jesterkind
jesterkind
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Won't be a problem for too long, at least.
Do we know the exact date for when the map leaves? I know it's this month at least.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042449#Comment_4042449
Sure, with the strictest reading of passive, it would be only Lethal Pursuer, but the others' triggers are baked into the normal game loop. It's not like invocations, where they require you to go out of your way to enable them. Most of them occur automatically in the process of the killer going about their gameplay without any deviation.
If the activation requirement is doing something you were going to do anyway, that's not really an activation requirement in any relevant sense.
If you like, I don't mind that reasoning.
This does unavoidably mean Distortion is also still passive now, since being chased is a regular part of gameplay that doesn't require any deviation.
That is part of why Distortion's current design is fine, because it's now in line with how a lot of activation triggers work; it's something you do have to do, but that something is part of regular gameplay. It isn't passive (in my opinion), but it's accessible. -
@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042449#Comment_4042449
Weave Attunement is pretty passive, too, and still pretty busted even in its current state.
Sort of? There are definitely uses of it that could be considered passive, but I would personally argue the passive uses are the weaker ones, you kinda have to go out of your way to make Weave Attunement busted with something like the Franklin's synergy.
Still, it's a problem, and I don't think it's well designed at all in part because of how it at least can be pretty passive.For posterity, problematic aura reading also includes Nowhere To Hide. Both these perks have meaningful triggers the killer has to engage with beyond equipping the perk, but both are also very accessible, very annoying, and warrant changes.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042447#Comment_4042447
The issue was that it was a completely passive perfect counter to an entire class of tools on the opponent's side, and that's just not great game design.
The tools in question being insanely passive perfect counters to an entire playstyle, mind you.
I mean. No.
There's no way of arguing even the overtuned aura reading tools in the game at any stage were passive at all, let alone insanely passive.
I think the only passive aura reading in the game right now is Lethal Pursuer, and coincidentally that's the one Distortion hard counters. Every other aura reading tool in the game has a trigger.
You could maybe make the argument for something like Undying being passive, but I'd like to do you the courtesy of assuming that isn't what you're saying here. Any relevant aura tool has both a trigger and a timer, often having a distance requirement as well.If you want a killer tool that actually represents the same idea and is problematic for the same reasons as old Distortion, it's Lightborn.
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@Terror_Misu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042349#Comment_4042349
Distortion isn't dead, the perk still functions as advertised it just has different conditions to it.
It's dead for a lot of players. It's dead for what it did vs what it does now. It's dead because the condition for getting tokens is literally against the reason to bring it in the first place. I know one of the jesters here on the forums is a highly positive advocate for current distortion being just fine. I disagree completely, as its not doing what it needs to do. There are other perks that simply do it better now. So I disagree, distortion is dead to most of the player base.
You can advocate for numbers changes on it's current iteration whether it's more stacks or less time spent being chased to get those stacks back, the fundamental problem with old distortion was that it was a very passive perk with very passive conditions to it (just being in the killer's terror radius and not getting chased.) and because of that, it promoted very passive game play for the survivor using it.
And uh.. why is this a 'fundamental problem'? Ill need you to define this as it makes absolutely no sense here to me. Passive play style? Stealth would be the term, and when you call it 'passive play style', you're just trying to dump a negative connotation to the term. It's stealth. People can abuse this of course, but that goes for anything in the game. So if we're nerfing things that can be abused, what kind of game is left? How was Distortion causing dbd to be unplayable that it needed to be gutted? Still waiting on this from anyone.
Rats? Do you mean rat play styles? Distortion had nothing to do with it, its being done even better these days (again, without distortion), and once again, a group of players lied in the echo chamber and bhvr paid attention. IT was said Distortion getting nerf'd would fix problems. It didn't. The other problems got worse as there was basically no aura defense anymore. Now tunneling is the big thing to complain about. Was tunneling as big a problem pre Dist nerf? I cant recall but I'd wager there's a correlation, even if minor.
@Firellius is on the mark with conspicous actions being the right call. It still encourages engagement as you claimed for your reasoning. It still allows the players to play stealth as they should be allowed. This literally fixes everything for everyone. But would you accept it? Will you find some mundane reason why 'that won't work.'? Genuinely wanting discussion on this!
There were definitely correct ways to use old distortion as you highlighted but people's problem with it was for every person who used it correctly there were way more using it to just be passive.No, yet another echo chamber line. Please tell me where any of this information you just decided to type came from? Forum people? Personal experience? Its all Maurice crap. Again, this is the rat style you're referring to. It wasn't a pandemic, it wasn't out of control, in fact it was rare as hell across the board. It happens a lot more in new/low mmr as new players are… well, scared and terrified. That goes away after a few days of playing, but while its happening, its the peak dbd experience imo, and it only lasts a few days :(
I think a good compromise for the perk is either we give it an extra stack or reduce the time spent being chased down to 15-20 seconds to get a stack back. Once again I am not advocating for killing the perk, I just want it to promote more engaging game play.
I appreciate you attempting a fix. Its more than a lot of others here. But I'd like to hear your thoughts on @Firellius suggestion. The requirement of being in chase needs to go. The perk is literally made to NOT be in chase. Another BHVR single cell idea.
And compromise? This is a survivor perk. What do you mean 'compromise'? We want to stop you from seeing our aura. You don't want that. The perk is not OP, only drowned because, again, 'rat playstyle'.
I'm not the person you're discussing this with overall, of course, but I do have something to say about the idea about the idea of Distortion charging on Conspicuous Actions instead of chases.
