jesterkind
jesterkind
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@lord_of_dogs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926974#Comment_3926974
Have you tried playing killer in high mmr without slowdown? It’s not even a matter of choice, if you want to have a chance at winning you need to stack at least 2 slowdown perks, if it’s a lower tier killer you are forced into quad slowdown, otherwise the gens will fly and you will be left in the dust. It’s annoying for killers too because it’s not even a skill issue, people focus on tunneling and slugging without addressing gen rushing: the reason killers use those tactics!
I do play killer, and I usually only bring one slowdown, if even that much. If I do ever bring two, it's usually two that wouldn't be affected by this change, IE, something like Gift of Pain and Deadlock, or something.
I don't know if I play at high MMR and neither does anyone else. I do know that basekit slowdown is good enough for 90% of people, though, and for the 10% that might need potent slowdown, that's why I suggested buffing it after stacking it becomes a non-issue (hopefully).
Though, to be clear, that hypothetical 10% that might need very potent slowdown (really heavy emphasis on might) would have it anyway without any extra buffs, via Pain Res or Grim Embrace. Support that with good play and maybe a repair speed penalty perk and you're fine.
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Coming back to this after playing a couple matches, I'm very close to done after only four and that's with two of them kinda stalling out so not as much gen repair happens - which is relevant because my aura perks were Gearhead + Lethal.
I think this is a case of the high number looking scarier than it actually is, this seems fine. Weeklies could still probably do with some slightly more potent rewards overall, but I don't think this one is problematic in a way the others aren't.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3809541#Comment_3809541
Yep, it's always been that way since the PS3. It's why I don't really bother with console gaming anymore.
Ps4 started this for Sony, I had a Ps3 back in the day and didn't need to pay for online. Either way, yeah, this is a console thing and a huge problem but not one BHVR can fix lol
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I've often thought they should do this but with a per-slot "Randomised" perk, that looks exactly like the Chaos Shuffle loadout screen. +25% BP for each randomised perk, so not relying on any specific perk gives you potentially double BP gain.
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927012#Comment_3927012
1,2,4,5 you kicked it.
3 you kicked it or hit it with a previous pain res
Yeah, you could not kick the gen, but then you would limit yourself so that your own perks work.
Limiting yourself to lean into the perks is kind of the point. The point of the change is to make stacking slowdown less autopilot, and slowdown in general something you use more thoughtfully and sparingly.
So, yeah, you wouldn't kick the gen. The whole point of these perks is that they're supposed to provide more than kicking the gen. Those that don't right now can be safely buffed if they're much less likely to be used in concert with one another.
That's also why I suggested buffing basekit kicks, so that kicks are seen as enough without perks as well. The tradeoff would be very simple to apply regression without perks, or stronger regression that you need to manage a bit more with perks.
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927000#Comment_3927000
Other perks negatively affected even if used on their own:
- No Holds Barred doesn't work if the gen with the most progress is regressing
- Dead Mans Switch doesn't work if the gen they let go of is regressing
- Pain Res doesn't work if the gen with the most progress is regressing
- Thrilling Thremors now doesn't block regressing gens
- Grim Ebrance doesn't work on gens you kicked
For all of those perks, I have one question, and it's not fully rhetorical- I am interested in exploring the answer. The question is this:
Why is that gen regressing?
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@VibranToucan said:
This would be a horrible change. It would harshly nerf almost every single regression and block perk and make some borderline unusable because they have a decent chance to just not do anything when they are triggered.
Again, not on their own.
The only perks I could see that might be nerfed on their own are Surge (in an edge case that someone mentioned above) and, amusingly, Eruption, which seems to be a perk that will always get the short end of the stick.
For the other perks, though, how are they being nerfed? What makes them have a chance to not do anything?
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@lord_of_dogs said:
NO. DEFINITELY NOT. If you did this gen regression would have to be quadrupled. It would be better if they just doubled base regression and nerfed slowdown across the board.
What makes you say that, any particular reason you think this'd be too hard of a hit?
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926827#Comment_3926827
your not really recognizing the problem which is gen speeds if gen speeds were nerfed to where m1 killer is viable i'd be fine with dumpstering all gen regression
I disagree that gen speeds are a problem, but for the record, this change is very explicitly not dumpstering gen regression. Most gen regression/slowdown perks aren't even affected by this on their own.
