jesterkind
jesterkind
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Distortion really isn't in that bad of a spot right now, but I do think it could fairly be buffed a little bit.
Honestly, I think if all they changed was having you start with both tokens instead of just one, that'd basically do it. Still a strong and useful anti-aura tool both for blocking auras and for telling you what the killer has, without being effectively a perfect hard counter that shuts off aura reading entirely like it was before, and the extra token at the start helps against Lethal builds + just makes the perk a bit more accessible.
This is more of a personal thing but I'd honestly rather see more anti-aura tools, alongside buffs to the actually bad ones like Sole Survivor. Eleven came with one and that's great, there's room for more like that.
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@Junylar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048357#Comment_4048357
How do you tag a totem you have seen while being chased by the killer? You can do it in SWF. How do you tag traps? You can do it in SWF. How can you track spawned and dropped pallets around the map? You can do it in SWF. How do you tag the killer, telling your team his exact location and what he is currently doing? You can do it in SWF. How can you tell your team your suspicions about the killer's perks? You can do it in SWF. How can you tell your team "fall near this locker, I have head on"? You can do it in SWF. How can you tell your chased teammate the killer is double-backing or moon-walking behind the wall? You can do it in SWF.
As you can see, adding voice commands gives only a mere fraction of SWF power, a negligible one at that.
To be fair, SWF will always have some advantages over solo queue, that's the case in every game that has a solo queue/premade split to begin with.
The goal should be more to raise the baseline so aware solo players can make informed decisions, and make solo queue operate at or above a reasonable level frequently.
Edit, typo
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Regarding your point about DS: I think a smoother solution is to have stuns deplete power tokens/put powers on cooldown where appropriate, rather than making it an effect from the perk Decisive Strike in particular.
For example, if Nurse and Blight in particular had their powers lose tokens and go back on cooldown after a stun, DS would be more effective against them and they'd have more reason to be concerned about pallets, which largely don't actually matter against them in the least.
It gets a little more case-by-case after those two, but it's surely something that can be considered for other killers in similar positions to them- the only real outliers then are range killers, but that's where anti-tunnel needs to be based on more than perk choices or effects like Endurance or stuns. -
@Emeal said:
I love weeping angels, but nobody would like to be one. Imagine being locked down by 4 blinking survivors. nah
But idd love a Doctor Who chapter, but it should contain the Daleks instead as Killer.
EXX TER MINATE!!!! *blam laser*
I've been of the opinion for a while that the best option for Doctor Who killer would be a Cyberman.
Lots to work with there, from the wrist gun to Cybermats and the like.
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Honestly, I don't really think the Weeping Angels should be part of the mechanics for any Doctor Who chapter, I think it'd be too difficult to make it work.
The alternatives, in my mind, would be to either have them be a map easter egg jumpscare like the facehugger on Nostromo Wreckage, or a legendary skin for Nurse.
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@Royval said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4047241#Comment_4047241
everything you just said is the case in every video game lol it has nothing to do with dbd.
Check the last two sentences again.
In every other video game (or at least those I'm familiar with), voice chat is an optional bonus because important information can be gained through other means. I would argue this is because voice chat would be a deeply unreliable primary source of that information and would not fix any issues related to communication/information gain on its own.
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@Royval said:
the only way solo q is solvable is vc idc what anyone says all this wasted resources on anti tunneling, slugging things that were completely made up and blown out of proportion didn’t need to happen ADD VOICE CHAT AS A LIMITED TIME MODE TEST IT. Instead of saying it’ll never be in the game and never giving a reason as to why.
Voice chat won't solve any of those problems, is the thing, and I can give you a reason why.
If voice chat is understood to be The Mechanism by which information is shared, everyone in every trial needs to be using it. If we even want it to appreciably help, most people in most trials need to be using it.
However, ability to engage with voice chat this way is completely dependant on both you and your teammates meeting the following criteria:- Everyone has to speak the same language
- Everyone has to own a mic, and feel comfortable speaking into it to strangers
- Nobody can have crazy noise pollution (loud music, parents/roommates arguing, etc)
- Nobody can be toxic enough to warrant muting
If any of those conditions aren't met, suddenly voice chat isn't conveying the information it needs to, which means it isn't doing its job. Voice chat, in every other game, is an optional bonus capable of providing extra coordination, but isn't the fundamental source of important information. DBD needs that more solid foundation before voice chat could even be considered— which isn't even getting into the conversation of whether we should have voice chat for the game's tone and atmosphere.
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I don't disagree, but I do feel it's a little more nuanced than that.
For starters, you have to be careful which communication forms you give out. If you want it to help, you can't put in voice chat and call it a day- something like a quick chat wheel would be much smarter.
But the other thing I'd mention is that solo queue needs information gain other than just communication methods, as well. Being able to see your teammates' perks in the match details screen and possibly a partial basekit Kindred would still be quite useful and healthy even with a chat wheel- you can't always rely on players wanting to communicate, most games will have some form of passive info gain like that as well.
Overall though, I do agree.
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For Second Wind, the change I'd suggest instead is having it activate for finishing a heal on someone, rather than being based on time spent healing. That's how Clean Break and Conviction work, and Clean Break is perfectly balanced + the thing stopping Conviction from being balanced isn't that part.
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@Mono_Neko said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4046983#Comment_4046983
And it is the right decision so why are they expected not to do it and throw the match???
I'm sorry but if you can't escape a deadzone after being unhooked, I don't know what to tell you.
Lastly, the game has adjusted to make tunneling harder and harder but survivors want it completely gone, not just like the fireballs so yes, you proved my point…
Refer back to my first post. Nobody should be flaming the players for taking the obvious best option. It should be on the devs to ensure that best option is better balanced, and not an obvious cheese tactic.
