Arcturus
Arcturus
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@AliceNull said:
The thing you'd need to do to fix Nurse without at least vaguely changing her identity or adding entirely new mechanics is something that Nurse players would outright riot over. Aura gets talked about a lot, but a lot of better nurse players really do not rely heavily on aura reading, and its never really been integral to why she's the best killer in the game. Blindness would still leave her as top 1 of 1 out of the entire roster.
The problem is the 'booster blink'. The lack of any kind of significant delay between blink 1 completing and having blink 2 available means that after a certain level of skill, a successful blink attack becomes less an issue of reads or winning the mindgames that make going against low/mid level nurses genuinely fun, its a matter of 'did I wait for my second charge or not'. She blinks forward into a close enough threat range, and immediately micro-blinks after to secure the hit if necessary. No survivor reaction opportunities beyond something like Dead Hard, no ambiguity, just being good enough at tracking, blink mechanics and map/terrain familiarity to secure the hit essentially every time. If you want Nurse out of S tier without a rework, you need to remove these hit confirms.Are you suggesting remove her second blink?
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@Mentally_Mechanical said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116577#Comment_4116577
I think the main issues with the power are that a lot of survivors don't care about being injuredβand in some cases are even buffed by itβso forcing everyone to remain injured doesn't do much unless you're a chase demon or have perks like Thana, and the chain hit pretty much doesn't exist when even a single survivor is out of commission.
At a surface level Legion's power is solid, being quick and easy injuries to keep the survivors on the backfoot, the problem lies more in the nuance.
Yeah I mean when all the survivors just stay injured the killer is essentially just m1, although there is some skill expression with using power to cut off survivors from resources. Legion being weak is something that also needs to be changed by the developers by perhaps giving him something while he is out of power or chasing someone in the mending state, but his weakness of (usually) having to down survivors as a normal m1 killer is not something that should be solved by unhealthy addons that promote an unhealthy playstyle.
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@Brokenbones said:
pre-drop and spam vaults to force them to either hit you and leave or end power and chase normally
pre-dropping also counters spirit fury enduring, to the point some legion's get desperate and start swinging at every pallet just to get stunned which you can predict and greed the pallet to counter
not 100% reliable but it's something you can do to make their job harder
Unfortunately in solo queue, you can go a long time without realizing the killer has these particular addons, which multiplies the issue in size the more people in the match are solo. The main problem though is that I also see some of Iri Button Legions also running Dissolution. Honestly hate the perk design of both Spirit Fury and Dissolution, promotes such a boring brainless playstyle.
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@ForTheEntity said:
Maybe I'm just downvote-farming but I am going to say it:
The Nurse is balanced.
Over the last 3 years every time I've looked at her kill rate on Night Light and whenever I've seen an official kill rate for her, it's been below average.
I love playing against Nurses because I know how to run them and usually they're not that good.
The only change I'd like to see is if she tries to blink through a pallet that is dropping it would intercept her, stun her and put her into fatigue. That way she wouldn't be able to completely ignore pallets the way she does now but she could still outplay them by waiting for the pallet drop animation to finish, but survivors could dumb-tech or do something since she couldn't hit them while the survivor is stuck in the pallet pulldown animation. I just think it would be more fun than what we have now.
@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116563#Comment_4116563
Oh go away troll. You have never even played Nurse.
Whether or not @esarraf has played Nurse or not that is a pretty accurate description of Nurse. I have about 6 hours on her according to my stats page and it's incredibly easy to win on her. Half my hours on her I was trolling with half my build being Bamboozle and Superior Anatomy yet I was still able to win most my games.
The reason Nurse's kill rates are so low is because she is completely free and unlocked to all players. Brand new players that have no idea how to play the game will try to play her and have no clue what they're doing. With Trapper or Wraith they can at least just walk forward and swing, but Nurse is slower than survivors so she quite literally is required to Blink. Nurse is not a killer you can pick up in a single game and already be pretty good at, but it only takes a couple hours of playing her to get decent with her power, and it's strong enough that decent is all you really need. A lot of players probably never go past the first few matches of playing her. Nightlight and the official kill rates take into account the babies too, and if they're all getting 0-1 kills that drags it down quite a bit.
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@Mentally_Mechanical said:
What do you mean they're not good perks? Teamwide aura reads, free haste and healing for generators, HALVED regression speed and a gen speed boost in one boon. What more could you want for them to be considered good?
While I don't think they're complete trash, they're definitely not good.
Salvation's cry gives decent info to you and your team for a few seconds, but honestly I'd rather have Quick Gambit which shows me the auras of my teammates the entirety of the time it's up while also giving them a repair speed boost, or Troubleshooter that shows me the highest progress generator while also showing me the killer's aura every time I drop a pallet.
Fruits of Your Labor is honestly pretty bad. Because it only applies to gens you finish and also scales so that it is extremely weak for the first few gens, you really only get any decent value out of it if you are the one to finish one of the last couple gens, which often times, you are not. In probably 6 or so games running this perk with an entire build centered around trying to get value out of it, I only ever got any value out of the healing portion once, and it didn't even heal me half way. In the end, most of the time you actually get this perk to activate, it will just give you haste, and even post nerf you can get much more consistent, flexible, repeatable results with SB. Just run Adrenaline, although not quite the same it's just better.
