Arcturus
Arcturus
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I was also very disappointed in the survivor perk changes, but to be fair about Nurse this was never supposed to be a killer update patch. I'm also hoping to see some Nurse nerfs, but I had no reason to expect them going into this PTB as I knew it was focused on perk changes and the chat wheel.
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You could have just put this all in one post instead of adding more and more comments to it.
But if you genuinely enjoy Whispers, this is a buff not a nerf. Reducing the range gives you a wayyyy better idea of where you should be looking for survivors. The current range of 32 meters covers like a quarter of the map a lot of the time, and is most useful when there are less survivors or on bigger maps. The new Whispers carries the same strengths but is much more useful on smaller maps and in general gives a much more defined area of where the killer should look.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117914#Comment_4117914
There are more of them obviously on the survivor side. Let's say Twins vs Heal Perks, Oni vs antislug perks etc. I believe I don't have to name them all do I? :)
Those aren't the same at all. Yes anti-slug and heal perks are powerful against killers that excel at slugging and snowballing matches like Twins and Oni, but their power works just fine. Twins, depending on the situation, might be a bit more impacted if Victor downs someone across the entire map from Charlotte, but especially Oni can just down a survivor then pick them up. It's not like running WGLF suddenly makes Victor indept or disables Oni's ability to go into power, they are just strong perks against their optimal gameplay.
Going against a plague makes heal perks do completely nothing, except if you get the rare chance to heal a slug on the ground and your healing perk also applies in that situation. Going against a Judgment makes any hooks based off of unhooking a survivor, getting hooked, or anything to do with a survivor being carried do completely nothing. If you run perks like Overcome against Billy, unless the Billy is willing to m1 you the perk does nothing.
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@Xendritch said:
I have no clue how you get stakeout as trash when you get to just obliterate 16% of a gen if you're good at hitting skill checks, perk is scary now. I also don't know how the Windows change is a nerf if you're a good player. Vault speed is extremely valuable and if you can make sure you have a pallet to vault for finesse and just alternate cool downs the killer is going to have a tough time catching you so I see it as a buff.
Slippery Meat again is a subtle effect but is honestly pretty good it basically means the killer can't really stop a person from unhooking you. I would like to see the speed buff go to 10% because of DR the current buff is really 2.5% so I'd like to actually get the 5% extra speed.
Also different issue but no clue how you categorized some of these killer buffs like insidious is still mostly a meme (I promise you killers don't wanna play red light green light for some stealth) and you're heavily underestimating how insane Dark Arrogance is now. Just having 5 stacks of STBFL at all times is nuts when you can stack it with actual STBFL and Rapid Brutality for effectively a max of 14 stacks of STBFL.
I will say I would've liked for BHVR to explore more survivor playstyles with this patch since vault speed is really the only new build that comes from this otherwise it's small boon buffs, small chest buffs (which are a meme anyway), and skill check builds which I think are good now but not particularly exciting to me.
Have you tried using Stake Out on the PTB? It's incredibly difficult to get value out of. As I said in my response to @ShanoaLegendaryPlz The tokens can easily be wasted on healing (and 4% on a heal is infinitely less valuable than on a gen). In addition to that, you have to be within the killers TR but also within 24m of them for 15s just for one stack. So it has the same weakness as before where Undetectable counters it, and yet you also have to be even closer to the killer and can't get stacks off "fake" terror radiuses. In my time trying it, it's been a waste of a perk slot, and half the times I even managed to get a stack I had to heal and it got wasted.
I categorized WoO as a nerf because it wasn't used as a power perk like Finesse or SB, it was used as a solo queue, beginner and comfort perk. No perk combo now can give you the same effect, they all have cooldowns or conditions. The vault speed technically makes it better for more experienced players, but because it goes on cooldown and only applies to windows, the fact that it works at any health state just isn't worth it over 20% vault speed from Finesse on both pallets and windows while healthy, or a similar 9% vault speed from Resi on both pallets and windows with no cooldowns while injured. Unfortunately Spine Chill is much worse, usually activating while the killer is still 40m away and putting your perk into cooldown before you even get the chance to use it.
Slippery Meat I don't think is trash or anything, but it's not that great. For personal anti-tunnel perks DS remains the only decent way to protect yourself.
Insidious I thought was going to be about the same, but because it gives you Undetectable on command it is insane with killers like Bubba. It might not be as powerful if all the survivors are on comms, but against your average lobby, especially with info perks to know when to use it, getting Undetectable on command can get you many free downs. I haven't played with Dark Arrogance myself yet, but I categorized it simply as "buff" because I already thought it was a big buff, although the downside is a bit worse. Of course combining it with STBFL causes diminished returns, so it really gives you what would be 10.5 stacks of STBFL at full stacks.
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@Elan said:
New meta of insanely quick basic attack cooldown is coming. Meta od passive regression is coming. What do you mean? Those changes are good. You have undestroyable activatable ruin. Tunneling got buffed, now survivors will have max 10s of protection and you are guaranteed to tunnel someone out at 4 hooks if multiple shoulders are in the game. Survivors got some crazy heal buffs which will allow them to reset better now when Vigil no longer reduces antiheals. Vault speed meta is coming. There are a lot of options to pick from. I agree that meta, especially killer meta was untouched but in the end do you think people would not complain if devs completely overnerf pain res, pop, corrupt, eruption, nowhere to hide or lithe, finesse, deja vu, resilience? I doubt people will take it.
Yes basic attack cooldown perks got huge buffs / changes, so did passive regression. And yes, you are right, tunneling just became even more meta once again because yet another anti-tunnel perk got massively nerfed.
But what do you mean "crazy heal buffs"? 15% more on Empathic Connection, the same as Botany already was? Or the Do No Harm skill check buff that I tried out for several games and makes almost zero difference? The Solidarity buff that essentially was just a QoL change?