This is what I was asking people to consider carefully before responding, it's not actually a direct nerf in a lot of real-match scenarios unless you're specifically stacking a bunch of slowdown.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926844#Comment_3926844
When I down survivors twice or more times next to a generator it doesn‘t give me anything.
That's a fair point, that'd be an edge case worth considering.
I already would've considered Surge a perk that could be safely buffed if this change happened anyway, so that's a safe way forward.
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@Langweilig said:
Surge would be so much worse, that‘s why I don’t like it.
I'm not so sure that it would.
The generator would have to already be regressing when you get the down for Surge to be worse, which you'd have to do yourself— and if you're the one running Surge, you'd just… not do that.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926088#Comment_3926088
DS was supposed to be used in conjunction with a nearby vault/loop. Running out into an open area with nothing, yes, would absolutely have DS not do much at all to help you outside of buying your team a little time, but that's using the DS incorrectly. You're supposed to go down near a vault or pallet, so once you stun the killer, you're good to go at another loop to run. Nurse could of course entirely disregard this - I still feel nurse is fundamentally bad design since she can pretty much cheat every balance attempt in the game.
If you have to have something nearby when you go down, doesn't that make it fundamentally bad at its job?
On top of that by no means being a guarantee since you easily could've been hooked in a deadzone, it also strongly implies you, the player, need to be capable of looping well enough to make that worth it… at which point you'd have less use for DS to begin with and the people who do desperately need it can't use it.
Three second DS really was not a good perk at all, in my opinion. It was only somewhat useful for the people who need it the least, at best.
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@terumisan said:
you'd have to buff the base regression to 400% to make this fair in any way and get rid of gen kick limit
Hard disagree.
You don't have to do anything to make this fair, strictly speaking. It's already totally fair for any killer to only be bringing one of these perks right now, pushing players to make that choice wouldn't break the game or anything.
I just think it'd be positive to also think about buffing base regression a little to bolster that fact. It's not a necessary part of the change or anything.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
Honestly with this approach the 8 regression limit could probably be reviewed. I like this idea, encourages game flow.
I'm not sure I'm seeing the connection here, mind elaborating?
Why would this change prompt the regression limit to be reviewed?
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Nice to see we're getting some challenges that push you to bring different perks/addons, at least.
This one seems like the effort/reward ratio is skewed though, lol. I've not gone and looked at the rest myself yet.
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/445165/choose-your-own-chapter
the miro board is a sight to behold, maybe there's a way where during this whole process we can show it in some version - no promises though.
I'd like to suggest: We should definitely get to see at least parts of this board after the chapter's been decided.
That's still a hell of a time to wait, but I'm also so curious about it…
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926666#Comment_3926666
yeah I can only think of 3 anti tunneling perks. These people exaggerate
I can think of six if you're counting altruistic anti-tunnel too.
Decisive Strike, Off The Record, Blood Rush for personal anti-tunnel, then Borrowed Time, Shoulder The Burden, Babysitter for altruistic. Maybe I'm missing a few though.
Where people often go wrong here imo is that they count things you can also use while being tunnelled, like Dead Hard or Resurgence, but those aren't really anti-tunnel so much as they are also useful in that context as well as many others.
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I think it's a mistake to assume every buff must necessarily have the goal of increasing pickrate, personally.
It'd be just as worthwhile to make the killer/perk/what have you work better for those who already enjoy it.
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I'm interested to see all of this stuff, especially the new item, that's very exciting.
Though, I do hope the devs fix maps alongside giving them that new functionality. It'd be a shame to have maps still fail to meet their basic function without heavy addon investment (or just fail point blank in the case of chests) and only get an item version of a popular perk slapped on top.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926006#Comment_3926006
That's just an incorrect opinion.
I could say the same about yours, friend. Do you want to discuss it at all? I'm open to chatting.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926006#Comment_3926006
out of curiousness alone, which two would you say those are in your opinion?
Trapper and Skull Merchant.
I don't think that's a particularly shocking answer, haha. I think most people are on board for those being the weakest two in the game.
Both have something going for them - Trapper has snowball and some nasty addons, Merchant still has pretty solid stealth to lean into - but they're just operating on such a lower power level than everyone else.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925984#Comment_3925984
A good trade - for the top 5 or 6 killer characters in the game. Which is less than 1/4 of the entire killer roster.
Nah.
