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gendoss
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@Idontknowtbh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2761676#Comment_2761676
That's why I think people are saying what's skill and what isn't.
Basing MMR on kills instead of hooks, would only promote more face camping and tunneling, getting more and more boring matches and eventually making players on both sides leave.
If all killers camp and tunnel to level up, they'll get to a point where they only find those survivors that are never caught and great at chases, leading to frustration from the killer (and leaving behind a good amount of pissed off survivors because they were the chosen ones over and over again and couldn't actually play) , I don't know, I'm tired.
But I don't think is a good idea overall.
I'd hate to hear the typical "get good" from either side, but we are not DBD gods out there and some would like to have a chance at playing than dying on first hook.
In a perfect balancing scenario we would have the game be based around kills but make camping (at least with Bubba) less rewarding for the killer. Then we would have a healthier game. It's too limiting to base the game around hooks but keep face camping as rewarding as it is. We should move forward with the balance, not keep it the way it is.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2761676#Comment_2761676
Camping isn't that rewarding by itself. It's the altruism of the Survivors that rewards camping
Well yes and no. If you just down someone in a somewhat timely manner, face camp them to death, and then squeeze out another camped kill with NOED after the gens finish you could theoretically tie even with 0 survivor altruism.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
It takes nearly no gaming prowess to camp a hook as Bubba, and if he kills 4 inexperienced players in a basement insidious play, whilst a similar level of players take on each other with Trapper as killer and he gets 3k, are we going to be saying the insidious Bubba is a better player? The Trapper made more effort, whilst Bubba basically had the DBD equivalent of a fishing trip.
It's a specific pair of scenarios , but I can't see how in that case a Bubba can be seen as more skillful. And in that case there are other areas where kills vs hooks isn't clear-cut.
I've said this a couple times in previous replies but I think that camping as Bubba should not be as rewarding as it currently is. Also if survivors are falling for Insidious Bubba then you are going against bad survivors.
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@Idontknowtbh said:
You can tunnel and camp and get more kills with one or two hooks than a killer that gets 8 hooks.
So, yes, hooks are higher skill than kills because it's the one vs. one that counts and kills are totally controlled by the killer.
Plus kills over hooks promotes the aforementioned camping and tunneling which is not fair on whichever survivor is unlucky enough to be first.
Well true, it does suck for the survivor that is being camped and tunneled but that's due to the design of the game itself, currently camping is too rewarding for killer and should be changed.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
Killing is not skillful. Hooking is not skillful. Doing Generators is not skillful. There's almost nothing "skillful" about the winning conditions of this game, the only way you can showcase skill in this game is during a chase, and chasing isn't even that hard
I can get behind this. At the end of the day a lot about "winning" isn't totally about skill but that's just a huge problem with the design of the game itself.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2761524#Comment_2761524
A Bubba will get at least 1 Kill guaranteed. Possibly a 2K with NOED. If a Killer gets 8 Hooks but 0 Kills, they are worse than a Bubba who just facecamped?
My solution to this is to make face camping as Bubba less rewarding. I think everyone can agree with that. Because at this point yes, you can "win" too easily using some strats.
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@Krimbar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2761588#Comment_2761588
I think the issue here is calling it 'skillful', it's very efficient, but I wouldn't call that the most skillful thing you can do in this game.
If you look at the survivor equivalent of repairing gens as fast as the game allows it and avoiding the killer at all costs, I wouldn't call that very skillful either, but very efficient and smart.
I guess in the same way as completely styling on your opponent in Tekken but still losing while your opponent sits and does the most boring strats of all time. At the end of the day a win is a win and if it's too easy to "win" in dbd then there are loads of other issues.
Your problem is that face camping and tunneling is too easy of a strategy that gives undeserved kills. I agree with that, it should be based less around camping and tunneling.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2761589#Comment_2761589
The problem there is that you're assuming a hard causal link between "low MMR" and "no idea what they're talking about".
