jesterkind
jesterkind
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@Kalinikta said:
When you play a game, even casually does not mean you simply throw up your hands at the start and go, now destroy me!
People confuse the idea of wanting to win, or at least have a chance of winning and not being completely demolished being mutually exclusive with being casual. Just because people want a match where even if they aren't being 100% efficient, with the best perks, items, addons, offerings, etc. Does not mean that they are wanting to have zero chance of winning. They might be fine with losing a match, but that doesn't mean that they want that to be the only possible out come.
It is a different type of game, it is how the match goes rather than just the outcome. Even if you are competitive, losing is part of a game and each person seeks to have a challenge at their own level. There are actually very little people that just always want to crush each and every single game, true competitive players seek worthy opponents that can give them a run for their money.
Most people simply want a chance to win, some in a more casual mindset and some with a more competitive one.
The sticking point there is that if you're going in with the intent to try and win, that's not casual, that's you approaching the game on a competitive level. I absolutely empathise with not wanting to bring the same specific build over and over again, but neither MMR nor the concept of playing casually enter that problem at all- that's an overall balance issue with the game.
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I do think they should at least allow new characters to start with three perk slots unlocked, not just one, so you can at least attempt to learn them with just their teachables.
The system needs an overhaul in general, but that'd be an excellent stopgap measure to ease the burden while something new is crafted.
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@Nayru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2567721#Comment_2567721
you misunderstand, you find out you can screw around when you get 2-3 hook states (or god forbid more) in the first minute of the game with nobody on a gen
this is a bit of an exaggeration but by the end of your first chase you generally have an idea of what the doomsday clock is set to, and ever since sbmm as with the pig's rather oppressive addon, the timer is almost always tampered with
if you start out screwing about with a bit of a meme build you never really know what you're going to get but in sbmm it's a large quantity of rating loss that will still have you going against 'hold m1 until they force me to deny the grab' gamers for far longer than you'd expect
So it's less about going into the game with casual mindset, and more about finding that they don't have a huge stomp early on that allows them to goof off anymore?
Hmm... I suppose I can see where they're coming from, even if I don't agree.
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@Nayru said:
survivors stuck in low-end mmr with potato teammates that get them killed constantly since killers are very favoured at low skill play
killers at mid+ mmr getting significantly more consistent survivors that've figured out to hold m1 on a gen if killer isn't imminently threatening them
either way, the capacity to screw around and the fun has drained for a lot of people, even if before's matchmaking was just a partial filter for low-end players and very inconsistent generally from my pov of playing both sides (far more survivor now though.. sheesh) before was generally far more tolerable
I suppose I empathise with that, but if you're screwing around surely that means you're accepting that you're probably going to lose? That was the case before SBMM too, after all, I don't see how that's changed at all. Hell, the solution to this problem is also completely separate from MMR, so I suppose that people just aren't correctly identifying the source of their problems? I'd believe that.
@GuyFawx said:
casual means a game where your not sweating it the moment a team member goes down.
But why would you start sweating if you don't care about winning and you're just there to have fun?
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@D3spair said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2567677#Comment_2567677
On the Survivors video they did say “Most killers move faster than survivors, so running in a straight line will prove futile.”. I want the videos to be at least honest.
Dear god, don't start that argument again.
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I mean, apex predators don't always get the kill. Nature's a pretty brutal place.
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I mean this in the nicest possible way, but it really sounds like you should stop playing. It can't be good for your mental health to continue playing something that makes you this angry, and if you're not having fun, at the very least I'd suggest considering taking a brief break from the game to cool off?
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I think you're partially right. I think killers who complain about the game "not being casual" now need to accept that, if you play casually but well, you're going to get two kills, and if you want more kills than that you can't play casually.
Granted, I think the system needs a little work to cement that, but that's the goal and that's what killers should be thinking about.
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@Seiko300 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2561030#Comment_2561030
The game is horror and it's a ludicrously foolish idea drummed up by certain members in the community that Dead By Daylight somehow isn't a horror game.