And although you seem to think that Steadfast is incredibly powerful, it's really not. Most boons will only hit one gen, if your lucky every once in a while it will hit two. Assuming it's one gen (because it usually is), it takes 14s to set up the boon, and then if it stays up the entire time and you are on it the entire time, you save 9s on the gen. Even if it affects 2 gens, again, under perfect conditions that's a net gain of 4 whole seconds. So at that point it's a time waster. But then what about with 2 people? Well then it actually only saves 5.5s, or 11s on two gens, so you're losing time. And if you're on a gen with someone else, just run Prove and then you don't need to waste time on a totem. As for halving the regression speed, this is useless in 99% of situations. The perk only affects gen regression over time, not things like Pain Res or Pop, which means the boon must be active while it is regressing. But if the killer came over and kicked the generator, then they're probably going to find the boon. And snuff it. And poof the perk is gone. Even if it stayed up, passive gen regression is so slow that the perk would only get good value if they kicked the gen at its peak with Lay Waste and the survivors just let it sit for a while instead of stopping the regression. But hey, if the killer does do that specific thing, and maybe your boon is in a difficult to reach spot, and all your teammates just leave the gen sitting for a while, then the perk would actually be good. Man this perk actually gets worse the more I think about it.
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@guest2w said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116549#Comment_4116549
I feel like that would be damaging for who she is as a killer. doesn't follow the rules, "ignores" pallets and windows.
I mean, her completely ignoring all pallets and windows at all times is the part that makes her too strong. Even if her power was not active 100% of the time, her core identity of her blinks and being able to use them to ignore walls and resources will still be there.
I'm not necessarily saying that making her earn her power like Oni is the right way to go, but either that or adding some kind of counterplay like Xeno sound like the most viable options. If she isn't meaningfully changed then she won't actually be placed in a more balanced position.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
I mean, removing Auras while she is charging a Blink or Blinking is something that comes up often. And it would certainly help. I also think that they should bring back the Pallet Stun on her, where she went into fatique after a stun. This would actually reward pallet stunning a Nurse, which is hard enough to do. And it would be fair IMO since she can ignore Pallets most of the time anyway, even with that.
However, in the end, she will always be the Killer who does not play DBD. The only way to Nerf her and make her not suck afterwards (you can probably nerf her enough that nobody plays her, but this should not be the goal) would be to rework her Power. To make her Blinks way worse, but let her not rely that heavily on them anymore.
But this would require a lot of effort and especially a lot of courage from the Devs, so it will not happen. We know there would be backlash and we also know that the Dev would then scrap any ideas they might have had to nerf or rework Nurse immediatly, we have seen this often by now.
And well, after all, I am also very sure that the Devs dont want to change Nurse. While it would certainly appreciated if there would be at least a little bit of thought if she is the strongest Killer (everyone doing a Tier List slaps her on S-Tier as the strongest Killer without discussion), Nurse is the perfect excuse for every Pay2Win complaint. Even if we clearly see that new Killers are powercreeping older ones and therefore BHVR is making more money, they can simply say that the strongest Killer in the game is completely free, so there is no P2W going on.
Yeah, I mean the reality is no one buys that excuse, and even if they do it would be the same with if Nurse wasn't #1 because Billy is free and Blight can be earned for free, so the strongest killers in the game would still be free. Honestly think they don't want to touch her because of the excuse you mentioned (still) and because they can't be bothered.
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@Angy_Quentin said:
Blindness while charging a blink/blinking. On top a built-in counter mexhanic for survivors to disrupt her blinks now and then.
What kind of mechanic? Are you thinking of something similar to the old flashlight mechanic that prevented Nurse from blinking?
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I'm all for it, yet another QoL feature DBD needs. I'm hoping that for menu settings like this that if we don't get them now hopefully we'll get them with the overhaul
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As a Springtrap main who has also noticed that while playing against him, if it's not a bug I always assumed it had to do with the animation. When playing springtrap, when you click is not when the axe is actually released. There's a small delay for the animation to play, then it releases, which allows things like looking in a completely different direction from a survivor, clicking and starting the animation, and flicking to the survivor where the axe will throw. I always assumed it was just a bit delayed on the survivor side so it looked a bit more funky.
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@n000b51 said:
When you are playing Apex Legends, you can switch from the menu which server - location & latency, you want to play on.
I haven't played much Apex, but Valorant has much the same thing. I think it's always nice when games, especially very ping dependent ones, give you that option. Right now though, if DBD added that feature the options would be immensly pitiful.
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@Luvernis said:
100% agreed. As someone forced to play on EU from ME, 130+ ping completely ruins the experience. Getting hit way after vaulting is pure pain. Thanks for putting together this map and comparison, hopefully BHVR actually listens.
For sure, I imagine the problem is generally even worse in EU than in the US. I feel very lucky to be on 60ms, but I'm usually sitting anywhere from 70-110ms. In the EU I know there's probably a lot of traffic on the edges that get much worse. Unfortunately BHVR probably won't listen because they're penny pinchers, but this only harms the game long term. What new player wants to start playing a game repeatedly when they know they will never get lower than 80ms? It's going to especially bad if this is the same when the overhaul comes out.
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@TorQueMoD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4107285#Comment_4107285
I have no idea why you're making any connection between the art assets and the code. Are you trying to suggest that new graphics means that it will motivate them to make the code better? I definitely agree we don't want a DBD 2.
Whoa this is old. What I was saying here is that DBD was created in UE3. The models and the code it was built on are practically ancient right now, resulting in very limited skeletal models of the characters and the devs running into limitations of what they can do with the game. For example, the Judgment mori had to be changed from what was voted on because the devs realized they literally could not do it with the models made in game. I think more complex models allows for less limitations
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@CarbonaraCharlie said:
Thank you everyone for your answers so far. I can definitely understand what everyone here is saying. I play solo queue a lot so that probably adds to the whole issue as well.
