Kilmeran
Kilmeran
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Well, like the other countless threads on camping, this one should be interesting.
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@siyke26 Yeah, unfortunately this change encourages even more deranking, which is honestly the last damned thing this game needs.
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@DBDbuildsYT I swear, at this point into the fiasco, it almost feels like a working as intended.
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empathize, not emphasize. 😁
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@twistedmonkey Any friend who is serious about the game?
They're new players. And new players, on the average, are not serious about any new game they buy. They have no investment in the game yet, outside of the initial MSRP, which in this case was likely a mere $10 due to the sale. They're here to try the game with their friends and have a little fun.
And when the current SWF system negates that fun for them, they're likely to move on. Which means, yet again, new players not retained. And if you watch Steamcharts for yesterday and today post-bloodhunt, that's exactly what appears to be happening, yet again, on PC.
Unless console numbers are astronomical, because PC has been relatively flat for the past year despite all the 50% off sales they've done, this game needs to start retaining new players. And it isn't doing so. And this latest DLC and hotfix hasn't seemed to change that trend.
But, going back, new players are extremely unlikely to be "serious" about the game this early in their time and money investment. That kind of dedication takes time, and given the current situation, it's time they're unlikely to give the game.
Unfortunately, I don't have a solution. But it's starting to look like the current change isn't working out.
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@Maníaco_da_garrafa Interesting, I hadn't check PainReliever's channel before.
I knew him from Overwatch. He created the most popular Overwatch Dead by Daylight mode in the workshop. I've started playing it more frequently over there, and found it more fun and less frustrating than real Dead by Daylight. 🤣
I assumed he was a DbD vet to have created the Overwatch workshop mode so damned well, but never took the time to verify my assumption.
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@DBDbuildsYT Same. As a Rank 17 solo survivor, I was put into matches against Rank 11-9 killers a number of times yesterday, even after the Bloodhunt ended.
@Bop923 See what DBDbuilds and I have stated. We are playing solo and getting put into matches with Killers way out of our rank range. The matchmaker is still broken. It has zero to do with SWF in our cases because we have both stated we're playing solo.
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@KittKatt At lower ranks, the killer is strong because survivors are still learning, don't yet know how to loop, et cetera.
At higher ranks, if a Killer goes against a survivor, especially a SWF, of equal skill level, then the Killer is in a bad spot. A single mistake can screw up their entire match.
All that said, Dead by Daylight is extremely New Player Unfriendly. There's a solid reason why, at least on PC where we can track numbers via Steamcharts, it fails to retain new players. Every free weekend, the numbers drop back down to normal afterward. Every 50% off sale, the numbers drop back down to normal a week or two later. DbD has remained pretty much flat in terms of new player retention for over a year now.
And for very good reason.
Unfortunately, there are only two options as a new player.
One: Chew glass and get put through the meat grinder repeatedly for your first 100-200 hours of play time as you grind out Perks, learn the maps, learn how to loop, learn the various Perk combinations that the killer might run and what they do, and more.
Two: Find a different game to play with your friends. A game a bit easier for new players to get into.
One of those options leads to fun and maintaining your sanity, the other does not.
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@Peanits I understand that. My post was that 3.2.1 has completely messed up lower queues (at least on PC) since it went live. Matches are now taking 15+ minutes to get as a Killer (tested both rank 18 and Rank 15 killer queues). And this has been outside of the Bloodhunt, so it's on normal play days since 3.2.1.
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@MissKitty95 There's something going on since the hotfix. Either a majority of the new players are all in SWF with high ranked friends, or as you pointed out with Nea being solo, it's still screwed to high hell.
My son is Rank 18, sits in 15+ minute Killer queues since the hotfix. I am rank 15, sit in 15+ minute Killer queues since the hotfix.
Ever since the hotfix, the lower ranked queues have become lobby simulators on PC. Right now, I am heading back to Overwatch. I'm lucky to get two matches an hour here since 3.2.1. Until something changes that, there's no use even logging into the game. I'll barely be able to play any matches.