My issue with this suggestion is that I don't think there's a satisfying middle ground for anyone there. Tokens charging via doing generators means each token has to take a pretty long time to grant, otherwise we run the risk of being right back where we started with Distortion being a perk that just flat turns off aura reading permanently.
The issue with old Distortion in my opinion wasn't rat playstyles, I don't even think that's really the reason BHVR nerfed it. The issue was that it was a completely passive perfect counter to an entire class of tools on the opponent's side, and that's just not great game design.It wasn't meant to be as perfect as it was, that's why it had the token/recharge system to begin with, but the token system was so lenient and the recharge trigger so passive that it functionally did just disable aura reading completely.
Let's take a step back and ask a question. What is Distortion actually meant to do? My answer is that it fundamentally does two things: It provides some protection against aura reading, and it provides some information about what aura reading the killer brought, being currently the only aura blocker that does the second part.
Aura blocking (and indeed any stealth effect) should never be considered a way to avoid the killer for the entire match, just delay chases or perform specific actions safely, so I don't really see the issue with Distortion activating from chases. You should expect to be chased in an average match, so you will get tokens back, and Distortion will delay the first chase to allow you breathing room and the ability to position, as well as giving you information about what the killer's running.
Sure, you could balance the perk around gaining tokens from generators, but I don't think that regeneration speed would be particularly satisfying for survivors. I think the perk's in a better spot right now.That's not to say I wouldn't buff Distortion, though. I've maintained for a while it'd be fair to give it both tokens at the start, so you've got a bit extra breathing room if the killer brings Lethal Pursuer.
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DBD's a pretty great game for me insofar as there's a huge amount of variety to play around with, which is something I like quite a bit.
My main driver of interest with DBD, and the thing I'm doing the most when I boot the game up, is buildcrafting and finding synergies. The loadout presets have been great for me, I adore having multiple different cohesive builds to swap between and try out!
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@cogsturning said:
I wouldn't use the first option. I can power through a Pain Res hit with Deja Vu and Resi. That just doesn't interest me at all. The satisfaction I get from toolboxes is watching the gen progress speed up.
The second could work. I do agree very much there should be a hard distinction between sabo and repair toolboxes. I'd like to see that reflect in their visuals as well. Ngl, as a stacked Commodius toolbox user, if I'm playing killer and I see a lobby of 4 toolbox users, I'm dodging. But if I couod see they were all sabo-only boxes, I wouldn't.
The distinction between the kind of toolboxes is definitely a major reason I've been considering the latter option recently. I'm typically of the opinion that just lowering repair speed as a nerf wouldn't be satisfying for anyone when it comes to toolboxes, but offsetting it with extra charges opens up some interesting synergies without getting too out of hand I think.
Appreciate the insight though, I'm very curious where people would land on this comparison!
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042330#Comment_4042330
The problem isn't synergy. The problem is there is way too much of a performance difference between a toolbox being used by itself, and a toolbox being used in with addons and perks.
Right, but the problem with that difference is that the higher level of performance is a huge issue and the lower end of performance is barely worth bringing.
So, I'm trying to contrast a common community suggestion - the shield instead of repair speed - with something I've been contemplating, which is balancing a lower repair speed number, to see which people might prefer.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042324#Comment_4042324
2) Then I'll rephrase my comment to say that "the problem with toolboxes is they synergize way too much with addons and perks"
The thing I'm interested in exploring is whether this synergy would be problematic, though.
The current issue is unambiguously that generators get completed too quickly when toolboxes are used, especially in conjunction with other repair speed options.
If what you get is the exact same amount of protection but slightly quicker… is that a problem on the same level? Synergies existing isn't an issue, after all, it's only when you get too much value from them that it's a problem.
Again, this isn't a suggestion, I'm interested in exploring this topic. I have no strong opinions yet.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042308#Comment_4042308
- You still want the increased skill check chance to exist, which is what scales too much with Hyperfocus
- Replacing the gen speed with gen shields would just mean the gen shields would scale too much when stacked, which doesn't solve the "things can stack too much" problem
- A lot of survivors will just hate the shield idea, because if they stack shield stuff, and the killer ends up having 0 slowdown perks, they might feel like their build is "wasted".
- If gen shield stuff gets more popular, it might just encourage killers to bring gen blocking perks instead of gen regression perks, which is also going to feel bad for the survivors that stack gen shield stuff.
Sure, in order:
1: Completely separately to this set of suggestions, I think Hyperfocus shouldn't work with toolboxes. It was outside the scope of this post to mention that, though.
2: Would they? If it's charge-based and not time-based then you'd get the exact same amount of gen shield, you'd just apply it faster. That's not even stacking at that point, it's just synergy.
3: I made this post to poll survivor opinions alongside killer opinions, so if that's the case I'm hoping to hear about it.
4: Ditto the above for this.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042305#Comment_4042305
Neither, because neither addresses the issue where toolboxes scale too much with stacking.
I mean, wouldn't that be the first one?
You can't stack toolbox speed with other speeds if toolboxes don't have repair speed on them.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
Toolboxes need to be reworked to bridge the gap between a toolbox by itself, and a toolbox stacked with perks and addons.
Because a regular toolbox by itself is fine. But a Commodious Toolbox, stacked with extra charges and Hyperfocus, is not fine.
- All toolboxes should be 16 or 18 charges, because 32 charge toolboxes stack too well with perks.
- Toolboxes should not give extra skill check percentages if the survivor has a perk like Hyperfocus that scales off skill checks.
- The +charge addons should be nerfed.