I want to say it would be good to add something to block hard tunneling but I know it would just cause SWFs to abuse it and killers to have really bad matches with the people who abuse anything like this. I guess I need to study survivor more and run a million anti tunnel perks in the meantime haha
It feels kind of ironic because I used to wonder why so many people ran DS as well lolYeah unfortunately the unhook protections are not at all enough of a deterrent for tunneling. Hard tunneling from the beginning of the game is by far is the easiest way to win the game, so people do it because they enjoy winning. I still think it's cheap and I'm still able to have a high kill rate without tunneling, but maybe that's because I'm okay with not winning literally every game (hence why I play Springtrap and Ghost Face).
BHVR has tried a couple Public Test Builds with attempts at an anti-tunneling system, but due to the amount of things that they changed and how harsh they were (resulting in affecting killers not tunneling at times as well) they were discarded because of backlash from the community.
There definitely needs to be some kind of anti-tunnel system as the difference in the ease you win while tunneling vs not tunneling is astounding, it makes it hard to balance killers as a whole, and because stronger killers can tunnel easier it makes the gap between killers even wider. And of course, hard tunneling isn't really fun for the target of it.
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I think Plague is a big one, honestly there's a few other ones I think of.
The first one I think of is Bubba. Even if you have a ton of pallets, if you don't have multiple Scouts he'd probably shred through all the pallets on the map until at the end of the game you're left with almost nothing, but more than that he'd probably be able to find clusters of survivors fairly frequently and potentially get multiple instadowns in one sweep.
I think Trickster is similar to that last point for Bubba. Because of Main Event, Trickster could be even worse, as on more open maps the Main Event could last ages from all the blades hit and you could mow down several survivors at once.
There's also Judgment, who would benefit off of all the aura reading so much it would be insane. She would probably also get multihits accidentally all the time, and considering the quality of survivors in 2v8 I don't think many would be aware enough to dodge consistently.
There's also Pig, specifically with her head traps. If it weren't for the reverse beartraps she'd be fine, but she'd be half a killer at that point. If the head traps were added, it would probably be super common to get head pops from the amount of times two killers can interrupt the Jigsaw boxes. In addition, keeping that many survivors busy at once would be insanely powerful in 2v8.
Pinhead would be fine if not for his box. Imagining a global chain hunt happening in 2v8 is terrifying.
There are some others that would be bad, but I think these are probably the worst along with Plague.
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@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116034#Comment_4116034
What's the mistake with nurse?, she had 5+ blinks at one point and only gets nerfed (her best add-on got recently nerfed thankfully).
Nurse was a mistake as a whole. She had her place when the game launched because she was the bandaid fix for the broken infinites survivors had, as she could just ignore them altogether. However, she has been S tier since her launch and has never been less than 1st place. Even now, although she is not as incredibly broken as before, she is still much too powerful.
Just because a killer has only received nerfs does not mean they are no longer too strong, just like how just because Trapper or Ghost Face have received buff after buff does not mean they are no longer too weak.
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Self Care being like that would make it absolutely broken. That would make it faster than a medkit (unless you have skill check addons) while also having unlimited uses. The 60s cooldown means nothing, as there would be few times where you would get injured so soon after healing. I don't think the devs will ever change Self Care as it already is incredibly popular in Asia.
As for Circle of Healing, the perk might not be meta or anything but it's okay. Not every perk has to be insanely strong, and when CoH first came out it did allow self heals and it was busted.
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I agree that chests should definitely be increased, I think 5 would be plenty honestly. It could be one or two more, although I think 10 would just be too many.
Having more chests on the map would make builds and perks centered around chests way more viable and allow you to run them without any shiny coins or even perks like Plunderer's or Appraisal. As of now these are pretty much a necessity to make chest perks worth it, but if there were more chests on the map you could run chest-centered builds or perks without some way to know exactly where all the chests are. Human Greed would finally be decent without Hoarder, and would probably be pretty good with Hoarder.
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@dangersmymidd1ename said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/472173/chests
Where did you get this information?
It was in the 2v8 patch notes
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@MeepLord1576 said:
I definitely think tutorials would be nice as well, having to look up how every killer power works was quite annoying for me. The new stuff they added w/ Chorus of Sin was nice, but a playable guide for each killer would be great. But personally, I think that balance is a key issue. Freddy especially has a very unique and fun power, but he never gets used because he's so weak. Same with Singularity, Dredge, Houndmaster, and several others.
I definitely agree that killer balance is a major issue and keeps more players from being able to properly enjoy weaker killers. However, I'm a bit confused by the examples you gave to be honest. Dredge for sure is a weak killer, he is incredibly map dependent and his chase power is incredibly situational and was one of the powers that was negatively impacted by pallet density. On the other hand, while Freddy may have been one of the worst killers in the game for a long time, after his rework he has become a decently strong killer, I've seen many people put him around low A. I often see Houndmaster even a little higher than that, because despite how buggy she is she is quite powerful. Singularity often sits up there with her. It's a bit more difficult to play, but the killer is incredibly powerful and the counterplay can be very difficult for less coordinated survivors.
Usually when I see people talk about weak killers I see Trapper, Skull Merchant (still waiting on the rework), Ghost Face, Dredge, maybe Bubba, etc. Can I ask what makes you think those killers in particular are weak? Because from my perspective, Singularity and Freddy are probably not incredibly popular because they are a bit more confusing and unintuitive to play, and Houndmaster's bugs can get very annoying.
