jesterkind
jesterkind
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@supersonic853 said:
I do think sprint bursts exhaustion should be the longest because of how easy use it is and how hard it punishes m1s compared to dash killers. And with vigil being what it is rn plus other stuff like ghost notes. Exhaustion could be higher.
I'm not thinking of the Exhaustion timer itself here, more the percentage and duration of the Haste effect. That's the part if I'm wondering should be different between the different perks based on their accessibility.
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As others have said, the available evidence doesn't support the idea of BHVR only balancing around spreadsheet numbers.
In fact, there's a good simple example of this in action— you bring up the idea of killers with high killrates getting no changes or nerfed when that isn't appropriate, but the two poster children for the difference between killrate and strength are Nurse with a low killrate and obscene strength + Pig with a high killrate and (historically) low strength.
Well, Nurse has been nerfed a handful of times (including this PTB, albeit only via addons) and Pig's been buffed multiple times over the past few years.
The devs do understand the limitations of data, it seems. Whether they make the right decision in any given circumstance after that point is subjective, of course, but there's just no reason to think they only look at spreadsheets.
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@Snazzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4071915#Comment_4071915
Calling it a “looping issue” completely ignores how much aura stacking is warping the game right now.
Looping is supposed to rely on uncertainty and mind games, but constant aura reading just removes that entire layer of gameplay. Survivors are effectively pre located before chases even start, so it stops being about being outplayed and becomes more about being repeatedly revealed until a down is basically guaranteed.
Saying survivors should just “run counters” honestly just proves the point. If multiple perk slots are required just to not be constantly tracked, that isn’t counterplay, it’s just a tax on basic gameplay that shouldn’t exist in the first place.
It also gets even more ridiculous on already strong killers. Ghoul in particular becomes far more oppressive when paired with stacked aura reading, because it completely removes downtime and turns matches into nonstop forced interactions with very little room to reset or breathe.
From solo queue especially, it’s just heavily one-sided since there’s no coordination to offset constant reveals, so you’re essentially always at a disadvantage for no real reason.
That’s why it should be nerfed. Not small adjustments, but actual hard limits on how frequently aura reading can be applied, because right now it removes too much uncertainty from the game entirely. At minimum, all aura reading perks should operate on a token system so information isn’t handfed to the killer for free with no effort required, so survivors actually get a fair chance to play the game properly.
I'm not sure I see the link between being revealed before the chase starts, and that reveal making being downed too quick.
If the aura read isn't active during the chase, surely the time to down would be completely unaffected? It might cut out time searching for survivors, but good killers aren't going to be searching for survivors regardless of aura reads being in play, they're going to be tracking + heading straight for survivors.
Looping itself isn't really affected by aura reading as a class because only a handful of aura perks actually activate during chase, and most of those have been in the game for a while, like I'm All Ears. The perks actually being cited in these conversations, like BBQ, Nowhere To hide, Friends Til The End, etcetera, these aren't the chase aura perks and shouldn't be affecting your chases outside of making them start sooner than they might otherwise have.This is why I don't personally see the need for hard limits on aura reading as a mechanic, because it really isn't having that kind of impact overall. Individual perks can be tuned down, for sure, but as a class aura reading is in a pretty good spot- all I'd really suggest is more counter-pick perks for people who care about them, but it's not as though you need to counter-pick aura perks. You can do just fine by running general chase perks or information perks of your own, or just by reacting when the killer comes for you.
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@Trex_Crazy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4071868#Comment_4071868
As for why bother; so we can stop using the soloq excuse for buffing survivors or doing some weird things with revealing what killer it is halfway into a match. When they could be idk, working on making the game more enjoyable/less buggy.
What makes you say that, exactly?
As I said, from my perspective voice chat doesn't help solo queue. If the goal is to fix that role's issues, voice chat isn't just not the best option, it isn't an option at all.
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Honestly, I think the counterargument is as simple as most aura perks on most killers not really being that much of an issue.
There are definitely good and strong aura perks, but there aren't that many which provide too outsized of a benefit- they can direct you to a chase, or give some limited edge within a chase, but they're all held in check by their requirements, timers, counters, and so on.
I'd go so far as to say the only problematic aura reading perk I can think of off the top of my head is probably just Nowhere To Hide, since it following the killer instead of being tied to the generator makes it really powerful on a fairly good chunk of the roster.
Anything else is a killer by killer basis and in most of those cases it's the killer being too good, not the perk.
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I obviously can't speak for the development team, but personally I'd argue that it isn't just that it's money to implement and moderate, it's also that there isn't much of a benefit.
Voice chat obviously wouldn't benefit the majority of SWFs much, if they're capable of using voice chat they're probably already using Discord or another third party system.
Voice chat also doesn't benefit solo queue that much overall, since a lot of variables have to align before you're actually able to use voice chat with strangers - language barrier is the biggest thing to consider, but there's also willingness to use a mic, actually owning a mic, noise pollution from other people in your vicinity while playing, and so on.
On top of all of that, it also opens up new avenues for toxicity and harassment, which is a pretty major negative to compare the benefits against- and since there isn't really much in the way of benefits to begin with, that makes it a pretty noticeable element overall.The better question to ask, genuinely and not as a rhetorical question, is why bother implementing VC in the first place.
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@gerolau said:
"What do you think? Would you like to run like a 2020 survivor again?"
Survivors are the ones who had a different running animation, I don't know what you're trying to imply here?
To the wider topic: I think the 10th anniversary coming up would be a fantastic opportunity for a limited time "classic DBD" mode, but personally I do think it should include the old balance as well. It seems like a bunch of work for just some aesthetic differences, but it wouldn't be an outright bad idea or anything.
