jesterkind
jesterkind
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While I agree that tunnelling and genrushing are somewhat-equivalent issues that both require changes, you're stepping into a very common pitfall in discussing them: You're trying to solve a loadout problem with basekit adjustments.
Tunnelling is a basekit problem, the killer can do it no matter their loadout, it requires no investment from them. Genrushing, on the other hand, requires specific tools to do at all, and even more specific tools than that to do in any way that's actually problematic.
There's no reason to change the survivor basekit to address genrushing. You just need to rework toolboxes and the problem practically disappears on its own.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999665#Comment_3999665
In the case of hard tunnelling at 3-5 gens, maybe.
In a more tame sense, though, it does add tension to the game. Looping when the stakes are high and the killer wants you dead specifically can be intense and fun, and being a huge pain by bodyblocking while the killer is tunnelling someone else is also very satisfying.
It's the edge cases that bring the most frustration, getting someone out of the game super early isn't fun, but tactically trying to tunnel someone out at 2-1 gens remaining still leaves room for Survivors to leverage pressure and counterplay via bodyblocking/taking aggro.
I could see that becoming true with proper safeguards to make that chase not substantially easier than chasing someone else, but it isn't true right now, which is a big part of the problem.
It's not as though you couldn't get that tension from the killer doing anything else to turn a match around, after all.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999655#Comment_3999655
I don't think it is possible to remove it outright without any negative side effects.
They can make it harder, sure, but there's no way to make it impossible without any potential to abuse the mechanics.
Probably. I mostly wanted to make the case for tunnelling adding nothing valuable or worthwhile to the game, since that's a position you'll see the inverse of fairly regularly.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
I don't think it should be made entirely impossible, as it kind of was on the PTB. That just inevitably opens up room for abuse, and makes lose/lose situations.
Having such dire penalties just for killing someone within 6 hooks (which is entirely possible without tunnelling), or for hooking someone twice in a row (which just leads to people sitting on gens being de-facto invincible due to the repercussions of killing them for any reason) eliminates the tension entirely, as Survivors are left completely safe by these measures, and have no reason to fear the Killer no matter how reckless or stupid they might play.
However, I do like the angle they were taking with the hook obscuring mechanics, and the Elusive effect. It doesn't make it completely impossible to tunnel per-se, but it does make it a giant pain to do so. It makes it far easier for an unhooked Survivor to get away, but does not put some kind of crazy shield around them.
I think the gen penalties were well meaning, but overbearing. Having someone dead by 6 Hooks is entirely possible without hard tunnelling, and I think that needs to be reduced to 4-5 Hooks instead. The "last hooked" status also needs to be removed on a Conspicuous Action, to prevent Survivors from being able to have unconditional shielding on Death Hook.
The system should punish people for trying to tunnel someone out off of a hook, not for hooking survivors twice in a row who have reset and gotten back into the game. Any protection that lets Survivors do objectives while being considered as "getting tunnelled" removes any kind of tension while active, as evidenced by DS back in the day.
Like I said, none of this is meant to be a defence of the specific changes on the PTB.
Moreso to say, IF it is possible to remove tunnelling outright without any negative side effects, it should be done. Tunnelling is, at best, a necessary evil we need to accept is possible while minimising it as much as possible.
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Well, first off, Distortion is a counter. It won't shield you from every aura, but it will shield you from some and it'll give you information on what the killer's running, so you can adapt your gameplay accordingly. It's still a damn good perk, it just isn't permanent aura blocking anymore.
From there, two other aura blocking tools are worth mentioning:
Boon: Shadow Step is a good perk for players that just want to do certain actions in specific areas without being seen, and it's also pretty good for extending chases on some maps because it hides scratch marks. Running it with a Map or some perk for revealing totems is best, so you don't waste time, then set it up next to the generator you want to do or what have you and you get permanent, location-based aura blocking. Not meta, but very serviceable.
Off The Record is still primarily an anti-tunnel perk, don't get me wrong, but it gives you a really serviceable 80 seconds of aura cloaking to reset and get some work done after you're unhooked. A lot of people assume OTR in its entirety cancels when you perform a Conspicuous Action, but that's not true- only the Endurance cancels. You get the whole aura blocking no matter what.
Now, obviously I should mention Sole Survivor. In my opinion it's not good, don't bother with it. I know some people swear by it, but I personally do not think it's worth running.
The other answers to prevalent aura read tend to revolve a little around what kind of auras you're actually seeing a lot. If it's post-hook auras (or similar) that lead the killer towards you when you're doing a gen, then you'll get a lot of value out of using aura reads yourself to know when the killer's coming for you. Object of Obsession, Fogwise, Alert, Wiretap, Dark Sense, even Alert and Kindred in some cases, these are all really solid perks to know what the killer's doing and whether they're coming for you.
This may seem like the less powerful option, but it's also really, really good when the killer doesn't have aura reading (OoO aside obviously) as knowing where the killer is doesn't stop being very valuable.
Pairing these tools with something like Sprint Burst or Lithe for an early lead while running away is also really potent.If it's mid-chase auras, you can refer back to a lot of the other options, really, just tailor your picks to those tools. Distortion, for example, is a hard counter to Predator, and Quick & Quiet counters I'm All Ears for another option.
Basically, you have to figure out two things: What auras are you most likely to see/struggle with, and how exactly do they harm your gameplan? Once you have those two things figured out, picks and counterpicks become more clear.
Though, you mention Plague's iridescent aura addon, so just to be clear that addon is messed up, it's way overdue a nerf and I say this as someone who likes using it a lot. It's crazy good, and reliably pierces through a lot of counters to aura reading. That addon is an outlier here.
The balance between auras and stealth is pretty good at the moment, it just requires planning ahead and considering what you're likely to face at the loadout screen. Stealth is an active playstyle these days, not a passive one- it takes some real thought and effort that isn't immediately apparent.
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I kind of agree, actually.
What I think this stems from is that people conflate "party game" with "casual game", when there is a difference between those two things. Party games are as described above, casual games are ones with more depth and complexity that still rewards investing time and effort but that aren't geared towards a particularly intensely competitive expereince.
DBD has, historically, always been the latter. It's never been an e-sports, ranked-mode type competitive game like Overwatch or League or CSGO, but it's also not exactly Mario Kart.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999017#Comment_3999017
"less chance of wasting any charges"
You are literally spending 17% of the charges with a single use.
"the ability to perform other actions while still reading auras is just an upgrade"
Or you could bring Bond and another more useful item such as a toolbox, or a flashlight, since you care about seeing teammates auras
"why do you think this new system makes keys worse? What's the material effect you think is harming keys?"
It's not an on-demand use. Now it's very limited and I might waste my charge for nothing.
