jesterkind
jesterkind
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@100PercentBPMain said:
one of my best tips is to keep a pen n paper handy to record all TTV names and then watch your gameplay when you eat dinner. seeing your own gameplay does a lot to help you examine your own play objectively
Oh yeah, I love doing that. One part reviewing gameplay, one part seeing the streamer's reactions, haha.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3956382#Comment_3956382
The problem is that you can't get downs fast enough with over half of the cast to just rely on pressure. Once you're out of the "new player" mmr bracket, you can't just rely on chasing survivors into a 12 hook 4k. You need to pick your targets, pick your chases, and defend key generators. Sometimes, you need to remove someone from the game.
The post's still aimed at new/beginner players anyway.
But also, slowing down generators is necessary no matter where you are, and this is still the most stable way of doing it. I didn't bring up tunnelling in this post largely because I don't think new players should do it, and that'd overcomplicate an already long post.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
So… only play A tier or better killers. They're the only ones with the mobility and down speed to facilitate this kind of pressure consistently against good survivors.
This post is aimed at newer players, hence "beginner's guide", and they have the luxury of sucking equally across the entire cast.
Though, for the record, these concepts don't change based on who you play, they just get harder the weaker the killer is. The basics are the basics anywhere on the tier list and anywhere on the skill curve, it's just how much effort it takes and how much extra you put on top that changes.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955516#Comment_3955516
Yeah I understand your point, but I just can't resolve that the extra speed argument on any perk is always moot point, because the difference is only 2.667s additional over BK, compared to the 5.333s value that BK already gives... and BK works in every scenario.
So then you have to go to secondary effects... and every effect falls short compared to the fact that BK also saves a whopping 8 seconds on medkit self healing, and frees up a whole extra players hands for the 16s duration... thats 16s of value from a medkit+ BK. This effect is good enough to be a perk on its own, and yet BK gives a significant portion of other perks value with no set-up, cooldowns of conditions whatsoever. Remember no self healing exists for all these other perks... so I'm just gonna say NoSH as a reminder.
We'll Make It is the big loser, cause it only grants an additional ⅓ of the value of BK, despite being conditional and having a time limit. Totally shut down by slugging or SoloQ hooking too fast... and NoSH.
We're Gonna Live Forever is a contender, because the endurance effect is a valuable effect that Bktany cannot conpere with... but is reliant on the killer to slug for value, whereas Botany's value is almost always gonna be there getting value no matter what strategy the killer employs short of tunneling the BK player (and even the a syringe can do huge work).NoSH.
Circle of Healing is far to restrictive, take 14s to set up, however much time to run to the boon, then again, only saving 2.667s over BK and can be snuffed. Totally pointless to run this perk, especially since COH is a NoSH perk.
Do No Harm is no value on no hook stage, equal value on first hook stage, and again only the same 2.667s value on the second hook stage. The net overall healing time over the game is still longer than Botany in practically all scenarios.... and once again, NoSH.
Desperate Measures, requires multiple injures teammates 3/4 of them to see the same value. Unhook speed is nice but really other than making a trade easier when injured, it's just not got an effect that rivals the consistency of Botany. Though this one does have self healing though; DoSH.
Empathic Connection has a decent percentage of the value of Botany at 11.85s compared to BKs 10.667s, and is similarly unconditional. The aura effect is actually decent here to create and good value trade off... though NoSH strike again. The self heal speed is a major head and shoulders value advantage.
This is why I can't take the argument that other perks have their own value particularly seriously... the value of Botany is so consistent and universally applicable, that the value of it trumps everything.
I'd be inclined to agree overall, I personally value Botany very highly, but I do feel the need to point two things out.
First, and less importantly, there is room for personal taste in here. Some may find the way other perks work just far more smooth for their preferred gameplay, and that should count for something in these conversations.
Second, and more importantly, that was all true before the buff as well, which is my overall point. If Botany right now trumps all other healing tools, then Botany prior to the buff also did, because the few areas that the buff actually affects are pretty small and niche.
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@xGodSendDeath said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955561#Comment_3955561
Just giving my opinion on the best way to deal with these perks to casual readers as an average killer player. You can argue about each one individually being more or less responsible all you want
This thread is only about one perk, though?
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@xGodSendDeath said:
The best thing to do is just tunnel the first guy out as long as they're not a juicer so you can ignore this crap. Hit and run hasn't been this weak since peak CoH. Splitting pressure is pointless in this meta
…What does that have to do with anything here? I'm a little lost.
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955518#Comment_3955518
Yes but like I told the other person, it's like saying "just run shattered hope" for when boons were broken. You're asking killers to run and waste a perk slot on a niche specific perk to half counter a strong survivor perk. It's just not good.
Gift of Pain is nowhere near as niche as Shattered Hope. That perk doesn't even have an effect in matches without boons, but Gift of Pain has been underrated since its release, let alone since they buffed the repair penalty.
It's a damn good perk that also happens to counter this specific concern, not a niche perk that only has that one application.
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955220#Comment_3955220
So the counter is a scourge hook you can't probably won't even be able to realistically apply all of the time. Because scourge hooks aren't guaranteed… cmon man.
I've run scourge hooks a lot myself, especially this one, and it's pretty uncommon to not be able to get to a white hook.
If you're worried about that, Agitation makes that even less likely, and that perk's pretty underrated in its own right. I wouldn't say that's necessary though.
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@UndeddJester said:
Botany is the king of self heal builds now. Numerous amazingly good combos. My best thus far is: -
- Botany
- Resurgence
- Medkit with the 2 8 charge add ons.
Gives you 1 complete full heal in about 15.4s, and 2 heals off hook within 4.62s. In a lot of ways this better than the old syringe and 8 charge add-on bulld with BK and Resurgence, because you can heal yourself to full any one time you get injured, rather than having to burn the syringe and lose later heals.
I still maintain this is now the king of healing perks, and that is fundamentally flawed design, since Botany gives you access to great self healing and pretty much as good altruistic healing as any other perk all on 1 perk slot.
It makes so many other altrusitic helaing perks redundant, and also any self healing perks like Self Care, Strength in Shadows and Plot Twist basically meme perks, because they all pale in comparison for value.
