Reinami
Reinami
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
I've never seen such a high pick rate for leatherface lol him/legion/plague were nearly 70% of the matches
Killers have to do SOMETHING to abuse the event, 60s unbreakable dropped shack pallet is the dumbest thing BHVR has ever done.
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@Wyndsor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098894#Comment_4098894
When they do you ask for those strategies to get nerfed so… lol.
There is a difference between asking the devs to change something that is unfun vs expecting the opponents to not use that thing because it is unfun.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098894#Comment_4098894
I'm not saying killers should intentionally throw. As i said I'm not against tunneling in general. I'll do it myself mid/late game if i need to.
It's more the specific situation where a killer singles out one surv at the start of the game and hounding them out immediately. Sure it gets the win but it's uninteresting, boring, cheap and requires minimal skill. it'll often just make players DC or go next. So you just have a bot game with bloodpoints.
It's like playing a tekken/mortal combat style fighting game and just repeatedly spamming a quick cheap unavoidable move combo. It gets you the win but there is no skill or satisfaction involved. You don't improve at the game and your opponents don't want to engage because there's no point playing against that tactic.
You can't really adapt to this kind of tunneling. In your example you just rotate your bad player off that point and put better ones in. But dbd doesn't work that way, it's not an even playing field. Countering hard tunneling off the bat is next to impossible unless the skill gap between survs and the killer is huge.
Here is one of the best SF2 players in the world daigo playing Ryu notice what he does? Gets his opponent in the corner and then "spams" fireballs. (i say spam in quotes because he is using them in a very specific way that not anyone can just pick up the controller and immediately do)
Should he instead let his opponent out of the corner to "be nice"? because it "isn't fair"? Should he let his opponent get a hit or 2 in because that would be nice? Or should he do whatever he can to completely dominate his opponent and win the match?
I don't understand this notion of "we have to be nice" in DBD. WHY? WHY? Why do i have to change how i play just because it would be "nice"? Why is no other game of ANY kind ever expect that? Why doesn't football? Why not let the other team score a goal to be nice? Why take your opponents queen in chess when they leave it open to be taken? Why aim for the head in counterstrike when your opponent rounds the corner why not aim for the chest and give them a chance?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1Vg0QA0FAM -
@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098894#Comment_4098894
I'm not saying killers should intentionally throw. As i said I'm not against tunneling in general. I'll do it myself mid/late game if i need to.
It's more the specific situation where a killer singles out one surv at the start of the game and hounding them out immediately. Sure it gets the win but it's uninteresting, boring, cheap and requires minimal skill. it'll often just make players DC or go next. So you just have a bot game with bloodpoints.
It's like playing a tekken/mortal combat style fighting game and just repeatedly spamming a quick cheap unavoidable move combo. It gets you the win but there is no skill or satisfaction involved. You don't improve at the game and your opponents don't want to engage because there's no point playing against that tactic.
You can't really adapt to this kind of tunneling. In your example you just rotate your bad player off that point and put better ones in. But dbd doesn't work that way, it's not an even playing field. Countering hard tunneling off the bat is next to impossible unless the skill gap between survs and the killer is huge.
In the fighting game community, you would get laughed at for complaining about that, and rightfully so.
I suggest reading the free ebook by game designer David Sirlin, Playing to Win. Here is an excerpt from the book:
The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.
Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become a top player. In reality, the “scrub” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.
The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. Let’s take a fighting game off of which I’ve made my gaming career: Street Fighter.
In Street Fighter, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone is often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield that will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.
You will not see a classic scrub throw his opponent five times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimizes his chances of winning? Here we’ve encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a scrub by throwing projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you—that’s cheap. If you throw him repeatedly, that’s cheap, too. We’ve covered that one. If you block for fifty seconds doing no moves, that’s cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap. Street Fighter was just one example; I could have picked any competitive game at all.
Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is a tactic close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.
A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the scrub has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them.
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@Cornil said:
As Jason currently stands, he has a ridiculous amount of potential to be one of the most fun and interactive killers we've ever had enter Dead by Daylight. However, the state of his kit is fairly overtuned. The power trivia on his wiki page looks like a full length novel, which is not a good sign to anyone researching how to play as him or against him for the first time.
If we are to assume that Jason's ranged attack is his main ability (similar to Springtrap), then it'd be best to not make any serious changes to it. Dodging his spikes is still possible and throwing them at range involves a good bit of skill, so I'd say it isn't inherently overpowered. Instead, let's lay out some potential nerfs or reworks that could keep Jason in a strong S-Tier position without having him unfun to face.
List of Things Jason Doesn't Need
- A cooldown 4 seconds shorter than the length of an altruistic survivor heal for omnipresent evil (currently 12 seconds, healing takes 16 seconds, make the cooldown at the very least 20 seconds, no more than 30)
- Being able to enter omnipresent evil 3 seconds after the start of the trial.
- Note: Jason is currently the only teleport killer in the game to be able to use their ability so quickly. The Dredge for example has to wait 10 seconds before using their teleport which only has 3 tokens, a direct counterplay in the form of locks, and has no accompanying ranged attack or dash.
- The ability to see survivors who are standing still (or hiding in lockers) with red mist while in omnipresent evil. (Currently survivors standing still are revealed, and so are survivors hiding in lockers, who also scream and give killer instinct after a Jump Scare is performed)
- Haste (4.5454%) making him 4.6m/s movement speed for 25 seconds when exiting omnipresent evil.
- Note: Considering he has a ranged ability, and the point of entering omnipresent is usually to reload said ranged ability, I'm not sure why giving him haste basekit just for using his ability is fair. With only a 12 second cooldown for omnipresent evil, they might as well made him 4.6 at all times. Haste should only exist in his kit to compensate when he has no spike in hand, not when he just reloaded.
- Omnipresent evil being allowed to teleport to pallets, windows, walls, etc. that are near a hooked survivor (or unhooked seconds ago)
- Note: Jason currently gets a slower exit animation, but characters like Dredge cannot teleport within 12 meters of a hooked survivor whatsoever. Singularity gets 10x slowdown to tagging or teleporting to a survivor within 10 meters of a hook, which means it takes 6 full seconds of tracking to tag a survivor, and 8 seconds to teleport. You need full line of sight in that time and survivors could bring an EMP to disable any biopods. Anti-camp restrictions linger for 5 seconds. Jason's anti-camp is 16 meters, however it only goes 4 meters vertically, only slows his omnipresent exit time to 4.5 seconds, and only lingers after the survivor is unhooked for 3 seconds. His exit time should be between 6 and 10 seconds if he is to continue being allowed to appear near hooked survivors rather than blocking the locations like with The Dredge.