There is nothing NOT horror about being chased by a serial killer. There is nothing not horror about being placed in a powerless position where you must run for your life, or die. There is nothing not horror about the inclusion of prominent villains from well established films and franchises within the horror genre like Michael Myers, Freddy Krueger, Leatherface, and more. There is nothing not horror about having a hook thrust through your shoulder as you are left to hang to be sacrificed to an ancient Godlike being that is the source of evil. There is nothing not horror about the lovecraftian entity: a primordial interdimensional being which preys on the hopes, fears, and powerful emotions of entire worlds plunging them into madness, chaos, and anarchy.
It is undeniable that Dead By Daylight is a horror game. There is zero reason to see it as anything else, and the arguments for why it might not be horror are entirely frail and anecdotal at best.
Now is Dead By Daylight a scary horror game? Did you ever even stop to consider that not everything that is horror is scary? That the horror genre is not always exclusively synonymous with the word "scary"?
To be fair what is and what is not scary is entirely subjective in the first place. I myself am absolutely terrified of snakes- I cannot stand them, regardless of shape, size, color, all snakes are scary to me- and even if I see the tiniest of garden snakes slithering through the grass I will bolt in the opposite direction. In the few instances where I've approached snakes: I tense up, my hands shake, my heart races, my breathing quickens, and I am entirely on edge and most definitely uncomfortable. Even watching snakes in nature documentaries or on youtube makes me uneasy.
That being said, I recognize that some people like and even adore snakes- they keep them as pets and close companions. I even have friends that own snakes, although I've never set foot in the house of anybody that owns a snake, friend or otherwise.
Dead By Daylight is no less the same way, and I understand people who aren't scared of Dead by Daylight- I myself am not particularly afraid either. Although I remember fondly of a time of when I was scared of the game. I remember scariest match I ever played was the very first match I played against Michael Myers- who was the first killer with a reduced terror radius and could just run up to you and slash at you with a kitchen knife without a word or warning.
But it's important to remember that after hundreds much less thousands of hours of anything- obviously you're not going to be scared anymore. Veterans of the game are more interested in the strategy and the mechanics of the game than we are in being scared all the time. That's fine well and good, but equally that doesn't make it any less outrageous to say that those horror elements flat out don't exist. You tell me the next time you've got somebody two feet taller than you chasing you in the isolated night with a machete or an axe that you aren't scared.
Hi there! Weird wordwall to make at me because it seems like you've got the spirit and are just confused on a few specific words being used, but I'll clarify all the same: Dead By Daylight is a game that utilises the horror genre's aesthetics and atmosphere, but it is not a horror game in the sense of being a game with mechanics designed to scare the player. Amnesia is a horror game, Alien Isolation is a horror game, and Dead By Daylight is a cat-and-mouse asymmetric game that uses horror aesthetics.
There is no responsibility for DBD to be scary, because it's not a horror game. It's the difference between watching A Nightmare On Elm Street, and seeing someone dressed as Freddy Krueger for a costume party.
Hope that clears up your confusion and prevents further wordwalls on unsuspecting posters!
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@Bran said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2566182#Comment_2566182
The survivor can see the hatch so already has the advantage on finding it.
The killer cannot physically defend 2 doors and the hatch without additional help.
It's won't be luck based. The survivor will be able to do it
This whole change idea is basically just a free escape for the last survivor if the killer doesn't know where they are.
Whether they can defend it or not has FAR more to do with luck of where they spawn, it's totally possible to defend some setups.
The killer will know where they are, or at least will have plenty of information to guess- they're going to be in one of three areas. Most of the time, when the hatch is closed, that's GG- it's a guaranteed loss for the survivor. What's wrong with a perk (that's useless for the rest of the game, mind) helping to make that a little less certain?
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Haddonfield can at least be played pretty decently by some killers, Backwater Swamp just sucks for everyone. Too damn dark, too damn big, too many annoying structures.
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@Bran said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2566177#Comment_2566177
As I said. In most situations, the survivor escapes.
