Rip vigil will not be missed
Sincerely someone who can actually play freddy at optimum hinder now lol.
(For those not in the discord they said itll only apply to exhaustion at 30%) which will be d.rd as well if stacked with other ways to reduce it so should be nice. Judgement looks good too.
Comments
my apologies i thought it was just making it worse on exhaust perks not completely removing everything else. imo the perk should only work on non power non self inflicted status effects.
vigil and sprint burst are two peas in a pod. both have needed addressing for a while now.
we need to not be encouraging mobility creep because it's Vigil, SB and Finesse which makes m1 killers resort to playing the likes of Ghoul
I know I know, just nerf
Circle of Healing, Decisive Strike, Dead Hard, Medkits, Gen Times, Maps, Keys, Made For This, Flashbang, Fog Vials,Sprint Burst and all those closet non-tunneling, perkless Trapper mains will surely flood the queues any day now. This time will definitely be the one.except it was 40 percent at that value not 66 percent lol that's referring to the tick rate which was 1.66c/s
It's not the value that was the problem it's how it affected every status affect + Exhaustion, I don't think there is anything wrong with something that helps with status effects of specific kinds, but we have nothing of the sort rn and that's what I'm guessing is coming next with perk designs/item designs.
It would just help if they were clear about that.
this is gold!
when was the last time you saw Executioner in 2v8? they don't exist, because you counter sprint burst or you lose.
I for one am optimistic that I may be able to play some slower killers. Actions have reactions, but people are too quick to panic and only look at the immediate changes and not consider long term.
everybody kicked, screamed and cried bloody murder over CoH and Dead Hard being gutted but Dead Hard now is a perk that only commands respect. Any time I get got by it I have to say "well played". But If this place had their way, we should have kept OG Dead Hard because people just see "killer buff".
SB gutted, Blights a 110 killer and Nowhere to Hide is working how it should this was a good year for combating mobility creep. Nature is slowly healing!
To be clear, I am not making a case that Lightborn needs to, or should go away. I am saying it is a double standard, because it affects a relatively large portion of Survivor gameplay including perks which they would have no way of knowing were a waste of a perk slot before a match. Vigil and Lightborn are effectively the same in this regard. I think it's ridiculous to Gut Vigil at all, Its just as absurd as gutting Lightborn. because A perk SHOULD have an impact, that's a large problem with survivor perks. Most of the perks that do have impact are rendered effectively dead because all of the sudden "thats OP".
I get the notion that Survivor Perks are supposed to be weaker than killer perks for the obvious reason that theres a 4v1 scenario and if you give survivors too much you defeated the point of them having the short end of the stick from the outset which is… kind of the point of the game, that a killer should be threatening. However, if Behaviour want's to rectify the disparity of perks one major step that hasn't been addressed in earnest is that the game outright encourages people to play for themselves. A lot of survivors definitely go out of their way to help teammates, and a lot of them don't either. but the DBD "Goals" are "Escape at all costs" or "Kill at All Costs" which I think are poorly forced narratives that encourage the game to be too linear anyway but that's a different topic; The point is that Survivors need perks that are impactful because in the current state of the game they cannot Trust their teammates to be playing as a team.
That leaves one problem wide open: SWFs, anything you can buff for Solo Queue is by extension abused by SWFs. IMO this is more of a case of making too many perks the exception rather than the rule. what I mean is that "useful" perks are in such short supply that its like oh boy here comes the full bully build SWF team and they're going to be running XYZ but XYZ are three repeatedly occuring perks largely because most other viable perks get gutted one by one and unviable perks are never really made viable again. that problem extends to killer also btw. there's a reason we see so many of the same perks for killer, it is because there's an excess of horribly unusable perks.