Don't mistake my arguments here for justifying toxicity. If you're tunnelled out, complain to your mates or on the forums, but don't be nasty to another human being about it. The most constructive thing to do with that frustration is advocate for change.
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@Mono_Neko said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4046956#Comment_4046956
You shouldn't escape every game, period. The game is a 4v1 so a win for survivors is 3 out or more. Yes mmr doesn't recognize that but everyone else does so you are just butt hurt at that point.
Killers aren't "boosting" their rank, they are using optimal tactics and survivors are whiny about it, just learn to loop ffs.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4046960#Comment_4046960
Then don't stay under the hook like every good survivor will tell you…. Between the time where you get unhooked and the time it takes the killer to TP, you are safe, otherwise you threw, I tested it.
Who created the deadzones in the first place? Survivors, so you didn't manage the ressources correctly and, with the amount of times I see Megs prethrowing all the pallets in areas, I can say it IS the survivor's fault, not the killer's fault. Also if you know there is a deadzone, don't die next to it, you can't be mad at the killer for taking advantage of your poor positioning. It's like if someone got mad at a sniper for shooting them when they walk in the open for a minute….
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4046945#Comment_4046945
Hours don't mean ######### and you know it…
This 200 hours Wraith might be on a new account or simply changed plateform. Hours doesn't equal skill.
Deathslinger shots can be bated, houndmaster is saveable (wait for her to hit you and save during cooldown). I will give you that iri huntress is the exception, yes. You'd need 2 people for a save and that needs much more coordination. Not impossible but in soloq it is nightmarish.
This has always been a killer vs survivor issue, the killer saying that "they don't need to do that to win" are low MMR and throw their own matches which is really weird.
Are you gonna get mad in a fighting game if your opponent uses fireballs from range when your character can only do melees? Ofc! Does it mean the opponent shouldn't be able to spam fireballs? NO. It means you need to adapt and find ways to block/dodge the fireballs and get closer to hit them!
Are you gonna get mad at a sniper for shooting you in the head when you stand still? Yes. Should they throw the game and let you stand still for minutes? NO, you need to find covers, be unpredictable…
Need more analogies or do ya'll get the point?
Again, the point is that the killer returning to the hook and therefore getting to tunnel you can be their decision, not your mistake.
As for the second part, I mean, resources have to be used. Deadzones being created in general isn't a mistake either, the game's designed around it. If a deadzone is created, you're supposed to avoid that area… which you can't do if you're hooked there and chased as soon as you're unhooked.
To respond briefly to your response to someone else: Modern fighting games are typically designed so that you can adapt to fireball spam, or just to limit fireball spam in general compared to older games. That'd be an example of adjusting the game to promote fairness, which is what a lot of people want with tunnelling.
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@Mono_Neko said:
Sadako is an m1 killer that you should be able to win chases against easily, so I will say it only for that bcs I hate saying it, but it's a skill issue.
Now for Billy and others I can see the point and to that I say: 10% haste is enough to make it to a good pallet, otherwise you deadzoned yourself: again, nothing the killer should be insulted for, it's bad ressource management….
The point in bringing up Sadako isn't that she's an unstoppable tunneller. I agree, Sadako is one of the few killers you can fairly reasonably fend off a tunnel from, especially with perks.
The point is that a good majority of the roster can just decide to return to the hook and tunnel you, not just the high tiers like Billy. It's just flat out not because the team made a mistake in a lot of scenarios- it's a decision the killer can choose to make for themselves and force the issue.
As for the last part, that's not really how it works. Resources have to be used sometime, and even if you reach one it isn't necessarily going to be a good one that'll help that much. You can't avoid a deadzone if you're hooked in it.
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@Mono_Neko said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4046921#Comment_4046921
Again, if the killer is near hook, DO NOT UNHOOK. You should have more than enough time to get to a safe pallet with the time it takes for ANY killer to come back to hook. Again, punishing the killer for the team's mistakes…
That works against slow killers to some degree, but there's quite a few killers capable of closing that distance very quickly. Not even strong killers, necessarily- even a killer like Sadako can return to hook fast enough that you aren't making distance.
The cold hard fact of the matter is that being tunnelled is not your mistake. Even when a mistake was made, the killer always has the unhooker to chase as well, but it's a given that they'll choose the person who got unhooked because they're the substantially easier chase.
That's not to say I approve of the Endurance, I think it's sloppy and the ways survivors have of buffing it with perks are prone to being weaponised, but there does need to be something dissuading the killer from taking what would otherwise be a much easier chase. Otherwise they just get the free value.
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@Mono_Neko said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4046911#Comment_4046911
How is it easier to chase an unhooked person with 15 seconds of haste/endurance instead of a new person? Even at basekit, the survivors is at an advantage
The survivor starts the chase injured and out of position- that is to say, the killer starts right on top of them, or at the very least very close. When their Endurance elapses, they're a one hit down, or conversely you can hit them immediately to effectively only give them a post-hit sprint's worth of distance, which for a lot of killers isn't much.
The survivor also has a high chance of being in a deadzone, or at the very least not near any noteworthy resources. After all, a chase did just happen there before, it's why that survivor was hooked in the first place.The fifteen seconds of Endurance and Haste are why there's a chase in the first place. It's still an easier chase than targeting someone fresh, otherwise people wouldn't bother doing it.
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I don't think it's necessarily accurate to consider any of this being rewarded for a mistake, personally.
Your first example is a combination of being downed, being left on the ground, and then your teammate using a perk. The first two aren't mistakes - you're expected to be downed eventually, and being left on the ground isn't even in your control to begin with - then the reward actually comes from your teammate having spent the perk slot on that effect, not from your supposed mistake anyway.
Your second example is just braindead perks, not rewards for mistakes. I actually kinda agree overall, though I will note Dead Hard does require something from you these days. Sprint Burst and Lithe are certainly annoying perks for how free they are, but ultimately I think a little annoyance is acceptable.
