliable by default.Taking a brief (hopefully, I tend to get long winded…) look at the other killers, we have…
Springtrap: Phantom Fear is quite solid, it's a quite good information perk that also has the added benefit of forcing a scream to interrupt actions which gives it a lot of synergies. Not necessarily top tier, but one of the stronger perks we're going to discuss in this list. Very good.
Help Wanted is more in the "decent but not great" vein, but it does at least have one very strong synergy in Machine Learning. It's fine, could do with a buff of some kind. Haywire is mediocre, fair enough on that front.Ghoul: Weaker across the board, but you have a feel-good perk that can help fool flashlight saves in Forever Entwined and a perfectly worthwhile + potentially strong endgame perk in None Are Free. While Nothing But Misery isn't good now, it's one small number buff away from being good, and I think that's worth mentioning in this context.
Dracula: I'd argue all his perks are at least "decent", with Wretched Fate being genuinely quite strong but in boring ways. The other two aren't bad though, they're just solid overall with relatively low but reliable impact. Dealer's choice how to count them but I lean towards them being solid over mediocre.
Vecna: All his perks are good. The downside for Dark Arrogance barely matters (though I will agree there's no reason not to run Bamboozle over it - this perk is badly designed, not weak), Weave Attunement's synergy with Franklin's wasn't affected by that perk's nerf, and Languid Touch is an extremely solid anti-Exhaustion perk that can counter basically any Exhaustion perk other than Sprint Burst. These are just good perks, strength-wise.
Unknown: This one I'll grant. Unforeseen is okay, but Unbound is mediocre and Undone is miserably awful.
There are very decent good perks in there, they just aren't on the same level of Pain Resonance and other top-tier perks. I don't think that's a problem, necessarily, even if a few of these perks could use buffs on their own merits.
Also as an aside I don't want to seem like I'm supporting the opposite claim, so just to be clear: Survivor perks across this same time period are just as good if not better on average as the killer perks, recent releases have been pretty good overall with only a few flops.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021792#Comment_4021792
People on this forums want killer to brainless commit chases until the match is lost or they hooked everyone twice before they start killing.
Really, people tend to ignore macroplay and want to killers do it too.
Hooking multiple people multiple times before a death is the killer macro play, it's spreading your pressure across the whole team to slow down generator repair.
You don't have to two-hook everyone before the first death, obviously, but focusing down one player is explicitly trying to circumvent the macro play for killer.
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For a long time the most solid answer to that question would've been Predator, that perk used to be actively detrimental to run.
Nowadays, I'd say… someone else said Undone and that's a solid pick, that perk is really hard to get anything out of, but I'd also hesitantly say Territorial Imperative.
There's basically no perk in the game for either side that has no use cases - Whispers isn't even that bad as a "do I need to be in this area" sort of info perk, and This Is Not Happening is pretty good for new players + has some niche builds - but there are a handful of perks that have very limited use cases and aren't that great even for those use cases, which is where Territorial Imperative is. Most of the killers who'd want to capitalise on survivors entering the basement can't react quickly considering the range requirement, and it's not as though survivors regularly going to the basement is a guarantee or anything.A lot of the really underwhelming perks from back in the day have seen a fresh coat of paint lately though, which is nice. Predator, Zanshin Tactics, Gearhead, Shadowborn, even Beast of Prey is a lot more useable than it used to be. It's questions like these that can prompt reflecting on how far we've come, lol.
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It's not that surprising to see Myers up there, in my opinion, it's been my experience that new releases and fresh reworks are always the most popular killers in that timeframe. The same thing happened to Freddy in the official stats, if you recall.
What's more surprising to me is that Nurse isn't in the top ten, considering the stats are from nightlight. You'd expect the ways in which that dataset is limited to result in the best killers being more represented than they are in the real stats, or at least I would.
Maybe Nurse's reputation has just fallen more than the other top few killers. Interesting to think about- I'd be very interested to hear how she stacks up in official stats compared to this.
Also damn, Demogorgon bottom five? It's not that bad, that's pretty crazy low for it.
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@Choaron said:
Because of basic maths? As long as DBD remains an 1v4 game (aka forever and ever), tunneling will always remain a prime efficiency strategy for killer. That's just how it is.
To be fair, if it isn't possible to tunnel, killers would be forced to manage the 1v4 differently.