The ability to analyse a game is completely, entirely separate from the ability to play it. You can be good at one and not the other- there's a slight correlation between the two, but it's nowhere near something you can assume just from seeing someone's MMR.
Also, y'know, the experiences of lower-rank players are still valid and it's still worth knowing what they struggle with so that it can be determined whether the teaching tools in the game need improving, if something actually does need to be changed, or if they just need to learn the right strats and counters.
I'll just say that in my opinion most games should be balanced around the higher level of play. In something like Tekken you're gonna get destroyed over and over and that's because the game isn't balanced around the average player or the lower skill level player. But it feels good to grind and eventually get good at the game, it's more healthy when it's balanced around the top level. I don't think it's inherently bad that a newer player would struggle because at some point you have to learn the game and get good at it to where you actually realize the real balance of the game.
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@Labrac said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2761588#Comment_2761588
So why do you believe kills are a good measure of skill then? If killers are "doing terrible" by 2 hooking everyone before killing, then should every killer just aim to tunnel survivors out of the game to be skillful?
In the current balance and meta yes you should aim to kill survivors in any way you can, be it camping, tunneling, or not at all. However you achieve it is valid.
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@Mister_xD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2761577#Comment_2761577
alright listen, you're gonna have to pick your poison here.
A: facecamping is too simple and easy to do, therefore kills alone dont actually say anything about an individuals skill level
B: kills are a great factor at determining an individuals skill level and therefore playing in the way i described above is actually very skillfull.
you cant have it both ways.
Face camping is too simple and easy to do but kills are more important than hooks. In my ideal balance scenario camping would be punished harder than it currently is, it's just a problem with the game but in general kills are worth more than hooks.
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@Labrac said:
So tunneling and camping are skillful? After all, a killer that tunnels one survivor the entire match and gets only 3 hooks on said survivor is way better than one who got 8 hooks and not a single kill because he wanted to play in a more enjoyable way according to you.
It shouldn't be but in the current meta it is. In tournaments the best strategy is to camp and tunnel. It is the most skillful play you can make sometimes but it shouldn't be cuz it's lame.
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@Mister_xD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2761550#Comment_2761550
... so you are saying that because facecamping is so strong and easy to do, kills are not a good indicator for skill currently?
No I'm saying that face camping is too strong and needs to be mitigated somehow (possibly with a basekit BT?).
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@Krimbar said:
Just touching on that last part there with the MMR system totally working thing.
Didn't the lead game designer also say that currently the system will match players together EVEN if it knows (or predicts) that the killer will lose that match, because of backfill issues and prioritizing queue times over fair MM.
Yes and they're fixing that. I did say that it was inconsistent because it totally is. Sometimes I destroy survivors when I probably wasn't supposed to.
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@Mister_xD said:
i can literally go and facecamp one guy to death, run Corrupt Intervention + Deadlock + No Way Out + NOED and get at least one more guaranteed kill that way.
am i a skilled player now?
am i better than that Hillbilly who hit sick curves around loops, only killed one person but had everyone else on deathhook?
So your problem should be with face camping being too powerful. If it's easy to be better than a Hillbilly who didn't camp then we should do something about face camping cuz I agree with that.
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@lauraa said:
Anyone with a pulse can take lethal pursuer on bubba, down a guy in 30 seconds, camp him out and still have time to NOED slap somebody on the way out. 2 hooks 2 kills, gg ez get gud do bones etc.
This system exists precisely because BHVR cant develop a system that has nuance or understands context.
Ok, if you're downing a survivor in 30 seconds with Bubba you are going against terrible survivors.
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@GannTM said:
So someone isn't good with Nurse because they get 2 kills with 9 hooks in one game? That's not a good argument.
No, the fact that they can't out kill a Bubba is why they'd be a bad Nurse.
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Awesome change. I expect it every single time as killer anyway and play like everybody has it so it should just be basekit already.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2761304#Comment_2761304
I disagree it's a bad argument.