Most situations where they're the last person alive, the hatch is found and closed, and they have the time to go re-open it without the killer finding and interrupting them?
Yeah, I'm okay with that. The hatch and keys have been nerfed into the ground, I'm totally fine with a second-chance for escaping through the hatch now that only the last guy can do it, especially when it's this dependant on luck.
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@Bran said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2566152#Comment_2566152
It's free. If I you use the perk to use it, it costs nothing.
Most perks can use the whole "if it helps it helps, if it doesn't aw well" approach.
The perk replaces keys and in most cases the survivor would escape.
Well... yeah. In that case, any perk you use costs nothing and is free. If that's your point of objection, you're entitled to your opinion, but I strongly disagree that it matters at all.
It's such a niche and conditional effect that I really don't see why it's a problem that the effect is useful if you ever get to use it.
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@JawsIsTheNextKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2566077#Comment_2566077
That's interesting. What if the killer squishes a boon totem after the gens are done, will that activate Noed?
If so, it might make sense for survivors to leave the dull totem alone and come back and cleanse it if Noed is in play.
My understanding is that the killer would have to squish the boon just before the last generator is finished, otherwise NOED won't spawn. Which is a possibility, but that also isn't really making NOED stronger since the killer has to guard a totem and savvy survivors will know that's where NOED spawned.
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@Bran said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2565302#Comment_2565302
I just don't like the idea of having more ways for survivors to escape. It's free because you don't have to get a key and it lets you see the hatch..very free escape.
I wouldn't call this free at all. It only works if you're the last player alive, and even if it does work, it's a perk slot that does nothing until the very end of the game.
Think of it not as an escape necessarily "earned" but an escape "banked". If it comes in useful, great, it saves you having to rely on finding a key. If it doesn't... well, you never needed it to begin with and so it doesn't matter how "free" it is.
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@JawsIsTheNextKiller said:
Once Boon totems are out, survivors will not be cleansing so Noed will be even more powerful.
NOED can't spawn on a boon totem, so all survivors have to do is cleanse one dull totem if they don't want it to spawn, assuming four boons are up. While that's not that likely, it's about as likely as all five dull totems being broken, so NOED is going to be in the exact same spot.
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For the record, that first concept isn't a win, it's neutral. Hatch escapes don't count as a win or a loss for either side.
Anyway- an MMR system should always measure the specific player, not the team. I'd be on board for it having a little bit of nuance to try and track how much you helped the team out, though.
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I've never heard of Propnight so I can't speak for that one, but I have seen footage of VHS and I don't think that game is going to have any impact on DBD's playerbase because it seems like a pretty significantly different game.
In order to be effective competition (which btw it's wildly overblown how important that is) I'm of the opinion that a game should play similarly to DBD, which VHS only barely seems to. Seems like the "survivor" experience is vastly different and the "killer" experience is only kinda similar.
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@theblimp said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2565797#Comment_2565797
What is the reason for this being a terrible idea.
Boon totems being something the killer can break would mean they're ultimately completely insignificant. The survivor puts it down, the killer breaks it, nobody got to interact with the fun mechanic for any longer than it takes for the killer to go step on it. It wouldn't be a safe haven for survivors that draws them away from generators and puts them out of position in exchange for utility buffs, it'd be one annoying chore for the killer to juggle on top of everything else the killer has to deal with.
I think people are way too caught up on these being "survivor hex totems", which they aren't. They're not supposed to function the same way.
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While facecamping is incredibly annoying when you happen to be the one on the hook, everyone pointing out that a fix which doesn't penalise killers playing fairly would be incredibly hard are completely correct. You can't base it on distance, because sometimes you need to be by the hook- maybe a survivor is looping you there, or maybe you're on Midwich/The Game and you aren't actually within easy stopping distance of the hook but you're "near" it because you're on the floor beneath it, things like that.
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Currently B, will stay in B after the changes.
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Obviously not, it's a terrible idea on the same level of "just delete them lol".