TLDR: What I am saying is perks SHOULD influence the game in noticeable ways, this is exactly why antitunnel and exhaustion perks are always at the front as are Slowdown Perks like Pain Res… people aren't provided much freedom of expression in builds because there's not very many viable builds at the top of gameplay. If I am playing killer and I put on perks, I want them to actually visibly do something, If I am playing survivor and I put on perks, I want them to actually visibly do something. there are far too many perks that "may or may not" effect the game. thats bad design, most every perk should be meaningful rather than most every perk being niche and a select set being meaningful and the design flaw I am trying to highlight is that they should not be taking away perks that make a difference because other ones do not, they should be figuring out how to make the other perks make more of a difference.
All I did was point out that you intentionally made blinding out to be a less impactful part of the game than hindered.
Of course. Yet people always bring up M1-Killers when they want to justify Survivor Nerfs, even if you dont encounter them and people will not suddenly start playing more M1-Killers.
no, but the idea is that balance changes are done in good faith and will be iterated upon. For example, Ghoul isn't strong enough to warrant nerfs but maybe after these changes something will change and his haters will have something to be excited about. but no, problematic perks have to be protected by tribalism because "our team" doesn't deserve nerfs.
LMFAO
Mods need to pin this comment on the front page.
It seemed to be used about as much as "Made for this" back when everyone figured out it just makes you run faster in any chase, and for almost the same reason, so I can understand the nerf. It may have been cut down but still has a purpose with exhaustion perks.
Watch 'em drop the laziest surv ever with his three perks all giving 30% recovery speed on one status effect each.
Anything resembling something useful will get the usual channels proclaiming the end of DBD and it will be nerfed into irrelevance on release or in the first bug patch after release.
Streamers also can destroy any build they dislike.
They just make series this is op. Done.
But they are fine having blight having 1000+ wins in row or with Nurse or with Hillbilly.
But oh something else must be deleted
I think he was conflating vigil counters ghostface, with instead SB counters ghostface.
And because SB and vigil are 2 peas in a pod one could come to the conclusion that vigil counters Ghostface.
While they’re not technically right as vigil doesn’t affect the exposed, they aren’t technically wrong either as sprint Burst kinda guts ghostface as you’ll have more than enough time/distance to make it a loop and can start predropping till the exposed timer is up.
Then you can do it all again in 20 seconds thanks to vigil.
idk that’s just how I read it. That’s what makes these things so hard to balance and talk about because while some look at things in a vacuum, at the end of the day the game isn’t like that in the slightest.
I mean it IS a 1v4 asymmetrical game.
Shouldn’t the 1, be a power fantasy? Thats kinda the whole point of the genre.
they always have been in a 1v1 if you choose it to be but the point is 4 working together are supposed to be able to overcome the 1 if they work hard enough, it's called survivor not victim.
We have such resourceful characters on survivor side and barely any of the perk choices enable them to feel powerful in their niche now with all the recent changes, perks are the closest thing we have to entirely change our gameplay.
We aren't supposed to just roll over and take it.
Imagine having a perk that makes you recover from MANY negative status effects (Hindered, Exposed, Exhausted, Blindness, Haemorrhage, Broken, Mangled, and Oblivious) by 66%. That's a HUGE effect and it doesn't even work on you only it also works on ALL survivors 16m from you. not just that even if the survivor leaves outside the 16m it still lingers 15 seconds for them.
Imagine having all that just by using one perk slot and survivors still have 15 slot left btw (don't forget that survivors have 16 perk slots and the killer has 4 perk slots in a single match). I know my comment will probably get down-voted by Vigil users and Survivor mains because they can't just accept the fact that Vigil is a really unhealthy perk for the game idek how devs let it be like that for years. It ruins many Killer powers, Add-ons, and builds like imagine Freddy or Clown bring an exposed build (Hubris, dragon's grip etc) wasting their 4 perk slots risking playing with a different playstyle strategy with no slowdown gen perks. One single perk slot(Vigil) ruins their power, their build strategy and it just makes the game over for them so they feel forced to tunnel or slug more. it just creates MANY other unhealthy scenarios.
The new Vigil version faster recover from exhaustion for ALL survivors not just yourself isn't gonna be a terrible perk not making it F or D tier but yeah it won't be an S tier anymore and ofc its pick rate will decrease which is okay if it was unhealthy. It's a big nerf because we're comparing it to the broken unhealthy version but if the perk just got released with a new character we wouldn't say it's a terrible perk.