- Hindered on impaled survivors attempting to remove a spike.
- Note: Currently .9% movement speed multiplier, so about 10% hindered. Springtrap, who has a similar mechanic, only gets to move at 4.6 instead of 4.4 as reward for hitting a survivor with an axe that moves at 30m/s (Jason's spikes move at 42m/s) and have a gravity modifier to prevent long-range hits. It takes 5 seconds to remove the spike, 8 seconds for Springtrap's axe (no hindered penalty). Removing the hindered and making the removal time 6 to 8 seconds could be fine.
- Being able to reload at a hook, pick up a survivor within 5 seconds, and the hook instantly repair.
- Note: It isn't that this is overpowered or anything, but that it removes the entire idea of risk/reward behind sabotaging hooks for better chase potential. I think it would be better if this were removed and instead one of Jason's addons gives a hook spike to the player upon hooking a survivor.
- Omnipresent Evil movement speed being faster than Phase-Walking Spirit or Cloaked Wraith
- Note: Jason's speed is currently 8m/s, Spirit is 7m/s, and Wraith is 6m/s. Considering how Wraith and Spirit both have mobility as their main ability, with no ranged attack, only other factor in balancing being their invisibility, its only fair that Jason should be at most equal. Lowering his movement speed while in omnipresent mode down to anywhere between 6.5m/s to 7.5m/s could reduce the feeling for survivors that it is impossible to end chase with Jason. He currently is too omnipresent.
- Jumpscare/omnipresent evil still detecting survivors who were crouched for 3 seconds
- Note: It seems to be partially bugged as despite the wiki stating that it only lingers for 2.5 seconds after crouching, I have on numerous occasions been jumpscared by a Jason while I was enveloped by fog having been crouched for a solid 3 to 4 seconds. Perhaps having the linger only be 1 or 1.5 seconds could mitigate this likely server-lag related issue.
- Addons that basically work as a 5th and 6th perk.
- Note: While I am actually all in favor of giving creative and useful addons to killers, it is well known that strong killers do not need them. Blight's numerous addon reworks and nerfs are prime example of this. Jason currently has two very problematic addons, 'Deputy's Badge' and 'Sauna Rock.' The badge gives -10% generator progress upon missing a special very hard skill check (like the perk 'Oppression') if a survivor is working on it, and if no one is working on it, it will just start to regress for passing near it while in omnipresent evil. The rock gives 13 seconds of exhausted for everyone who is jumpscared (16 meters radius) every time, with no real activation requirement or effort needed. If this exhaustion status effect was tied to being hit by a spike, or if omnipresent evil was nerfed to require more careful use of jumpscare, then it would be a non-issue. 'Deputy's Badge' needs to have its effects completely reworked. I'll go over some ideas in the next section.
List of Things Jason Needs
- Addon reworks.
- Orderly's Shoe (Common): Increases the duration of the Haste effect after a jumpscare by +5 seconds
- Rework: Increase the duration of undetectable by +8 seconds after a jumpscare (default is 2 seconds, would become 10 seconds total).
- Party Noisemaker (Uncommon): Breaking a Pallet
or a Breakable Wall
with Jump Scare reveals all Survivors further than 32 meters for 6 seconds.- Rework: Breaking a Pallet
or a Breakable Wall
with Jump Scare reveals all Survivors within 13 meters for 6 seconds. (This would bypass needing to make a survivor scream with jumpscare, as it is aura reading instead) - Note: The rarity of this addon would probably need to be swapped with the reworked Imprinted Aluminum, as this aura reading affect would be strong enough to warrant being Rare.
- Rework: Breaking a Pallet
- Imprinted Aluminum (Rare): Injuring a healthy Survivor with a Throwing Spike inflicts them with Mangled and Hemorrhage for 70 seconds
- Rework: Survivors hit with a throwing spike suffer from Mangled and Hemorrhage for 50 seconds
- Note: The reason I believe this one could use a rework is that it currently has no effect against already injured survivors, and has too close to the same value as Sloppy Butcher, which in the past resulted in a lot of similar addons for other killers being broken up into two separate addons or having their durations heavily reduced. Making this apply on every hit for a shorter duration should improve its utility.
- Sauna Rock (Rare): After performing a Jump Scare, inflict all detected Survivors with Exhausted for 13 seconds.
- Rework: Survivors hit with a throwing spike suffer from Exhausted for 13 seconds
- Alternative Rework: All detected survivors are inflicted Exhausted for 13 seconds (like current version), Jumpscare detection range is reduced by -4 meters (Keep the purpose the same but add a small tradeoff, encouraging accurate mid-chase ambushes by the Jason Player)
- Deputy's Badge (Very Rare): While in Omnipresent Evil, passing within 2 meters of a Generator causes the Generator to explode, lose -5% progress and begin regressing. If a Survivor is repairing the Generator, it will instead get a special Skill Check. If the Skill Check is failed, the Generator loses an additional -10% progress on top of the base missed Skill Check penalty.
- Rework: While in Omnipresent Evil, all partially repaired Generators start regressing. Effect ends after performing a Jump Scare. Survivors repairing Generators during Omnipresent Evil gain Blindness, lingers for 13 seconds after a Jump Scare, or the Survivor has stopped repairing. Survivor's affected by Jump Scare while repairing a generator cause the generator to explode and lose -10% progress
- Note: There are about a million ways you could rework this generator related addon, but I figured a mix of Ghostface's 'Driver's License' addon and Legion's 'Fuming Mixtape' could keep the Gen Jason playstyle alive but without being as frustrating to deal with as a survivor. It would give time for survivors to react and get off of the gen before the regression event, as well as giving more map pressure to the Jason with passive regression, the blindness as a bonus to encourage ambushing unaware survivors.
- Orderly's Shoe (Common): Increases the duration of the Haste effect after a jumpscare by +5 seconds
- Improvements to tracking
- To make up for nerfing jumpscare affecting crouched survivors only for 1.5 seconds before they crouch, removing red mist on idle or hiding (locker) survivors, I believe the visibility and linger effect of footsteps should be greatly increased. Current sensing is only 16 meters, increasable by 4 meters with a green rarity addon. I believe that making it 20 meters (at least just for footsteps) and increasing the duration of footsteps from 1.5 seconds to 2.5 or 3 seconds could make Jason much better of a tracking killer instead of a teleport spam killer.