And the idea of a vault speed meta is laughable. With Finnesse, WoO, and Spine Chill you can max get 27.5% vault speed on a half a minute cooldown if they even all work at the same time, Finesse does 20% all on its own. If you run the new vault speed perks on their own, WoO is just an in between of Finesse and Resi, you can run Finesse for a much more noticeable effect while healthy or run Resi for zero cooldown, but at least WoO works no matter the health state, even if it is on a cooldown. Spine Chill is a joke because it procs while the killer is still 40m away, it's always on cooldown when you actually need it.
And yes, you are also right that genrush is nerfed because Stake Out is now completely terrible.
People are upset about the changes, people who play survivor, because they got hit the hardest. StB got nerfed to the ground and WoO, a perk that was only picked so much for comfort and for new players, got changed into something completely different, and no matter what perk combo you do, even dedicating 3 slots, you will not be able to get the exact same effect.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117874#Comment_4117874
Well but this is both sides issue right? If you bring healing build and face Plague you have no perks. If you bring overcome and face Hillbilly you have no perk, If you bring antislug and killer doesn't slug it does nothing either. The perks are not meant to have guaranteed value every game. Or do you think that perks like We See You are trash because killer can bring zero aura perks? Knight guards destroyed by exhaustion perks? Full aura deleted by shadowstep and so on?
I like that you said it's a both sides issue as you list off only survivor perks and builds
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I don't think so, unless it's a big someone else may have had it as well if there were other survivors alive, it's a pretty popular perk to try out on the PTB
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Idk about the 9.3.0 PTB rework of BT coming to the game, but the current PTB version is even more useless than you think. It's specifically "When you gain Deep Wound from Endurance," so it does not work against killer powers that put you directly into mending state. So it has no use against Ghoul, Deathslinger, Houndmaster, or Legion, although with Legion it might have been an active detriment considering it might enable them to combo more.
The only use I've seen anybody come up with is taking aggressive protection hits for the person who unhooked you when you are unhooked, then 30s later you can use Dead Hard. Which encourages body blocking with unhook protections, very healthy design lmao. Otherwise it's completely useless and only saves you a few seconds on a mend.
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@MDRSan said:
Overall this whole thing feels like they started with killer complaints and improvements and then by the time they got to looking at survivor focused improvements they were up against the PTB deadline so they rushed some number updates so survivors at least got something other than a bunch of nerfs. Either that or they legitimately only listen to killer players and content creators.
Even the dev notes sound forgiving to killers and hostile to survivors. Survivor perks synergizing with each other is apparently a big problem and 'limiting design space' meanwhile killer perks synergizing with each other, killer powers, or killer add-ons is fun and adding variety. In the few instances where killers did get a nerf to a perk working with their power, like with Dissolution/Feral Frenzy, their dev note language is super soft like they need to coddle them into accepting the nerf.
Overall no real new builds for survivors to try out while a couple existing survivor builds got nuked. All this while killers are getting handed a bunch of new toys while they're already performing well. Enjoy your queue time folks - you've earned it.
Yeah I'm really not sure what they were thinking. It's hard because I want updates like this to be reoccurring because there are so many perks that need love, and having a huge perk update like this is a great thing and I want to encourage the devs that it is a great thing. But at the very least, this go of it was a pretty big flop for survivors. We got a few decent buffs to make some bad perks usable to make up for the fact that several perks are getting nerfed hard while killers got genuinely interesting and powerful perk updates.
I wouldn't be so upset if it weren't for the fact that the last several patches have all been very killer sided as well. The new killers are all extremely strong or giga buffed to be extremely strong, the previous perk changes hit survivors infinitely harder, and the last perk survivors were genuinely excited about was Cross-Examination which got nerfed to the ground. But hey, at least in the last few months we got Lend A Hand and Wide Open Throttle which are okay / gimmicky fun.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
Havent tried new stakeout myself but 4% per skill check on anything you are skillchecking still seems kinda nice, like having passive bardic inspiration with a roll over 10 whichout having to do the animation. (Unless the "special skill checks" are tough to hit, havent seen them yet)
The special skill checks are basically like DS. They're not hard, but if you got a stack and get on a gen without realizing it could screw you over. The tokens can also still be wasted on healing (and 4% on a heal is infinitely less valuable than on a gen). In addition to all that, you have to be within the killers TR but also within 24m of them for 15s just for one stack. So it has the same weakness as before where Undetectable counters it, and yet you also have to be even closer to the killer and can't get stacks off "fake" terror radiuses. In my time trying it, it's been a waste of a perk slot.
Saw your comment on another thread though, congrats on the Better Than New buff! It's certainly one of the nicer changes.
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@random1543 said:
Yeah Agree with you.
I dont understand BHVR logic. It will just make more people who mainly play survivor like myself to just go play killer and add to the que times.Yeah, it's tough because some of the changes I think are still good. In the list, all the perks from Blood Pact all the way down to This Is Not Happening are good changes (although again, HF needs to be changed). But it really seems like the focus for survivor perks was QoL and making meme perks less of a troll while the killer perk focus was making weak perks strong.
And honestly, when they said they'll be changing some "problematic perks" that incentivize unhealthy play styles, my first thoughts were perks like Infectious and Forced Hesitation, but no apparently Windows of Opportunity was problematic lmao.
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@dangersmymidd1ename said:
Stake Out is like a free Overcharge for the killer when you start repairing, if you have gained a token without realising. 14% generator regression and an explosion. Stake Out is now exactly the opposite of what it did before.