The problem is not only for keys but for maps as well. Same thing as above, not on-demand. I want to tap my map and see the aura of stuff within a single second. I want to show the aura of the stuff to my teammates. I want to see gens, totems and chests. As for the keys, I want to use Blood Amber more efficiently as well.You can ask as many keys/map lovers as you can, I promise you the vast majority don't like the changes. And if they say they do, they were never an user in the first place, probably just a player that were sick of finding useless green maps and green keys inside chests.
The thing about that is, while you're spending 17% of your charges on one use, you have more uses and the chances of not seeing someone went down, not up.
Remember, a really hefty range increase and a ten-second linger were added alongside this change. There is less chance of you wasting your charge for nothing, that's part of what makes this system so much better for keys.
Genuinely, have you tried using these new keys across a few trials? The ability you have to track your teammates with them is so much higher than old keys it's insane. There ISN'T an appreciable risk of you wasting charges for nothing with new keys, certainly not more so than old keys.
Yes, you could bring Bond, but if you bring keys that frees up your perk slots for more useful effects. That's how it's supposed to work; the choices rival each other but use different loadout slots. Before, keys weren't worth the item slot for this purpose, and now they are.
I'm not going to argue about maps, I don't like that rework and I think the item should get its core use cases back. Keys, though, are not in the same boat: They got better, not worse.
I didn't use keys very much before, but that's not because I didn't care about them. They just weren't worth it without the Blood Amber. Now they are, so now I'm really pleased I don't need to invest nearly as much for a worthwhile effect + the effect I do get is significantly better. I am a map lover and I don't like that rework, though, to be clear. -
@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999005#Comment_3999005
Yeah so that literally tells the items got worse
Thanks
…No.
That change improved keys because of how that item functions. Larger overall uptime + less chance of wasting any charges + the ability to perform other actions while still reading auras is just an upgrade, it only make keys better.
That change… sorta could improve maps if that rework were better, but there are other problems there. Same general principle behind how that could help maps if they were a bit better designed overall.
The way medkits function, it's hard to imagine how you would even implement such a change without stopping the item from doing what it currently does. I genuinely can't comment on this one because there's no obvious coherent way you'd make this change.
For toolboxes you could do it - consume a charge to get repair speed - but that would just make the item's use case weaker, not stronger. There's no benefit to toolboxes working that way like there is for keys and potentially maps. It also wouldn't really work for sabotages, so there's another logistical concern there like there is with medkits.
Ditto the first part for flashlights - you could maybe do it, but why? What's the benefit? Keys are materially improved by this change for specific observable reasons, and those reasons don't apply to other items.Let me turn the question around on you - why do you think this new system makes keys worse? What's the material effect you think is harming keys?
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999003#Comment_3999003
Okay, would you like medkits, toolboxes and flashlights to have the same charge system as well?
That would make no sense for their use case and wouldn't improve the item in any way, so no.
The items aren't all the same, some of them benefit from specific changes more than others do. I mean hell, how would you apply this charge system to medkits? It wouldn't make any sense.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998997#Comment_3998997
Everything sounds nicer…but it has the awful new charge system
Theres absolute no way you prefer that over the old one
Of course I do?
Why wouldn't I prefer the stronger, easier to use, more effective system?
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998940#Comment_3998940
The new charge system is terrible and it needs to be reversed
Nobody used keys to track teammates. There are perks that can do that (Bond, Empathy, etc)
Keys were only used for 2 purposes: open hatch (which means rat survivors), and Blood Amber (which is basically dead)The buff that keys needed:
Track teammates basekit
Broken Keys lasting for 30 seconds
Ring showing aura of Obsession and vice-versaNobody likes the new charge system. I wonder why medkits, toolboxes and flashlights don't have them, hmm…
And of course, because of the new charge system, Streetwise and Franklin's Demise are dead
Nobody used keys to track teammates because they were bad at it.
That's always been their biggest obvious use case: Track players, to contrast maps tracking objects.
The old keys actually had okay numbers for tracking teammates if you leaned in: Referencing the old wiki, the Skeleton Key with the Gold Token addon gave you 48m of aura reading on teammates for a potential total of 30 seconds. Okay numbers, but requires an iridescent item and a green addon.
Contrast that to new keys. Bringing a Skeleton Key now, with no additional addon support, gives you 64m of teammate aura reading for a potential total of 60 seconds. Right off the bat, those are significantly better numbers.
Additionally, the new key system has passive use, meaning you can pop the key and gain the effect while doing other actions instead of having to micromanage, and means the likelihood of wasting any charges is substantially lower.
On top of that, the Skeleton Key is now a blue item, not an iridescent, and no longer requires any addons to function in this regard so it's much cheaper to access.
On top of that, because it no longer requires addons to function, it means a key you get from a chest actually does something worthwhile, which while only mildly relevant to the overall strength of the item definitely means it occupies a much healthier space within the game.There's no way around the fact that keys got substantially better at their actual job overall. They also got a new job as well, which is nice; I've used the new keys for chest builds and while it's never going to be meta, it's just strong enough to mess around with for fun without feeling like you're throwing. Actually an area where new Streetwise shines, funnily enough.
I would be hesitant to say things like "Nobody likes [X]" when there are people directly saying they do in fact like [X]. It's not less of a criticism for you to just say you don't like it and make a case for why you feel that way.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998750#Comment_3998750
its easy to buff the older version of keys
These new ones are absolute trashI have to say I disagree strongly.
I don't see an angle one could take on new keys where they'd be anything other than substantially better, other than the Blood Amber being admittedly a little overnerfed.
Opening hatch, they're exactly the same.
Tracking teammates, they're substantially stronger.
Chest builds, they now have a purpose they didn't have before that's honestly pretty alright.Keys were noticeably improved across the board, and I couldn't be happier. I always liked them as teammate-tracking items but they were never good enough to warrant actually using, unlike now.
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I'd rather not lose the version of keys that are actually worth using, personally.
I'd also sooner see the rest of those things adjusted over reverted, and while I understand the impulse behind removing map offerings, I'd rather see a big dedicated overhaul to offerings - they're honestly not even the least useful offerings in the bloodweb, as they stand.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997725#Comment_3997725
And again, all your post can just be answered with: You are assuming that the slugged survivor is going to stay on the floor the whole time. What if he, again, crawls to someone doing a gen while recovering, and when he gets there he gets picked up instantly, both do the gen, and by the time you finish hooking the one survivor you found 80 seconds later, you are another gen down with 3 survivors standing?
See? This is what you do. You pick an argument with many implications, create a very specific scenario that follows your narrative, and use that specific example to make a counterargument for all of it.
That, my friend, is the definition of the fallacy of the lonely fact, with some sniper fallacy and cherry picking sprinkled over it.