We've had reworks for medkits, maps, and keys… so the game is long overdue for reworks to toolboxes.
Of the two suggested, though, which would you prefer?
It's those two I'm gauging interest in, rather than other options.
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I've noticed a few matches where one survivor spawned apart from the other three, but I've thankfully not noticed any matches where they all spawned fully spread out.
Hopefully it's a momentary hiccup that gets fixed fairly quickly. It seemed to be working pretty well until quite recently.
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@TheGoon224 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041719#Comment_4041719
It was a genuine question. I just didn’t know how else to word it. Because obviously, despite there being a lot of bad, there was also just as much good. Hell this year gave me a new main survivor, how could I hate it?
My mistake, I misinterpreted your intent.
It is easy to forget the good stuff that happened, I had to go back through the patch notes to remind myself for the back half of that list.
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The Key item rework, the gamma slider, the customisable scratch marks colours, auto bloodweb spending, hook suicide prevention, survivor bloodpoint gain increase, and you could count the Freddy rework if you like that one, dealer's choice there.
Less gameplay related, but the original survivors this year were awesome. Vee and Orela are both really cool, both as characters and as representation, so there's that.
You could also count some perks, new and buffed, and killer releases if you like them, which is personal taste. Personally I think Springtrap's pretty cool but the last killer that really excited me was Houndmaster at the tail end of 2024, so they're not on my list.
I get what you're going for here, but it is important to give credit where it's due as well. We don't gain anything from pretending nothing good happened last year, and we gain a lot more from acknowledging what the specific disappointments were.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041653#Comment_4041653
killers dont have basekit aura read for a start so killers shouldnt be able to know where survivors are. killers can guess but there is no way of knowing where they are…head to a wrong gen and thats time wasted. Thats not skill thats luck. head to a gen thats been worked on and people pre run….time wasted, especially when swf has comms that tell the team what direction the killer is heading to. as a stealth survivor i know how easy it is to work gens and disappear so the killer has no idea where i am. Even if the killer knew where the survivors are, they could be on the other side of the map doing a gen, its situational but in many situations its better time management to not waste time slowly walking to the other side of the map to encounter a pro looper near the a strong loop when the weak link is already hooked and in a weak loop area. its smart play that could have been avoided by the survivor heading to a strong loop location or being harder to catch. being able to reliably tunnel someone out shows smart gameplay, using the brain to work out if its worth tunneling that survivor or try a different target, knowing if its worth tunneling someone when they are at a strong loop location.
you say tunneling stunts growth yet you expect the killer to basically not target the weak looper and go for someone else when its the weak looper that could do with the practice in chases to improve. That stunts growth of the survivor, they wont learn to loop better because after being caught once the killer would need to target someone else which could be much stronger in chase.
There are ways of knowing where survivors are.
Crows, scratch marks, loud noise notifications, and sheer line of sight are all ways of knowing where survivors are, and then there are ways of minimising guesswork like going to places where survivors were shown to be while you were in chase.
Yes, pre-running is a thing, but it only lessens the value of spreading pressure, it doesn't remove it.I'm not sure where the binary of strong versus weak looper came from here though, genuinely. Why assume the survivor on the hook is the weak link and that all the other survivors are strong loopers…?
It's just as likely that everyone in the match is roughly equivalent when it comes to looping, and even more likely that only one survivor is actually a really strong looper and the rest are just decent.
Still, fact of the matter is, for most killers in the game strong loopers are only actually scary if they're also in strong parts of the map. All the looping skill in the world doesn't matter in a deadzone, and even strong loopers can only get so much out of weak tiles. If you avoid chasing anyone who looks like they're particularly good at looping you're definitely never going to improve, tunnelling or no tunnelling.
As for the survivors, you don't get much meaningful practice from being tunnelled since the chase starts stacked against you. Not that I'm particularly concerned with their skill development in this context, I'm speaking from the killer perspective here. -
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041643#Comment_4041643
Thats exactly what i mean, hooking someone then going after someone else can mean wasting valuable time traversing the map looking for the next player, or wasting valuable time going for a pro looper when the weak link is free to crank out gens like theres no tomorrow. This time waste isnt a big deal to high mobility killers but its crucial for low tier low mobility killers. you just have to look at the kill rates to see things are the way the devs aimed for 40/60 balance and that is with tunneling. its pretty clear if it was nerfed to the point its no longer that effective kill rates would highly likely drop because so many rely on it to be able to compete. The fact a killer can tunnel the 1 weak link shows a smart way to way to play which can also be detrimental to the killer if they tunnel the wrong player. That is balanced and fair. it has its advantages and disadvantages. the only ones that seem to have an issue with tunneling are the weak links but instead of improving and changing how they play to counter this common killer tactic they push for nerfs. I say this as a survivor, in my matches im often the stronger player which means the killer abandons the chase before they can tunnel me out.
The thing about that is that you shouldn't be wasting any time looking for another survivor. You should already know where another survivor is and be going straight to them.
Now, I'm not saying everyone should be at the ultra pro level where you can track all the survivors reliably just from your own game sense, that's unreasonable. If you're not at that level, a good chunk of your info about where to go should come from either perks or just going to wherever the last survivor you saw is on top of the game sense that you do have - and no shade, that's where I'm at too.
