jesterkind
jesterkind
About
- Username
- jesterkind
- Joined
- Visits
- 17,633
- Last Active
Comments
-
I've been a proponent of this idea for a long time, and while I do still think it's hypothetically one of the best ways of addressing tunnelling, there is one snag I've never been fully sure how to address: Survivors using this lack of collision for saves.
Without collision, the survivor can phase in to the killer and drop a flashbang, or run through them to get a pallet drop prompt, without the killer being able to do anything about it.
IF a solution to that problem can be found, I'm all for it. I've toyed with stuff in the past myself, like survivors not being able to use items while intangible, but that only fixes half the problem- I'm curious if you've got any ideas for addressing it!
-
@UndeddJester said:
If you build for it, you can get 74% self unhook chance across 6 attempts with Slippery Meat, Up the Ante and a Vigo' Lips offering, without any support from your team... which is just silly to me.
Frankly, you could even take its current effect off it in exchange for this and it'd still be much better, though at that point some small secondary effect would probably be fair to give it.
This is a direction I agree with.
Before the AFC was reworked, I would have given this perk an extra 4m on the killer AFC radius and have every 15% of AFC progress pause the sacrifice timer for 4 seconds as a basekit anti-camp perk, since the only other perks that provide this are Reassurance and Camaradarie, which are both paywall perks.
However with the AFC change this doesn't work so well as the AFC scales geometrically as long as the killer remains in range... maybe the extra range might be enough? Not sure.
I see the vision behind wanting it to be an AFC-emboldening perk, but I think there might be better directions to look considering the new buffs to that system.
One thing I thought might be interesting is to replace the self-unhook chance with no pools of blood or scratch marks for 40 seconds. That way, players can run it and OTR for a homebrew Elusive effect (except stronger because Elusive cancelled on Conspicuous Actions, which OTR's stealth effects don't and I don't think SP's should either).
There would be one effect shared between each perk, but I think they'd stand on their own well enough, on top of synergising. Options for multiple playstyles, and it's definitely on brand with the idea of being slippery. -
I think it's possible, yes, but there needs to be some willingness to take the plunge and address problems after they arise instead of handwringing about them before they happen.
What I think we can learn, constructively, from the previous PTBs attempts is that BHVR don't want to add in very disruptive systems that actively stop players from making decisions in the game. I have my issues with this, but thankfully I think meaningful anti-tunnel is still achievable within that framework, so what I've pitched before is the following:
When a survivor is unhooked, they gain a mark on their portrait the way they do now, which we'll call Last Hooked for simplicity. If a survivor with Last Hooked is hooked again, they do not gain a hook state, and their hook timer does not tick down until the Last Hooked mark is removed.
Last Hooked is removed under the following conditions: The survivor performs a Conspicuous Action (which should include flashlight and pallet saves, for the record), 90 seconds have passed, or another survivor gets unhooked (at which point the Last Hooked mark transfers to them instead).What this achieves is that killers are able to target someone fresh off a hook if they have good reason to (like that player being super aggressive, or them having hook-related perks they want to activate quicker), but what they get out of it isn't progress towards a 1v3— instead they just slow down the game by immobilising one survivor and forcing another to come save while a third gets chased.
It'd naturally be in the killer's best interests to chase someone else, but their choice isn't being taken away, they can still choose to target that one survivor if circumstances demand. You'd no longer be able to force someone out of the game early for an easy win, but you'd still have the ability to chase that survivor for other reasons.The "carrot" side of that stick for killers should probably be a toolbox rework, to definitively address genrushing, and possibly some adjustments to hook-denial strategies since those are quite strong at the moment. I like the idea of basekit incentives, but I think BHVR don't at this point, so I'm being realistic.
-
Seconding the above- actually getting a save obviously should be a conspicuous actions, but other uses of those items can be defensive and tunnelled survivors should probably have access to them.
-
@Emeal said:
Once again putting features that should be basekit onto perks to limit build freedom.
Like I said, I don't agree that this should be basekit.
Keeping track of where survivors are via ambient information like crows, scratch marks, and unhook notifications is important, and while removing any one of those isn't that big of a deal, I also don't think it's a good idea.
Don't get me wrong, obviously there needs to be more basekit anti-tunnel, but I don't think this particular effect is one of the things that should change there.
-
I'd love to see some Buffy rep in DBD, absolutely.
The question is, survivor only or do they go for a killer? I kinda feel they wouldn't want to use any of the iconic villains who get reformed, so maybe they'd go for the Master?