Honestly the bigger problems with Stake Out now are
- It takes 15s of being near the killer to get you 4% that you have to hit a difficult skill check on
- You can waste that 4% on healing still which is infinitely less valuable
- It's not even based on TR anymore, you have to be within 24m. So basically you have to sniff the killers butt for it to do anything
The perk is terrible now, and now with This Is Not Happening, if anything, Hyperfocus got indirectly buffed because on decent players it's way more consistent.
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Love how this update SP got cut in half and StB got murdered in the back alley with most of the other survivor perk changes honestly being closer to QoL updates rather than meaningful buffs, while most of the killer perk changes make them actually strong and some of them might contest the meta.
I like to see more perks becoming viable and strong, but survivors got the short end of the stick once again.
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@Elan said:
Community hates his stalker identity to be gone.
I would like to see those two modes which can be swapped:
- Stalking for auras (mirror basekit) you are undetectable and can see auras of survivors within 32m. Cannot progress evil incarnate. (Most loved and played Myers build n. 1)
- Stalking for power: Each survivor can be stalked to quickly fill your power. Once the power is filled you gain access to mori any healthy, injured or dying survivor. Automatically ends evil incarnate. (Most placed and loved Myers build n. 2)
I'm not sure where you're getting this from, but I recently realized a lot of people hate Scratched Mirror now. Because Stalker mode by default gives you 4.2 movement speed, and with an addon you move at 4.4 (as fast as a ranged killer or hag), it is infinitely easier and more viable than it was before. With old Scratched Mirror Myers, you were the same speed as survivors and could not increase your movement speed, the only thing you could do was run an addon so you could actually lunge at all. This change unfortunately transformed a cute, meme play style for jump scares and entertainment that I loved into a more "viable" option that people inevitably started using to more effectively camp and tunnel when team have no comms.
Even more than that, I'm not sure where you are getting the information that old Tombstone Piece Myers was beloved and should return. Tombstone Myers was the biggest complaint about Myers for years and was incredibly unfun to go against. Spending the entire game away from the killer and just sitting on a gen all to immediately get permanently removed from the match is not exactly interactive gameplay. There's a reason people hate the Condemned play style of Sadako.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117390#Comment_4117390
Well both nurse and blight have been nerfed pretty similar amounts of times in recent years, the difference is nurse nerfs were a slap on the wrist compared to blight nerfs which massively hurt him.
The gap between nurse and other killers is getting real close now that there's just no point nerfing her when bhvr is starting to release killers that match or even exceed her powerlevel. Clearly they are setting the precedent that new killers and reworks to come will be stronger or equal in power to nurse, so if we are concerned about nurse's power level we should be far more concerned about all the new killers which are about to come.
If the argument for nerfing nurse and not judgement is that judgement has a skill curve, nurse has a thousand times greater of a skill curve than her. Judgement is brainless compared to nurse, it's simply that judgement has only just been released, whereas nurse has been in the game for 10 years.
I fundamentally disagree with a lot of what you said here. Honestly every change to both Nurse and Blight have been slaps on the wrist, especially considering they have not budged from the top 2 spots for their entire lifespans.
The gap between Nurse and Blight is very small at this point, however even the gap between Nurse and a killer like Dracula, who usually is considered somewhere around the 5th or 6th strongest killer in the game, is still way too big. And that's Dracula. Ignoring the D and C tier killers that obviously need buffs, even compared to B tier or A tier killer Nurse is monumentally stronger. Do you really think Springtrap isn't that far off from Nurse?
Some of the new releases are too strong or their kits are too bloated, yes. I still don't like Jason and think there is way too much in his kit and he invalidates several killers and power creeps half the roster, and like I said I agree that I think Judgment is too strong. However, again, I never said I'm arguing that Judgment should not be nerfed. All I said was whether Judgment needs a nerf or not, Nurse does as well.
I also disagree with the notion that Nurse is immensely harder to play than Judgment. While I have not played a bunch of the newly buffed Judgment, I was able to pick up Nurse within a couple hours of match time and I think I'm a pretty decent Nurse. She is not hard. The new Judgment is not hard to medium range shots on, especially with aura reading, but even with the .8s now making it infinitely easier to simply react to a survivor's movements in chase, I still think there is probably a bit more skill involved with Judgment at close range, at the very least out of Zealous
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@T1MEXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117392#Comment_4117392
I do think her second blink being 5 seconds is a little long, maybe as a test start with 4 seconds.
I think considering how vast the gap is between Nurse and 90% of the rest of the roster, if anything increasing her cooldown on her second blink by 2s would be too little. If she was at perhaps Dracula's power level I might agree with you, but this is the number 1 strongest killer in the game for a decade.
Honestly even with the 2s nerf, especially considering that even with Blight becoming 4.4 and losing charges on breaking a pallet he is still the second strongest killer in the game, I think at most this change would put Nurse down to second or third. It's just simple and easy to do as opposed to reworking her kit.
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@T1MEXII said:
I mean if Nurse needs a nerf, maybe just start with reducing her power cooldown by .5 or 1 second. Might not sound like too much but it would make a big difference.
I made a separate post after this one on a few different ways to change the Nurse, and the simplest one was to simply increase her recharge rate of her second blink from 3s to 5s to limit how much she is able to go for the easy adjustment blinks that guarantee a hit even when the first blink is a bit sloppy. If you make it a blanket cooldown time, Nurse already doesn't have that fast of long map traversal, most of her distance comes from her first blink, so I think having her first blink be on a bigger cooldown might actually make her traverse the map even slower than a 4.6 killer.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117382#Comment_4117382
Nurse has already been nerfed COUNTLESS times. Don't act as if she's never been touched she's been changed CONSTANTLY.