I agree, It should never get to a, “just roll over and take it”, scenario; but there should be a level of tolerance and expectation of not everyone making it out alive which the current playerbase is severely lacking (same goes for people for expecting every game to be 4k if they’re playing trapper. the goal should be 1-3 kills per game for average killer; and maybe 2-4 if you’re sweating or using S tiers). The other extreme is just as problematic, just look at what happened to TCM.
The ‘Victims’ weren’t weak at all either escaping in sub 2 minutes, or going on the offensive keeping half the family perma stunned with doors and bone shivs.
Unless it was leather face already revved or Johnny out in the open, the family would almost always lose the 1v1 interaction. And then throw in the other 3 victims, unless you had all the family on comms ready to guard those objectives like it’s overtime at the championship or an absolute monster leatherface main, most solo queue family games ended in 4 escape loses.
While infinite bone scraps and infinite door slams were eventually nerfed/fixed, the damage was already done.
I can’t speak for how the meta ended up at the end of the game, I quit a little before the graveyard was released and after hands was released; but if I wasn’t going into games as LF or using the OP barge hands build most of my games would’ve been clean sweeps.
I wish more perks that changed gameplay for survivor were better I agree, but vigil/SB/most gen perks don’t change your gameplay just make it faster or easier.
When I think of perks that actually change how you play and affect your gameplay loop I think of stuff like head on, smash hit, balanced landing, dramaturgy, totem/boon builds, deli, shoulder, clean break, exultation, wide open throttle, autodidact, weaving spiders, plot twist, sabo builds, killer aura reveal perks, stealth/scratch mark builds, power struggle/flipflop; these all open up new pathways of play that isn’t the same do gen faster and run to yellow and predrop faster and get endurance and haste for existing.
Those are my thoughts.
Might as well remove you begone crouching meg with sprintburst you big dum dum!
There are alot of reasons TCM ended the way it did, DBD players are the only ones that claim it was the victims strength because its used as an excuse for how DBD should be balanced. In the TCM community (when people announce they were leaving or why friends left) the reasons are usually the cheaters at the start and how Gun handled the issue, lack of bug fix updates and bugs like the backfill bug thats existed from the start never being fixed, lack of new content and also it being overpriced, Guns overall attitude towards the playerbase, Gun not addressing the rush meta for both sides, and Gun fairly early on (I think it was around the 1 year anniversary) announcing they "couldn't" increase the level cap which let players know that they weren't actually planning to even support the game long term.
Stun lock and bone scraps were both nerfed not long after the game's release, they were some of the rare things they didn't put off addressing. I still log into TCM, I started playing TCM at the start mainly as a solo family/no mic and usually as Hitchhiker (Cook or Sissy if he was taken). According to the in game stats I have 3257 matches played with 1166 as victim and 2091 as family. For family I had 1046 perfect family wins (4k), anytime last victim would DC to end the game it wouldn't count towards that stat. Outside those perfect wins most of my family matches were 2-3k, 0-1k were not very common. As victim I survived 416 times, only 116 were perfect victim wins (0k). Victims could rush escape but family could just as easily rush basement and kill them all just as fast, it was nearly a guarantee if there was a Leatherface with Johnny or Sissy. Most times the rush was a Connie who would rush escape solo and leave the rest of her team to die.
Johnny and Leatherface weren't the only killers that could 1v1, Sissy and Hitchhiker also won many 1v1 interactions because they could go through cracks/crawlspaces. Johnny and Leatherface weren't necessary for a family win either, I had many 4ks with Hitch/Sissy/Cook combo in solo queue/no mic.
Victims weren't weak but they also were not so strong that they were frequently getting clean sweeps either, atleast not in my solo/no mic family matches. The main issue for family (outside cheaters and bugs) wasn't the strength of victims or even victims that rushed, it was the other family members. Family that would leave doors unlocked, turn off car battery/generator, stay in the basement when victims not only had left the basement but had made their way into the battery/generator areas, or family that would purposely door slam other family. The bad teammates are what pushed players away from family and to victim where they could escape solo (and leave their teammates to die).
