Blueberry
Blueberry
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@Desolate_Sands said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/804501#Comment_804501
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/804523#Comment_804523
You can, but with the new dedicated servers gen grabs are like 5x harder now because the survivor can interrupt the grab animation by moving; where-as when it was host-based they were pretty much done for the second the grab animation started.
And idk how you are stalking but I find his stalk to be super powerful. Are you face stalking like you are myers? It's pretty much pointless to stalk in the open without add-ons, and should really only be done when peeking a corner. I also partially stalk people and come back to them later sometimes. I always try to 99 people and then do the expose as I actually get to them, instead of exposing them from afar; so they have less chances to get to a pallet.
The extra exposed duration add-ons are incredible, by the way. The green one lets you expose people from afar, get into an extended chase where you kick like 3+ safe pallets, and still 1 shot the survivor at the end.
I'm not referring to gen grabs at all. Gen grabs generally aren't happening at rank 1.
"Are you face stalking like you are myers?"
I play him at rank 1, only an idiot would try to stalk like that.
"It's pretty much pointless to stalk in the open without add-ons, and should really only be done when peeking a corner."
Yup.
Are you playing him at rank 1 while you are trying to stalk people?
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It tells you he's designed badly when the best way to play him is to not even use his power essentially.
Bar some off scenarios trying to stalk just loses you the game.
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Not only would I think this was a terrible idea but BT itself is too strong as a perk and needs to be toned down.
People never learn how to make good saves because of this perk. It rewards bad plays and is highly abusable.
DS fixes the issue you're having with teammates.
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@arslaN said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/804431#Comment_804431
I love going against nurse, but absolutely hate going against spirit. It's not about her being unloopable.
You might as well wrote git gut baby survivor in that post btw
Writing "git gud" isn't contributing to the discussion or being detailed as to why I disagree. Typing that isn't going to get a thought out response or someone to reconsider their view point. It just starts a flame war at each other.
However, that is generally the issue here.
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@hiC said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/804431#Comment_804431
This comment has almost no substance and offers nothing to the discussion. I posted 3 paragraphs about why she's frustrating that you clearly didn't read. This 'survivors are just whiny' rhetoric is a major reason why there is such a divide in the community. The original post acknowledges that there are ways to give yourself a better chance against her.
Let's take your one point and try to expand on it. If Spirit is not pallet loopable, what are the 'lots of counters' survivors can use against her? There have already been comments about how stealth is an option, but it's currently a weak play style. What else do you have for us?
"This comment has almost no substance and offers nothing to the discussion. I posted 3 paragraphs about why she's frustrating that you clearly didn't read."
It entirely does offer substance, you just refuse to believe it. I pointed out that your entire base premise is not correct. I did read it, I just think you are wrong.
"This 'survivors are just whiny' rhetoric is a major reason why there is such a divide in the community."
Because that is actually what is happening. The only people agreeing with you are people who don't actually play both sides at rank 1 to understand the games balance. What IS dividing the community are people pushing for game changes that don't have a full grasp of the game.
"The original post acknowledges that there are ways to give yourself a better chance against her."
"The reason she is disliked is because THERE IS NO LEGITIMATE COUNTERPLAY TO HER POWER."
Yes, you listed some perks yet you also completely contradicted yourself in your same post.
"If Spirit is not pallet loopable, what are the 'lots of counters' survivors can use against her?"
This had already been answered on this post if you simply scroll up as well as ad nauseam in these forums.
You can hear her footsteps quite easily.
You juke your scratch marks by doubling back a different direction.
Lots more walking and less running allows her to be juked quite easily.
If she isn't hearing you she is entirely trying to predict your movement. Be unpredictable.
Fast vault a window and then slow vault back over. Works A LOT.
This is all not taking into account stealth since you already mentioned that and the many perks that counter her as well. Most of those perks are also still very good against other killers. You mention in your original post whether survivors can "afford" to run them. Really? Survivors could literally run zero perks right now and they are still the power role. Yes, they can afford to run any off meta thing they like. I'd even argue Iron Will is hard meta and Spine Chill low key.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/804434#Comment_804434
They're effective against other killers. But not mandatory. If you're trying to counter Spirit. Iron Will is mandatory.
Didn't say they were mandatory.
Iron Will is not mandatory.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/803774#Comment_803774
The problem with your argument about perks is the killer ones work against all survivors. By which I mean Bamboozle will give the same value against every survivor. Running two or three perks to counter one killer is not the same thing.