What you're describing here isn't really an inherent problem with trying to spread hooks, it's just what you hone as you get better at killer. You get better at knowing where to go, you get better at not taking the wrong chases or letting chases go on for too long, you get better at outplaying survivors, and so on.It's not an unavoidable time waste that lower tier killers just can't afford. It's part of the game's skill expression and skill curve. Reliably being able to tunnel someone out just stunts your growth as a player in this regard.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041638#Comment_4041638
slugging someone to chase after another person is no spreading hooks. thats mass slugging and winning via getting 4 hooks. thats not the same as spreading hooks to get 12 hooks for 4k. in an ideal world yes tunneling wouldnt be a thing and killers of all tiers would be able to win by hooking each person at least twice each. But its a dream world and not practical. mainly because low tier killers with low mobility have it worse than S tiers. The devs have built the game around speed. look at ghoul and krasue. high mobility killers to compete with the gen speeds.The only ways this issue would be resolved is:
- nerf tunneling, camping and slugging so they are less effective AND nerf gen speeds at the same time to allow low mobility killers time to spread hooks. (No survivor wants that)
- nerf tunneling, camping and slugging so they are less effective then buff individual killers across the full roster that may be struggling to keep up without these tactics so they dont further buff S tiers. (the amount of time it would take to buff each killer to compensate would take years, look how long it takes the devs to do reworks and change just 1 killer like skull merchant). During this time killers would stop playing.
These are the only 2 options i could see working and both will never work. Therefore it is best to assume tunneling, slugging, camping, will always be the way it is and to learn to counter it because if people are waiting for changes they will be disappointed and have a very long wait. This would never have been a major issue if it wasnt for the high mobility S tier killers like blight. They could have done a blanket buff for all killers when they nerf tunneling but that cant happen anymore.
I think part of the issue may be that you're misunderstanding what spreading hooks actually means. It isn't specifically hooking every person twice for a perfect twelve hook game, it's just getting a hook and then going out to get another hook on another survivor, then repeating. That's all spreading hooks entails.
Every killer is capable of getting good results from a variety of playstyles + tactics by making sure not to repeatedly target the same survivor.
Obviously it is fairly difficult for most killers to arbitrarily two-hook everyone in a perfect cycle before anyone dies, but that isn't what basically anyone means when they talk about spreading hooks.
So, what needs to happen is just that tunnelling and slugging have their highest values brought in line with what you can get by spreading hooks, because they're the unbalanced thing. Slugging less so, that only needs some light reigning in (honestly the 9.3.0 PTB was basically perfect, I don't think they needed to scrap that), and tunnelling being the thing that needs more robust changes.
Then those things would be options (sans maybe tunnelling) but the value you'd get from them would be proportional to the effort you put in. -
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041635#Comment_4041635
not every playstyle is spreading hooks. certain killers for example dont require spreading hooks. onryo, pig for example. camping and protecting the one on hook is not tunneling or spreading hooks, its camping making sure people dont succeed in freeing them like bubba. slugging been used as a tactic that is not spreading hooks. The bread and butter of the game is to kill. how the killer gets the kills can differ depending on killer and play style. Thats what makes the game worth playing, the variety of ways people can play. so like i said, remove all 3 tactics or nerf them so they are not effective and the killer will only be able to spread hooks unless they go killers that dont need to. personally i think it would shift meta further to S tiers if all 3 tactics were nerfed to the ground and reduce the variety of killers seen in matches even further.
Like I said, the fair and balanced versions of camping and slugging involve spreading hooks.
Forcing someone through hook states without letting the survivor team rescue is not one of the fair or balanced contexts for camping, and it's been nerfed accordingly. Still doable, but an aware team can counter it.
Compare that to proxy camping to initiate a chase with someone who comes for the save, to force them a little further out of position at the start of the chase + cut down on potential lost time searching for someone. That still involves spreading hooks, and it's also the far more reasonable version of camping.Same for slugging. Bleeding everyone out isn't fair or balanced and also isn't even fun, but leaving one person on the ground so you can go chase someone else still ultimately involves spreading hooks.
My larger point, though, is more important. Even if you include all three as alternatives to spreading hooks… the sheer amount of options, tactics, and playstyles that do involves spreading hooks massively outnumbers them because spreading hooks is still the basic interaction of killer gameplay.
All stealth oriented playstyles, hit and run, totem defence, resource denial, loop zoning, M1 fundamental looping, and the million different perk builds you can lean into, all of these things involve spreading hooks because that is fundamentally just kind of the cornerstone of skilful killer play.
"Only able to spread hooks" is tantamount to "only able to play the game". It implies only that one (or three, if we accept the other two examples) option has been taken away, not that you're being railroaded into taking only one specific option.The game has so much more depth and nuance than tunnelling someone out or camping them through hook stages.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4041626#Comment_4041626
so instead of potentially being forced into tunneling, you expect 3 tactics to be nerfed? would that not force people into 1 play style of spread hooks? currently people have a choice, they can tunnel, slug, camp, spread hooks if they choose to. remove 3 of those tactics and killers are only left with 1 thing to do. sounds pretty linear and 1 dimensional to me. spread hooks, if you cant do that….tough.
Why would killer mains be ok adapting to the changes when survivor mains refuse to adapt to tunneling? its not like tunneling has no downsides or counters. there even perks designed to counter it. But instead of adapting and learning to counter it they complain. its not surprising killers then took the same approach.
I can't speak for OP or the person you're responding to, but two things did leap out at me about your post here.
The first is that the notion of nerfing slugging, tunnelling, and camping forcing players to not do them is sort of assuming a very specific kind of nerf that I don't think most people are even necessarily advocating for in all cases.