So, again, I'm done with this. I already explained in detail how and why, so re-read my posts until you understand it.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997758#Comment_3997758
You can say “we were just wrong” but that doesn’t mean we actually were.
I didn't just say "you are wrong". I also explained to you why multiple times.
Most people agree with us.
And a long time ago most people thought that the Earth was the center of the universe and even the sun orbited around it. Your point?
I personally like the idea of recovery while crawling. It’s a nice QOL change. I don’t like holding the button down or having to keep pausing to hold it back down.
They can still make the bar fill automatically when staying still without the need of a button. The problem is being able to recover while moving (among other things, as already explained).
So, this is about the third time that I've said the Tenacity part is a bit too strong and needs toning down so that what you say there requires a little more investment. At this point I don't think you're actually reading what I'm responding to you with, so I think I'm done trying too.
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Mostly it's unhelpful and not very constructive, but there is a kernel of truth underneath it.
Though, it only really applies to tunnelling. Slugging is a legitimate strategy, one that only needs a little weakening of its most egregious elements, so tunnelling is the one that really warrants this response.
There are a lot of things it could mean, DBD is a game with a surprising amount of depth, but I think one of the most obvious and consistent parts of good killer play that isn't being learned (or at least not enacted) while tunnelling would be macro pressure.
For example, let's say you have a hook. A tunneller will either proxy camp that hook, or if they're playing a more mobile killer, return to the hook when they hear the notification; this is explicitly much, much less pressure than the killer could be getting, justified because tunnelling is unbalanced and can lead to a massively favourable 3v1 early.What you might do if you "learned to play", using that unhelpful phrasing for clarity, is make sure that you're constantly using that opening to force survivors to react. Someone's on the hook, so someone has to go save, and you're chasing someone else so they have to run away, rinse and repeat.
Maybe you would proxy camp, but with the aim of chasing whoever comes to try the save, forcing someone else to peel away. Maybe you'd slug for pressure, using the slight time saved to get into your next chase quicker and keep the team on the back foot. Doing this, especially with a good working knowledge of where survivors are or are likely to be, is much more skilful and impressive than tunnelling someone.I'm not going to say that's what people mean when they say this because it is kind of just the "lol git gud" attitude, but I think it's the most useful thing to take away from people saying that. It's the most useful thing to try and hone in your games.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997681#Comment_3997681
See, a lot of what you says really heavily implies that you aren't taking into account how long ninety seconds actually is in this game.
Have you ever thought that maybe it is you who is misunderstanding how short 90 seconds really is in some cases? Just for context, in most maps walking from one gen to another takes a minimum of about 10 seconds.
Imagine you slug somebody. After the attack cooldown, you start checking gens looking for survivors, and you walk around 4 gens. That's more than 40 seconds already.
Now, you find another survivor, chase, and down him. Let's be generous here, and let's say it was a 30 seconds chase. That's, again, more than 70 seconds.
Pick him up, pray someone with a flashlight is not close, take him to a hook, and hook him. Depending on where the survivor has gone down, it can perfectly be another 10 seconds walk to the hook, and that is without counting the hooking animation. 80 seconds.
90 seconds is not a long time, unless you are a high-mobility killer that is flying through the map. And in fact, I propose to you an experiment: Pick an M1 killer with no mobility, and record a couple of games. When you finish, watch the videos and take notes of how much time it took you from finishing hooking one survivor to finishing hooking the next.
Trust me, you will be surprised to see how much time you really invested, even in the shortest of chases, while taking into account everything, not just the chase time. Like I said to you in another post, even hitting a survivor costs you time as a killer.
Part of the problem here is that you tend to drift across multiple issues without stopping to really discuss the specifics of any individual one.
I was discussing the specific problems the anti-slug system had. Then, you argued something that, if the anti-slug system were implemented alone, would be right. But the anti-slug system was not the only thing in this patch. So, I just pointed out that you are wrong in this case, as the anti-tunneling system also affects what you just said.
You can't talk about one system individually if it will be implemented alongside another system that influences it. But to be fair, that's BHVR's fault for implementing game-breaking systems in pairs instead of testing one at a time.
I mean, we've now drifted to talking about a bully squad when before we were talking about someone crawling to a teammate on gens
I said that because I really think you had never being put in the case of having one survivor slugged under the pallet with two other people trying to deny the hook with a full arsenal of items and perks. Because if you did, you won't be saying most of the things you are saying.
That's it.
Okay, so, let's look at that time investment.
Right off the bat the most obvious thing to point out is that, if it takes ten seconds to walk between gens on average, that means you have time to do an entire lap around the whole gen spread and still have twenty seconds to spare before the survivor on the ground picks themselves up.
In context, that's still a long time.The next thing to do is a sanity check on the scenario you go on to describe. In that scenario, sure, you're probably not hooking the person you slugged, but there are two things to also consider in this discussion.
1: This means you got to play out an entire chase + hook in a 3v1 and the survivor in question only just picked themselves up, meaning they realistically want to reset before getting back into the action. If they don't, and especially if they run into you again, they have no protection; they'll just get hooked.
2: This opens with the killer in an explicitly bad situation, not a neutral one. Slugging someone without knowing who it is you're going for next is usually not the right play, though I'll agree that misplays from both sides surrounding the last-hooked mark would make it the right call in a lot of circumstances.
Keeping track of survivors and knowing where you're going is part of good killer play, and while you do sometimes end up wandering around generators for forty seconds, we shouldn't assume that's the default and will play out any time you have to slug someone. Hell, in the broader context of this PTB, you HAVE other information given to you basekit to help in tracking survivors. Wandering around for really any length of time without knowing where survivors are at least likely to be is bad killer play, and while sometimes everyone does end up doing it if things go poorly, it should be acknowledged as a situation to be avoided next time.After that the next thing I want to discuss is just a quick correction - when I mentioned that the self-pickup part was fine on its own, that was in the context of talking about which other systems I felt would cause problems in combination with it. I'm not ignoring the other systems being tested on this PTB, I'm making a case for which ones I think would cause problems and what I think should be done about it.
In this case, the self-pickup is fine as it allows for plenty of pressure if it's allowed to play out fully, BUT the basekit Tenacity effect is a little too strong and a little too capable of undoing that.Finally, I have been in that situation before, and I'd rather be in that one than some of the others we've discussed. Three survivors crowding me means I have much more luxury to be patient; the killer's time investment only matters because of the potential generator repair done while they're acting. If only one survivor's doing generators, my time investment is less punishing, so I can play it much more safe.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997558#Comment_3997558
So, I explain in detail why both of you are wrong (to one of you, in two threads), as both just said the exact same thing repeatedly (in short, slugging is still effective despite all the things that make it not because you two say so), and explicitly said that I'm not going to continue repeating myself, so I'm done… but it's me who doesn't get it, and you're the one hitting a brick wall?
