HeyBlakee
HeyBlakee
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908337#Comment_3908337
Flashbangs don't need to be reworked just to give 4-6 more frames to locker flashbangs and Wesker grab flashbangs. It's something that barely anyone does, and it's like 0.001% of the flashbang saves.
The benefits of fixing the other 99.999% of the flashbangs saves, is way more important than that.
the thing is, the rest of the blinds are fine imo. Like the blind angle nerf is fine. But adjusting the mechanics of the perk without fixing the issues with the items is not cool - especially when you havw players reporting these issues. Both bugs that huet the item as well as the ones that help the item should be fixed. They have dedicated teams for these things.
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https://x.com/Hey_Blakee/status/1909795974664315014
https://streamable.com/2pbg1z
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@rororoxor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3907827#Comment_3907827
Hitting consistently here is bad because the killer has no real counterplay, especially vs perks like background player
Also this is the same player who made similar posts regarding locker flashlight saves when they were removed, the saves are funny to land but theyre not healthy for the game
Considering how much nerfs are given to survivors and all the perks that give the killer insane pressure for doing the bare minimum, on top of the skill required to learn all the different timings + actuallh coordinate a save with a teammate and not end up on the floor before making it to a locker. It is fair. Its a strategy that requires good teamplay and strong chase mechanics to really abuse.
Now, in its current state, there are definitely mechanics of the bang and other perks that need to be nerfed to make it less oppressive from the average jimmy survivor who just slaps on BGP and make the game insufferable. Nerf the problematic perks and game mechanics/map design. Not gut an entire item just because other things are busted af. Youre taking away a whole community and dumbing down the game just because the devs thought it was a great idea to create side by side locker spawns at every tile for dredge as well as a perk that gives an adrenaline effect as soon as the killer picks a survivor up.
These things are the issue - not flashbang. You can disagree all you want. But these things are an issue whether flashbang is in play or not. Double lockers with head on vigil, killers have to pull and eat a grasp rescue, just for them to do it again in about 20 seconds, lose lose situation. Background player lets your teammate die on a pallet while youre miles away and then gives you a free save every time - pair it with WGLF and it gives them a free reset with endurance if the killer wants to slug, yet another lose lose situation.
Reward players for learning to hold chase and learn timings. Dont take away skilled aspects of the game just because the developers make poor design choices for perks and map design. You can quite literally hold any killer hostage in the basement with a 4 stack of vigil + head on but we wont talk about that?
anyone arguing that locker bangs arent fine outside of the issues ive brought up in this post lack any game sense. Ive suggested changes to make it more fair to the killer and remove the BS things that make it insufferable. Killers just want to have the easiest game possible. Locker bangs are the only thing you can do against a GOOD killer. Why make an item that only works and makes the experience for new players terrible? It simply adds depth to gameplay having it in the game. If you try to do normal bangs or flashlights, grabs and normal saves , without background player, youre going to get slugged and never have a chance at a save because its that easy to outplay anything you try to do. And flashlight lockers were busted, which is why they got immunity. Locker bangs take way more practice and experience. If you argue otherwise, youve never consistently tried to locker bang and hit on killers trying to flick their ass off.
On the other side of things, I play killer too. I have never once gotten flashlight or bang saved outside of players using BGP or where I intentionally give the save for free because I know someone and am memeing around or purposely want to draw out the match for more chases. When you know the mechanics of how these items work, its genuinelh a skill diff and you wont get hit by BS as much as you think. Again, promote skill expression and added depth to teamplay/chases. Nerf the terribly designed perks that make bot players get free saves with one braincell like BGP. Bang is NOT the issue.
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@LockerLurk said:
That's an intentional fix, Flashbangs were never supposed to be able to be guaranteed saves even if the Killer is not in an animation facing the wall and looking up. Flashbangs have actually been glitched for a long time now, about a year - they could be dropped inside the Killer's model and the Killer had no way to avoid it, and people were abusing that to get saves they should not have been able to in unfair ways the Killer player couldn't react to. Just like how Xeno's tail was glitched on launch, or Chucky's scamper was too strong, or the locker flashlight exploit from a year ago was a problem so bad flashlights were killswitched.