Sure, you'll find plenty of people who want tunnelling removed in particular, but take slugging as a counter-example here- slugging has an actually legitimate place within the game, it has contexts that are already well balanced and fair. Most people who advocate for anti-slugging changes are more concerned with reigning in its most extreme versions, like bleeding everyone out or slugging absolutely everyone before you even start hooking.Hypothetically, in those cases, it would be the case both that slugging gets nerfed to be more fair, but that players still get to choose to slug if it seems like the best call. This isn't even that much of a hypothetical, frankly- that's what we saw attempted on the 9.2 and 9.3 PTBs, even if the implementation was slightly lacking.
The second thing to mention is a bit of a misconception a lot of people have, which is that "spread hooks" is not one playstyle. It's the basic bread and butter that will be a part of literally every single playstyle that isn't specifically tunnelling, including the more fair and balanced versions of slugging and camping, which would be used to get into a more favourable chase to spread the hook states around.
Any playstyle or tactic that you'd care to bring into the trial is going to involve spreading hooks unless it's specifically the one single tactic that is defined by avoiding spreading hooks where possible. It's not actually all that limiting to only take away tunnelling in particular, you'd still have the entire rest of the game available.
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@drag27 said:
you got basekit BT and perks like DS, DH. you guys need to accept the fact that they are not going to delete tunneling completely
Even if we accept that tunnelling will always be in the game, it could at least become a legitimate part of the game and be balanced like one.
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@Terror_Misu said:
This isn't something Im pushing, just curious as to the takes.
Scenario: If a survivor uses anti tunneling perks (DS, OTR) aggressively, despite the killer not tunneling, they are called bad because 'you cant punish a killer for not tunneling.' Using a perk to do something unintended is.. 'bad'. Ok, got it.
I never used Distortion to 'rat'. Most didn't tbh, its just the killer echo chamber. But in this situation, Im being punished for it. Bad, right? I cant use old distortion because why again? Because others 'think' its a rat thing? Even if it was, I certainly didn't do that, but here we are.
I just find these things annoying and humorous at the same time. The hypocritical tendencies of people on this forum is bloated to ridiculous proportions. I'm sure someone will come and slash through this though, but ehhh. I'd like to hear perspectives.
I think this comparison rests on the idea that Distortion was fully and wholly only reworked because of the rat playstyles, which I think is a little suspect- Distortion was, after all, really damn good at its job before, easily up to the point where it could've been nerfed purely on the merits of it being too strong.
There's a temptation to filter changes through a "killer main versus survivor main" lens, but it's important to remember that completely normal and neutral changes can happen too. Sometimes a thing gets adjusted because it needs to be adjusted, and complaints are only a secondary result of it needing to be adjusted instead of the cause for it being adjusted.
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Whether it's Stranger Things themed or not, I'm hoping the next rift has extra stuff in it after a lengthy stretch of a comparatively pretty empty rift this time around.
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For the record, if we're thinking of the same statement, BHVR did not say they wouldn't buff Trapper because of his killrate.
If you're referring to that reddit AMA answer, the most important thing to remember is that they announced a Trapper buff in that answer.
The second most important thing to remember is that what they said they didn't want to do was rework Trapper, due to a combination of his killrates being better than some think at lower and middling levels, and them liking him as the basic, simple, pick-up-easily killer for newer players.
(They never clarified on the killrate thing, but I personally interpret it as not wanting to make him too oppressive at low levels, which is a real concern.)Making sure Trapper isn't too much of a noob stomper is a concern, a real one that does need to be kept in mind, but I've always maintained he can be healthily buffed within that framework. What he's received so far has been genuinely helpful, but he's still missing that extra oomph that he needs to really be able to run his gameplan well.
I've always pitched these things, broadly:
- Trapper's traps should spawn already placed at windows and pallets, to allow players to just arm those and cut down on setup time if they're acceptable placements
- Trapper's traps could (depending on testing) be altered visually depending on what map you're on to cut down on Eyrie of Crows being a hard counter
- Trapper's addons should be overhauled with an eye towards giving him options he doesn't currently have (such as Undetectable, to give one example) and an understanding that survivors disarming traps is a more realistic trigger for activation than them stepping in traps.
- Less committed to this but I do think re-arming traps could stand to be faster than placing them, or maybe something with grabbing someone out of a trap automatically resetting it (versus smacking them out to keep it disarmed)
Even just that first point would really help Trapper out, but anything more would be ideal obviously.
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I may be in the minority here but I actually like that the seasonal events (at least Bone Chill anyway) operate with the same basic template and minor changes, like this year's pallet freezing.
It's nice to know what you're going to get, and all I personally really want out of a winter end-of-year event is stuff like the snowball throwing and the snowmen mechanic. I do miss the snowmen that wandered around without anyone inside them though, I'd like those to be a staple.
The only thing I think is really worth criticising about this year's event is that the rewards are a bit lacklustre compared to previous years, the event itself is pretty good imo.
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@Wezqu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040815#Comment_4040815
They can still give it one more token to have maximum it would not make it op as it still relies of you being in chase to charge it but will reward those that manage to loop the killer and isn't that the point. You can still lose those tokens quite fast even if you can learn what killer has but there is several perks that you have really hard to pinpoint why you lost a token running through this random part of the map. Like Human Greed and Hex: Undying as you can lose those on objects you don't always see around you as they can be behind obstacles.
Shadow Step is one of those really forgotten boon totems but can be extremely good to have if killer is too reliant on aura perks as you say.
I wouldn't say up the maximum tokens, but I do think it'd be fair to have it start with two instead of one. That gives it a little extra oomph, especially against killers running Lethal Pursuer.
Overall it's not in a bad spot, though.