I love how some people's logic works.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997466#Comment_3997466
By constantly getting up after you "slugged them"? By making the second survivor that you hooked be the one blocking you? That's assuming that you had time to do a chase and hook someone else before the "slugged" survivor gets up… Have you ever played with an M1 killer against a bully squad?
Again, we had gone through all these "extra problems" of the anti-slug + anti-tunnel systems in detail in another post. Seriously, either your short-term memory is very lacking, or you really can only process one specific concept at a time.
Either way, it doesn't matter anymore because BHVR has already announced that, to everyone's surprise, they will not be releasing any of those changes in the next chapter and will iterate over it in a future PTB to make them fairer to killers.
Kudos to BHVR for doing this despite the backlash they are going to receive for backtracking, something that I would have never expected but truly appreciate.
See, a lot of what you says really heavily implies that you aren't taking into account how long ninety seconds actually is in this game. You say they're constantly getting up after you slugged them, so are you talking about perks to do it? Because they can't do that with the base mechanic on its own, it takes too long.
I accept that the anti-tunnel system is relevant, it's why we're talking about this at all- that's just the extent of the relevance. It's the reason you can't (or, more accurately, probably don't want to) hook the person, fair enough. It doesn't have any extra relevance other than pushing you to slug the survivor we're talking about, though, so we must necessarily be talking about the anti-slug system in this conversation.
Part of the problem here is that you tend to drift across multiple issues without stopping to really discuss the specifics of any individual one. I respect that it's a holistic issue you're trying to talk about, but we do still need to stop and do a sanity check on each part to see if there might be something being missed at any specific step.
I mean, we've now drifted to talking about a bully squad when before we were talking about someone crawling to a teammate on gens, which is a very very different situation if there's only one on gens and the rest are crowding you to bully you.
Similarly, when you say "the second person you hooked blocking you", I feel you're missing the important context that it's ONLY them you can't hook- you'd just repeat the process of leaving them on the ground and chasing someone else because only they have the last-hooked mark.It is a good thing BHVR decided to iterate on this with another PTB, there are definitely issues to iron out. I wouldn't deny that.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997454#Comment_3997454
I'm a little confused by your second paragraph, though. If you slug a survivor because they were the last one on the hook, don't you then go on and chase + hook someone else…?
Unless that "marked" survivor decides to become your worst nightmare by bodyblocking and not leaving you alone unless you slug him and / or hook him again so you get punished.
Come on, dude, we got through this already in another post. You are doing argumentative circles right now.
I do see the full picture, which is that someone on the ground for 90 seconds absolutely generates very meaningful pressure
No, it doesn't, and I explained how and why it doesn't thanks to the rest of the changes they had made!
But you know what? I already explained everything, and you are repeating the same arguments over and over again, so I'm done with this. I have a RimWorld to mod, so I will just let time pass and hope I don't get vindicated again in the future, as with many other things I was told I'm wrong in this forum.
But. You just slugged them. How are they bodyblocking if you just slugged them…?
It's after you slug them that you'd presumably go on to chase someone else, right? At which point the last-hooked survivor changes, so the person on the ground can be hooked or, if they were picked up, no longer needs to be slugged because they're no longer the one who was last hooked.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997428#Comment_3997428
Wasn't the point preventing slugging survivors till they bleed out while still allowing killers to use short slugging as a way to pressure survivors? Because that's not what the current system is doing, for the reasons already mentioned.
And I think you have forgot that thanks to the anti-tunneling there are survivors that can't be hooked again if you don't want to get punished. Your only option is to slug that survivor every time he crosses paths with you.
Or it would be, if it wasn't because again, you won't generate almost any pressure and only will grant him a free Unbreakable for the rest of the match. Do you start to see the full picture here, now? How is not only one thing, but that one problem gets bigger with another problem?
This whole patch is a mess.
I would argue the point is more to prevent excessive slugging in general, which definitely includes forced bleedouts but also includes killers not hooking until everyone's on the ground and just, broadly, any time a survivor's left on the ground for multiple minutes at a time.
That's a bit more consistent with what they did, where you can easily slug to avoid a flashlight/pallet save and you're only given a cap on slugging value beyond that instead of it being removed outright.I'm a little confused by your second paragraph, though. If you slug a survivor because they were the last one on the hook, don't you then go on and chase + hook someone else…? At that point, the "mark" on the last-hooked survivor shifts, and the person who was on the ground can now be hooked.
I do see the full picture, which is that someone on the ground for 90 seconds absolutely generates very meaningful pressure, and the basekit Tenacity part could use tweaking to make sure it doesn't undo that.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997395#Comment_3997395
Again, all your arguments can be answered with: Those 90 seconds are total time in dying state for the whole match.
So, if their team mate is "far away", they either get the free Unbreakable and next time it would not even matter, or his team mate will finish the gen and just pick him up instantly mid way while he built up 60 of the 90 seconds, meaning next time will only have to spent 30 seconds on the ground, and he will be able to pick him up itself the rest of the match.
So, no. It's not ok. They need to make the timer reset every time the survivor get out of the dying state, and they need to revert the recovery while moving. This way we prevent hard 4 minutes slugging while allowing the killer to still use it as a pressure method.
At that point, doesn't it imply that the killer is slugging them extensively multiple times?
The system is supposed to make that weaker, that's the whole point.
Though, in your scenario they're still on the ground for a minute before being picked up, that's a long time to keep a survivor out of the action.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997364#Comment_3997364
It's both, but the main issue is being able to move while recovering. Getting a free Unbreakable just make the strategy more beneficial as then they don't even need to crawl to anybody anymore when they get it.
Like I said, I already explained it.
Well, the problem there is that the Unbreakable analogue doesn't actually affect this scenario at all because of how long it takes.
If they're actually crawling to a teammate on gens, and that's fast enough to actually be worth doing over the teammate meeting them halfway, they're not building the Resolve bar. That's why the Unbreakable part isn't a problem- it takes so long that the killer easily wins out on time investment if it's ever actually used.
(Outside of perks, anyway, I've mentioned in other posts that some perks interact with this system in a suspect way.)Crawling while recovering is a valuable change because it puts agency back in survivor's hands when they're slugged. The concern is if they can mitigate pressure too much with it, and as it is on the PTB…. ehhh… there's a chance big enough to be worth talking about, but it's not guaranteed. It really depends on a lot of factors, the biggest obviously being "how far away is their teammate". Far enough and the killer's still winning out easily, close enough and the recovery part barely matters.
That's why I think the best solution is just to slow down recovery speed while crawling. It shifts the time investment enough that it's almost certainly going to be the better call to just go pick up your teammate, but survivors still have some options and decisions to make while they're on the ground.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997174#Comment_3997174
I already explained multiple times why slugging was an effective way of applying pressure in comparison to hooking and why, with the new changes, it not only is not an effective alternative anymore, but in some situations you can't hook either. Not going to repeat myself.