If something is glitched or a problem to the point of unfairness, it's not fair to expect them not to fix it at all just so you can have a fun interaction.
youre extremely misinformed and this update is NOT what that is.
That collision bug waa fixed a while back. As well as the sound bug that made them quiet. This change in 8.6.0 is something completely different and they were disingenuous about it in the patch notes. They tried writing it off as a bug fix when its a balance change and just didnt want people upset about it.
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If any CMs or Devs read this, the official response from Mandy was disingenuous as hell.
Firecrackers released in 1.3.0, Feb 2017.
Since then, the blind angle has never once been touched. It has always been a flat 90 degrees and even had a developer note stating that.
That is EIGHT years. Nearly a decade.
Jesterret started a repository on GitHub that would upload the dbd pak files from as early as 1.7
Serialization of these files on the repository started in 2.0.0
Here is a link to the earliest serialized version of the Tunable Values file on 2.0.0
https://github.com/jesterret/DBDPakTrack/blob/9ac79fafecce71741440eabec96824426fd722dd/DeadByDaylight/Content/Data/TunableValuesDB.uasset
To easily find the code, do Ctrl + F and search for “Firecracker_BlindEffectLineOfSightThreshold”
Jesterret has serialized versions of these files on the GitHub all the way up until whichever patch introduced a new file system/UE5.I completely understand nerfing the angle. But you guys went about this horribly. Giving a disingenuous response, ignoring the issues with bang that I stated in the post, which I don’t think you guys even fukly read, by the way. At least acknowledge it and maybe I dunno, reply to some of the people on here who actually understand what they are talking about and don’t heavily favor one side over the other?
Anyways, just in case you missed it from the OP @Mandy
The issue is that flashbangs and firecrackers have a random inconsistency of anywhere from 33ms to 166ms (220-238 frames, at 120fps) when throwing a bang. This means that whenever the user presses the input to throw, and the frame that the bang explodes and blinds the killer, is random every time you throw a bang. It is supposed to be a flat 240 frames, or 2 seconds. This matters immensely because when both players have good ping and framerates, it can completely screw over the survivors timing, making saves pure, random luck if they get proper delay on the explosion or not. -
@Mandy said:
Flashbangs now work as they were always intended to work, it was never intended that the survivor model could clip into a killers model so that they could get a blind which a killer couldn't avoid - even when facing a wall. Same as the audio and blind radius - you should not be blinded when looking up (which was happening) and you should not be blinded if the flashbang is not within your range of vision, hence we adjusted the angles. There has to be a way for the killer to avoid the flashbang, before it was incredibly easy to just drop the bang and the killer would be blinded with no way to avoid it, that's definitely not something that was ever intended to happen.
Whilst I appreciate that those who enjoy using flashbangs, have to now learn the new radius etc, the previous version was bugged.
Right.
https://x.com/lazlxv/status/1909409035721245180
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3907733#Comment_3907733
It is intended for killers to be able to hear the flashbang, which is why the audio was made more reliable.
Therefore, it was an UNINTENDED mechanic to purposely muffle the flashbang noises so that many killers can't hear them.
Im aware. As I said, it was a bug. But im talking about something entirely different. That sound bug wasnt even mentioned in this post because it was fixed.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3907695#Comment_3907695
Did you just admit to purposely dropping flashbangs in places that would muffle the sound?
There used to be a bug that made them completely silent, that was fixed. Throwing bangs around walls is a mechanic. Especially by starting chase first to add in chase music. The noise is loud and can be heard so it was a strategy called “pre-banging”. Using chase music and physical walls paired with pre dropping the bang around a corner was a glod way to mitigate the noise so that when killers turned a corner, they would eat a “pre bang” blind. This was mostly done in basement at the stairs where you could basically use 2 walls and chase music to make it extremely hard to hear.
That is not a bug though. Its just using game sense and mechanics to make a play.