Really, it's only about five or six on the lower end that can't benefit from the steady buffs we've been getting, and that's being pretty generous - if I were being as strict as possible without going overboard I'd probably say there's only two killers who truly struggle to engage with the game on a fundamental level.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924908#Comment_3924908
"They've been doing this in every patch for 3 years"
As killer gen regression that rewards hooks is gutted for the last year. :)
That's still pretty good for killer, to be fair.
Absolutely everything else gets stronger on average, specifically regression gets slightly weaker on average. That's a pretty good trade to me, I'd rather be able to run the fun variety builds with a higher potency than the same old same old every game.
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@CLHL said:
If you are going to argue with some random screenshots, at least try not to go from prestige 0 to 3 between them. And since the pictures are taken from some kind of video/stream, it wouldn't hurt to share with us the actual video to know if the start was as bad as I was talking about, or if those survivors that don't even reach 10K BP were tunneled. I can go trough long streaks even perkless, but that's not what I was talking about.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925895#Comment_3925895
You don't need to hold the killer for two minutes, because the killer will have to go and kick a gen for a measly 5% regression that will be reset in a matter of seconds. You can't prevent them from eventually being completed, since the time you spend traversing the map is greater than the regression you can apply.
It happens more than it should and in many occasions it is not even intentional. This leads to matches in which you escape against killers who most likely would have destroy you in a direct confrontation, but you go like "Well, that was an easy match", when it was just an unfavorable start.
I mean, you do have to, that's numerically how long it'd take. 90 seconds for each individual gen (done at the same time) plus 20 seconds for splitting up is 110 seconds, just shy of two minutes.
Obviously you can't reliably stop any gen from being done, but you do have some control over how long it takes, broadly speaking. Survivors spawning split up made matches unfair, but that's being fixed soon, thankfully.
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@SoGo said:
Yes, yes and yes.
Agree with all 3 suggestions.
Just one part I disagree on, I think that making lore not reliant on Master Challenges is a good thing, and it should be it's own thing when it comes back.
I'd also be fine with lore just being available as it drops, too, as long as it does come back. I just think that'd be a nice way to evoke the old system while making it significantly easier to access.
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@CLHL said:
You don't need perks or toolboxes with the best addons. All you need to genrush is to split around at the beginning of the match so 3 non-adjacent generators are completed at the end of the first chase. If you don't have Pain Resonance or a killer with high mobility, that game is problably already over. Those saying that base regression is enough, I would like to see is this situations, turning their words into evidence.
Assuming roughly 15-20 seconds for travel time to split up (as survivors are going to be spawning together every time soon enough), the first chase would have to take almost two full minutes in order for that to work out the way you're describing.
That's not impossible, sure, but there are so many points of failure. If the killer drops chase to pressure someone else off gens, you only get two done before first hook. If the killer gets the first down quickly, you don't get any done before the first hook. If the first chase does take over two minutes but the survivor being chased uses up all the resources for that half of the map, you get three gens in exchange for probably losing the game.
Don't get me wrong, splitting up is the right call and efficient play, but calling it "genrushing" when toolbox builds exist is a huge stretch in my opinion. I don't see the value of a term that ranges from "good play" to "overwhelmingly, disgustingly overpowered" with zero distinction, personally, that's always my hangup with this claim.
As an aside, it's not basekit regression that's strong enough, it's basekit slowdown. You slow the gens down by playing well and spreading pressure, you don't even need to kick gens for that to work out on paper.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925865#Comment_3925865
Fundimentally, I think it is an entirely stupid argument to have. The killers objective is to kill, period. The survivors objective is to escape, period. There is nothing inherently wrong with either side trying to complete their objective as efficiently as they can as dragging your feet increases the chance that you lose. People want to win, and wanting to win is not a bad thing.
What is wrong is when BhVR does repeated nerfs to the only really impactful perks one side has to slow the game down so they can come back and complete their objective, and not touch the objectives on the other side. Notice how in no way am I blaming survivors for rushing gens. Survivor gameplay in dbd is bad there is allmost nothing else to do, so blaming survivors for just rushing the objective is just flat out stupid.
It is entirely fair to talk about how fast survivors complete their objective vs how fast the killer can build pressure and complete theirs though. Dismissing complaints that gens fly too quickly after numerous nerfs to gen slowdown is where I take issue.I mean, yeah, the killer's objective is to kill, but if they're able to do that too quickly with too little counterplay, that's a problem. That's why tunnelling needs changes.