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There are two answers to survivors going for sabotage if we assume no preparation through perks (which is reasonable!), and I'll go over the lesser answer first.
First, just walk to another hook. I bring this up mostly for the sake of being thorough, but honestly in my experience you can do that more often than you'd think, hook density is pretty solid overall these days. The survivor crouches by one hook, you veer off to another.
Second, and more pressing, is slugging. What BHVR have actually made clear, in my opinion, is that they don't want multiple people left on the ground for extended periods of time as a straight alternative to hooking.
What they do want, or at least accept is a legitimate part of the game, is limited situational slugging to answer specific scenarios; this is evident in how they designed the 9.2.0 and 9.3.0 PTB anti-slug to give the killer a lot of leeway to slug when someone's under a pallet with a teammate nearby or when the survivors are going for sabotage plays like we're discussing here.I think where a lot of people trip up here is that they assume the survivor you drop being picked up means the counterplay was ineffective, but you're still immobilising that one survivor and you're still occupying the one who got the sabotage; it only works out purely in the survivors' favour if that sabotage causes their teammate to wiggle off and both players run away to safety.
That's not to say I wouldn't like to see anything done with sabotaging, I think some of the options available are a little too strong + I think it'd be healthier if the killer could properly anticipate it via sabotage toolboxes being separate items with separate models to repair ones, but the counterplay works out in my opinion.
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To be fair, strength and killrate aren't necessarily paired one-to-one like that.
Overall killrate data is going to be swayed by a lot of factors, like newer/inexperienced players, the accumulated weight of fluke games, people messing around, people playing drunk, people throwing on purpose, etcetera. That's not to say the data is useless, but that it isn't a linear "strength goes up with killrate and vice versa" number.
Blight isn't getting nerfed for having a high killrate, he's getting nerfed because he's incredibly strong. Not everyone is able to play him to his highest strength or to even unlock most of his strength, and not everyone is approaching every match with the intent to do that, but he's still incredibly strong.
I wouldn't be too worried or frustrated, though. What we've seen are minor nerfs that shouldn't hurt him too bad, just reduce his ability to cheese hits.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067596#Comment_4067596
It's not that the perk is at its strongest when you spread hooks, though.
Sorry I can't get past this claim. It's absolutely at it's strongest with spreading hooks.
At least with tunneling, there's a slim chance of removing it from the game if only one person brings it. If multiple bring it, then your claim is a bit more believable. And even then, with 2 in play, you want to try and remove those two ASAP. And killer can't really guess who has it at any given time unless they see a gen jump in progress visually.
I mean heck, even at it's weakest, permanent gen repair is FAR more valuable than haste and vault/hook speed because those also rely on map RNG.Those two sentences are linked. I think it's the wrong way around to say it's strongest when spreading hooks.
I think phrasing it that it's weaker when the killer tunnels is more appropriate. That puts it in line with most survivor perks, which is appropriate because it correctly identifies tunnelling as the source of the difference. Tunnelling is a problem, and part of how that problem manifests is that it invalidates or harshly weakens a lot of survivor options.
What's relevant to Fast Track in particular is how strong that stronger situation is, not that tunnelling weakens it. Tunnelling weakens most things.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067594#Comment_4067594
It's kinda hard not to say that when the perk is at it's strongest when you DO spread hooks. Plenty of people pointed that out in the PTB.
It's not redundant at all when it's the reason I'm getting so much value in my matches. Again, a majority of my losses using this perk is because I get tunneled out before I can get value. It's strongest is when I'm left alone and the killer spreads hooks.
It's not saying the devs intentionally made it this way, at least that's not what I'm implying, I'm saying it's an oversight in perk design and should have been considered.It's not that the perk is at its strongest when you spread hooks, though.
It's that the perk is weaker when the killer employs the game's biggest balance problem against it.
Framing it like that is I think helpful because it illustrates how redundant this is— of course tunnelling beats it, tunnelling is a huge problem. Tunnelling beats most things. There are completely legitimate and healthy tools that are beaten by tunnelling, that are also at their strongest when the killer spreads hooks by extension, which don't get talked about in this way.
The issue isn't that Fast Track is at its strongest when the killer isn't doing one specific thing, the issue would be that the perk is just too strong at its strongest. That's why comparing it to things like Fire Up and Batteries Included is important- the major important distinction between them is that Fire Up and Batteries Included aren't particularly incredible, and Fast Track is (as far as I can tell) a lot stronger.
Stronger than it should be for its activation requirement, maybe. That seems like a fair discussion to have, I think, but it isn't relevant to that discussion that it's weaker when the killer tunnels. At least in my opinion, anyway.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067587#Comment_4067587
Except the main issue is we need to discuss how the perk effects both spreading hooks and tunneling.
If you spread hooks, you have players like me who slap a gen for up to 18% un-regressable progress per full stacks. Even at 2 hooks, I'm doing 12%. BNP is 9% for clarity's sake. And this can happen multiple times a match with just this one perk in the game.
If I get tunneled out, the killer has to hope I run into deadzones or play tiles wrong because the others can do gens as normal, or risk someone else having this perk as well since survivors can run 4 of these at max between all of them. So, on the off chance all 4 have the perk and I get tunneled, that's still 6% per survivor, per hook.
And the only activation is a great skill check. Which is not hard to get at all.
As for other perks that share a similar concept:
Batteries Included: Sure, it activates when a gen is done and gives haste, but only near a gen within 16m. That's the drawback.
