Dreigonix
Dreigonix
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Thank you for listening, BHVR. I have no other comments. This was good.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110716#Comment_4110716
I mean not really, Killers have to juggle 8 gens at once and survivors have to juggle 8 gens at once… its stale, is what i am saying… most killers can quickly void filler pallets and lockers feel obsolete as a way to hide, its just for perk interaction or brief killer power interaction (except The Dredge) and I am not even saying Lockers or pallets or whatever should go away, I am just saying side objectives feel not worth doing, hex builds in their strongest form are a nightmare, hex builds in their weakest forms dont work at all, boons mostly suck unless used in a SWF and people who run them in solo queue tend to grief the game by prioritizing the uptime of a boon over the generators… I think these are indirect factors that influence why tunneling is so prevalent…
there's just not that much to do ultimately, if a killer runs someone down early, throws them on the hook… 90% of the time people are coming back to it right away and you can just proxy camp it and wait and then they come because they have to unhook their teammate and you get free hits on them at the hook, then you can run down the guy you're tunneling again… rinse and repeat. that's happening so often because thats all thats going on. from the killer POV: Why not, they ran into a bad part of the map and they're hooked by a 3gen or a hard place to save from and I know that their team has to come get them. its basically the overpunishing of a part of the game that has to happen. if theres a game where a killer gets zero hooks its just a severe mismatch by definition but if a single survivor gets hooked its immediately a free snowball option for killers because survivors have to leave their only objective (if they are even doing it) and run to save their teammate. The UI to see what your team is doing helped a little but even still people just go to second hook kind of a lot in solo queue from camping alone because by the time Solo Queue survivors even realize that the killer is proxy camping, if they were doing the right thing and doing a gen on the opposite side of the map, they get punished for that and don't have enough time to reach the surv on hook. sometimes just to rescue someone who was hooked a single time in an inopportune place it takes all three survivors to even rescue them. that experience is absolutely horrible in solo queue and rarely works out for survivors…
this is why pain res is still so popular, kick a gen without being there for your first hook buys you some time and sets survivors back without you even having to leave the hook, when whoever comes to rescue you get a free hit on the hook, or two… so you bought yourself a kick on a gen across the map without moving and free injured states… these things overwhelmingly harm solo queue over SWF teams though, because there's no proper way to communicate that it's happening until its already too late most of the time. someone is hooked, pain res goes off, Dead Mans Switch, you have to find something else to do for some time anyway, might as well get the unhook, run into the killer who is waiting for you to do that, ultimately you have to get hit to get the unhook because the anticamp is very easy to exploit as killer, you die… the only mistake made there for the survivors is literally the first person who was put on the hook, the second survivor was on a gen, pain res, DMS, runs to save but the killer is standing there waiting to chase you into the hook so he gets a free down from it, you die for the act of having to save a teammate, or the alternative is that all survivors show up and the game stalls because one person got hooked. bad game design, its no wonder that it feels like its Griefing because survivors are losing because the best killer strategy is to win Via overpunishing people for saving their teammates off of a hook.
There are just too many situation hook proxy into a tunnel makes too much sense from a POV of winning for the killer, that's a bad game design. that's why perk changes won't fix it, it has to be totally voided from the game with some kind of compensation for killers to ensure they still have solid options to win.Agreed with most of this, but the initial framing is flawed. To paraphrase zuhkashi:
The survivor team has to repair five gens, open the gates, and escape while racing the killer's hook progress.
The killer has to find survivors, win chases, carry survivors, hook survivors, protect gens, manage map pressure, predict where survivors will rotate, keep track of hook states, prevent resets, watch for flashlights, sabos, and body-blocks which can all cause a minutes-long play to have been entirely wasted, and somehow be in multiple places at once, while effectively racing a 90-second-maximum clock for each gen with a single survivor on it. Note that there is only one killer doing their objectives and four survivors doing the survivor team's objectives.
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@Mortimer said:
Yet another survivor perk right into the trashbin.