I’m not making excuses for the guy per say, I just don’t think it’s fair to discredit the whole opinion of one thing got lost in translation. I’d like to give a bit benefit of the doubt.
But yeah if they thought vigil countered ghostface’s expose duration that’s just incorrect, you’re completely correct on that.
That also why I said he was conflating his information, because he likely heard many YouTubers say at some point ‘SB/vigil counters all these killers like ghostface, clown and Freddy and a ton of other addons and perks’ thus parroted the phrase without the context of how it counters those things specifically.
Additionally what leads me to this conclusion is he already brought up exhaustion perks earlier that that comment “most used perks in game and one of most op ones for survivor like sprintburst…” so he likely was already thinking about them in addition to just vigil.
And if we had certain perk specific pick rates in addition to combo I bet the SB/Vigil usage % for both together would very high, add in other exhaustion perks, it’s probably a near ~99% (hyperbole) for vigil to be paired with an exhaustion perk; it’s simply not as common as a solo perk, but just because it isn’t a common solo perk doesn’t mean it’s bad, that’s what lead it’s initial buff in the first place. Bhvr probably saw the low solo usage rates then buffed it making it an even better combo perk (which was a big problem with old bhvr balance and one they still struggle with is looking at perks in a vacuum and not part of 4 slot build, gets even trickier when you add the other 12 perks from the other 3 survivors).
Vigil post buff simply had the best of both worlds, being a good solo perk and great combo perk, while nurturing about 1/3 of the killer addons, a few killer powers, and many many perks for free; them changing it to being just exhaustion keeps its combo with those perks intact, while no longer making it a free catch all shotgun counter to many killer tools.
We HAVE to drop looking at things in a vacuum for the long term health of the game, survivors don’t have 4 perks, they have 16, killers don’t get one slowdown perk then can stack 4 on top of each other and drag the game out 20 minutes. These thought processes is why the game meta feels so stale because nothing is allowed to actually change, lest it upset the status quo.
The overpriced and slow content definitely did it for me, like I bought that pass like an absolute sucker to try and save some money in the long term, but then they straight up cancelled half the stuff that was announced in that.
Still waiting on that hair pack.
Even with crossplay on I was very very lucky with cheaters, only saw 3 blatant ones.
And yeah the devs whole ‘we don’t gaf about the game’ didnt help much, every livestream/announcement was very cringy and killed what little hype there was.
I didn’t care about the whole lobby dodging and wait times thing because I was very patient back then and was just happy to be playing the game. thankfully I’m not streamer who had to entertain an audience for minutes of silence waiting in queue, but yeah I can definitely agree their whole handling of that was abysmal.
The nothing to grind for at the end was very annoying, I found it so hard to believe they couldn’t up the level cap, after I got the plat for the game my drive dropped off a cliff.
TCM may have been a disaster as some points, but I’m glad it happened still sad that it’s ‘gone’. I’m not sure how they’ll handle Halloween, I think I’ll watch from sidelines this time instead of getting invested, I don’t trust Gun and illfonic to actually stick it out for the long haul. They’ll probably pump out Halloween get their checks and dip just like tcm.
I bought the content pass too. I waited on the character DLCs until they were half off, and by that time it was easier to get a lobby where I could play them. The sad thing is there was unreleased content in the files people saw like a new female family character and some new kills leaked into the game. They had additional content there but decided not to release it.
I'm on console and with crossplay at the beginning saw a ton of cheaters. Mostly instant kill/escape, flying victims, teammates duplicating traps/locks, and one where everyone was gifted like 20k xp - that last one I liked. 😂 I kept crossplay on when they put pc/console back in queue together, cheaters became much more rare.