Though I will admit I still have fun building around it, cause I can just not take a medkit if I don't want to play meta cheese.
I wouldn't go quite that far, I think Botany basically preserves its status as the all-rounder but I don't think it hardcore trumps all the other tools. Hell, everything you can do with Botany now you could also do before, you'd just maybe have to use slightly more expensive addons.
I also disagree that other healing perks are that bad in comparison. Simply not using your item slot is already genuinely a bonus, freeing up space for either the strongest item in toolboxes or more fun items like flashlights. It also must be said that Self Care and Strength in Shadows aren't outclassed by Botany because they are also improved by Botany- that perk is required for Self Care not to be throwing, and it makes SiS a top tier perk as opposed to just a quite good one.
I believe we've discussed this before but I think it's important to remember a lot of other altruistic healing perks do other things. We'll Make It is the closest comparison and all it really boasts is shaving a few extra seconds off post-unhook heals, but something like Circle Of Healing both has a higher speed and allows everyone on the team to sue it, and Desperate Measures has a potentially higher speed and unhook speed, which really isn't nothing. Empathetic Connection shows your aura so people go to you for heals, and Orela's perk I forget the name of scales to a higher number and has the skillcheck bonus, so on and so forth.
What I'd argue Botany Knowledge actually is would be the benchmark. It's a good high-ish number with no restrictions, and every other perk will have restrictions but provide better rewards in some way- higher number, extra effects, or both. That's not to say every comparison works out well there, but it's a reasonable position for a perk to be in.
That said, BK has been very powerful for a long time. It's not absurd to think its percentage might be lowered a little. I'd hope not, I love Botany, but it is plausible— and it won't have anything to do with this latest buff, it would've been justified for a long time.
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@Yggleif said:
Self-heals with botany got buffed but I don't think to a crazy degree. I think desperate measures and resurgence are much more dangerous. Like it's insanely easy to reach the 200% healing cap on altruistic heals now and on self-heals you can get to close to 100% with just botany, Desperate Measures and some medkit speed add-ons.
On top of that resurgence basically gives every person unhooking you 200% healing speed.
But it's not any one thing it's everything together is making healing the strongest it's been in a very long time.
Well, that's my point though, I don't think self heals with Botany really did get buffed. Like I said in the post, the only two real outcomes of this change is being able to heal with a medkit from a chest, and getting two heals without needing a syringe for one of them. The former doesn't really matter and the latter is, unless I'm missing something niche, just a flat downgrade anyway.
I would agree that healing is very strong right now, but Botany's buff has no bearing on that— at least, not this one. The buff it got years ago in 6.1 has a lot more bearing on it, lol
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955463#Comment_3955463
It just makes it better, because there's no negative affect to worry about. Which means it will be more common.
But you already didn't have to worry about the negative effect, it was trivial to circumvent.
I can respect that seeing it more might be annoying, but the buff is only incidentally relevant to that. If people had just decided to run it more prior to the buff it'd be functionally identical here.
Botany is very strong but it's also not that fast, it's worth pointing out. Resurgence is a far faster heal, and much more deserving of talking about as a problem than a consistent, lower grade increase.
Maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but this isn't Botany's buff being downplayed, it's just correctly understanding the buff didn't make a functional difference in the grand scheme of things. Botany is slightly more convenient to use in niche scenarios but otherwise didn't change. The only impact it possibly could have is reminding people Botany exists so they try it more.
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955455#Comment_3955455
The point is the base free 50% increased healing was already strong, it dissuaded people from using it due to the negative medkit affect. With that gone, more people will use it.
I mean seriously, it's free 50% increase healing. No specific scenarios required, no tokens, nothing. It's just free.
Right, but now it just sounds like you're agreeing with me. The buff wasn't a big deal and had practically no impact because the perk was already really good.
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955446#Comment_3955446
It's not just botany, it's also desperate measures. It's healing buffs in general. Though I do think y'all downplay the botany buff to an egregious degree.
Botany functionally hasn't changed, though. Genuinely- am I missing something about Botany that changed with the latest buff here? What makes this downplaying and not just accurate?
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@BorisDDAA said:
The only thing it did is make self healing with medkits faster (and of course you don't get screwed by botany if you use a medkit).
It didn't even do that, Botany was already doing that prior to the buff.
It only ensures you can use medkits out of a chest, and that you can get two healing actions from a medkit w/ Botany instead of one healing action and one syringe.
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@Lixadonna said:
Botany Knowledge needed some utility or else it was outclassed by Empathic Connection or that new Orela Perk. But now that Sable Perk is outclassed.
A little aside the point, but honestly I disagree with that quite a bit too.
Empathetic Connection is the one outclassed by Botany, really heavily at that. Duty of Care(? you know which one I mean) is about on par with Botany, and Strength in Shadows isn't really the same kind of perk + is extremely good as well.
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I also noticed this the other day, and had the same thought. At a glance I thought it was Small Game, which at least activates on boon totems, but even that doesn't apply to Counterforce.
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I have a thread about this myself, actually. It's my opinion that leaning too heavily on tunnelling is actually against your best interest as killer in the long run, and that's for two reasons:
- It stunts your ability to learn the fundamentals. If you're not exercising any macro tracking/pressure/strategy in general, and you're also taking easier chases by targeting someone who was just unhooked so you're developing chase skills slower, that gives you a very one-dimensional gameplan. This can, if you're not careful, lead to you facing stronger opponents and not knowing how to do anything other than tunnel against them
- It's obviously unbalanced, and inevitably going to get nerfed. Just better not to rely on a tactic that is, for lack of a better term, on borrowed time, right?
As an aside, survivors definitely do not do everything in their power to win every game, they just usually play at a reasonably competent level (at least when you play killer, never when you play solo queue…) with more upper-mid tier tools.
It is, for example, extremely rare to see a 4-man with a toolbox build genrushing you to hell and back. You might see one toolbox build, but very rarely all four, and that is what it looks like when survivors are doing everything in their power to win.
This is all coming at it from a different angle to the people you're talking about though. Their answer is presumably just "because it sucks to go against", which while fair, should be more directed at BHVR than killer players.