But I will say, that slugging now grants you about 20 to 30 seconds more of the same pressure that hooking the survivor will give you… if the hook slowly moved closer to the nearest survivor repairing a gen and granted the survivor a free Deliverance for the rest of the match if hooked for 65 seconds total.
So it is the crawling recovery more than the Unbreakable analogue?
I'm trying to understand your position, that's all. You make more of a deal of the Unbreakable so I assumed that was more central to your point, but if it's the crawling recovery that'd change my response.
Like I said, because killers can still easily slug and gain value with the Unbreakable change, I only think the crawling recovery needs to be slower than stationary recovery for this to be completely fine. That way, survivors can crawl towards a teammate on a gen, but they'd still have to sit there and recover/have that person invest time to pick them up again, preserving the pressure.
That, or potentially having crawling recovery stop working over a certain threshold, but that's probably overcomplicating it. -
@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997007#Comment_3997007
Until is the key word. Until then. The slugged survivor cannot work on a gen. Hence Pressure. Point proven.
Nobody has said otherwise.
But the advantage of slugging someone instead of hooking them was that it has the same pressure effect as a hook (meaning, someone should stop doing gens to go for the save) while not losing time hooking the survivor itself.
Now, and again, that pressure effect is gone because there is no reason to go pick up that survivor over finishing a gen. So, it will be better to hook him instead to make pressure… except you can, or you will be punished and / or survivors rewarded.
The only thing you are proving is that you don't understand what you are talking about.
The survivor barely crawls as fast as one of Nemmy's slow zombies. It will still take you quite a while crawl to the survivor. What's happening in the meantime? Oh, thats right. They are not working on a Gen. They can only pick themselves up if its been 90 seconds. So again back to the first point. If they have unbreakable then sure. They get to do that once with a perk. Still on the ground, still no hands on a gen, just in the dirt.
The speed is not the problem, only makes it worst. The problem is that the crawling survivor is moving at the same time he is recovering, while also building up his free Unbreakable.
So, again, the smart move is no leave the gen for the pick up, and for the survivor to crawl as close as he can to that gen while is getting done. Really, is not that hard to understand.
This is false. You stop the rescuer and prevent his teammate from being picked up. 2 people not on a gen. If he isn't going for the save yet then perfect, go chase someone, then THEY are not on a gen as well. Either way thats still 2 people not on a gen.
Again, you can't stop the rescuer if there is no rescuer. Because the smart move is, again, not picking up that survivor and keep doing gens while he passively recover.
Im literally counter arguing you bro. Im a killer main and your take here is wild.
No, you aren't.
And now that you mention it, just to have context, can you post a screenshot of your most used killer from the official stats, please?
You sound like you just want to hardcore slug everyone and if thats the case, thats your issue, you will defend this tooth and nail.
How, exactly, have you come to that conclusion? Especially when my only complains against the anti-slugging are the 90 seconds being global with free Unbreakable and survivors being able to recover themselves while moving. I'm fine with the other changes.
But again, to say that SLUGGING provides no real benefit is 100% false. Lets be so for real. I am not saying the change they made is perfect and wont need an adjustment cause I believe it does, but my point stand.
Slugged survivor literally=Survivor cant work on a gen. That benefits the killer. Theres no arguing that point because its a fact.
There is no real benefit if your reason for the slug was slowing down gen progression, and I explained to you why 3 times by now . If you don't want to accept it, it's your problem.
If the correct call in all scenarios really is to leave the person on the ground for the full 90 seconds so they can recover, isn't that still perfectly serviceable for the killer?
It's not as though you're standing over them waiting for the self pickup, you're presumably going and getting in another chase, and presumably attempting to get a second down. 90 seconds is long enough that you could realistically end that chase and hook that second down, at which point you can really do damage to the team's efficiency.
You're portraying a scenario where you effectively get to be in a 3v1 for 90 seconds and saying that doesn't give you meaningful pressure.
Unless the argument is more centred on them crawling to a teammate, in which case I'd personally say the idea is fine but there should be a penalty to recovery speed while crawling. Make them put a little more time into being ready to be picked up.
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Who's 'we'?
I'm pretty interested in the broad shape of the changes, they just need some tweaks to tone back a few problems.
This is the broad issue with the "devs don't listen" criticism. Listen to who? People have different opinions on things.
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Interesting, I wouldn't have assumed fixing this would actually require a delay.
Then again, I can understand wanting to be extra careful. It does kinda mean this patch is gonna be a little empty though, lol
We'll still have, what… new characters obviously, Myers rework, and a couple of the perk changes?
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@coldflame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996704#Comment_3996704
slugging is being removed
Weakened, not removed, and also not really the point I was making.
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I'm not sure I see that in these changes. If anything, BHVR want the subsequent chases to be more encouraged considering they're giving the killer bonuses to get into those chases quicker.
People overstate how useful tunnelling is for recovering from a really bad first chase, in my opinion. If three or more gens pop in your first chase and your response is to leave those survivors alone to do more generators uninterrupted, surely that just means you're giving up on gens and trying to secure just one kill?
To me it's slugging that would be the far stronger response, leave someone immobilised without any timesink to interrupt survivors and snowball. -
I think the average killer should be alright.
The basekit BBQ is great for the average player, it kinda nudges them towards good macro pressure in a nice way. The Haste is also pretty strong on the killers that get the stronger number, which is most killers, so that's nice.
The Pop is also nice, seems less impactful to me so far but we'll see how it is.The average killer, I feel, isn't sweating their ass off to win, so I don't feel the average killer will be affected by tunnelling becoming harder. I could see the six-hook penalty being invoked accidentally a few times, but that's probably about it.
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@Barbarossa2020 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995625#Comment_3995625
And if they blow toolboxes they could have 2 done.
So if i get a hook, i have to go find someone else so i don’t get a penality, and 3 survs can be on gens the same time and have no penality for it.
Good comps will either use the 90 sec free up or hook stages as a way to gain gen time and they get no penality for it. Why should they it's good play. But as a killer going for a weaker player, (and you may not even be intentionally tunneling) you're punished for it.
Someone paths poorly, they unhook infront of you etc.
my next issue would be how im supposed to keep track of who i've just hooked if teams run the same cosmetics?
As I said, toolboxes are a problem. I think they should be fixed.
When it comes to the rest, you're not punished for going for a weaker player. You're punished for killing the person who was last on hook, and you get less of a benefit if you kill someone before six hooks compared to now, but you can absolutely make the choice to chase a weaker player outside of those contexts.
(As an aside, if they unhook in front of you, go for the unhooker…? They're vulnerable too, they're animation locked.)
