jesterkind
jesterkind
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Playing aggressive and trying to bait the killer into a stun is engaging and fun for a lot of players.
DS is really the least problematic of the tools used this way, since it can be avoided with 100% consistency on the killer end.
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If I remember right (it was a while ago and soon after I started playing in general) Blight was noticeably weaker on release because of the lower camera, so probably it's more fair to start counting after that update for this comparison?
Either way, it is kind of interesting to think about.
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When did BHVR nerf Unknown? I only recall it getting buffs.
This is also beside the point but how on earth did "Harmless" become the joke name for Unknown, surely something like "Unthreatening" or "Ineffective" would mesh better with the name…
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@Terror_Misu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4059825#Comment_4059825
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4059826#Comment_4059826
You give anti-loop drones as a reason entitled survivors wanted her nerf'd instead of Learning the counter play?
OP, a new player to the game as stated, asks you to clarify the counter play to anti-loop drones
Crouching/standing still. Deactivating drones. Forcing an M1 to… wow.
Op, this is an example why you need to really weigh all the info you get from these forums. You will have survivor mains, even entitled ones. You will have killer mains doing the same thing. See example above.
Just to be clear, all of his 'counter plays' will get the survivor killed. Hence… no real counter play. Not to say there wasn't any, but @skwillexy and I disagree. Like, full stop. Skull merchant of her release was hell, and I (showing another bias) refuse to add her to my roster. She's the only character I don't have in the game. Those games were hellish when trying to get friends into the game.
Someone will likely say things I could have done, and that's cool. They're right. Etc.To clarify for anyone reading:
Skull Merchant's drones have beams that need to pass over you in order to gain a stack, and don't scan crouching survivors. Immediately this makes the basic counterplay clear: watch the beams and position to block line of sight, then crouch/stand still as a beam passes over you when you can't do that.
Additionally, it's relevant context what the stacks actually do, which is to say: almost nothing.
Unless you're scanned within a few seconds of her deploying the drone or rotating the beam (in which case she gets a small Haste boost), the scans only build towards an injury and put you on her radar for a short duration. This makes some more of her counterplay slightly more clear: sometimes you take a scan and run away, such as if you have Lithe but the beam is about to hit the window. If you've only got zero to one stack, just take the beam and rocket away.Additionally to that, being injured via the drone is worse for you than being injured via basic attack, since the drone imparts Broken, puts you on her radar for longer, and leaves you susceptible to Hindered. This again reveals some more counterplay: sometimes you take an M1 to avoid the extra penalties, similar to forcing an M1 from Hillbilly.
Finally, her drones are technically traps and sometimes get placed ahead of time, so you can disarm them for the next time a survivor is chased near that area. This, admittedly, isn't that important or impactful, at least in my opinion.
The biggest problem Skull Merchant had and to a degree still has (even though it matters way less) is that it does kinda seem like she doesn't have counterplay if you don't know exactly how she works. Once you do, though, she very much does have counterplay, and good counterplay too- it's effective and, at least in my opinion, it's fun to do.
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@zonkednb said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4059849#Comment_4059849
Honestly cements it, yeah. It does sound like she was lame in the beginning. Something about players optimising the fun out of a game. Sure, 1hr isn't optimal, but if it guarantees no loss condition might as well if you're not off to a flying start… Not that I agree with the behaviour, just recognising it's kind of inevitible.
Would you say in hindsight, @skwillexy is correct? The sledgehammer-tier nerfing she got was largely unwarranted and based on player vibes than actual viability? I've actually never come across her in a game before. Guess that's why her reputation seems to straddle two camps; entirely forgotten and vehemently detested.
Out of pure conversation, and a fixation I have on this mystery character everyone hates, what are the ideas for fixing her up? Or is it one of those cases where there'd likely be no way to feasibly make drone gameplay work without it beging set and forget value that's profoundly unfun?https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4059850#Comment_4059850
I think it's a good thing it's limited. Trying to imagine Springtrap with infinite kicks for example. His mobility absolutely could not exist with how easy it is to regress gens using it, especially using guitar strings add on and info/regression perks.
The sledgehammer nerfs she got were, I'd argue, misapplied because of the complaints. There were some real problems and to an extent they still exist, they just weren't related to her basic gameplay loop- which is what the nerfs were aimed at dismantling.
Going back to her pre-nerf state, if you want to fix the few problems she has, you'd be looking at these problem areas:
- Skull Merchant's power didn't and still doesn't provide enough information about how it works to survivors
- Her ability to drop a drone at a loop and "force" survivors to run away is, while misunderstood in its intensity, still something she can do and it is hella boring whenever any killer can do that
- This one's subjective on my part but I really don't understand why she has Deep Wound. If we're already in the neighbourhood might as well just get rid of that
When you understand what her power does properly, in my opinion she honestly becomes pretty fun to play against - the positioning battle of dodging drones is really interactive and interesting to me - but you kinda have to go to outside sources to understand what happens, on what triggers, and for how long. There are a bunch of ways to address this though, it's not an unfixable problem- she just lacks the kind of tells the other killers have.