- Haste when grabbing a trash spike or hook spike
- Since Jason would have to go out of his way more often with a longer (20 to 30 second) omnipresent evil cooldown, giving him some haste, maybe 5% for 5 seconds for example, could mitigate some of the distance lost. This could also help Jason players who become skilled at zoning, which he is very capable of. Zoning the chased survivor toward a loop with a scrap pile or hook, they could grab a spike mid-chase to get a speed boost just over 4.6m/s movement speed, making landing a ranged shot or basic-attack easier without using omnipresent evil.
I wish I had more buffs to suggest for Jason, but currently its easier to think of things that are problematic than things that would make him better. His kit is already pretty well made and fun to play against in a lot of scenarios. Key issue is just that a lot of players have mastered him already, and many of his small effects and some addons have proven themselves problematic to keeping the character feeling balanced. Lowering his basekit map pressure and making some of his addons not as overbearing would surely make him more fun to face, all while still keeping his skill ceiling very high. Hoping to hear everyone else's thoughts and ideas!
None of these things are a problem. Is jason stronger than nurse? Ghoul? Blight? Why aren't we nerfing those killers? Why are you nerfing a killer who is weaker than ones that we are aren't nerfing.
The only exception i'll make and the only thing i think he needs, is just to make it so survivors cleansing totems are considered crouching for the purpose of his power, that way the hex build isn't as annoying to play against.
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@Wezqu said:
If it was in event mode when pallets are blocked you can't vault them as killer. If it was in normal queue then it was a bug and you should report it to the betahub bug reports with logs of the match.
That's not actually true, or the bug is that sometimes you can vault them. Because i found that i was able to vault them most of the time, but SOMETIMES i was unable to vault them.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
No I'm not complaining about tunneling in general, i tend to be understanding of the concept. The thing I have an issue with is the worst kind of tunneling. Standard tunneling is whatever, if you find a double hooked surv and a no hook surv on a gen, you have a choice and the double hooked surv is the tactical choice every time. I'm talking about hard repeatedly tunneling the same surv off hook to the exclusion of all others straight off the bat. Heck I'm not even that fussed about tunneling straight off hook if it's done mid-late game.
It's this situation. Killer gets their first hook after a realtively short chase, realises that surv is mid/weak at chase. Killer then proxy camps said hook, maybe they manage to force the surv to stage, then as soon as the surv is unhooked, they hit them off hook and commit to the exclusively chase them again down them quickly rinse repeat. You get one survivor dead at 4-5 gens left. That one survivor has no chance to play the game, and the rest of the team is screwed because the game is not supposed to be a 3v1. We've all had games like that.
There has to be a system where the game can recognise that the killer is focusing out one player to the exclusion of all others. In the specific situation where you have 2 hooks on the same player, 0 hooks on anyone else and they are chasing the 2 hooked player there should be some kind of game intervention. Something that stops this kind of play dead. Peehsps a system where the surv on taking the second hit straight off of hook gets teleported to thebopposite side of the map and insta hesled or just invincibility or invisibility that gets cancelled if the killer hooks another player or if a survivor struggles out (obvs I wouldn't want to see survs abusing a mechanic like this for free bodyblocks) this would give the tunneled surv an opportunity to get out of the killer's sight and have a chance to heal and actually try to counter play by going stealthy so they can still achieve something in the match.
Normally it's fairly rare but I've seen an uptick in this kind of play from killers over the last couple of weeks, probably killers getting tilted by black banquet, and an awful lot of jasons too. I'm sure some people will simply call skill issue over this, but this type of tunneling is immensely easy for killers to do and very difficult for all but the best survivor teams to effectively prevent. By the time you realise how hard killer is committing to this it's usually too late to simply genrush. And it literally tanks the game, one surv gets next to no bp and is dead within minutes of the game starting. And the rest of the team is screwed unless there is a wild skill gap between killer and the 3 remaining survivors and they just so happened to demonise the 1 weak surv in a group.
Why would you expect your opponent to intentionally not do something that is going to likely lead them to winning the game? This is like playing counterstrike and being mad because the T's keep going to bomb site A over and over again knowing that you station your worst player to defend it. Adapt your strategy instead.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097888#Comment_4097888
So your point is basically "you dont think most killers can compete well enough" which you could have kindly summed up like you did with Cornil above. That's your thoughts and mine are "most killers can" as I said previously with that list. Cool we disagree, it's whatever.
How does that answer either question? Or at least the second one (iffy if all that text actually answers the first).
Huh?
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@Cornil said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097896#Comment_4097896
I did read your post
Also, there ARE ways you can nerf survivors or buff killers without actually hurting the "average" level player. For example, if you nerfed killer shack to be mindgameable (I.E. remove the check spots, maybe give it a breakable wall like the one of dead dawg, remove the holes so survivors can't see through it etc.) that is going to make the structure far weaker when going against a survivor who knows how to properly exploit killer shack to its full potential. But the "average" survivor, is probably not even looking behind them, doesn't know what a check spot is, and probably predrops the shack pallet anyway.
So if you nerfed killer shack in this case, what you would be doing is, nerfing survivors as a whole, while not hurting lower level players.
I suggest watching this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCwIt is quite old, i post it here frequently, and it is about TF2, but the logic still applies here. Specifically that middle case where they talk about the BASE jumper item.
You can nerf things in ways that don't hurt lower skill players because they aren't actually even using that thing properly to begin with.
BHVR actually has one example of this that is the single greatest balance decision they have ever made. And that was old ruin, and by old ruin i mean old old old ruin, the one that made it so if you didn't get a great skill check it would damage the gen by 5%.
That one was really really hard on lower skill players who had problems already hitting skill checks to begin with, but didn't really do anything at the highest levels where hitting a great skill check was super common and easy to do. So when they reworked it to be the one that regresses gens, it did multiple things, it actually nerfed it for "average" level players, but buffed it at the highest levels of play. Because now at the highest levels of play, the perk is much stronger, but against average players as an average killer, it is harder to pressure the gens and get the full value out of the perk whereas before it was just "free"
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@Cornil said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097889#Comment_4097889
All I was saying is that in order to make those 35+ other killers playable at high levels, you'd have to nerf survivors. Whether if it's by base values, perk reworks, or just simply lowering the amount of pallets back to how they used to be, none of that can be done without tackling those 3 to 5 killers are that overtuned. Or else they'd be even more ridiculously unfun to play against than they already are.
I literally said that. Please read my post, my god.
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@Doctor_Xenomorph said:
if say either a survivor or killer were to create a brand new account - and either escape every single game in a row, or to get nothing but 4k's - how long/many games would it take to reach said MMR cap???
Last i saw from a content creator talking about it, the soft cap is around 1600, and players start at 1100. With wins/losses tweaking it by on average 20 (if normal elo is to be believed in games, which there's no reason to think it isn't).