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Even if it weren't a mix-up as Orion's explaining, this isn't a case of them saying something inaccurate, so that's irrelevant. As has been exhaustively explained, what they said in that video is accurate for the context of what they're explaining, which is all it has to be.
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@Rey_512 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2564622#Comment_2564622
What’s wrong simply excluding an inaccurate statement?
I already addressed this before by providing a condensed version of what they could have said to make their guide a little more accurate, but maybe you didn’t read all of my posts.
I’m not going to repeat myself any longer nor go back and forth with folks that fail address perfectly good points.
They've all addressed your point, because the video is a beginner's guide providing a simplified understanding of the game's very baseline mechanics. Your version may have worked as well, but the numerous comments and insinuations that BHVR "don't understand their own game" or are somehow displaying ignorance because of that one cherrypicked quotes are absolutely embarrassing.
Your point has been addressed. You're the one ignoring perfectly good points.
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@Rey_512 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2564620#Comment_2564620
Goddamn, people are still commenting on this?
You got me there, after two pages of it being patiently described why this take is silly there's really little benefit to continuing to try and make the point.
I just can't resist, myself. It's a problem.
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@Rey_512 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2564122#Comment_2564122
Don’t say something that’s inaccurate and you won’t get called out for it.
Goddamn, you're still on this?
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This seems pretty reasonable, it wouldn't be too strong and would be pretty fitting. Almost like the key version of Jake's sabo perk.
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@Zozzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2564532#Comment_2564532
Well Haddon is the one map where this happened to me XD
Some of the basic loops have a locker on the outside wall after passing the pallet. If you walk through the door in shack they can get you.. Mothers dwelling -.-
Haddonfield is the one map where Head On is kind of a problem, I'd empathise with that, but it's one map and it's already a pretty bad one for killer.
There are spots on other maps you can make it work- Thompson House has a nice one, and the Red Forest maps have a few okay spots, but it's trivially easy to avoid them if you know you might get hit with Head On.
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@Zozzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2564502#Comment_2564502
Then you find yourself backing away from every locker... good luck winning chases when there is one on every loop.
Bro, on what map is there a locker every loop? Have you ever tried playing Huntress, sometimes there aren't any for miles when you need to reload.
Pretty much the only map where Head On is a problem even once you know about it would be... I dunno, Haddonfield?
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It is a little strange they weren't nerfed in the upcoming midchapter, but that doesn't mean it won't be coming. Myers needs far more work than what he's already getting, and iirc Blight didn't have many changes, so I think they just tossed a few quick and easy changes to those two killers to bundle in with the big patch, and they'll get to the more complex ones later?
Just a guess, though.
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2564500#Comment_2564500
Make it a common perk then and not a teachable. Though it still hurts the grind the same, why should new players need to buy things to better learn the game?
They don't, they have plenty of good perks available with the base game survivors. However, having something they're able to use in every DLC is a bonus, instead of some potentially cool-looking characters only having niche/difficult to use perks.
The grind isn't a problem because of DLC perks, it's a problem already.
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@Zozzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2564496#Comment_2564496
It is only a meme to a point... It is a weapon when used with coms.
I would much rather go against weaponised Head On than teams playing more efficiently, because at least Head On is funny and can be played around easily once you know it's in play.
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2564489#Comment_2564489
Should we have a beginner survivor perk as a teachable behind every new survivor release that requires purchase, though? Killers arguably don't. Just more clog in the bloodweb.
I'd argue every character having one beginner-friendly perk is actually better. No matter who they want to buy first, they'll have something they can actually use.
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Four Head On? That sounds like those survivors were memeing, that's probably a good thing.
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@Anara said:
For the beginners she is not worth buying.
For experimented players she could be interresting in my opinion.
Clairvoyance would be a pretty good perk for beginners, to be fair.
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It's a joke about the date of Halloween, relax.