It's WORSE that a brand new killer is considered S tier than one that's been out from released and balanced accordingly. SOMEONE has to be at the top, and I would rather that be nurse than most other killers in this game. Everytime there's a killer who's better than nurse it's a HUGE indicator that something extremely unhealthy is going on in the game. When spirit was better than nurse, it's because she was disgustingly broken and unfair and ruined the game. When PTB Twins was better than nurse, everyone could see how disgustingly OP and unhealthy that was and it was INSTANTLY reverted. Now the exact same is happening with judgement only far worse.
Chill man, I never said Nurse hasn't been nerfed. It's just a fact that her nerfs have never put her lower than number 1 and despite any nerfs, most of which have just been addon nerfs, she is too powerful. Judgment is an extremely controversial killer right now because she has a learning curve, some people are experiencing terrible Judgment players just going for adept and some are experiencing the people who have no-lifed her for weeks. It doesn't help that the MMR update just came out and makes it difficult to tell for some people if it's that Judgment is OP or if their teammates are just trash because of the MMR reset.
I agree with you that I think she is too powerful, that she could even be stronger than Nurse. Posts have been made on this. But does that mean we can never talk about Nurse? Nurse being number 1 never stopped people from talking about how Blight should be nerfed.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117380#Comment_4117380
Because I don't see this person or any other forum users calling for judgement nerfs. Clearly they think nurse is more deserving of nerfs than judgment.
Nurse is a killer everyone has been wanting nerfed for years, essentially since her creation, so of course we want Nurse nerfed. She had been number 1 for far too long and needs an actual impactful change.
Judgment is brand new, and as I said before, probably because of how much better a good Judgment is versus a bad or mediocre one, the community hasn't been able to reach a solid consensus and some people still think she's like B tier.
Despite that, if you haven't seen people calling for Judgment nerfs you probably just missed them because there are plenty. This post is just bigger than most of them because it's something people agree on more.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/472214/how-would-you-balance-nurse
So we want to nerf nurse but not judgement? How insane has this forum become.
Uh who said don't nerf Judgment? This forum post has only mentioned that Nurse should be nerfed, which I think people have been wanting for years, not that Judgment shouldn't be nerfed. The community still seems to be lacking in consensus on where Judgment belongs on a tier list, but personally I think once a little bit more time is given for more people to master her it's going to be painfully obvious she is S tier.
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@NeverSolus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117243#Comment_4117243
That's fair. But nothing is stopping those newer players from running both WoO and FMA either if they want the same information. Let's be realistic, newer players aren't thirsting for that Dead Hard slot, etc.
WoO and FMA are on completely different survivors, one of which is new and full price (and likely will be for years). It's unrealistic to expect new players to grind to get not only Kate but also Tae-Young for these two perks. Not only that, while FMA does have the nice pallet drop effect, the aura reading goes on cooldown and so it doesn't quite fill the spot one perk used to hold.
I'm fine with FMA getting changed to pallets, I think that makes more sense and differentiates it a bit more from WoO. However, especially if that is already being changed, why is WoO being changed, especially to only show window vaults? Talk about a useless perk.
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@SpyUA said:
It's Windows of opportunity, not pallets of opportunity
Still it needs to be separate from five moves ahead.
If you want them to feel more separate that bad, keep the FMA change where it only shows pallets and leave Windows alone. FMA is more for experience players in the first place, and if they can see the positions of the pallets they probably have a decent idea of where the windows are as well, although a lot of experienced players probably have a decent idea where both are even without the perk and mostly use the perk for the fast drop animation.
Windows is the new player perk, it wasn't very useful to experienced players. You might call it "braindead go to yellow" or whatever, but if you started out this game maining survivor then you'd know it takes hundreds of hours to get a somewhat decent idea of where windows and pallets can spawn on the 50+ unique maps. That time gets even longer when you don't have the perk to show you where those resources are in all your games and instead you just have to run around like a headless chicken, end all your chases in 20s because you're running in a straight line, and then you never learn where anything is.
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@TheMruczek said:
Nurse is close to being fairly balanced imo, while all of your solutions have serious issues. 1st one makes her too vulnerable to holding W, 2nd one makes her very uninteresting to play and verse, 3rd gives her a completely new identity, 4th one I mean look at Xeno's pick rate and kill rate and tell me it's a good solution.
Imo Nurse needs:
A reduction in range for her second blink from 12m to 10m to restrict her from "safe blinking" and to force her to actually engage in more 50/50s +Blinding status effect whenever she charges her blinks. I don't think i need to explain why
If this doesn't tone her down enough, set blink recovery time at 3.5s per token and make stunning her result in her losing all of her tokens.
Making her second blink a bit shorter range would not do anything in the situations where Nurse is at her most powerful. Her ability to get within 5m of you with one blink and do an instant blink to cover another 3m and confirm the hit is nuts and unavoidable. Also, as I said in the original post, Blinding effect when she's charging her blinks would not affect her maximum potential because a good Nurse player does not rely on aura reading.
If anything, setting her blink recovery time to 3.5s flat would make her more vulnerable to W keying because she gets the majority of her distance from her first blink, not her second. When trying to cross long distances or catch up with a far away survivor, Nurses only use their first blink because it is faster and more efficient that way. Stunning losing her tokens would be a good change though.
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@DeadByBrandi said:
So excited for the Knock Out buff ahhh!
Honestly very concerned about Knock Out, on normal killers it might be fine, but on a killer like Wesker, Legion, Ghoul or to a lesser extent Lich that can vault pallets or lift them up it might be a little too strong in that the killer doesn't have to take the intended distance around the pallet.
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@esarraf said:
I think all of these could work. I also think it's great that you pointed out that blindness does nothing really to counter the fact she has two blinks and can just reposition if she misses. I don't think the first option would do enough really besides making it slightly longer for her to win.