Wonder why killer queues take 15 mins, have fun playing Minesweeper while you wait buddies.Judgement just got shot in the back of the head, Merchant is still unplayable, and gen speeds are so fast that killers have to tunnel to stand a chance, but when you're the victim of a bad BHVR decision, then it's a problem.
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@cammoking123 said:
It's hard to feel bad for killer mains. Y'all loved the streamers when they got sprint burst, cross examination, and vigil nerfed. Loved them when they got anti-tunneling and slugging killed. Reap what you sow.
Cross-Examination was literally broken and could give infinite stealth and free basement escapes. And the anti-tunnel did nothing to fix the root of why killers tunnel, which is that it's the only way to physically have enough time to beat the insane gen speeds.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110711#Comment_4110711
absolutely insane comparison at the end of the point there ngl but regardless The truth of the matter is that Tunneling has been Cemented as the best option in a lot of games for a lot of killers, which makes it way more oppressive when its being done by people who are very good at that killer or are already playing a high tier killer… it's just every single game, its an outlier when its not someone tunneling and that's why the game needs to change so that it isn't valid but also so it wouldn't be necessary at all. I think part of what feels lacking in DBD to me right now is how narrow the objective is: 5gens / 4 Kills. the only other objectives ever are when killers have a side game in their kit or when there's hexes/boons in play which usually don't feel good to have to deal with.
I think it makes a lot of sense for the match goal to widen, I think it will help with the staleness of games, it will lead to more killer innovation and more ways to play towards winning as a survivor… I am not even sure what that might look like in practice but the far end is that the objectives to escape are different per killer, though I understand how extreme that is as a concept its just unreasonable for the game to shift that much all of the sudden, but I wouldn't mind the base game changing you know? its just been hatch or door for years and years and for killer its orbit gens or a hooked person so that i can keep pressure on the match and win…Agreed. Killers have to juggle a hundred objectives at once; survivors should have more stuff they have to do.
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@esarraf Chess Judgement is a totem problem, not a Judgement problem. Totem progress should decay gradually if you hop off, not all at once.
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Boosting this. I'll say it again: this was the community-created killer and they destroyed her at the last second to handhold situationally-unaware survivors.
You couldn't make a DBD meme that ridiculous. What an insult.
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Agreed. Totem progress should decay gradually over time, not instantly.
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@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110698#Comment_4110698
I don't think survivors are completely fodder now, and I do think pallet density can feel awful on killer, but I do think that the reason why survivor feels so incredibly weak right now is because the amount of tunneling has gone up because recently it's become even more efficient. Perks like DS and OTR have been severely nerfed, and soon the issue is going to get worse because the duration of unhook protections is going to be reduced (and elusive for just 10s is going to do nothing against a camping killer or a mobility killer that darts back to hook). Nerfing DS and OTR would have been a good decision if there was actually a system to replace them, especially a system that more accurately punishes tunneling rather than any killer that just downs the wrong survivor (often because they shove themselves in the killer's face). But no such system has been added and we have no idea if such a system will be coming, especially considering BHVR's last attempt was canned.
I agree that tunneling is a problem— but keep in mind, killers tunnel because there is physically not enough time to hook everyone before the gens fly. The tunneling problem is downstream of the gen-speed problem. Punishing killers for tunneling is like punishing a starving mother for stealing a loaf of bread; you're not solving the root of the problem.
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Another legendary horror icon nerfed to C-tier at best, before he even comes out. I will not be buying Jason in his current state.
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@claysgaming said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064405#Comment_4064405
Im talking about her release version. Her first rework which turned her into a chase version with stealth drones was awesome
Ah, gotcha.
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@claysgaming said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063659#Comment_4063659
the only thing she was good at was 3 gen though. She was very weak in chase
3-genning hasn't been possible since the gen-kick nerf.
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It's Trickster's map but it's terrible for Trickster.
I… really don't think I have to say more than that. Again, as a Trickster main, this chapter was a mockery.
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@ThatRyanB said:
We're so excited to share the update with y'all today! As always, we'll be keeping a close eye on feedback to bring back to the team, so don't hesitate to head over to the Feedback section to let us know what you're thinking of the changes :)
Oh, we will. Not that BHVR is going to listen to us now if they didn't during the PTB, but we will.