As for dropping a drone at a loop, they are designed to be played around in loops so it's not as universal a tactic as it is on other killers, but the sort of cheap crappy filler loops you'll find are ones she can force you away from which is just kinda boring. They actually gestured towards fixing this by giving her a brief slowdown when placing a drone, but it wasn't particularly noticeable. A better set of nerfs might include a more noticeable slowdown, so if you do have to run away you at least get some good distance.These are ultimately relatively minor problems compared to some other killers, it must be said, but we may as well talk about them if she's gonna be a hot topic forever.
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Others have made the rundown already, but just to cement it: When she released, she had huge problems. She was kind of just not very good, except for her ability to stall the game out until the servers closed after an hour, which she was unreasonably good at doing.
This generated a lot of hate that was amplified a little by her visual design not being super appealing to a chunk of the playerbase. This snowballed into more unreasonable hate, like picking apart her lore, for some reason, even though it was just kinda fine.
I say this to emphasise the intensity of the situation when Merchant first launched.The devs tried a few things with that power, but ultimately reworked her to make her do something completely different. For reference, her drones used to be big AOE fields that provided stealth for her, and were reworked into the shape we have now, with the rotating beams and a chase-heavy, interactive for both sides design.
This rework did objectively fix the big problems Merchant used to have and I would personally argue only added a handful of small minor new problems, but people still continued to hate her largely for irrational reasons. Eventually she also, on top of the rework, got nerfed into the ground until the devs could get around to reworking her a second time, which is where we're at now: light buffs to tide us over until another rework which presumably is still on the horizon.Unfortunately I can't make sense of the lingering hate for you because it doesn't really have any sensible basis, it's just kind of a holdover.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4058211#Comment_4058211
well then you have to factor in looping and pallets which delay hooking in gwneral if survivors are competent (which i am assuming all survivors are)
1 should be in chase extending it as long as possible and the other 3 should be doing gens so 3 pop in the first chase cutting their objective down massively since it's 2-3 gens being completed for 1 hook
after if survivors play efficently and do chases heal and die in generator dead zones where the killer has to choose to pressure a survivor at the risk of gens popping or patrol gens and give up pressure allowing them to reset and so gens
tunneling is neccesary since a killer can only be at one place at a time barring exceptions since they can't pressure all 4 survivors at the same time so they slug and tunnel to make up for this to pressure survivors so they do something other than gens. btw that was what the knockout meta was about before the devs destroyed knock out since hooking survivors buffs them instead of making them weaker which the devs never addressed
Well, yes, survivors have ways of playing well too, that should largely be expected from a PvP game.
It's quite unlikely for the first chase to take as long as it would need for survivors to spread out to separate gens and finish them, so I don't think I agree with the idea that three gens popping in your first chase should be considered an inevitability. That sounds far more to me like the killer's not playing well, either by wasting too much time before starting the first chase or taking way too long to finish the first chase.
As for the idea of having to choose between pressuring a survivor or patrolling gens… that's not really a choice? You pressure the survivor, patrolling gens is just begging for a loss. You should be avoiding that at all costs.
Ultimately though none of this really changes the main point, which is that once you do get a hook, the game slows down. That's an extremely important aspect of killer gameplay that often gets overlooked in these conversations.
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@Lokantor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4058422#Comment_4058422
But Spirit Fury currently does work with Special Breaks, the version they showed only has Spirit Fury working on Basic Breaks
…Yes. Spirit Fury looks like it might be changing considering what they showed doesn't match how the perk works now.
That isn't inherently due to the new phrases. The new phrases are still a good and useful tool. They're still just more accurate descriptions to convey how perks work better and to allow more streamlined conversation about balance.
Like, example. You mentioned Thwack earlier. Let's assume for a moment that Thwack gets a similar change and only works on basic breaks.
That would be a fairly unnecessary change, and I would agree with resisting it. However, the way we resist that change could very easily be to say "this perk should activate from special breaks", not to say the concept of the phrase "special break" is a problem.
The core change being made here is language, not balance. IF some perks are being changed ALONGSIDE the new phrasing, that could be a problem, but the new phrasing itself is not the issue.
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I've always thought the comparatively fewer gens is because of the same basic principle of the main game, where killers playing well slows the game down pretty heavily.
It's hypothetically possible, and even quite realistically achievable, for two killers to occupy six survivors between them, leaving only two to do generators. Killer macro pressure doubles with two killers on the field, so it makes sense that the macro requirements for survivor don't go up by as much since that could end up really lopsided in favour of killer.
Not that super strict balance is a requirement for the goofy party mode, but still. Balance matters a little so I think this particular facet is pretty reasonable, personally.