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@jesterkind said:
I agree, I've thought this for a while.
It's been a questionable detail for a while, but with the inclusion of perks like Clean Break or Conviction having stronger effects for the more lenient activation condition, I think it's safe to say Second Wind is definitely outdated. Modernising it would be a very welcome change.
Also Clean Break and Conviction are much easier to understand. I imagine the lack of clarity in Second Wind's description has screwed a lot of people over who tried to combo it with Autodidact or a medkit with skill check addons. I actually got screwed over once trying to use it with Deli, understanding the "while not broken" part as if after my 60s of broken with Deli ends, the 20s of broken for Second Wind will begin. Unfortunately they just don't work together at all.
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@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/472040/what-are-your-most-hated-perks
Spirit Fury and Enduring are the lose-lose. Its so hard to get value out of Spirit Fury alone (except on maybe Myers), you HAVE to add Enduring if you want to be rewarded for using it. I would rather have the perk do something else entirely over it being so co-dependant on Enduring.
My least favourite killer perks to deal with is Weave Attunement. Franklin's Demise or not, survivors shouldn't be punished for deciding to mess around with items or chests.
Most hated survivor perk? Easily Boil Over. Survivors just run to the top of a main building and wait to go down there instead risking a chase and the killer is forced to leave them there.I mean yeah that's what I mean by Spirit Fury, Enduring is always ran with it but I have no beef with Enduring, just Spirit Fury as it's the core of the issue. Although I will say I think you can get away with playing Myers Spirit Fury without Enduring since in T3 he gets I think 30% fast stuns.
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@SimulacraFrostburn said:
Unhooked survivors have base kit 30s of elusive and haste, endurance would remain at 10s. All status effects go away when the survivor becomes healthy, and all status effects become a flat 10s when exit gates are powered. Babysitter would need to be adjusted or reworked.
The way i see it, elusive being the primary anti-tunnel mechanism just means that the game would revolve around maintaining eyes on the hooked survivor whenever the get pulled. Really, that just replaces one problem with another (if we even are to consider tunnelling as a problem, which I am skeptical of)
Hard tunnelling someone in 3 hooks isn't even the meta. That only happens when the the tunnel out gets two tapped every chase or die on active gens repeatedly. If the survivors play properly you have to go for a pressure reset otherwise you'll lose a playable gen split and/or go into 3v1 with high enough gen progress to where the game is guaranteed outs unless the survivors troll.
(Remember, that the win condition of killer is to have a survivor dead with 3 gens remaining and a playable three gen OR have a survivor dead with 2 gens remaining + no gen progress.)
A survivor dying so quickly that the killer does not need to pressure reset is a result of playing poorly. I do not see someone being punished for playing poorly as a game design issue.
You wouldn't argue that if survivors pop three gens for the first chase the killer should get slowdown. The killer played terribly and got punished for playing terribly. That's how well designed games work.
All of the tools that you need to counter tunnelling exist in the game entirely basekit. The problem is twofold.
A: The game's design encourages you to solve your problems not by playing better, but instead by putting on perks.
B: Solo players cannot coordinate even the most basic strategy.
Possible DS rework: DS is increased to a 5s stun, but completely disables when the killer reaches 4 total hook stages. This more effectively counters hard tunneling while being much less likely to affect killers that spread hooks.
Frankly DS is still top 3 perks if it stuns for three seconds. I don't think buffing individual perks is the best way to address broad system issues if that is your goal. This also punishes the killer more, which you directly said you did not want to do.
For the first second after an unhooked survivor's animation is done, they have immunity to attacks (similar to Mettle of Man). This is a simple way to counter killer powers that encourage the killer to get a double hit on both the unhooker and the unhooked survivors, which then in turn encourages them to tunnel the survivor they now know has zero endurance (or dead hard).
This feels like a band-aid fix to me. For the record, I am an ardent hater of the resolve mechanic, but I think 70 second hook stages and basekit BT were very good changes. All this does it that it means you wait like half a second before m1'ing the tunnel out, or just force the trade on the unhooker. Instead of a universal change, just make certain killer powers (like dracula hellfire,) slightly worse in unhook situations.
The point of endurance is to give the tunnel out time to reach a resource. Getting hit off hook with a power does not stop you from doing that if you have even decent pathing. There are exceptions of course- such as basement. I do not see that as an unhook issue, but as a broader issue with how basement completely skews the risk-reward of camping.
For both sides, change the score cap to being 40k total rather than 10k in each category. In relation to tunneling, this more adequately rewards a survivor that ran the killer while being tunneled. For killers, certain killers are way harder to max out in certain categories making it much harder to reach the cap.
I mean thats fine. I've never really cared that much about bloodpoints, but that seems reasonable.
Before the killer has a total of 4 hook stages, any death hook survivor receives aura reading on all other survivors for 60s.
I don't really understand the point of this. This is just an issue with how soloqueue is in general. Just add voicechat and a ping system to survivor and the issue of coordinating resets vanishes entirely.
TLDR: i think most of the changes you suggest address symptoms instead of the root causes of issues. I also think that most of the changes you suggest aren't even related to tunnelling, but are instead complaints about other mechanics entirely.
Giving a longer period of elusive and haste would make it much more possible for survivors to use LoS blockers to escape the killer, while also fixing the current terribly thought out issue that the elusive tells the killer exactly when the survivor's endurance has run out, they just need to wait for the grunts of pain and scratch marks, so as it is it effectively makes tunneling even easier.