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@Yippiekiyah said:
The balancing is all over the place. Remember when they were gonna increase the base healing time to make hits feel more impactful but reverted due to backlash. Now they've buffed a lot of perks that increase healing speed. Need to make their mind up, does injuring a survivor feel impactful enough? Cause they already told us in past it doesn't. Throw darts at the dartboard and see what perks it lands on, coz it sure seems like it when perks like Botany are getting buffed when there are dozens of perks that are literal dog meat.
To be fair, they reverted that part because the other stuff changed in that update just wholly fixed the problem. Nerfing medkits and reworking CoH made injuries feel impactful again, because survivors couldn't heal themselves in eight seconds multiple times a match.
The extra buffs are also primarily levelled at altruistic healing perks, which further cements the idea that speedy heals should be less efficient overall.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955028#Comment_3955028
I agree that GoP is the only healing slowdown that is genuinely worth running atm. Make them choose between being injured and slower gens. The problem is, they can wait out the hemorrhage and 99 a heal, but nothing's perfect and most survivors aren't going to do that.
Honestly, the best slowdown right now is quick downs, just like it's always been. Yeah, the survivors are always going to be healthy ten seconds after they get off hook, but if your downs are fast enough, it doesn't matter. That's why I've kind of stopped playing Xeno and Knight and focused more on Billy, Kaneki, Dracula and mostly Spirit. I suck with Blight, and hate the Nurse's playstyle, but using the rest of the S and A+ tier killers means you can get downs fast enough to keep up… most of the time.
I truly believe that the best build atm is Lethal/Corrupt, Agi, PR and GoP.
I wouldn't go that far, other anti-heal perks do just fine against healing in general, and self-healing via medkit and the like. It's specifically Resurgence (and to a lesser degree We'll Make It) they struggle to counter, which GoP/WW is especially well suited to handle.
@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955039#Comment_3955039
Oh for sure you can slowdown in other ways, but when it comes to resurgence? There is zero counter to it, outside of proxy camping the hook.
See above: Gift of Pain/Weeping Wounds is a good counter, and others do exist in their own way.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955023#Comment_3955023
The problem is, instead of the after hook heal taking 16 seconds, it takes 6. Less, if they have Resurgence.
Yeah? That's what I'm responding to.
Well, eight seconds, and only if Bill gets the unhook. Then Ace heals stupid quick, and the other two can self heal at reasonable speeds but nothing crazy.
That's just that screenshot, though, my suggestions were broader than just that.
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I mean, you'd still be out there chasing a third survivor while they're healing, so you're still spreading pressure. It is weaker if they heal that quickly, though- Resurgence is particularly good at lessening hook pressure in that way.
(Though, while I'm about to help, I do want to point out only one of the survivors in that screenshot can heal in 3/4 seconds, the Ace running Resurgence)
If you're seeing this very frequently, I'd probably recommend keeping a counter perk or two in your build. I wouldn't recommend necessarily something like Sloppy Butcher or Leverage though, I'm pretty sure those numbers break down to not really matter too much in this context.
Rather, the perk I want to highlight the most is Gift of Pain, which I believe is now called Weeping Wounds. On top of it slowing down the heal and providing some progress loss via Haemorrhage, it also punishes them for healing up by slapping a genuinely noticeable repair penalty on them until they're injured again.
That's the perk I personally actually use, but off the top of my head I can think of a few other potentially helpful tools.
- Coulrophobia is probably the only perk I'd recommend that just slows healing down, since it also messes with the skillcheck needle and that throws a LOT of players off. Downside, obviously, is that they need to be in your terror radius, so killer/build/map specific.
- Deathbound punishes the healing action by incurring Oblivious on the healer if they split up. Not great, but not nothing.
- Any source of Broken that lasts a while (especially via addons) is useful here. Can't heal if you can't heal, y'know?
- Exposed helps cut down on it mattering that they're healthy, if you're playing a killer that can reliably capitalise on it.
- In a small way chase perks help here because it minimises the extra time in chase the extra health state brings, which helps you keep the pressure up easier.
Resurgence is very good, and the lesser healing builds are also pretty potent, but you do have answers. I'm probably forgetting a few, even.
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954312#Comment_3954312
Let's be real. It's 10 seconds. It's barely anything.
I don't talk about all slowdown, because the post isn't about all slowdown… it's about regression, because regression is the subclass of slowdown that I've seen actively get butchered over the years. Blocking and repair penalty were never the top dog and never really that relevant up until the more recent years of DBD, so I have no reason to speak on them.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954311#Comment_3954311
Same thing happened with CoB. It was 200% the whole time and didn't start seeing use until later.
Ten seconds is enough time to be pretty close to getting into your next chase on a lot of killers. On the slower killers, it also guarantees much less gen repair while you're getting into your next chase.
Then, obviously, you're in your next chase, so gen repair slows down by default anyway. It's quite useful.
I see where you're coming from regarding regression, then, that makes sense. I still think it's important to remember that other slowdown exists and is quite good right now, so you don't fall into the trap of thinking all slowdown is worthless, but I see what I was missing about your position now.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954315#Comment_3954315
The game does not need any more useless perk. It has way too many now.
…What does that have to do with anything?
Object obviously isn't worthless, so a perk that functionally does the same thing obviously wouldn't be either, and that was your position a moment ago.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954304#Comment_3954304
No, it doesnt make any sense. If people want to play stealth they should be using Distortion or Sole Survivor. Plus, the devs gutted Distortion, introduced a bunch more aura reading perks for killers and brought a very faulty AFK system because they don't want people to play stealthy, so people should not be playing like that anyway.
Object of Obsession does the EXACT same thing that your proposed Spine Chill rework with even the benefit of you seeing the killer's aura as well. Now for the 30 seconds of aura reading that the perk gives you if you are the obsession, most of the time that doesn't even come to play. Most of the time your aura will be hidden behind a generator, or the killer is facing the opposite side, or the killer is occupied with a teammate.
Neither Distortion nor Sole Survivor do this, though?
Object is the only perk that tells you exactly when your aura is being read. Distortion can work this way, but only while you have stacks, and in a way that isn't as precise. Even before the nerf (not gutting, Distortion's still quite good) Distortion was imprecise in this way.