For same-cosmetic teams: There is an indicator for who was last on the hook, but yeah, that's always been kinda annoying and it will continue to be in the future.
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@Barbarossa2020 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991135#Comment_3991135
And if they havent done anything? Eg a gen is done before you've even gotten a down?
That's pretty normal. You don't have much pressure at the start of the match- especially if survivors don't spread out, the first gen being done about the time you get a hook isn't necessarily a good start but it's pretty neutral.
It's the future gens that go slower. You have a foothold to start forcing survivors to react, meaning they're stepping away from generators more.
Hooks are slowdown, remember. One person is immobilised and another person has to come save them- go get in a chase at around the same time, and that's three survivors not doing gens for a short period.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995117#Comment_3995117
buffed ruin litterally is counterintuitive with the new basekit pop effect
Well, yeah, it's always been incompatible with Pop while it's active.
That didn't stop the two from being a meta pair way back when. The idea then, as it would be now, is that Pop is your backup when Ruin gets cleansed.
The only difference between then and now, except for both effects being a little weaker, is that you don't need to spend two perks on it, you get one for free.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994794#Comment_3994794
Ok but lets be honest. How many killers will actually make use out of buffed ruin and oppression? And the basekit pop is honestly not too great. Sure it has no limit… but how many killers will actually get use out of it in the situations they need it most? That and got the new bardic inspiration like perk that makes gen efficiency better but at least for a cost and good positioning for it.
Ruin? Basically all of them. Ruin's a good perk design, when the number's high enough to actually be directly useful. It's a bit less useful on someone like Trapper because he isn't interrupting generators as much, but pretty much any killer that isn't trap-based can use Ruin.
Oppression… I think will still need builds to support it, but it is getting better in those builds.
The basekit Pop isn't super potent on its own, it's just a neat extra. Really, the best slowdown killers are getting on this PTB is the basekit BBQ.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994658#Comment_3994658
In other words, you are happy to have a conversation when you can use twisted logic and fallacies to defend the indefensible. I didn't let you do that and proved you wrong, so now you don't have anything more to say. Even less now that there is no more "we have to wait for the numbers" excuse.
Got it, nice talk.
Genuinely, if you want to discuss it now that we have the numbers, I'm happy to do that. Just tone down the aggression, that's all.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994794#Comment_3994794
Pain Res is now dead, merely 12% for all the time it takes carry survivor to Scourge Hook. Hell, what the actual hell.
Oppression's Buff is pretty useless, because a good survivor team NEVER repairs 5 Gens simultaneously. The correct way to buff it is to make it explode when kicked, not an easy skillcheck that's only effective at low MMR.
Ruin buff is pretty decent, but totem RNG really sucks, so it's very inconsistent unless you dedicate a full build to it.
My point is, even if all that happens is that Pain Res and Eruption become useless… they're only two of the useful suite of slowdown perks and we got basekit slowdown, on top of the killer's ability to get perkless slowdown being improved
I'm not saying there weren't better ways to handle it - I'll be mentioning Eruption myself in a post I'm planning on making - I'm saying I think we're still coming out ahead as long as the basekit slowdown is useful.
EDIT: said "useful" instead of "useless", lol, complete opposite of what I meant
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I don't think it's fair to say all regression perks were killed. Eruption does look pretty useless now and Pain Res might be questionable, but Pop is now stackable with a basekit version of itself and they outright buffed Ruin and Oppression.
Slowdown is still in a really good spot overall at the moment on live servers, I think we can handle two perks getting nerfed in exchange for basekit buffs in theory. It's a matter of whether the effectiveness of the new stuff is high enough.
Though as an aside toolboxes really do need to be nerfed soon now. They're the one remaining problem with gen speeds and it's well past time it was fixed.
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@Nick said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994131#Comment_3994131
It's only on fresh hooks, gets cancelled by a pallet break or hit and it's 20% of current progression, not a flat 20%. So you're reading too much into it. By the time you have 4 fresh hooks you're probably already looking at 1 to 2 gens remaining
It was clarified to me later down that it's current, not total, don't worry.
That does downgrade it from "entirely insane" to "pretty nice".
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993716#Comment_3993716
Well, we already have the numbers. And it is even WORSE than anybody could have thought, with a sprinkle of regression perks on top of it all.
Anything more to say? Aren't you going to keep defending these atrocious changes?
You're being very unpleasant, you know that?
I'm happy to have a conversation if it's civil.
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Some of those maps had really low density, so it does make sense.
Never really had that issue with some of these, though, was Borgo particularly bad in this regard? I don't get that map often, but I never noticed a huge dearth of pallets on it.
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@Astel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994131#Comment_3994131
I heard that 20% kick is based on current progression, so I don't think it's that great.
Oh, that would make a difference, actually. If it's current progression it's not as crazy, though it's still pretty nice for something you get without perks.
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Extra 20% on gen kicks is insane, no wonder gen regression is getting some sweeping nerfs. You don't even need it anymore for the most part, that's nuts.
Though, I do feel this may make Eruption in particular just not worth it anymore. The numbers obviously still work out, but it just kinda isn't interesting or unique anymore. My gut tells me it may need more adjustments.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993685#Comment_3993685
Now, second, the Trapper example. It's worth pointing out that this is a problem that is hyper-specific to that one killer, but that is a specific scenario worth considering.
It can be Trapper, it can be Pig, it can be Ghostface… it can be any M1 killer without mobility (in fact, it can be any killer, but those are more affected by this) that has to pass the opportunity of taking out a survivor from the game because then they will grant speed / prevent gen regression for the rest of the match, no matter how many gens are left. It's not my fault that you are unable to understand that an example of a situation is not to be taken literally. But hey, I will change it for you:
If you are playing killer and, for example:
- You hook Survivor A.
- You hook Survivor B.
- You find Survivor A before getting healed. Hook him again.
- You don't find any other survivor for a while. Survivor A walks to you by mistake.
- There are only 3-2 gens left.
Again, your options are:
- Ignore him and lose more time that you don't have finding, chasing, and hooking someone else.
- Granting speed and not being able to regress the gens left to the other survivors.
The survivor doesn't get punished for his mistake, and you get punished whatever you do instead.
Is it a punishment to be rewarded less than you were before?
Yes, especially when you are punished for playing well, and the ones rewarded are those that would lose the match otherwise (by, for example, leaving gens undone to go for saves when you have 70 seconds per phase and no need to rush it, or losing time healing after a hook instead of investing that time finishing the last 2 gens).
It is supposed to be a series of anti-tunneling mechanics but instead is just another hand-holding mechanic saving survivors from their own mistakes and incompetence. That's, again, one of the multiple problems with this, no matter what logic you want to apply trying to defend it.