I could see him being pretty fun to play around with, design space wise. -
I like the idea for the two PTB-only iterations, but to be fair original Furtive Chase was so terrible that nobody ever used it, there's not really much point to making it a universal perk.
I'd be super down to see the other two, though, I liked both of those perks and I'd definitely use both in some builds.
-
While I do understand the point and think it's broadly good to consider both sides, and even think there's some conversations to be had about chain blinding and if it could potentially be adjusted, it's a mistake to only focus on tunnelling being unfun.
It's true that tunnelling is often unfun the same way chain blinding is often unfun, but there's another element to consider- tunnelling is also unbalanced, and chain blinding isn't.
That is the more important element of tunnelling and should always get first billing in discussions about it, often even the only thing that should be discussed. Fun is subjective and therefore difficult to engineer, but balance has firmer footing to discuss and tunnelling clearly trips that wire, so to speak.
To tie it into your larger point, true, neither side has the responsibility for the other side's fun… but the developers do, and they also have a responsibility to ensure matches are generally as fair as possible.
-
@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033295#Comment_4033295
I don't expect it to be fixed right away but at least something like "Hey we messed up with this live release and plan on fixing it" before trying to announce the next DLC for us to buy.
Two days is still extremely fast even for that kind of communication, though.
Frankly if I saw a comment from the devs that fast I wouldn't trust they'd actually evaluated all the complaints themselves.
-
It's been two days, that'd be kinda quick to hear back from pretty much any developer.
From the dev's perspective they've only barely had time to sift through the responses and evaluate them to see if they're legitimate, I wouldn't expect communication from pretty much any dev until at minimum a week has passed personally.
-
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033182#Comment_4033182
survivors can do gens in 5min without tools. 4 survivors, the killer can only chase 1 at a time unless the survivors take the chase to a gen being worked on. 3 that are not in chase working on gens, all 3 can pop in under 2min, thats basekit speed.
In order for that to be true, the killer's first chase would have to last noticeably over 90 seconds, to account for the travel time needed to have the other three split up on separate gens.
If the killer's first chase isn't that long, they get a hook, and gen repair slows down noticeably afterwards.
-
@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033133#Comment_4033133
that's what they tried with old ruin and it dumpstered ruin if killer perks disabled themselves after one person died the meta would shift dropping all gen regression and just swapping to chase perks (till their nerfed into the ground too) and people will swap to exclusively high tiers and tunnel more
Assuming you're referring to 6.1.0's changes there, it was the combination of both nerfs that led to Ruin being a little mediocre.
If they'd reversed the other nerf, and we had 200% Ruin that disables when someone dies, it'd be even better than it is now and healthier to boot.
Though, honestly, Ruin isn't even necessarily one of the perks I'd choose for this particular change, since it also already has a deactivation trigger.
-
I'd lean harder in the opposite direction, myself.
+75% efficiency only when healing teammates. That way it actually outperforms even double-charge setups for altruistic healing, but you don't have to worry about it getting out of control for self-heals because it doesn't affect them.
Personally I really do want to see altruistic uses of medkits made a bit more impactful in general.
-
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033164#Comment_4033164
its a race, gen speed v kills. fastest side wins. survivors can do gens in 5 min, killer is supposed to get 12 hooks in that timeframe. i can see why people take shortcuts when the opponent is faster.
if survivors have not done 1 gen by the time it takes to tunnel out 1 player then thats a misplay by the survivors.
Survivors can do gens in five minutes only in scenarios where they are also leveraging seriously unbalanced tools.
That's also a balance issue. Both need addressing.
-
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033150#Comment_4033150
its all basekit, tunneling, spreading hooks, looping, stealth. all playstyles that people can opt to use.
killer cant kill fast enough before gens pop? answer is tunnel.
survivor cant loop at all? answer is stealth.
they are not shortcuts, they are methods of playing.
the expectations do play a big part in why people seem to get stressed and cant win though. maybe people shouldnt play to whats expected of them and play to whatever works for them.
One of those things is a shortcut, specifically because of how the game's designed.
If you target a survivor who has just been unhooked - which is the definition of tunnelling I use - then you get to benefit from a much easier chase for zero requirements or tradeoff.
The survivor starts the chase injured, already a benefit, and they also do not get to make any distance on you while you approach because they're stuck in the animation of being unhooked. It's a chase that starts tilted heavily towards the killer, requiring much more from the survivor to counter than it takes for the killer to perform.
This, already, is an imbalance. This alone would be enough to warrant addressing tunnelling. However, there's an extra step.Because those chases are likely to be much shorter due to the above, a killer can use this shortcut to force someone out of the game early, gaining the massive advantage of a dead survivor. If that happens early enough, they have won outright, the best players in the world would struggle to win a 1v3 at five gens against an even just competent killer.