Then your third example is anti-tunnel. It's the strongest example, so I wanted to address it the most constructively. Basically, I would argue that it is a necessary evil for the killer to punish unsafe unhooks by downing the unhooker quickly and not the unhooked, because if that weren't the case then the killer would just be able to freely tunnel someone off hook regardless of if any mistakes were made or not.
It's not fully a reward - unsafe unhooks still put the rescuer in a position for at least an easy first hit - but it's a lessening of the potential punishment because allowing the killer to target either survivor means they would be able to do so even if the unhook was attempted in a more safe manner.These protections that get added aren't supposed to reward you for making mistakes, and mostly don't. They give you a way of fighting back against specific basekit problems that have existed over the years.
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Broadly, it isn't constructive or appropriate to shame any players in these contexts.
That said, the reason the killer gets shamed and not the survivors is because it's the killer who chose to try and leverage something unbalanced, which is quite frustrating to go against. It's still only appropriate to aim any criticisms at the devs, not the players, but there's an emotional reaction to getting tunnelled that only exists if you're on the receiving end of it.
For camping and slugging, sure, there's answers. Tunnelling, however, just puts you in a much harder chase because the killer decided they wanted an easier win, and that's not a reasonable thing to expect most players to deal with. You have to outperform the killer pretty considerably to beat tunnelling- at least without perks.
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I don't know that Pig really needs a rework at this stage. They've spent five years buffing her power steadily, to the point that her RNG is way less punishing than it used to be and even Ambush isn't that bad anymore.
At this stage, I genuinely don't think Pig is that weak anymore. A handful more small buffs and I think she'd be just fine, maybe an addon pass in there too.
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@UUolf said:
??? all they have to do is make survivors who were just unhooked/unhooked themself, have their endurance for way longer, as it literally already should be.
and have their haste speed off hook increased, but last the same duration as it currently lasts.
They also were GOING to add the unhooked survivor leaving no scratch marks, blood pools, or grunts, which I didn't even suggest to them but I think is a good idea.
There is NO reason the killer should be able to commit to chasing and downing that survivor, unless the survivor is purposefully not running away from the killer to go heal/is doing a really poor job at doing so.
While I do personally like focusing on Elusive and Haste, those mechanics can be viewed as very disruptive, which didn't seem to go over well.
The idea here is to create a system that both protects survivors from tunnelling, but also isn't super disruptive to anyone's gameplay, because I believe that's a more realistic method of solving the tunnelling problem.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I dont agree with the hyperfocus, off the record, and off hook endurance + haste nerfs but everything else yes. Off the record is not really an antitunnel perk anyway, it’s a good anti-snowball perk, and im sure the devs see that even with 40 seconds. Even though it can be used defensively it’s also an aggressive perk. Simply I dont think it should be nerfed.
Besides that I agree with your ideas. But one thing that concerns me though is that decisive strike might become redundant if every unhooked survivor has 60 seconds of immunity to hooks by base.
Off The Record being a perk you can use aggressively is why I'm suggesting it be changed this way. Off-hook bodyblocking is a pain point for killers and, historically, the way anti-tunnel has been weaponised by aggressive survivors since patch 6.1.0.
Part of the give and take here is that the killer loses one common tactic in tunnelling, and survivor loses two niche tactics in genrushing and off-hook bodyblocking. At the very least, all of those things become more difficult or costly to do, at any rate.
As for DS, I also have this concern, but I think having one traditional anti-tunnel perk stick around just in case this turns out to not quite be enough is a smart move. Hypothetically if this patch hit live, a little down the line we could revisit DS to see if it can safely be reworked.
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I think it's more that Chaos Shuffle isn't necessarily the best showcase for a lot of perks, especially on the survivor end- but even on killer, you can roll a perk that is useless on your killer but quite useful on another character.
I played a match earlier where I rolled both Plunderer's Instinct and Still Sight. Even disregarding that Still Sight is kinda weak, there's a fair amount of overlap between those two perks, and you'd typically run them in some kind of chest build, not paired with Mirrored Illusion and… I forget what the fourth one was, but not a chest perk.
Now, I brought a key in with me so I could benefit from them, but someone who didn't generally would've had two dead perk slots vying for each other's position in a niche that player doesn't want. It doesn't mean Plunderer's Instinct is bad, and it's not even the reason Still Sight is a bit meh, but that distinction doesn't matter from that player's perspective in that moment.
It's easy to conflate a perk that simply doesn't shine on its own with a perk that's actually useless, and Chaos Shuffle exacerbates that. Even so, more perks than most think are useful even within that context.
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@terumisan said:
well the core problem that i have is you can't really have these anti changes since the killer objective and survivor objective aren't equal since even with base generator speed 5 gens can be done way faster than 12 hooking so tunneling camping and slugging will always be necessary unless you buff gen regression while nerfing gen progression
but this is my opinion
While they aren't equal, they're linked, insofar as the killer performing their objective well slows down the survivor's objective naturally.
"12 hooking" is a high bar. Realitically, most of your wins aren't gonna be 12 hooks on a perfect rotation; people are gonna die in the endgame on their first hook, people are gonna get hooked back to back without tunnelling, so on and so forth. Being able to "12 hook" isn't the goal when it comes to balancing killer.
The question is, can you achieve a reasonable winrate without tunnelling, and the answer to that is already yes. Remove genrushing and Endurance bodyblocking, and it gets even better.
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Why would the gens be flying in Chaos Shuffle?
The survivors don't have reliable access to any of the tools they'd use to crank out gens, they're reliant on pretty much just default repair speed if they don't get particularly lucky. In this variation you can't even compensate by bringing in a stacked toolbox, since the variant and addons are randomised.
If anything gens should be slower in Chaos Shuffle, surely?