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I'm going to copy-paste the relevant parts of my other post about this update:
"I've loved Trickster since the original All-Kill chapter, but he has been consistently frustrating due to BHVR's apparent fear of allowing him the mobility and power he needs in order to be functional, especially with survivors as powerful as they are these days. This chapter was supposed to be Trickster's "comeback"… but instead it was a hard nerf to an already C-tier killer. On principle, this is insulting and I feel like I was straight-up lied to. And what makes it all the more galling is that the universal player response was that Trickster needs to stay at 115% speed and 44 blades, otherwise he ends up needing to hold W for 20 seconds just to get within blade range… and BHVR simply ignored us, expecting the key-jingling of an admittedly-cool Ultrakill style-point system to distract us.
This wasn't a comeback, it was a mockery."
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Just revert her to pre-nerf. That's all they should do.
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I've loved Trickster since the original All-Kill chapter, but he has been consistently frustrating due to BHVR's apparent fear of allowing him the mobility and power he needs in order to be functional, especially with survivors as powerful as they are these days. This chapter was supposed to be Trickster's "comeback"… but instead it was a hard nerf to an already C-tier killer. On principle, this is insulting and I feel like I was straight-up lied to. And what makes it all the more galling is that the universal player response was that Trickster needs to stay at 115% speed and 44 blades, otherwise he ends up needing to hold W for 20 seconds just to get within blade range… and BHVR simply ignored us, expecting the key-jingling of an admittedly-cool Ultrakill style-point system to distract us.
This wasn't a comeback, it was a mockery. Especially compared to what survivors got— Windows Of Opportunity is still a problem, and rather than address it, BHVR gave survivors an even stronger new version of it.
Also, Trickster's new map is TERRIBLE for Trickster, BHVR was repeatedly informed of this, and they ignored this too.
(Edit: I think the threads got merged or something and now this looks like I double-posted)
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They destroyed him.
Not only did they destroy him, they didn't listen to the fans telling them to keep him at 115% and 44 blades.
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@Dreigonix said:
I want the game to be balanced, but not because I think it is or should be a competitive game; it isn't and shouldn't.
I'll let you in a secret: as a killer main, I'm fine losing games if I feel like I'm able to be a threat and provide a tense, nail-biting experience. I want to be able to scare people and make them feel dread— this is why I love stealth killers and trap killers; this is why I think global-condemn Sadako was her best iteration. And when I play survivor, I also want that tension; I want matches where I CAN win if I play well, but I never feel safe.
Unfortunately, with the game balance in such a bad state, survivors are being coddled for their mistakes and allowed to feel safe far too much. (Keep in mind, all a killer is capable of doing is punishing survivors for their mistakes, and perfect-play survivors will beat a perfect-play killer every time.) As a result, the tension is gone, and survivors feel bored and killers feel helpless and non-threatening.
This is in largely the fault of a small number of extremely overpowered killers with a stranglehold on the meta. As I've said elsewhere, the game is balanced around Nurse, Blight, Ken, and one or two others. That's not a lot of killer variety, and they're so overtuned survivors HAVE to sweat their brains out to stand a chance. Fear goes away when the fearsome thing is constant and repetitive, and for having to go up against the same overpowered killers every time, I'm not surprised survivors complain about being bored in matches.
A caveat to that last part, though: It's also the fault of— I'm gonna say it— a certain group of survivors who kinda just want free wins, don't want to have to interact with the killer beyond clipworthy instant-gratification sick dodges and loops, and complain when the game makes them think. This is what got Sadako and Merchant nuked, and it's why BHVR keeps pumping out dashslop while neglecting stealth and trap killers. Of course killers like Blight are as common and overtuned as they are; they're very microplay-intensive and give you a dopamine rush akin to nailing a Call of Duty trickshot.