If it happens later in the match though, it's still a huge advantage that the killer got for basically nothing. They just got easy chases into a massive advantage, that's it.The only thing holding this back in real matches is a combination of genuinely pretty strong perks that help counter this tactic if they are brought into that match, and the fact that there are definitely killers out there who fumble even the easy chase that comes with tunnelling.
-
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033148#Comment_4033148
You are literally saying that the "punishment" that the killer would receive by disabling pain res, is actually not a punishment but that they receive less of a "benefit"
No you don't get to do that, perks are a core mechanic of the game. You don't get to say that they are a "benefit" and taking it away just means "well you lost your benefit" no thats not how that works.
How about if a gen gets done before a hook survivors lose all their exhaustion perks? You aren't really losing anything, you are just losing a benefit that you get in the normal game.
I don't think that's a very helpful comparison, but to answer it: Those two things aren't linked.
It isn't being suggested that all of a killer's perks disable with this condition- OP didn't even commit to specifically stating all slowdown perks, just Pain Resonance in particular.
Those perks are perks that are specifically helpful for slowing the generator progress down. If you gain the advantage of being able to slow the generator progress down to zero all on your own, getting to put repair into the negatives with Pain Resonance is clearly unnecessary and overkill.
In other words, there's a direct link between the specific perks being talked about, and the proposed disabling condition.
The question may then become talking about survivor generator speed perks, and if those should disable after a certain amount of generators are done, and to that we would necessarily have to ask: Is there actually currently a problem created by those tools being active after that phase of the game the way that there is for the killer tools being discussed?
Personally, I would answer no. Any problematic generator speed tools are specifically used on the first few generators, and any unbalanced options would be unbalanced when used that way too. The response to that problem would be to tackle the tools directly because that would actually address the specific problem.
Compare that to the current situation, where early 1v3 situations are already extremely difficult to overcome and slowdown perks present an unnecessary extra barrier, but those slowdown perks aren't particularly problematic used earlier in the match or while everyone's alive.The game's asymmetrical, you can't expect the solutions to even roughly equivalent problems on both sides to be identical.
-
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033144#Comment_4033144
are you saying people cant win without looping?
i would also question how "skilful" it is looping a basic, slow m1 killer with little to no anti loop.
More that there's an expectation to engage with chases.
My overall point, though, is that comparing tunnelling and looping doesn't work, because one is a basekit shortcut one side gets to take and the other is a central pillar of the game for both sides.
-
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033133#Comment_4033133
No, a perk isn't an "advantage" it is a core mechanic of the game. You don't get to rebrand it just to fit your narrative.
The advantage is the dead survivor. Currently slowdown perks stack on top of that advantage, but removing that stacking does not remove the core advantage.
-
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032897#Comment_4032897
sure, when survivors learn to win without looping then you can tell killers to win without tunneling
How are those things equivalent?
Looping isn't even a solely survivor skill, both players engage with looping in every match because it's one of the major design pillars of DBD.
That's not to say it's the only skill expression, it isn't, but it is a necessary type of skill expression in order to be good, for both sides.If we're going to look for a survivor equivalent to tunnelling, then first we have to admit that there isn't one in a literal sense because tunnelling is basekit and there's nothing in the survivor basekit like it (a good thing, ftr), but even expanding out into loadouts the equivalent would be something like toolbox builds, nothing chase-related.
The skill expression killers get to circumvent by tunnelling is pretty much everything in the macro (tracking, pressure, map resource management, etc) and also a good chunk of the chase-focused skill expression by starting chases that are stacked in their favour.
Survivors don't really have anything like that, but brute-forcing their objective with toolboxes would be the closest they come. -
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032898#Comment_4032898
This has been proven time and time again to be a bad thing. Lets say hypothetically you hook a survivor twice, now that survivor becomes "immune". They can intentionally throw themselves at the killer, get in the way, and be a bother and the killer can do nothing to stop them because if they do "oh well you did the bad thing so now you get punished naughty killer".
Even with the whole like "oh slugging for a long time is bad and slugging the whole team is bad. Like, there are plenty of times where like a bubba, or a trickster can just down the whole team because they get totally outplayed. Why should they be given another chance at that point to get back into the match when they messed up so badly that all 4 of them get downed in rapid succession?
I don't understand this fascination with punishing a killer for playing well and doing exactly the thing they are supposed to be doing.
I do think it's worth pointing out that the "punishment" the killer receives here is that they gain slightly less of a huge advantage compared to live servers.