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I see.
I ask because I don't really see how that connects to your response, in that case. I mean, the thing people are frowning at isn't just chasing a weak survivor, or generally giving yourself some kind of advantage somehow. It's specifically leveraging the vulnerability someone has off hook for a chase that's stacked in your favour, for free.
The specifics do matter.
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@EbonyChess said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4045138#Comment_4045138
Okay, so let me rephrase
You expect him to not chase you even thoughr (assuming) you're a easy target? It's like if I complained to you about gerting to a loop.
Or if I complained about you focusing in which 3 gen you would left for last.
You're complaining that he is playing in a way that puts him on advantage at the expense of your own enjoyement with the game.
Out of curiosity, how would you define tunnelling?
There may be a different in definition happening there.
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See you around, man. You'll be missed!
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As the above said, in this particular PTB, there are new perks to test out.
On other PTBs, there are also system mechanic changes to test out with a variety of killers, or survivor changes that might affect certain killers more than others.
I can't think of a recent PTB where restricting it only to killers who were actually changed wouldn't cut out a huge swath of potential testing. Maybe some people are just doing it to test out certain killers, but even they are contributing to testing- one of my gripes with this PTB is that Bada Bada Boom is basically impossible to test against the First, so anyone playing another killer raises my chances of being able to test it.
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For survivors all I really want is to enjoy their aesthetic. Vee's great for me, I very much like her visuals, and I've played Meg, Claudette, Jane, and Sable for the same reason.
I guess I did briefly play Jill because I like her from RE, though.
For killers, it tends to vary, but broadly I enjoy macro-focused powers with M1 gameplay being at least sometimes relevant. I like Trapper, Wraith, Sadako, Legion, etc.
The furthest away is that I have been learning Houndmaster lately, I like her projectile/dash more than others for some reason. She's dope when she works, though. -
@Munky said:
The amount of gaslighting and empty arguments in this post is absolutely astounding ><
Y'all should check NL stats and tell me what you think would happen to them if hypothetically BHVR somehow magically removed tunneling from the game:
1) Do y'all think killers will get better, cause you know, obviously they arent performing well enough right now, or at least that is what many of you think. Maybe in a few months timespan who knows, PS the current average of all killers combined is aprox 51% killrate.
2) … Or do you think the entire average will drop below 50%?Ask yourself what would be the most logical consequence? Cause if you are asking me, I'm pretty sure it will be the latter. And if anyone thinks a 'power role' should drop below 50% average, I don't know what to say. Bottom killers are alrdy scraping close to 40% as is…
Sure top killers are near 60%, but everyone alrdy complains they only see killer S & A tier… If killrates drop more due to artificial reasons, even killers that play B C & D will get pushed towards playing killers S & A. you can't have it all ppl…People keep arguing for the death of this game and they don't even realize it.
Temporarily the killrates would drop (either a little, or a lot, it depends on how many killers rely on tunnelling for their wins) and then stabilise back up after players adjust.
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@Munky said:
Here are some objective facts for you: The BEST Blights on the planet STILL use "low skill tactics" both in competitive and public settings, because they know they need to. These are ppl that know how to chase and get quick downs, on arguably one of the strongest killers in the game.
Now ask yourself… if that objective fact is true, how would the average low-mid tier public killer fare in most matches if they would not use "low skill tactics"? Honest question, I just want to see your (hopefully) rational answer to it.
This is the lowest quality bait I have seen in a while. Stay rational my guys. Defo stick with the "git gut" arguments if you want to be taken seriously /s.
Edit: I will add tho, since the poster is a bit vague and deceptive. Of course you "can win" some matches by just going pure for the chase. That is because MMR forces you to get some wins and some losses. What a post like this suggests tho is that "if killer is good at the game, they can win every match", which is a blatantly false lie.
And if you Still believe killer is easy, I'll happily show you in 1v1 what a high MMR survivor is like ;) You know, you can tunnel me, which you claim is the easy tactic :) Just you and me, I'll record and post it so you can prove everyone that you are right. No? Didn't think so…
If we're sticking to the objective facts, the only part that counts is that the best Blights on the planet (or if we're being sticklers, the players commonly agreed to be the best) still sometimes tunnel.
The claim that it's because they "know they need to" would be conjecture, not objective fact. Those players themselves may even make that claim, but that wouldn't make it a fact, still just opinion.
You could, for example, just as easily argue that the best Blights on the planet still tunnel because there's simply no reason not to. It still gives them more value for less effort even if they know how to effectively play the game without it - the basic reason it's unbalanced doesn't go away just because you don't need to use it - and there's absolutely nothing even incentivising them not to, so… why wouldn't they?
If you can win the hard way or the easy way, what incentive do you have to win the hard way unless you want to show off?
As an aside, I don't think anyone would claim you can win every game without tunnelling. I'd hope it isn't possible to win every game even with tunnelling, otherwise it's far more unbalanced than it seems.
The more reasonable claim is that you can reach a reasonable and balanced winrate without tunnelling, which is entirely true. -
I would, sure.
Most of that is that I'm largely interested in his perks, he isn't the kind of killer I really enjoy playing, but also to be fair I could see him getting a few reasonable nerfs and still 100% being worth playing. He's not exactly weak on this PTB.
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Depends on what item and what you mean by "counter", I think. There isn't anything that just depletes item charges in the game anymore to my recollection, but that doesn't mean you don't have answers overall.
Lightborn hard counters flashlights, for example, but you do tend not to find such hard counters for the others. Shadowborn, Forever Entwined, Fire Up, and Two Can Play also exist to weaken flashlight use, to mixed effect.
Toolboxes, I kinda got nothing for you, if it's stacked repair toolboxes used at the start of the match there just isn't any countering it. If it's sabotage toolboxes, though, you can get some good value out of Agitation and Mad Grit, so that's something. They also do well enough with stuff like Starstruck and Forced Penance, so mix and match if you're worried about sabotaging.