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Honestly, all of these are excellent ideas- communication and knowledge in solo-q really is the biggest hurdle for balancing at the moment. The quick chat function especially would be difficult to integrate into the game's aesthetic, but a very very useful inclusion if they ever figured out how to do it.
I'd also like to put forward the classic "action icons next to portraits" ideas, so you know without Kindred if someone's doing something that'd prevent them from going for a save, that kind of thing.
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@Canas said:
Dead Hard should disable the survivor's ability to interact with the environment (no vaults, no pallet drops, no gentapping) for 3 seconds after dashing, that way it would become somewhat balanced and survivors wouldn't exploit it to extend loops with after already making a mistake.
Not a terrible suggestion, actually. It'd still be useful for dodging a hit, and it'd even still be useful for distance, but there'd be a bit more of a chance for a killer to get a hit if you use it that way.
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You don't? You can only realise that when they start teabagging at every pallet, lol.
It doesn't matter that much, there's almost always a weak link and dunking on cocky survivors is the most fun in the game.
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@Blazelski said:
This could be a good enough upgrade to Coulrophobia to make it a decent perk rather than basically a laugh, but it's not enough for Overwhelming.
However, Unnerving bringing back old Ruin seems quite inspired and simple code-wise. Seems genius to me at first thought.
I'm not sure- increased item use is pretty decent if you don't have to be on top of survivors to make it work, it'd definitely eat into medkits. Still, it may end up needing more.
Thanks, though! I think it'd be a pretty fun change.
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The Nurse is not overpowered, and does not need a nerf, but that doesn't mean she's fine where she is either. A match of Dead By Daylight that features the Nurse as the Killer is not a balance problem- she's insanely hard and anyone who can stomp with her has basically earned it by being that much better at the game than their opponents. She is not a problem because of that.
The problem is that she has kind of a chokehold on how good any given killer perk or baseline mechanic for killers is allowed to be, because anything only even decent on other killers could be utterly beastly on her. I'm not sure what to do about it, but I'd support a full rework to try and mitigate this problem.
I don't want to see her be any weaker. I want to see her no longer being a thorn in the side of ongoing game balance.
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The only real builds for Evil Incarnate are double iridescent addons, and Play With Your Food to try and counteract the speed debuff.
I actually got that achievement yesterday, and I would put it down almost entirely to the fact that I rolled Hawkins. Do you have any map offerings for that map? It's very very good for Michael in general tbh, but you've got a limited time to get that work done.
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Really want some more setup killers- I adore Trapper and I am relatively fond of Hag, and I do think there's more they can do in that vein, even if it isn't really "setup" so much as trapping areas quickly. Either one would be fantastic!
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@Legionair said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2564196#Comment_2564196
Survivor never has 0 infor at loops. and stuff they can see over has 0 mindgame. also spirit doesnt know where you are, her power makes you invis if you dont run, I have played against so many and since I play spirit it is so easy to play vs them. she has counterplay but newer/less experienced survs are so bad at mindgaming they call for nerfs because its "too hard"
Sure, lower-rank Spirits are easy to play around, but once you get someone that's actually good with her there's very very little you can do, and any time you escape her it's the result of a lucky guess, not outplaying her. She does know where you are- she has sound if you don't have Iron Will, and she has the scratch marks (or lack thereof if you stop) if you don't. That's more than enough.
I don't think there's much more to be said on this topic. The bottom line is: even taking the ridiculous assertion that she didn't need these nerfs at face value, people making out like Spirit's been killed are being silly. She's going to be fine.
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@Desh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2564194#Comment_2564194
If it's a balancing problem, then it's an MMR problem since that's the whole design of MMR. To balance players skill levels against each other so that you're in the same bracket. Also, negative to your claim. Before they kicked out the ranked system, I was doing niche builds on Rank 1 and my matches against Survivors were a lot more casual than they are now. That's not to say it was balanced before. I will admit that there were times I went against SWF death squads that absolutely destroyed me when I had my best on and times that I gone against absolute potatoes. BUT, the majority of my games were relatively even in skill level. Any mistake I made on my part, I suffered for but the game didn't end immediately by it depending on when it was made.