Regardless, this leaves a lot of killers feeling defanged and useless. When I try to play someone like Trickster or Artist or Ghostface or Sadako or Merchant or Pig, I feel like I'm just being bullied, because the game is balanced around microplay-heavy high-speed hack-'n'-slash killers, and half the roster has been essentially forgotten. And when I play survivor, I don't feel threatened; I feel totally content to just sit on a gen and not worry about what to do if the killer comes by because I'm running Windows and I know where all the safe tiles on the map are.
All this means the game just isn't tense anymore. I want the game to be balanced in service of tension. I want survivors to never feel safe; I want killers to feel like a threat; I want that skin-of-your-teeth escape to feel that much more rewarding for it.
DBD should be a horror game.
I love how I'm being downvoted for the notion that the horror game should be tense. You're literally proving my point.
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Care to elaborate?
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
A few things here:
- Where is the evidence that the game is “hemorrhaging players?” Player count on Steam is still historically high even after the very typical drop in players following the recent chapter release.
- Fully agree that there needs to be some rebalancing of killer strength across the roster. Blight is fine IMO - I’ve never really had a problem with him. Nurse feels very bad to go against with skilled Nurse players, but I rarely run into a skilled Nurse player. Kaneki and Krasue are definitely still busted and need further nerfs. Then there are the killers at the bottom like Trapper and Myers (somehow worse after recent rework) that need some love to make them worth playing.
- Agree with others who added that the existence of good SWF teams is also a big problem for game balance. BHVR’s continued refusal to implement some sort of handicap for these teams based on things like their MMR scores, escape rate, etc means that killer players are going to continue using the sweatiest killers, builds and playstyles to combat really good, coordinated SWF teams. I’m only willing to get behind these types of balance changes if we’re going to address the overpowered aspects of both killer and survivor roles.
Agreed. The SWF/solo-queue disparity is very, very rough, and unfortunately, I can't think of a lot of ways to nerf SWFs since their core advantage comes from them using third-party comms, which BHVR can't regulate. All I can think of is to give solo-queue survivors proximity chat and then nerf survivors hard, but I can't see that going over well…
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015205#Comment_4015205
survivors feel bored and killers feel helpless and non-threatening.
We must be in alternate realities because this is the opposite of how I feel.
I see survivors complain about being bored ALL THE TIME. And like I said, if you play killers other than Nurse, Blight, Ken, and Krasue, it's shocking how often you get into matches where you're comically helpless against how fast the gens fly and how many pallets and second-chance perks survivors have.
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@イエローミント said:
Both she and I are waiting. Personally, I’d rather see her become a more fun character as she is now, rather than a rework that turns her into a generic dash killer. I really like the idea of the Claw Trap, but currently it rarely attaches to survivors, which makes most of the addons nearly useless. If we have to wait for a full rework, I’d at least like to see some minor adjustments in the meantime.
This. Literally all BHVR has to do is get in contact with Pixel Bush; he's played Merchant longer and more devotedly than anyone and he's made multiple pitches for reworks, all of which preserve her identity as a macroplay-heavy killer.
But anything's better than turning her into more microplay dashslop.
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I want the game to be balanced, but not because I think it is or should be a competitive game; it isn't and shouldn't.
I'll let you in a secret: as a killer main, I'm fine losing games if I feel like I'm able to be a threat and provide a tense, nail-biting experience. I want to be able to scare people and make them feel dread— this is why I love stealth killers and trap killers; this is why I think global-condemn Sadako was her best iteration. And when I play survivor, I also want that tension; I want matches where I CAN win if I play well, but I never feel safe.
Unfortunately, with the game balance in such a bad state, survivors are being coddled for their mistakes and allowed to feel safe far too much. (Keep in mind, all a killer is capable of doing is punishing survivors for their mistakes, and perfect-play survivors will beat a perfect-play killer every time.) As a result, the tension is gone, and survivors feel bored and killers feel helpless and non-threatening.
This is in largely the fault of a small number of extremely overpowered killers with a stranglehold on the meta. As I've said elsewhere, the game is balanced around Nurse, Blight, Ken, and one or two others. That's not a lot of killer variety, and they're so overtuned survivors HAVE to sweat their brains out to stand a chance. Fear goes away when the fearsome thing is constant and repetitive, and for having to go up against the same overpowered killers every time, I'm not surprised survivors complain about being bored in matches.