For repairing… idk, Corrupt Intervention? Repair toolboxes are a problem and weren't even countered by old Franklin's, lol.For medkits, I've always felt No Quarter was meant to be a medkit counter, but its effectiveness is a little unreliable in my experience. Still, it's there.
Broadly, because medkits aren't that fast anymore, you can reliably weaken medkits by just applying Mangled or some other healing slowdown. Medkits are also the best case scenario for Franklin's Demise, as the time taken running back to their item adds on to the amount of time it takes for them to heal. If it's post-unhook Resurgence combos you're worried about, bring Gift of Pain (Weeping Wounds, if you don't own Pinhead), as it counters that perk in general.I would broadly assume you aren't worried about keys, maps, or fog vials, but if you are… Overwhelming Presence is still pretty good there, it's a nice chase tool. Broadly you just outplay survivors with those items normally, though.
Those are some broad tips at least, I can probably be more specific if you want.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4044626#Comment_4044626
Your points about voice chat are valid, but why are you completely ignoring my suggestion for text chat? Text chat would allow communication without the problems that come with voice chat such as revealing one's voice, background noise, verbal abuse, etc. You can be toxic in textchat but this already exists and obviously there would be a mute option, so it's not gonna be a big problem. Just mute like every other game if you want to not communicate.
Any game with voice chat usually also has a lot more information given to players through other means so they don't need voice chat
This may be true for some games but not all. Especially fast paced shooters like counter-strike, apex, all benefit from the voice chat immensely even though there are other ways to communicate such as pings.
Text chat is fine for PC, but not so much for console. Not against it, but much like voice chat it's a very specific tool that only works some of the time, so a more robust base of information would need to be set up before adding it if that were a road BHVR wanted to go down.
I can't speak to CS or Apex, but I can speak to Overwatch. Back when I played that game, in the early Cretaceous period where dinosaurs still ruled the earth and that game was brand new, it was extremely common not to be able to use voice chat for all the expected reasons; not everyone had a mic, not everyone wanted to use one, many people had to be muted, and it was very common for the language barrier to get in the way.
Overwatch, though, deserves credit for one thing despite any other flaws it might have: It was very good at making sure you didn't need to use voice chat all that much.Overwatch had, among other things I'm probably forgetting:
- The ability to see teammates' positions through walls
- The ability to see teammates' health and ultimate charge at the press of a button
- Active ping-wheel callouts that your teammates didn't have to speak your language to understand
- Passive character-based callouts for various things (EG, "there's a sniper", I remember that one the most)
- A killfeed that gave you a good idea of what was happening at any given time
And so on.
DBD needs things more in that vein. The HUD we got is a great first step, but by my estimation we still at least need the ability to see our teammates' perks mid-match and also ideally some form of limited basekit Kindred for coordinating saves easier before we're in the spot we need to be.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4044608#Comment_4044608
Then i suppose we should just tuck our heads between our knees and suck our thumbs, because there is no solution to it besides the obvious solution!
Also there is a thing called text chat.
Any coop multiplayer game this day features some kind of way to verbally communicate with your team, whether it be voice or text chat. This is a feature since decades ago but dead by daylight is behind it. As it has been behind with gamma settings, fov settings, colorblind settings.
What would it affect you to give people the option to voice chat or text chat? Seriously, what would it impact if the person mutes it and doesn't engage? Literally nothing.
Even resident evil outbreak online from ps2 had no text or voice chat but had in-game ad libs which you could use to communicate with your team. That is a game from ps2 when multiplayer wifi games were a new thing.
For the record, I'm not at all against ping wheels or forms of passive, game-given information. In fact, my follow up to pointing out voice chat won't fix any problems is always to point towards that kind of solution, because that kind of solution will help solo queue.
Obviously, voice chat brings all kinds of negativity with it, from toxic teammates to obnoxious music to someone's parents arguing in the background, but that's only half of the reason it's a bad idea. The other half is that it won't help.
Any game with voice chat usually also has a lot more information given to players through other means so they don't need voice chat, and they do that specifically because of how unreliable and ineffective voice chat would be if it were the only way of getting that information.
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@Royval said:
the problem is that there’s no voice chat solo q will always be terrible every problem would be solved with voice chat.
Voice chat doesn't solve any problem, let alone every problem.
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@Philscooper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4044045#Comment_4044045
They arent as close to viable as they were before. Even if they were to nerf toolboxes (and they alr nerfed medkits)
They arent fun or "troll" enough to switch a key for a flashlight or flashbang.
So in both aspect that most people use items for, neither dont care for the key and never bother using them outside of hatch/aura challenges
That's the thing, though, they're pretty objectively more viable than they were before.
How is their rework less viable than their old situation? They used to not even do anything without addons, now they actually function pretty well.
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Not that I disagree with you, necessarily, but what information in particular are you referring to?
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I genuinely don't know where people get the notion that Keys aren't significantly better than they used to be. Is it just that the Blood Amber is weaker?
Maps, sure, I think it's a shame they lost so much functionality, I'd like to see them adjusted. Minus the Blood Amber being maybe slightly too weak, though, Keys are basically perfect.
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For me, the dream collabs aren't super likely. I've mentioned the web novel Worm before, because its protagonist would make an incredible killer, and that has an extremely low chance if at all.
The more likely dream collab for me would be Doctor Who, it's an absolute classic of horror media and does deserve a spot. As far as I know licensing it can be weirdly difficult though, so it may not have a chance.
Much as I'd love it. Imagine how much variation you can get from survivor cosmetics and legendaries… -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043488#Comment_4043488
You say that as if I have personally agitated against these builds.