Now, since Distortion was carefully nerfed to preserve it as a strong anti-aura tool, and the AFK system was almost immediately amended to make sure people weren't being punished for just playing stealthy, it's pretty clear stealth should still be a thing players can choose to do.
It's totally fine to think Object is still better than this proposed Spine Chill rework, obviously, but there's no issue with them both sharing a niche. Distortion, after all, shares its niche with three other perks, depending on whether you count OTR alongside Shadow Step and Sole Survivor.
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954298#Comment_3954298
The difference is that only one of the block perks actually means something. DMS requires pain res to be useful. Grim embrace isn't useful until you 4 hook. Deadlock is the only one consistently providing something and doesn't require the already best regression perk in the game to provide it's use.
But isn't your position also that there's only one good regression perk?
It still feels like you're putting a lot of weight on regression as a subclass over blocking, or repair speed penalty. If there's only one good one for each, aren't they equal and shouldn't we be talking about all slowdown?
For the record, while I don't think any of the perks I namedropped are bad, I have to push back against saying Grim's only good at the fourth stack. Grim Embrace for the first three activations enforces nobody working on generators while you get into your next chase, which is very impactful if you're actually capitalising on it.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954296#Comment_3954296
But if the killer is seeing your aura, why would you care that OoO is revealing your aura?
Not only it shows that the killer is reading your aura but you will see their aura as well
I'm not saying Object is a bad perk or not worth running, the risk does tend to be fairly low, but the risk does exist. Object is not a perk you'd run if you care about playing stealthy at all, because it's detrimental to stealth.
If you had an option for lighting up when the killer could see you that doesn't work against stealth, the people who like stealth (or just aren't confident enough to be showing the killer their aura like a beacon every thirty seconds) would have that option available.
Plus, since Spine Chill is a universal perk and Object is a licensed teachable, Spine Chill in this context would be a good learning tool for new players that they'd actually have immediate access to.
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954269#Comment_3954269
Because regression actually sets BACK the progress of the survivor objective. Blocking doesn't set them back, it just means they'll go to a different gen. There's also the problem that most of the blockers don't actually do that. deadlock is really the only one. Grim embrace is inconsequential up until the 4th hook. DMS requires pain res.
Wretched fate only slows down one person and even then it's slowing them down compared to forcing them back. it's a large difference imo.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954271#Comment_3954271
yes so it's a healing buff…??? A self healing buff at that. And then you have the buffs to desperate measures on top of that.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954281#Comment_3954281
I've started to see a WHOLE lot of botany. regardless the shift isn't going to happen immediately, it'll take time for people to realize just how busted it is. Especially resurgence. immediate 70% progress off of hook is ridiculous, it makes healing off of hook instead of taking the usual time, it's like 2-3 seconds. It shaves off SO much time.
I mean, what's the difference?
They both have the same goal: Increase the amount of time until the generator's finished. Blocking and removing charges have the same effect there, I don't see why removing charges should inherently be better than blocking.
Historically the regression perks were better, but that's just how the perks were balanced. Now the blocking perks are, arguably, better- at least overall, Pain Res is still the best slowdown tool. Either way, same result, the generator takes longer to finish.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954260#Comment_3954260
Object of Obsession already lights up when you aura is revealed
Object of Obsession also has the whole revealing-your-aura thing. Spine Chill could be an alternative that doesn't put you at risk, but also has lower potential.
It's not a problem for two perks to share an effect as long as there's something different about them.
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We can but hope.
Ostensibly that should be the point of doing a preview at all, the ability to just scrap it if it isn't working because they haven't passed the point of no return on the basic design and the work done on it.
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954244#Comment_3954244
Ruin sucks because the amount it regresses is inconsequential. It's the difference of saving 2.5 seconds of needing to kick a gen. But the regression itself, is abysmal.
Merciless storm isn't good. Thrilling tremors is nothing but an info perk. Wretched fate slows down a singular person. And pentimento has also been nerfed.
No, I don't think it's right that with the amount of regression perks there are, that somehow only 1 is actually good. That is not okay.
None of the perks I mentioned suck and I'm happy to back that up with some arguments, but the real thing I want to ask is: Why does regression get this pedestal?
I don't get it, sincerely. Even if only one regression perk is any good… why does that outweigh the multiple other slowdown perks that are good? Why does it have to be regression specifically having multiple options, and not other kinds of slowdown? The list I gave you only contains one regression perk and it still broke double digits of good strong tools. Why is it a problem that only one of them is regression?
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Reverting Spine Chill wouldn't be healthy, it did get changed for a reason.
However, yes, the perk needs serious help.
I've suggested before that it either become a "finish this action in the killer's face" perk by affecting fewer things with a higher number (healing, unhooking, exit gates- just not gen repair), or it be wholly reworked into an anti-aura perk that lights up while your aura's being revealed. Either of those would be healthy directions to go, imo.
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@Yggleif said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954174#Comment_3954174
Okay but you can get like a 17 second heal with a medkit with botany and desperate measures now potentially faster if you bring heal speed add ons. So we're actually not as far as old CoH as you suggest.
Old CoH was ten/twelve second heals on average, with eight second heals being very doable iirc. It was considerably faster than someone else healing you, and seventeen seconds is one second slower than someone else healing you.
You also needed far, far less investment to get those heals with old CoH. It was a regular medkit and a lit boon for ten/twelve second heals (one of the two, I forget how the numbers broke down to the exact second) and a green medkit + lit boon for eight second heals. Add in the right addons for the medkit, no extra perk investment, and it was even nuttier.
This was also back when medkits allowed you to get multiple heals via addons, moreso than they do now, which made those ultra fast heals happen more frequently than they can now.
Don't get me wrong, you can get pretty speedy self-heals right now… but it's both slower and with more investment than it was before.
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954200#Comment_3954200
Except they don't enhance it. Ruin at 100% sucks. Eruption is a detriment to use, it's not about what killers can use it or not. Any killer can use eruption, the problem is the regression it gives DOES NOT make it worth the fact that it eats up 2 regression events for one use out of it. The only time I ever see the regression events start kicking in, is when I use eruption. It's a detriment.
I never said I only limit myself to regression my point is the only other options you brought up were the gen blocker perks that are the same thing as pain res. The top of the top.