A caveat to that last part, though: It's also the fault of— I'm gonna say it— a certain group of survivors who kinda just want free wins, don't want to have to interact with the killer beyond clipworthy instant-gratification sick dodges and loops, and complain when the game makes them think. This is what got Sadako and Merchant nuked, and it's why BHVR keeps pumping out dashslop while neglecting stealth and trap killers. Of course killers like Blight are as common and overtuned as they are; they're very microplay-intensive and give you a dopamine rush akin to nailing a Call of Duty trickshot.
Regardless, this leaves a lot of killers feeling defanged and useless. When I try to play someone like Trickster or Artist or Ghostface or Sadako or Merchant or Pig, I feel like I'm just being bullied, because the game is balanced around microplay-heavy high-speed hack-'n'-slash killers, and half the roster has been essentially forgotten. And when I play survivor, I don't feel threatened; I feel totally content to just sit on a gen and not worry about what to do if the killer comes by because I'm running Windows and I know where all the safe tiles on the map are.
All this means the game just isn't tense anymore. I want the game to be balanced in service of tension. I want survivors to never feel safe; I want killers to feel like a threat; I want that skin-of-your-teeth escape to feel that much more rewarding for it.
DBD should be a horror game.
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@ArkInk said:
I agree with the idea that S tier Killers like Blight and Nurse have been too overpowered for far too long and need some adjustments.
I also agree that newly released Killers like Krasue and Kaneki are overtuned to an unfun degree and need readjustments to fall back in line.
I do not consider Wesker anyway near those 4 in power. His Dash ability and infection mechanic keep him manageable yet threatening, and I'd even say he's one of the best balanced killers in the game against experienced and inexperienced teams respectively.
I'll admit I'm kinda biased against Wesker 'cause I don't find most dash killers interesting and making him a simple dash killer was an insult to his depth in Resident Evil, but I can concede that people like him for reasons I don't. We can focus on the others for now.
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Still no reply. It would be nice if we had someone who was in charge of relaying our concerns to the devs or something…
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@ThatRyanB said:
Hey there forum folks!
It's autumn, which means chilly fall air, carved pumpkins, and the return of our Haunted By Daylight event! In addition to bringing back Smoke Bombs and Captured Haunts, we've added some new tricks (patrolling Void Haunts) and treats (new additions to the Void Well) to keep you on your toes.
Whether this is your first time stepping into the Void Realm or you're returning to haunt again, we've put together an infographic to walk you through everything you need to know about playing this year's event.
Check it out below for all the details ⤵️
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FZKUJK3DGWGS/dbd-halloween-gameplayinfographic-1-2-01-vf.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/67KYAKNH2OKJ/dbd-halloween-gameplayinfographic-1-2-02-vf.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/V2OT3RD4VEZS/dbd-halloween-gameplayinfographic-1-2-03-vf.png
Just stop. Stop trying to distract us. FIX YOUR DAMN GAME.
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@DeeBeeDeeAddict said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/458559/why-doesnt-killer-get-to-abandon
Survivors wait at the exit gate to heal other survivors who are still running there. They might be trying to get more BPs because late heals offer a bonus over regular heals. They could also be trying to take a protection hit for another survivor, which also gives them BPs. They could also be wanting to run down the clock so they can squeeze out more XP, since XP is tied to time in the match. They could also be wanting to trigger a basic attack from the killer that'll miss when they exit, since there are quite a few BS Tome challenges where you need to avoid basic attacks as a survivor.
There's a multitude of reasons why survivors wait at the exit gates. If your ego is so fragile that you don't want to walk over to the exit gate and push the survivors out because they might hit their Ctrl button… this might not be the game for you.
Have you tried Animal Crossing or Mario Kart?
Ooo, we got an alpha male over here. Some survivors really are just desperate to not lose the ability to make the other players' lives just a little bit worse, huh?