You can run any build you want, so long as it is decently implemented and fairly balanced. New aura reading is not. If you want to keep them as broken as they are, that's fine, but then Distortion needs to be up to the task of levelling the playing field again.
You don't get to keep the nonsense on your side but then get mad when the opposing side gets a counter to it.
And if you want to argue that Distortion shouldn't exist, that's fine too, but then aura reading will need significant nerfs to be brought back in line. It is ridiculous to nerf survivor perks for the explicit reason that killer perks are proving too effective.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043544#Comment_4043544
A Nurse's Calling lit you up right next to the killer and did not have particularly clear counterplay
While Nurse's Calling is indeed a solid pick for a less restricted older perk, it is still contingent on a survivor action, which made it a bit more niche, and gave survivors control.
same thing with I'm All Ears.
I do realise that I should be a bit clearer, because I'm All Ears fulfils an entirely different function. Nurse's Calling, BBQ & Chili and all the rest are perks that help you locate survivors so you can start a chase with them. I'm All Ears is wallhacks during a chase, it is not used to locate survivors.
Retribution
Again, contingent on a survivor action, giving the survivor control. This is probably the closest thing to new aura reading, but then, Retribution is a hex. Which shows how heavily the ability to reveal aura with such little restriction used to weigh.
Gearhead
Same thing as Retribution, contingent on a survivor action, can't hit a hiding survivor.
And that's the specific thing: If a survivor is crouching in a corner somewhere, trying to stay out of sight while the killer stalks nearby, the only two of these perks and BBQ that could hit you are Nurse's Calling (Only if you're healing) and Retribution, which is a hex.
I'm All Ears can't hit you, Gearhead can't hit you, Nurse's Calling can only hit you if you're healing up, and at that point, the noises would give you up too.
You absolutely can hide from I'm All Ears and Gearhead and Nurse's Calling and BBQ.
You cannot hide from NTH, or Ultimate Weapon, or Friends 'til the End, or Darkness Revealed, or Weave Attunement, or Floods of Rage, or any of the other options. The only one of the old perks that did not allow you to hide from it is Retribution, and that one was then considered so strong that it had to become a hex to compensate.
But right now, it is assumed that the killer can just see your aura 24/7, and, evidently, that there should be an expectation that they will. That's why the aura-tunnelling blame was shifted from killer perks giving way too much intel to Distortion blocking it.
It's a paradigm shift. It's power-creeped so bad that the game's fundamental perception has changed.
I'm not okay with that. Either Distortion needs to make a comeback, or the aura reading needs to be curbed. Hiding should be an option.
I'm really not sure that's all that much of a relevant distinction here.
Assuming we're talking about the survivor crouching near the killer, and not just in a corner of the map somewhere, the only things they're really at risk from here are NTH (which if it's appropriately nerfed is the dedicated pick for this exact purpose), Darkness Revealed (which may become a problem if that perk ever becomes good; I could see a world where it's fairly changed to have much better numbers but only affect lockers other than the one you opened or something), and maybe Floods of Rage in the same general way they'd have been at risk from Retribution from sheer bad luck in timing.
You can hide from FTTE for the same reasons you can hide from BBQ, you can hide from Weave Attunement because you always know when it's affecting you (altho I will agree that perk's design is frustrating), and you can hide from most of the other auras we've both generally not mentioned. They have specific triggers, only two of them are on demand and one of those two sucks.
This is also only looking at that very specific kind of stealth gameplay, and stealth gameplay is already a specific subset of playstyles. Not to say it shouldn't be an option - it should and still is - but that anyone who isn't specifically trying to crouch near the killer was always going to be revealed by any era's aura perks, which I do feel is relevant.
After all, Gearhead and Retribution may be survivor actions but that doesn't mean the team actually has control. You have to do generators, and in a hex build you have to go cleanse Devour or what have you, that means you're going to be revealed even if you're trying to play stealthy overall.Even speaking to stealth playstyles, too- it should be possible, but legitimate parts of the game will have answers. One or two dedicated "catch the person crouching near me" perks isn't inherently a problem, it's only an issue now because NTH is capable of doing way more than just that.
Auras should have answers too, of course, and while they do have answers right now I do feel it's not enough. Distortion, Off The Record, Shadow Step, Object of Obsession, and now Eleven's new perk We See You are all good in their own way but there's room for more variation in answering auras I think, especially since most of those are fairly specific in which auras they specialise against. Not a giant problem but more of an open design space. -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043482#Comment_4043482
Running Aura peerks is nice to get information ofcourse. But you will realize pretty fast that you miss other things.
Yeah, that's kinda the point of buildcrafting. You give up on some things to gain other things.
Now you could say… that the Killer could run Hexes… but Thrill + undying + Devour + Penti is hated aswell.
So… we go for an Endgame build? But most people hate noed because it is Skillless…
Both of these are whataboutism that don't fix the problem with aura reading's power creep. Not to mention that boiling Endgame build down to just NOED is incredibly disingenuous.
Also, these builds are fixable with proper design so if you really care about that, bring that up in their own threads.
Aura Perks need to be strong or they will be just not worth it to equip when you could take slow down perks.
BBQ & Chili gives aura reading but won't just light you up right next to the killer, and it has clear and effective counterplay. Lethal Pursuer has none of these guardrails, neither does Nowhere to Hide.
BBQ & Chili, by all accounts, should be F-tier compared to those two. It's still, according to Nightlight, the 7th most popular killer perk.
If LP and NtH were removed overnight, BBQ would be the 5th most popular.
They don't need to wreck the game's core functions to have a place.
I have to say, whenever I see these comparisons pop up it feels a lot like the only "older" aura perk being considered here is BBQ, not the others.
BBQ, sure, had a minimum range and clear + effective counterplay, but that's not really true of other older aura perks. A Nurse's Calling lit you up right next to the killer and did not have particularly clear counterplay (if you knew it was in play you could play around it, but not to the same degree as BBQ + there was no way of really knowing), same thing with I'm All Ears.