So realistically? You could get to 1600 after 25 wins in a row. But, in elo, your k-value is usually quite high with very few matches, so your first few matches could adjust you by hundreds of mmr at a time. The 20 per game would be after you have had enough matches for k-value to stabilize.
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@Cornil said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097597#Comment_4097597
The goal should be realistically about half of their matches, maybe a margin of error 10% here or there, for every killer to win in a scenario like that. The issue is that the devs have had a tendency to balance around the 5 killers that'd win well over 50% of the time in those scenarios rather than balancing them around the goal of a 50-60 percent winrate. You get what I'm putting down? The best Nurse player in the world would probably wipe the best survivor 4-man in like 80% of the matches just on the fact that survivor skill expression is limited to saves, and Nurse's whole ability is "i teleport right to you," which can easily counter anyone trying to save. Every match would basically be a timed trial on how quickly the Nurse player can 4-man slug the survivor team.
Nobody here said survivors aren't powerful themselves. Some perks are clearly more equal than others, and overall the meta needs another shakeup with some perks reworked to compete with DH, SB, DS, the usual culprits. Everyone is tired of seeing the same 10 perks every single match. But at the same time, people are also tired of seeing the same 5 killers every game. Characters like Jason, Ghoul, Dracula, and other jacks of all trades, master of many, need to have their kits seriously reassessed. Nurse, like I've said, is hard to balance. You'd have to fundamentally change the game around her current kit to make any real kind of balancing. But the others are fixable, and the rest of the killer roster could use some quality of life changes alongside those fixes.
But honestly I think half of the current balancing problems with weaker killers is that the devs decided to almost double the amount of pallets spawning on every map, and assumed everything was A-Okay just because the top 5 strongest killers were unphased by it. Used to be that playing Trapper, you'd have a trap for almost every single pallet if you wanted to lug them around, shuffle them to each part of the map. Nowadays some maps have more god pallets than you have traps. For 90% of the killer roster it feels like hell on earth, three long-wall pallet loops only 10 feet apart, chainable to multiple windows, often times the shack. But for Ghoul? A god pallet is usually a guaranteed hit, just vault the moment they drop the pallet and you win. Nurse? Just teleport through it as they run away. Jason? You get the idea…
You are missing my point entirely.
I AGREE WITH YOU. I am a nurse main with thousands of hours in this game. Why do i main nurse? Because i like to win, plain and simple. I'm not hiding that. My point is I AGREE nurse is a problem at the highest levels of this game. But the BIGGER PROBLEM is that we have 1 killer that is probably way too strong, maybe 1-2 that are a little too strong, another 2-3 that might be "balanced" and then the entire other 35+ killers are completely trash tier and useless at that level.
To me the BIGGER PROBLEM is not that 1-3 killers that might be a little too strong, but the 35+ that just can't hang.
The 35+ are the bigger problem that need to be dealt with first either by massively buffing killers as a whole or nerfing survivors as a whole, while then taking those killers who are too strong, bringing them down a peg.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097597#Comment_4097597
So ignoring the facts of the uncertainty of anyone having any of those titles, the sheer unrealism of having a subjectively "balanced" map (each killer would have something different for "balanced") with no RNG, which is an inherent part of the game, and all those matches have the exact same spawns and either not including thinks like add ons and perks or free for all for them, id say: Wraith, Billy, Nurse, Myers, possibly hag (subjective "balanced" map remember), Huntress, Freddy, Clown, Spirit, Plague, Demo, Oni,Pyramid, Bleet, Twins, Trickster, Neme, Pinface, Artist, Dredge, Wesker, Xeno, Unknown, Vecna, Drac, Houndmaster, the Ghouls, Springtrap, Krasue, Henry, Jason. All them have a good chance to win about half their matches.
Now that I answered you, care to answer me?
Whats stopping the devs from looking at both the highest and lowest and making tweeks using that data?
If the survivors don't do the play you think is best atm, does that mean they're less skilled?
I'm presenting a hypothetical. Imagine BHVR organized these matches, got the LITERAL best killer player in the world, and assuming ALL OPTIMAL CONDITONS. Remember, i'm thinking fighting game world. Where you take a matchup of 2 characters, assume both players are the best in the world, and generate a matchup chart. They look something like this for fighting games:
These are scored on "out of 10 matches". This is for SSF2T which is very old and poorly balanced but doesn't really matter too much for the discussion.So for example, if you look at the chart and grab say, sagat vs guile. You'll see sagat has a 6 and guile has a 4. This means that out of 10 matches, sagat would win 6 and guile would win 4.
Then, you take those scores, and you stack rank the characters, and now you can determine the general stack ranking of the characters. These are usually started off based on opinions early on in a games life, but as time goes on, tournament results are used to determine and tweak these. Obviously for modern games patches and such happen.
Now, for DBD, perhaps the better matchup chart might be, killer to map. lets say. So if we took every killer on every map, and played 10 matches, assuming that the map RNG is static (so it is the same map every time) and it is a relatively balanced layout (it doesn't have 30+ pallets, but also doesn't have like 5 pallets).
Now have those killers play those matches out 10 times against the best team in the world. And what would happen Only 5 or so killers would actually be around the 50-60% win rate mark and maybe another 3-4 might be in the 40-50% win rate mark. But t he entire rest of the killer cast would be around T.Hawk and Zangief level
Now in the case of this game example here of SSF2T, if this were say, a live service game and we were the developers still balancing it, it would be clear that akuma is way too strong, and zangief is way too weak. matchupes that are 4-6, 5-5, 6-4 are fine in this world. Where you might need some tuning is any of the matches that are worse than that, the 3-7, 2-8, and even dear god the 1-9s. My point is, maybe nurse gets 7-3, maybe ghoul and dracula get 6-4, maybe spirit and blight get 5-5, but almost every other killers is down in the 3-7 and 2-8 range or worse.
THAT is my point.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097562#Comment_4097562
you need to contend with the fact that the vast majority of the killer cast is massively underpowered
Im curious, wheres it fact that the majority are underpowered? You can name a few easily enough but wheres the majority of 40 killers?
Beyond that, whats stopping the devs from looking at both the highest and lowest and making tweeks using that data?
My point is, you are saying that Jason shouldn't require people to be coordinated (in a team game btw) because most people aren't. Thus you are advocating for balancing around lower skill and average level players.
The reason most people arent coordinated is because in solo Q you really can't be to any large degree. Sure you can figure out what the best play you think should happen atm is but would the other 3 random survivors know what you want? That doesnt mean they are lower skilled does it?
Take the literal best player for each killer in the world, and pit them against the best survivor team in the world and play 10 matches in lets say a perfect world where they can play a balanced map that has no map RNG and all 10 matches have the exact same spawns and layout.