Because again, it's either the top or nothing because the other stuff is woefully bad.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954209#Comment_3954209
Why are you acting like the only thing I pointed out is botany?
Ruin doesn't suck, it just requires active gameplay to get consistent results out of, and keeping survivors off generators can be pretty hard for a lot of killers. That's why I say it's for the best to run it with other hex perks - where you're getting value no matter what - or Surveillance - where you're getting very up-to-date info on when survivors touch generators again.
Eruption does have that issue, yes. It's why I don't consider it very strong where otherwise it would be, on the right killers. I will say, while I do see the warning spikes pop up while using Eruption, I've never actually seen a gen get blocked outright. If you don't wanna risk it, fair enough, I'm just pointing out it has its own use case.
As for gen blockers only being the best of the best…
There are, by my count after consulting the wiki, six good blocking perks. Corrupt Intervention, Dead Man's Switch, Deadlock/No Holds Barred, Grim Embrace, Merciless Storm, and Thrilling Tremors.
Admittedly, Thrilling Tremors is sorta more of an info perk but it does block gens and that is useful for slowing gen repair a little, so it counts. It's also just still outright good overall.
We can add Pain Res for seven, and for the sake of meeting you halfway, we won't include any other direct regression perks.
However, we will add Gift of Pain/Weeping Wounds, Pentimento, and Wretched Fate for ten, because those perks are genuinely good slowdown as well.
If the best of the best is a total of ten perks, and we have less useful but still viable perks like Jolt/Surge, Ruin, sorta Pop, and sorta Eruption as backups… is that really a problem? That's quite a reasonable variety of tools, especially considering there's no real reason to run more than one or maybe two depending on what kind of build you're going for.
Add in that each of those nine perks has a whole suite of supporting perks that work really well for them, with only a little overlap for similar perks, and variety is really good overall.
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@Chadku said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954172#Comment_3954172
We've got Huntress' bloodlust perk and Alien's no bloodlust one which already proves that there can be perks that prevent one from working.
BHVR could make it so Pain Res has a secondary effect where for 45s any gen or just the pain res'd one starts regressing if the killer comes near them, so PGTW/kicking perks cannot be used on those.
It's already been done back then where Ruin & PGTW were the Meta, until Ruin got cleansed you couldn't use kicking perks.
I actually had an idea myself a while back, there's a thread for it I made still floating around - I think the healthiest way forward would be to make it so gens that are currently regressing can't be affected by generator blocking or by instant-regression explosions.
That sounds like a bigger deal than it is, because gens are only regressing if you made them regress. Meaning, if you bring perks for blocking gens or taking progress off them… you'd just not kick gens you think are likely to be affected, and you'll be fine. It'll mostly only affect you if you have multiple perks that would start a gen regressing, and/or you're out there kicking gens for the sake of kicking gens.
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954171#Comment_3954171
Because most of the heal slowdown perks are awful… and when you switch to heal slowdown. Congrats, you don't have anything to fight against gens.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954172#Comment_3954172
I'm talking strictly gen regression. Gen blockers are alright but grim embrace is pointless until the 4th hook where it's meaningful and DMS is only useful with pain res because it will force them off the gen… which is the one viable regression perk.
But in terms of regression perks? CoB even at 150% is trash. Overcharge is trash. Eruption is a straight up detriment to use. Undone was dead on arrival. Ruin has been dead for god knows how long at 100% regression. Jolt is only usable on M1 killers and even then it's dependent on smaller maps (on top of it triggering on low progress gens which eats up a regression event you didn't need so it can also be a detriment at times). Oppression is a fun gimmick perk that basically becomes useless against survivors that can hit a skill check (which is most of them).
And even IF we want to talk about deadlock, grim, and pain res + dms. That's still a part of the problem. We're talking about the top of the top. It's the top perks or nothing, because the other ones aren't just "meh", they're terrible.
Right, but my point is, why limit yourself to just regression? Even if all of those perks were terrible… they're not the only kind of slowdown, there are other types of perks that perform an identical function within your build that are much, much better. Outside of something like Undone, I can't think of any gen-blocking perks that aren't good off the top of my head— limiting yourself to just regression makes it seem like your options for slowing the game down are dwindling and worthless, but they're not.
As for regression perks themselves, they're doing okay. There are some genuinely weak ones like Undone or even arguably Pop, but most of them work in the right build or on the right killer- for example, while Ruin's by no means top tier, it does work pretty okay if you support it with other hexes, or with something like Surveillance. Similarly, Eruption's pretty decent on very mobile killers that can kick gens quickly, like Wraith or Blight. There are options, they're just not as crazy, no-effort impactful as Pain Res is.
Which, for the record, they shouldn't have to be. The bulk of your slowdown should be coming from your gameplay and these perks should only be enhancing it.
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@Yggleif said:
People will down vote you without backing it up but you're right.
The healing meta is here and you mention botany but desperate measures also got a massive buff and people haven't caught on to how nutty it is yet.
We're at the point where everyone can have old CoH healing speeds and it basically means hit and run is dead again.
We literally nerfed med-kits for this reason and I feel like BHVR forgot why they did that.
The problem with old CoH was SELF heals being stupidly fast, and we're nowhere close to that right now. Altruistic heals being very fast can still be scary, but it's not as damaging as self heals being very fast by a long shot.
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To be fair, Botany at 50% with the penalty and Botany at 50% without the penalty really aren't that different as far as I can tell. There are basically three use cases for Botany that are different now:
- You can actually use a medkit you got from a chest now. This is good, but not broken, they still spent time opening the chest.
- You can actually get two heals via addons from the healing action as opposed to one healing action and one heal from a syringe. This is… consistent, now, but not really better than before.
- Altruist builds got a bit better. Nobody uses these so it doesn't matter.
While healing overall is really good right now, I don't think it's problematic. Resurgence builds for 3 second heals only work twice and take up a good few perk slots/item slots depending on how they're allotted and everything else isn't so fast that healing downtime isn't meaningful anymore.