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For the record, Distortion is still a perfectly reliable and consistent aura blocking tool.
An underrated strength of Distortion compared to some of its peers (of which there admittedly aren't enough, in my opinion) is that it tells you what perks the killer is bringing, with a small margin for error. Knowing what the killer has is useful because it means you can start avoiding future aura reads without using a token on it.
If the killer has Barbecue & Chili, for example, one of the more popular aura reading perks, then Distortion using one token on that tells you it's BBQ reliably (as the other post-hook aura perks have extra tells), and that means you can hop in a locker to preserve tokens when the killer's about to hook someone.If you want some extra answers, there are two, though one of them did get weaker recently.
Off The Record gives you 40 seconds of aura blocking after you're unhooked, which is admittedly not nearly as good as it used to be but it can still let you slip away from the hook and reset without being sniped by a random aura reveal. If that's the kind of situation the killer finds you in that's causing you annoyance, OTR is decent.
Boon: Shadow Step gives you a bubble of complete immunity to auras, which means that - if you use it smartly, it's easy to waste time with it - you can get specific generators done without having your aura revealed. If it's killers approaching your generators that causes you frustration, Shadow Step is pretty decent there.
Distortion works in both scenarios, just less reliably, and it's extra good at beating perks that reveal your aura mid-chase like I'm All Ears or Predator.
Aura perks are quite good on the whole, but they aren't uncounterable. They're also pretty plentiful, but your average killer is only going to be using one or two, and it's likely to be one or two of maybe five ish perks to boot, most aura perks don't really see play.
You've got answers, you just need to be able to identify what aura triggers give you the most trouble. -
A lot of people asked for the presets, for the record. That was a pretty anticipated change and a very welcome one for a lot of players.
Similarly the game taking a long time to actually boot up because of stuff like the intro had been talked about before, albeit not to the same extent. That also was a fairly welcome QoL change for a lot of people from what I recall.
Broadly though, "nobody asked for this" isn't really a criticism. If it's a good change it's good that it happened regardless, and if it's a bad change the problem is that it's bad, not that nobody asked for it.
I would like to see better prioritisation for bug fixes, though.
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Good question… I don't have concrete ideas for the "how" of all of these, but I think broadly the list would be:
- Another pass at anti-tunnel. Ideally sooner rather than later, but if it's towards the end of the year, that'd be palatable as long as it is more likely to actually happen this time. This one I'm actually cooking a post about, a version of anti-tunnel that learns from the previous attempts.
- Trapper update. Nothing huge, just a moderate set of dedicated changes for addressing his bigger pain points.
- Something for limiting slowdown perks in a healthy way, so each perk can be individually stronger without worrying about stacking getting out of hand.
- Something to limit unhookable build shenanigans and/or something to limit really aggressive hook denial, it's SUCH a pain on killer. Flashlight squads are fine, even fairly dedicated sabo players aren't that bad, but there's a threshold where everything's being used in extremes where it gets so frustrating to play against.
- (Honestly flashlight addons could use an overhaul though)
- Bloodweb clutter overhaul, especially focused on how outdated and cluttered the offering system is. Maybe paired with a Luck mechanic rework to make it actually a real part of the game?
- Doctor Who content of some kind :)
Fairly unlikely we'll see all of these, but I'd be ecstatic if we saw two or three across the year. Obviously too, continuing the trend of buffing a bunch of perks in most updates is good, but I don't think they're gonna stop that any time soon.
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Trapper, Skull Merchant, and honestly the third spot does kinda change based on the day.
The weakest five in my opinion are those two + Sadako, Ghostface, and Trickster. I tend to flip-flop who I put where though beyond Skull Merchant worst and Trapper second worst.
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@Junylar said:
With the current state of the game balance, tunneling is a necessary condition for just having a chance at winning against a competent SWF on comms. They will run 16 second chance perks and take 7 hits for each hook state each, making it only possible to secure a kill if you just focus one guy. You will finish consuming his endurances and hastes just when they pop the last gen, if you are lucky. If tunneling becomes impossible, but SWFs continue to be allowed to the general queue and second chance perks are not nerfed, the kill rate will drop to 5% at the higher MMR brackets, and these 5% will be due to the cheaters with insta kill bots.
If you are tired of playing survivor - just play killer, and after a few 4k's and leaving the baby MMR bracket you will start encountering the invincible quartets and the Achaemenid immortals I'm talking about, you will quickly change your mind after hitting a guy 8th time in a row and still failing to actually hook him.
May I ask, what tools are you actually referring to with the idea of needing to hit someone seven times for each hook state?
Even accepting that as hyperbole, I'm struggling to think of ways survivors have to reliably take more than one extra hit to down that aren't dedicated anti-tunnel.
Dead Hard gives them a potential extra hit if you're playing one of the killers whose attacks are telegraphed enough to DH on reaction, so that's three total hits, but what else do they actually have? Endurance doesn't stack with itself and even if it did, a lot of the tools for it in this regard have been steadily changed over the years.
Dead Hard also requires a hook to activate, so they don't have access to it for their first hook.If you're not tunnelling someone (which is I assume the central assumption here), then how do they take more than the one potential extra hit from Dead Hard with any regularity?
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@Zuiphrode said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039722#Comment_4039722
Doctor Who is not a horror show by any stretch of the word, it's British sci-fi "humor".
…Have you watched it? It bounces pretty cleanly between the more lighthearted sci-fi episodes and the more horror-oriented episodes.
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To be fair, that wasn't really an effective or healthy nerf for Off The Record either. Aggressive use of it is still just as possible and not much really changed for either aggressive or defensive uses of the perk.