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@Lokantor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4058350#Comment_4058350
That's why I clarified, I'm not talking about the language changes, I just don't like this mechanical change. It ruins some Spirit Fury builds and might affect other builds beyond it, like Oni Twack for example, if they make that into Basic Break only, the Oni mains just get screwed over, it's better to just keep special and basic breaks and vaults the same thing. That way off-meta builds can still be fun and aren't getting needlessly nerfed.
Right, but my point is the mechanical change is only relevant to Spirit Fury and only because there's a discrepancy in the description we were shown.
This isn't a set of mechanical changes. It's a set of new words. If Thwack works on special breaks now, then presumably, the perk card will say "basic or special break" on it after the new words are introduced.
Or, well, probably "by any means" since that's how it's phrased for basic/special attacks, but you get my point.I'm not saying it's impossible for perks to be adjusted to be more standardised, in fact I think that's going to happen alongside the new phrasing, but that would be a separate change to introducing the phrasing "special break".
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@Lokantor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4058113#Comment_4058113
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4058109#Comment_4058109
Didn't they literally make it so Spirit Fury only works with "Basic Break" actions? That's a nerf to all killers that can use their power in some way to break pallets for charges. And who's to say they wont do that to other perks? For all we know, they could do the same thing to perks like Bam or Thwack.
What people are referring to is that one of the examples shown for this new language was Spirit Fury, and that one in particular did have a description that reads differently to how it currently works.
The overall basic/special split is still a set of language changes even if that one perk is changing and it's still worth pointing that out. The question of what's going on with Spirit Fury is its own conversation separate to the language change.
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@terumisan said:
well it's 12 hooks to 5 gens unless the gens took forever ( the devs nerfed gen regression so only top tiers are viable) the math doesn't add up since the survivors objective can be done long before a killers
Each of those twelve hooks slows down the five gens, though, which is a really important part of the maths that often gets overlooked in these conversations.
Played well, and assuming the survivors aren't lurking for an insta-save (which is its own conversation), a hook cuts overall potential generator efficiency by 75%.
If we assume that any survivor who isn't otherwise occupied will be repairing a generator (which is reasonable for good players), then the 100% here would be represented by all four merrily chipping away at their respective generators. After a hook, you have:One survivor occupied via being on the hook, where it's impossible to do gens. That's 75% overall efficiency.
One survivor occupied via being in chase with you, since you're not just standing at the hook with your d- weapon in your hands. That's 50% overall efficiency.
One survivor occupied via running to the hook for a save, which does need to happen relatively quickly. That's 25% overall efficiency.
One survivor actually on gens. As mentioned, 25%.Don't get me wrong, there's nuance about how much % efficiency one survivor represents and other considerations, but that's the most basic level, fundamental rundown.
Where tunnelling comes into this is purely and solely that it's unbalanced. You can skip the macro juggling by just getting easier chases on a survivor who was just unhooked, which translates into quicker/easier eliminations. You get good value for less effort, that's why people do it.
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Hard agree. Everything else about this perk description update looks great, but losing the intro flavour would really be a damn shame and I don't think it's necessary.
I honestly find it slightly easier to parse at a glance with the flavour text formatted like that, though admittedly I couldn't tell you why.
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As someone else said, this is a language change on a bunch of perks, not a balance change.
They're introducing a set of terms to make it more clear how perks CURRENTLY work, for the most part. I'm sure a handful of perks could get adjusted alongside it, but the idea of "special breaks" and "special vaults" in general is just to make it more clear how perks function and what activates them.
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I'm not sure I agree.
The game already makes a distinction between "basic attack" and "special attack", so new players have a pattern to work from which makes learning easier. Plus, there's that "more details" button they're adding, which may only show status effect descriptions at first but could definitely also define those terms at some point in the future.
I think it'll probably work out fine, at worst there might be a brief period of slight confusion.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057820#Comment_4057820
Not just m1 killers, but many of the killers that are objectively weaker:
Bubba, Demogorgon, Legion, Myers, Nemesis, Knight
And which killers don't care? Probably the ones not running this perk anyway, and Ghoul, Nurse, Blight, etc.
It was the phrasing of M1 killers that threw me, because they're explicitly the ones who don't have a special break to be affected by this potential change.
I still think it's weird to run the perk for dealing with pallets better on killers who can already deal with pallets better, but that's a separate thing.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057820#Comment_4057820
Legion is an M1 killer who will be affected by both special pallet break and special window vault.
Well, Bubba is not a M1 killer, but he is not very strong and will be affected by this change.
Again, my point it was that this will affect mostly weaker killer than the already strong ones.
I mean, insofar as some of the language will make it clear when Legion's vault doesn't activate perks, yes, but that's a language change.