As for not touching the objectives on the other side, they did. Three years ago, in patch 6.1.0. They haven't done it since then because there generally hasn't been any need to, the base progression speed of generators isn't really a problem anymore. If there are problems, it comes from the other side of the equation (how well killers can perform, most typically stymied by maps or specific perk combos but occasionally from their own power level), or from progression tools.
Now that we've narrowed it down that far, we're back on track for what a reasonable complaint would look like - if you wanna say toolboxes are extremely overdue for a rework because they've been problematic for years, I'm on board, I'll agree with you. You just do need to be that specific or all you're complaining about is your opponents doing their objective.
The fact of the matter is, if you want to talk about how fast survivors complete their objective vs how fast the killer can build pressure, the first part of that isn't the problem anymore, not for a long time now. Where problems exist, it's with the other half- with how fast/effectively killers can create their pressure. For some killers, on some maps, there are some problems there.
It's not a problem because of slowdown perks being nerfed, though, they're not supposed to be the main source of pressure and they already aren't for a good chunk of the cast at this point. It's more to do with how well a killer's power can engage with the fundamentals of the game, or how the resources/layout of a map are constructed. If those two things don't get in your way, you don't need slowdown perks, they're just nice to have.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925845#Comment_3925845
you are saying it is not fair to complain about survivor gen efficiency. However, it is apparently OK for survivors to complain about the killer efficiently completing their objective. That is a pretty textbook example of a double standard.
I mean, you're cutting out a lot of context there.
Like, I do think it's okay to complain about survivor gen efficiency… when it's a problem, which is not just "survivors are broadly doing gens if the killer isn't making them do something else". It'd be completely different to complain about survivors all spawning spread out, or all/most using toolbox builds— I've done that before in the past myself, because those things are genuinely problematic.
Similarly, we're not talking about killers just being efficient, either. For starters, tunnelling isn't efficient at all to begin with, it's just unbalanced enough to still be a winning play, but even if it were- it's a specific kind of efficient play that involves leveraging basekit problems.
So, in short, I am saying those two things, because the context reveals they're not actually the same thing at all.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925836#Comment_3925836
I disagree with you, it is a double standard.
How so? What makes it a double standard?
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925785#Comment_3925785
They are still not wrong since that is basically what is going on here.
Again, it's not a double standard.
One is complaints about a genuine balance problem, the other is complaints about the basic gameplay loop. They're not the same thing.
There are ways of complaining about gen speeds that are fair, but just talking about survivors being efficient in a general sense isn't it.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925794#Comment_3925794
so are you implying that tunneling is just an easy OP strategy that anyone can win with by saying it is unbalanced? because unless you are playing a killer above A tier, tunneling is actually hard if you would like to fathom that due to the amount of endurance, body blocks, and other mechanics you must push through.
and ok, you are right. they simply dont compare. so when I load into the match as ghostface or trickster and see three survivors split up on three generators I can rest assured that it is balanced because they didn't bring a specific build. are you seriously saying that the only way gen speeds can be unfair is when survivors bring specific builds like 4 BNPs? because that tells me everything I need to knowNo, but I am stating explicitly that it's easier than the alternatives, and it is unbalanced. It warrants changes.
Survivors spawning split up is another edge case where you can have trouble with generators, but I do feel the need to point out two things:
1: They're fixing that in the QoL roadmap, so it's soon to be a moot point.
2: It's not generator speeds that cause that, it's early generator efficiency. It's a small distinction but it's very important, because if survivors spawn together then speeds aren't a problem.
As a final point, the build can be broader than specifically BNPs. A good toolbox with one or two supporting perks is enough to cause serious issues with gen speeds.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925785#Comment_3925785
yeah tbh if the changes actually change anything toolboxes, gen progression perks, and base heal speed should probably be looked at. Maybe rework anti-tunnel perks if anti-tunnel actually does its job. It’s going to further drive Higher tiered killers up, so I’m more in the buff the weaker killer camp to keep up than nerf survivors and shifting around power more, when they can just buff weaker killers to keep up in some way.
Toolboxes for sure, I don't think the other two are a problem necessarily. Even if you stack a whole build dedicated to gen speed perks, you get half of what a toolbox gives you, and that's only on specific gens after spending time setting it up.