It's not even resetting the killer player to neutral - they lose access to remaining Pain Res tokens, and in exchange, gain the ability to halt generator repair entirely through basic gameplay alone. Someone dead is a huge advantage, having access to strong slowdown perks on top of that is overkill.
Broadly, to OP's topic more generally, I do think this kind of restriction is helpful for slowdown perks. In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that most of them should be balanced around disabling when someone dies period, regardless of gen count.
It's not the only change I'd make, but it would be a good one. -
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032810#Comment_4032810
delaying it is all thats needed. delay it long enough for gens to be done. less killers would tunnel if it meant they got 1k or 2k at best.
Hypothetically, sure, but it's not really sustainable for the whole team to do.
Stealth has been intentionally weakened to not keep the killer off you forever (though don't get me wrong it is still strong and worthwhile in general), and not everyone is going to be able to evade the killer for that reason. All it takes is for the killer to find one survivor without multiple gens being done and tunnelling is still very much an option for them.
YOU can evade the killer long enough to make tunnelling YOU not appealing, but that only works if one or maybe two players on the team are trying for it. Tunnelling is still a problem from a holistic perspective.
-
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032806#Comment_4032806
the counter is preventing it before it starts. just like a counter to noed is clear the totems during the match to prevent it activating at the end. or predropping pallets, its preventing whats to come. losing line of sight while being tunneled is another way to counter it
Playing stealthy doesn't prevent tunnelling, though, it at best delays it.
Unless you're so stealthy you aren't ever hooked, you are still able to be tunnelled, because the killer just has to chase you after you're unhooked for that.
-
@Reinami said:
The point to that is tunneling is far less effective if the survivor can actually loop. It takes too long to down someone when they are constantly aware. Generally the killer needs to rely on getting the drop on a stationary survivor doing a gen, or healing, or other thing to land a quick first hit. But if y ou are just chasing them constantly they are able to run you for a long time.
Yeah, you might still die, but the killer throws the match to get that 1 kill.
This may not be OP's point necessarily but it is worth mentioning that "just learn how to loop" ignores the most fundamentally important part of tunnelling, which is that it's not a regular chase.
To beat tunnelling with looping ability, to the point where the killer's throwing to chase you, you don't just have to be good in general- you have to be better than the killer by a very wide margin, because they're getting to start the chase with it tilted heavily in their favour.
To an extend, yeah, you're gonna have to learn how to loop, but that isn't the secret trick to beat tunnelling- it's a balance problem all the same.
-
While Corrupt Intervention is an extremely valuable perk (and honestly it's unorthodox but I kinda want it to become a universal perk and Plague to get a new teachable for this reason), I do have one issue with it becoming a basekit feature, and that's the pressure it puts on certain killers to rigidly stick to only one playstyle.
Trapper is the golden example here. Is CI a bad perk for Trapper? Well, that depends- if you want to play a setup heavy playstyle, yes, it's counter productive. Survivors both get pushed towards your web before it's done, and get gifted untouched generators on the opposite side of the map to said web. It's a bad pick if you want to set up and just not concern yourself with the generators furthest from you.
However, CI is a good perk for Trapper if you want to be more aggressive, only setting down one or two traps before going and playing M1 chases + utilising traps mid-chase.
Making it basekit effectively locks out any Trapper player from actually trying to set up because the feature would run completely counter to their intended playstyle.
In the same vein but to a lesser extent, Ghostface and Myers might want to play aggressive and have the survivors run into them, or they might want to try and leverage survivors being in predictable, static spots to get some early uninterrupted stalking in. Basekit Corrupt would force them to only do the former.
When it comes to giving killers basekit buffs to help them out if any proper anti-tunnel came to live, I think the focus should be more on giving players a helping hand towards keeping pressure up, rather than directly helping them with the early game. That said, I do think we should get more perks like Corrupt and Lethal, because both are excellent for helping killers who need a boost in the early game.
Admittedly Lethal less so than Corrupt because it universally benefits everyone, including the top tiers, but still. New perks in this vein can have the "disable when someone's downed" stipulation built in like Corrupt does to mitigate this.For bonus points, there should be multiple varied choices for this in the universal pool, so players aren't required to purchase new killers or gamble on the Shrine to benefit from this. There are some useless universal killer perks, can always rework those if we don't want too many new ones added.
-
@mecca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032512#Comment_4032512
I mean, not sure how much proof we need how much they really hate survivors lol.
Wish they would sale the game to a new dev team before it's too late. It has potential to be a fun game.
I think it's probably more to do with the fact the patch went live yesterday.
