jesterkind
jesterkind
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2572715#Comment_2572715
Legally obligated -by a contract they signed, willingly-.
Right, but we don't currently know if the decision to make the NFTs was made during that contract signing, or afterwards. Park Ave have the right to do it at any time, or so I'm given to understand.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's likely this NFT thing was part of the license agreement and whoever at BHVR signed it just didn't think it was a problem, and that in itself is what BHVR did wrong, but it's relevant to both the general outrage and the topic as to whether they cross Steam's new rules that they didn't create this, call for it to be made, or integrate it into the game; they just had to help due to the license agreement.
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Definitely seconding this, they could do with making that interaction radius a little wider.
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That specific change wasn't implemented- the change that Spirit did get is that you can now hear a directional sound while she's phasing, to try and gauge where she is.
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I've seen a few - I think people are still just unlocking all of those perks since the character is completely brand new.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2571909#Comment_2571909
According to the DBD twitter, though, they are responsible for the creation of NFTs. They actively collaborated on the project, after all.
According to the DBD twitter, they were legally obligated to aid Park Ave in their creation of NFTs through Boss Protocol. The nuance does matter, it depends on where Steam draws the line.
BVHR themselves didn't make NFTs, DBD doesn't contain any NFTs, if the ban is purely about not wanting NFT content on Steam then DBD is in the clear. If they want to take a harder stance to really make the point, DBD would be a great place to make that example.
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Nah. Killer player here too- this is a fine way of implementing them. Even though I'd like to see more nuance in the interactions, this is definitely the wrong direction to go.
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I'm still playing. Supporting NFTs is a huge black mark on BHVR's reputation, but in this instance the specific support is... pretty minor.
If they decide to actually do NFTs themselves, though, I'm going to revisit that decision.
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Hexes barely lasted a few minutes before, boon totems aren't really going to change that.
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Genuine question, what feedback are you referring to? I only saw the one post on the forum about Clairvoyance being in need of changes, everyone else I saw comment basically went "not that strong but pretty neat".
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Oh that's pretty nice actually
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It's almost always a cosmetic, isn't it? Usually a shirt?
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You're right that BHVR aren't the ones who made the NFTs nor even really should be blamed for their existence, but this has nothing to do with "woke culture"
I mean, woke culture isn't a real thing, but even when people use the term disingenuously it doesn't mean this. NFTs are a real, credible threat that cause real, measurable problems- Park Ave and Boss Protocol deserve all the hatred and scorn they can get, and BHVR deserve scorn and disappointment for not turning this down (assuming they had the ability to do so, it's not clear how much leeway they had currently).
There's a real problem here and it's not people finding something to be mad about baselessly. This community does have a problem with that, but it isn't what caused this.
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@Clevite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2569040#Comment_2569040
Thanks so much!!! Learning something new
Sure thing, happy to help!
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@TheMadCat said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2569116#Comment_2569116
But it means no more updates, and if your game isn't updated, you can't play.
Very possible, I hadn't considered that.
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It's worth mentioning that, at least to my understanding, the game getting removed doesn't mean Steam players will lose access to it- it just means that the game will be taken off store pages.
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@gilgamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2569088#Comment_2569088
If it really was solely at the behest of the Hellraiser IP owners then honestly how can keeping Hellraiser in the game even be worth it at that point? I have doubts that bhvr didn't have any say in this and they were just doing what they had to as the possibility of getting kicked off steam would never make the money they're gonna earn from the NFT's and even the Hellraiser chapter worth it
Who knows, honestly.
Maybe they're not legally able to back out at this point? That'd be plausible, but that's also assuming that BHVR didn't just agree to this anyway.
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@Rey_512 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2568724#Comment_2568724
It makes them an accessory, which is not much worse than committing the act themselves.
Pretty much.
The only way they get out of this without being at least partially to blame is if Park Ave orchestrated this whole affair after the license agreement was signed and BHVR just had to go along with it, but that's not a guarantee at all.
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@gilgamer said:
I feel like bhvr if they want to have any semblance of a chance of saving some face on this is gonna have to do a little more than a few tweets(which can't be trusted anymore anyways) even if they call it off, which I don't even know if they can, but considering how little they responded to the performance crisis during the RE chapter I'd be surprised if we got any more communication then vague forum posts and maybe a tweet or 2
There's no way that they can- they weren't the ones who actually signed off on this, from what we know. It's likely that they're not really even able to say they don't like it due to license agreements.
It's very frustrating but I don't see any way of us knowing exactly how this shook out without someone at BHVR leaking documents, which doesn't seem likely.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2568683#Comment_2568683
I hope that is is Park Ave who did the deal with the NFTs and BHVR had to be nice. And yeah, Boss Protocol looks super sketchy. They just appeared out of nowhere a month ago.