The only reason it's a prime efficiency strategy (sort of- the act itself is very inefficient but you're trading that for later efficiency) for killer is because of the fact that chasing someone who was just unhooked is significantly easier than chasing anyone else. If that changed, it wouldn't be a worthwhile trade anymore, and tunnelling would stop being the most optimal strategy- you'd have to manage the 1v4 instead of trying to turn it into a 1v3 as soon as possible.
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So, I watched this video, and two things leapt out at me.
First, this person makes the argument that the anti-tunnel measures being discussed for the next PTB are a sledgehammer reaction to spreadsheet metrics, talking about survey results and such, but doesn't ever seem to acknowledge that tunnelling has been the game's biggest and most contentious problem basically since release, which seems like pretty vitally important context to me.
I mean, patch 6.1.0 was also a big swing towards addressing tunnelling, and that was pretty handily before BHVR started putting out the more consistent surveys, especially the ones specifically talking about tunnelling and why players leave, as far as I remember. This isn't a new problem and it's not new that BHVR are looking at fixing it, so trying to make out like it's a modern poison causing them to bury their nose in data seems suspect to me.
Second, the claim that BHVR are only ever looking at spreadsheet data seems suspect in general. It's not very well evidenced in this video, and it seems to ignore a lot of the more qualitative changes BHVR have made over the past few years, stuff like the survivor HUD and the killer FOV slider, not to mention the various killer changes that are very much responses to the feel of the killer rather than the raw numbers.
In fact, look at the way they talk about the slugging changes. They say outright that BHVR are only looking at the spreadsheet metrics showing player frustration and aren't paying attention to why killers slug, but… they are. They've talked about it at length. They've mentioned multiple times they want to make sure slugging situationally for pressure is maintained as an option and only aggressive slug-everyone strategies get weakened, that's the entire purpose of the proposed changes.
It's one thing to disagree with their reasoning and think it could be done better, but it's another to claim they don't have any reasoning at all regarding the whys of it. It feels a little disingenuous to me.
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@Deadman7600 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021129#Comment_4021129
I specifically am talking about the uninstall survey, this is where my big data collection issue is displayed. It's meant to provide information about why people are uninstalling and as I said the survey (not necessarily bhvr) is biased because of a lack of killer specific questions.
It's also so infuriating because an uninstall survey could have yielded so much good information about both sides and how the game is for both, but in that survey tunnelling and camping are both lumped together and slugging is entirely absent (which is wild to me) and killers don't have a real identifiable specific answer to the question based on the things they frequently complain about. This is a really bad way to do that because we cannot measure the severity of each issue seperately for both sides. If the experience that made me uninstall was a continuous chain of 4 man slug matches I'd have no way of communicating that in the actual graphable question. The more I look at this the more I'm realising that maybe its not that biased just a really bad survey.
specifically I'm going off this screenshot (ignore the red stuff I took this from a different thread)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/PCOPKAJR4L0C/image.png
About the other data BHVR might have, I cannot respond to this because I have no idea what they have. Unless they disclose all their working and their data on what goes on around tunnelling I only have their public surveys to go on and as I've mentioned I find them to be very poor.
Just to reiterate, I don't think bhvr is 'survivor sided' like a player may be, but I think they absolutely are data sided and this is the data they're collecting. It's not great, and given that the survivor playerbase is larger (therefore more will be leaving), collecting no data on killer players is a very bad decision because you cannot compare the issues killers are facing to each other and you cannot see which are the most severe essentially stunting the information they can collect.
Hopefully I better explained what my actual issue was here because my last message was a bit nebulous.
Gotcha. I didn't know this survey existed when I wrote that comment, that's pretty much the only important thing to say here.
I recall the previous survey did have questions about leaving, so that and the recent livestream are what I was talking about.
I still think this survey existing because BHVR already know who is leaving and want to know why is perfectly reasonable, but that's not what my previous comments were referencing.
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Would you mind elaborating on that first part?
What is it that BHVR said to push the narrative that trying to win makes you a bad person…? I'm not sure I'm following.
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@Deadman7600 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021108#Comment_4021108
the issue was that the survey lacked questions specifically relating to the issues killers complain about. If I were looking at an ideal survey graph (with answers that were specific to either side) to answer the question 'which side has been leaving the most' I could then compare the killer specific answers to the survivor specific answers and see which category has been selected the most. I could also see what was the biggest issue selected by survivors and killers separately, I could make judgements of what should be high priority changes for both sides and generally I'd have a lot more information than 'people don't like tunnelling, slugging and camping'.