Base heal speed is definitely not a problem. Heal speed increases… could develop into a problem but I don't think I see one with it now.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925785#Comment_3925785
im not phrasing it in a very aggressive way lmao… when the killer goes for their objective quickly in response to survivors doing the same thing it is seen as a problem that must need fixing with 2 million new meta anti-tunnel perks and mechanics. if you ever complain about it as killer you are gaslit by others who will tell you you're just a bad player and those strategies are never needed ever.
its funny not only due to the fact that the same treatment (behavior-wise and balance wise) is NEVER given towards survivors, but in fact killers are blamed for complaining about survivors doing their objective quickly. it is literally never the survivor's faultI just explained why that's not a double standard, yeah.
Killers going for their objective quickly is unbalanced on a system-mechanics level.
Survivors going for their objective quickly is unbalanced only if they bring a specific build.
Complaints about those things are completely valid as long as they're levelled at the thing that's actually unbalanced.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925752#Comment_3925752
survivors complain about killer going for objective as quick as possible = reasonable, here is 700 anti-tunnel and anti-slug and anti-everything that the killer can use to gain leverage on survivors
killers complaining about survivor efficiency = killers fault, stop complaining, what else are survivors supposed to do
lolYou're phrasing it in a very aggressive way but like… yes?
It is reasonable to be annoyed at killers leveraging a basekit problem to get people out ASAP, and it's not super reasonable to be annoyed at survivors for just doing their objective normally.
The better comparison to tunnelling would be survivors bringing toolbox builds, because they're are massively unbalanced and give huge reward for little effort. Complaining about that would be reasonable, complaining about survivors just generally being efficient isn't, really.
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It'd never happen, but my dream license is the web novel Worm.
Taylor would make such a good killer.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925360#Comment_3925360
Gen defense is very, very weak right now though and thats one of the fundimental problems with the games balance at this point. It is part of the reason people started slugging so much in recent months. That and to avoid activating the strongest survivor perks in the game which arent terribly fun to play against IMO. Also, because gen defense is so weak, most killers dont really have time to spend significant portions of the match carrying survivors to hooks.
Some killers may have slugged and tunneled before gen defense was crippled but the thing no one wants to talk about is that there is a huge difference between want to and have to. THe people who wanted to do those things have allways done them, but you saw a huge increase in slugging and tunneling because the people who didnt want to now had to.
Also the same thing could be said of survivors, because they leverage fundamentally unfair scenarios against the killer too.I don't think gen defence is weak, at least not overall.
The perks are weaker, but even then, most of them work perfectly well as long as you're using them to support basekit slowdown, not replace it.
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925360#Comment_3925360
Except "Spreading pressure” is literally the combination of gen defense, proxy-camping, injure/down/slugging, everything that ACTUALLY hinders generator progress
Of course you can improve general game sense like knowing spawn location learning chase skill and all such, but those really aren't "strategy" imo, viable basic strategy in this game is always one of: snowball and slug-all, tunnel one quickly, 3 gen complete defense, or literally just killing everyone super quick to the point hook itself will be "spread pressure", And they are dumbing down first three while keeping last one which is most difficult to do
Biggest chance would be it won't be something THAT big just like abandon feature, I guess
Spreading pressure is not those things, no.
Spreading pressure, at least in my eyes, is best defined as the following: "Forcing or heavily encouraging multiple survivors at once to do something that isn't gen repair".
This derives from the best (imo) definition of just pressure, which is "a survivor that isn't doing gens".
So, camping is the exact opposite, you're only occupying one survivor with that. Spreading pressure post hook is getting into another chase as quickly as possible, so three survivors are occupied when one goes for the save. That's the most basic, barebones version of spreading pressure any killer can engage with if they're playing well (though how well is the minimum tends to be what separates killers in strength), but if you think something else counts for that definition, it probably does.
Getting better at this would involve a whole lot of things, but one of the most important is knowing where survivors probably are. This can be bolstered with info perks, and I recommend everyone run them, but it's also a basekit skill to hone as you get better. If you're wandering around without being in chase or heading towards a likely chase, you're probably doing something wrong, with some exceptions.
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@Neaxolotl said:
Honestly I don't really know what other strategies to use when tunneling isn't allowed, camping isn't allowed, gen defense isn't allowed, and even slugging isn't allowed?