Well, it's unambiguously Park Ave who did the deal from what we know, it's just a question of how much leeway BHVR were given to say yes or no.
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@Clevite said:
I'm sorry. I know I'm a dinosaur to a lot of you, but what is a NFT?
Super condensed version: An NFT is like a digital receipt that says you own a JPEG, without any actual enforcement of that ownership, and the system that generates that receipt uses more energy than some small countries + is doing serious harm to the environment. They're a scam, and they're unjustifiable for legitimate businesses to associate with.
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@Madjura said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2568906#Comment_2568906
You get an NFT of a pig nerf. It's like an actual pig nerf, but completely worthless and meaningless in reality!
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2568904#Comment_2568904
He left in August or so I believe? He was a programmer, so it's entirely possible he was left out of any conversations about the NFT deal, but the alternative explanation is that the entire NFT deal happened in the time between August and now, which would be ~2.5 months.
Either the entire deal was super rushed (seems unlikely to me to be honest) - or a lot of the people working at BHVR likely didn't know about this deal and are only finding out about it now or have found out rather recently.
To be fair- in any outcome here Park Ave and Boss Protocol did all the heavy lifting, so to speak, so it's entirely possible the majority of BHVR didn't know about this until the last minute.
Not saying that is what happened, I don't want to extend that much goodwill assumption without evidence, but it's a possibility and I don't like leaping to conclusions, personally.
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@Cornpopers_Evan said:
Look, I understand that it was most likely a contract agreement that they had to make in order to get Hellraiser into the game(both the NFT itself and to say something positive about it) but, still, I sincerely wished that they could've looked at what Park Avenue was doing and simply said "no, we'll wait until Clive takes back the license". I get that they're still a company and, ultimately, everything comes back down to "how much money can we make" but this, THIS is just NOT the ok way to go about things.
Hard agree. This is where I land on the topic- they should've turned this down and that's what they should be criticised for.
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My understanding is that Steam's new rule is more about games which generate/actively contain NFTs, rather than games made by companies who partnered with a different company who made an NFT?
But hey, who knows. This was a stupid move and they might end up paying for it by being booted off Steam- I don't want that but I can't say they wouldn't deserve it.
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I'm disappointed in BHVR for not objecting to this on moral grounds and turning down the license, but I'm reserving my real scorn and distaste for Park Ave, who seem to be the ones who actually orchestrated this.
Of course, if I turn out to be wrong about that, it'd be different.
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@Impose said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2568710#Comment_2568710
It's not even a sin of omission. If I own a gun, and I decide to sell it to a known violent felon, then I go "well the gun is his to do what he wants with cause I sold it to him." Yeah technically I didn't do anything wrong, but anyone with a brain would know how thats gonna turn out
Completely agree, it's just worth mentioning that Park Ave are the ones selling the gun and BHVR watched it happen. It's important to be as accurate as possible with criticism.
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@Madjura said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2568647#Comment_2568647
Big agree.
For context, this is the Tweet that was posted on the official Dbd Twitter after a thread about this NFT deal was made (there is a reply by the official Dbd Twitter account to that Tweet, for full context open the Tweet in a new browser tab / window or something - it says there is no exclusive in-game content linked to the NFT stuff):
https://twitter.com/DeadByBHVR/status/1448649848840806402
This does NOT say that they did not work together with the NFT company. There is no lie or ambiguity here. But it is absolutely worded in such a way to distract people. When that Tweet was made they knew that they had been working "with Boss Protocol over several months to adapt in-game models for use as NFTs" (Source and full context of this quote here: https://twitter.com/DeadByBHVR/status/1450160150753562624).
They never said that there is no deeper partnership with the NFT company but at the same time they neglected to mention that there actually is one which is what people were upset about in the first place.
Me saying there is a deeper partnership is based on the official Dbd Twitter account posting that they have been working the NFT company over several months - to me that does not sound like a minor / casual partnership. But please feel free to disagree with me and form your own opinion.
My understanding based on these two pairs of tweets is that BVHR did work with Boss Protocol, but only in the sense of like, giving them chapter keys and the models on behalf of Park Ave. It seems like Park Ave are the ones who really orchestrated this- you'll notice the language in the original tweet heavily emphasises that Park Ave are allowed to do whatever they want with the models, which reads to me like BHVR themselves just knew about it without necessarily actively organising it themselves.
Obviously it's still unethical as hell to agree, but I don't think they lied here, by omission or otherwise.