All of the perks that counter Spirit work great against all killers.
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@hiC said:
I’m going to try to present what I think is a legitimate case as to why Spirit is so frustrating to play against as survivor. I’ve made this comment in a couple threads already, so apologies ahead of time if it seems like I’m repeating myself.
Survivors don’t dislike Spirit because she’s the only Killer that consistently dominates. There are lots of killers that are downright oppressive in the right hands, especially in at rank 1. The reason she is disliked is because THERE IS NO LEGITIMATE COUNTERPLAY TO HER POWER.
A lot of people will discuss the ‘mind game’ when playing with or against Spirit. I don’t actually think there is a mind game. Mind gaming implies that one player is giving out information that forces the other player to make a bad play. While she’s phasing, survivors aren’t getting any information from Spirit. They’re forced to make a guess. That’s not playing a mind game; it’s flipping a coin to see whether or not you take a hit. Oh, and the person flipping the coin can force it to land on heads if they make the right play.
Spirit has an insurmountable advantage while phasing. Audio and collision allow her to collect enough for a hit while rapidly closing distance. Survivors don’t get enough information during her phasing to make an intelligent play against her.
Does she need a nerf? I’m still not really sure. There are a couple loadouts that do counter her. Spine Chill plus Fixated is a new perk combo I’m having success with against her. The more classic counter build that absolutely works is Lithe, Q&Q, DWM, IW. You can compete with her, but it’s going to cost at at least two perk slots. With the current state of the game, can survivors afford to blindly run off-meta perks in order to have a chance against Spirit?
Kind if a long post. I hope this at least respectfully outlines some clear frustrations survivor have with Spirit; regardless of whether or not they’re justified.
Edit: Grammar
"There are lots of killers that are downright oppressive in the right hands, especially in at rank 1."
Against bad survivors. Old nurse was the only one that fit this.
"The reason she is disliked is because THERE IS NO LEGITIMATE COUNTERPLAY TO HER POWER."
No, the reason she is disliked is because most survivors refuse to learn how to counter her and instead come here to forums complaining she has no counter. She has lots of counters. Survivors dislike any killer that isn't pallet loopable in the bully simulator.
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I've said this for a long time. It would be a good change.
3 times is still way, way too abusable for how little time the killers have.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/803863#Comment_803863
Personally, I'd prefer that, too. But how do you bring down SWF without hurting solo survivors and without losing the SWF players? The thing that gives SWF such an advantage is their communication, and there's no way to take that away from them.
I don't believe you can, that's the issue. I think we need a ranked and unranked separate queue.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/803751#Comment_803751
But my point that the game can't be properly balanced between survivors and killers when such an imbalance between just survivors (solo vs swf) exists stands. Solo and swf should be on more equal footing, and then data can be collected to see where killers stand. Otherwise, if killers are nerfed first and then solos are buffed, it may throw the whole system out of whack again. Doing it in the proper order now would save them time, money, and headache later.
I see what you're saying, but I think swf needs to be brought down, not solo's brought up. Having solo's brought to their level provides way too much information and ruins a lot of the games horror factor that you gain from the unknown of a solo game. Killers already need buffs now so if solo's were brought up to swf levels then killers would need massive buffs.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/803553#Comment_803553
I'd like to see solo survivor buffed first before killers start getting brought down. Nurse's add-ons needed fixing. Spirit's Prayer Beads Bracelet add-on should be changed or at least made UR. But big changes to killers should come after buffs to solo survivor; the gap between solo and SWF is too big to be making changes to killers. Nothing can be balanced for both solo and SWF when solo and SWF aren't equal in the least. It's hurting the game.
SWF is still much stronger than solo survivor, yes. However, even as 4 solo's the game is still vastly in the survivors favor bar a few odd exceptional scenarios.
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They need to be buffing weaker killers instead of nerfing the stronger ones. Their priorities are off. Spirit is one of the most balanced killers in the game and is where they should be aiming to get the rest the killers up to, not bringing her down. Obviously they won't call it a "nerf" though, instead they'll just say they are making her more "fun" to go against but in reality it will be a nerf.
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This all depends what your definition of "viable" is.
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DC'ing is against Terms of Service so no it is not allowed.
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Because most the other killers are weak and playing a bully simulator isn't fun. If they'd buff other killers we'd see other killers.