Now think about that, and tell me how many of those killers do you think would win even half of their matches in that scenario?
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@Cornil said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097318#Comment_4097318
How would Nurse need buffs if you were to balance around high level survivors? Or even average level survivors for that matter. She overperforms in anything outside of the tier with newer players. I also said specifically "I agree that balancing shouldn't be done centered on the lowest common denominator (the average player)." I am advocating BHVR consider the top level of play, the highest a killer can achieve, whenever they make balancing decisions. I feel like they took this approach with Blight, by leaving his kit untouched and lowering his base speed, he is now harder for new players but more or less the same for the high level players. There is a lot of reward from mastering the character, and not just learning them.
There are too many killers who have a match potential that is capped lower than the floor for other killers. An incredibly inexperienced Bubba, for example, can outperform an experienced Hillbilly in some cases due to the ease of use. Bubba infamously can get guaranteed kills from face camping, like in the endgame. A Hillbilly, on the other hand, has a much more complicated kit that will be harder to get such guaranteed kills. If you measure from the top level of play though, Hillbilly will outperform Bubba by leagues because of that same complicated kit. Where Bubba is usually forced to break pallets, Hillbilly can play around them with his chainsaw sprint.
I'm not sure how you read my comment and got the exact opposite interpretation of what I was saying. I want BHVR to stop balancing around new players, on killer or survivor. Its already hard to pick up the game, they should just accept that and focus on making the game fun and fair for once the new players get the hang of it.
You obviously didn't read my comment. There is 2 choices:
- You balance around the highest level players
- You balance around the average player
If you balance around the highest level players, then by definition you need to contend with the fact that the vast majority of the killer cast is massively underpowered, and you have maybe 5 killers that can compete at that level and survivors as a whole need a massive nerf, or killers as a whole need a massive buff.
If you balance around the average level players, then by definition, you must look at the AVERAGE level players, and what do you see in the statistics around killers like nurse and blight? They are often in the lower half of the killer cast, in fact nurse is often the LOWEST kill rate killer in the game when you look at average kill rates. Thus by definition, she would need some buffs.
My point is, you are saying that Jason shouldn't require people to be coordinated (in a team game btw) because most people aren't. Thus you are advocating for balancing around lower skill and average level players. If so, then are you willing to live out the truth of your statement and claim that nurse and blight need buffs and that sadako and pig need nerfs? I don't think you are. I think that you would say that nurse needs nerfs.
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@Cornil said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096992#Comment_4096992
Blight is now in a good state in my opinion. Nurse however, would require a complete rework to her power overall. No amount of balancing can really make a character whose whole design is "i teleport straight to you" truly fair.
What you're missing is the proper perspective. Blight and Nurse are the lowest common denominator. When survivors of all skill sets load into matches against these characters, with only some variation in perks and maps, the outcomes are statistically measurable. The top tier killers are considered top tier for very good reason, they give both the highest chance and highest potential for winning with the lowest amount of relative effort. There are killers that vary among those factors, though. Trapper has a low chance of winning, high potential, fairly low effort. The Cannibal, known for snowball potential, but also a low chance of winning, easy to learn as well. Ghoul is so problematic because he is high win chance, high potential, and very low effort. BHVR went about balancing him on release by tackling the ease of use aspect, which was definitely his best trait, and is now somewhat fair to face. Nurse may just have to stay how she's been for years now simply because you cannot lower her ease of use any further without ruining the character. You'd have to lower her win chance or chase potential which is not easy with such a simple killer power.
I believe I understand what you mean, and I agree that balancing shouldn't be done centered on the lowest common denominator (the average player), but the stats BHVR uses is often a measure of everyone, all levels of play and not just casuals. If a killer is stomping very skilled players, then the devs can obviously conclude that they will stomp newer players too. We can only hope that, given the last year of reworks and balance changes, that the days of "nerf Pig" and Sadako reworks are behind us, and they can focus on making the killer roster more evenly capable. Which, you might not like, means both knocking down killers like Jason, Nurse, Ghoul, The First, Dracula, all just a smidge while lifting up the rest of the roster just a little.
So if we look at the average player and balance around them, then it is simple. Nurse actually needs buffs and if you don't think so, then you are biased and simply want BHVR to balance around AVERAGE survivors, but HIGH LEVEL killers.
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@zonkednb said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095970#Comment_4095970
Story of my life. I was a Jason defender; see my comment history. I argued that he has counterplay in the form of giving survivors control over who takes chase and where they take chase, which is super strong (and true)
However
Should that level of coordinated counterplay be expected in a game like this? It demands all survivors be good at/built for chase. Jason's 'weakness' of frontloading all his strength in chase is cushioned way too hard with the duration of his haste and how quickly he can reset with OE. Reloading is either too fast or too easy to do without taking a detour. So the whole idea of forcing out his M2 and surviving long enough for him to be a 4.4 M1 killer never comes into play.
You can pick who takes chase at any given time if you cooridnate but Jason is the kind of killer that can afford to spread hooks. And I haven't even got to the pain of a slowdown + hex + thrill Jason. It's outright gross.
I was so excited about Jason. He is really fun to play as and my first survivor experiences against him were atmospheric, fun and not impossible. I still don't want his gameplay loop altered too much because he has such a unique feel and I think the design team were very close to a homerun.
Start by making his Haste half its current duration, then work from there.We shouldn't balance the game around the lowest common denominator. And IF SO, then you need to explain to me why killers like nurse and blight would need nerfs.
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@Pixxeltrixx said:
I have recently gotten a bad string of games where the killers have slugging builds.
I know its a part of the game, but its not very fun going against it and I have noticed the anti abuse measures are being worked around where I live.
Killers will slug 2 times, then hook. A lot of the time letting the slugs be on the floor for a long time.
As a solo Q player this is anti fun. Inviting my friends who don't play DBD was embarrassing because it was so boring. So its bad for new players, which is bad for the game.
So I want to propose a solution, if you are slugged for 45+ seconds, give the abandon option. If your team has not made an effort at that point to help you, its literally already over anyway so I don't see why I should continue to be slugged.
And its optional. If you are in SWF and want to fight the slugging build, thats fine! You still can! But for newer players this lets them escape a very toxic and sadly now common situation that is not fun and is used to make people waste time bleeding out.
It has been mentioned time and time again, survivors become stronger when they get off a hook, and killers lose all pressure when they have to spend: a few seconds looking around for pallet/flashlight saves. 3 seconds picking the survivor up. 10 seconds to walk to a hook. 1.5 seconds to actually do the hook, all for what, giving the survivor 70 seconds of immunity basically. And right off the hook survivors get tons of perks, dead hard, DS, OTR, BT, BS and many more.