@Peanits Is there any word from the Dev team as to why this happened beginning with 3.2.1?
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@Karltastisk Yep, steam is down. Unfortunately, that is something outside the scope of DbD and Behavior.
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At this point, I will be surprised if console ever sees the light of day.
Looks like Deathgarden try #2 is going the same way as Try #1.
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@BBQnDemogorgon Thank the gods. Now maybe I can play killer again without falling asleep waiting for a match.
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Never mind. Reply withdrawn. No longer worth my time.
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@Carpemortum Oh no, not at all. 😂
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@Carpemortum Oh, I know. But I am going to keep criticizing them until Cote gets the hell off of his love of the EA-model of Game as Service development.
I like DbD, I really do. But it's failed to grow, at least on PC where numbers can be tracked, over the past year for very good reasons. And the number one reason is: Management's handling of DbD.
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@JustAFeeling You can not feel it's fair all you want. I've been playing for well over a year and have seen the issue go on and on and on.
And a fast matckmaker means nothing when the rank disparity within the matchmaker still throws everything to hell.
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@JustAFeeling I worked in game design, and that is not an argument. In a Game As Service environment like DbD, you are never done with content. You still need to fix major core issues as you go along.
Behavior fails to do so, for too long now. So why do I play DbD? I play it as a side game, and play it only because there isn't another asymmetrical game on the market with a playerbase.
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@JustAFeeling I would agree with you if they actually fixed core problems with the game instead of chasing license after license, and pushing DLC after DLC, and soon a battlepass every three months, too.
And yes, there are games that do the same for content. I play Overwatch and get three new maps and three new heroes per year there as well. Difference is, Overwatch isn't a buggy damned mess, and the matchmaker actually works.
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@JustAFeeling They release a new DLC every three months. That's always been the schedule. Next one is in December, which is Chapter 14 with no new map. Then Chapter 15 in March.
Chapter 16 will be June, which also begins the Year 5 roadmap, just as June 2019 began Year 4.
Considering this thread discusses Pennywise, if accurate, then he would be the next DLC: Chapter 14 with no map. Just as Leatherface and Ghostface were chapters with a licensed killer only and no map.
So, yeah, next DLC to buy.
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I'll be in Overwatch for Halloween Terror when it starts in October through early November. Been there for it every year, and will be there this year. Even have over 30k coins banked.
So, no Halloween Blight in DbD for me. I have limited play time, so only play one title at a time.
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Hey Behavior, how about fixing the game, starting with matchmaking and moving forward.
Behavior: Look over here, another DLC to buy. And did we mention the battlepass you can soon buy, too? Oh, and look, we chased and paid for another license as well.
But . . . fixing the game . . .
Behavior: Look at all the new shiny things you can buy . . . .
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/719392#Comment_719392
I dont prefere to grind, in fact i play and played many games with 0 Grind. But it is a part of this game and I am talking about grind itself as an element of gaming.
May i give you an example:
I was playing a Shooter game, wich has grinding in it. People were moaning about how boring this Grinding is, and that they want all the stuff by either buying them or getting them more frequently. Eventually they got it the second way. The game, that lived for 2,5 years died within a month or two. "There was nothing to do anymore".
In DBD Grinding is a side element. It is there and it keeps most players motivated, even they dont realise that. A part of your inner self is very likely also on that train. We talk about collects rubbed, that every human, that included you, has to a certain degree.
Obviously, the game itself is more important, but as said, without the grind, most people would miss something. I bet my non existing Yacht, you would too.
@xEa The issue is, the grind in DbD is not a side element. A side element would be grinding for cosmetics, for example. DbD is a game whose core design is predicated around character builds. Perk builds are central to the game, and can help determine success or failure in a match.
And the grind in DbD puts that core element behind not only a grind, but an asinine bloodweb RNG.