As for the second part, that makes a bit more sense. I'm still not sure I agree, I'm learning for the first time here that apparently people use Spirit Fury on killers that already have a pallet break for some reason but I've always been of the opinion it helps M1 killers that have to swing through pallets and don't have an alternate way of dealing with it much more.
Even if it's actually changing I struggle to think of special-break killers that really want to use Spirit Fury. You cite Bubba but he's really good at dealing with pallets, he really doesn't need it.
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@Rickprado said:
Ironically, this nerfs more the weak M1 killers than the already strong top tier killers who can deal with pallets and vaults easily.
Hope they do some more changes to accomodate for this.
…Wait, how?
Even if Spirit Fury's changing here, the M1 killers who'd use this perk are explicitly unaffected, they're the ones using basic breaks to charge the perk. I can't think of any M1 killers who even have a special break.
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For the record if you haven't seen the stream, what was announced wasn't a sweeping change to how perks interact with powers, it was a set of new terms to help make it clear IF a perk interacts with powers. They stressed multiple times that this isn't supposed to change the gameplay of any of the affected perks- for example, the other perk they listed when showing off the basic break/special break split was Alert, which currently doesn't activate on power breaks and the new description is more clear about that.
Honestly I was under the impression Spirit Fury already worked this way? But it's not exactly a perk that is very useful on killers with power breaks so I've never really bothered running it on them.
I don't have a PC right now or I'd do it myself, but I'd strongly recommend someone actively go into the game and test a bunch of power breaks then - and this second part is important - also test those power breaks on the PTB, to see if anything's actually changing. When it comes to BHVR miscommunication is just as likely as something actually changing, in my experience.
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The only real issue is Eruption, not the limit itself. Eight regression events per generator is a ton, there's no reasonable explanation for hitting that consistently unless you're specifically running Eruption - and even then you kinda have to be running Eruption and something else, you can run Eruption carefully on its own without issue.
The reason the issue is Eruption is because Eruption doesn't get eight, it gets four, and that is a lot lower. I have come to think the perk really needs a full on rework, since it's only a decent/okay perk now and isn't really that much of a staple.
I've pitched before that it could be as simple as making it so Eruption being off cooldown removes the instant regression from a kick entirely, and the delayed explosion is raised to accommodate. That way it's the same overall percentage, skewed towards higher burst but less sustain, and the perk enables fun gen-kick builds instead of being a detriment to them.There are definitely other ways of fixing it, though.
As an aside, this all also applies to Undone because that uses two regression events at once, but nobody runs that because it's bad. It needs a rework too but for completely different reasons lol.
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@skwillexy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4056932#Comment_4056932
I mean it literally says feedback and suggestions and "our team will be happy to read these“ which I highly doubt at this point
Oh, you mean this specific category, not the forum as a whole?
I would argue it's still for community discussion on game feedback and game suggestions, but it is definitely more skewed towards the devs noting down some of the stuff written here for sure.
I've personally always felt there's a temptation to think that if the devs are reading our feedback, that should necessarily mean they act on that feedback directly and immediately, but I don't think that's super fair.Personally, I think someone at BHVR does read these posts and I think that does affect their decisionmaking overall, but they have other things to weigh it all against as well. Listening to our feedback doesn't always mean doing exactly what's suggested.
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The point of the forum is more for community discussion and interaction with each other, some ideas making their way to the devs is just a side bonus like bug reporting is.
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I've never heard the word "celerity" before, that's awesome. Adding that to my lexicon immediately.
To the idea specifically, I have been thinking that might be an interesting way of making him a touch more threatening at higher levels without harming low level play too unduly— after all, that's the skill bracket already going down to Ghostface pretty reliably.
Personally I'd skew a little safer, give him a 3% boost but have it stick around while he's in chase. Marking survivors means they can't reveal him and remove the bonus, so he's still incentivised to be sneaky and not rush people down, and he also doesn't get such a huge buff that he becomes a killer whose defining trait is speed.
I don't much like the idea of Haste after being revealed, though. Maybe make it an addon instead?
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What's the idea behind giving the ebony mori basekit?
I understand the intent behind the rest of these changes (though I do disagree with a few), but that one feels a little arbitrary. What did you have in mind there?
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I think attempting to achieve perfect balance isn't really super desirable, so my focus personally would be on tightening up edge cases and promoting more fair + engaging gameplay for both sides.
This obviously isn't an exhaustive list but I think the big bullet points would be…
- Nerf tunnelling. I've got this post up for more details on the specifics of how I think it should be done, but TLDR is that rehooking someone immediately after they're unhooked results in no hook state gained, to make tunnelling someone more of a situational slowdown tactic like slugging.
- Rework toolboxes, also explained in the post above but the TLDR is that problematic gen speeds basically always require a toolbox. Since just nerfing the numbers wouldn't be satisfying, repair speed should be replaced with something else entirely.