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Boosting this because the devs absolutely need to see feedback like this.
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@Defnotmeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4013657#Comment_4013657
And this is why I am honestly all for the anti-slug anti-tunnel patch as they presented. It would reduce the strength of all killers, including the big 5, and from that point you start buffing all other killers.
I still have to encounter or play a killer where I would be like "if the patch was implemented, I would have lost". In fact, on many of them I would have been able to win. There were some edge cases where it might have screwed someone over, but that was maybe 1 game every 30 games played. That's not that many, considering killers win about 25 out of 30 gamesI would have been fine with the anti-tunnel measures, but only if they reduced the threshold from 6 hooks to 4.
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This. We need TARGETED nerfs to those six and buffs to everyone else. Those six killers are holding this game's balance in a stranglehold.
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I'm fine with reducing start-of-match dead zones so survivors feel less helpless, but ONLY if we get MAJOR killer buffs (for everyone except the Big Five— Nurse, Blight, Wesker, Ken, and Krasue) so that killers do not feel as helpless as they currently do.
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Two months later, the game still feels absolutely miserable to play. When are we gonna get some transparency? Because right now, it feels like you're lying to us to get us off your back. What EXACTLY are you doing RIGHT NOW to fix the game?
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YES. PLEASE.
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@Balrog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4013280#Comment_4013280
Yes! Natively:
We appreciate all the feedback on the Reverence Rift and the upcoming Halloween Event, and we'd like to keep the conversation open about our plans going forward.
After changes with our production partners temporarily halting development of recolored outfits, we brought Deep Rift items earlier in the Premium Track as well as rebalanced the Charms & Player Cards in the Free & Premium tracks to compensate, resulting in an increased disparity between the two.
We understand the value that the Rift brings our players & the importance of a rewarding experience, so starting with the next Rift, in addition to bringing back recolored outfits, we will be making adjustments to strike a better balance between the tracks.
"We have heard your concerns and decided to do absolutely nothing to actually address them."
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Everything about this is not only horrible, but completely backwards. You have completely removed Merchant's identity as a killer and made her into a killer who is simultaneously absurdly oppressive by way of five flying Victors and yet also made completely useless by anti-slug perks and simple lockers. The proposed Red-Light-Green-Light mechanic is obviously only there to capitalize on stale, repackaged Squid Game hype, makes the radar irrelevant since drones have cameras now, and does the opposite of what it should do— tracking mechanics like that are meant to help a killer find survivors who are doing gens or healing, but the counter to this one is doing the things that make the killer wish they could track you.
I'm glad y'all bothered to ask our opinion on this before sinking money and effort into it. So all I can say is, honestly? Watch Pixel Bush's new video on the Merchant design preview and… just implement his suggestions, honestly. We beg of you, listen to the people who have been dedicated to this underrated killer forever. Don't just tear her identity away.
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The fact that Sadako still has a lullaby, defeating the entire purpose of her stealth ability, is absolutely galling. It needs to go.
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@Skillfulstone said:
It's really sad that we reached the point where, in the suggestions & feedback thread, there are suggestions made purely to spite the "other side" despite knowing it'd be unhealthy.
These kinds of "ideas" would literally just annoy the vast majority of Killers that don't use Franklin's for the sake of getting petty revenge.
You would never catch a killer player doing this. Not even a killer main, just anyone who played ANY killer.
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Skill issue. If you don't wanna be tunneled, run OTR and DS.
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I’m actually somehow less mad that Pig is getting nerfed again than I am at the NERVE of BHVR to lie to our faces and say it’s a buff.
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Stomach issue. Maybe horror games just aren’t for you.
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Genuine question: Do you even play killer? Ever?
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645777#Comment_3645777
It was unhealthy and encouraged slugging. Its better now. A bit too weak but better.
I'd prefer it to be : nothing can shut down tvs but no condemned happens the entire match.
This would give her unmatched map mobility at the extend of all slowdown. A fair price.
That would be boring as hell. You might as well just play Wraith or Dredge then.
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Don't hate the player; hate The Game.