That's the difference. Perks should have been done via spending bloodpoints (a lesser grind) to purchase them directly. Even if they still required purchasing lesser tiers to eventually get to Tier 3 of a perk (also a lesser grind). It would then have a grind that was at least in a player's control.
While unlocking a teachable is within a player's control, the RNG grind of the bloodwebs to then get the perks on needed characters, especially killers, is where Behavior went entirely too far.
It would be different if Perks didn't have such an impact on the game. They do. And that is what eliminates the concept that the grind in DbD is a side thing.
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@GrootDude Oh, you mentioned Steve and Nancy. I haven't bought the Stranger Things DLC yet. Hell, I only bought Ghostface because he was $3 during the recent sale, otherwise I wouldn't have bought him either.
DLCs, cosmetics, the upcoming battlepass, I absolutely refuse to give Behavior another dime until they actually fix many of glaring issues with this game, beginning with the matchmaker and moving onward, instead of just taking the path of least resistance because the actual fixes that are needed would take a lot of time and work.
For me to buy any further DLCs, they would have to contain perks that absolutely shift the meta. Otherwise, I have access to all the meta perks already, and enough perks overall between the 17 survivors and 16 killers that I currently own, plus all the general pool perks, to do a wide variety of builds.
This game is in desperate need of an Operation Health, and until Behavior gets serious about that as opposed to chasing license after license, and releasing DLC after DLC, and soon battlepass after battlepass, I'm not going to financially endorse them. It's feeling way too much like a pseudo-EA game, and I don't pay EA for good reason, either.
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@GrootDude I typically play DbD as a side game, but grinded out this Bloodhunt for my killers. I'm not putting points into Ash so far, and have just been playing him as a Level 1 survivor. At this point, I'm just grinding out account levels for the shards for when a few Survivor perks come into the Shrine that I need. I so far have enough shards for 3 perks.
I'll hold them until certain teachables hit the shrine then get them. Once I have a couple, then I'll start leveling Ash. I did get Claudette to 40 during the event, so have hers unlocked.
Anyway, I probably have a week or two left in me after the Bloodhunt ends, which will get Clown to 40 (and maybe Nurse to 35 for Thana) , and then I am taking a break. Around that time Halloween Terror will be starting in Overwatch through early November. And then I have stuff to do first couple of weeks in November that will mean zero gaming time. So, I'll shortly be gone from DbD until at least mid-November.
I won't ever prestige a character. I don't play DbD enough to deal with that stuff. Leveling them once was enough bullshit for me.
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@GrootDude I can't wait until this crap just ends so I can get back to playing Killer. Already got Clown halfway to 40. He's fun.
I'll finish him off after the Bloodhunt via one of my several Tier 3 BBQ killers.
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@GrootDude Just the opposite here on PC. My killer queues have been 10-15 minutes for the bloodhunt, but Survivor has been instant match after match.
So, I decided to go all Ash Williams on the Entity.
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@Javviier PC here. When the DLC released my killer lobbies ran from 3-5 minutes, and I was low rank even. Survivor was instant.
Since the Bloodhunt started, Killer queues have been about 10 minutes a pop (which is expected during a Bloodhunt when more people are playing Killer for the BP gains they get) and Survivor has still been near instant.
No server disconnects or anything as of yet.
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@Snow_Lep That's the problem and has been the Standard Operating Procedure for Dead by Daylight for too long now. A majority of their fixes are only by doing what's "convenient" instead of what needs to be done.
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I have to agree, my solo survivor matchmaking is still all over the place.
Which, I unfortunately expected even after the hotfix, since the only hotfix note was in regards to SWF, and yet SWF was not the only issue.
At this point, I've given up on the possibility that Behavior will ever get their matchmaker working properly. It's becoming glaringly obvious that they do not possess the technical knowledge for it.
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@twistedmonkey You and I are not going to agree on the design direction for the change they made, it's just as simple as that.