- Increase information gain for solo queue. I'd personally be wary of some kind of ping system, so instead I'd look at things like seeing your teammates' perks in the match details screen + a timed aura reveal on your teammates when someone's hooked, stuff like that.
- I don't have specifics for this, but something to pare down aggressive objective denial on the survivor side. Full dedicated teams for this can be really obnoxious, but each component they use is reasonably balanced on its own, so I'm not really sure how to tackle this one.
- Disincentivise slowdown perk stacking on the killer end. Refer to this post for details on how, but TL;DR would be that regressing generators wouldn't be affected by generator explosions or generator blocking.
From there, I think you'd be left with more specific balance problems, EG, nerfing the strongest killers, shuffling strength on meta perks for both sides, and addressing overall map balance. This kind of thing is always going to be a longterm, iterative process, but the bullet points there should provide a more stable base to work from.
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I would love to see proximity chat as an officially supported custom match option, but I think it'd change the tone of DBD a bit too much overall if it were just how the game worked by default.
Plus, it has the same issue as voice chat would - not everyone gets to use it. Access to a mic isn't a guarantee, and sharing a language is really not a guarantee.
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@CatFish said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/463986/good-first-steps-for-nerfing-blight
Or, you know, you could learn to play and counter him. While SWF can open the gates every game at the 2-minute (watch Hens's video) we don't need killer nerfs
Both Blight and the highest potential of generator speed builds need to be nerfed.
The major difference between them is that Blight, in general, is more common and more accessible than these specific forms of genrushing are.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
I would be fine with 110% and losing tokens on pallet break.
Not really losing all tokens on stun, that sounds terrible along with combination you walk slower…
If you want that against tunneling, it would rather be interesting change for DS to fully reset killer power.It's not just for tunnelling, it's also so pallets are something Blight at least conceptually needs to be worried about. Having to wait for your power to come back would make being stunned very undesirable, as opposed to a minor annoyance.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054920#Comment_4054920
Which is why the suggested changes above have a larger impact at higher levels of play. Doesn't matter what other changes you give him, 4.4m/s on its own simply kicks him down at places where he's already low.
I still don't really agree. Even if he is that bad on indoor maps, having a handful of bad maps in exchange for the second best power in the entire game isn't really a fail state.
Sure, if he really is that bad there, going forward it'd be good to try and address that without removing his weakness to indoor maps entirely… but in the meantime it's still a net positive. Blight's still far more fair overall to verse, and people still get to play the second strongest killer in the game on almost every map in the game.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054917#Comment_4054917
And conventional looping is only something lower skilled Blights do. You are unnecessarily increasing his skill floor while barely having an impact at his peak. Its basically giving a desk fan to somebody in the middle of the summer which wont do anything other than a incy tincy tiny breeze when its 30C+. But hey, on the cooler days it'll feel nice.
Well, yeah.
In a proper suite of changes that address Blight, some would be targeted at higher end problems and some would be targeted at lower end problems. Some would address the ways his skill floor can be low, and some would address the issues that arise at higher level play.
There's no one change that'll affect everything, he'd need multiple changes at once.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054910#Comment_4054910
Which I understand that, but he cant really use his power in indoor maps and that is basically the ONLY time where this change makes a proper impact. If we nerf Blight we should nerf him at his strongest, not his weakest.
It'd make the appropriate impact elsewhere too, it'd weaken his ability to fall back on conventional looping.
It's not a one stop shop quick fix to address Blight completely, but it'd be a sensible part of a suite of changes.
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@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054906#Comment_4054906
Im aware of how it works, but as i said it just gives more free braindead value for doing the most braindead thing, pre-drop, and thats something we need to not encourage anymore than it already is, which is why i suggested adding it to the pallet stun as an additional reward to incentivise survivors to play that way even more. I'd happily give a huge value reward for better plays like that than simply punishing a killer for simply kicking a pallet.
He is already "standardised" compared to other killers regarding pallets, its his power that is unique in this situation, and i think thats fine, his counterplay is simply different. Are we going to suggest power cooldowns for Lich, Spirit, dracula, singularity, wesker etc etc when they break pallets next who can do the exact same thing? Blight isnt anything special in this regard.
He's not standardised because his power grants him more.
I'm not saying other killers aren't capable of affecting the distance you get from them kicking a pallet, but very few are as threatening as Blight is. Lich and Dracula need to swap to the appropriate form and Lich has endlag after Fly, Spirit has to charge her power and has to put a bit of effort in towards tracking, etcetera.
They're all capable of catching back up quicker than default M1 walking… but so would Blight if he had to wait four seconds. Blight is just capable of threatening you again noticeably quicker than other killers.I'm also not saying losing tokens on kick is the only way of fixing this issue but at first glance it does feel like the best compromise for Blight players. The minor annoyance of waiting a few seconds after a pallet break seems better than actually weakening his power directly.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054899#Comment_4054899
Map dependency is something we should strive to move away from rather than make it a bigger issue.