-
@UnicornMedal said:
My issue is that it's the same old song and dance. But this time it's far worse.
They run all these surveys and have their CMs fish for feedback and then they parrot it so that we feel heard. This "year of health" brought up a lot of issues players discuss often, whether anyone agrees with every individual point or not. The initial proposals were strong too, which was mostly a good sign.
However, like clockwork, every feature is canned for one reason or another and all we're left with are flaccid numbers tweaks we could expect from any half-baked chapter release. What made this year different was the promise. These were things that matter a lot to players and they were treated with the utmost disrespect and arms thrown in the air "well what can we do?" mentality we've come to expect from BHVR over the last decade. That attitude is incredibly damaging not only to the game but to their relationship with their audience. It is highly immature, insensitive, and honestly cruel. Players should feel jaded because that's the natural reaction to this degree of dishonesty.
All my opinion, of course.
Can I ask, sincerely, what are you referring to with the idea that BHVR constantly can features shown on PTBs?
The only two examples of that happening I can remember off the top of my head are the Twins rework and the current PTB situation that sparked the conversation. I'm asking you because you're the latest person I've seen say it, but I've seen others also make out like this is not only a pattern, but a constant pattern that happens all the time.
So… what other examples are you thinking of?
-
Honestly, if we're just looking for a good movie and we don't mind so much about it being The Dead By Daylight Movie, I'd probably pick All-Kill in general.
Psychological thriller about Trickster's descent into mania and Yun-Jin's slow creeping suspicion mixed with the guilt of not saying anything, I think that'd make for a damn good movie.
-
I've been thinking about my answers because I play both roles, and I think having to narrow everything down to just one suggestion is a fun challenge. I'm gonna cheat a little because some of these things can't be done with one single change, but they are one thing to address in each case.
For survivor, it's fairly easy.
The buff I'd suggest is the ability to see your teammate's perks while you're actively playing, using the match details screen. Excellent info for decision making in solo queue that doesn't require your teammates to all be on the same wavelength like a ping system, which would be very nice to see.
I think something like this is coming down the line? BHVR mentioned something about it being in the lobby but that would be a terrible idea.The nerf I'd suggest is very simple, rework toolboxes to no longer give repair speed. I don't know what exactly it should be replaced by, but toolboxes are the single, sole, exclusive problem with gen speed in the entire game right now- with a really minor exception for maybe One-Two-Three-Four and Bardic Inspiration being potentially as busted in SWF, but I'm not sure about that one.
Genrushing as a problem disappears overnight with this change.For killer, I was really unsure about the buff in particular, because buffing just one killer seems like a wasted opportunity but it's difficult to think of good changes for the whole cast that won't unfairly help the top tiers.
The nerf is simple though: Tunnelling. Through some mechanism, address the balance issue at the core of tunnelling so leveraging a much easier chase to get someone out of the match early is no longer a thing. Self explanatory.
The buff, as I said, was difficult, because you can't just flat buff the killer role without making the top tiers even better. What I settled on instead is a good accessibility/QoL feature: Some way of getting visual indication for the sound of generators being actively repaired would be awesome for the hard-of-hearing among us, and frankly even I with only kinda bad hearing would benefit too.
Footsteps would be ideal too but that might be a bit more difficult to implement fairly, I think. -
I feel this might be a bit of a stretch.
For starters, it's far more likely that a distracted killer would accidentally tunnel someone while trying not to without visible hook counts. There's been quite a few comments over the years about how visible hook counts don't actually mean anything regarding tunnelling but they would be (and now are) a nice quality of life thing for people trying to spread out their hook actions.
If you want to tunnel, you know which survivor you're attacking, it's the one who was just unhooked. If you're not actively trying to tunnel you might forget which of the two Ace players with different cosmetics was the one you hooked last, to give one example.As for the others, the medkit addons were their own issue independent of the whole anti-tunnel thing (same way that the Myers rework went through for the previous PTB despite the rest of it being delayed), so that's not super relevant, and OTR was only nerfed in its capacity as an aggressive bodyblocking tool, not an anti-tunnel tool.
Trying to swing revising the pallet density update as a bad thing is very silly, too, pretty much everyone agrees that went too far in the wrong areas. It's also not a revert, it's an adjustment, maps should still have better pallet density than before based on how BHVR spoke about it.
Then again, that was the goal before and it was the implementation that messed up, so we'll see how it shakes out. -
To be fair, the whole health/QoL initiative covers more than just this one patch. The delays were to make time for the whole initiative, as I understand, and most of that's been trucking along.
Not that I necessarily agree with every choice made, but they are using the time they bought by delaying chapters.