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@tensa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3907189#Comment_3907189
Mandy, firstly I truly appreciate actually hearing feedback about the issue from the team at all. Sadly i really feel that this response is an incredibly low effort reply to a very detailed and researched issue that is echoed throughout an entire community of the game. Moreover it feels disingenuous to write these interactions off as a bug that has just existed in the game for coming on a decade and this change is just now coming seemingly out of the blue as a vague bugfix. I also feel it is inaccurate to say that this is needed so that the killer has agency in preventing a save of any kind from happening, this is simply not true, there is a variety of perks that can assist, a variety of actions you can take, and attempting these saves could just as easily result in more pressure for the killer. What is your incentive for using flashbang if flashlights do the same thing from a safer distance and enter the trial able to be re-used a large number of times. furthermore this response addresses only wall saves and extreme angles, there is a large amount of information in this post that this change has affected. I implore you to take a closer look at the post and share it with the team and to perhaps consider changing this in a way that keeps this playstyle alive and fair for both sides.
i’m completely with tensa here.
There’s no point in further discussion though. While I appreciate Mandy responding to this post. I’d like to say that was probably the most lackluster official response I have ever seen. I am genuinely disappointed in the team if that is your final decision and all you have to say in a very-detailed post that highlights an issue, provides data and proof to mechanics of an item being bugged, offers suggestions for balance and addresses counter arguments. You will address wall bangs, blinding outside of LOS, and clipping through killers (which was patched over a month ago btw! Nobody brought this up because it is not an issue!!) as an exploit and unintended mechanic.
An unintended mechanic? That was in the game for nearly a decade? Why was it not changed like 7 years ago? All you guys did was change a tunable value which is like 6-7 keypresses
Yall lost a few of your most dedicated players yet again. Congratulations. -
Flashlight hug techs? Lol
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@jesterkind said:
While it is possible that flashbangs have been adjusted too far when it comes to the blind radius - I haven't really played around with them much to check post-update - I find these stated reasons for why to be deeply unconvincing.
Of the three main points listed here, two of them are just talking about an unfair scenario being patched out, those being locker saves and "wall bang" saves.
I'm genuinely surprised to learn there isn't immunity for flashbang saves when grabbing someone out of a locker when there is for flashlight saves. I can't imagine why one would be okay and not the other, considering both require timing and positioning. If one's unfair, both are, and one most certainly is unfair.
When it comes to "wall bang" saves, there's really no justifying this. Staring at a wall is supposed to be the counterplay to blinding saves, and there's no excuse for flashbangs removing that. As you state here, if looking at a wall isn't counterplay, the killer would be forced to chase survivors lingering around for the save away, which is playing into their hands; many, many tools exist to make that a flat out cancelled hook, depending on the level of team play.
On top of that, what is being communicated with that argument is effectively "if flashbangs are in play, you WILL lose one down to them before you can start countering them, because you can't rely on the standard counterplay against them". If a killer can't just look at a wall, the obvious counterplay, and they haven't literally seen the survivor carrying the flashbang, they have no reasonable way of knowing that they need to counter flashbangs. It's giving the perk guaranteed value against all but the most paranoid of players.
Obviously, if you are staring directly at a wall, you shouldn't be blinded. That's pretty straightforward.
If the only effects of these changes is the removal of those two situations (and I am, as stated, open to the possibility that it's not, there may be more legitimate problems with how flashbangs are currently), then that hardly kills the perk. You can still get regular saves on out of position killers with it, you can still drop one as you round a corner in chase to take the killer off guard, you can still drop them at pallets, you still have all the standard utility of this perk. It doesn't need to be immune to counterplay to be worthwhile.
Was wall bangs unintended though? The blind angle for firecrackers has been 90 degrees since they were added into the game.
Also the mechanics of flashlights and flashbangs are incomparable. They are two separate items with entirely different mechanics and timings behind them.
I didnt want this post to be twice as long as it should be so I kept this barebones and only relating to the pure mechanics of the bangs rather than diving into every single problematic situation or perk combo. We’d be here forever if we did that.
flashlight saves have a gradual buildup to the blind where the beam needs to cover the face. Bangs have a 2 second delay before being an instant blind, there is no build up.
lockers received blind immunity because once streamers started abusing double lockers with them, their viewers wanted to be like the streamer sitting in two side by side lockers for an hour, forcing killers to open one, while the other flashlight saves and hops right back in abusing perks like streetwise and built to last for more charges. One god beam gave about 22 grasp rescues before applying perk buffs. This was an unhealthy mechanic and was a valid nerfThis is why locker flashbangs work but not flashlights. Because flashbangs are instant after the 2 seconds is over. Youre blinding the killer instantly on the first few frames that they have control of their character. This type of save has no buffer to it. Its not handed to you for free. If you read the mechanics section, it explains the factors that affect the timing.