Hard tunneling is the meta. It is mostly done on strong killers such as Blight or Nurse because they can get downs extremely quickly, even against a decent survivor. These killers are also often some of the strongest at defending gens, creating map pressure, and rushing across the map back to the hook, making no time to unhook actually safe. Even if the player is good, expecting them to consistently last a long time in chase against a Nurse or Blight, especially when most of their chases they have one health state to begin with, is unrealistic for most players, especially depending on the map and as resources may get consumed.
The solutions to tunneling are not basekit. The only basekit "solutions" are 1. other survivors (who for many people you are not queued with) to body block, which does not work on killers like Nurse or Billy, and 2. just be better. 10s of endurance doesn't do much when a killer is breathing down your neck, it just extends the chase a few extra seconds. And you're right, every other "solution" is attached to perks you and your teammates are not guaranteed to be running.
As for solo queue players being uncoordinated, yes, they are uncoordinated at least in part because of a lack of info, which the 60s of aura reading is meant to try and address. By having that 60s of aura reading, the tunneled survivor can go to a teammate for a heal if they manage to use the elusive and haste to lose the killer. If they don't manage to lose the killer, they can either bring the killer closer to a teammate in hopes that, now that they know where they are being chased, the teammate may come and take a hit, or if the tunneled survivor is confident they can last a bit longer they can take the killer far away from any gens being repaired. BHVR is adding a communication wheel which will be useful, but won't be able to give some of the more specific information needed, and it's extremely unrealistic to expect voice chat to come to this game when the community is very opposed to it. Even if voice chat was added, so many people would choose not to use it and the problem would very much still exist.
For the DS change, I am assuming you weren't around when DS was changed to 3s and became an absolute joke. Even at 4s killers such as Nurse, Blight, Henry, etc can easily down the survivor again in a few seconds. I wouldn't even consider this a buff, as even if the stun is 1s longer, the perk entirely deactivates only a few hooks into the match, preventing any kind of aggressive DS usage for the majority of the game.
As for the second of invulnerability off hook, this does make m2 abilities like Dracula's hellfire worse for camping. This effectively makes it so that the killer can either confirm a hook trade or go after the tunnel, they can't essentially get two health states for one attack and then continue to tunnel anyway.
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@Rick1998 said:
No
Care to explain what problems you have with this system?
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Shoutout to the dude that made that 200 page Clown guide, that's nuts
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@pidgeon said:
2 seems like it would only help swfs attempting to bodyblock, won't really affect solos. Aside from that still completely agree with these changes.
The idea of the aura reading in this scenario is that if the unhooked survivor is able to use the haste and elusive to slip away from the killer, they are able to easily find a survivor to get them up to full health. If they aren't able to easily lose the killer, they have the choice to 1. if they are confident in chase, they can choose to run the killer away from gens, getting a ton of gen progress done, or 2. run the killer a bit closer to an unoccupied teammate and hopefully they will bodyblock or save. A decent SWF would be able to know where their teammates are either way for bodyblocks, so this really doesn't do much for them.
I originally had it so that teammates could also see the death hook survivor's aura, but I heard some concerns about intentional and unintentional sandbagging with that. Perhaps that effect also would be better though if it was on the same 60s duration (since in my original concept this was an effect that lasted until a certain number of hooks / gens which could be a long time).
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Most likely if I had to guess it will happen at some point. Right now the license not being in DBD encourages more people to try Halloween for the Michael Myers experience, but once enough time has passed that pretty much everyone who is going to try the game has had a chance to, bringing Myers back to DBD wouldn't really take away from Halloween anymore, and keeping him out of DBD would just be denying the license holders more money. When this happens BHVR has no control over though, and it still could technically not happen.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
Why not just make it proc if you have assisted in the gen repair?
Kind of like red herring/help wanted/Machine learningI think this idea has merit, maybe once you have done 30% worth of a gen then it's like a compromised gen (like how you referenced Help Wanted and Machine Learning), where whenever that gen pops you get the bonus? It could still obviously activate off of finishing the gen, I think it would be dumb if it didn't. Because as it is, even if the idea of it activating off any generator popping is overpowered, OP is right that the perk is pretty weak. I ran it for I think 6 games or so with an entire build around it, I think I only got value once even when I was trying my best to force it, and even then it was only the 3rd generator so it didn't make a huge difference.
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@SpyUA said:
every new update survivors get NERFED
Name me a direct nerf to survivors (perk nerfs don't count, vigil got gutted cuz it was insane and it was only used to activate exhaustion perks quicker and other effects were just a powerful side effect, bhvr does realise it's bad now and will buff it later), I can name a buff each update to survivors, so pallet density update which made every map have 20 pallets and every update after that new pallets were added after the pallet density update, base kit bt (which was another buff to survivors) became 15 seconds and recently this got reverted (because this got abused with constant body blocking) to 10 seconds with elusive, it's a buff overall and elusive is decent.
If you think survivor role is miserable then play killer and tell me how miserable will that be.
While the OP's mentality is very survivor sided and I don't think reflects an accurate view of the game (perhaps also due to frustration), but if you somehow think this and that killer is somehow more miserable than survivor, you need to play more survivor.
First of all, you can't just say "perk nerfs don't count." Perk nerfs are wayyy more impactful to survivors than killers, as a lot of perks not only due not universally work to the same degree on every killer, but the killer will always be left with it's actual core power. Perks are the main powers of survivors, items are usually consumed pretty quickly and some people don't even bring them. You also can't just say Vigil doesn't count "cuz it was insane," because yeah, sometimes that's why things get nerfed. Because they're overtuned. But keyword, it's still a nerf. In addition, BHVR hasn't confirmed they will buff it later, they have said "we will be keeping an eye on it" which is BHVR terms for "idk we might change it we might not, stop complaining we've got other things to do."