Even Retribution used in hex builds has been just distance-agnostic aura with no real counterplay this whole time. Gearhead too, more likely to reveal you further away but there's never been counterplay to it even when it was bad.I also feel that "newer" perks are largely being only represented by Nowhere To Hide here, which is certainly overtuned and not restricted enough - there's no excuse for it still following the killer instead of being based around the generator - but I don't know that's true of most others.
Looking at some other newer aura perks, we have a very clear comparison in Friends Til The End and Alien Instinct, both of which have the same trigger and thus the same counterplay as BBQ and that are also restricted by only revealing one survivor at a time.
Lethal Pursuer trades the more normal guard-rails for being single-use, Darkness Revealed has awkward spacing and a cooldown to gate it, and frankly isn't good at the same time, Floods of Rage is very similar to Retribution in being a burst of mapwide aura reading on a reliable trigger in exchange for a low duration, Face The Darkness requires survivors to be outside your terror radius and is a Hex so it can be disabled, Awakened Awareness requires you to be carrying someone so your ability to act on the information is restricted…These perks all have the same kinds of guard rails as older perks did. The issue with Nowhere To Hide is that it is lacking proper restrictions to dictate its use, not that newer aura perks have fewer guard rails than older ones.
If anything, more newer perks than older ones have tells and giveaways to play around. The only real power creep of any kind with aura reading is just numerical, there are proportionally more newer ones than older ones- the design philosophy hasn't really changed. -
@The_Count said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043052#Comment_4043052
That's my point.
More survs wanting to troll killers with flashlights + you have to be a maniac to play killer now = normal queue times for killers in 2v8.My mistake. It read as more of a sarcastic thing to say.
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The killer queue times are as long as they are because killer is the far more popular role, leaving more killers scrounging to match with comparatively fewer survivors.
If way fewer killers play 2v8 this time around that actually would fix the queue times.
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@Junylar said:
If survivors can have one perk that turns off the whole set of killer abilities, how about giving the killer a perk that ignores Endurance or stuns completely as well? Not just "making stuns shorter, and only from pallets", but completely turns off the ability to stun the killer, just like the old Distortion completely turned off every aura reading perk and ability of the killer.
To be fair, killers do have a perk that's equivalent to old Distortion, and it's Lightborn.
Both are silly and the game would be better if Lightborn gets changed too.
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@SoGo said:
Some nice ideas.
2 small problems I see, though.
Apocalyptic Ingenuity being just permanently active could be dangerous. After all, what is stopping people from just endlessly rebuilding every dropped pallet? We saw in the aniversary event that even fraglie pallets can be too much.
And Road Life... still seems bad.
I heard an interesting change that could be done, that being that after unlocking the perk's effect, it would allow you to self-care at the normal healing speed (16 seconds). Currently you need a medkit or Self-Care on top of Road Life.
Also I agree with removing the not being Broken condition, it's pointless.
For Apocalyptic Ingenuity, the thing that'd stop them rebuilding every dropped pallet is that they can only have one up at a time.
Either they'd simply not get the prompt and have to go drop the pallet they've already built, or it'd work like a Hag trap and despawn the one they'd already built if they try and build another.
A fully dedicated team all bringing the perk + dedicating their offering slot to coins could have a maximum of four rebuilt fragile pallets on the map at any given tiem, which I don't think is that scary, personally.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042609#Comment_4042609
Ironically wasnt krasue this? Or is that the joke of "more than one"?
There's no joke here, it's just not a pattern.
Krasue is the killer who got nerfed the most recently, so I guess you could count her, but even considering that… who else? In order of release going backwards:
- Springtrap hasn't seen any balance changes
- Ghoul received nerfs but is still really good
- Houndmaster received mostly buffs after release (and also doesn't fit the first part of the order of events, she released borderline non-functional)
- Dracula received buffs immediately after release and a mixture of buffs and nerfs afterwards
- Lich got a small nerf after release and then a mixture
- Unknown's only received buffs
- Chucky counts? I guess?
But at that point, if we count Krasue as part of this supposed pattern, there's a gap of two years and six killers between them.
I see this take pop up occasionally and it's never made sense to me. This just isn't how killer releases go.
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…Can you give more than one example of the devs doing this even semi recently?
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
They all make sense to me except the change to roadlife, which sounds like nothing really changed. Unless the change is that its no longer blocked by broken status effect?
The way Road Life currently works, you need to be injured and repairing, then you need to hit five Great skill checks to activate the perk. While it's active, you can heal 100% faster, and it deactivates as soon as you stop healing.
This change both lowers the requirements to two Greats instead of five, and allows you to bank uses of it so you have a little safety net against being interrupted/can just heal yourself and someone else, or yourself more than once at different times, etc.
It's a rework that mostly just buffs the activation requirement so it's much smoother.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042481#Comment_4042481
but most relevant aura reading is far more restricted in its effect than old Distortion was
This is where I really disagree, and I think this is also where Distortion's history is relevant.
Distortion got updated to its 'problematic' form in 6.1, in July 2022. It did not get marked as problematic until very shortly before its nerf, which is two years later. Up until that point, it was a complete nothing-burger.
So if Distortion didn't change, what did?
Well, we got Lethal Pursuer, we got Nowhere to Hide, we got Floods of Rage, we got Weave Attunement…
Up until then, the primary source of aura reading was BBQ & Chili, which has a universally telegraphed use condition and ONLY works on those who are far away from the killer. You can also argue I'm All Ears, which only works in chase.
But Lethal Pursuer is free and uncounterable at base.
Nowhere to Hide reveals all those nearby and it's untelegraphed. Floods of Rage reveals all in disregard of their distance to the killer. Weave Attunement reveals all within item radius in disregard of their distance to the killer.