Guess simply running around aimlessly and hitting anything you see is the only thing killers are allowed now? I'm not opposed to the idea as that's what I have most fun with, but it'd require massive amount of buffs to actually work for vast majority of killers which is sub B tier
The most straightforward answer here is just, spreading pressure and utilising macro strategies (EG, zoning with pallet breaks, creating and capitalising on deadzones, approaching from odd angles to surprise survivors, using utility perks for opening up new options, etcetera).
There's a lot more to the killer experience than trying to leverage unfair scenarios to your benefit as much as possible, it is possible to hone fundamental skills that aren't problematic.
Though, I have to imagine BHVR aren't going to remove slugging entirely, if they're even addressing at all (because as a reminder they called the abandon feature anti-slugging lol) they're probably looking at trying to slug everyone before you ever start hooking.
Also obviously gen defence is allowed.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925314#Comment_3925314
Survivors would win\lose\tie together. Everyone still gets their usual performance bonuses like Boldness, Brutality, etc. 3+ escapes is a win for the survivors (get a win bp bonus). 2 escapes would tie with the killer (a tie bp bonus, less than a win but greater than a loss). 0-1 escapes would be a survivor loss. The endscreen would declare whether the killer wins, if there's a tie, or if the survivors won. Essentially, shift away from individual win conditions and instead as a team win condition. For example, if you died, but your fellow survivors managed to get a 3 man out, you still win.
As for what's the point of the last survivor if 3 survivors have been sacrificed, hatch\gate escape would at least give him a little BP incentive to stay alive and escape for a little extra BP (consider it a sole survivor BP bonus or something), but that extra BP probably only makes sense to kick in if in fact the other 3 survivors have been killed - otherwise, hatch\gate is just another avenue of escape (ie 3 survivors escape through the gate, and the hatch spawns is just effectively "another gate", but if everyone has died, and you escape through the hatch or out a gate, you'd get a sole survivor bonus). Alternatively, once 3 survivors are sacrificed, the match could just end, but I'm not so sure how I feel about that. Could have an image of 3 hooked survivors with the final survivor on their knees, head bowed, and hands overing their eyes with the killer ominously staring in the distance or something. /shrug
Long story short, survivors would need to work together for their wins, and individual win conditions would no longer be a thing. Survivors all win together or lose together.
AS FOR MMR ADJUSTMENTS, any kind of ranking structure (MMR included) by design only care about one thing - balancing future matches. This is entirely unrelated to win\loss conditions. In DBD, for example, escaping through a hatch is a survivor win, but to avoid MMR being unintentionally boosted due to a random chance escape, hatch escapes are treated as MMR neutral despite the survivor escaping. With that in mind, MMR adjustments would preferably be done at a personal performance level. If you personally did well even if the team lost, your MMR can still go up. If you were worthless and essentially AFK'ed all match and your team still won, your MMR could still go down. I believe the devs have stated that MMR adjustments are changing soon, so it wouldn't surprise me if this is already being considered. EITHER THAT, or just make it more simple by a win boosting MMR, a tie being neutral, and losing decreasing MMR - that's how pretty much every other game plays with the disadvantage that you're at the mercy of the quality of your teammates. Rainbow Six Siege, Overwatch, and so on all go the "simple" MMR adjustment route, but it can be frustrating to lose "ranking" because your team sucked. That's why I prefer personal performance MMR adjustments.
I see the ideal outcome, but I'm just not sure how you'd achieve that, I'm not sure what changes you'd make.
Would it just be the end screen being changed to outright saying "You win/lose/draw"?
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@RpTheHotrod said:
Hey @jesterkind As always, good to see you in a discussion. The quote thing is bugged out, but this is in response to you.
Are you asking how to change the win condition for how it is now to the 2nd option where the survivors are a team that wins and loses together?
Yeah, that's the part I'm curious about. What would you change to make the win condition team-based for survivors?
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925193#Comment_3925193
The first scenario is how the game currently is. And for the killer to be considered as getting a win, he needs at least 3 kills. Getting a single kill isn't a win. It's an asymmetrical system, so a win condition for one side doesn't mean it's the same condition for the other. You cannot tell me with a straight face that you believe if 3 survivors escape and the killer kills one that you declare the killer a winner. Even the end of the match shows the message that the entity is displeased. If you ask anyone here what the win condition for the killer is, no one will say getting one kill as you're suggesting.