I also heavily disagree there's only one viable gen perk. It's already questionable to only look at regression and not other slowdown - as Grim Embrace, Corrupt Intervention, and even arguably Deadlock or DMS are actually the strongest slowdown tools right now - but even then, viable is a lower bar than top tier, so you can go as weak as Eruption before tripping it. You also don't need perks to manage gen speeds, and haven't done for years.
That said, there should be something to limit regression perks within a build so each one can be a bit more impactful without worrying about things getting out of hand. I'd definitely support that.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3953986#Comment_3953986
The same should apply to survivors complaining about solo q. Solo q survivors should have clues of where the other survivors are. They should work on their macro tracking, if they don't know what the other solo q survivors are doing. If survivors want more information on their teammates, they should be required to use perks to find them.
Therefore, survivors don't need more buffs to solo q, because they can just bring perks, or learn better macro tracking instead.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954011#Comment_3954011
Expecting BHVR to heavily nerf killer strategies, instead of learning how to properly deal with them, is the laziest approach to PVP I've ever seen.
I think you're aware this is bad faith whataboutism, but just in case:
While solo queue's basekit information isn't terrible these days after the HUD was added, the reason solo queue needs more of a leg up than killer does in this context is because the survivor role relies on coordination and the killer role does not. You actually can track your teammates pretty well with some practice and effort, but that isn't the thing causing problems for solo queue.
Now, don't get me wrong. Solo queue doesn't just need "buffs" in a directionless sense, they only need slightly more information to work with. Knowing what perks your teammates have and, ideally, some method of signalling who's going for a hook save would be enough on that front.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3953972#Comment_3953972
That is incorrect. The killer often doesn’t have any clues of where the survivors are. They might hope the survivors will be near a generator, but proxy camping is often the only way to guarantee where a survivor actually is.
And that is why proxy camping should never be punished. If survivors are allowed to hide, then killers should be allowed to proxy-camp.
If a killer player often doesn't have any clues of where the survivors are, that killer needs to work on their macro tracking and probably pick better perks to help them do so.
That much, 100%, is a fixable issue. It's not a game problem and it doesn't mean you have to camp.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3953959#Comment_3953959
And if the info perks don't find anyone, then what happens? What if the killer does has an info perk, but it doesn't show anyone because they are all hiding?
If the survivors are all hiding, then the killer should be allowed to proxy-camp, since it's not realistic to expect them to find someone else to chase.
I mean, yeah, at that point you'd go patrol generators just to make sure the repair's stalled out or see if you can intercept a save.
That's pretty unlikely, though. Maybe if your only info perk is a one-survivor reveal like Alien Instinct or Friends Til The End, but that's just the risk of those perks I guess. There are other options, and you're very likely to at least have an idea of where to go.
I'm not even weighing in on whether you should be allowed to camp, I'm just pointing out you've usually got better options if you prepare a bit at the loadout screen.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3953938#Comment_3953938
The AFK crows were nerfed so badly, that a survivor can hide for over 20 minutes, by opening 1 chest. Yes, I think the phase 2 anti-camping mechanic should be equally useless, for the sake of equality.
Expecting killers to move very far away from a hooked survivor, to find someone else to chase, when everyone else is hiding far away from generators, is the skewed take. Why should a killer leave a hooked survivor, to patrol the generators, if none of the other survivors are repairing generators?
Ideally what you'd be doing is leaving the hook to go to a survivor, and chase them. Patrolling generators is broadly not a good idea, in small part because it lets survivors hide.
If you're having trouble tracking survivors after a hook, bring some info perks, sincerely. They're quite good at the moment and enable a very active, always-doing-something playstyle. It's how I prefer to play, and I get good results from it.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3953249#Comment_3953249
what do you mean by "all the problems of a regular heal"?
To clarify, you mention that regular heals have their own bits of 'travel time' here and there, like moving away from the killer, or going into cover. But these aren't eliminated by CoH, so it's not like you can put these travel times up against the CoH travel time and have them cancel each other out. Even if you're in CoH's radius, you will still want to be in cover, and you will still want to move if the killer comes a bit too close.
Ultimately, I do think that Ampersand has the right of it in that the location restriction of CoH renders a lot of its benefit very situational or even null, and it actually makes it tricky to make good use of it, barring a few hideous spots involving verticality. A CoH in the middle of the action will get snuffed, and a CoH off on the corner of the map provides no benefit.
Yes, you're getting healed. But that's not a benefit that CoH offers, since the ability to heal others is basekit. You have to ultimately look at the numbers: How much time do you spend on setting up CoH and getting to it, versus how much time do you save on the heal?
And I think that, on average, other healing perks like Botany and Resurgence save more time than CoH does. It's also why Autodidact used to be terrible. It was really hard to even break even with that perk, let alone get more benefit than you'd get out of its competitors.
I mean, you very much can stack the two up. If you spend the same amount of travel time in both scenarios, but on the other end of that travel time you get a heal that's twice as fast in the second scenario, the second scenario looks a lot better. That's kind of the whole point.
Obviously, it's a lot more nuanced than that, but in general that's the idea. You'd play around CoH actively, having to just crouch in the radius and hope someone sees you is the risk for solo queue specifically, it's not the default by any stretch. You would use it in scenarios where you don't have to cross the map to do it, and you get to be vulnerable for less time because the heal is twice as fast.
Plus, something easy to forget is that YOU don't have to be involved after the setup. If we assume you're survivor A, and the others are lettered how you'd expect, sure- it's easy to see the value when the heals are A+B, A+C, and A+D going in either direction. However, CoH is also very much pulling its weight and paying for itself for any combination of survivors B, C, and D healing each other, especially if they're both injured and need to reset which is the situation CoH shines in most.
I'm not saying it's far and away better than the two best healing perks, Botany and We'll Make It, but it IS alongside those two. They're the top three right now, with Resurgence sneaking in for fourth place. The difference is not value or efficiency, it's ease of use. If you play in solo queue, absolutely, Botany and We'll Make It - even Resurgence - would probably be a better pick, but that's not because they're stronger, or save more time, or because CoH is some secret detriment despite how it looks on paper, it's because they're much more consistent and reliable in solo queue specifically.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3953181#Comment_3953181
I don't know why you would assume every heal starts at a generator, that's a bit odd.