A slugged survivor takes just as long to save as a hooked survivor, and it doesn't cost you 20 x3 seconds of pressure to just leave them there.
All of this is resulting in killers realizing that slugging is actually often the better strategy than actually going for hooks. And was predicted months and months ago by a few prominent content creators, but nobody listens to them because they are the "bad ones"
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@Angy_Quentin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094825#Comment_4094825
I don't think that's a problem. I was just explaining his strengths after the rework.
Yes but you basically described a scenario that explicitly puts him in complete control. I could describe a similar scenario about trapper and you wouldn't think that trapper is suddenly OP. Obviously if all the survivors are grouping up against a killer that specializes in dealing multiple health states in a row on survivors on a long cooldown during that time when that ability is available they are going to have a bad time. Just like if they group up against leatherface, or legion, or if they don't cleanse the condemn against sadako, or if nobody goes for the box against pinhead.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094825#Comment_4094825
If leatherface had 30 chainsaws that he threw at you nonstop he would be
***tsters "chainsaws" can be dodged
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@Angy_Quentin said:
The reason he is 4.4 is because the train never stops. He has no problem downing all four survivors in a blink of an eye if they group up. Most other ranged killers do not have that snowball potential.
"If survivors play poorly and badly, the killer gets to kill them" what a shocker.
Is leatherface a problem too because he can do that?
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@cammoking123 said:
You could have a whole healing orgy in the corner during the time it takes to set up a table. Unless you're playing in a coordinated swf healing via the table is not reliable.
Its less about actually healing and more the problem of it picking people up or healing them in the middle of a chase. The strat is to have 3 survivors drop their morsel at a table then spread out, then the 4th hangs around near the table and works a gen. Then when a survivor getting chased gets hit, they insta heal that person giving them a 3rd health state. Often times then also giving a big benefit to the survivors like invisibility portals, or unbreakable pallets.
Then the person near the table just stacks it with 3 of them and repeats.
It should make it so survivors have to go to a table in order to get the heal rather than just being a global heal.
Insta-heals and borrowed time in a bottle via the medkit were removed for a reason and those were only single use. Now imagine being able to do it an infinite number of times in a match with basically a short 60 second cooldown.
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@jayoshi said:
They need to get rid of that and being invisible. It sucks because now I can't do the killer challenges unless I farm. I just got done with a game where survivors were able to turn invisible and you just lose them. As someone who has been playing since 2019 and was very excited for this huge milestone - I'm extremely disappointed. I say this as someone who legit plays both sides.
Once I get my challenges done, I just go back to normal and deal with the long wait time if I want to play killer. I would love to play the event as killer and have fun - but yeah… that's not happening.And the unbreakable pallets. Every single god pallet just being 100% safe for 60 seconds is insane. The only thing that is somewhat balanced is the speed boost one.
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@BlackJimmy88 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4093913#Comment_4093913
If they're still hard set then it isn't fixed. An actual fix would be having them appear as they did for the 8th anniversary and earlier.
Its fixed in the sense that you get more is what i mean, but it just proves that the hard set number was intended by them.
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@rowlent said:
I just read the announcement on X, so I logged in and spent almost 1.3M manually. The problem is STILL there!
I just tried it and its fixed, but the cakes are still hard set at specific levels, they just increased the amount of levels that it comes in at. If you do 50 levels for a whole prestige, you will get 27 cakes every single time.
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@Brimp said:
I heard theres a buff that makes pallets unbreakable for 60 seconds. I could only imagine the damage that could do when shack can be up.
The invincibility is also really good at body blocking hooks, had a team prevent me from hooking someone entirely by doin that.
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@Balrog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4093229#Comment_4093229
Understandable frustration, something we can note as well.
I think at this point once you figure it out a sticky or some kind of announcement would be worth doing to know if its intended, or if it is going to be changed, or whats going on.
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@Balrog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4093156#Comment_4093156
I am not aware of any issues of cakes in the bloodweb, only Bloodweb Errors from earlier.
Reading between the lines, this probably means its intended everyone.
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@YaBoi0215 said:
I have recently come to the conclusion that playing soloq survivor is infinitely harder than Killer ever could be. I want to say that every 2/10 matches I play soloq they're enjoyable and skillful. The rest are just the most braindead people on my team. Soloq is filled with people who do not play for the team, run meme builds, run builds with playstyles that they are incapable of pulling of, or are just outright bad at the game. I honestly don't know what can be done to fix this issue. I mean 99% of people I play with don't even look at each others perks when all it takes is a button press at the start of the match or just do it on a gen. Now, I will say that killer is far more stressful than soloq survivor is. I don't ever find myself being as pressed to try my absolute hardest though unless I am playing soloq survivor. I think the one thing that can possibly change this would be a ranked mode but the issue comes down to how to implement a ranked mode with a proper wincon for both sides that isn't what it is now. Because clearly our current MMR setup is just incapable of putting you with proper teammates.
Other news, water is wet.
Generally most of the community agrees:
SWF > Killer > Solo
It's how its been for a long long time and probably nothing will really change that other than flipping to something like: Killer > SWF > Solo or SWF = Killer > Solo or SWF > Killer = Solo. All of which would probably not be good for the game.
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@Joeshp_ said:
I'll keep this short, should BHVR reward you for successful reports with BP. If so what should be the BP gain?
Bad idea, then people just report everyone after every single game.
Ideally they should have a system like DotA, where a replay is saved if people report, it goes into the system, and people can review it and vote if it was a valid report. As people vote more correctly, they are trusted more and more, and as people vote incorrectly, they are trusted less and less and get less cases to look at.
Then you reward people who correctly vote on a case.
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@wesker_shades said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4093110#Comment_4093110
Then don't make a big deal out of someone saying one side might be worse for cakes. It sucks for everyone, sure.
For context, I did drop around 400k points on killer manually, and I saw maybe 4-5 cakes in that amount spent.
That equals to around 80-100k BP spent per cake, or 2-3 levels in the later stages, which is an atrocious drop-rate for an item that we used to get multiples of per bloodweb in prior years, regardless of the side you were spending points on.I have yet to find out how bad the survivor bloodweb is, but if it really is as bad as it sounds, then I will probably skip it entirely.
So you are incapable then. Its fine, we know where your biases lie then.
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@wesker_shades said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4093105#Comment_4093105
Refer to my original post in the thread. I said more than just that.
And you immediately said: "
But yes, survivor bloodwebs does have more event items in total, and if those items are going to clutter the bloodwebs, resulting in even less cakes, then we have a major problem on our hands.