-
It isn't worthless but it's not the right call, either.
The extra five seconds of Haste is honestly slightly more useful for actually countering tunnelling than the Endurance, in my opinion, it lingers for longer should the killer instantly smack you and it results in a bit more distance even if they don't, so the likelihood of reaching a tile is higher.
I kinda wish they'd only extend the duration of Haste and not Endurance, then use that as a base to make it longer. Fifteen seconds of both Haste and Endurance makes bodyblocking slightly better, but ten seconds of Endurance and twenty seconds of Haste doesn't, for example.
-
@ArcT said:
Not basically is dead. It IS dead. Completely gone. All those excuses that it was just being delayed to another PTB? In the wind.
But the nerfs to anti-tunnel and anti-slug perks remain.
So tunnelling and slugging is stronger than where they started.
Just goddamned fantastic work here. Mission accomplished.
They're not changing any of the perks from this PTB, are you referring to other perk nerfs? All the per changes from this PTB aren't going live except Breakdown (temporarily) and Wicked (but killswitched), and neither of those are anti-tunnel or anti-slug.
(Also the comments about delays weren't excuses, that's what happened. The changes were delayed from the first PTB to the second PTB, THEN they were scrapped.)
-
@ReverseVelocity said:
This wouldn't really achieve anything, since you could just leave slightly earlier or heal tech for a couple of seconds.
It'd also probably have some effect on those close escapes where you have to crawl a little bit.
Survivors leaving earlier is basically the point.
Though like I said, it's not important. I just find cocky survivors teabagging until you hit them out really annoying.
-
@PetTheDoggo said:
I mainly fail to understand who thought it's good idea to combine so many changes at once.
- pallet density
- anti-tunneling
- anti-slugging
- anti-camping
- killer incentives
Like if they just focused on anti-tunneling / killer incentives and see how it will affect the balance, it might work. But trying to do everything at once simply could not end well. They are simply not capable of such big changes.
They should have just use that time for more bug fixes…
The post is more about what we can learn regarding realistic anti tunnel specifically, not what the major problem with the PTB was.
Though, honestly, I don't think that the number of changes was necessarily a problem, nothing wrong with an ambitious patch.
-
I think they're pretty close to each other overall, so it's an interesting comparison.
I do agree that Wesker is more consistent than Plague in that there's lower risk, but I do also think it's possible to reliably get Plague to outperform him, so I would give Plague the win for strength but it is quite close. Houndmaster… it's hard to rate her because she barely functions, but I am a believer, I think she's a top tier hidden beneath the bugs.
Fun to play for me would be Houndmaster if she worked, but I do find her bugs very frustrating so of the three probably Plague- I don't play any of these killers much but I've never been a fan of the dash gameplay.
They're all pretty solid killers minus bugginess, though. Definitely in the upper tiers.
-
I could see Breakdown sticking around, but I do think its numbers needed to be tuned a bit.
I'd have done one of two things: Either it only works when others heal you, or it still works when healing yourself but the boost is lowered to 50% instead of 100%.
The second one especially would put it in a nice position between a lot of other tools that do similar jobs, for some good balance between them.
-
Wanting to collect data on the Anti-Haemorrhagic Syringe I understand, I don't personally like the design but if they've got their reasons for wanting it then monitoring it on live servers makes sense.
I'm genuinely taken aback they want to monitor the Styptic Agent, though. Its current design doesn't have a use case that isn't outclassed by a brown charge addon, what exactly is there to monitor?
It's not the only disappointing part of the stream for me but it is the one I struggle to understand. Everything else makes sense even if I don't personally like it.
-
I don't know about predictions but I do know what I hope to see.
I imagine they will adjust Wicked and Babysitter to not be busted, but I also hope Breakdown gets a look too, it's a bit too good for its use cases. Ideally Furtive gets a small buff and Beast of Prey only gets a small nerf, too.
Also hoping the Styptic Agent gets some attention too, it's kinda worthless on the PTB.Then for killer: Bloodlust after a fresh hook increased to at least Bloodlust 2, though ideally it'd be Bloodlust 3. Then, a note to change certain killer power interactions in a future patch, and hopefully a note to introduce more bonuses later too.
Then for survivor: Haste and Elusive unchanged, but Endurance lowered to a much shorter timer. Ideally they'd also make the Haste a higher percentage too, but it works just keeping it as it is too.
Everything else I don't have super intense opinions on.
-
@TheMonsterManor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029915#Comment_4029915
The play 20 matches thing they ripped out of Overwatch's own horrible penalty system
Anything in particular about that you find objectionable…?