Now? I rarely get any casual plays. It's always against meta running groups where a majority of them appear to run comms based on how they move and play. And by your logic, it does need a casual mode. You said so yourself that this is a COMPetitive game. A lot of people want to do PvP and enjoy it without having to go balls to the wall just to secure 1-2 Kills if you're lucky. If every other PvP game is able to do it, then DBD can as well. This would probably solve the big queue issue right now too that a lot of people are experiencing since this MMR release.
Addressing the most important but also the simplest point first: "competitive" =/= "serious ranked-mode tryhard". Competitive just means you're competing against other players, even if it's a casual competitive game. That's why you shouldn't put too much stock in a loss- do you give half a damn when you lose in Mario Kart or Smash Bros? It's not that serious.
Anyway: I'm not saying that the balancing problem is completely independent of the MMR system, I'm saying that the fix for this issue doesn't involve changing the MMR system in any way - though I would like to see some improvements to that system where possible, those improvements not being in place aren't causing the problem, the game's balance problem areas at higher ranks is what's causing the problem.
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@Legionair said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2564171#Comment_2564171
for most killers, at a loop they rely on a survivor to make the mistake in order to get a hit because of how loops are set up, they do their best with red glow mindgames and moonwalking but ultimately its up to the survivor to mess up. some killers with a good m2 can still end a chase at a loop regardless but if survivors are good it will take a while. so IF the survivor did/didnt vault, IF they didnt instadrop the pallet, IF they didnt see you moonwalk, then they maybe get a hit/down unless you have Dead Hard. Spirit made survivors guess if she was going a certain way and make their predictions based off of where she last was etc, she mad SURVIVORS have to try to mindgame HER with scratchmarks etc.
That's not a mindgame, though? The reason mindgaming at loops works is because both parties are lacking information- you can't see the survivor and the survivor can't see you, hence why moonwalking and such sometimes works out for you and sometimes doesn't. With the Spirit, there is no mindgame- she knows where you are and you don't know where she is. Zero input from the survivor, they just make a guess and hope it works out.
Some specific killers being a little weak in chase doesn't justify the Spirit having zero counterplay beyond guessing, this is a weird point.
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@Desh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2564142#Comment_2564142
Not every match should be a hard loss or sweat fest either. If a player comes in to casually play (I.E bringing niche builds, non-meta, no slowdown perks, etc.), and gets repeatedly stomped by teams who are all running the stereotypical meta load outs and capping gens in under 5 minutes, there's a problem. That's not fun for anyone. If you enjoy playing hard, cool that's you. But not everyone wants to come home and tear their hair out after being on a losing streak. Especially when you go against toxic players.
That's why most games that are competitive have a quickplay (Non-Ranked) game and a competitive (Ranked) game. To separate the casual players from the players who take it seriously.
That's a balance problem, not an MMR problem, and it was the case before the MMR introduction too. You may see slightly fewer people goofing off in your games now, but the risk of bringing fun niche builds and getting stomped was always extremely real and this genuinely hasn't changed that beyond slightly adjusting the percent-chance of being ######### over.
This game doesn't need a casual mode because it's not the kind of game that works like a ranked mode either. This system doesn't need changing or reverting- the game just needs to be balanced so the meta isn't so overwhelmingly strong on both sides.
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Personally, I'm holding off on Prestige-ing even characters I want the cosmetics for just in case the new system would be less punishing. I've got retired offerings and such on some killers, I'm hoping I don't have to lose those with the new system.
I can't imagine they're going to remove the bloody cosmetics, so if there are new rewards I imagine they'd be on top of, not instead of, the current ones.
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@Legionair said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2564156#Comment_2564156
just like every other killer besides nurse being dependent on IF the survivor makes the wrong read to get a hit at a good loop
Could you elaborate? I'm not understanding your point, sorry.
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I've personally been playing him more, but that's kind of a coincidence, it's not influenced by the new movie- not seen that yet.