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Merging the various posts into this one isn't helping, it's a little confusing
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@Lx_malice said:
Forgive me for being dumb, but what the hell is an "NFT" and why is it such a big deal?
Super condensed version: an NFT is a digital receipt that says you own a particular jpeg, and the system that generates it uses more energy than some small countries. It's a bad thing because it's dealing pretty hefty harm to the environment, and it has literally no upside, NFTs are a gigantic scam with zero redeeming qualities.
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Well, this sucks!
After seeing the most recent tweet, I'm pretty sure what happened here is that Park Ave were the ones who made the actual connection and orchestrated the whole NFT thing with Boss Protocol, and BHVR have some kind of obligation to tweet about it- if it were just the latest tweet I'd think that BHVR themselves made these NFTs, but based on the previous tweet we saw where they heavily emphasised that Park Ave are allowed to do whatever they want with the models BHVR makes, this seems more likely.
Obviously, this doesn't absolve BHVR of all wrongdoing here- if this was part of the actual negotiations with Park Ave they definitely should've turned the license down, but it does seem still that Park Ave are the ones who deserve the majority of the scorn for this disgusting move.
Side note. Park Ave are so getting scammed by Boss Protocol lol that company looks shady as all hell
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@NOCTURN_05 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2568498#Comment_2568498
I agree mostly, though I would want to keep some amount of haste bonus (maybe just the 5 seconds of 15%) as it would both increase how much Charlotte is used, and it's just very in character for her to quickly rage on towards those who hurt her brother
True, but survivors would know about it- it'd incentivise them not to kick Victor, which isn't super fair since Victor being up already has some benefits.
I could see it as a new addon, though!
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I like the idea of the Drag and the emphasis on removing Victor, though I worry all of these at once would be a little too strong. Even if so, though, these are all clearly well thought out, I like most of them! I especially agree with the slight nerfs to Victor so he counts for certain perks, that's a good idea.
I don't know that the improved information with all the killer instinct, nor the haste bonus to Charlotte, are particularly necessary- those I think might be a little overtuned.
Scent Trails... I don't think Victor really needs more information, having a harder time tracking healthy survivors is, I think, supposed to be one of his downsides.
Overall, I like it! Probably just a little much all at once.
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@Seiko300 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2566491#Comment_2566491
I generally just type wordwalls. That's not specific to you, so I apologize if I appeared to come at you aggressive out of the blue (although what may explain this is that I'm tired of this idea roaming around the playerbase- I don't take stock in it myself).
The idea you propose is not a novel one, and I assert that this is a distinction without a difference. A game which employs the aesthetics and atmosphere of the horror genre is as much a horror game as a game which intentionally attempts to scare its audience. Using the example you provided, Alien: Isolation shares many of the foundational principles with Dead by Daylight.
See if this sounds familiar:
- You play as a young, clever, and plucky survivor stuck in an isolated and unfamiliar place with a single, deadly killer. To escape, you must use your knowledge of engineering to repair various mechanical instruments to fix your abandoned and neglected surroundings, as you slowly uncover the story behind the circumstances of your entrapment, all while evading the relentless pursuit of an overpowering monster that uses it's superior speed, strength and its own malicious cunning to hunt you down. With few options to defend yourself, your primary methods to accomplish your goals and survive are to run and hide using lockers and other scattered objects to conceal your presence. With the help of some strangers and a few friends, you're able to fend off the violent assault long enough to survive, only to discover that danger still lurks around the next corner.
And though I don't particularly find this to be the end all be all of discussion, it is worth noting in order supplement my point that Dead by Daylight by all accounts is categorized as a Horror Title. Horror is first the top user defined tag on Steam followed by Survival Horror as a close second, according to wikipedia it is a Horror game, according to a basic google search- it is a horror game. IGN, Gamespot, Polygon, and so on, all refer to Dead by Daylight as a Horror Game. According to PC Gamer: "Dead By Daylight remains a horror game and there is still a paranoid thrill to skulking around the marshlands and repairing generators, but the more you learn its systems, the less scary it gets."
I am not new to this conversation, and I find the arguments that Dead By Daylight isn't a horror game entirely laughable. Although I do like the points you bring up and the analogy you make, I find the overall case itself none the more compelling.
Fair do's, I get wordy too sometimes.
Regardless: I'm not buying that. If we're taking the term "horror game" seriously enough to suggest that DBD is lacking in elements of that genre, then we need to understand what a horror game is beyond simply having spooky elements. Fallout 4 has spooky elements but calling it a horror game would be laughable, and it's the exact same way (albeit to a lesser degree) with Dead By Daylight.