-
@TheMonsterManor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029912#Comment_4029912
And the old system wasn't? It already took away a whole grade and you had to wait a full day to reset the penalties.
Well, if they're both good at it, there's not really much of a reason to care which one we keep.
What don't you like about the new system?
-
May I ask your reasoning?
From my perspective this new system seems better at deterring people from DCing a lot.
-
@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029627#Comment_4029627
So Blight has been touched for 4 years which is honestly ridiculous being S-Tier for that long
He did have addons changed in that time period, which was a nice change and sorely needed, but his basekit hasn't been nerfed in that long.
The wiki lists increasing his terror radius as a nerf, but that has upsides and downsides so I wouldn't count it.
-
It's inconsistent, but the trend seems to be that killers who have particularly good powers for making range less safe/more threatening for the survivors have the slower walking speed.
Hag can close the distance very quickly by teleporting, Deathslinger can reel you in closer to him, Huntress can hit you with a hatchet without needing to be close at all, Springtrap with his axe is slower but without his axe he's faster, Spirit can speed herself up tremendously and attack immediately on exiting, etc.
It's still inconsistent though. They made Trickster 4.6 despite that being a weird choice, Hillbilly and Blight are still 4.6 when they should probably be 4.4, etc. When they choose to invoke the 4.4 movement speed seems to be up to a judgement call when balancing a killer more than having a hard and fast rule associated.
-
Broadly I don't think it's reasonable to suggest a giant shotgun sweep of heavy nerfs to survivor when the killer's big heat to answer survivor tools is still fully intact. I could see some of these being reasonable with some heavy nerfs on the killer end too, but that's a tenuous road to go down, it can get unfun very quickly.
A lot of what you're suggesting be nerfed would make the thing in question worthless, and it seems like you want to remove saves from the game altogether? I'm not sure I understand why, I'd certainly understand weakening the strongest tools for saving someone from the killer's grasp but it's an important part of the game in general.
As an aside, what do you mean when you say "time to self heal from 24 seconds to 32 seconds"? The only source of self healing that takes 24 seconds is medkits and you want to remove that from them, so there just wouldn't be a self heal that takes that much time. There's only one healing action, it's just that when you perform it on yourself, all the tools that let you do it have a speed penalty.
-
@CrossTheSholf said:
Back to this i see
To be fair, not like it's stopped being a problem since the last time it was a hot topic, lol.
Seeing this thread and a few others pop up had me go check the wiki, and the last time Blight got a direct nerf to his power (exempting addon changes, though those were quite good) was in 2021.
-
@Leon_van_Straken said:
The big problem is… BHVR seems to have no clue what "skilled" is. Something in my brain wants me to compare DbD to an hockey match but not this time.
Tell me of these examples what is the most skilled player.
Survivor Side:
Survivor 1: Loops Killer for 1 gen per hook stage. (3 gens pop when he dies), Goes for unhooks and pick ups. 40%escape rate.
Survivor 2: Typical Sable main, chases never going long. Maybe 20 seconds, but pulls the Killer far away from the Gens which are made. First to run to unhooks and pick ups, because full healing build. 35% escape rate.
Survivor 3: Cracked Ace, loops Killer for 3-5 gens everygame if he gets chased, completly ignores teammates on hook or on the ground. leaves when gates are open. 50% escape rate.
Survivor 4: does no gens at all. medicore in chases, but cracked at saves, 2-4 flashlight saves per game, goes always for the unhook in endgame but dies alot for this., 25% escape rate.
Survivor 5: Hiding most of the match, plays perks like sole Survivor and Wake up, waiting for others to die and opens gate and leaves. 50% escape rate.
Killer Side:
Killer 1: Sweaty Nurse, goes for 4 Slug at 5 gens, Kill rate 70%
Killer 2: Cracked Billy who tries to curve every single loop but loses chases for this which could be finished by M1 Kill rate 45%
Killer 3: Afk Myers standing still whole game. Waits for cocky Survivors in end game with noed and bloodwarden, kill rate 50%
Killer 4: Friendly but cracked Huntress, hits every impossible shot, goes for 8 hooks but lets all survivors escape. kill rate 20%
Killer 5: Sweaty Trapper, goes for 4 Slug at 5 gens, Kill rate 70%
And now tell me with a straight face. "This is easy to rank and to make a programm to find fair matches"
I don't know that your examples here really prove much, definitely on the killer end. Tackling that one first, the question that needs to be asked is "how should a matchmaker treat these players", and we've got some fairly clear answers for most of them.