The reason it's hyper-specific to Trapper is because there is, not to be pedantic, a giant difference between just happening not to find another survivor before stumbling across survivor A again, and survivor A stepping in a bear trap soon after unhooking. The principle may mostly apply across the cast, but it's both significantly more impactful for Trapper, and also missing a key distinction that I'll touch on in a moment.
But, genuinely, I'm fine looking at the other scenarios for other killers, so let's do that next.First off, the big obvious elephant in the room to acknowledge: When it comes to just not finding other survivors, the game is set to change so that's very unlikely to happen. Remember, the dev update also includes basekit information to help you get into another chase ASAP— these changes have to be looked at holistically, they're clearly all designed to feed in to one another.
Second, we're still not acknowledging the core point: We do not know if the repair speed buff is actually enough to outweigh having a dead survivor. It is extremely likely that getting a survivor dead opportunistically is completely worth trading away the remaining generators being a touch faster.
After all, there's a degree to which it kinda doesn't matter how much faster survivors can do generators if none of them have the breathing room to actually sit at one for any extended period of time. It has to be a really huge bonus for them to get work done in a situation like that.Again, this must be made clear- we do not know if it is a punishment. We do not know if it leaves you worse off than keeping that survivor alive.
If the number is low enough, it's a tiny bit of a comeback mechanic to stop trials from effectively ending too early but won't make a huge difference. If the number is high enough, we have more reason to be concerned about the occasional misfire or survivor mistake being accommodated for. We can't be conclusive about this until we know what the numbers are.Third and finally, it should be acknowledged - though it isn't the core point and isn't the main thing to consider - that you can still slug survivor A if it really comes to it. That's still an option, it's less pressure but it's still pressure. The killer will have options to deal with situations like this even if the repair speed buff is genuinely that extreme, or you'd be at risk of the other penalty instead/as well.
Lastly, this isn't a point in response to yours but just a reminder: This isn't necessarily a defence of the specific implementation of these ideas (mostly because we don't know the specific implementation), it's more a conversation about the ideas. Mulling over the potential problems and providing counter examples to those potential problems.
It's a discussion, about whether or not these things are problems. We don't have enough information yet to defend or criticise these ideas too concretely. -
@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993669#Comment_3993669
Your attempt to move the goalpost would make sense if it wasn't because being 1v3 is only an advantage for the killer at the start of the match, where 3 survivors doing 5-4 gens is hard to accomplish.
That's why, as I said, it triggering at any point in the match is a problem and puts the killer at disadvantage. Because with less than 3 gens left and 4 survivors alive, you don't have to kill a survivor and pray for them to snowball mistakes to have an advantage. You have to just to have a chance to make a comeback because it's almost guaranteed you've already lost.
Also, you cherry-picked the "repair speed buff" one, because you know that the other one is even worse, and you can't argue that it is a total advantage for survivors. If you are at 2 gens with 4 survivors alive and the only one in the second hook is the last survivor you hooked, or if the only survivor you found for a while is the last hooked, you can't kill him unless you can afford to not regress or block those 2 gens for the other 3 survivors.
So no matter how you want to look at it or what twisted logic you want to use to defend it. All this grants big benefits to survivors and hurts killers in many ways through all the match, especially those that are not high-mobility ones. That, on top of being highly exploitable, as I already explained to you in another post.
Hand-holding, unfair, one-sided, and totally exploitable. There is no defense of this patch, at least as it is explained in the dev log.
…Okay, I'm still interested in this conversation, but for the record: Clarifying my position is not moving the goalposts, and I'm not cherrypicking the six-hook limit penalty, that's just what this thread is about.
For the record, I do believe the other penalty to be more severe, but it's also the one that is completely within the killer's control to avoid- this thread is about how the repair speed buff may come into play without malicious intent, with OP talking about Sadako specifically and other comments discussing other elements.Now, moving on, I do have a few things to say.
The first and most obvious thing to point out is that moving to a 1v3 improves the killer's power at any time, and while it does scale down in effectiveness the more gens are completed, it doesn't take a particularly big hit until all the gens are done.
This is because the killer, in a 1v3, is capable of reducing gen repair to zero through regular gameplay alone. Hook, get in chase, someone peels off to rescue… nobody's on generators. In a 1v4 scenario, there's one survivor spare to do gens.
This scales to other concepts, too- there's just one less survivor to react to anything the killer does. You can snowball not because gen repair takes longer, but because there's just fewer survivors to juggle everything that needs doing.Now, second, the Trapper example. It's worth pointing out that this is a problem that is hyper-specific to that one killer, but that is a specific scenario worth considering. While I absolutely recommend changes to Trapper to alleviate this problem - I'm cooking a potential post that I want to make after I see the PTB and have a more complete understanding - it's worth taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture.
Most specifically, you ask why you should be punished, but that's what people have been attempting to convey to you. Is it a punishment to be rewarded less than you were before? Is it a punishment to get 50% extra power instead of 100% extra power?
No, of course not. It's still a reward, it's just a lesser reward. It still benefits you, it just isn't as potent as it used to be. This is the key point to consider, and I'm not saying you have to agree but I am saying it is the thing people are largely talking about here.The bottom line is two very important things, which I'll bullet point for convenience:
- Whether or not the repair speed buff is a punishment or just less of a reward depends ENTIRELY on what percentage it is, and we can't know that until tomorrow.
- An early 1v3 is so tremendously powerful that it's practically unwinnable for 99% of survivor teams. While the specific implementation is worth discussing, the general idea of lessening that is completely worth exploring.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993562#Comment_3993562
I already made the case for why it tips into the survivors favor both by explaining…
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993160#Comment_3993160
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993479#Comment_3993479
… and by example.
If you are playing Trapper and, for example:
· You hook Survivor A.
· You hook Survivor B.
· Survivor A got caught in a trap. Hook him again.
· You don't find any other survivor for a while. Survivor A got caught in another trap.
If you hook Survivor A again, even if you didn't tunnel that survivor in any way and that hook will be the result of their own incompetence, you don't get the "unique hook" buffs, you grant the rest of the survivors a boost on repair speed, and all gens can't be regressed or blocked at 2 - 3 gens done by now. So, you either ignore him and don't punish his mistake, or the game will punish you. Totally fair, not hand-holding at all.
Also, in the main post of the update, where I already debunked your attempt to defend this, I also explained some of the ways survivors can exploit this mechanic to gain an unfair advantage.
If you are unable to understand it or adamant to admit that on paper this update is the most exploitable, hand-holding and one-sided they have announced to date, giving unfair advantage and protecting survivors of their mistakes, it's on you.
The only good thing about this update is that it is showing who really plays killer or both sides and who is just a survivor main in the worst meaning of the term that doesn't even understand the game he is playing.
I think you might've misunderstood, no shade meant, so just so we're on the same page:
The thing being contested here is not whether it benefits survivors at all, nor if it might affect you when you're not tunnelling someone. What's being contested is if it actually harms killer instead of benefiting the killer less.