There are two outcomes here: The term "horror game" is so broad that it's meaningless, or it's a term that has mechanical weight more than it has aesthetic weight. If it's the former- sure, DBD is a horror game, but everyone saying it should be scarier/should go back to being scary are still wrong. If it's the latter, then there's no way that DBD counts. It's an action cat-and-mouse game with the occasional (often accidental) jumpscare- if it ever counted, it definitely doesn't now.
(I don't much care what articles talking about a game say about its genre, by the way, I've seen far too many refer to Borderlands as "post-apocalyptic" for that.)
Honestly- if you are of the opinion that any game which uses horror iconography is a horror game, I'm totally willing to let that be the end of the conversation. No sense arguing over a simple difference in definition, after all.
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Not really- these are just little tweaks thrown in alongside the big stuff, all of those killers are likely still in the metaphorical line to get some proper, actual changes.
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You've got the problem backwards- survivors are not too fast, nor is their ability to run forever a problem. The only reason things like the W meta work is because map layouts aren't particularly well balanced, and because the killer's time is incredibly valuable so even wasting a minute is devastating.
If the game played a little slower and fewer maps had terrible setups for the killer, this problem would virtually disappear.
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@BlueMeansDeep said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2568302#Comment_2568302
Survivors still have to risk being grabbed as an instadown, this is something that actually requires timing and an interesting dynamic.
Genuine question to you:
What do you think should be done? I’m encountering camping a lot more post MMR because it’s all about kills. Should a game mechanic be changed, a perk added, or MMR changed? What’s the solution to make the game more healthy.
For the record: That's not giving up anything, that is just a mechanic in DBD, the killers are the only ones giving anything up in this suggestion.
As for what to do, it's a really tricky and difficult situation to fix. As this thread's proven, at least partially, it's difficult to find a solution that doesn't make things much harder for the killer even when they're doing nothing "wrong". Rather than actively penalising the killer, I'd probably look towards making some version of Kindred basekit so solo-q players can know facecamping is happening sooner, and from there... it's tough. Maybe some extra bloodpoints for camped survivors so they at least get something, that's one thing I'd wholeheartedly support.
It's not an easy thing to fix, and I doubt a bunch of randoms on a forum are going to stumble across the right system.
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@BlueMeansDeep said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2568221#Comment_2568221
How is it not? Both sides give up something.
Sincere, genuine question: What are survivors giving up in this situation?
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@Aneurysm said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2568225#Comment_2568225
I mean that purple addon that shows you the killer is very strong
True! Honestly, they're so underused that I kinda don't remember what all of them do. It'll be nice to maybe see more of them for a little variety in what items survivors bring, if they do end up used more.
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Reworked, adjusted, paired with an anti-offering that lowers the chance of a specific realm, nerfed, any other solution would be a better idea than just straight up removing them.
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I wonder whether people will try and make use of the Key's primary function now? It's not that strong, but I could see it fitting into some aura-reading builds or something.
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@BlueMeansDeep said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2568185#Comment_2568185
In those situations you can still attack, it’s a happy medium.
That's... not a medium. It's a straight downgrade for literally no reason, that makes the killer's game substantially harder when they aren't even doing the thing this was supposed to tackle.
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@BlueMeansDeep said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2568167#Comment_2568167
But she can’t camp someone to death with zero counter, that’s the issue with Bubba.
Okay?
That's not really relevant to the topic, which is disabling powers near a hook. There are reasons to be near the hook that aren't camping- someone's looping you there, or you've got a three-gen, or the map's just pretty small and you're close by even when you're doing something completely different. Why should the killer's power be disabled in those situations?
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@BlueMeansDeep said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2568157#Comment_2568157
So is spirit powerless the entire match since she only has M1? I’m still failing to see how any downside of changing it to my suggestion is worse than the current MMR exploitation strategy to camp for kills. Even with prove thyself, you can’t do all 5 gens before the killer has camped someone to death and with NOED they can guarantee two kills. This is why Bubba is so easy to rank high up with MMR, the system is broken.
...Spirit would be powerless if she couldn't use Haunting, which is why her only damage type being M1 doesn't matter. A better example would be a Trapper who's put down all his traps- which kinda shows why it'd be a problem to disable powers close to a hook, since yes, he very much is powerless.
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The reason is basically what's been gone over already- not every reason to be near the hook is camping, and if survivors know you're powerless near a hooked survivor, they'll exploit it. And rightly so- it'd be a safe zone where they're in considerably less danger, they'd be insane not to use that to their advantage.
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I'm really going to miss it. It was a really strong map for some of the killers I like playing, and it had one of the more unique layouts...
I'm hoping they reuse the bones of it to make a new map that plays very similarly, personally.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2567878#Comment_2567878
Circle of healing vs 3-gen, you just can't win that. You will have to commit and you will lose that gen for it.