I will say this in closing, though: you are right, it is a Survivor-side choice. And moving forward, I will continue to not recommend the game to friends and family who might want to play with me. Instead, I'll continue to recommend them to Overwatch or Paladins, my other two games, where us playing together isn't such a botched design job.
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@xEa The grind here doesn't keep me playing. As a matter of fact, the grind is precisely why DbD has never been more than a side-attraction for me. It's also why my friends and family will not touch it. Not everyone requires a grind like DbD has in order to feel engaged to a game.
Since May 2016 we have played Overwatch. Overwatch has zero grind. There are no builds, and therefore nothing to unlock. Yet, we have played it consistently for over three years because the engaging factor for us is learning as many Heroes as possible, getting good with those heroes, climbing in MMR (quick play) and SR (competitive) with those heroes.
We also play Paladins, which does have individual builds for each Champion that you can do. Again, zero grind since every card used in a build is unlocked from the moment you own the champion. So what keeps us engaged? Learning new champions, experimenting with builds (both serious and meme) and seeing how they play in a match. We've been playing Paladins for well over a year with zero grind, and have been engaged because we can mess around with builds from Minute-One.
No grind, yet complete engagement, including for three-plus years in Overwatch. Not everyone needs your preferred style of grindy play to be engaged in a PvP game, nor enjoys it.
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@XavierBoah17 The question should not be how many new players it brought in, but how many new players it retains overall. Dead by Daylight has never had an issue bringing in new players, but it has been unable to retain them for slightly over a year now.
Every time there is a 50% off sale, for example, the Steamcharts numbers increase for a couple of weeks before retracting back to the normal 20k-25k daily peak users it showed before the sale. Indicating that it failed to retain them.
I made note of the Steamchart numbers increased during the release of the Stranger Things chapter and the 50% off sale. I'm going to be watching over the next month to see how the numbers go. Right now it's a bloodhunt, which also brings back Vets every time they have one, so numbers can't really be gauged yet.
Now, I can't speak for consoles, of course, because we have no external way to track that like we do for PC.
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I don't use Ruin. Matter of fact, I loathe Hex perks in general. It's too much RNG on spawn points, and I'm not putting my perks at the whim of RNG like that.
@Peanits Where do you stream, and what's the channel?
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@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/718842#Comment_718842
The difference is the userbase and why you saidn"if they can" this is why unsaid most and not all.
If the userbase can withstand it a casual mode works. If it can't the game is split and eventually one mode dies off or the game loses player entirely.
The problem you are arguing about comes down to damned if they do and damned if they don't. Your argument goes in favour of new survivors but new killer players also have to be catered for and I mean on them as they do not have the choice survivors do.
I personally find it quite selfish someone wishes to make a player that has no choice go up against them and have little to no chance just because they chose to play with a friend.
The way this has been done at least the new survivor players now have that choice. They chose where they wish to play and as in some other successful games if they wish to play with friends in certain modes they must play a bit before they can or should.
You have stated numerous times you played overwatch. What would happen if you had a friend join and were able to immediately jump into a ranked game with yourself? What would you advise them to do? Obviously it would take time to get to your rank and they cant play so you have the option to play the other mode and help them learn the basics (there is KYF) you can't play ranked with them until theybrank up so you then allow them to do that until they reach your area. Its just how it is.
The reason the playerbase goes back to the normal 20/25k according to the playerbase has mainly been balance which you yourself have spoken about especially on the killer side for quite a few times. This one change helps the balance more for the lower ranked killers than many before it and goes along with your own previous arguments. I can't see how you see can see this as being a bad thing for the sake of better balanced gameplay.
@twistedmonkey As I said, I'm a killer main. And seeking an averaging of the SWF for a Killer rank is not selfish. Yes, it means I went against Red Ranks, but it also meant I was going against Gray ranks in the same match.
An averaging is far more balanced than when they did Killer rank based on the SWF group former, which was gamed by having the lowest ranked friend assemble the group, or what they're doing now based on the highest rank.