OTR is actually possible to weaponise in general, too, so if it wasn't effective there I see no reason to do it for DS as well.
I'm not saying aggressive use of anti-tunnel isn't a problem, just that shortening the durations like that isn't really going to address it properly. More holistic changes are needed.
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I'm surprised to hear anyone referring to it as OP, most people fall into the trap of thinking it's bad instead.
I wouldn't agree with OP, but ever since 6.1 it's been a perfectly serviceable perk if you build around it. Overzealous plus a Boon is the best setup, you get to minimise the setup time of both perks (as you get two or more effects out of it) and you get infinite uses of Overzealous, plus giving your teammates whatever Boon you picked (realistically CoH, it's still the strongest).
I definitely wouldn't recommend actually cleansing totems with Overzealous, unless you have some other perk you're activating with it and Overezealous is just a bonus on top.
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@Zuiphrode said:
Your favorite pop culture thing doesn't need to be in DBD.
Doctor Who is pretty up there when it comes to iconic horror media, I'd say it has as much claim as something like Stranger Things.
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I'd love a Doctor Who chapter in general.
If the devs could figure out how to make Daleks work, man, that'd be the coolest thing…
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@MrRetsej said:
We already saw what it was like at 5 seconds and at 3 seconds. Neither one was fair. 4 seconds seems to be the sweet spot.
To be fair, the version of DS that had a five second stun and wasn't fair was unfair for reasons unrelated to the length of the stun.
We've never had a version of DS that has a five second stun but that can't be used in the endgame and deactivates with Conspicuous Actions, to my recollection. That would be the sweet spot in my opinion.
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@Philscooper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4038957#Comment_4038957
the majority of the things that were promised didnt get delivered
the game is still buggy and the anti-changes that was promised to us 9 months ago, are scrapped.
frankly, the perk loadout being on the hud, will not change the nerfs we already recieve this year (if the killer mains wont complain about that to oblivious and also get that shut down too)
the stuff onward to feburary, i dont care about and frankly shouldnt need the operation health to begin with.
at most, maybe mmr changes, but i doubt they wont screw it up further.
i mean, every new content or rework, is : overtuned, boring or underbuffed to the extremes.
and i havent even mentioned the events and survivor content that has left me questioning why i bothered being a survivor main in the first place.I was answering why the thread is still pinned, specifically.
It's for a roadmap that hasn't finished yet, so it's still pinned until the roadmap finishes.
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@Mandy said:
ohhh I'm going to have to check out some of those @jesterkind I'd not actually played Signalis myself so pretty sure I'm going to give that a go over the holiday break
It's interesting to see what other people play!
Signalis is awesome, I fully recommend it. That game and Crow Country get basically unreserved recommendations from me, they're different experiences but they're pulling on similar ideas.
Hope you enjoy it and the rest of your break!
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Ooh, game reccs, I'm good at these.
If we're talking standout indie horror titles, I don't think it's controversial to give Signalis a shoutout right off the bat. Absolutely fantastic love letter to the older style of survival horror games with excellent imagery and a fantastically ambiguous storyline, plus some compelling tense gameplay. If you haven't played it, you should.
However, in a very similar vein of mimicking older survival horror, I would be remiss not to shout out Crow Country, which I absolutely adored every second of. It's much more lighthearted than Signalis but still has its fair share of scary imagery and tense moments, and the writing is top notch.
Everyone I have showed Crow Country to became someone who started convincing others to play it, it's such a good game.I admittedly haven't finished these, but I also want to shout out Heartworm and You Will Die Here Tonight.
They're both classic survival horror as well, with Heartworm recreating the dreamy atmosphere and haunting references to trauma of something like Silent Hill, plus including the gimmick of only damaging enemies by taking pictures of them with your camera that I believe originates in Fatal Frame, though I've never played that. As a bonus, the camera is also your flashlight, illuminating the darkness with the flash that lingers for a few seconds before fading.
You Will Die Here Tonight is extremely old Resident Evil core, with the twist that you control multiple characters who are very certain to perish on the journey, leading you to use the next character to capitalise on the progress you made. It also has a time-loop element I personally find very compelling.
I only played the opening segment to that one, but it's awesome, I really should get back to it.I'll cap off there so this doesn't get too long, but as you can tell I have a fondness for classic survival horror. It's no wonder I've stayed here in the Fog for so many years…
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@saym said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039084#Comment_4039084
There’s no need to abandon Casual.
I’m not saying we should only focus on competitiveness.
I’ll say it again: the important thing is having the option.
I was responding to OP, not to your suggestion of a ranked mode.
On that topic, there are some practical concerns standing in the way, but if those concerns are ever addressed I don't really mind the idea.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039100#Comment_4039100
I think you have that backwards for the trap killers, those are generally seen as core perks for those killer so they have TIME to setup.
I've seen people say it before, but I just don't see the logic.
Setting up takes time, and if the survivors run towards you straight away, you don't have that time. Setting up also means you're effectively choosing a few generators to not defend, because your web can't be that big, but Corrupt pushes survivors away from doing those gens first.
I know people consider Corrupt a core perk on Trapper and Hag but I've never understood why unless they're not setting up, like I described above.
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This does get discussed from time to time, and it generally is pretty popular as an idea.
Personally, though, I'm against it, because it isn't an equal benefit for all killers and some killers would be locked out of certain playstyles by not being able to opt-out of Corrupt.
Trapper and Hag, for example, would be at a detriment if they want to spend time setting up. Not only are the survivors running directly into their web before it's done, but they're also setting up that web away from the pristine, untouched generators that Corrupt blocks at the start of the match.