So, I'm saying the default is that after a heal, you're going to want to do a gen. I'm assuming the killer isn't nearby/interrupting/etc, so the ideal case is to heal and then go be efficient and work on gens.
That scenario assumes that a survivor is injured and wants a heal, but isn't directly near someone to heal them. That's the scenario that current CoH is designed for because of the aura read part they added.
So if someone is injured and alone they can go wait in the boon (a waste of time) and then someone else has to leave the gen they're on to go to the boon to heal them.
I'm comparing that to "just go to the gen and heal there" which eliminates the travel time for one survivor, in fact, that leaves one person on gens while the injured searches for a healer. Barring comms, the ideal play is to ignore the boon, even if it's lit.
Now, you're right, maybe that starts at a hook, but the math doesn't really change.
You start at the hook, and maybe, if you're lucky, you are already in the boon radius (although the killer likely heard it and snuffed it if they were that close). So you have to travel.
And if you spend more than 4 seconds going toward the boon, and it happens to not be exactly in line with the gen you want to do next, you get the same math.
Just healing under hook, or going directly to the gen, or anywhere in a straight line along the way is more efficient unless the boon is also in that path.
Part of the benefit of circle was you could take a dead zone of the map with no gens left and make it a heal area. The killer isn't likely to go there, and survivors didn't drag the killer to the boon (at least not circle, exponential is a different story, but was never meta).
So, generally speaking, the recovery area isn't going to be in the middle of your gen spread to make these numbers work. You have to go out of your way to use the boon, and at that point you've gained nothing from doing that. You're going to be going a lot farther than 4 seconds in a lot of situations.
The perk is awful for solo queue, and "just meet me at the shack gen and I'll heal you up" is better in basically every scenario. Bond is better, almost all the time, and it's useful in more situations.
I think it's a mistake to assume that CoH was "designed for" heals like that just because it has an aura. To me, the reason for the aura being there is to smooth along its use in solo queue, more than to dictate how the perk should be used.
To me, the perk exists to make heals shorter, and to lessen the impact of travel time where it's necessary. That's pretty much it.
You're not wrong that the thing you'll want to do after the heal is a generator, but the scenario you're describing isn't any more efficient than using a nearby boon. Either you spend a little inefficiency to heal much quicker by undertaking a little travel time, or you spend a little inefficiency by running away from the gen you're next to once you're healed.
Or group up on the gen, I suppose, but that's also inefficient.
It's not as though you have to be standing on one spot on the other side of the map. Boons have a pretty healthy range and can be set up reasonably close to the action— there are plenty of spots the killer won't want to go out of their way to snuff a boon, especially since the prevailing opinion on boons is that none of them are worth being worried about. Sure, some of the larger maps can make that a bit questionable, but even the average sized maps are pretty easy to maintain a close by boon on.
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3953181#Comment_3953181
I don't know why you would assume every heal
startsat a generator, that's a bit odd. That's definitely the scenario where CoH looks weakest - start at an objective, runawayfrom the objective to heal, run back - but that's also pretty obviously not the only situation you'd be in, and I'd tentatively argue it's not even a common one.I think it's relatively common, really. If the killer moves to pressure the unhooker, the unhooked survivor has to find someone else to heal them. And they're most likely to find them at a generator.
In addition, any other heal where there'd be travel time is relevant here. Any time you run a few tiles because the killer's a bit too close, or you'd want to be behind cover just in case, CoH is coming out neutral on average for travel time and thus looks very strong overall.
The problem here is that it's not either/or. CoH has all the same problems as a regular heal, it just has one extra.
I do think that, overall, the travel time is underestimated and I don't think CoH is time efficient at all anymore.
Separately - I just don't want to double post to respond here too lol - what do you mean by "all the problems of a regular heal"? There being travel time on some heals isn't a problem, it's just how it is. You spend a little extra time to make sure you're safe when you heal, it's not an actual detriment to you. You're still getting healed, it's still more than worth doing.
Strict literal efficiency in generator seconds is very useful to keep in mind but it's not the only thing to keep in mind. You could forgo heals entirely by sticking on generators… but it's worth taking the hit to efficiency to have an extra health state. Making that hit shorter over the course of the match is, too, also very worth it.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3952725#Comment_3952725
on average very strong. It's pretty self evident why- it halves healing times for the entire team as long as they're healing in one area on the map
I'm going to disagree that circle of healing is good, but because mathematically it's just bad.
You're discounting most, if not all of the reasons why it's bad. Let's set the time to hunt and bless the totem completely aside, and just look at the travel time.
Circle takes 8 seconds off of the heal, but you have to be in a specific spot. Now, if you go to a gen with someone on it, heal at the gen, then jump on the gen, it takes 16 seconds off the gen time for one person. That's base kit.
If, instead, we spend the going to the boon, that person has to leave the gen, go to the boon, heal (8 seconds), and come back. So if they have to travel more than 4 seconds in one direction (and then 4 seconds back) they've lost all of the efficiency of using the boon for that heal. Same thing if the injured survivor has to wait in the boon for someone to come by.
This is your "as long as you're healing in one area of the map" that isn't being considered. It's also why people wanted CoH nerfed at all, because"heals needed to be less efficient". Well, it is less efficient than base kit now. (It was before also, because blessing time is always ignored when people talk about this perk).
Now, it's possible that gens exist in the boon, sure. Those are also likely going to be the first gens completed, because totems near gens being actively patrolled are more likely to get snuffed.
And again, this completely ignores that the blessing time is time taken away from earlier in the game (when survivors are strongest and should be on gens) and pushes it later. But if we're not even breaking even on the heal and travel time, the blessing time is a complete waste.
Circle should have been modified to have "bringing this perk allows you to self care in any lit circle of healing boon" instead. That keeps it's utility for solo queue, keeps it as a secondary objective that survivors want to do (instead of gens), and completely solves the "one perk for the whole team" problem. If everyone is using it to self care, then 4 perk slots are consumed, just like SC itself.
I don't know why you would assume every heal starts at a generator, that's a bit odd. That's definitely the scenario where CoH looks weakest - start at an objective, run away from the objective to heal, run back - but that's also pretty obviously not the only situation you'd be in, and I'd tentatively argue it's not even a common one.