What would need to chsnge to make the second scenario happen is for BHVR to change the win condition for survivors where they all lose if 0-1 escapes happen, they tie with the killer if 2 escape, and they all win if they have at least escapes (including a single survivor that might die, they'd still win since their team won). This would also encourage survivors to work together instead of an every man for themselves mentality. That trio will want to help ensure that solo queue survivor since helping one person is helping ensure the entire team wins. No more individual wins (and frankly, every man for themselves perks would hopefully get reworked like sole survivor that actively discourages working against working with other survivors. BHVR has even had advertisements asking if you as a survivor will go at it alone, or will you help other survivors). On the killer side, they would need to change where the killer can actually get a tie with a 2k which currently isn't a thing.
As a general reminder. MMR adjustments are separate from win conditions - it just cares about trying to balance future matches. For example, currently if a survivor hatches out, they win but their MMR is neutral to avoid unintentionally boosting their MMR for a win that was entirely due to random chance.
Out of curiosity, do you have any ideas for how to change that win condition?
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@Emeal said:
The old system would then also require maintenance, bloating up costs for BHVR. Would you pay for it?
Would it? If they're never adding anything to it, there would be extremely low need to ever fix anything with it, right?
I'm with OP, I think they could easily keep the old tomes around. They don't exactly need maintenance as far as I can see.
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@DeBecker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924953#Comment_3924953
It this game would be a 1 vs 4 where every survivors does its own thing, why do you consider the killers win condiditon to be a 1vs4 scenario wher the survivors are a team and not a the aggregation of those four 1vs1 scenarios you tellin us? Talking about double standards here.
…Is there much of a difference between those two perspectives?
The game's current win condition for killer is three kills, IE, more kills than escapes. Even if you considered it an aggregate of the four 1v1 matches, though, wouldn't you still need more wins than losses overall? It'd be the same outcome either way.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924973#Comment_3924973
Its hard to discuss anything in good faith in your direction as completely false statements just come from you. With public published data telling you, you are wrong.
literally small tweaks to killer basekit, individual small buffs that eventually move killers 1-tier up at best.•(2024) Hillybilly recieved the largest buff we have ever seen. Moving him from d-tierto the top 5 spots in the game.
•(2025) Freddy recieved a large buff that has skyrocketed him to the number 1 kill rate slot across high MMR published by stats up from.... freddy tier, he had is own tier.
•(2024) Dredge recieved a large buff to his entire basekit. Moving him from D tier to B.Not to mention that none of the actual survivor meta perks were touched either.
(2024) Adrenaline nerfed.
(2024) DS nerfed
(2023) DH nerfed
(2023) Prove nerfedLike what "meta perk" do you want to be "touched" I think is the better question(s)?
and still, huge majority of maps are still survivor sided, Autohaven maps are bugged and they spawn more pallets than they are supposed to, while the only truly problematic killer sided maps are Haddonfield, Vecna's map and somewhat Midwich.
No.
Someone made a post recently which is about as true as it gets. Midwhich is 100% killer sided and you would be disingenuous to suggest otherwise. A trapper can close this map down, thats how killer sided this map is.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/444344/map-balance-with-tier-listBloodlust has been buffed...and then you take a look at changes to survivor MS, latest being release of Orella's perk Duty of Care.
Survivor MS hasnt changed.
Duty of care is a perk with conditions and limitations. Same with sprint burst, lithe, and overcome.Healing gutted? It's literally still absolutely strong. Resurgence exists, Syringes exist and you can literally heal fast with just Surgical Suture on a medkit. Healing is still in a very strong spot, while anti-healing status effects have all been indirectly further nerfed by Vigil buff (Sloppy hardcore because it went to limited Haemorrage and Mangled).
Healing basekit has been gutted since 2023-2024. You keep flipping back and forth what you have a problem with. Perks, basekit, meta/non-meta. You cant just change the conditions of your argument every second and expect people to take you seriously.
literally majority of killer meta perks were hit with multiple nerf hammers, you are talking about buffs to perks that are used more in gimmicky builds
Pain Res nerfed (still the most picked perk).
Pop (still the second most picked regress perk).
Grim Embrace receieved an extremely large buffSo not only are you just wrong. But you dont want buffs to non-meta perks?
You seem non appreciative at all on any of the perk buffs this last year.i don't see a mention of "matchmaking issue" anywhere. Game literally looks balanced exclusively because of almost nonexistent matchmaking, community that gives up 2 mins into matches and players that last 20s in chases. Like let's sit down and think about how killrates got up on the first place.