I think that in and of itself would be something. If Nurse takes even a bit longer to get almost every down, it gives a decent bit more time for survivors to heal and do gens. I think she would still be A+ rank, maybe still low S rank, but it's the simplest way to change her that the devs could do pretty easily and quickly.
Saying that, I think the other changes might be more effective at putting her in an actually balanced position though, even if they take more dev time.
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I was hoping we would, but we're getting the perk update and the chat wheel in one patch, and we're getting 58 perk changes instead of 45? Whether the changes end up being good or not, for a mid chapter I'm pretty excited for this patch.
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Honestly all trials should just have 5 chests, that on its own would be enough to make Human Greed at least decent. Survivors are already notified they are being aura read by the way.
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@lovlor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116951#Comment_4116951
I think the second demand is too hard for their coders.
But the first demand I believe is very easy to do so to prioritize something but you know what? Auto spending got introduced like 7-8 years after this game launched and it was supposed to be a basic QOL. So we might well be waiting another few years for these upgrades
It also took like 8 years or something to be able to search for our own perks…doing a pretty good job so far
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@n000b51 said:
"The difference between a Billy with Engravings and Boots and a Billy without is night and day. There is hardly ever a time that I see a Billy without them"
It's hard like almost all old killers without add-on BUT it is not impossible… You just have to… LEARN it first, it doesn't require too much tho'.
Nowadays people, you know… they don't have time to waste for that: they want everything, all immediately without effort…Idk how much you play Billy, but I play him with the Apex Muffler instead of Engravings fairly often and it makes an absolutely massive difference. More so than that though, the occasional time that I do not run Engravings and Dad's/Spiked Boots, it feels terrible going for a long sprint. On a lot of maps, you might as well not be able to turn after the initial curve window at all.
No it's not impossible to use without Boots or Engravings, trust me I've played a good bit of Billy since before his rework when he was C tier. The goal isn't to make him easy, it's to make his gameplay feel smoother on average and open the door to other addons. If practically every Billy player is running Engravings + Dad's/Spiked Boots, I think that's a sign to the devs that the killer feels significantly better to play with them. This is similar to how almost every Ghost Face runs Drop-Leg Knife Sheath and wants it base kit, or the brown teleport cooldown reduction addon that become almost entirely base kit on Unknown.
At the same time I am under no illusion that Billy is a weak killer, and that's why I slightly nerfed his maximum potential with the addons. It would be a nice QoL improvement to Billy that would raise his strength with his weaker addons while nerfing his strength with his strongest ones.
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@Elan said:
I like your ideas. But they are too safe. You can make those add ons basekit in full value and make the add ons more unique towards the power.
As of now Hillbilly is easily in the top 5 most powerful killers, usually placing around 3rd or 4th (although depending on your opinion apparently Judgment might move him down a place). A killer that strong should not be made any stronger. Although Billy has a couple maps he struggles a lot with, I think the partial base kit boots would help with that so that those maps aren't as terrible without the addons.
Otherwise, I made these addons partial base kit and made the total between base kit and the addons slightly less than before because if anything Billy needs nerfs. If you simply make his most powerful addons fully base kit it will make an extremely strong killer even stronger. These changes were more so aimed towards slightly nerfing his maximum potential while improving his average quality of life and opening up addon slots for other addons.
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Midwich and RPD are very killer sided overall. If you look them up on Nightlight right now, Midwich and RPD East Wing are in the top 5 deadliest maps, last month Midwich was number 1. If you're struggling on Midwich, which has been one of the most killer sided maps in the game for years, you should be thankful that it's been bugged for months and in a lot of games one or two rooms where a pallet should spawn just don't have one.
As someone who plays a lot of Ghostface, who is literally the m1 killer as he literally has no chase power (unless you count crouching) I understand that having no proper anti-loop power can make playing around pallets difficult. Honestly I find it less frustrating on RPD, as the map is very set in stone so after a while you pretty much know where every pallet spawns and can herd the survivor away from the better ones, or you learn how to outplay the common ones. Midwich has very few safe pallets, most of them are just okay and by the end of the game the survivors often are struggling to find any pallets left.
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Been asking for this for ages, so have many others. Also wish there was a way to have the auto bloodweb select the most bp efficient paths for when you want to prestige a character for their perks but don't plan on running them, or if you just want to prestige the hell out of them.
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@Elan said:
I'd give him full basekit add ons and rework the add ons.
+ 10 % movespeed while cloacked
+ 50 % damage speed while cloacked
+ 20 % uncloack speed
+ 30 % cloak speed
I feel like the community generally thinks Wraith is a pretty balanced killer, wouldn't this be way too strong? Especially something like 20% uncloak speed, that's almost double of "Swift Hunt" - Blood.
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I had the same experience, even running Scout every game and unlocking 10+ chests per game with keys It still took me probably 3 hours straight to get all 10. It's very obviously how they are trying to force survivors to actually play 2v8 because it's not fun for them
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@Lavoonus said:
I think the big two things for me would be standardizing escaping traps and making Iri Stone basekit.
The first one feels obvious for both sides, freeing yourself from a beartrap being based on random chance is just super outdated. Something like a flat 10 seconds at base when doing it by yourself would be fine, and being freed by a teammate can stay as fast as it is currently.
And Iri Stone or some other form of automatic trap rearm mechanic just feels necessary at this point. I wasn't a huge fan of it on Merchant because it made disarming her drones feel like a waste of time, but as long as Trapper has to physically retrieve his traps permanent disarming just cannot exist. It simply destroys his pressure way too effectively. So something as simple as disarming only deactivating traps for 45 seconds would do a lot for him I feel.