Fire Up: I really hope I don't have to ever compare fire up to Fast Track. If I do, I'll do it on request.
Desperate Measures: A good perk that gets better the more survivors that are injured, but not game breaking because it's healing isn't the best when it's by itself, it's only much better with things like Botony. It's not shaving the overall speed of the game, just healing which is another touchy subject when it comes to healing speed.
And the only other survivor perk I can think of with a similar concept is Autodidact, and even then that's stretching it because it's only comparison is token gains, so it's hardly even comparable but I'm lacking any other survivor side perk like these. And let's be real, Autodidact players are based and nobody should have a problem with that perk.
Now, that said, I still believe this perk could be fine if it had a max cap of 10 tokens and you gain 5 tokens every time the killer hooks someone consecutively. There may need to be a grace period in case a survivor is attempting to throw, but if we're talking about balancing the game away from tunneling, this would be something to consider.The problem with discussing how it affects tunnelling is that it can lead to the road of going "well if survivors have [x] I'll just tunnel", which isn't exactly helpful or constructive.
It also can lead to asking why the devs would design a perk that encourages tunnelling, which has happened a few times in this thread. This is a misread - the devs designed a perk around the entire game, not around one specific balance problem they've actively been trying to fix - that comes from including tunnelling in the conversation when it doesn't really have a place there.
It's just redundant to say that the massively unbalanced issue of tunnelling is less affected by Fast Track, or any perk for that matter. Of course it is, it's massively unbalanced. That doesn't mean tunnelling is actually relevant to this specific perk more than any other, though, there's nothing to be gained from including it in the discussion beyond acknowledging that, like with many other scenarios, tunnelling also excels here.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067583#Comment_4067583
Well if you're assuming killers are spreading hooks, we're not playing the same game.
Second, no perk shaves gen progress permanently for playing in a way the community wants without some form of drawback or counter. That's why this perk is problematic. I gen constant BNP value multiple times a match by me running it alone. If others run it, it's even worse.
I actually don't see a reason NOT to run it if you can get GSC's consistently, or with stake out. I even dropped hyperfocus for sprint burst and it's even more consistently getting me wins.I'm not assuming killers are spreading hooks. I'm saying that when we discuss perk strength + balance, then we should assume killers are spreading hooks for the purposes of that discussion.
It's not that we want killers to spread hooks, it's that spreading hooks is the video game and ways of avoiding it are balance problems. It at best just muddies the conversation to bring up things like tunnelling here, it's not undesirable gameplay we're trying to encourage players away from, it's a balance problem that needs to be fixed.
As for the last part, fair enough. I consider that part of the perk's specific strength and implementation over the general design, but that's clearly personal preference so fair dos.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067580#Comment_4067580
That's the entire reason it's too strong.
Again, the perk design itself is the issue. I even agree with people that this could easily be retooled to be an anti-tunnel perk, but you get the max value due to spreading hooks.
I've been constantly running this perk, and the only time I haven't won is when I get tunneled. That's not a coincidence.The reason I personally do not like this framing is because if we're talking about a game of DBD, we should assume the killer is spreading hooks. If they aren't spreading hooks, what they're doing is its own balance problem that needs its own discussions and solutions.
If a perk is too strong when spreading hooks, that just means the perk is reasonably guaranteed to be too strong. It's a basic fundamental part of the game to spread pressure around by keeping multiple survivors occupied, any discussion about perks should assume that the killer is playing the game properly, at least in my opinion.
Plus, as I've said before, many perks share this design and they don't get this discourse because the design isn't the problem. Perks that activate based on your opponent's objective progression have been in the game for years and most are regarded as weak, not punishing and problematic.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067281#Comment_4067281
Thank you for making sense of this. This is what I keep saying, the perk is far too punishing for spreading hooks, something I THOUGHT everyone here wanted.
But clearly the votes are wrong, we don't want spreading hooks?For the record, I do not agree that the perk is too punishing "for spreading hooks". I think that last part is at best unnecessary/redundant phrasing, and at worst can form mindsets that are deeply unhelpful + push the discourse away from anything constructive while building up an "us vs them" victim mentality.
If the perk is too strong, it's just too strong. "Spreading hooks" shouldn't come into it.
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Welcome to the forums!
Hope you enjoy your stay :3
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067010#Comment_4067010
The problem is none of the perks you mentioned are permanent for doing your objective. New Fast Track would be more akin to killer getting permanent charges on each gen every time they get a hook, or permanent hindered for every down.
Edit: MOST of the perks you mentioned aren't permanent. And even still, only Fire Up is afaik and let's be real, anyone who thinks Fire Up = Fast Track, you need to play more killer.There are a couple permanent ones, but what I'm more interested in is further down where you say none of the other perks are as strong as Fast Track.
Now, I can't play at the moment so I have no opinion on the strength of new Fast Track, but if it's too strong… that's the issue. It's not that its design punishes spreading hooks (because plenty of perks activate based on objective progression and they aren't deemed problematic in that way), the perk is just generally too good at what it does.
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I'd heavily contest the idea that hooks don't do very much, they're the killer's best source of pressure/slowdown.
To the overall topic though, I think it's probably a combination of a few factors leading to it being kinda unpopular.
StB is an altruistic anti-tunnel perk, and those just aren't very popular overall; if you're spending a perk slot to protect against the killer tunnelling, most people are going to bring perks that protect themselves instead of their teammates, regardless of strength.
Additionally, it requires some degree of coordination and trust in your teammates to use effectively, so the average solo queue player probably isn't going to want to take that gamble in particular.