In this last update, we received 4 huge nerfs to the survivor side. Vigil obviously got completely gutted, Sprint Burst's power got reduced by a whopping third (not including that it's indirectly nerfed by the Vigil nerf), and Deliverance, while the least meaningful of the three, got nerfed quite a bit as well. In addition to that, unhook protections got nerfed to 10s with the addition of elusive that does nothing to an actual tunneling killer. Yes it used to be 10s almost a year ago, but it is a huge nerf nonetheless, and if you played survivor you would actively feel the rampant amount of tunneling. It was already bad before, now it has somehow gotten worse. And how are you even arguing that base kit BT was another buff to survivors when it was over 4 years ago? I'm assuming you didn't play back then, because holy it was a needed change.
With pallet density, yes it has gotten on my nerves multiple times that "you still aren't out of pallets???" when I've shredded through 10 pallets already, however in my experience most of the pallets are much weaker and more outplayable than the few pallets on each map as of a couple years ago. It wasn't a survivor buff, it was a side grade that benefited some killers that are good at making resources unsafe and playing around them while hurting some killers like Demo and Bubba, and BHVR has still not adequately buffed them to compensate for this so that they can keep up with the pack.
Lastly, for most of my 2000+ hours on this game I have been a survivor main. And yet, last patch and especially this patch I have essentially become a killer main. I didn't even use Sprint Burst or Vigil, in fact I prefer not using any exhaustion perks because I think they are a crutch and playing without them makes me improve more and it feels more rewarding. But especially as someone who spends most of his time solo queueing, as most of the playerbase does, this game has just gotten genuinely miserable for survivors not in a competent SWF. There was already rampant tunneling last update, but now it's gotten even worse, and they even added a killer that ignores anti-tunnel perks entirely. It gets so frustrating and exhausting and makes you want to quit altogether. Even when I play with friends, I am by far the most experienced so I have to run a full anti-tunnel build for my friends just to try to keep them alive because the killer will almost always try to immediately tunnel out the weak link, and that's exhausting as well. I don't want to play babysitter every time I play with friends.
I have been spending more and more and more time on killer and while there have definitely been frustrations, I live in bliss compared to when I play survivor. This isn't even a question of balance, but rather the experience. At a high level, the game will almost always favor a coordinated SWF. But because that is the minority of the playerbase, even on my second main, Ghost Face, I am able to win the vast majority of my games. Even on Ghost Face, one of the worst killers in the game, my experience is infinitely better than on survivor. There is a reason that nowadays there is almost always a BP multiplier and a 10s queue for survivor and a 5m queue for killer. If you genuinely think killer is way more miserable than survivor, I genuinely think you have not played enough survivor.
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@random1543 said:
Server side checks are a big one that I think would help retain players.
I see so many players say the game is killer sided then show examples of the killers just having horrible ping. more experienced players know you gotta play different versing them, newer players do not and blame the game (which it is the game fault for not having checks for bad ping players and allowing these hits to register)
more servers could fix this but dont stop vpning / server hopping, if bad ping was not encouraged tho people wouldn't want to server hop nearly as much.
My second vote would be for custom games where you can solo play with bots as a surviour. ive seen a lot of players want this.I mean I think even higher hour players want server sided checks. I have over 2000 hours on this game but because of where I live I'm very often on 70-90ms, and it puts me at a huge disadvantage. Even if I play accounting for my ping, my ping automatically makes it impossible for me to reach certain resources or loop less safe pallets that I would be able to if my ping was lower.
I didn't include the netcode on here since I'm assuming their netcode is something they'll be rewriting with the overhaul, but one thing I'd like to see come out of that is using server sided checks for replays and detecting cheaters.
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@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115076#Comment_4115076
For tutorials there's that new feature that shows what each power does so that's at least something and also a tip how to counter it/use it.
I think the issue is that while that feature is great for new players, it does not give you a chance to practice playing yourself, and it assumes that you are equipped enough to actually do something with the information it gives you. Don't get me wrong, it'll be great for new players to understand what just happened to them or how a killer works because the game is very confusing, but brand new players aren't taught how to loop, what Anti-camp is, what they should prioritize in different scenarios, etc. I just don't think a fresh out of the oven baby Dwight would understand how to make use of those killer info pages.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
Killer perks I hate
NOED: weeny hut junior killers want free kill
Hex:TOTH: i LoVe HolDiNg rB
Franklins: yeah dw I totally didn't want that purple item i brought to the trial.
Weave attunement: and great now they can see me all the damn time too.
No way out: did gens, now you've got to hide for an extra minute, better hope you weren't on death hook when you tried to open the gate.
Survivor perks I hate
Head on: hey here's an uncounterable situation. Suck it.
Blast mine: huge hypocrite on this one, love using it, getting hit by it infuriates me more than I can accurately express.
Champion of light: I hope every killer you play against has lightborn.
Flashbang: I hate that sound
Boil over: I will literally tunnel you.
The part I hate about Head On is how the hitbox lingers. There have been so many times I have known what the survivor is doing, successfully baited them out of the locker, and then swing at them, but then because the hitbox lingers for like an extra second I get stunned anyway even though I outplayed the hell out of them and they did not deserve that stun at all.