I think you are definitely right about making escaping traps standardized. I'm not sure exactly how long the sweet spot would be, but considering one attempt is 1.8s and survivors usually escape within 4 attempts and are guaranteed within 6 (maximum of 10.8s) I think standardizing it at somewhere like 8-10s would be good.
I've played with the idea of base kit Iri Stone, but I think the idea of just making it reset every 45s would be too powerful. Keep in mind that Iri Stone randomly resets one trap every 30s, not the same trap 30s after it is disarmed. So a trap could be disarmed and rearmed in 30s or in potentially several minutes, especially at the start of the game. I think having a trap reset after 60s may be good, with a visual and audio indicator in the last 5s of the trap opening back up. This would keep his traps active a good amount of the time without him having to constantly run across the map to rearm them, while also avoiding the issue of survivors just getting super unlucky over and over with the trap arming right beneath them with no way of knowing.
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I haven't experienced it to that extent but it does seem like people don't like Scratched Mirror anymore. Maybe because now you can just make yourself 4.4? Not really sure, I used to play Scratched Mirror and bring people to Midwich, Lerry's or Hawkins and just mess with them all game, then let them all go and moonwalk at the exit gate for fun, got some great reactions. Nowadays people seem to not enjoy it as much, and I will say a lot of Scratched Mirror Myers that I've run into have hard tunneled as well, which is like, if you feel the need to do that on Scratched Mirror why are you using the addon lol
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I think AFK crows should be disabled in a 1v2 when one survivor is on the ground. The amount of times AFK crows has almost screwed me over because the killer has been slugging my teammate for the 4k for 3 minutes straight is infuriating.
I think AFK crows being more prevalent in egc would be nice for killers when the survivor has just given up on getting the gate, however I think it also has a chance of screwing over the survivor if they are timing their exit attempt. Many times when I'm stuck in a 1v1 in egc, I find a hiding spot near the gate and listen to the killer's terror radius / look for when they look at the gate and try to estimate the best timing to get on the gate. I know a lot of other survivors do this as well and it could screw them over.
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116640#Comment_4116640
It's pretty well established that DbD cannot be balanced around comp where you have players who are in the top 0.01% of the skill bracket and there are Nurse's who can blink with pixel-perfect accuracy. How many Nurses do you encounter that are that good in public matches?
Tier lists are generally based on potential. In the right hands the Nurse has the potential to be S-tier. But in most players' hands who miss a few blinks they quickly find gens getting done and gates getting opened and that's why she has a kill rate <50%. That's why BHVR keeps leaving her where she is despite continuous whining from the community and her continued placement at the top of tier lists. Tier lists are opinions, unlike the stats.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116646#Comment_4116646
Nice try. You just hate Nurse and appear unable to apply logic in a discussion about her.
While tier lists are subjective, I think if the community has reached an almost clear consensus on who the best killer in the game is for 10 years straight it means way more than any statistics. The devs make nerfs and buffs based on statistics all the time, it's why the meme "nerf pig" is a thing, as even though Pig is not that incredibly strong, her headtraps are confusing for new players and often get them killed, inflating her kill rate. Kill rates are often tied to how intuitive or confusing a killer's counterplay is and how confusing the killer is to play, not just how powerful they are.
Also, BHVR hasn't just left her where she is. They may be slow with changes, but Nurse has only received nerfs since her release. They have even acknowledged before that she is the best killer in the game, and even as recent as the 9.2.0 or 9.3.0 PTBs Nurse was one of the killers they specifically picked out to not get as many benefits. Despite the kill rates BHVR seems well aware of how powerful she is, but properly balancing her while also not making her feel super clunky to play would probably need some big change they clearly don't have time for considering we've been waiting on Skull Merchant's rework for years.
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@NeverSolus said:
I wouldn't.
At high end (top 5% of players) she unbalanced strong. But in the hands of the other 95% she's a joke. She's balanced by the necessity of these numbers. The game isn't balanced by how the top 5% of survivors use perks or strategies, as that would get survivors nerfed into the dirt due to coordinated SWF's.
You just don't balance games based off of the top 5%. It's senseless, and leads to bad game balance. Much as people like to complain about the nurse, it's not common to see a cracked nurse in the queues. You're far more likely to hit a totem Jason, or a four-slow-down Kaneki. I'd focus game design balancing on those more common elements. Addressing Totem Jason being too strong is going to result in more quality of life improvements than aiming for high skill spectrum Nurses.
That or, I mean, go ahead and nerf Nurse, no skin off my nose to be clear. Just seems like a silly and awkward place to focus balancing when she's not that recurrent of an issue. Maybe you just encounter cracked Nurses more than I do.I genuinely do not think it's only the top 5% of players. I think her kill rate is so low not just because she is difficult to get the hang of in the first couple hours, but because she is completely free to new players. A player that is a decent killer all around can become pretty good with Nurse in a few hours, but a lot of people don't bother doing that.
My lifetime kill rate is being massively dragged down by a bunch of games (in my first couple hours of playing her at that lmao) where I ran Bam and Superior Anatomy for memes, and I've given a ton of hatch escapes to survivors I feel sorry for, and yet it's still at 70%. I have only 6 hours on her throughout 5 years of playing and I'm sure if I wanted to I could easily hit 80% kill rate if I stopped giving hatch and ran normal builds, possibly more.
A decent Nurse is already an A+ killer imo. A good Nurse is S tier, and a master Nurse is uncounterable. Most of the Nurses I encounter are one of the first two. If it's the first then I have some hope. If it's the second the game is probably over from the start. The few times I've felt like I've gone up against an extremely good Nurse the game was over within 5 minutes.
I do agree there are more prevalent issues though, this thread isn't about "Nurse being nerfed is the number 1 priority," after all she's been number 1 for 10 years. However I would like to see her changed at some point.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116669#Comment_4116669
Esa just outright entered the thread straw maning and insulting people.In this thread, where?