Any other game would average the MMR, since rank is basically used as an MMR in this game. I've played Overwatch, Paladins, Heroes of the Storm, LoL, and DOTA, and MMR is averaged for a reason.
And notice I said MMR, which is what is used in causal modes. Because in an actual ranked mode, there is a gap-cap between ranks in a group. You could not have a low ranked friend in your group if you were high ranked.
So, we have to treat this as what would be casual modes in other games, since ultimately that's all this is.
Otherwise, Behavior needs to go all-in that this is a Ranked Competitive Game, and implement a rank range-gap between SWF members. Because as it stands, their system is trying to be a hybrid of ranked and casual in a single mode, which shows not only design shortsightedness, but also a complete lack of matchmaking and rank ladder game design understanding.
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@Captain_Spaulding Yep. People defend Behavior like they are some small company running out of a small building and DbD is their first work in video gaming.
Far, far from the case.
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@Captain_Spaulding Well, they are the largest Indie game developer in Canada. They are not a small company, however: https://www.bhvr.com/about-us/
And I believe it was in Cote's LinkedIn where I saw it. I looked him up a year or so back out of curiosity.
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@Captain_Spaulding said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/718818#Comment_718818
I'm mad but not surprised. They're charging $10 for very badly designed skins as it is now. I refuse to believe they are actually working to fix the game anymore. Instead all resources get dumped back into the cosmetic department because they know the game is sinking and don't have the right people to fix it. They don't want the right people to fix it. I genuinely thought they would be better than EA but it looks like I was wrong.
@Captain_Spaulding I am not insulting the guy, because I do not know him personally and therefore have nothing personal against him, but you do know that the Game Director, Mathieu Cote, used to work for EA, right?
I've said for the past year that I am seeing a pseudo-EA model slowly creeping into DbD.
Behavior gets away with this only because they have absolutely zero competition in the asymmetrical genre. Decent competition needs to come along.
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@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/715590#Comment_715590
Even the middle ground has killers who can't compete with those in red ranks. That doesn't solve the issue and why it has been one of the most complained about situations.
The thing is survivors don't have to be bullied they have that choice. Having a choice and chosing it is on the person not the game. Most PvP games your friends won't be able to play with you in a ranked mode unless they learn the basics and start to rank up. Why should this be any different?
You are also not thinking about new killer players that come to the game gwtting bullied as getting to green ranks is easy for a killer as you cannot depip from 20 to 16. 15 to 10 is where most of the new players can end up and pretty quickly who have even a small knowledge of the game which is where the average game could pit them against those in your scenario.
New players should not be pitted against the best but at least new survivors have that choice now if they want to or not.
Your three new friends can easily play together for a while leaning the game. I don't really see why that is an issue if one person out of the four has to wait so its a fairer game for all.
@twistedmonkey You said in the above quote: "Most PvP games your friends won't be able to play with you in a ranked mode unless they learn the basics and start to rank up. Why should this be any different?"
Let me stop your argument right there because that is a major flaw. In most any other PvP game, you are right: new players cannot play with their high-ranked friends in ranked mode. However, in most any other PvP game, there is also a Quick Play casual mode where they can.
Behavior, in yet another poor design choice for Dead by Daylight, decided to create the game with only a ranked mode. And therein lies the problem.
I'm a killer main, and for a game that they've also stated is a casual party game over the years, this current change is asinine. People want to play with their friends, including players they bring in. And given that DbD only has a Ranked mode, and no actual casual mode, this change is yet another very poor decision choice to keep driving new players away.
There are reasons why after a free weekend or bloodhunt, and within roughly two weeks of a 50% sale, DbD Steamchart numbers repeatedly drop back down to the 20k-25k daily peak player range, which has remained flat for some time now.
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@lynelmane According to the roadmap, it has a "tentative" date of the upcoming mid-chapter patch.
We get Archives, which are challenges you do to unlock Lore on various characters. And completing them will give you Charms for your character to wear.