For example, lets say we are playing at 60 fps
A locker pull animation is 5 seconds
5 x 60 = 300 frames
The bang would need to be thrown at Frame 181 to blind at frame 301 IF we assume the ping on both sides is 0ms
However, in real games this is not the case. There is ping on both sides so you need to adjust your timing for varying amounts of ping on both survivor and killer side which is where skill expression comes into play. It requires a lot of game knowledge and experience with hitting these saves on different amounts of ping.
However, this is an issue as well. The time between when the player presses the input to throw the bang and the frame that the bang explodes is not consistent. It should be 120 frames (at 60fps) however, it varies inconsistently. Making frame perfect saves with the new blind angle pure LUCK.
As for wall saves, I am all for these being gutted ONCE they fix the other issues with bangs being inconsistent. Besides, wall bangs are only problematic because of background player. If there is no BGP in play, then its 100% a misplay on the killers behalf because the surv has to be within about 3 meters of the killer to actually throw the bang in time because they have to be there at the BEGINNING of the animation, not like flashlights where you have to blind towards the END of the animation. Its far riskier to have a bang.Background player is problematic even without bangs. It just needs to be reworked entirely.
Also another for wall bangs. Its a flat 90 degree angle to the left and the right of the killer camera. If you chase someone off who is close, just make them run a few steps, go back to your slug, and just ever so slightly turn your cam the opposite direction of where the surv was last seen, I promise you they wont get the save. They simply wont have time and thats why im trying to say its a misplay on the killers behalf unless exhaustion is in play.
As I said though, we’d be here all day if we try to yap about perk combos that are broken. It makes zero sense to nerf flashbang instead of the perks that are actually the issue such as BGP.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/441982/revert-readjust-flashbang-angle-savebangs
Very insightful post, just shows how vague and unclear BHVR is when it comes to their changes. They need to state exactly what they did and be more transparent. It's the source of the catch up they are having to do with how buggy and ######### the game is rn, if they had proper documentation that THEY and the COMMUNITY could keep track of, it'd be easier to communicate when there are issues.
So Behavior start being more clear, honestly. It's not a huge ask, you'll kill your game slowly otherwise.There used to be a github repo that would document all changes in the pak files from patch to patch so you could easily see the exact values that were modified, added, removed, etc. but it has been discontinued by the account owner. Now you have to manually check with FModel
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@DlABETIC said:
I agree with the original post. A significant portion of the issues surrounding flashbangs and locker saves stems from the buffer mechanic. However, as previously mentioned, the developers aim to make timing mechanics more accessible to newer players. New players are generally less inclined to attempt locker saves, and if recent changes, particularly the removal of the buffer, were adjusted, locker saves would likely become less problematic. This would reintroduce a higher skill ceiling, requiring near-perfect timing—something that even veteran players struggle with. The outcome is largely dependent on factors such as killer ping, survivor ping, killer FPS, platform, and potentially other variables.
Maintaining the ability to perform locker saves with flashbangs without a buffer would allow survivors some form of skill expression. It's always an us vs. them mentality. I play both sides, and appreciate skill expression on killer. Another form of skill expression that was nerfed in this update was Oni, which I feel was unnecessary. What's next, Wesker, Billy, Huntress? I fear for the sustainability of this game if mechanics continue to be removed.
Personally, I've taken a break from attempting locker saves with flashbangs, focusing instead on escapes. However, the game feels much more repetitive and lackluster when playing solely for escapes. I enjoy switching between different strategies, and I believe these changes may lead to a decline in engagement among long-term players who are still seeking variety and enjoyment in the game.
exactly, this. Buff the ######### out of oni for all i care so that console and controller players can have those insane flicks. It makes the killer that more interesting and expressive with skill.