Lobby dodge as a whole I didn't mind, made sense with the way they did the character choosing. It was the bug that just broke the lobby when someone on family would leave and wouldn't fix until a victim left that was the problem. It's part of why I played so much family, one less chance of breaking the lobby. Outside that bug the waits weren't bad, still aren't bad even with the smaller playerbase.
I still log into TCM because I find it fun and can still find a full lobby pretty quick. Logged in the other day and theres so many new players. I feel bad killing them. Gun noticed the increase in new players and made a video about how they are releasing game/dlc bundles for them. Alot of comments with it being last chance money grab mixed with people asking for Gun to revert the decision to abandon. 😂
Halloween game will depend on how much Gun being financiers has on the games support. Illfonic at the very least tends to continue support on their games even if they stop/pause content. Ghostbusters Spirits Unleashed Illfonic put out new content for 3 years, all free, until announcing they were putting it on pause to focus on Halloween. I was going to wait to see how long Gun sticks around and how that would impact Illfonic supporting it but then I saw the survivor gameplay loop is "lead the npc to safety" and I lost all interest - I don't enjoy "lead the npc" stuff in any game.
Lightborn mostly effects items use (flashbank is item from perk) by removing killer being able to see items in lobby you now make lightborn more fair because its now more rng then compare current state where people slap it on when they see multiple flashlights in lobby.
Vigil needed some nerfs for two main reasons first it can higly effect negatively some effects from certain killers powers not to mention addons but main problem is that even core effect from these killers powers are effected like exposed from ghostface or hinder from clown and freddy which arent best killers mostly on weaker side or their main strenght is in one certain part like chase for clown which vigil effects higly.
Second thing is it makes exhaustion perks way more viable which are already one of best perks in entire game survivors can have except like few of them such as balaced landing (strong perk but depends on map having accesiable highgtounds to fall from which many dont have or have few which limits its power compare to other perk like lithe where its requirement is very easy), smash hit because stunning isnt so easy easpecialy against some killers like ones with range power like nemi,xeno,huntress, jason. The backgroud player is not so bad because you dont need vigil due to it having lov exhaustion cooldown and being used for saves not it chase or to prevent chase so this perk after its nerfs is ok I would say.
Vigil does a lot for just having one perk while lightborn is problem because of the lobby thing which devs diddnt spot and fixed in these 10 years because without killer being able to see items this perk is fine.
Vigil needed some changes/nerfs it did lot of things which mostly screwed all killers that werent top tier with very strong ability to catch up. Mostly used with sprintburst it made these exhaustion meta perks way stronger then they should be like having to wait 40 seconds or 24 is big difference especialy when is meta perk dont you think.
Still effects hinder which are main freddys and clowns chase tools how to get downs plus its makes meta exhaustion perks way stronger by making their exhaustion effect almost half of what they should have.
Its hilerious people like you still blindly deffend broken stuff. Vigil needed some change thats a fact.
even saying that wouldn’t be outlandish because of trappers hemorrhage and mangle add ons.
I mean bit of a strawman considering no one uses those add ons.
I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw all mangled, blindness, hinder, expose addons see an uptick now that vigil isn’t a catch all perk.
this is, again, a double standard. Plagues existence ruins every healing perk in the game, and every single medkit or altruism build. and that is an across the board thing, every survivor ever who is running a heal build into plague is borderline perkless just for playing the game, people aren't picking vigil queuing up expecting a freddy or a clown, but guess what? Across the board nerf because theres a chance that it MIGHT be a clown and this perk counters him. that's why its a double standard. Plague is rare to see and so is Freddy VS Vigil or Clown VS Vigil. Clown and Freddy are already rare to see regardless. the Exhaustion perks are commonplace because they are the line of perks that have the most real and tangible effects against the killers, and people like when their perks do something instead of situational/rng nonsense when they are trying to win. there is enough RNG in the game already by the way, survivors have to deal with it on just about everything. killers can deal with it on some things too it will be fine.
Ghostfaces power isn't even affected by Vigil, by the way.
Was Vigil a strong perk? yes, but thats because DBD is balancing perks as "strong" based on whether or not they have a consistent impact, which is absolutely crazy. why would I want to use perks that DONT have a consistent impact?
when did vigil get nerfed.