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@wesker_shades said:
As survivor: As of late. Celestial + Nemesis. That combo can burn on the stake in my opinion
As killer: Finesse + Lithe. Always hated getting robbed of hits due to that combo.Surprised to see people naming Finesse + Lithe but I guess it makes sense
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Even though I think every single one of these needs to be addressed (and have needed to be for a long time), I think the number 1 has to be the tutorials. New players are completely lost as it is, the tutorial only teaches you about the absolute bare bones of the game, and even then it doesn't do a good job. Even if survivors know they can unhook a teammate, they have no idea when they should. Players aren't even properly taught about perks, and are expected to either read about every status effect or just figure it out in-game. The anti-camp feature isn't mentioned at all either.
If we want new players to stay, we need it to be possible for them to learn the basics of the game without being expected to find everything on YouTube.
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Calling Fallen Refuge a map is an insult to even the worst of other maps.
Other than Fallen Refuge though, Midwich literally is still bugged to have multiple rooms with zero resources.
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According to BHVR the missing queue time is a bug that they still haven't fixed even with the Hotfix patch. As for everything else, because BHVR is extremely slow with any kind of meaningful change to the game and the code they have built the game on is absolutely horrid.
I only hope we see some kind of improvement after the overhaul, but the overhaul is DBD's chance to bring in new players, and it's going to fail to keep any if so many issues with new player introduction and QoL still exist.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
- On survivors only being able to bring 1 of each perk ,there would be a lot of frustration on who gets to bring what perk, and you make an entire build for soloque and suddenly half your perks are shut off because someone else alredy loaded in with them. I get some of the strongest perks are annoying to deal with, but knowing the enemy's perks is part of adapting strategy, for example you know someone has ds and they actively get in your face to protect the unhooker, you can now slug them and then chase the unhooker with 3/4 of the team busy off generators rather than just chasing 1 with 3 on generators.
- As for weaker killers we all that "power creep" as the game is evolving over time leaving the older basic killers in the dust. All we can do about that is hope for eventual reworks and buffs. As trapper and skull merchant alredy have reworks being worked on currently. (Ghost face can also still 1 shot people while out of stealth - if he manages to mark them, which some find quite easy to do mid chase, or mark them to 99% before closing in or chasing them later)
- As for bloodpoints i agree it takes too long and doesn't feel rewarding. As an owner of 9.9 prestige 100s (im working on one thats 95 right now) it barely feels like you earn anything on a basic eventless day of playing. They seem to have trouble balancing it as a survive with friends team of 4 ensuring they bring stacked anniversary cakes every round seem to be the fastest road to prestiging, but as a solo player its quite slow. But they also don't want you to prestige everyone on the roster to 3 in a week and have nothing else to prestige for. Events also make you skyrocket through prestiges, especially bloodmoon and anniversary. Like Shane Wiigwass is the one i have at 95 and he came out around when u started, all because of the cakes and event bonus points.
Pretty much everything I wanted to say. I will also add a couple things:
- While aura on the Judgment is kind of busted right now and makes it way easier to get snipes, Judgment as a character does require a lot of skill as you get better at the game and go against stronger opponents. The difference I've had between a new Judgment crutching on aura perks versus a skilled Judgment who might also have some aura perks is astounding.
- I'm not sure how much you've run into these things, but DBD is extremely buggy due to it's poor coding being based on an old "spaghetti code" foundation BHVR made 10 years ago. Like I said, this makes the game incredibly buggy, but also limits a lot of what they're team is able to do with the game (such as being unable to add replays). I'm happy to tell you though that the graphics overhaul is also a coding overhaul, basically rebuilding the game from scratch. We're also supposed to get a full modding suite, although I'm not sure if that's at the same time. So there is a lot to look forward to there, lets just hope we get some good killer balance changes in the meantime (please help my boy Ghostie)
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114548#Comment_4114548
Would be more entertaining than any Us/Them we usually throw around here. π€£
Imma start with Mint Pistachio
I'm throwing in a little bit of my childhood with Rainbow Sherbet
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@DavidByDaylight said:
Rebalancing game servers should be much much easier than fixing the network code. There's no excuse for not doing that UNLESS the developers just don't care about user experience (which is true and most people would agree with this).
I think it honestly is just more penny pinching. BHVR solely uses the Amazon Web Service servers, which are incredibly limited as you can see on the current map. Most online games are on Google or Microsoft servers, often a combination of 2 or 3 of all these providers.
I want the overhaul to be a big deal that brings in new players and encourages them to try DBD or get back into DBD, and keep playing. The 9th anniversary FNAF chapter brought a ton of new people to the game, but I don't think the game managed to actually retain many of those players because of it's poor state. Hopefully the overhaul will fix the terrible code and netcode, along with making the game look modern rather than out of the PS3 era, but the game will still struggle to keep many new players if a lot of them are not properly supported with servers. If a large chunk of players can't get lower than 80ms in a game that is extremely ping dependent, they're much more likely to give up on it.
As much as I hate this game sometimes I also love it, and I want to see it succeed.
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@Soma_RTA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114432#Comment_4114432
Look up what rollback netcode does it would most likely solve most ping related problems if implemented correctly
After looking up rollback netcode, there would be a few issues. I think the idea is in the right direction, but rollback netcode is meant for small game state, 1v1 games which is why it's often used in fighting games. It's also apparently very hard to implement because you have to rewrite the core game logic in order to make it work, although I guess the coding overhaul would be the time for that.