What?
Its balanced because people give up constantly? You think the game is balanced 3v1 or less? You think the game is balanced for 20s chases or less?
Lets sit down and rethink what we type before we hit the "Post comment" feature at the bottom of the screen.
they have literally gutted slowdown meta to the point where only meta gen related perks are Corrupt, DMS, Grim Embrace and Eruption. We are in an era where survivors have hard control of the match.
At this point you just are making things up in your head.
Pain res
Pop
SurgeAll ahead of every perk you just listed in the meta.
Ruin is ahead of eruption
This is public data.
really? Forcing hooks, and most important spreading them is hardcore punished, tunneling and camping are pretty much dead, slugging is not possible against organized teams, like please tell me where are incentives for actually "playing fair" by the rulebooks?
Your post is a mess. Like you are contradicting yourself. How is grim meta you say above, but then spreading hooks is punished?
If this was true then Grim wouldnt be even taken. Grim has a condition you know, do you play killer? This is an honest question.
Devour hope is meta as well.All of this is public, published, data. I am not sure this long thread of whatever you came up with in your head, that also contradicts itself, is strengthening your arguments at all.
I agree with you overall here, but I do feel the need to point out, healing basekit hasn't changed since Spirit's release. The only healing nerfs we've seen were to medkits and Circle of Healing specifically.
Otherwise, fair points all around.
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To be fair, what we saw wasn't a balance roadmap, it was the content roadmap and updates on the QoL roadmap. You'd broadly expect to see survivor changes at least a little more in that kind of showing.
Any actual killer buffs will just be in the balance updates, as they have been steadily for the last few patches. It's easy to lose sight of that, but it's worth repeating again - something about killers has been buffed in every single patch of year 8, and a lot of that has been pretty noticeable.
They're announcing more system-wide changes for survivors because those are what's needed there, for the most part. Killers just need regular balance updates for the most part, and that's what they're getting.
(Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see stuff like toolbox reworks sometime, which would go in this kind of showing, but I don't think that should be the only thing we judge BHVR's showings on)
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I think you can simplify it more than that.
Tunnelling is the act of chasing someone either as soon as they're unhooked, or very close to that instant.
Other definitions tend to get caught in the weeds, in my opinion. This gets at the core problem - leveraging the vulnerability someone has while being injured and out of position after being unhooked - without allowing for too many false positives. The only caveat I'd put on it is that obviously this stops being a problem when the gens are done, that's a last-ditch moment for killer.
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@buggybug said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924517#Comment_3924517
Bond= people sandbag when your on a gen by purposely running killer to you or other teammates on gens. They also sandbag by running killer to you injured who is injured, yet they are healthy or other injured teammates who just got unhooked. Finally big shocker, they use it to hide and let everyone die for hatch. They are 100x worst than distortion users.
Sprint burst= getting put in stage 2 hook from 1 exists still because people trying to save their sprint burst.
That's a massive stretch on both counts, in my opinion.
I hope not many people dodge for perks this common and strong, or we'll have huge issues whenever this system drops.
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@buggybug said:
I can't wait, if I see any urban, sprint burst, bond, trashovations, no mither, and boons out I go.
…Sprint Burst? Bond?
Those are some odd ones. Why dodge those?
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They're definitely going to have to fix lobby dodging, in this case.
I'm all for people having info, but if the info's in the lobby they need to either bolster backfill tremendously or make it impossible to leave lobbies without a penalty. I know which one would be better, but I also know which one is more feasible.
Honestly, maybe that wouldn't be the worst thing. You should generally be expected to play out the match you queue for unless something genuine comes up, and "I don't like those perks" isn't something genuine.
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924329#Comment_3924329
I mean, if you consider legion M1 killer, won't ghoul be same? I don't think he can down with M2 at all
Probably, yeah. Ghoul's probably the strongest M1 killer right now. Maybe second to Spirit? But very good either way.
I guess calling Ghoul an M1 killer does somewhat test the definition, but there's not really any way around the fact that he is, his power exists to get the first hit and to catch up for the second.
Unless we create a new category for killers like Legion and Ghoul. You could probably toss Skull Merchant in there too, for killers whose powers injure but don't down. That'd be worthwhile I think, the more of those we get.