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@noneofyourbusiness said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/790170#Comment_790170
I think that if on both sides of the barricade there is an opportunity to be able to defeat someone who is on the other side with their own skills, then the game is balanced, the key words-"game needs to be interactive"
I would agree. The game balance we currently have does not fit that criteria.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/790035#Comment_790035
Re: balance, I think we as a community make a mistake of assuming they have a similar balance goal that we do. I don't think they've ever acknowledged people's frustrations with the lack of diversity and general high rank experience. I could be wrong though.
"Re: balance, I think we as a community make a mistake of assuming they have a similar balance goal that we do.
Yeah that is what I was referring to. They are aiming for an entirely different "balance" goal that is generally around rank 10 play.
"I don't think they've ever acknowledged people's frustrations with the lack of diversity and general high rank experience. I could be wrong though."
You're not wrong. In all these years and complaints they have not. They want to focus on the larger population at lower ranks for their balance decisions. Red ranks are kinda just left to hang.
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@noneofyourbusiness said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/789910#Comment_789910
I actually r1 killer and r9 survivor
game is survivor sided? why I prefer playing killer idk
as for the maps, I agree
my favourite killers are Spirit too and Nurse, with Nurse I have a lot experience but with Spirit i started (around 100hrs) but I still manage to get r1 on her, she's not hard I think
but you have right most killer doesn't have tools to stop survivors
agree game is a lot better than before but still, devs need to put in it a lot of work to be perfect
I don't think the devs have any intention of fixing the games balance issues to the degree it needs as I think they believe it is currently in a pretty good state.
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Both sides at rank 1.
Game is heavily survivor sided. Maps and perks are designed for low rank survivor skill which leads to high ranks being able to heavily abuse them when they know what they're doing.
I like Spirit personally. There are only a few killers that have any say over how the game goes if the survivors are good and not screwing around. 75% of the killer roster is extremely weak at high levels of play and even that's being generous.
The game is in a much, much better state than it used to be but it still isn't in a good one.
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Intentionally trying to ruin the experience for others.
IE Tbagging/flashlight flicking/spam vaulting over and over on the other side of the map/facecamping/insulting in after game chat/sand bagging your own teammates.
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He needs much more than QoL changes. He needs a lot.
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This poll is gonna be dictated quite a lot by what rank people are playing at.
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Not very good. Needs the cooldown completely removed.
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Even calling it a "slowdown" perk is a stretch. The perks slowdown is near non existent. If it was designed as a slowdown perk at all it is a failure of design. Tracking is about all it's genuinely good for in any meaningful capacity. Blocking gens that no one is working on for an insignificant amount of time is quite pointless.
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Sweaty is just a made up term for people that are salty they lost. There's nothing sweaty about going for a 4k be that slugging or not and regardless of how many gens are left.
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@Speshul_Kitten said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/762116#Comment_762116
13 pages of forum posts I meant. They haven’t been active in the community it seems.
So what is the concern exactly? We know they're active because they've been closing/moving posts recently. Unless there's a post that requires attention or is asking a question of them directly I don't see why they would respond other than just out of their own personal fun.
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People have no idea what you're talking about
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3k+, I couldn't care less about pips
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They seriously need to hire that guy.
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Make it on any down, not just basic attacks and remove the cooldown.
Now it's decent and some people would run it.
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The stack only matters when they're trolling around. I doubt that's really a reason to change that.
That said the perk is currently pretty god awful, even on Huntress. You are wasting a perk slot.
The perk needs a lot of buffs that aren't just numbers.
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@GrootDude said:
“I confirmed this with the data team this morning, the 80% isn't exactly accurate. The stats are taking your rank after the match, not the rank you went in with. The data was also collected between April 1st and April 7th, when it was significantly harder for survivors to pip. As a result, those who died typically deranked back to rank 2 and their death would be counted as a rank 2 death. It was very rare for someone to die at rank 1 and remain rank 1, hence the incredibly high survival rate.
Basically most of the deaths were counting towards rank 2, not rank 1, so the escape rate was much higher than it should be.
I received a stat for the escape rate from the 11th and it was around a 43% escape rate.”
quoted from Peanits, @Blueberry.
That's something. It clears up one of our variables.
However as I've mentioned previously there are multiple other factors that skew those stats that are not being taken into account. Which is also why the devs themselves say the stats shouldn't be taken seriously in terms of using them for balance purposes.
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@Dreamnomad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/759924#Comment_759924
Okay, then the game actually is pretty well balanced by your standards then. The average survival rate across all ranks is really close to 50%.
No, it's not. If you read my previous posts in this thread I go over why it's not multiple times.
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@PGJSF said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/757025#Comment_757025
Ok, really? Spirit is harder than Billy? I don’t think I’ve played something easier than the spirit in any videogame ever.
Billy is the easiest red rank viable killer. Do you actually play killer at rank 1?
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/760179#Comment_760179
Well it is for the reasons I just mentioned.
Just because it isn't 100% perfect doesn't mean it isn't more accurate.
I don't think the aforementioned things denote 55% as being more accurate.
I'm not saying 80% is more accurate either, just simply that we don't have enough data to make that assumption either way.
Multiple factors also make the kill stats at rank 1 (even if they were indeed 100% accurate) not useful for determining balance anyway.
Before I would trust it either way (for balance or simply rank 1 survival rate) I would want a lot more data from a few different areas.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/760085#Comment_760085
Sure but you brought up 80% as a counter argument to the 55% even though 55% was the more accurate number.
I'm not drawing any conclusions based off that number and from what I've heard neither are the devs.
I brought up 80% only because another person was using the same flawed stats. I do not believe 55% is more accurate.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/760007#Comment_760007
if the number is deflated by 10% then it's still closer to the 55% corrected figure the devs gave rather than the 80% given with the "post game rank" check.
Well like I mentioned there are still multiple other factors excluding the DC's so even we assumed 10% I still think it would be brought higher than 55%.
Regardless though, at this point we're getting into a lot of guessing and assumptions so it won't really serve us to much of a conclusion.
My main point is just that we shouldn't really use the data for anything because of how extremely flawed it is by a multitude of factors and unknowns.
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@UltraBanana said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/760022#Comment_760022
If people don't cleanse, they are just a 1 shot all game. Ghostface and myers entire kits involve them having to sneak around stalking people to get the 1 shots and plague just swings her mouse back and forth at each survivor once and it's permanent exposed and they are super loud to boot. It's also easy 4 stack thantophobia. That alone makes her better than like 70% of the killers.
Her corrupt puke is legit broken and there's a reason nobody ever cleanses. It's that OP.
If you are having trouble hitting survivors once after they are already broken.....that's not a problem with plague. That's you as a killer needing to get better.
Try running monitor and abuse so you get closer before they start running, or play with your food for an easy 3x set of down after building stacks, or just run good old enduring + spirit fury for literally free downs.
"Ghostface and myers entire kits involve them having to sneak around stalking people to get the 1 shots and plague just swings her mouse back and forth at each survivor once and it's permanent exposed and they are super loud to boot."
Keep in mind that 1 shottable with Plague isn't even remotely close to 1 shottable with Ghostface or Myers. She has a MUCH larger TR and size which is extremely significant.
"If you are having trouble hitting survivors once after they are already broken.....that's not a problem with plague."
This isn't a true statement. If an M1 killer plays perfectly and a survivor plays perfectly you will not be getting a hit. When you are an M1 killer you rely on survivor mistakes to win.
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Ah interesting, hadn't seen that thank you.
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@Austin_HopeFull said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/759971#Comment_759971
I honestly thought about making one random pool of devotion become corrupt, but then the two add-ons that already make a pool corrupt might have to be reworked. I don’t know.
I don't think that would be too much at all.
Corrupted Vomit is very strong, but I think people understate the heavy negatives attached with it.
Firstly, you have to go way out of your way to pick it up. This wastes a lot of time on a killer that already has less time than all other killers.
Secondly, because you are going out of your way to pick it up that means you aren't getting it mid chase AND the survivors are getting a loud warning, letting them know you have it and to play more passive to wait it out. Quite easily counter played by not even letting you use it IF you got it.
Third, this will roughly also give them an idea as to your current location because they know where they cleansed at to know if they are safe for rescues or continuing on a gen.
Lastly, the obvious free heal you gave them to get the pool corrupted in the first place.
Like I said, it is extremely strong. It just has many, many downsides already attached to it that I don't think getting extra pools would be too much.
People also downplay juking her Corrupted Vomit a lot. You can quite easily loop a Plague with it because of its slow arc speed if you're good enough. Not to mention making them lose it entirely if you stun them.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/759864#Comment_759864
In general yes. But for rank 1 specifically the effect was large enough to outweight that by a HUGE margin.
55% is the number when you do the check properly.
There are still those artificial deflation stuff like DC's ect, but I'd be shocked if DC's alone were enough to account for 30% of all results, since DC's don't even end up being the deciding factor for 100% of Survivors in games where there is a DC.
"But for rank 1 specifically the effect was large enough to outweight that by a HUGE margin."
What are you referencing specifically in order to come to that conclusion? In other words if this is conjecture or based on something concrete.
"55% is the number when you do the check properly."
I don't see what information we have to make this assumption
"but I'd be shocked if DC's alone were enough to account for 30% of all results,"
Heck even 10% would be massive in effecting our conclusions here. There are also multiple other factors excluding DC's as well.
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"Usually, you'll find the people saying that the Plague is overpowered tend to be around Rank 20 to 12; and vice versa with Rank 8 to 1 saying she's underpowered."
Basically yeah. If you know how to loop well (high ranks) she's weak. If you don't know how to loop well (low ranks) she's strong.
"but she will get genrushed the moment people stop cleansing"
Yeah this is her issue at high ranks. No one cleanses which means no time wasted healing which means you are getting gen rushed faster than all the other killers who already get gen rushed fast as hell.
I like your idea but I think we could simplify that by just making 1 random pool auto corrupt every 2min. I'd also like if there was a little more incentive to cleanse as well. Maybe add Oblivious while infected and broken.
I also like this because I think it's just bad design that a killer can simply be denied from using their power the entire match by the survivors and this is what happens regularly at high ranks.
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@Dreamnomad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/759864#Comment_759864
Okay, let's ignore all that for a few minutes. Let me ask you a question. If a killer plays the "perfect" game. He makes the absolute smartest possible strategic decisions and makes the most precise movements humanly possible with his controls. Should that killer get 100% survivor kills in every game he plays? Should the results be the same with every available killer? What if all 4 survivors also play at the absolute pinnacle of a human's abilities? What should the results of those games be according to Blueberry if the game was perfectly balanced?
"Should that killer get 100% survivor kills in every game he plays?"
No, who in the world would agree with that rofl
"Should the results be the same with every available killer?"
No.
"What if all 4 survivors also play at the absolute pinnacle of a human's abilities?"
They shouldn't be able to all survive just like the killer scenario
"What should the results of those games be according to Blueberry if the game was perfectly balanced?"
Same as the devs point out, 50%
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/759828#Comment_759828
Those stats were taking their rank AFTER the match, which made the number inflated.
There are also a multitude of factors that artificial deflate the numbers as well. Rank 1 should not be excluded.
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@Dreamnomad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/759828#Comment_759828
I'm pretty sure that I said to discount the rank 1 results and gave the reason why you should do so. If you look at rank 2-3 you'll see a more accurate result. At rank 2 PC is around 60%, Xbox 57% and PS4 54%.
That's 60, not 55. Also, notice the steep difference between 2-1 which should very much not be taken out even given your reason. Xbox and PS4 will have lower stats because the type of controllers hinders the survivors quite a bit.
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@Dreamnomad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/61114/community-community-data-requests
Here is the data post. If you discount the rank 1 results (which you should), you'll see even red rank survival rate hovers around 55%. That seems fairly reasonable. Are there changes to both sides that I would personally make? Yeah, tons. But who is to say that I would be right and the devs would be wrong? That goes back to the original question I asked. What is balanced?
It's actually 70-80 on the stats they gave
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Almost any pallet that an Ambush "could" work on are mind gameable without it.
Imo the biggest thing hindering Pig is her Ambush and crouch.
Get rid of the roar sound completely or at the very least make it roar after the ambush lands. The sound ruins a lot of its viability.
Secondly, raise the view point of her crouch, it's too low.
This would make her Ambush more useful in chase.
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Playing killer will feel OP when you're playing at low rank. Once you get to red ranks is where you realize how weak most killers really are and understand the balance issues in the game.
As others have mentioned the key imbalances come the most from extremely poor map design where most of them favor survivors significantly.
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@Liruliniel said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/759347#Comment_759347
Dont worry about it and thanks for the help man o really appreciate it. I eventually want to be able to play every killer so I can go through each one every day xD
Anytime lol