You also have the issue that 4.4 would make little to no difference on anything other than indoor maps. As mentioned before, most tiles he can still use his power to play around, and the little distance he now does lose due to 4.4 might is negligible because he can still easily catch up.
That's the point. His power allows him to easily catch up, so he should have to use his power. That's kinda the whole point of a 4.4m/s killer to begin with- they have a power that lowers the effectiveness of distance, and in exchange, they are less good at looping without their power.
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@Shinkiro said:
Someone with actual logical thinking that agrees 4.4m/s is a garbage idea thank you!!! The people crying for his nerfs really have no clue… Anyway here's my feedback.
Rush count and token recharge are alright i dont mind it overall.
Add on pass and basekit blighted crows are great, being shoehorned into effectively only one addon choice sucks. Id definitely trade the rush token for the improved basekit.
Im okay with the pallet stun change, seems fair and i'd rather encourage looping and stunning than boring pre-drop slop.
I disagree with the pallet break change though, it feels garbage on ghoul and it'll feel garbage on blight too. It gives an incentive to pre-drop for even more free value than it gets now too which i dont like. If this had to exist, and i dont think it should, it should be tied to a stun instead atleast. That way it feels like they actually earned the distance given and encourages proper and more exciting gameplay more.
To the point about the pallet break, survivors are supposed to get distance if the killer stops to break a pallet, that's how it works. This isn't a new weakness that Blight would gain, it'd be standardising him so pallets give survivors what they are supposed to get if the killer stops to perform the break action on them.
Very few killers get to both kick a pallet and gain that distance back immediately. Power-based pallet breaks are a different matter, of course, but if the break action is performed there's supposed to be a standard level of value that gives.
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@colossusqw said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054901#Comment_4054901
Oh, i could see something like that working.
"Whenever you would come out of undetectable, you remain undetectable for an extra ten seconds, then this perk goes on cooldown for 40 seconds"Yeah, that'd work too, though I don't know how many binary Undetectable sources there are so the flat extension would probably be the same, functionally speaking?
Either way, simpler is better, so making it a flat number instead of token based would be better I think.
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@colossusqw said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054879#Comment_4054879
I know, the part about early undetectable is simply to give it some standalone value on any killer, like how lethal pursuer has early aura reads in case you are not going to run any aura perk. The "main effect" of lethal is it's synergy with aura reading, but they still put early aura read in specifically so the perk wouldn't be inert if used on its own.
Edit: to simplify, the important part is the stealth extension, like getting some leftover stealth when leaving pig's crouch or the shape's stalk mode
Not that I'm against your idea in the least, but for the record, this is backwards. Lethal Pursuer's main effect is seeing all the survivors at the start of the match, so you both have no downtime trying to find them (if that's something you struggle with) and can also pick the best chase right at the start.
The aura extension is something they added later to make it so the perk wasn't a dead slot after the very start of the match. The perk was still really strong before that because of the main effect.To the wider post though- I like it, but I think the secondary part could be simplified. Just have it increase timed Undetectable sources by +10 seconds, or something along those lines.
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Honestly I'm not sure I agree that's a particularly huge downside.
Map-based variation is something that's baked into most killer kits, and while there are certainly extreme ends that become unfun, to a degree it's an intentional weakness some killers have to offset their powerful strengths. I don't think it'd actually be damaging to Blight if five maps out of the game's total forty five are ones where he's slightly disadvantaged comparatively.
Killers like Hillbilly have worse map spreads than Blight would have at 4.4m/s and that doesn't immediately make them weak or unfun to play, they do just fine.
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A stacked Commodious is definitely too strong, especially with a supporting build. The issue I see is that just nerfing the numbers wouldn't really be satisfying and the runs the risk of making the item useless.
In my opinion, the repair speed bonus on toolboxes should be replaced with another effect of some kind. Finding the right one is probably going to be quite difficult, though.
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I think it's possible, but only at the tail end of a lot of work to get it there.
I do think queue times are a potential concern, but it's important to remember just having another mode in general isn't the only variable. Chaos Shuffle doesn't mess with queue times nearly as badly as 2v8 does, for example.
The concern I think is overstated is the notion that nobody would use ranked mode because they'd just go to casual mode to stomp on people. I don't think this really makes much sense unless the only assumption is that a ranked mode gets added in name only.
Realistically, even without the changes the rest of the game would need, ranked mode would have extra incentives that people do actually want. A visible MMR rank alone would draw in a lot of players, and if it's done properly there'd be some small but nice cosmetic rewards for achieving certain ranks, etcetera. I do think, genuinely, that a lot of the playerbase is competitively minded enough to use a ranked mode depending on implementation.The bigger obstacle in the way as I see it is that the game's balance just isn't tight enough for a ranked mode.