The first post is a pretty straightforward forum style question - what if this rule applied to the other side? There's a couple of responses that I imagine could be made to that, but its a pretty logical question to bring up. @Arcturus brings up the idea its a valid point.
The second post is responding after being called a troll and reiterates the previous point
The third post Esaraf is far more confrontational (though this is in response to twice being called a troll), but he lists a number of reasons for why Nurse is a problem (3), which is in response to being told: "They can't actually come up with a good argument as to why the Nurse is actually a mad dog killer who is problematic in DbD."
In this thread, none of that seems to be straw manning and the insults come after they were already started.
Honestly as a whole I just think that particular discussion needs to simmer down. These kinds of issues can be discussed respectfully without insulting each other, and I understand that it seems like there's some bad blood between @ForTheEntity and @esarraf from another thread, but when they have had a heated argument in the past they should not carry it over to other threads.
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Honestly it feels more like a change than a buff to me, but then again I'm not a Chucky player. Is the idea to not break pallets and make chains of pallets that you can Scamper under to travel across the map?
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On survivor I don't really use meta perks on my own unless I get extremely frustrated from repeated high tier killers tunneling from 5 gens with full meta loadouts. Sometimes I just break from that and I run meta for a couple games in frustration before I immediately get bored of it. I also run some meta with my friends who are practically babies, running things like StB, WGLF and Background Player to try and keep them from getting tunneled out. Usually when I'm on my own though I like to do more gimmicky builds, and I don't usually have exhaustion perks in my builds because I feel like I improve more without them. As of the last couple of days I actually started running zero perks and zero items on "naked Tae-Young" for memes and to improve.
On killer I'm a bit less experienced so a lot of my loadouts have at least one slowdown. Personally not a fan of triple or quad slowdown though, it's absolutely boring, however I often like having some kind of slowdown as it usually gives me the leniency to spread hooks more. I experiment with more gimmicky builds or no slowdown builds much more on the killers I am more comfortable with or that are generally just stronger.
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116594#Comment_4116594
@esarraf is always a troll when it comes to talking about Nurse. They can't actually come up with a good argument as to why the Nurse is actually a mad dog killer who is problematic in DbD. So they come up with some ridiculous analogy in a one ore two liner, without actually adding to the discussion. I have tried to have this discussion with them in another thread and this was their modus operandi with every single post.
I still think the Nurse is balanced. I have more fun playing against Nurse than as Nurse.
Playing Nurse is not an automatic win. If she was, more people would be playing her and she's have a better kill rate. If she doesn't land her blinks and get those hits, the fatigue is really punishing. She has the worst map traversal in the game thanks to her fatigue and her movement speed. And Entity help her if she gets a survivor as good as me on Lery's.
The Nurse has a high skill floor but once a player gets decent with Nurse she doesn't become an unstoppable powerhouse as people like @esarraf would have us believe.
And another thing with Nurse is it is incredibly easy to get rusty with her. Yeah, if you're a Nurse main and play her nearly everyday you'll do quite well. But if you spread your playtime across multiple killers and/or don't play Nurse for a week, it's quite easy to eat dirt for a couple matches until you get your mojo back.
It doesn't surprise me that others in this thread are calling for her movement speed to increase to balance her, which I think would be a massive buff no matter how much more punishing her fatigue would be.
Have you ever watched comp DBD? Obviously pubs aren't going to play out the same way as a comp match, but I think the way that comp matches are played against Nurse is a testament to how deadly she is to even the most skilled survivors.
The strategy they use against Nurse is to have designated "death spots" that they would run to and die at to take the Nurse away from gens being done on the opposite side of the map. Often times they don't even bother trying to run her and just go there immediately, instead of "last for 30 more seconds" or something it's literally just "well if you're dead already then at least do it in a good spot." Most chases, even against these extremely skilled players, still are very quick. The strategy works a bit better on bigger maps, but in general the survivors are completely expected to lose.
There is a reason why, unless you have seen a tier list different from all the ones I've seen, that every tier list without exception has had Nurse as number 1 since 2016. A decent Nurse is already A tier, a master Nurse is uncounterable. This is why in my original post I mentioned that I do not think Blindness when she is Blinking would be enough, as good Nurses don't even need aura in the first place and often don't run it.
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I'm hoping we actually get the chat wheel along with it. I would love to at least hear what perks they are changing, let alone what is actually being changed about them
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@AliceNull said:
The thing you'd need to do to fix Nurse without at least vaguely changing her identity or adding entirely new mechanics is something that Nurse players would outright riot over. Aura gets talked about a lot, but a lot of better nurse players really do not rely heavily on aura reading, and its never really been integral to why she's the best killer in the game. Blindness would still leave her as top 1 of 1 out of the entire roster.
The problem is the 'booster blink'. The lack of any kind of significant delay between blink 1 completing and having blink 2 available means that after a certain level of skill, a successful blink attack becomes less an issue of reads or winning the mindgames that make going against low/mid level nurses genuinely fun, its a matter of 'did I wait for my second charge or not'. She blinks forward into a close enough threat range, and immediately micro-blinks after to secure the hit if necessary. No survivor reaction opportunities beyond something like Dead Hard, no ambiguity, just being good enough at tracking, blink mechanics and map/terrain familiarity to secure the hit essentially every time. If you want Nurse out of S tier without a rework, you need to remove these hit confirms.Are you suggesting remove her second blink?
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@Mentally_Mechanical said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116577#Comment_4116577
I think the main issues with the power are that a lot of survivors don't care about being injured—and in some cases are even buffed by it—so forcing everyone to remain injured doesn't do much unless you're a chase demon or have perks like Thana, and the chain hit pretty much doesn't exist when even a single survivor is out of commission.