To illustrate what I mean, imagine some random numbers that are fully chosen here just because they're very simple.
Imagine that, when the game progresses from 1v4 to 1v3, the killer grows in power by 100%. Again, this isn't meant to actually reflect the game itself, just to give you an easily understood starting point.
What's being suggested here is that instead of the killer lowering in power by any percentage as they kill someone and the repair buff kicks in, the killer instead only grows in power by 50%. That benefits survivors in the sense that it's less damaging to them than it would've been before… but the killer isn't actually harmed. The killer gets stronger, just by a lower number. They're still stronger because someone's still dead, it's just not as BIG of an advantage as it would be in the game right now.
That's why pointing out that it can activate at any time doesn't make the case for it tipping in the survivor's favour. You'd have to demonstrate why you think you would lose power instead gaining less power.
(Though just to be clear I am ONLY talking about the repair speed buff here, not the inability to regress/block generators. Those are separate penalties with separate triggers, and I'm only talking about one of them.)
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@Mandy said:
Thank you for such detailed and constructive feedback!
Appreciate the kind words!
Broadly I really like what's in this dev update, but I do see some potential kinks to iron out- Sadako having a feel-bad moment with early Condemned is a good example.
You can probably expect some future posts about specific killers as I delve into the PTB, haha. -
@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993336#Comment_3993336
And answering your question again: Because it can trigger at any moment of the match, with any number of gens done and survivors left, and it will punish you for the mistakes of the survivors instead of them. It will put the killer in lose / lose situations while allowing survivors to not get punished for their mistakes. It also allows the survivors to exploit it to put the killer at an even greater disadvantage.
Seriously, it's not that hard to understand. You didn't even need that much playtime as a killer to know how this patch will affect the game.
To be fair, that doesn't inherently mean it tips in the survivor's favour. Just saying that it could activate at any moment doesn't even make the case for it lessening the benefit of a dead survivor dependant on context, which is the take I'd personally agree with.
I think it's premature to assume there'll be a lose/lose scenario here when we don't know how all of this looks. If the repair speed bonus survivors get for a death prior to six hooks is like, ten percent, it won't affect you in the least. If it's like, double speed, then we're looking at serious concerns for killers who end up with a death prior to six hooks because of survivor mistakes.
It's not even unlikely that purposefully trading the repair speed buff for a dead survivor would be worth it, frankly. You do need to make the case for why this update - before we even know the numbers, mind you - would tip the situation into the survivor's favour as opposed to tipping it to the killer's favour less. That's the part that's being contested here.
On paper, I kinda like the idea of that being a choice to weigh for more advanced players. Do I kill this survivor and snowball to victory, or slug them and keep the gens a bit slower?
We just have to know what the numbers are before we know where any of this lands. -
@brunohvs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993515#Comment_3993515
im not saying they are, i believe this can be a good change, im just saying that im not seeing same intent to the other side, it can make the game better to do this, so lets have the same spirit with everyone
While I see your point, I feel it's worth pointing out that we also didn't see this intent or energy for the killer side for a long time either.
This could be, potentially, the start of bigger swings to eliminate remaining gameplay problems.
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@brunohvs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993497#Comment_3993497
omg, killers cant damage or block generators for the entire match, survivors get MAYBE their placement told, after various seconds if they do not pretend they are doing something, but the killer? wow, god forbid no surv goes save the first hooked, because the killer is gonna get wrecked… very similar treatment… if we are shooting the killer in the face, lets get the 12 gauge for the survs too
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993499#Comment_3993499
oh yeah, very fair, we shoot the killers in the face, and give a slight slap on the surv wrist, but they complained and the slap was even made lighter, so… i still repeat, lets make it make sense, if its so problematic that the killer need this much abuse to be stopped from doing it, then survs need to get as much if they do the same…
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993502#Comment_3993502
even if they hadnt partially nerfed the crows, the crows didnt made the survivor permanently exposed, or gave the killer a permanent haste because youve done something, they slapped the surv on the wrist and shoot the killer on the face, for allegeddly the same thing
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993505#Comment_3993505
i liked that, youd always get one crow, and one crow does nothing then tell you "hey hey hey, we see you", if you were going somewhere do something other than hide yours ass, youd lose the crow… and if we look at this changes, if we are supposed to FORCE only chases all the time, its perfectly right, why are you hiding? get up and run make the chase, wait its a bad play? dont care, make the chase, thats what is being done to the killer
I think it's premature to say killers are going to be severely harmed until we've had a chance to test it all.
Very good chance, based on what's written in the dev update, killers will be absolutely fine. Remember, these changes come with killer buffs, which isn't always the case for survivors.
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While I agree, it is worth mentioning things have been done to partially address these issues already.
Crows were made stricter (though how strict they currently are is a bit up for debate) and specific immersing perks were nerfed to require more interaction with the game, and for genrushing, survivors spawning all grouped up is a pretty significant blow.
I still think toolboxes need adjusting, but that doesn't mean nothing's been done, y'know?
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@Pwny said:
I don't quite understand how people do not get that hitting a survivor who is not at risk of getting hooked is a massive tempo loss for killer. If you are an M1 killer especially, bodyblocks are an extremely powerful tool that survivors have access to. Surely we've all seen how powerful they are when trying to run to exit gates, right? The distance a survivor can gain on the killer after the killer has to go through an entire attack recovery animation is absolutely massive in terms of how long the chase can last.
This is why some Clown mains (for instance) run forced penance, to at least get some value out of the situation.
It's a tempo loss if they aren't giving anything up for it. If they're left on the ground and unable to contribute to the match for 90 seconds without someone coming off their generator to help, the chase extension they buy often isn't worth keeping them out of the match for that long.
If they just get injured or put in Deep Wounds, that's a lot more worth it, they can go back to progressing the objective afterwards and it's often a net gain.
Though, I do think everyone should keep in mind that post-unhook bodyblocking in particular is being removed in this PTB, so this is getting weaker overall.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993276#Comment_3993276
They often aren't two good outcomes. One involves progressing the killer's objective and getting a survivor one step closer to being tunneled out of the game, and one involves delaying the killer's objective and spreading hook states.
I'm not sure why you keep bringing up getting someone tunnelled out of the game, if I'm being honest.
We were talking about aggressively using/weaponising anti-tunnel, if you're mostly interested in tunnelling that'll never affect you because the defensive uses of those perks will affect you. The entire premise of the conversation is the idea that you're trying to chase someone else, at which point getting someone tunnelled out clearly isn't a priority.
Which is why it is two good outcomes potentially. You have the potential good outcome of picking them up, and you have the guaranteed good outcome of leaving them on the ground while you pressure their teammate.