The risk associated with the Exposed effect doesn't help, but honestly I don't think that's the main thing standing in the way of this perk being popular.
On top of that… it's honestly not quite as good as it might seem on paper. Its best case scenario is game-swinging, definitely, but there are a myriad of small ways it can break in a different direction. On top of that, it's also a hard anti-tunnel perk and doesn't do anything if the killer isn't tunnelling- compared to something like, say, Babysitter or Off The Record, both of which do have some useful effects when the killer isn't tunnelling.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066912#Comment_4066912
I have to agree.
Sure, people already tunnel for no reason, but perk design like this only PUNISH those of us who don't tunnel. Where's the logic?I think I can take a stab at explaining the logic, sincerely.
In a regular match of DBD, one that doesn't go off the rails from minute one, you can reliably guarantee to see certain things happen. Someone will be chased, some generators will be done, and someone will be hooked. Even one sided stomps tend to have these things happen unless they're really lopsided.
Because these things are not optional, they are required parts of a match in progress, they're seen as neutral activation triggers for certain perks, on both sides.Survivors have perks for doing their objective by finishing gens… but so do killers, with perks like Bitter Murmur, Batteries Included, Cruel Limits, etcetera.
Killers have perks for progressing towards their objective by getting hooks… but so do survivors, with perks like Kindred, Dead Hard, We'll Make It, etcetera.
Because these triggers aren't optional and will happen in a regular match, the perks that use them aren't punishing whichever side for doing their objective, they're just perks that activate based on expected match progression.
Both sides have them and this kind of perk never catches any flak unless one of them happens to be too good in and of itself, which is the actual issue with any actually problematic perk that uses one of these triggers. -
I definitely think Singularity is in the running.
It's a different kind of mechanical effort than something like a Billy curve, but the amount of sheer mechanical effort you have to put in to use that power effectively is truly head and shoulders above most other killers in my opinion. Being able to keep track of every angle and position of every pod you've placed is far beyond my capability, at the very least, I'm always impressed by a good Singularity.
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To be fair to BHVR, some of the weaker killers do actually get changes.
Back around when I was newer to the game, the weakest killers in the game were Trapper, Legion, Freddy, Ghostface, and Myers, plus Trickster when he was added (which was the first PTB I was around for, fun fact).
While Trapper's still firmly one of the weakest in the game, all the rest of those have seen significant changes. The new weakest crop in my opinion are Trapper, Skull Merchant, Sadako, and Ghostface (since his changes didn't really elevate him as much imo)— outside Trapper there's only one repeat and the other two didn't even exist when I started playing.
It's a fair criticism to say BHVR move very slowly when it comes to buffing the weaker killers (and also when it comes to nerfing the strongest ones) but it does happen.
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@MelodyCollective said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065127#Comment_4065127
My problem comes from the fact that there is recorded evidence of builds using BNP, Fast Track and specialist to remove 50% required charges from a gen, and in spooknjukes own words, "We played for 2 hours and didn't lose once that entire time" and even turned MULTIPLE rounds from a loss into a win by doing that build. I've experienced this myself multiple times against swfs all running fast track and other perm charge perks, all it takes is 3 hook stages to get all 9 charges on Fast Track which just kind of punches you in the groin especially early game. I literally ONLY want the perk to give less charges on hooks and I would be more than fine with it that way.
I guess I'll have to watch the video, but I think that anecdote might be proving my suspicions.
A toolbox is already involved, so that's a big red flag, if you take the toolbox out of the equation the build plummets in effectiveness.
I'm suspect about any build with Specialist in it being that good as well, considering the downtime involved in charging that perk. It's not impossible though, for sure.
Like I said above, I'm basically wondering how much of this build is accounted for by toolboxes and not Fast Track.
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So, I can't play right now (RIP to my PC :( ) but I have been around for previous instances of new gen speed builds, so I think it's worth asking a question as a quick sanity check:
Is Fast Track actually the problematic part of those builds?
The last one of these that I was around for was the Stranger Things Teamwork perks, and categorically they weren't the problematic part of those builds. Those perks, together, give one person the equivalent of Prove Thyself; the crazy co-op gen speed builds people were showing off were already possible and largely due to either toolboxes, or just the fact that co-op gen speeds can be kinda fast in a vacuum as long as you don't factor in travel time, opportunity cost, or the risk factor of the killer regressing more of the team's efforts at once with single perk procs.
I'm engaging in good faith here, I genuinely cannot test if Fast Track is the problem here. I just want that concept involved in the discussion because it seems important.
Though, speaking to Fast Track specifically, I do think people often overlook that you the killer are also gaining objective progress while Fast Track is in play. Hypothetically, if one person shaved off half a gen's progress but in exchange you have the entire rest of the team on death hook, it kinda doesn't matter much at that point, right?
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Hotline Miami.
Jacket as the survivor, of course, and for the killer… Richard.
The idea of Jacket being both the killer and the survivor is so interesting that I'd be entirely down for it despite the tone not really fitting DBD.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063767#Comment_4063767
Info on the opposite side of the map as a low-mid tier killer isn't going to accomplish much unless you so happen to line up the timing within hooking a survivor which at that point… bbq is better. Infectious would be better in some cases even. It's just TOO niche compared to hovering around a slug. when someone else want's to stay nearby. Especially on indoor maps where they can just disappear off to narnia.
The goal of auras in this situation isn't to get you into a chase, it's to improve your macro knowledge. It's the same reason that Gearhead is a good perk- it lets you know what generators are being worked on, and where the survivor's attentions are generally directed.