"
So again, you said:
"it sucks for everyone, but also it sucks worse for x side"
Again i ask you.
Are you completely incapable of just saying: "BHVR, this sucks for everyone, fix it" without bringing sides into something that is just objectively bad for everyone and has nothing to do with sides? This is precisely why this community is so completely utterly screwed up, because everyone boils EVERYTHING down to "sides"
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@wesker_shades said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4093095#Comment_4093095
It's not just an "us vs them" thing. This is about everyone.
But yes, survivor bloodwebs does have more event items in total, and if those items are going to clutter the bloodwebs, resulting in even less cakes, then we have a major problem on our hands.Are you completely incapable of just saying: "This sucks for everyone" without being like: "but also it sucks more for one side" just say it sucks for everyone.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
Killers get lots. The problem on survivor is that you have the event items AND the new cakes, all in the same pool. So you get less cakes on survivor. On my P100 Pig bloodwebs I got at least 1 cake every single page.
Why is it that you people have to constantly turn things into an "us vs them" It sucks for both man.
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@Wyndsor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4092202#Comment_4092202
I'm so glad the devs don't take this forum seriously goodness.
Why not test it out? Why not throw it out on the PTB see if it makes any big differences, and then if it doesn't release it live. Give it a week or 2, and see if there is a problem, if it is, just revert it. Why are you so afraid of doing that??
We SHOULD be testing these types of things out on a regular basis, and make actual changes to things instead of just: "Oh we saw that doctor wasn't doing well, so we took one of his addons, made half of it basekit then nerfed the addon" oh wow thanks guys, you really saved doctor from being a ######### tier killer.
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@HexSlugged said:
survs deciding to play like trash is on survivors, not the killer. survs need to play less dumb. not a killer porblem.
however i do think OE shouldnt be infinite as it creates too much of a psychological standoff that you dont get with killers who essentially can do the same thing like wraith. I also dont like the end gate situation which absolutely should almost always be a loss for surv 95% of the time, it feels with jason its a 100% loss which is too much.
it should feel like you have a 5 % chance of escaping.
reloading im not too worried by but i wouldnt be against reloading only at hooks if they remove the hook being saboed due to it.
im not familiar with his addons so no opinion there, but his haste should be shorter or equal to his power CD time, otherwise there is no point in him being 110 if a jason who uses his power often will effectively alwasy be 115%
probably only should have like 5 seconds of haste to allow to enter into chase without too much distance.
granted i think you would need to address that at 110 and now a m1 with also having pushed the surv farther away from you that he also cant be 110 and expect to be effective.
It functions exactly the same as wraith. Are you gonna be working a gen while injured against a wraith? or are you gonna go play passively?
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@JordaJ6 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4092120#Comment_4092120
While I am tempted to fully agree, the biggest difference between Huntress and Death Slinger is if they win one interaction with their ranged power they win the health state, 4.4 while feeling dreadful isn’t completely handicapping in my opinion.
Artist, Unknown and Trickster need to land multiple projectiles in a specific time frame, but only one of them is 4.4 and doesn’t have a projectile that can work around the environment. Plus, Trickster has to reload his projectile, which is even more of time suck whereas Artist and Unknown have a cooldown.
It feels wildly inconsistent in game design philosophy. Especially after Jason is a 4.4, single hit per health state ranged killer and gets to be 4.6 for interacting with his power; I especially see zero reason why PTB Cut Thru U Single can’t be basekit if they don’t want to make him fully 4.6 again.
Again, is 4.6 going to suddenly make them unstoppable monsters better than nurse? No, its going to maybe raise them a few ranks in the tier list at best, they will all still be bad killers.
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@JordaJ6 said:
Just add you to the list of people who see the problem. I’ve written a recent post and participated in another post in detail recently, and last I checked it’s about 2/3 in favor of 4.6 and 1/3 not in favor to be pragmatic about the detracting comments about it.
My take is, artist and unknown are the other multi hit projectile killers and they are 4.6 because of how badly LOS breakers can flat out deny your power. Artist can send crows through the environment and Unknown can bounce his off the environment WITH a mobility power to boot. 4.6.
Trickster needs the most hits, and direct LOS to injure. I think every single other update in the rework is healthy, gives balanced counterplay, punishes spammy low skill play. Fantastic.
But both slowing him for using his power AND making it so he can’t fall back on M1 chase fundamentals when the map plus legit survivor skill make your power impractical if not fully impossible to use is an over correction of what was an over tuned killer. The over tuned being 4.6, 8 blade main event, no throw speed slow down penalty Trickster.
Last note, nobody likes camping, was Trickster arguably the best at it? Probably, but you’ve made it so hard to be aggressive in chase with some of the most heavily weighted maps that it becomes the only choice if you care about kills and potentially winning. So at the higher levels of play he gets exponentially worse to play as and against because he will have to camp at least moderately.
TLDR; make him 4.6 and leave every other nerf, change and update the rework brought him.
I'd argue in modern DBD there are very few killers whose powers actually warrant them having slower movement speed.
If you made:
- Hag
- Huntress
- Trickster
- Deathslinger
All 4.6, it wouldn't suddenly make them overpowered.
Personally i still think making blight 4.4 is pointless. God tier blights are still gonna go on 2k win streaks all it does is make him harder to play for normies. So i would move him back up to 4.6 and nerf him in some other way that actually addresses the problem.
The only killers i think at this point warrant it is probably just nurse and henry (specifically because he is designed to be a mobile artillery). Even spirit these days probably isn't powerful enough to warrant a 4.4 movement speed. Arguably chucky works as a 4.4 because his hitbox is smaller, so the pain of being 4.4 isn't as bad as being 4.6, but even that might be worth testing and seeing if it even makes him that much stronger.
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@pidgeon said:
It gives you the same amount of distance as brutal strength, someone did the math its about 1.56 seconds of distance saved iirc.
Assuming an empty map with a single predropped god pallet and infinite straight lines it would take the follow lengths of time to m1 a survivor:
- Basekit: 9.64 seconds
- Brutal: 6.45 seconds
- Scared to Death: 6.98 seconds
- Brutal + Scared to death: 3.85 seconds
It's strictly worse than just using brutal strength alone for distance. Which, as stated, is a bit silly for it being a hex perk that can be cleansed with such a massive requirement to get to and the fact that it can get removed.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091683#Comment_4091683
You're comparing him to the strongest killers in the game as though that's how all killers should be but, aside ftom Springtrap, they're also killers that do only one thing. Compare him to other killers that have more going on, especially ranged ones with traversal.