And the Rift, which is their battlepass that will, presumably, have both a free and a paid track.
And as you see, you get a new one every mid-chapter patch, or roughly every three months.
But yes, the battlepass is coming. There was a thread about it a month or so ago with various complaints and concerns, and Not_Queen came in and said they were watching the thread, would take the concerns to the team (which was PR spin because, trust me, the Rift model is already set in stone back at corporate), and would release details closer to the patch.
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@lynelmane I assume you're being sarcastic, since the mid-chapter patch launches the Rift (i.e. Battlepass) into the game.
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@Xboned I agree with all your posts here.
As far as PGTW and the grinding Clown from 1-40 you mentioned above, don't forget the Shrine of Secrets.
But wait, there's more!
PGTW has appeared in the Shrine only twice since Clown released in June 2018. So, only two times in 15 months!
You can see how many times each Perk has appeared, here (it's the long chart near the top of the page): https://deadbydaylight.gamepedia.com/Shrines_of_Secrets_Archive#Past_Shrines_of_Secrets
I absolutely refuse to recommend this game to new people anymore. The reason being pretty much the dialogue you mimed several posts above. Recommending this game to a new player should be illegal under Cruel and Unusual Punishment.
@Rydog The fact that Peanits or anyone at Behavior can defend this grind-system with a straight face indicates they might have missed their calling for a career in politics.
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@Nikkiwhat I've been saying it since I started as a new player about a year ago. I can't get my friends or family to touch the game because of the asinine grind for new players. A grind that only increases every three months.
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@KrazyKat1011123 After Sunday, I'm done with the grind. Finally got all the Killer teachables unlocked that I will need for the foreseeable future, and some Survivor teachables. Also sitting on enough shards now to wait for a few more survivor teachables to hit the shrine, because I am just not leveling more survivors. I've chosen my two skins (Claudette and Ash) and will eventually use the Shrine for the remaining three or four Teachables that I want, when they appear.
After this Bloodhunt ends for me Sunday night (it ends 11am Monday in general, but I won't be playing Monday morning), I'm probably putting the game down for a bit. Maybe a month or so.
The Overwatch Halloween Terror should be starting in a week or two, anyway, so I'll probably jump back over there. Maybe I will come back for a little bit if they do a Halloween Event here and it looks good to me, but outside of that I'm probably breaking until mid-November.
Burned, and grinded, out.
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@CrazyFred_ You'll also be playing on the Microsoft servers, not the Steam servers.
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@Mochan As someone that currently plays about 80% killer (I've switched to Survivor during the bloodhunt due to queue times and am really liking it, so will be closer to 60/40 or even 50/50 moving forward), I agree.
I unlocked Ruin based on meta-perk this and that and have absolutely hated it. I regret the BP investment for it since I don't even play Hag. It's either cleansed early on, or it simply makes me feel cheap because survivors can't hit the skill checks or I down them while they hunt for it. Keep in mind, I am low rank, play part-time and casually, so will never hit purple or red ranks.
I just don't like its play style. If I want to find survivors easily, I can bust out my Doc with his builds for it. And I've gotten bored of playing him for that reason. Sure, I want to sacrifice survivors, but I don't like the idea of Ruin in my builds. It feels like the ultimate crutch perk to me, and that just isn't my preferred play style.
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It's not so much that the game is that grossly imbalanced. It really isn't. The core issue is the absolutely abysmal map designs. It's the maps that require the holy trinity of Billy, Spirit, and Nurse against optimal survivors, because they have the mobility for so many of the large maps. The normal-speed killers simply can't do enough.
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@InfinyMage That's another Interesting point to raise about queue times. Speaking of non-Bloodhunt play, during the day my killer queues average 10 minutes with the higher population. But in the evenings with less population, my killer queues are like 2-4 minutes.
I imagine that on PC a lot of killer players play in the afternoon or something.
I say non-Bloodhunt play, because Bloodhunt killer queues suck all the time.