Killers one and five, the sweaty Nurse and the sweaty Trapper, are trying very hard to win with multiple shortcuts. A matchmaker must assume reasonable balance, so it must assume those shortcuts get easier to deal with higher up the skill curve, so those players should climb until they face proper resistance for their tactics. This is what should happen with the current system (setting aside situations where the matching portion hiccups, anyway), so no issues there.
Killer two, our cracked Billy, clearly wants to practice their power more than they want to outright win, and their results reflect that. A player like that should be able to maintain a reasonably stable position in the matchmaker but they are ultimately getting subpar results, so a slow decline until they actually improve or level out would be appropriate. Again, that's what should happen here.
Killer three, the memeing Myers, has basically the same argument to be made, save for that they care about memeing around more than winning. Their results reflect a stable position, so they'll just keep trucking on. Annoying for people who face it sometimes, sure, but that'd be the case wherever in the matchmaker they land.
Killer four is the biggest potential outlier, but at a certain point, you have to accept that players who lose on purpose will get to lower their matchmaking level. Trying to stop this would be a fool's errand, even if a few reasonable safeguards could be put in place, hypothetically.
At least our example here is someone who lets the players go, so not too disruptive to the ecosystem, so to speak.For survivor, sure, it's a bit messier… but they're all engaging with a clear playstyle that gives them clear results. Sable will drop until they can improve in chase, and survivor 4 will continue to drop because they're just not really contributing much, but that's mostly appropriate- the thing being measured is how consistently they can win the game and therefore what kind of resistance they'd put up to the opponent, and none of these examples really show someone who's slipping through the cracks in either direction.
Sure, the last example is an annoying player, but that's not a matchmaker problem- in this example they aren't climbing, they're just sitting at a stable position.I could see survivor 4 maybe being an outlier, but at a certain point you should be expected to engage with the basic objective progression and the basic gameplay loop before being considered skilled even if we move to only measuring performance in one game, right?
-
@fussy said:
I swear cooldown for breaking pallet is stupidest thing we have ever had in this game. I have 0 idea why killer should be punished for doing basic part of gameplay loop and I hate the fact that devs had no idea how to balance Kaneki created such precedent. I hope we never ever see this "cooldown for breaking" feature on any killer.
Also I don't get why we act like Blight is the only killer who can dash at you after pallet breaking. Wesker? No complains. Chucky? Vecna? Dracula? Singularity? Naaah. Spirit even has addon for power recharge for pallet break, but I don't see complains either. Blight? Ah yeah, it's completely different.
If you want to nerf Blight, make him 4.4 is fair. If you want to make him much weaker, destroy his speed addons, because basekit Blight is nowhere near S tier and speed is the only thing helps him to be viable in most loops.
But, once again, if you want to nerf S tiers, let's do something with S+ tier first – swf.
I think the cooldown for breaking a pallet does actually make sense, even accepting that Kaneki is pretty badly designed in general- the whole point of the pallet break animation is that it's meant to provide the survivor distance, and certain killers are capable of circumventing that.
The most noteworthy of those is Blight and pre-nerf Kaneki, but the conversation by no means stops there.Really though, there's a pretty reasonable cause for only Blight getting these complaints, and it's that he's orders of magnitude better at it than any other killer you listed. They all have more restrictions, with the possible exception of Dracula's wolf form… and Drac's another S tier killer, so that tracks.
-
This is a pretty damn good idea, I like it. I especially like the idea of it slowing down while running, you'd get survivors doing the same thing they'd do to walk off Exhaustion - purposefully not make distance and try to maximise tiles.
The only thing I'd add is inflicting Broken on survivors who use the syringe, not for any balance reasons but to be a tell for the syringe being used. That way the killer knows what's up and can adjust their play accordingly, where possible.
-
@KerJuice said:
Glad you asked: remove the “hockey” element from DBD. Reward the killer for hooks by increasing their BP and Rank. Add more perks like Make Your Choice and Friends Til the End.
Just to check- when you say "Rank", are you referring to the emblem/grade system?
-
@Mr_K said:
Anti-Hemorrhagic Syringe:
Removed the heal over time effect.
Removes Exhaustion on use. (Rework)
Consumes the med-kit on Secondary Action use.
How three times? I'm only seeing two instances. Initial run to trigger SB. Pop the syringe for another SB. Where's the third?
My guess is OP is referring to the potential synergy with Blood Rush, which would hypothetically allow for a survivor to pop three Sprint Bursts if all the requirements are met.
As a personal editorial, I would say any killer that continues to try and tunnel someone past the second Sprint Burst kinda deserves to get hit by the third, so I wouldn't say that is an issue in particular.