Henry's Undergate has a 35s cooldown, he can be seen and heard while in it and he remains 4.4 with no free haste and no KI.
Vecna's fly has a 20s cooldown, flight of the damned is 30s, dispelling sphere is 30s, mage hand is 35s.
Unknown has a teleportat cooldown of 40s and its locations are much less available, as well as dispellable.
Dracula only has a 3.5s shape-shifting cooldown but the bats are very loud, very visible, and can only perceive scratchmarks and sounds.
OE puts all of these traversal abilities to shame and has a much smaller cooldown as well as infinite duration, free info, and no way to know where he is if there's no grass on the map.
Also, Sprintrap's axe takes 10 or more seconds to recall. He can't just grab another and keep tossing them. Comparing him to Springtrap in any way except to show that Springtrap has been power crept is just wild.
Jason should be the pivot point in which all killers are balanced, and if you think jason is a problem then those other killers need nerfs too. You don't get to say "you are comparing him to the best killers" yes, i am, if those killers aren't getting nerfed then why are we nerfing a killer that is worse than them?
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091677#Comment_4091677
What does this have to do with density though? A new pallet location spawn isn't the same as density. Density means things close together. There's one palllet here. For all I know this is the only pallet on the whole map. You're just complaining about pallets existing.
It means there are more pallets spawning, especially on a map like midwich where it is basically a static map.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091746#Comment_4091746
Thats the only thing she has they are not the same its silly to compare.
Sadako is also not going around with a spear its like the only part of her kit basically. Survivors can take the tape too turn the Tv off for a whole 70 seconds If she teleports too it its turned off for 45 seconds. (Jason's 12 seconds looking small rn)
Nurse has her own balancing issues but I really don't see why we are comparing. She is not going invisible.
Wraith has sound ques when he is nearby and cloaked. Jason has no ques he is near you in OE.
Ghostface can be seen and is not going straight up invisible?
Bruh this is really just false equivalencies and i hope anyone who plays can see how silly it is to compare Sadako teleporting to tvs to Jason OE.
Edit: I landed on 30 seconds because Henry upside down ability is comparable to OE in some ways, at least more then Sadako tvs are.. Also why are we needing to go into OE so often anyways. I feel like if we are at least attempting to chase with the chase part of his kit 30 seconds is not that bad. If henry had a 12 second long cooldown I'm sure some players would also be in upside down mode most of the match.We need to go into OE often because the killer is literally designed around it, he gets a speed boost coming out of it, if you are chasing survivors long enough that your speed boost wears off you are playing him wrong.
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@Doctor_Xenomorph said:
This is a post where ppl can honor their old favorite perks (or atleast show how some perks were once good but nerfed so much they are not seen much anymore).
Controversial but I'd say PWYF being nerfed from 5/6/7 to 3/4/5 haste is overkill for the nerf
Now that diminishing returns are a thing they really should go through and buff some of those haste perks again.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091718#Comment_4091718
And how is someone spamming something with a 12 second cooldown
They are spamming it as in some matches the Jason will go in and out of power as soon as that 12 seconds is up.
When the counterplay to that is meant to be crouching how are we expecting the survivors to get anything done when someone is playing like that. combine that with the hex ruin and thrill every Jason has been running who is being what I dub a "OE spam Jason" because they set up around their totems and gens. and due to the nature of OE where you have no idea where he is (unlike Spirt, Henry, Wraith) Survivors have not choice but to crouch around or be seen.
I had one Jason match today where he had 4 gen at tricksters demise main with a totem and he just never left that area, chasing people who would go into it but then running back to it in OE if you chased away from it. Its plays like old v1 SM and why I've seen some people compare him to her.What proposed nerf would you suggest?
I think a cooldown around 30 second cooldown would be a good change to try (around the same as Henry upside down cooldown)
( I initially wanted way less info in OE but don't wanna punish Spear play Jason's who are not OE spamming )You realize that MOST killer powers have a cooldown between 0-15 seconds right?OE is not his entire power he has a spear / range part of his kit. Spears are by no means a weak part of his kit and seen some very good plays been done with spears (I don't wanna touch spear part of kit)
Ok and like, is this an issue with sadako? She can also spam tvs. Is this an issue with nurse? She can also blink immediately after the cooldown is up. Is this an issue with wraith? He can also go invisible whenever he wants. Is this an issue with ghost face? He can also stealth as soon as the cooldown is up.
That's what a cooldown is, it prevents you from spamming it.
The fact that you want his cooldown to be nearly triple just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.
I would highly recommend watching Scott's video on this where he explains the counterplay:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJi8dVgBnecThe fact that you are boiling the counterplay down to "just crouch" shows exactly the problem here because that isn't the counterplay, not exactly anyway.
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@random1543 said:
OE spam Jason players when he gets nerfed and they have inflated MMR because we spent to long waiting on data when most of us know OE is the issue.
What proposed nerf would you suggest? And how is someone spamming something with a 12 second cooldown. You realize that MOST killer powers have a cooldown between 0-15 seconds right?
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@TropesDaMan said:
Generally i just want a longer cooldown and im perfectly fine, i feel he gets barely punished for spamming power. killer main here
How long of a cooldown do you want?
For context, here are the cooldowns of some killer powers:
Nurse: 6 seconds
Spirit: 15 seconds
Blight: 10 seconds
Hillbilly: 0 seconds (outside of the miss cooldown i guess)
Springtrap: 0 seconds (outside of the animation for coming out i guess
Do you know how long jasons is? It's 12 seconds.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091622#Comment_4091622
Ok, a pallet is spawning. And I'm glad because that room is a death trap. It's been in need of a resource.
Do let me know if it stops you from winning all your matches though.
Move the goalposts much?
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@AlexM said:
I am dealing with a bug in game that is probably linked to my cloud data because the same issue is showing when i play on ps5, steam deck, or my gaming pc. I dont see any other players with this issue at all, ive tried everything in the book that i could do on my end, evening talking with friends who are dbd content creators and are all dumbfounded by it. any help would be amazing because when i sent a ticket out, the team basically completely ignored my issue even with tons of video proof of said issue and in a nutshell said "yes it seems you do have an issue… ok best of luck you are on your own" Ticket closed* this is extremely frustrating as my game is almost defaulted besides using reshade. I play this game competitively and it is my favorite game. why is nothing ever done about these bugs?
https://youtube.com/shorts/vd9rgnwolm0?feature=share
What resolution are you playing at?
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There was an error displaying this embed.
What resolution are you playing at?
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091541#Comment_4091541
I don't have a screenshot of the match because I don't really care enough to use it as leverage in the forum.
Here you go, regular match, proof the pallet is spawning:
