hiC
hiC
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- hiC
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I really like playing Vroom Vroom nurse.
Use the add on that takes away blink after successful blink hits and increases speed to 4.6 m/s. Second add on can be whatever but I like the one that makes survivors scream when you blink past.
Perks are just standard meta nurse perks from before; Sloppy, Ruin, BBQ, Nurse’s Calling.
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Are we pretending it was community members instead of devs that said Spirit is over performing now?
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@Endstille said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/821286#Comment_821286
Don't take it too hard it is just mocking by now from me. The thing is that there are so many threads on this forum with the same subject which bring the same arguments over and over again and they have to be repeated over and over. Just like you said, it hasn't been posted in this thread, true but there are several others.
Maybe @Rizzo90 or another mod, could merge all these threads regarding nerf so it is one huge thread which might make more sense so the forum is not filled with this subject and people can read all the arguments evidence etc...
And now just for you @hiC there you go.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/503061323?collection=wLSpgsc_1RUV3g this should be PC and lots of spirit as killer in those games. Hope that helps.
Thanks for the link. I'll keep an open mind and report back in.
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@Endstille said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/102393/stop-the-fun-is-subjective-mantra
Because you and other people made this statement when talking about spirit. People like @Scottjund said it is not whether spirit is op or not it is just not fun to play against. People posted counterplay several times (as video evidence) and the people who want changes dont give a damn.
BHVR nerfs, go figure.
If you want to reduce the Legitimate Case Against Spirit thread down to me saying 'she's not fun', I don't really have a response for you. I tried to respectfully and thoughtfully explain that there isn't reliable counter play compared to other killers. There was no video evidence of reliable counters posted to that thread. I'd be happy to see that and reconsider.
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@FriendlyGuy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/820932#Comment_820932
And the data plus the forum posts clearly showed, that her addons were the problem. Still no valid explanation for the base nurse nerf. Except subjective "fun".
Where is the data available?
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@FriendlyGuy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/820862#Comment_820862
Old legion also was the most balanced version of themselves IN THEORY. They could be genrushed, but had no other reliable counter, so they were unfun as bad word.
They obviously need to consider both sides when making changes. I don't think it's fair to say they don't think about how much fun a killer as.
Also, they have access to actual data they can use to inform their decisions. I'm sure they don't just balance based on forums posts alone.
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@FriendlyGuy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/818875#Comment_818875
Balancing has nothing to do with fun. Old omega nurse was insane fun for some killers, for others it was boring, because it was so easy. For survivors it was a bad word bad word bad word. Base nurse was fun for most players, killers and survivors. New nurse with specific addons is fun for both sides. New base nurse is not fun for killers and fun for survivors.
Basically new base nurse is reverted omega nurse, if you look at fun. But more balanced than her current state (with addons).
So old base nurse was the most fun for everyone, right? And also the most balanced iteration of her, right? Do you still think balance and fun are unrelated?
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@Rin_is_my_waifu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/820389#Comment_820389
This is not a bait. I'm allowed to express my opinion, I won't ask you for permission.
Please @Rizzo90 I interpret this as personal attack
Right; sarcastic replies with 0 substance bringing up Spirit balance in every thread is just “sharing your opinion”. Gotcha.
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@Awakey said:
"If the game is balanced, it will be fun"
That's subjective. Take Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. I understand it's a different kind of game, but hear me out. MW2 was probably the most unbalanced CoD out there. But it was fun as hell. Constant chaos ruled by like 3 guns was fun. Similar concepts can be applied to DbD.
Balanced =/= fun.
Everyone had access to the same loadout. Can you explain how that’s unbalanced?
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@Ark_the_Bonsai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/818864#Comment_818864
I distinctly remember them saying in one of their streams that some killers are made to be strong, others are made to be fun. This was their excuse for a killer being incredibly weak (I think it was Legion related.)
Struggling to find it again. If anyone has a link to that livestream I'd be eternally grateful
Implying that killers are either strong OR fun? They said that? Seems like those things aren’t mutually exclusive.
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@xRem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/820389#Comment_820389
How is he baiting? He has an opinion and shares it when he sees fit,hes not hurting anyone or really bating anyone.
Check the forum rules if you’re not sure what baiting is.
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@Rin_is_my_waifu said:
Stop the "Spirit is not fun" mantra
@Peanits, can we get something done about this guy baiting in every thread on the front page, please?
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@Auron471 said:
People are always complain about getting 5 spirits in a row or something in red ranks... but...
Ive seen like 2 or 3 spirits so far in red ranks. Surprisingly ive seen a decent variety of killers in red ranks. Pig, wraith, bubba, plag, no billies for some reason, and freddy.
And most of the spirits i face in rad ranks are actually really boosted, and I would get bully them. Then die because i would be the last person left alive since people cant vs spirit lol.
I’ve been preaching this sentiment a lot recently. Lots of killers are viable at red ranks. I always assume people that spout the “only 3 killers are viable at red ranks” meme don’t actually play at red ranks.
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@ZerLukas said:
"If the game is balanced, it will be fun."
That's simply incorrect. A lot of people found DBD to be quite fun in 2016 despite it being very much unbalanced.
Don't get me wrong, balance is very important, but balance and fun are 2 completely different things. They intercept, usually in "being on a recieving end of an unbalanced mechanic is not fun", but it doesn't work vice versa - as in "a completely balanced game still can be unfun".
That's kinda what happened to Nurse - balance-wise she's probably better now but she became very much unfun to play as, because you have to wait 3-6 seconds after each move which results in almost half a match of inactivity. That kills her for me.
And sure as hell fun is subjective. Even when we discuss a single character, addon, item or perk being used, half of us primarily considers how fun is it using that while the other half primarily considers how fun is it versing that. That's as subjective as it gets.
DBD wasn’t unbalanced in 2016; it was less balanced. My premise isn’t that you cannot have fun with a less balanced game. It’s that the the more balanced it is, the more fun it will be for more people.
Your example about nurse might ring true for a lot of people, but it only shows the killer perspective. You touch on that in the last paragraph. The same thing happened with survivors and flashlights. They were the strongest item in the game. They needed to be balanced. It may have been less fun for survivors when they were nerfed, but overall the game was moved into a better place.
YES, WE ALL KNOW AND AGREE THAT FUN IS SUBJECTIVE. The point I’m trying to make is that when someone lays out a thoughtful idea as to why something might need to be tuned for balance, the inevitable “well, fun is subjective” reply is unnecessary and not constructive.
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Scooby Doo mode has me chortling pretty good.
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@DeKillerKiller said:
As a Freddy Main. I only have one thing to say to survivors.
Welcome to my world, #########!
“Welcome to prime time, #########!”
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It’s actually a pretty cool idea. Imagine having to be a David main for Dead Hard 3 though? Ewww
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@brokedownpalace said:
The problem is for many people only winning is fun. They need to escape or 4k the majority of the time or the game is unfun/imbalanced.
This also bothers me. I have plenty of trials that are fun where I die for 4 survivors get out and I still have fun. Winning and fun are not mutually exclusive.
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/818912#Comment_818912
No..they arnt measuring anything..they're just using it as justification..that's what your missing
If you think the Devs are just making decisions based in forum posts I don’t know how to continue the conversation.
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@xRem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/818904#Comment_818904
The majority said base nurse was balanced, even being in a tier of her own.
But killer in their own tier should be fixed? Bubba, wraith and doctor have some words for you oh wait, it isnt balance for both sides being balanced for, sure we have a doctor "rework" and freddy but there are still so many low tiers no one looks at.
Oh wait I forgot, survivors aren't consistently losing to them, so they aren't being cried about daily. Notice the irony? It's unfair to one side but since its killer there aren't thousands of post dedicated to any one of them, isn't it the same concept? But not in killers favor, hence why it's not getting as much attention.
I don’t disagree that weaker killers should get buffed. I’m glad the Fredster is solid now. Bubba and Wraith should get some love if they’re underperforming! I agree with you!
Why would you be surprised if survivors were speaking out if they’re CONSISTENTLY losing to someone? Aren’t they supposed to be winning around half their games?
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/818875#Comment_818875
Lol no they are using fun as a means to make changes that affect balance..theres quite a difference in that..and nurses addons were definitely in need of adjustment but the cooldown only served to make her more difficult yet perform worse..that's the worst kind of balance change..and one that only benefitted one side
How are they using fun as a means if IF IT IS SUBJECTIVE AND CANNOT BE MEASURED. They couldn’t possibly be using fun as a metric to change balance because you can’t quantity fun. What you’ve just said is literally impossible.
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@xRem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/102393/stop-the-fun-is-subjective-mantra
Who decides balance? Who decides what is unbalanced? You cant,if 2 things are different one will be better.
You cant balance for fun because everyone has a different definition as you said. But it's the same thing was "balance" or "fairness" who decides what is and isn't? If its numbers, do they take into account skill? Time played? Dcs? Sucides? Swfs?
You cant make anything balanced completely for the same reason you cant balance for fun.
The devs decide what’s balanced. They have the objective data available to inform that decision.
There are tons of factors to consider, as you’re rightly pointing out. That’s why aggregates and averages are what you’d use to inform your decisions; not anomalies and outliers.
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@NinoV1 said:
Fun is completely subjective. Whether the game is balanced or not is also subjective, it’s asymmetrical so true balance is never gonna be achieved.
What you might find fun and balanced someone else might find OP and boring, hence the spirit debate.
Its never gonna end so probably make your peace with it.
Balance is only partially subjective. We could apply in game statistics to objectively prove points (IF WE HAD THEM!!!).
That last sentence might be the most sensible and important thing I’ve ever been told in these forums.
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Then let’s have 4 Devs play survivor against Borgia’s or Piper’s Billy to prove the opposite point!
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/818864#Comment_818864
Their last broadcast..they said when they look at a character their priority is to and I quote "make them more fun to play and play against " but as you can see for the nurse..that's only half true..
...by making them more balanced. Fun is a result of creating balanced gameplay.
Pre-change nurse was UNANIMOUSLY considered the to be a killer in her own tier. She was not the baseline for balanced gameplay; she was far and away an exception in the killer pool.
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@immortalls96 said:
Tell that to the devs
Show me where the devs have said they’re balancing the game around fun. I’ll wait.
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I had 25 vials today but I apparently had 10 left over from last year.
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@sorrowen said:
"Fun" is a subjective thing and not one you can consistently balance a game on its very subjective.
We know fun is subjective. Everyone can stop making this their mantra now.
Nobody is saying to balance the game around fun. It the game is balanced, it will be fun. Fun is a result of balance, not a metric to balance around.
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@xRem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/817564#Comment_817564
Collision isn't good for survivors, they phrasing i used was not what i meant, i meant that it isn't as bad as its described as if your not hugging walls it wont usually effect you. if spirit doesn't have collision with survivors and this isn't a nerf but a "Quality of life change to be more fun for both" there would need to be something in exchange for this. which would you rather, a spirit getting a few hits because she bumped into you because you hugged a wall or spirit being faster or having a longer phase so that she had more map pressure. maybe something else what do you think?
Thanks for clarifying. I think the collision would be fine to leave in if she either wasn’t as fast during phasing, or provided more information about where she is during phasing.
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@xRem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/817513#Comment_817513
Collision is actually good for survivors, imagine your about to make a pallet but she goes through you and appears, you die when before you could have thrown it and it removes body blocking for team mates. I've had so many survivors use it to find me at pallets and slam them. For 1 bs hit collision gives survivors theres 3 survivors that live because of it.
Why do people keep saying this? It feels like a weird attempt at reverse Psychology.
Collision is TERRIBLE for survivors. It’s a direct counter to Iron Will, walking, faking or re-vaulting a window, and juking with your scratch marks. Which are, by the way, the “counters” that come out of every killer’s mouth when these threads come up.
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How about a BR mode too? You run around the map to pick up perks and items.
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Another straw man post on Spirit.
Nobody in the community is calling her game breaking. There have been plenty of reasonable opinions about her shared; none of them are calling her a game breaker. The DEVS (NOT SURVIVORS!!!) indicated that she’s over performing.
Thats said, I completely agree that DC penalties should be a top priority right now. It’s not fun or fair for anyone.
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@Raven014 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/814658#Comment_814658
Don't be predictable enough to be bumped into.
Yep, pretty simple when you put it that way. Thanks for the insight.
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@Awakey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/814754#Comment_814754
You asked for counterplay. I gave you counterplay.
So just to clarify, the counter for Spirit colliding with you while phasing and immediately coming out to get a hit is:
Just fast vault a window then slow vault back over.
Needed to write that down for everyone else who ‘refuses to learn how to counter Spirit’.
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@Awakey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/814692#Comment_814692
Like I said; assume the Survivor is running. Performing a Fast Vault then immediately slow vaulting is a great way to bamboozle the Spirit.
And what does that have to do with collision?
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@Awakey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/814670#Comment_814670
Drop the pallet or vault the window. She isn't Nurse. She can't phase through walls.
Vaulting a window is 100% not viable; you do not have time to perform a slow/medium vault before she cancels phasing and gets a hit.
Dropping a pallet I’ll give you, but it’s a pure guess that she’s on that side of you. You would have to be walking at the pallet to know that. If you’re standing still you don’t actually know is she’s running into you.
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@Awakey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/814658#Comment_814658
If you're close enough to the pallet (or window), you'll avoid the hit.
How do you avoid it? Being near a pallet or window isn’t going to affect her ability to immediately cancel phasing and get a hit.
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@Awakey said:
Not only is this a terrible bandaid fix, but actually hurts you more than it helps. Being able to phase through Survivors pretty much makes all current counterplay obsolete. Let's propose a scenario.
A healthy Survivor is running towards a pallet. He is somewhat close and being pursued by a phasing Spirit. If the Spirit has collision, and the Survivor knows, then the Survivor can play around it. He has a chance of not being hit.
Now if we take away Spirits collision, the Survivor basically has to pray that the Spirit has the collective IQ of a baked potato. If they don't, it's a guaranteed hit because the Survivor, by this point very close to the pallet, is now running straight into a Spirit that phased through them to the pallet.
Now, before I get flamed, allow me to suggest changes to the Spirit. I would leave her the way she is, but if I had to change her, this is how.
- Make injured Survivor sounds omnidirectional.
- Make scratch marks appear sporadically, rather than exactly how they would be seen had you not phased.
- Rework prayer beads to revert the scratch marks change above.
That's it. Thoughts? Please be civil.
I don’t understand what the counter play as survivor is. The Spirit runs into you while phasing, immediately comes out and gets a hit. What’s the counter? You hope that she’s on the same side of you as the pallet and throw it?
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@Xerge said:
I've said this before; if you are too good at finding survivors and finishing chases you'll get frustrated and waste time because you'll probably get hit by a ds. I know a solution to this is slugging, but I just want to hear your thoughts on how the game doesn't make it easier for the killer when he is being too efficient while survivors do have it easier when they are doing gens as fast as possible.
In my opinion something doesn't feel right about this.
The same thing happens to survivors who play “too” optimally. If there’s no altruism to get because nobody is going down and all you do is gens and leave, you’re not getting BP or pips.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/813773#Comment_813773
Actual discussion: I can’t impose loops on Spirit when she phases, therefore she is broken. I have to guess, like with almost every other game known to man.
On a more serious note, a game’s balance is subjective. Plenty of survivors on this forum would be A okay with legitimate infinites being in the game because they find them “fun”. Why is asking people to learn so taboo?
The killer/survivor chase interaction is the core game play mechanic. Compared to every other killer in the game, Spirit is an extreme outlier in terms of how this core game play mechanic plays out. How is pointing that out so taboo?
Balance is not completely subjective. A lot of PVP games are objectively balanced. They give each player access to the exact same tool set; CS, chess. Beyond that, you can actually apply numbers like kills/game or chase time to balance discussions in DBD. Fun is subjective. Balance may be to a point, but it can certainly be discussed with some objective information.
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@DeKillerKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/813774#Comment_813774
Don't know man, I remembered being absolutely moried by 4 of her.
I assume you’ll be seeing yourself out?
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I still ‘tater out every once in a while.
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@humanbeing1704 said:
nEa is the killur hurr durr god that was never funny
Oooooh good one.
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I don’t understand this post or why it’s upvoted so much.
Games that are balanced are fun. How can you refute that?
If you keep this game balanced it will remain fun. If you can improve the balance it will me more fun for more people. If you don’t improve balance where possible, it will be less fun.
Plenty of legitimate criticism that is explained way beyond ‘it’s not fun’ has been provided for Spirit and generator speed. Anyone agreeing with this post isn’t actually paying attention to the discussions.
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@pemberley said:
You try to stick around, click your flashlights, and teabag, you should accept the consequences of not escaping when you should have.
This is inspired by a Steve and Claudette who stayed to bm, triggered my tier 3, and the Steve miscalculated the distance from the edge and I picked him up - when he promptly disconnected lol. Pathetic classic survivors - they can dish it out but little toddlers can take it better than they can! Still would be nice if there was a mechanic that punished both of them for their bad manners.
What are the rules on trying to blind a killer at the exit to boost boldness points?
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Pablo and/or Kelly so Ash has some friends.
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Balanced Landing
Spine Chill
Fixated
Borrowed Time
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@Financial_Stability said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/808173#Comment_808173
What I believe is that balance should be coming from the top, and the players should be adapting and learning from other skilled players. If I may bring up an example, R6 Siege balances around their competitive scene, their top players to a very good degree of success. For overall longevity and health, balancing around the top tends to give the game a longer life. Eventually, DBD will die down in popularity, and all that will be left is the hardcore fanbase, which are the people who've put serious time and effort into becoming very skilled.
With a game balanced around a median of players, you relinquish the right to have actual fair play. Balance inconsistencies will arise simply due to better players utilizing unbalanced mechanics that might have a higher barrier to entry than the average player cares to get to. Instead of making the process of getting good rewarding and fair, you'd be trying to cheese the most unbalanced mechanics to your favor. OoO is an excellent example of this.
It's remained unchanged since it's release for the most part. It's a perfect information perk that neuters over half the roster. There's maybe two killers that you'd be in an actual disadvantage if you were to use the perk. Even now, it kills Trapper to the point of him being a simple M1 killer and in a coordinated SWF, neuters Hag to an outstanding degree.
I say this from experience, as I have participated in many tournaments ranging from low profile to very high profile. My team, Instant Dodge, have won TydeTyme's 750$ tournament and several of Space Esports' weekly ritual tournaments that went for 150$ for first place. Of course after Marth started helping them out, they've gotten a lot better since the anniversary tournament. But this is just to state my credibility.
This also brings up the issue of SWF. If I'm going to be honest, it'd be dumb to nerf it directly or remove it. Instead, I personally believe that the game should implement voice chat for solos so they have the opportunity to not get left out if a nerf meant for swf ends up hurting solos far worse. Given there needs to be an option to mute certain players and mute it entirely for obvious reasons.
From that I can finally see the playerbase agreeing to balance the game towards the top players, SWF in particular.
That would of course mean major killer overhauls, but for the health of the game I think this is a necessary step in order to reach true balance. That's my perspective.
I can respect the experience you have and where your opinions are coming from. There are several big issue with balancing around the top great players.
In your opinion we don’t actually know who the best players are because the ranking system is too lenient. I don’t know how it would be reworked to reflect true player skill.
There isn’t enough mechanical skill involved in DBD to actually separate the very good players from the great players. It’s not like R6, CSGO, LOL, OW. You can’t actually rely on or express mechanical skill the same way as those games allow. DBD is more about game sense, awareness, and general knowledge. What is the criteria that separates very good players from great players?
If the ranking system were more strict and less players were rank 1, there would be far fewer matches between rank 1 players because of how the match making works. Rank 1 players would either have unfavorable queue times or be matched with lesser ranked players. Could you actual collect the data you need to balance around the top players I’d they’re playing less games against each other?
Thank for the interesting perspective and discussion!
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@Financial_Stability said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/808147#Comment_808147
Again you're misunderstanding me. I never said that rank doesn't at all correlate to skill. What I am saying is that rank only correlates to skill to a certain point. Beyond simply "good at the game" the ranking system has no means to differentiate between the very skilled and the simply good. That's my issue. Red ranks are crowded with players that aren't the most skilled in the game. That's why I bring up the possibility to 4k with Wraith against red rank players, it shows that Rank doesn't correlate to skill beyond a certain point.
Sorry for misunderstanding again and thanks for clarifying.
What bearing does very skilled vs competent vs average vs casual have on balancing the game? Nobody is saying the game is or needs to be balanced around red rank game play. I actually think the consensus is that the game is mostly balanced around purple-green ranks, where the majority of the player base is.
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@Financial_Stability said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/808107#Comment_808107
I never said that you will consistently 4k with wraith with no addons (and I said addons, not no perks) but the fact you can says a lot. The reason I bring up rank being considered as what's most considered is because it's the only official metric they have to judge player "skill." That's the whole point. To get ranking to show actual player skill, not a subset of actions that have nothing to do with your actual objective.
Sorry I misunderstood the Wraith example.
I see survivors getting 3-4 escapes with no items regularly. By the same logic, doesn’t that mean that all the Rank 1 killers are actually potatoes? I disagree that performance without add ons or items actually has much relevance.
Rank does correlate to skill. It’s a dumb DBD community meme to say it doesn’t. There are regular posts here about how ‘unfun’ it is to play a red ranks. You know why that is? Both sides play more efficiently. Killers know how to leverage their powers. Survivors know their loops and pallet spawns. The higher ranks are home to the better players.