The best use of auras is to get you into a chase, but that doesn't mean it's the only use. Knowing what's going on is also very useful.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/465125/daily-reminder
Daily reminder that Residual Manifest encourages tunneling.
How do you mean?
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I do wonder these days if DS in particular is no longer the best anti-tunnel tool. It's still quite good against most killers if what you want is to buy more time, but if what you want is for the killer to stop tunnelling you I don't know how good it can fairly be said to be.
At this stage, if you're the sort of person to already run Sprint Burst or Lithe, I wonder if Blood Rush might not be the better anti-tunnel tool. Two Sprint Bursts in a row will get a lot of killer players to drop chase, I'd imagine.
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To be fair, Residual Manifest has an effect that doesn't require rummaging a chest, so that one is doing pretty fine overall.
This would be a nice buff for most of the chest-searching perks, though. Really, I'd argue what's needed more is to have more chests on the map, but this'd help too.
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It's definitely a good idea, there's not really any good reason not to pursue something at least similar to this.
I could see a full binary "if hooked survivor, then aura on other survivors" being a bit too good/handholdy, but a ten to twelve second long aura read so everyone can get a feel both for where their teammates are and to see who makes the move to leave their gen and go save would be very appropriate.
DBD's solo queue operates at a deficit not just compared to SWF, but compared to solo queue in other games. Some basic information measures like this to help bring it up to par would be good for everyone in the long run.
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Not that I disagree this game could use better reward structures - I've been mulling over ideas for it myself - but I do disagree with part of the reasoning here.
The idea that players with a thousand hours are still noobs is a really harmful falsehood, in my opinion. There are angles from which that can be true and even constructive - for example, this game is dense enough that just having upwards of a hundred hours doesn't INHERENTLY mean you actually know anything if you aren't actively trying to learn - but it gets sanded down into a generalised 'you need X many thousands of hours to get past noob' statement that I would argue is just flat untrue.
DBD is dense, yes, but it's never struck me as substantially moreso than the average fighting game or MOBA. I think it's only really all that dense in comparison to the average FPS game? But that might just be that I don't have much experience with shooters these days. Gone are my teenage years playing Black Ops on my beat up Ps3…
"Get good" is never useful advice in any game, but the useful variants on it where you give constructive advice on what to improve, how to improve it, and why you'd want to do so, that all absolutely applies to DBD, it really isn't THAT complicated.
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@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062906#Comment_4062906
Why would i engage in what's obviously going to be a dishonest conversation?
For the record, I am also curious about that and was about to ask before seeing the other response.
Sincerely, in good faith, I'm not sure what changes you're referring to either.
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@Ragna_Rock said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062794#Comment_4062794
This is not an action game, if this was a symmetrical game I would say a parry mechanic in a pvp game can be good BUT that's usually in a symmetrical game where normally its either a normal thing all can do (Like Deadlock) or an ability for a specific character (Like Genji in Overwatch).
The counterplay for this perk is waiting… in a asymmetrical horror game playing as horror icons and monster from other worlds you have to wait before you can swing, why? A perk so impactful you can fake it and still get value, killers still hesitate to swing when a surv runs at them because of it.
Anyway the "skill" component of the perk is not the point you absolutely get it for losing the killer has to down you and hook you while you get a free health state despite the fact your the one getting out played why should you get rewarded for that while the killer is the one who had to sink time into advancing their objective and the one who lost the chase gets a 3rd health state for it? How is that fair?
Couple things-
To the point about the parry, I'm less saying it's a great idea for DBD and more pointing out that it's not just "a health state", which I think is a distinction that does matter quite a bit here.
Additionally, the counterplay for DH is baiting it, not waiting it. Flicking your camera up to fake a swing, starting a power animation but cancelling where applicable, etcetera. Killers with really telegraphed special attacks have a harder time with this, but most have a way of actively baiting a DH.
Finally, being downed and hooked isn't losing or failing inherently, the game is designed around that being inevitable. The point of a chase is to last as long as possible before being downed, not to avoid being downed outright. Dead Hard activating when you're hooked is just it being gated by match progression, not it being a reward for losing.
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@Ragna_Rock said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062754#Comment_4062754
Investigate the map? Go and see what has spawned ahead of time to so you know and I don't even mean like the whole map just the immediate area so you have an idea where to go.
If you get caught off guard by a stealth killer than that's it, he out played you and got the drop on you.
Your analogy does not work here because the killer is supposed to be an unstoppable force you don't 1v1 the killer only buy time.
What dynamic does Dead Hard shift? You get a free health state from losing all that does is reward bad play.
But this still does not answer the main question. Should you get an extra health state for losing?
I know I'm not the person you're responding to, but I would like to weigh in if you don't mind.
I think saying Dead Hard is an extra health state for losing isn't really accurate, personally. You aren't losing just because you got hooked, for starters, but more pressingly what Dead Hard does is give you a parry.
You aren't guaranteed to actually get to tank that hit, it's completely up to circumstance. Some killers it's very reliable, others it'll work once at most, there are smart and dumb ways of playing around it on both sides, etcetera.You can whiff a Dead Hard and it just gets you downed, ditto for the killer successfully baiting it. On the design front, I think DH is pretty reasonably well designed, at least if you aren't looking at the killers who have a harder time baiting it like Huntress.
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I don't know about should, but I think they easily could.
What we have so far spans the first two eras of Resident Evil, the OG era represented by Nemesis and the middle era represented by Wesker. If they went for the third, modern era of DBD with something like a Jack Baker or a Lady Dimitrescu as the killer, that'd definitely work out.