Depends on killer. I am sure it will be fun shooting range for Huntress...
But territorial killers and Hit&Run just can't be used against that.
I am going to play Plague a lot.
Sure you can. Bring methods of inflicting Broken, or bring things to inflict Exposed, or bring instadown killers...
Sure, hit and run can't be used against it, but that just means you have to adjust your tactics to react to what's in the game. That's generally how games function. These are going to be strong perks but they're not going to be busted, and even if they are, they need to be tuned down, not ruined and gutted to the point of worthlessness by making them limited-use.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2567862#Comment_2567862
"They should not be breakable permanently, because that's not the point of them."
There is no point in running across the map and leaving gens for it, when it can be done again on same totem. Sure, you don't wanna search for new totem. I think it is lazy, but sure. Then at least give it cool-down, so survivor can't just stand behind wall and do it again in 16 seconds when killer leaves. If you want to stay 1 minute there waiting to do it again, then be my guest.
Circle of healing is self-care + we'll make it as free perks for every other survivor. 24 m range is still good and it's even more broken on multi-layer maps.
Cooldown isn't the worst idea in the world, but it's an overstatement to say it's a huge necessity. If you as the killer notice a survivor continually hanging around to relight a boon, then first of all, they aren't on a generator- and second of all, you know they're there and can be hunted down if you've got the time.
It's not a case of not wanting to search for a new totem. I don't want anything on that side- I play killer lol. It's about what this mechanic is trying to achieve, which is to provide a single spot on the map where survivors are continually returning. If they're going back to that totem again and again, you know where they are and you can harass them.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2567853#Comment_2567853
It's not really same downside.
1 use vs 5 uses.
Right now, it's 1 vs infinite. Undying was broken, but this is fine...
There is no point destroying boon unless it is next to the hooked survivor, or gen.
All that it would do is, that you would have to make some effort in using it properly.
Why would Inner strength be better for solo? All survivors see where boon totem is located anyway.
Plaything nor NOED can overwrite Boon totem for some unknown reason, so there is not really a point in keeping that totem there to a killer.
They see where the boon is IF there is a boon, so I guess Inner Strength is more consistently usable since you don't have to rely on a teammate bringing that perk? It's not much, but hey, it's something.
I actually agree that Plaything and NOED should snuff a boon if they need to, that's pretty much my only problem with the mechanic as it stands. With that changed, boons as a mechanic will be in a very solid spot.
The thing is that Boons are not Hexes. It makes sense for Hexes to be one use- they're map-wide and they're supposedly very strong effects that directly affect the core gameplay. Boons are limited-range utility buffs, and again, they're supposed to drag survivors to the same spot over and over so that the killer can catch them out of position- or at least, that's supposed to be the way you play around them as a killer. If they're limited use, they do not serve that function, and they're a momentary annoyance to get out of the way, like eating old DS early. They should not be breakable permanently, because that's not the point of them.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2567801#Comment_2567801
"it's two, maybe three times use, because of how totem spawns work. That still ends up being a chore for everyone involved."
Yeah, others can destroy your totems. So it would work like other perks with same system.
Difference is, that here everyone will know you have that perk and everyone can use it to heal.
There is absolutely no reason to use Inner Strength compare to Circle of Healing.
Infinite for everyone vs 5 max only for you.
Won't argue that it makes Inner Strength a little outdated and useless- still kind of useful for solo, but yeah, Inner Strength is now outclassed and might need some tweaks.
But yeah, no, Boons shouldn't automatically have the same downsides as Hexes if the design doesn't warrant it- which it doesn't. They're not designed to work the same way, they shouldn't have the same downsides.
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I'm looking forward to it- the good far, far, far outweighs the one or two bad things being introduced, so this is overall going to be a massive net positive for the game.
Though, I do anticipate one or two bugs sneaking their way in. It's practically tradition at this point.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2565819#Comment_2565819
You could just find new totem?
Right now there is no point with leaving gens / chase for it.
It would still be better Inner Strength...
You could do that a maximum of four times, assuming no other teammate has a boon or wants to cleanse a totem to use Inner Strength, Clairvoyance, or any other reason they'd want to cleanse a totem.
So, instead of it being single use, it's five times use- and let's be realistic, it's two, maybe three times use, because of how totem spawns work. That still ends up being a chore for everyone involved, and doesn't fulfil the core idea of being a spot on the map survivors want to return to, since they'd constantly be pushed somewhere else.
Boon Totems should not be breakable. It undercuts the core idea, and since the core idea is a pretty damn good one, it shouldn't be undercut.