Take tunnelling, for example. Already a problem now, but in a game with a ranked/quick play divide it has absolutely no place. It's anti-competitive cheese, so would need to be restricted in ranked mode, and it's obviously not something anyone would want in quick play as you're either a survivor who doesn't want to sweat their ass off beating a chase stacked against you or you're a killer that, ostensibly, isn't so concerned with winning that you'd be taking those shortcuts to begin with.
So, tunnelling would need to be conclusively addressed in both modes (even if the implementation is different between modes), and it's not the only thing.
Toolboxes, excessive slugging, unhookable build shenanigans, slowdown stacking, solo queue's remaining disadvantages, these would all need fixing before even starting the work on building a proper ranked mode with carefully considered restrictions and supporting mechanics like a party finder and the like.
TL;DR, DBD isn't ready for a ranked mode yet, in my opinion. We inch closer every year, but we're not there yet.
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In my opinion, Skull Merchant needs to either be reverted to where she was pre-nerf so her actual issues can be fixed, or she needs to be fully moved to doing something else (again) that still retains her overall identity.
Half-measures aren't going to satisfy anyone that I can see. As someone who used to like playing Skull Merchant, I'll begrudgingly accept a third distinct power for her as long as it retains who she is, and doesn't just shift her to being a bland dash killer or pure ranged killer or something.
As long as she's still a stealth-tracking killer, I can stomach a second full rework.We just need to know what the devs are doing with her before we can comment, I think. Are they fixing current Merchant, or are they making a new one again? The previous Design Preview being scrapped was of course a good thing, and I'm not even saying the devs are dithering or anything, I just don't know what their goal is yet so it's hard to comment.
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Hmm…
I see the vision here, but I'm not sure if it's necessarily something Distortion needs. I could see that being very fair if you're, say, healing someone, but I don't know if it'd be fair if you're repairing a generator with someone, for example.
I'd probably say either make it healing only, or make this whole effect something another perk does instead.
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If you're struggling with the killer role, I hope you don't mind but I think I can give some quick tips. You might already know some of the things I'm going to discuss here, but it's best not to assume and try to cover all bases in my opinion!
So, I'll start by saying that the two unwanted strategies you talk about aren't on equal footing. Tunnelling is just a balance problem, yes, but slugging is - with notable exceptions - also a normal and healthy part of the game. This is most relevant when talking about survivors breaking hooks, because the answer to that is to quickly scan to see if there's another hook in range and, if not, drop that survivor on the ground.
Slugging that survivor in that scenario so you can chase the person who broke the hook is completely normal and even expected, anyone who sabotages hooks broadly expects the killer to try and drop the survivor they're carrying if they can. Sabotage can definitely be frustrating to play against at times, but just be patient- they'll either run out of toolbox charges or make a mistake and not get to the right hook in time eventually, and as long as you try and leave the survivor you're carrying on the ground, you're slowing the game down enough that you've got time to wait it out.Next I'll broadly touch on blinds- flashlights aren't as imposing as they appear at first, I assure you. A survivor who wants to blind you can't do it from anywhere on screen, they need to be in front of you with the right angle to shine the beam on your killer's eyes.
This means the most effective way of beating flashlight saves is to pick up facing a wall, so they can't get in front of you. However, if there isn't a wall available and you know what direction the flashlight survivor is coming from, just face the opposite direction- they usually don't have enough time to get around you for the blind if you do. If they start the blind late, look up once you gain control of your camera, that beats it too!If all else fails, there's always slugging. This + trying to beat pallet saves are more scenarios where slugging is completely acceptable. If you're worried about when slugging is fairly considered unacceptable, it's mostly downing everyone before picking everyone up, or trying to force survivors to die via bleedout while they're on the ground.
People might get mad at you for other things, but it's an online video game, that's inevitable. Can't please everyone.Finally, I'd like to touch on 12-hooking. This is a piece of rhetoric it's really easy to pick up, but it's not actually all that useful or helpful in this context.
The alternative to tunnelling isn't only and exclusively 12 spread out hooks on a perfect rotation. It only involves not chasing the person who was just unhooked; if you're in the area for the unhook, chase the unhooker, but you should really try not to be in the area for the unhook and be chasing a third survivor instead because that damages the team's generator efficiency more.I'll make this as brief as I can, but the basics of "pressure" for the killer role in DBD is the following idea: Every second you spend not engaging a survivor is four seconds of potential generator repair, so try and keep survivors engaged. The easiest + most broadly applicable version of this across all killers is to have one survivor on the hook, one survivor in chase, and a third survivor peeling off to go save the one on the hook, leaving only one survivor able to do generators. There are more high-level versions of this (and versions that are just more specific to specific killers), but that's the basics.
To help facilitate this, I heavily recommend using information perks so you know exactly where to go after a hook, they're very very useful.
Happy to clarify on anything I might have not conveyed well, too!