I imagine we will definitely be getting more RE content of some kind after Requiem did so well, but it may just be skins. I'd be down for that, we inch closer and closer to getting an Alex Wesker or Moira Burton skin…
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Huh, I can't believe I didn't notice that.
I'd have said they might've just needed an old build of the game for old maps, but there are builds that have the newer UI that would've worked. Maybe an oversight, maybe some kind of teaser?
An "Old DBD" limited mode for the anniversary would be neat, for example.
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I'd worry Eruption might become too good if it's just flat buffed, so I'd sooner look at a rework of some sort to make it a bit smoother to use.
Maybe something in the vein of kicking generators with it active not applying direct regression, but in exchange the delayed explosion takes off more progress + the scream and aura is in a radius instead of just being whoever's actively repairing at the time?
Just spitballing there.@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062336#Comment_4062336
That’s not exactly a fair take. You can stack gen speeds perks and toolboxes.
Eruption could use some love mostly do to how it affects the 8 gen kick limit.
To be fair, toolboxes stacked with things is currently a gigantic problem, so I think it's fair to say it just cuts both ways there.
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@zonkednb said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062085#Comment_4062085
Are you me, dude?
It wasn't even because I thought it was better to just run in a straight line, I was just so panicked. Those first few games are really when DBD shows off it is a horror experience.
And I had the exact same misconception about exposed. More the fool me for not reading tooltips back then, but it seems so intuitive that 'exposed' meant visible. Aura reading is something even a new player will have seen before so putting two and two together seems inevitable.Ha, definitely, I think it's a pretty common experience.
Good thing there ARE tooltips now, at least, I was flying more blind as a newer player back then. Really illuminates how far the game's come, I think.
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Oh man, I've got a few from when I was newer.
When I was brand new at survivor, I'd consistently run myself to the edge of the map instead of actually using any resources, that's definitely a big one.
On killer, it's not so much a mistake but it is a fairly amusing misunderstanding: I thought NOED was a completely nonfunctional perk because I thought Exposed meant aura reading, and got put out when it didn't show me everyone's aura at the end of the match haha
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062075#Comment_4062075
people just take it as a given that tunnelling is worth fixing
No they dont. You think its a given. Most people accept tunneling isnt going anymore this debate has been going on for years. your just late to the party.
There's a fairly large degree to which it doesn't
matterin this context whether they think it's OP or unhealthy for more fun-related reasons.No, in no case is the reason for a nerf irrelevant. That makes no sense.
If I say pallets are a problem but don’t explain why they’re a problem, what value does that claim have? Without the reasoning, the concern itself becomes meaningless.
The reason behind a nerf request is the entire point of the discussion. If you want something changed, you need to explain what the actual problem is. And he did.
There's no repackaging or reframing, there's no sneaky indirect changes to try and avoid saying the issue outright
As i said not accusing OP of it but it does happen, because the "tunneling is OP" argument is exhausted.
Nitpicking the word "lame" to get mad at it isn't constructive either way
So now your trying to reframe this entire thing as me being mad at the word lame. Lol.
I've been here a while, my friend, I'm not late to the party. Tunnelling hasn't fundamentally changed in years, and yes, when talking about that fact a lot of people do take it as a given that it's a problem.
Not to sound rude, genuinely, but at this stage it sounds a bit more like you personally don't think tunnelling is a problem and don't like seeing it discussed like it is? That's not an accusation, that's just how you're coming across, if it isn't accurate that's fairly relevant.
Moving on, when I say the reasoning isn't relevant I mean strictly when it comes to evaluating a specific change for this specific issue. Which of the two broad schools of thought there are regarding tunnelling as an issue specifically would be relevant for some of the nuances, but they also have a pretty fair amount of overlap- either way, you can evaluate the specific change being suggested, regardless of which reasoning you favour.
The only way you wouldn't is if you disagree with both schools of thought, which would obviously be its own matter.As for the word lame, you do keep bringing it up and always in a negative light, so I have to assume not liking that phrasing is important to your position.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062072#Comment_4062072
The sticking point for me here is that this
isarguing the tunnelling point directly.You’re being purposely vague just to keep a weak argument going. What tunneling point are you even referring to?
OP’s point was simple: tunneling off the unhook notification is “lame.” He never said it was OP.
At most, he’s implying it’s toxic or unhealthy gameplay — not that it’s overpowered.
But nerfing something just because you personally find it “lame” doesn’t make any sense from a balance perspective.
Whether you like it or not, “tunneling is OP and needs to be changed” is nowhere stated or implied in OP’s post.
The claim that it’s an OP problem that needs to be fixed is something you introduced into the discussion, not OP.
Well, let's pull back and look at this whole topic.
If you think tunnelling is a problem, it is almost always for one of two reasons: the imbalance, or you feel it's unfun to go against. It's usually the former, sometimes it's the latter.
In either case, you'd be suggesting changes to fix it, and you'd be upfront about the fact that your goal is to fix tunnelling as a problem.
Which of the two reasons you have in mind would be relevant to longer conversations, certainly, but when it comes to just pitching whatever change you have in mind the only part that's relevant starting off is that you think it's a problem worth fixing.
That's what I'm saying. There's no repackaging or reframing, there's no sneaky indirect changes to try and avoid saying the issue outright, people just take it as a given that tunnelling is worth fixing and make their pitches accordingly.
There's a fairly large degree to which it doesn't matter in this context whether they think it's OP or unhealthy for more fun-related reasons. We as commenters should still be evaluating the suggestion to see if it'd address the issue and to see if it'd have any unwanted side effects all the same.