From what I've seen of this survey there was one survivor specific answer and a whole load of very general ones that killers could select but were too umbrella to really get any information from because survivor mains could also have these problems. This means the survey (intentionally or not) was biased, the information provides no room for comparison, which means there's no way to measure the severity of any of these issues.
As for the text boxes, those are impossible to accurately analyse because they cannot be graphed, and really act as filler which some poor employee is gonna have to mindlessly scan through and take a few notes on interesting quotes or what they see a lot of.
This isn't me being tribal btw, I don't mind the changes they've mentioned are coming to ptb. This is just bad data collection that provides no value other than throwaway statements. And given they take a data first approach, that is very troubling.
Isn't it an assumption that the question was "which side is leaving more"?
It's not impossible to imagine BHVR have some way of already knowing it's survivors, and so what they wanted was to answer the question "why are so many survivors leaving" instead.
Though for the record, that one specific question probably should have killer options, in my opinion. When I say that it's not really a problem for language and surveys to be geared towards survivors, I'm talking about the context of addressing tunnelling, which is a survivor problem- if BHVR are talking about it or asking questions about it, it's pretty reasonable that those comments and questions are geared more towards the side that experiences the problem.
Remember, the context here was also about a stream and comments therein that were supposedly survivor biased, not just any one survey.Basically, TL;DR, there's no reason to assume BHVR need information about both sides here when it's a survivor problem being discussed. If they already know which side has the answers they want, it's fairly reasonable to just ask that side the questions.
Could've been handled better, definitely, but I don't think it's inherently evidence of a bias.
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@Deadman7600 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020022#Comment_4020022
I've seen this on the forums before, and it baffles me. Surveys are not meant to be geared towards anything, they are meant to be the whole picture which then can be converted into a graph for comparison. Having a survey geared towards anything is already a failure because it entirely nullifies comparison (one of the most important parts of data collection).
I'm not sure I agree. Surely if you want information about a specific topic, a survey is one of the ways you could go about collecting that information?
I mean, any survey BHVR conduct is going to be geared towards the video game Dead By Daylight, for example, no survey is truly general. Why is it a problem for it to be geared towards a specific part of Dead By Daylight?
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@Metagamer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020042#Comment_4020042
In my opinion, bad plays should lose you games yes. Dropping pallets that incidentally create really big deadzones is something you should be paying attention to. Bad players should lose, not get the opportunity to make 3 more bad plays before they get lightly slapped on the wrist.
I think the question is more if the game should be that punishing.
If there's an area where dropping one pallet creates a massive deadzone, then within that area a good player would be much more careful about throwing that pallet than a bad player would be, and their results would reflect that. The more important question to ask is should there be areas where dropping one pallet creates a massive deadzone, and if that's a fair level of skill expression versus punishment for poor play to expect of every player.
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That's an interesting concept, I hadn't considered that before. I'm assuming you mean that the survivor can be damaged, downed, and hooked as normal, but their hook counter doesn't progress?
If so, then the first thing we need to consider is if such a thing can be abused, but I'm not so sure it could be. Hypothetically someone could go out of their way to bodyblock, as is the case with many forms of anti-tunnel and especially what we have right now, but if they're not actually harder to down then you can easily slug them the way you do now, or you could choose to hook them if you've got some relevant perks or just want them to be more properly immobilised + get the pressure from someone needing to save.
Hypothetically, with the right surrounding changes, that could limit tunnelling while still allowing killers agency in responding to more aggressive players. It could be tested for sure.
The biggest problem I can see is that it might not be intuitive to newer players, haha.
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To play devil's advocate, couldn't you argue that knowing the killer is within X metres of the hook isn't actually all that much information if they're not camping?
If the killer's Undetectable, you only have a radius where they're moving, you don't know what side of the hook they're on or what direction they're moving in. If it's a multi-floor map you won't know which floor they're on, either.
With that in mind, I think it's worth examining if this really will hurt stealth killers.
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@Crowman said:
What's the point of undetectable if we can just ignore it anyways?
The devs seem like they really want DBD to go the way of their competitors where the survivor role gets prioritized so much that killers just abandon and the game dies.
You can only ignore it for ten seconds after an unhook, though. It's still completely intact for chasing any other survivor at any other time.
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While I'm not going to commit to an opinion fully until I've seen it in action, I do think this isn't quite as strong as you're making it out to be.