It's fine for them if they only want to put down one or two traps then get into a chase, but the choice for which playstyle to use would be taken away here.Myers and Ghostface, too, can benefit from knowing that the survivors are very likely to be in static positions across the map, to get some good early stalk progress in. Again, it's not just a detriment because they can definitely benefit from Corrupt too, but it takes choice away from them too.
There's definitely room to help killers out in the early game (though what BHVR's already done in this regard is genuinely really impactful), but I don't personally think this is the way to go.
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@jmwjmw27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039067#Comment_4039067
You need 3v1 to stand a chance against a good team. As long as the game remains in the 4v1 you will be losing gens. This is the case basically across the board and is generally the killer's first step to winning a game "optimally".
If you are going against a good team, yes, they will be well equipped to counter tunneling, but they're also going to counter everything else you try even harder.
When it will take you over a minute to secure a down on a single player, doing anything other than aiming for the fastest possible elimination is simply not viable. The best route to victory is therefore aiming for the 3v1 with as little downs as possible, which means tunneling. Even through DS.
If you have a good team with DS activating twice, you will need 5 downs (2 extra because of the 2 DS usages) to most quickly eliminate one person. And that simply is not possible on a weaker killer in the time you have.
And sure, a god tier team is rare, but an average one with DS isn't nearly as rare; and is more than enough to make the average player unable to do anything on your average killer.
They can't be equipped for everything, there's only so many perk slots the team has to share. Besides, if it's a proper high level 4 stack SWF then you'll get more results trying to leverage their altruism than trying to brute-force through the thing they expect you to do.
This is all hypothetical, though, it categorically is not true for average teams. Average teams that have DS are just teams who have a dead perk slot if you don't tunnel, and you'll definitely get much much more by not tunnelling them if they're trying to lean in to anti-tunnel builds.
Even competent, confident, and above average teams can be beaten without tunnelling very reliably, you really don't need to worry if it's an average team.
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Wouldn't that make it too easy to tunnel someone with DS active, though?
It's already a perk you can 100% avoid as killer, I don't think it needs to be weaker. If anything I think it needs to be a bit better at its job, it already doesn't really deter a lot of the cast from tunnelling you even if it's used.
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@Kupega said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4038957#Comment_4038957
I don't think 2 months is gonna change much when 9 months already has been lackluster
I was responding to why the roadmap is still pinned. It's pinned because it isn't finished yet.
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I've always found there's a useful distinction between "casual game" and "party game" in this context.
Adding those in to the idea of a "competitive game" (I don't have a better term for this- obviously all the games being discussed are literally competitive because they're PvP, but people broadly understand what's meant here I think) gives us a more useful spread of potential games to look at.
A "competitive game" in this context is easy to define. Something like CS:GO, League of Legends, your average fighting game- they're all designed around taking the competitive element seriously and are structured around this idea. They may have casual queues, but those don't tend to be the main focus of the playerbase and broadly aren't what's balanced around as much.
A "party game" in this context would be where things like Fall Guys and Mario Kart come in. It's not as though there's no competitive elements to those games at all, but they're fundamentally designed around being easy to pick up and play, more chaotic than competitive, and largely just things you'd have going at a party or other gathering without people needing to commit too much to playing them.
Easy, simple, quick, something you can explain to someone in five minutes and have them be able to play competently.A "casual game", to me, would be in between those two. It has more of a commitment and more of a skill curve than a party game, there'd still be the capacity for it to be taken seriously, but it's more designed around being the game that you'd play during a Discord hangout with your mates rather than something going on at a party. For other examples in this vein, think of something like Phasmophobia, or even more chaotic games like Lethal Company.
There's a bit too much setup and explanation involved for them to really be considered the same kind of thing as Mario Kart or Fall Guys, but they're also clearly not designed the same way as something like CS:GO or League.DBD, to me, is a casual game first and foremost. It's one with a bit more of a competitive streak than some others, but BHVR fundamentally balance it more in line with that kind of thing.
The competitive element of DBD has grown over time, but I don't think it's fully outgrown its casual nature just yet. -
@jmwjmw27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039038#Comment_4039038
If you’re playing a weak killer at a high level vs high level survivors you’re not getting a win without tunneling unless they make a ton of mistakes and you make almost none.
I've never understood this take, personally.
Surely if you're playing against a genuinely high level team, you have less leeway to tunnel, because they're the only ones who reasonably can counter tunnelling?
Ditto for playing an actually weak killer - if it's actually a weak killer and not just a middle of the pack killer, you definitionally don't have much to help you tunnel out a survivor who is already skilled at overcoming the harder chase that comes with being tunnelled.Those players are the ones you'd avoid trying to tunnel because they're used to it, equipped to deal with it, and thus harder to actually get a tunnel out on.
Either way it doesn't really matter- that kind of team is very rare so I'd take that edge case if it means making anti-tunnel stronger tbh
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Five seconds and making the skill check about the same size as an Autodidact skill check would be the changes I'd make.
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@jmwjmw27 said:
This would be a fine change in 99% of games, but if you get a 4 stack with 4 ds and they’re good at the game that’s gg for most of the killer roster. I’m also not sure I agree with solving problems with the game using perks as the solution.
I think they need to do away with the skill check considering it’s about to become a general perk that newer players can use.
I'm not sure I follow your logic. Wouldn't that actually be a slight edge for you if you're playing a weaker killer?
After all, that four stack is only running three perks each that actually concern you, which is something.