Nitpicking the word "lame" to get mad at it isn't constructive either way, and it doesn't mean there's anything deceptive happening with the framing. -
@top500spiderman said:
Of course there are still people who think tunneling is a problem. And some still drag that topic openly, its cringe but they do.
the tunneling discussion has been repeated for years and it almost always ends the same way. The same arguments get brought up, the same counterarguments get brought up, and the conversation just loops.
Because of that, some players don’t argue the tunneling point directly anymore. Instead, the discussion shifts toward indirect changes that would weaken tunneling in some way without framing the argument as a tunneling issue. Sometimes that includes perk changes, killer changes, or mechanics like information systems.
Instead of saying “this needs to change because tunneling is OP,” it becomes “this mechanic is lame,” or “this killer needs a nerf because of X.” But the underlying reason is still often the same: they believe it makes tunneling OP.
The reason it gets framed that way sometimes is because people already know what the response to the direct tunneling argument will be. That debate has happened thousands of times and usually ends the same way.
So the argument doesn’t go away, it just gets repackaged through smaller changes because the direct version of the debate is exhausted at this point. And they know trying to get tunneling nerfed by directly asking for it wont be taken seriously.
seeing another post about tunneling being OP is like seeing another post about the knight being OP.
The sticking point for me here is that this is arguing the tunnelling point directly.
OP's reasoning mentions tunnelling twice. They're not trying to hide or reframe that their proposed change is meant to weaken tunnelling, they're saying it outright.
Like you yourself said, this is an old talking point, and it hasn't substantially changed in years. At this point isn't it more likely people just take it as read that tunnelling is a problem worth fixing and don't bother with that preamble when they suggest changes?
It's not like tunnelling's been fixed yet. The things that made it OP back when this topic first aired its head may not be completely unchanged, but the only substantial change it has received was 6.1.0 removing the absolute most egregious version— and outside of that, tunnelling is still OP for the same reasons it was in the past.
There's no reason for the argument to go away, that's why you still see people directly saying they want adjustments to weaken tunnelling. -
@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062013#Comment_4062013
Complaints about tunneling have been around forever, and people are pretty tired of the discussion at this point. The same arguments get repeated over and over, and the same responses always follow.
Because of that, some players don’t argue about tunneling directly anymore. Instead, they suggest changes that indirectly weaken it.
Sometimes those suggestions target specific killers. Other times, like in this case, they target the killer’s information mechanics.
So the “tunneling is OP” argument hasn’t really disappeared. It’s just being framed differently so it sounds more reasonable.
The real goal is often the same, but instead of saying it outright, the argument gets wrapped in smaller changes or different reasoning. That way it sounds less like “tunneling is OP” and more like a reasonable balance suggestion. They dont always say it outright because sometimes players wont even take them seriously. Its the same argument over and over and over with the same results.
I'm really still not seeing the point, I'm afraid, but I'll try and elaborate on my understanding here.
So, tunnelling is a very old topic. It's been an issue since the start of the game's existence and it still exists, so people still post about it.
Because this is an old topic and has been discussed a lot, some people talk about fixes to tunnelling that try to approach the issue from different angles.All of this is still under the same framing, though. Players feel tunnelling is an issue worth fixing, and obviously that hasn't happened yet, and that's the entire framing. Tunnelling still exists and people still want to fix it.
Just saying "tunnelling is OP" isn't a reasonable suggestion, of course, it's not constructive, which is why people who want to address the issue generally lean towards suggesting specific changes like here.Nobody's trying to hide anything strategically, people just talk about the issue with the aim of trying to fix it. It's pretty upfront.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062000#Comment_4062000
I’m not nitpicking anything. I’m simply responding to OP’s actual argument.
What sense would it make for me to invent my own reason for why OP thinks the unhook notification is a problem when he already stated his reason in the post? Turning the reason he gave into something else isn’t fair. That would just be creating my own argument and pretending he made it.
If someone wants something nerfed or buffed, they need to provide a reason. And he did — he said it’s “lame.”
Saying “I want the unhook notification removed because tunneling with it is lame” is not the same as saying “I want the unhook notification removed because tunneling with it is overpowered.”
Those are two completely different arguments. One is about personal frustration, the other is about balance.
that's a minority opinion among people who acknowledge it as a problem, but it does exist - but you're not exactly making any case against their idea either way
Complaints about tunneling are pretty ancient at this point, and whenever they pop up in threads it’s almost cringe now. There’s a lot of fatigue around the topic because it’s been argued to death, the same points get repeated, and the same counterarguments always follow.
Because of that, some players try to frame changes more strategically to bring indirect nerfs to it. Sometimes it’s through killer adjustments, and sometimes, like in this case, it’s through the killer’s information mechanics.
The classic “tunneling is OP” post hasn’t really disappeared. It’s just evolved.
And sometimes it’s harder to spot now because the argument gets framed in a different way so it sounds more reasonable or more serious.
I'm not sure I understand the back half of your response, if you wouldn't mind clarifying.
Posts about tunnelling still happen, yes, and posts about tunnelling have evolved to newer/updated ways of potentially addressing the issue. It's the part about it being "harder to spot" because of the argument being "framed" differently that confuses me.
Is that not just that people continue to talk about the problem? You can spot people talking about the problem because they mention the problem by name. I'm not sure if I'm missing something here?
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061995#Comment_4061995
He made it clear in his post that the reason it’s a problem for him is because he thinks it’s “lame,” not because it’s overpowered.
People can think something is a problem for different reasons. In OP’s case, the reason he gave was that it’s lame.