(AKA the problem is that The Game still has way too many pallets and it should really be toned down)
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They fixed the 3-gen issue with Merchant LONG ago. Just get better at disabling drones.
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Yes please!
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@Skitten56 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638645#Comment_3638645
PTB Sadako was still weak against any survivors that understood her counterplay. The post PTB nerfs were just the nail in the coffin. BHVR needs to address how disproportionate her counterplay is towards survivors. Right now they can turn off TVs to deny mobility while also protecting from condemn. Hold that tape as long as they like, and then insert it mid-chase with 1s insert times. Not to mention how skilled survivors can use the TV auras to ruin any sort of surprise teleports.
Legit.
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@Skitten56 said:
The new 10sec cool-down on condemn is fine IF BHVR makes additional changes to address the other short comings in her kit. Mainly how the counterplay disproportionately punishes Onryo and rewards survivors.
The issues with her strong counterplay
Right now survivors can avoid practically any condemn simply by looking around the gen they are at, seeing a TV aura and then turning off the TV. This also has the additional effect of denying Onryo's mobility. Since holding a VHS tape is now risk free, there is no reason not to do this simple counterplay. This counterplay is perfectly fine and healthy, if the necessary adjustments are made. The main issue is what can Sadako do to build condemn pressure after survivors do this simple counterplay.
Once survivors learn this basic counterplay in the coming weeks, Onryo will be unable to spread condemn to survivors working gens most of the time. The result of this is that she will have to push survivors away from gens and teleport in chase to build condemn. This becomes a problem though.
If survivors can always see the auras of powered TVs within 16m, they will always know if they are at a risk of getting condemn. This gives them a lot of information not just when working a gen, but also in chase. Survivors can use these auras to see if she teleported to a close TV in chase. They can use these TV auras to know the best direction to run away if she teleports to a close TV. They can use these auras to know if she didn't teleport to a nearby TV and went somewhere else.
Simply put, survivors having such easy access to her TV auras gives them too much information and allows almost no uncertainty when deciding what the best possible move is when trying to counter her. This punishes Onryo a great deal and removes a lot of surprise or mindgames with TV usage.
Condemn in this version is much more difficult to build up for Onryo, it is unnecessary for survivors to have so many tools at their disposal to counter her in return outside of simply taking a tape before working a gen. Another issue is the 1 second tape insert speed.
With a 1 second tape insert duration, survivors to be able to drop off their tape mid-chase with 1s insert speeds.This means that any hard earned condemn can be easily removed, possibly before she even has the chance to lock in any condemn progress. Since there is now no practical risk to holding a VHS tape, and with condemn harder to build up, it is reasonable that survivors have to be more careful and strategic about how they drop off their tapes.
Onryo is a killer with a weak chase power. All she has going for her with condemn pressure and mobility. If her counterplay is too easy or forgiving for survivors, they will be able to deny both her condemn pressure and her mobility at low risk. At the same time Onryo will suffer a great cost from these actions by not having mobility due to her TVs being off and a lack of condemn pressure to make up for her weak chase power.
How to address her strong counterplay
TV auras
I understand BHVR likely wants to keep TV auras visible for survivors in order to help to figure out the counterplay and not make condemn oppressive to new players / soloq. A good solution therefore would be this:
- If a survivors is holding a tape, they can no longer see the TV auras of all powered TVs within 16m; instead they will only be able to see the TV aura of their target tape drop off TV.
- Additionally, when a survivor is in chase, they will also not be able to see the auras of powered TVs within 16m.
These 2 changes would allow survivors the ability to still easily find their first TV to avoid condemn, while still reducing the effectiveness of her strong counterplay. If survivors want to run around the map in order to turn off all her TVs, they will have a more difficult time finding them as well. If Onryo is chasing them, they will no longer have perfect information on whether they are near a TV to determine if she teleports to it and how to best avoid her if she does.
These suggested changes would still allow her counterplay to be easier and more straightforward for newer players, while still allowing for and providing some challenge for skilled survivors against a skilled Onryo.