Plague is double edged sword at one side you cant heal but on other side she has no power and is super tall m1 who leaves smoke behind her so she is easier to see and read when looping plus people rin on gens due to fact they cant heal.
Only thing that keeps her strong are two main things first is soloq teammates that are unorganised and give her power/red puke fontain in very reacheable place and second are very strong addons that mainly make her that high tier killer. She is rare while she is very strong with good addons and effective against low skilled players but at average she isnt that problematic.
Vigil not only screws few powers but makes meta perks nearly one time stronger like sprintburst,lithe, cages perk that gives you haste on command too.
Tbh as double standart you can take fact that two survivors can double a gen but killer cant team on survivor at this point. Its mainly asymetrical game where one part is bit stronger then other so it cant be symetricsl in gameplay by 100% just dwight cant take down 1v1 mayers like base skin fotnite character can omniman.
Edit: perks wont be all good just because some do things that hive you more time or second chance which will be always better then some perks that help survivo open chest faster or killer to to see chests and droped items
Totally Irrelevant by the way. I am not talking about whether Plague is "Strong" or not. Vigil has a low escape rate, its already below the 40% aim, I am talking about the fact that The Plague is allowed to exist despite totally nullifying an entire element of the survivors gameplay, not make it weaker, but totally destroy it. Vigil does not do this to the Clown, it does not do this to Freddy, there are four survivors, if you are having trouble catching someone with vigil then chase literally anyone else.
This doesn't even make any sense, at least not in english if you think Vigil is making a survivor anything like a 1 to 1 with a killer you're just Delusional.
Not vigil but you said plague is not fair because she is huge double standart so compare that part you marked from mx post with it :) .
From where you have stats that vigil is trash and people die with it a lot??????
A nightlight maybe? Not worst info site but I dont think its that bad because when I see vigil is with SB or lithe newer alone but always with meta exhaustion perk which dont make it bad.
Reason they nerf it is same as eruption from gen kick era it just works very well with certain meta perks and makes them way better then they should be.
If you think its not double standart that survivors can double a gen or triple it ( multiple survivors doing one gen at the same time) and killer cant double a survivor in chase isnt double standart then you are kinda hypocritical (kinda joke but theres some sence in it, even when I didnt wrote it right like oxford professor).
I kinda miss TCM. With proper, dedicated support, I wager it could have seriously competed with DBD.
it’s getting nerfed next patch on Tuesday, to only affect exhaustion and it’s dropping to 30%.
I’m pretty the radius is still the same at 16m
can’t believe we never got chop top.
That would’ve been sick.
I feel like TCM could have competed with DBD if it wasn't so grindy. Like god dang, TCM was way more grindy than DBD.
more account levels and less XP required for perk levels would’ve been nice.
Like trying to use scout at anything less than level 3 was really annoying, same can be said for a lot of the perks honestly, some of them were just worthless until levels 2-3.
I am still amazed by how bad Gun dropped the ball on that game. They had a license agreement that allowed them to create original characters/maps and expand that universe, it would've been nice if a dedicated dev team could've taken over. I do believe TCM being 3v4 and Killer Klowns being 3v7 was what pushed BHVR to finally try alternate game modes, especially 2v8. It would've been nice to see the games push eachother to be better if they lasted a bit longer.
Judgement just got shot in the back of the head, Merchant is still unplayable, and gen speeds are so fast that killers have to tunnel to stand a chance, but when you're the victim of a bad BHVR decision, then it's a problem.
Should've made it 40% and just removed hindered from it so it doesn't affect Freddy and Clown. Everything else was fine I'd say.
They couldve remove exposed, exhaustion and hindred from the perk and leave it at 66 % as anti-anti heal perk and buff ghost notes to 25 % and no one would complain.
It was overkill for a single park to serve as a counter to various Killers’ special abilities and to reduce the duration of the Survivors’ strongest perk’s drawback, so it’s no surprise it got nerfed. If anything, it was overdue.