You’re pointing out that he implied it’s a problem, which is obvious, but what you’re ignoring is the reason he gave for it being a problem.
If the real argument is that it’s overpowered, then that should have been the argument made.
Alright, I'll admit it, I did misunderstand your position.
I will say though, that's really nitpicky. Tunnelling being unbalanced is an extremely common sentiment, I don't think everyone should be expected to state outright that they also think that when suggesting ways to address tunnelling. That part is still basically implied if someone's talking about it as a problem. Going against unbalanced cheese is definitely something many would call lame.
It also doesn't really convey any disagreement you might have with the idea. It's possible OP wouldn't agree that tunnelling is unbalanced - that's a minority opinion among people who acknowledge it as a problem, but it does exist - but you're not exactly making any case against their idea either way, just nitpicking their phrasing.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061991#Comment_4061991
Why are you trying to reframe what I just said as “he never mentioned tunneling”?
That’s not what I said.
I said he never made it clear that the reason he wants the information nerf is because tunneling in that situation is overpowered. The only reason he actually gave was that it’s “lame.”
So I think you’re the one misreading here.
My point is more that if someone suggests a balance change, and their reasoning exclusively references tunnelling, it's pretty implied that they think tunnelling is a problem.
That is the context under which people are discussing the balance change. The actual reason OP gave was tunnelling, which they describe as both efficient and lame to go against.
I was attempting to be charitable because I thought you might've missed the phrasing of going back "to tunnel" and only saw the part where they describe it as lame.
It's the only reason people are discussing the unhook notification to begin with, that tunnelling is therefore a problem is implied. It's not like it's a particularly hot take, even if you personally disagree it's a very common sentiment that tunnelling is an issue. -
@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061985#Comment_4061985
I mean, it’s pretty subtle given that OP’s reasoning for the info nerf was simply that it’s “lame.”
Maybe it would’ve been more transparent to just say the real argument outright, that tunneling is overpowered when done in that situation.
Not saying this was necessarily OP’s intention, but it does seem like some players who think tunneling is OP try to frame their arguments around smaller changes like this instead of stating it directly, because it sounds more reasonable that way.
But if the underlying issue being argued is tunneling, then that should be the discussion, not removing information from the killer and pretending it’s a balance issue.
To be fair, they mentioned tunnelling directly twice, I'm really not sure how much more clear they could've been. Specifically their phrasing was that the killer dropped a chase to "go back and tunnel when they hear the notification".
That's also what everyone else has been talking about, at least if they're in favour of this change. The unhook notification is being linked to tunnelling and therefore discussed as a potential way to alleviate tunnelling as a problem.
Even the person you were talking with when I replied, they're talking about tunnelling, they say it outright. I think you might've just misread a few posts? No shade, it happens to the best of us.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061976#Comment_4061976
Lol, so being notified when and where someone was unhooked, and deciding to run back to the hook after it happens, is now considered OP?
So killers shouldn’t be notified when and where an unhook occurs because they might tunnel during that window?
That’s the argument?
This is just another undercover “tunneling is OP” post, isn’t it?
…It's not undercover, man, everyone's been talking about tunnelling this entire time.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061824#Comment_4061824
You explaining what “autopilot” means doesn’t change the point.
Is it unbalanced?
Calling something “autopilot” isn’t a justification for an information nerf. Where is the balance issue? How does this information actually disrupt the balance of the game?
Putting a label on it doesn’t suddenly make it a problem. “Autopilot” isn’t an argument — it’s just a word being used to justify a nerf that hasn’t been shown to fix any balance issue.
Not to speak on someone else's behalf, but it's what the killer is autopiloting that matters here. It autopilots their ability to tunnel a survivor, so yes, it's unbalanced.
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I'm not so sure I agree that things aren't going to be getting better for them, though things are currently pretty bad for the bottom few killers.
Assuming we are just talking about weak killers here instead of M1-focused power designs (since Ghoul is the opposing example), things have been getting better for those killers over the years.
Sure, the bottom four (Trapper, Skull Merchant, Ghostface, Sadako) haven't been improved much any time recently, but the sort of middle area is full of killers that used to be way weaker. Wraith, Doctor, Pig, Legion, and Myers are all bare minimum respectable B tiers at this point, and they've all been pretty weak at some point in the past- same with Trickster right now, though obviously we don't know yet how much of a buff that rework's going to end up being.
I wouldn't be surprised if one of the bottom tiers currently gets genuine help sometime soon-ish. It is a thing BHVR seem to be doing more often these days.
A ray of hope, I think. It's not all doom and gloom. -
I'm in two minds about a change like this, personally.
On the one hand, it would be a slight knock to tunnelling. Without the notification to autopilot, especially on higher mobility killers, tunnelling becomes slightly more committal; you need to be keeping an eye on the hook UI, and splitting your attention like that can cause you to make mistakes. Not a bad outcome for the game's biggest balance problem, even if it doesn't fix it outright.
On the other, the loud noise notification does have some legitimate application letting the killer keep up their macro tracking. It wouldn't be impossible to gain that macro tracking back by keeping an eye on the HUD… but like I said above, splitting your attention like that can lead to mistakes. Not a great outcome for one of the game's bigger avenues for skill expression on killer.
A compromise I personally do like is to put it on a perk, like they did for the 9.3.0 PTB- just, y'know, not the same perk, that was kind of a nightmare.
I'd propose Slippery Meat as the candidate. It's a universal perk, so everyone has it, and it's also kind of a bad perk with an unhealthy design at the moment. Reworking it to remove the unhook notification then maybe one small scaling effect for perk tiers would be a win all around in my opinion.