I'm no expert, but it seems like DBD currently uses a very simple server-side hit validation system, where the killer's client makes an input and the server validates the hit, but it doesn't seem to factor in lag properly. I think DBD might need to go down the path of the netcode from tactical shooters, which has similar elements to rollback netcode. They use client side prediction alongside server side lag compensation (which is the part that is similar to rollback). Their netcode is built for larger game states with 10 players at a time, which is much more along the line of the 5 players a match DBD has. Could be completely wrong though, I'm not a developer.
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Personally, I don't think DBD feeling the same all the time has much to do with the maps. Even though I'm very familiar with all of the maps, there's a lot of them. I also think that the game already has plenty of issues with things like which way shack is oriented combined with the random pallets or tiles can create a huge string of windows and pallets that's either extremely strong or occasionally just overpowered. I think randomizing the main building location would not only be difficult for the devs to do, but also would probably create more of these types of situations.
I also think that the main building of a map is usually how players get their bearings for where they are, especially at the start of the game. I think randomizing its location would make it much more disorientating especially for newer players.
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I noticed that too, I'm glad I'm not crazy thinking it didn't do that before. I've almost accidentally queued into a couple different games not realizing that I'm still queued even when my friends leave the party
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@Soma_RTA said:
This game needs some kind of rollback netcode it would really help alleviate higher ping players and make the game much more responsive and less about who lives closer to the server
Yeah the net code is a huge issue as well, it was bandaid fixed to make this game hosted on servers rather than peer-to-peer and was never fixed. I'm assuming it'll be redone with the coding overhaul, but not only will that be another year (if they release it on time), but fixing the net code alone won't fix the issue.
Even with decent net code, many players in the US and Europe will still be stuck on 70-100ms, with a lot of other players being stuck anywhere between 100-250ms because BHVR does not have any servers near their country. This game is incredibly ping dependent, it literally bottlenecks your capabilities. Especially if they want the graphics and coding overhaul to be a big deal and bring in a lot of new players, they absolutely need to fix both the net code and the amount of servers to actually keep those players.
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@Mikeadatrix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114405#Comment_4114405
I'm just gonna start lying and saying I've been here since Day 1 with 30K posts and an autographed generator from Mathieu Cote.
And I actually have 20k posts and have authentic DBD hooks in my closet to hang all the peoplβ¦clothes I have collected.
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@HexPectoPatronum said:
I live next to Frankfurt and have been dealing with high ping players for 10 years nowβ¦ it's so frustrating and unfair because in DbD living close to a server actually puts you in disadvantage. Usually you would expect the exact opposite β¦
By far the largest player base in Europe seems to come from Russia and the surrounding regions and the most of them connect to Frankfurt. And I keep getting hits from killers when vaulting a window on MacMillan while they're being on Coldwind Farm (Kappa).
It's an absolute joke that the world's largest country isn't getting its own server.
Yeah I didn't realize how many Russian players there are, but as @wesker_shades put in his post a Moscow server would be great for that if possible. We just have a pathetically low number of servers right now, and several of them are constantly off
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@RDyer05 said:
Thatβs a fair point, although I definitely wouldnβt want the data to automatically mean a killer gets nerfed. Iβd see it more as a flag for Behaviour to look into.
Theyβd also be able to spot sudden organised spikes pretty easily compared with genuine long term player behaviour.
If a killer stayed unusually highly avoided over months and across thousands of players, that would probably tell them something useful.
Just a couple of things.
- Just a heads up, if you don't quote a person's comment or @ them, then they won't get a notification you responded to them.
- I understand the idea that a highly blocked killer tells BHVR that they are highly disliked, but people are very vocal about which killers they don't like already, and BHVR just recently took a player survey including thoughts about all the killers in the game, so they should have a decent idea already.
- No matter how disliked by one side, there are plenty of enjoyers on the other. Myself and a lot of the community dislike Knight's gameplay loop, but if they rework a bunch of killers that people dislike going against then it isolates the killers that still enjoy playing as that character. What BHVR really needs to be reworking are killers that are too weak or too strong, and killers that are not particularly liked on either side of the fence (ex: Skull Merchant is getting a rework partially because her mains are not happy with her current state, although she is also very weak)
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@RDyer05 said:
Yeah, I can see the queue time concern, which is why I thought limits or a soft avoid could help.
For us though, itβs not really about refusing to learn a killer. We know how to play against Judgement, we just donβt enjoy those matches.
At the moment the four of us are choosing not to play DBD at all, so I was thinking keeping players in the queue with one killer avoided might be better than losing them completely.
Although I understand the appeal of the idea, especially because I knew someone who literally couldn't play against Chucky because of her phobia and would either have to DC or run in a straight line with her eyes closed. However, this would just make queue times so much worse for certain killers. As much as I don't enjoy playing against Knight, I'd hate to see his players get way higher queue times because people don't like going against Knight. I just don't think that would be helpful for the game.
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@Trolas_1919 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113973#Comment_4113973
Bruh I did not get Myers in time lmao, that is why I am asking for this
I see, if you just want to like never leave Night Shroud you can probably run the iri Caught On Tape and a Nigh Shroud cooldown addon (either the one that resets the cooldown on a pallet/wall break or the one that simply reduces cooldown by 2 seconds). Otherwise Undetectable builds on all kinds of killers can be really fun
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If you just want stealth at all times Scratched Mirror is still a thing, and you can still essentially play old Myers with an addon. Don't touch my boy Ghostie, get your own Ghost Face >:(
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It's only been live for a few hours, there are a lot of cheaters on DBD but how many cheaters could you possibly have been getting to instantly feel the difference? I think we need to wait and see for a bit