Punishing healing under the hook is still doable, you'd just chase the healer instead, which is the entire goal of this system so that's entirely fine.
A survivor on comms can already just sprint around the map and relay where the killer is after an unhook, it might be slightly safer with this new system but it's only ten seconds, that'll run out pretty quick.
I'd also point out, it's not like the unhooked survivor can use this info to help a teammate in chase or something, mindgames need quicker reactions than you can feasibly communicate verbally.Frankly, ten seconds might be too short for this to really work for what it's meant to do, but I'll wait to see it in action before committing to that. There may be some potential abuses I can't predict to be concerned about.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020009#Comment_4020009
Im a Redditor and I use reddit
?
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020022#Comment_4020022
Because its ignoring the entire picture. Even in the stream they seem to have no idea why killers tunnel. That right there is a very important and valid question to ask killer players: "hey why do you tunnel? Do you feel like you have to?" they even did it when they said that tunneling happens more at higher MMRs and just "well that's interesting, we aren't sure why, but maybe we could theorycraft something" like, don't you think that is relevant to the problem?
It's not exactly something that needs deep research. Killers tunnel because it's unbalanced, that's always been why it happens.
There are definitely killer problems to fix too, but they're largely unrelated to tunnelling. Tunnelling just happens to be the response most killers choose because it's the most bang for your buck regarding effort to value.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020009#Comment_4020009
Its because it shows what the devs are thinking.
I don't actually care about what changes are being proposed, as that is not relevant to me at the moment, they aren't in the game, they need to go through PTB where they may receive some changes, or maybe even be scrapped again completely.
What matters to me is the language that the devs are using. I would suggest you watch Choy's video on this stream, its a bit long, but he points out that the language the devs are using indicates (i'm not saying proves) but indicates that they don't actually care about the killer players. Every word, every change, every reason behind every change is geared towarded
- "this is how survivor players feel"
- "we want player agency to matter (then proceeds to only describe things that are survivor things with agence)"
- "players described this as handholding, you know, you get all these cool basekit things for killer thats handholding"
Even in the recent information about the survey, they said camping and tunneling are the reason most players uninstall. Look even at the QUESTIONS on the survey when they adressed slugging a while back asking how players felt about it. Did they even have a SINGLE question that was geared toward killer players asking WHY they tunneled or slugged? Or asking them if they felt like they HAD to?
Again, i'm not saying that the devs are biased, i am not privvy to some secret information that would prove one way or the other. But they constantly keep releasing information, or posing questions, or posing changes and doing so in a way where they are obviously gearing toward survivor players.
Hell even in PATCH NOTES whenever they buff a killer for some completely unknown reason they ALWAYS nerf something about them, literally like every single time. The only exception to this is when they are reverting nerfs they previously did. The last time we had big changes that affected all killers was back in 6.1.0 which was almost 3 and a half YEARS AGO.
Look at their proposed buffs for the skull merchant. Even THOSE have some NERFS in them. WHY? She is horrible, her pick rate is horrible, her kill rate is horrible, and you INTENTIONALLY NERFED HER INTO OBLIVION so that people would NOT play her. A dev literally admitted this on stream, she wasn't nerfed for balance reasons, they just wanted people to stop playing her so people would stop complaining so they could spend time to rework her.
So my question to the devs is simple.
- Where are the surveys asking killer players how they feel about the game?
- Where are the surveys asking killer players why they are uninstalling?
- Where are the changes for killers who are really horribly undertuned that are actually just buffs and not "side grades"
- When are you going to ask killer players about the problems they face and what they would like to see changed?
I mean, this is a survivor problem we're all currently discussing here. Why wouldn't the surveys and language be primarily geared towards survivors?
It's not as though they never do anything for killers, or neglect to keep killers in mind for proposed changes. That's literally why the previous PTB had all those things delayed, it wasn't because it was causing problems for the survivors in those games.
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Can I ask, sincerely, what is the reason behind people making a big deal of this?
It's not as though they said one set of changes was good and just but the other was handholdy and bad, the video you showed opened with them talking about how the rest of the changes were too restrictive and hardline for most people's tastes. I disagree with that, but they still acknowledged it there.
Realistically the only handholding change in the whole PTB was the basekit BBQ, since that'd allow players to completely brainlessly autopilot macro play.