For another example, unhooks. You unhook someone, you and that someone run to the boon and heal, you and that someone run away to separate generators. That's strictly speaking less efficient than healing under the hook, but healing under the hook is a risk and not something to be done every time anyway- it's not uncommon for there to be travel time associated with a post-unhook heal, so if we compare to any other heal with a travel time here, CoH is a massive bonus.
In addition, any other heal where there'd be travel time is relevant here. Any time you run a few tiles because the killer's a bit too close, or you'd want to be behind cover just in case, CoH is coming out neutral on average for travel time and thus looks very strong overall.
Hell, if you're in a SWF - and I will acknowledge this point is SWF only, this doesn't apply to solo queue - you can even coordinate meeting halfway in a boon, which is less travel time than one player going all the way to the other.
As for the blessing time, yes, that's a timesink, that's part of what balances having a zone of We'll Make It. Only one person has to do it, though, and if played smartly they only have to do it once. It's not a matter of whether or not "the heal" pays back that investment because there isn't just one heal and it isn't just for one player. This is part of why the perk's more consistent in SWF, but even a halfway competent team of solos will know to heal in the boon if it's close by, and every heal in the boon pays for the setup time.
As for your suggestion, if they made it so you couldn't speed up the self-heal that would've been fine too. The problem with CoH was always that you could gain massively fast self heals by bringing one or two extra tools, that's the part that needed to be fixed. Though, just being a zone of Self-Care only for people who brought the perk would've made it tremendously weaker than what we have now.
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The problem is, boon perks aren't bad. Bear with me, I have more of a point than just that.
Outside of the conversation about vertical range, there's nothing wrong with the overall framework for boons, it's completely workable. It probably could be changed in a few ways, but there's no pressing need for it to be changed.
The individual boon perks, too, are doing pretty fine. Circle of Healing is a REALLY good perk, Exponential CAN be a really good perk if you get a bit lucky, Shadow Step is extremely serviceable and potentially very impactful depending on context… and then sure, Dark Theory is only "okay" and Illumination is actually weak, but we can clearly see the majority of boon perks are completely fine.
What boon perks are is unpopular. In previous conversations on the topic, when I bring up that Circle of Healing is really strong, it's not uncommon for someone to go screenshot Nightlight's pickrate for it and post that, either implying or outright stating that somehow contradicts the statement. It doesn't, though- the perk's just damn good. In a SWF it's top tier, and in solo queue it's a little inconsistent but still on average very strong. It's pretty self evident why- it halves healing times for the entire team as long as they're healing in one area on the map, which is conveniently shown to them with a glowing blue totem surrounded by a glowing blue light show.
There are a myriad of reasons why a perk might not be picked much even though it's very strong. For Circle of Healing, it wouldn't be absurd to suggest that the need for setup, the restrictive range, the inconsistency in solo queue, and the fact that people broadly tend to drop any formerly-OP perk that get nerfed down to just "very strong" would all play some part in its low pickrate. Minus the last part, those all apply to the other boons too; Shadow Step is totally fine and a potentially scary perk to buff, but you need to set it up, it has a restrictive range, the team element is inconsistent in solo queue… so on and so forth.
Why this is relevant is because it puts BHVR in a sticky spot. Say they want to revitalise boons- well, they can't just buff boons, because that'd make them OP, but they also can't balance the boons to just be good because… well, that's where we are now, and people act like we're not.
Truthfully, I'm honestly not sure how you'd go about revitalising boons and making them more popular without just giving up and reworking them to something completely different, which I hope I don't have to justify as being a really bad outcome. You could maybe give them small buffs here and there to the framework and buff the two actually mediocre boons, but that's rolling the dice on people not just responding with "wow that's all they did huh".
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Healing is definitely very strong at the moment, but I don't think it's at the point where it's really problematic right now.
Pretty much all the scary healing tools are altruistic at this point, with the main exception being Resurgence which can only be used twice per match. I don't mind altruistic healing being scary, since survivors still need to group up to do it and they're spending perk slots that could make them more self-sufficient, and self-sufficient survivors are extremely scary.
I could see it becoming a problem in the future, but right now I'm actually pretty happy healing tools are strong, it encourages people away from the more self-centred strong picks that can be harder to deal with across a whole match.
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@TheGoone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951784#Comment_3951784
Intangibility like how? Like wraith where hes invisible but shimmers
No, just losing collision. Think like Sadako while she's demanifested- she can move through survivors, because she doesn't have any collision.
You'd still be able to see the survivors, they just can't bodyblock you.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951904#Comment_3951904
Well, yes but in that case, what about when 2-3 generators get done before the killer gets even one hook? So called "gen rushing" is not a problem, it's just survivors being efficient with their objectives.. So why can't the killer be efficient?
Well, first, tunnelling isn't efficient, it's trading short term inefficiency for big results if you do it fast enough, which is very doable in most matches.
Second, if the killer is in that situation through no fault of their own, that's worth doing something about- but there's historically been two reasons that'd happen, and BHVR already made survivors not spawn spread out anymore, so it's just toolbox builds left.
Broadly speaking you're only in that position if you mess up a few times, and while that sucks to be dealing with, it is kinda how the game needs to work.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950872#Comment_3950872
Turning a 4v1 into a 3v1 is just smart to do. There is no reason to spread out hooks. So, the way to fix it is to give killers ar reason to not tunnel.
As the saying goes, you attract more flies with honey than ####.The problem with that is, in order to give killer players something more enticing than taking easy chases into massive value from someone being dead early, you have to give them something MASSIVE.
If you give killer players overall something that huge, the people who already do fine without tunnelling are going to do even better and become borderline unstoppable.
It's much safer and more appropriate to just nerf the unbalanced cheese strat so it's not as easy and/or rewarding.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951875#Comment_3951875
But they won't be changed. And you know they won't be changed. I think intangibility is a horrible idea. DH for Distance was removed from the game for a reason.
What does that have to do with my suggestion? I still think it's a good idea, and IF it ends up being a problem for some killers, I also think it's a good idea to change them at the same time.
How likely it is doesn't matter. It's my opinion on how the game should move forward.
It wouldn't be even close to old DH, since it wouldn't be on command.