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@Roco45 said:
Why are DBD players so obsessed with trying to force other people to play with them. OP's suggestion would make games 10000% more miserable on both sides and really, BHVR should let Survs see eachothers perk/item loadout with all names being anon until the end of the match screen. Imagine Killers, with the system OP suggests you wouldn't be able to equip certain perks based on what items the Survs are bringing.
Lobby dodging messes with the matchmaking, which is why it's bad and needs to be reduced.
Outside of that context it's just a bit annoying and something people do for silly reasons, but not a huge issue. The fact that it messes up the matchmaking is the main problem.
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@tubalcane said:
Tunneling has a natural defense, it's called looping. You already have basekit anti-camp, anti-loop, lots of perks to help you, windows and pallets everywhere etc etc. The devs have WAY better stuff they should be working on instead of something that has natural counters. Some killers have to tunnel just to keep it fair after all the free-rides survivors are getting now.
Not to put you on blast too hard here, but I feel the two halves of your point here can't possibly both be true at once?
If tunnelling has natural, realistic, reliable counters, surely killers wouldn't be able to use it to keep up and level the playing field against supposedly unfair survivor benefits.
If tunnelling is seen as an answer to all the heat survivors have, doesn't that imply that it's a tool on the same level? If it's balanced and fair, it wouldn't be able to level the playing field against things that aren't balanced and fair, right?
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I'd probably pick Wraith.
He's broadly good without being a top tier, which is about where you'd be looking for the "most balanced" in a game like this. He's reasonably versatile without excelling at anything, having a bit of stealth, a bit of anti-loop, a bit of mobility, etc. He's not really screwed over by which map you load in on (at least insofar as his power specifically, not counting maps that suck universally for all killers), he has a very solid spread of addons, and he's reasonably versatile when it comes to what perks he wants to run.
He's capable of performing at higher levels but requires effort to do so, rewarding character specialists without being inaccessibly difficult.
He's kind of a perfect midpoint for a lot of the things you'd measure in a discussion like this.
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@CrypticGirl said:
... How has no one mentioned jesterkind yet? 😮
@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052469#Comment_4052469
Ah, fair point. @jesterkind definitely belongs in the Iconic category, if not legendary
Aw, I appreciate that!
I figure I should nominate someone in turn, so I'd say @Rulebreaker is a pretty iconic and memorable member of our little community here. Def deserves a shoutout.
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@Elan said:
Aura = less regression. No point in incentiving more regression perks. You can run fog vial, distortion, extraordinary perception or avoid auras in locker. There is enough fighting back and that's why aura perks are not very popular, to the point where i would make BBQ and nowhere to hide basekit.
It's nice to have options, and aside from Spine Chill, all of the options I'm talking about already exist- I just don't think they're in the best place they can be.
It won't hurt killer aura reading too much for there to be options, as long as none of those options are too good individually. It just changes which kinds of auras are being answered and how.
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@OrangeBear said:
I feel like the problem with Off The Record and post hook stealth in general is that mobility killers aren't as affected by it. You can quickly follow a possible path as a mobility killer and get line of sight of the unhooked survivor meanwhile most killers if they don't see anything at the hook, they have to go somewhere else. I think this is why Elusive off hook didn't get through, and why scratch marks were removed from Off The Record.
I think it's current iteration is pretty bad though, sadly. Since i don't feel like the game favours stealth currently, i don't know how this perk should be adjusted.The point of post-unhook stealth isn't always to avoid someone trying to tunnel you.
One of the best use cases of old OTR's aura blocking, prior to the duration nerf, was to go reset and sit on a generator without getting sniped by a random BBQ or Gearhead proc. That combined with being able to more easily stealth away from gens because you don't leave scratch marks or make any grunts of pain combined to a pretty good stealth perk. Not crazy, there are better dedicated picks, but for a perk that's primarily anti-tunnel it's genuinely not bad.
OTR is definitely not weak at the moment, though. If nothing else it's a very serviceable anti-tunnel perk. I just think it could be better at its other job without making its more obnoxious tendencies any worse.
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Leverage could definitely be adjusted again for sure.
Though, if all you want is just a good anti-heal option, I really can't recommend Gift of Pain/Weeping Wounds enough. The actual slowdown is only secondary, it's a perk that punishes survivors for healing up immediately and is a direct counter to Resurgence because of it.
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I don't really think Dramaturgy or Finesse really need changes, personally. They're definitely powerful, but I think they're reasonably well limited for what they offer, I don't really mind them too much.
Sprint Burst and Vigil are definitely strong enough that it wouldn't be entirely insane to consider nerfing them, though, for sure.
Vigil's easy enough, you can just lower the % number and/or change what it affects (I personally don't think it should affect Exposed), but I think Sprint Burst is a tricky one to nerf.
If you just lower the Haste percentage or the duration, you run the risk of making it just not feel good to use, which isn't ideal. Maybe giving it a longer Exhaustion timer would be a good direction to look?