The old aura perks were heavily restricted with specific uses that left room for play. The new aura perks are just autopilots. And that led to the rise of Distortion. In a way, this also neatly ties in with the following:
TL;DR the point is that aura
readingis gated with meaningful numbers + systems keeping it in check, and Distortion wasn't, so the comparison just did not make any sense.Distortion is entirely contingent on the use of these aura reading perks. It only works in the exact same situations that the perks it counters do, so it really carries the same restrictions. If the aura reading doesn't fire, neither does Distortion.
But more importantly than that, Distortion can only ever barely do more than reset the game to base state, which is by definition, not overpowered. Its power and prominence scales with the power of the perks it counters since that is its only function. That is the restriction that it faces. It is not a stealth perk like Lucky Break or Dance With Me, which do something of their own and provide an actual advantage.
It just sets the game to default and nothing more than that. That is Distortion's restriction.
To be clear, what I am referring to when I say that aura reading is more restricted than old Distortion was is that there is always something other than its activation trigger keeping it in check, whereas Distortion had the activation trigger of "aura reads are used against you" and nothing else to keep it in check in any meaningful way because the token system didn't matter.
As to the rest, yes, Distortion is a counterpick. It resets the game to neutral when it activates by disallowing the use of your opponent's perk.
It being able to do that with effectively 100% uptime was bad from a balance perspective and an experience perspective. Being able to hard shut down an entire archetype of tools with zero requirement or tradeoff is just not good design even if the perk in question only does that one thing. It's better for the game overall if hard counters like that are more restricted.
In short, you shouldn't be allowed to turn off an entire class of tools without some gesture towards limiting that effect. The best comparison is still Lightborn, which is the killer version of this concept and similarly unhealthy for the same reasons.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042449#Comment_4042449
This depends a bit on what you mean by "passive".
If you mean "equip the perk and nothing else to get auras" then lethal, weave, undying, bitter mumur, blood Warden, Rancor, discordance, and territorial imperative would all count.
If you mean "equip the perk and do nothing different than play the game" then almost everything else is included, since most of the "trigger requirements" are things like hooks (bbq, gear head, Allen instinct), injuries (nurses, face the darkness), chase (I'm all ears, zanshin), downs (deerstalker), damage actions (nowhere to hide), pickups (awakened awareness).
In fact, I think the only auras that would require "playing differently than normal" on to of the perk itself is grim embrace, since you'd have to hook each survivor once to reveal the obsession. Which is kinda laughable because I forget it even has this feature if the game gets that far. Floods of rage, which requires specifically a scourge hook. Or darkness revealed, which "opening lockers" still could be "normal gameplay" for at least 3 killers. I'll add eruption, which takes a specific sequence of events (kick, then down) but, let's be honest, people don't run this perk for the "aura read" potential.
I'll admit to being more selective with what I was talking about than I should've been, but I do stand by the comparison to Distortion absolutely not working for any perk other than the one Distortion still hard counters.
To start: I do personally carve a distinction between what I'd call passive, and what I'd call accessible. Perks which do have an activation trigger, but ones that you're very likely to hit as a consequence of regular play, I would call accessible rather than passive. You still have to be engaging with the game for them to trigger, where passive perks are just equipping the perk and they function.
(Distortion, to keep on topic for the actual comparison, is now accessible where before it was passive)Where I should've been more specific and did misspeak is in the rest, because yeah, there are some passive aura perks other than Lethal. I do still stand by discounting perks that have like, incidental aura reading, like Undying, but something like Bitter Murmur does count as passive aura reading.
What I meant to say is that nothing hit the level of "perfect hard counter" of Distortion, which is the claim I was responding to. None of the passive tools are even close to perfect, and even the accessible ones are still meaningfully gated; BBQ does not perfectly hard counter stealth and it's a very silly claim to say that it does.
Aura reading, as a class, tends to be meaningfully gated and restrained by its numbers. Comparing that to old Distortion is what I meant to say had no basis, because there's a world of difference between "you get auras after a hook, which is normal gameplay, but only on survivors further than forty metres away and only for four seconds" and "you block all meaningful auras for existing in the trial."BBQ is admittedly a little more restrictive than some others, but most relevant aura reading is far more restricted in its effect than old Distortion was— even the ones you listed are more meaningfully gated than the literal action ascribed.
A Nurse's Calling, for instance, is gated by a survivor action and a distance alongside injuries, same with Deerstalker having a distance and requiring slugging instead of just activating on a down (to contrast with a non-aura tool like Infectious Fright for example).Distortion was meant to be restricted (with its token system), but meaningfully wasn't, it effectively got to be a perfect aura block for no real engagement. Aura reading tools just aren't on that level for the most part, and any that approach it tend to be the problematic ones that get nerfed.
…Though admittedly I'm still waiting for Nowhere To Hide to be nerfed.TL;DR the point is that aura reading is gated with meaningful numbers + systems keeping it in check, and Distortion wasn't, so the comparison just did not make any sense.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042457#Comment_4042457
it's something you do have to do
That's not true, actually. It's a natural consequence of the game, but being chased is not beneficial to the survivors. It's not something they 'have to do'. It's more akin to getting aura reading when a gen is completed.
That's why conspicuous actions would be more logical, because those are actually things that they 'have to do'.
It's the same difference, in this context.
Being chased is as natural and unavoidable a part of the game as doing generators. Sure, there'll be the odd game where you don't do one of those two things, but they're very much outliers.
Same for killer. Going on chases is as natural and unavoidable as getting hooks in the average match. Sure, there's some outliers (and some more problematic ones too in this case), but they too are outliers, not the norm. Hooks are a reliable accessible trigger, chases are a reliable and accessible trigger.In the context of activation triggers, they're identical. You're going to be doing both.