Tape insert speeds
With 1 second tape insert speeds, the animation is so quick that on the PTB, survivors were able to quickly drop off their tapes mid-chase to avoid getting condemn locked in.
The best way to address this is to restore the tape insert speed back to 2 seconds.
This will be beneficial within her current state and these proposed changes. Survivors will still be able to avoid condemn by powered TVs when working a gen; however if Onryo is able to push them away and apply condemn while chasing them, survivors will not be able to just quickly remove all her progress in front of Onryo's face mid-chase.
Survivors should have to think about how to not be seen when trying to drop off their tapes. It should not be possible for them to just run straight towards their TV in chase without thought and insert it in the killers face.
The most urgent necessary add-on changes
Rickety Pinwheel and Sea-Soaked Cloth
Always turning off TVs when working gens as her main counterplay has the side-effect of making the Rickety Pinwheel and Sea-Soaked Cloth incredibly useless; I would strongly suggest BHVR reexamine these add-ons.
I suggest making these add-ons activate instead under the following condition (Pinwheel as example):
- While survivors are within 8 meters of a TV turned off by a survivor, they gain the Oblivious effect.
This would allow these add-ons to still be useful and would serve as a way for Onryo to address the strong counterplay within this version of Sadako, and a means to try and play around it. I think such a change would be very healthy and would allow for more creative and fun play.
Iridescent Videotape
This add-on is a great concept. It allows Onryo to trade away all her condemn pressure in exchange for mobility. It is also balanced by having a longer TV off duration when survivors perform the counterplay to her TVs. However there is one major problem with this add-on.
Since the add-on removes all Onryo's condemn pressure, it allows survivors to freely disable her TVs at no risk. A team with a smart survivor can easily run around from TV to TV using their auras and disable them all. Each TV would be off for 84 seconds due to this add-ons debuff, which is a very long time in DBD. This counterplay crushes her and completely negates the entire point of the add-on. A mobility add-on where smart survivors can easily remove all your mobility is pointless. This makes the add-on an actual significant liability against good teams as it can render her virtually powerless.
I suggest the following changes to the add-on to address this:
- The auras of all TV's are hidden from survivors, or the range is reduced to 8 meters.
- When survivors are carrying a VHS tape, they cannot interact with any TV other than their assigned tape drop off TV.
- When survivors are carrying a VHS tape, they cannot see the auras of TVs other than their assigned tape drop off TV.
The inability to see TV auras or range reduction would help stop survivors from completely shutting down her power with this add-on. Likely the TV auras were added to make condemn not oppressive and provide survivors a way to quickly be aware of their condemn risk and how to quickly counter it. Since condemn is not an issue when running this add-on, I feel the new TV auras are not needed here.
These changes would ensure she can still use this add-on for mobility, while also still providing survivors with a decent counterplay of during her TVs off at key locations for a significant 84 seconds (almost an entire gen of progress!). These changes simply make it so survivors cannot abuse this long cool-down duration to rapidly turn off multiple TVs, leaving her with no useful mobility.
Since she has no condemn threat or slowdown from this add-on and the duration debuff to survivors turning off TVs is significant, I feel these proposed changes are very fair and would allow the add-on to be more useful, balanced, and fun.
TLDR:
Sadako needs some changes to make her counterplay less strong and more balanced. When survivors learn her current counterplay, condemn is very hard to build but very easy to remove. Survivors are greatly rewarded for turning off her TVs to avoid condemn while also shutting down her mobility. This makes her counterplay low risk high reward for survivors and disproportionately hurts her compared to the coutnerplay of other killers.
SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE DEVS IN THE BACK
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@Nyog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638250#Comment_3638250
but then survivors would get punished for not playing around a killers power
Yeah. That's the point. If you can't be bothered to do the counterplay, you SHOULD be punished for it. Or do survivors just want free escapes?
Silly question. We all know they want free escapes.
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You killed her. She's legit unplayable now. Congratulations. Are you happy? All you had to do was keep PTB Sadako. But you didn't listen to the feedback of actual Sadako players at all, only to survivors who couldn't be bothered to engage with her counterplay.