Completely agree that this game becomes repetitive and boring if all you do is play for objective and escapes. When you take away these niche mechanics, you’re only exacerbating other issues like syringes, bnps, god toolboxes that just make the other side have zero fun whatsoever because your only goal is to escape really rather than play for fun interactions. And trust me when I say the killers will be way more frustrated playing vs 4 god boxes every single game and getting at least 3 outed - at least by players who have a grasp of what theyre doing. It wont be fun and just promotes sleeper gameplay.
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@YmPrat said:
Devs pls ignore this post. The changes are good for the health of the game, we were given flashlight locker immunity because of people abusing it to stall out games and this person is arguing that because there's a feature to end the game after wasting 10 minutes of everyone's time sitting in 2 lockers that it's fine. It's not fine, neither was being flashbang saved while physically counting the pixels on the wall you've shoved your face into.
The changes the devs have made are good ones.
same thing i mentioned to gothic above.
Double lockers is the issue. Not the flashbang. Those 100% need to be nerfed to prevent this scenario as its unfair and promotes uninteractive and uncounterable gameplay.
Why should an item be gutted because of poor map design? What if a killer received a massive nerf just because it was extremely strong on a couple different maps? Think logically and for both sides rather than just what affects you as killer.
The wall saves is genuinely just killer player cope as its literally a misplay on your behalf by not forcing survivors far enough away before picking the survivor since its a 0.4s timing that requires you to be within 2 meters of the killer barring perks that grant haste. And even then, the timing is still rough. It rewards a survivor for taking risky positioning.
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@Gothic said:
I'm a big fan of the changes they made and don't think there needs to be a revision.
Survivor teams would use these flashbang setups and place them inside killer models or create lose-lose scenarios with lockers. Many survivor teams used these to specifically bully killers and not even play the game effectively stalling it for their own enjoyment at the cost of killer's not being able to do much about it.
Old flashbangs disrupted the game and now lean into healthier play by far. They actually require skill and are satisyign to hit and engaging to play against again.
HUGE win this update!!!!again, if you read the post. Thats a balance issue with locker spawns. Not the item itself. Flashlight immunity was valid even though they couldve nerfed the saves in other ways because like I said, the average mid survivor player would sit double lockers with double charge addons and built to last which led to unfun and uninteractive gameplay.
We advocate for these locker spawns to be removed to avoid this situation.
As for the walls thing, the animation to pick takes 3 seconds. You essentially have a .4 second window to drop the bang for it to hit. That means a survivor must be within 2 and a half meters of the killer picking a survivor against the wall. This means the killer misplayed and did not force the survivors far enough away before picking the survivor. The item is a literal grenade, not a flashlight that needs to be pointed at your face, it makes sense for it to blind if thrown at your feet even if you face a wall.
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30ms killer, 30ms survivor. 60fps footage, 120fps gameplay. Killer has control at frame 302. Killer barely moves their camera and the bang explodes at frame 307, with kaneki only turned away a tiny bit. Would've been perfect timing pre 8.6.0 before you only had 1-2 frames to hit perfect frame.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/427714629779587072/1358483879727468886/307_30ms.mp4?ex=67f40234&is=67f2b0b4&hm=4b2101609f0cdaf43fe163b31b7aca92466afc9c995b76c5a3adba51a007ba56&Locker CJ doesn't hit because the bang cone is too small even though its right in front of her. The cone doesnt expand far enough to register a save because the bang is essentially at their feet and slightly off to the left.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/427714629779587072/1358483809951158485/cjFail.mp4?ex=67f40223&is=67f2b0a3&hm=50bc16d3be1494e663733b4a83c03ade17ff8d390c31f2b55c4fefe130f70980& -
SORRY I FORGOT TO POST THE LINK TO THE GOOGLE SPREADSHEET WITH THE DATA. PLEASE FIX THE INCONSISTENT EXPLOSIONS SO SAVES/TIMING ISNT PURE LUCK
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fzqym0nf8wCIhEUSM4hvfyAXaxkeTOuiRyFppN0IxD8/edit?usp=sharing