At a surface level Legion's power is solid, being quick and easy injuries to keep the survivors on the backfoot, the problem lies more in the nuance.
Yeah I mean when all the survivors just stay injured the killer is essentially just m1, although there is some skill expression with using power to cut off survivors from resources. Legion being weak is something that also needs to be changed by the developers by perhaps giving him something while he is out of power or chasing someone in the mending state, but his weakness of (usually) having to down survivors as a normal m1 killer is not something that should be solved by unhealthy addons that promote an unhealthy playstyle.
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@Brokenbones said:
pre-drop and spam vaults to force them to either hit you and leave or end power and chase normally
pre-dropping also counters spirit fury enduring, to the point some legion's get desperate and start swinging at every pallet just to get stunned which you can predict and greed the pallet to counter
not 100% reliable but it's something you can do to make their job harder
Unfortunately in solo queue, you can go a long time without realizing the killer has these particular addons, which multiplies the issue in size the more people in the match are solo. The main problem though is that I also see some of Iri Button Legions also running Dissolution. Honestly hate the perk design of both Spirit Fury and Dissolution, promotes such a boring brainless playstyle.
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@ForTheEntity said:
Maybe I'm just downvote-farming but I am going to say it:
The Nurse is balanced.
Over the last 3 years every time I've looked at her kill rate on Night Light and whenever I've seen an official kill rate for her, it's been below average.
I love playing against Nurses because I know how to run them and usually they're not that good.
The only change I'd like to see is if she tries to blink through a pallet that is dropping it would intercept her, stun her and put her into fatigue. That way she wouldn't be able to completely ignore pallets the way she does now but she could still outplay them by waiting for the pallet drop animation to finish, but survivors could dumb-tech or do something since she couldn't hit them while the survivor is stuck in the pallet pulldown animation. I just think it would be more fun than what we have now.
@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116563#Comment_4116563
Oh go away troll. You have never even played Nurse.
Whether or not @esarraf has played Nurse or not that is a pretty accurate description of Nurse. I have about 6 hours on her according to my stats page and it's incredibly easy to win on her. Half my hours on her I was trolling with half my build being Bamboozle and Superior Anatomy yet I was still able to win most my games.
The reason Nurse's kill rates are so low is because she is completely free and unlocked to all players. Brand new players that have no idea how to play the game will try to play her and have no clue what they're doing. With Trapper or Wraith they can at least just walk forward and swing, but Nurse is slower than survivors so she quite literally is required to Blink. Nurse is not a killer you can pick up in a single game and already be pretty good at, but it only takes a couple hours of playing her to get decent with her power, and it's strong enough that decent is all you really need. A lot of players probably never go past the first few matches of playing her. Nightlight and the official kill rates take into account the babies too, and if they're all getting 0-1 kills that drags it down quite a bit.
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@Mentally_Mechanical said:
What do you mean they're not good perks? Teamwide aura reads, free haste and healing for generators, HALVED regression speed and a gen speed boost in one boon. What more could you want for them to be considered good?
While I don't think they're complete trash, they're definitely not good.
Salvation's cry gives decent info to you and your team for a few seconds, but honestly I'd rather have Quick Gambit which shows me the auras of my teammates the entirety of the time it's up while also giving them a repair speed boost, or Troubleshooter that shows me the highest progress generator while also showing me the killer's aura every time I drop a pallet.
Fruits of Your Labor is honestly pretty bad. Because it only applies to gens you finish and also scales so that it is extremely weak for the first few gens, you really only get any decent value out of it if you are the one to finish one of the last couple gens, which often times, you are not. In probably 6 or so games running this perk with an entire build centered around trying to get value out of it, I only ever got any value out of the healing portion once, and it didn't even heal me half way. In the end, most of the time you actually get this perk to activate, it will just give you haste, and even post nerf you can get much more consistent, flexible, repeatable results with SB. Just run Adrenaline, although not quite the same it's just better.
And although you seem to think that Steadfast is incredibly powerful, it's really not. Most boons will only hit one gen, if your lucky every once in a while it will hit two. Assuming it's one gen (because it usually is), it takes 14s to set up the boon, and then if it stays up the entire time and you are on it the entire time, you save 9s on the gen. Even if it affects 2 gens, again, under perfect conditions that's a net gain of 4 whole seconds. So at that point it's a time waster. But then what about with 2 people? Well then it actually only saves 5.5s, or 11s on two gens, so you're losing time. And if you're on a gen with someone else, just run Prove and then you don't need to waste time on a totem. As for halving the regression speed, this is useless in 99% of situations. The perk only affects gen regression over time, not things like Pain Res or Pop, which means the boon must be active while it is regressing. But if the killer came over and kicked the generator, then they're probably going to find the boon. And snuff it. And poof the perk is gone. Even if it stayed up, passive gen regression is so slow that the perk would only get good value if they kicked the gen at its peak with Lay Waste and the survivors just let it sit for a while instead of stopping the regression. But hey, if the killer does do that specific thing, and maybe your boon is in a difficult to reach spot, and all your teammates just leave the gen sitting for a while, then the perk would actually be good. Man this perk actually gets worse the more I think about it.
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@guest2w said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116549#Comment_4116549
I feel like that would be damaging for who she is as a killer. doesn't follow the rules, "ignores" pallets and windows.
I mean, her completely ignoring all pallets and windows at all times is the part that makes her too strong. Even if her power was not active 100% of the time, her core identity of her blinks and being able to use them to ignore walls and resources will still be there.
I'm not necessarily saying that making her earn her power like Oni is the right way to go, but either that or adding some kind of counterplay like Xeno sound like the most viable options. If she isn't meaningfully changed then she won't actually be placed in a more balanced position.