Don't get me wrong, I could see that still being a healthy change, but that's neither here nor there. -
I wouldn't say the pallet changes were handholding as much as they were just an honest mistake. The stated goal was just to reduce deadzones, there's nothing handholdy about that in my opinion, it's just that they went overboard and also changed a few maps that didn't need to be changed.
The basekit BBQ though, you could absolutely argue that's handholding. It basically autopilots killer macro play - not necessarily good macro play, that'd still require decision making, but the basic notion of keeping track of survivors and actively attempting to spread pressure after a hook becomes a little no-brainer if you are just guaranteed to see someone you can make a beeline for without having made the decision to dedicate a perk slot to it.
Personally it didn't bother me that much, I think a little handholding can sometimes be a necessary evil to promote better gameplay, but I can understand why they walked it back and why some people were unhappy with it.The basekit Pop was just a little unnecessary imo. I didn't hate it either, but I do think more things needed to be changed to accommodate it than were present on the PTB.
If you want to boost basekit killer regression healthily, I'd personally argue simply making regression after a kick faster would do the trick. You can't really benefit from that without going and chasing survivors to keep them off the gen, and it'd sideways boost a few perks that could really benefit from it like Oppression or Surge.
Some things would have to change there too obviously - bringing Ruin's % value back down would be appropriate - but it's a better first step imo. -
Others have raised similar points, but I still want to make my case here, because I feel BHVR are attempting to address why killers tunnel- though how well they'll achieve this is a separate matter, of course.
When people bring up balance issues of any stripe to say "this is why killers tunnel", they're making a mistake- they're actually trying to pin down one step away from square one as the root, instead of square one itself.
If gen speeds are too high, if healing is too powerful, if maps are too unbalanced, none of that directly leads to "chase someone as soon as they're unhooked". What those things do lead to is a very reasonable need to find an answer of some kind. The more unbalanced the thing you're facing, the more of a shortcut you'll need on your end, that's broadly how it goes, you answer heat on their end with heat on your end.
The reason people pick tunnelling in particular to be that answer is because tunnelling is the most unbalanced thing in the game, maybe only second to a full dedicated genrushing SWF — by which I mean everyone has a stacked toolbox build and rushes gens, not just being efficient or bringing a handful of gen speed perks spread across the team.
It's certainly the single most unbalanced part of the game's basekit, everything else (on both sides to some degree) requires perks or some other loadout option. Tunnelling is completely basekit.The root cause of tunnelling is that tunnelling is unbalanced. Without it, you'd see other answers to various survivor tools or strategies, and some of them would even be legitimate- you mention healing in your post, and there are definitely legitimate answers to that, even if you're looking at the strongest possible healing tools on the survivor side.
That's why tunnelling just needs to go. It isn't an authentic part of the game's skill expression or gameplay loop, it isn't a necessary evil holding back something worse, it isn't required in order to stand a chance at winning, it's just a free "quick and easy value" button.
(Though, quick note, the nature of the game inherently shifts after all the gens are done- at that point tunnelling is much more justifiable because you really don't have as much to do. This is referring to the main meat of the match still being in progress, so to speak.)
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To be fair, it's not as though they fundamentally altered how Myers works. He still has basically the same abilities, he just engages with them in a different and frankly more streamlined way- and they preserved the one thing they did change as a cheap addon, to boot.
A little different to fundamentally shifting Skull Merchant to a completely different killer archetype, let alone the specifics of her power.
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@crogers271 said:
Okay, when I saw the title I thought this meant balanced across all MMRs. Basically which killer is likely to retain the same kill rate regardless of the MMR you look at.
On that criteria, probably Wesker. Oni is pretty weak for a new killer player, Wraith too strong for a new killer player and too weak later.
Other thoughts - Huntress, Dredge, Demo
I wouldn't necessarily look at kill rate at all here, personally speaking, it's too misleading. Look at Nurse- strongest killer in the game, but her kill rate fluctuates a lot.
What I'd look at more is general design, what tools does the killer have and how can they be reliably applied for consistent results across a number of variables- so skill level/MMR would be one, but also across different maps, at different tiles, how much variety in addon choice and perk choice, that sort of thing.
"Most balanced" to me should imply a level of flexibility, or at the very least a static set of upsides/downsides that don't vary too much due to things outside your control.It's why I pick Wraith, I think he has one of the most stable, consistent, fair/honest and balanced kits in the game with a good amount of flexibility. Wesker's not a bad shout though, he's a good pick too and pretty popular.
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@tes said:
Oni
Interesting pick- what makes you say Oni in particular?