I really don't want to go back to the olde days of the forums where people asked for a picture of where they stood in the game before wanting to take someones opinion seriously.
Well maybe you joined before 2019 because I started lurking in 2019 and posting in 2020. I never saw anybody say "send a pic of your rank". What I did see is people say "oh you're not in red rank so your opinion matters less" but I STILL see people say "I'm in high MMR blah, blah, blah, I have more authority". It never goes away. Just the fact that the game compares skills at all will make people say "I know I'm a good player so I know what I'm talking about". Should they take away fair matchmaking altogether because it creates toxic elitism?
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2761251#Comment_2761251
I'm saying they will be more toxic when it's shown. Again in the past people actually asked for a picture of your rank when you said something. That happened on these forums about the ranks this same forum mostly agreed were pointless.
Every game that compares skill is going to have toxic players. That's indeed how it is
And sadly while yes 95% of the reasons might be well intended it wouldn't be the first time the 5% of the ones who aren't ruin it for the rest. That's unfortunatly also just the way it is.
"And sadly while yes 95% of the reasons might be well intended it wouldn't be the first time the 5% of the ones who aren't ruin it for the rest. That's unfortunatly also just the way it is."
This is the point of the post. To say that they shouldn't hide the MMR because it's "toxic elitism", it's not. It's a really bad argument for why they want to hide it.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2761237#Comment_2761237
They seem to have a very different idea of skill than us anyway.
A facecamping Bubba who gets 3 Kills has more skill than a Nurse who 2K's with 10 hooks.
Well this is a completely different argument but what should a 2K be classified as? A killer win? How, 2 people got out. At some point you have to make a hard win condition, you can't base it all on hooks because at that point you could have 8 hooks with 4 escapes be a tie or something and that doesn't make any sense, how is 4 people escaping a tie?
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@Sonzaishinai said:
There was toxic elitism with the old matchmaking ranks where most people agreed that it didn't resemble skill at all.
Been a while but i remember people posting pics about their matches and getting completly shot down cause they were "only" green rank.
"Get to red rank and then you can talk"
Even today almost every time somebody wants to say something they feel the need to add "i am a high mmr player" even though they can't really know to enforce what they are saying.
So in a general sense I disagree. Having your mmr visible will definitely increase that elitisme.
So you're saying people will be toxic about it whether they can see it or not? At that point let people see it so they can see their improvement because currently you can't. Let alone every other argument for why you should be able to see it. Any game that compares skill is going to have toxic players, I'm sorry but that's how it is. It's not an excuse to hide it from people when 95% of the reason they want to see it is to see how good they actually are.
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@ThiccBudhha said:
I normally feel mmr is fine hidden, but in this game, people prefer to derank and DON'T want to be high mmr. Showing it might actually be an incentive to play out the matches and encourage killers to want to camp and tunnel to actually prove they are better than your average schmuck.
Yes, this too. The system in place actively incentivizes you to lose because why should you care what your MMR is, you can't see it. But that's a different argument.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2761198#Comment_2761198
You're arguing a different point now. Your post is saying "wanting to see your skill improve is not toxic", implying that the quote in the stream was about wanting to see your skill improve. It's not. That isn't what they're talking about.
Yes but you aren't getting the point. The point of the post is that by making your MMR invisible and calling wanting to know your MMR "toxic elitism" it makes 95% of the reason you want to see your MMR invalid because it's "toxic" to want to know your MMR.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2761185#Comment_2761185
That is irrelevant to the point, which is that the explanation given is not about seeing your skill improve.
As I just said that's all seeing your MMR is about now, people already assume everything. It wasn't even a problem back when grades were your actual rank, it happened but it happens in literally every other game too.
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@jesterkind said:
That clearly isn't what they meant by that and I have to believe you know it.
Simply wanting to see your skill improve isn't "toxic elitism", but having MMR be visible would lead to exactly what it leads to in other competitive games; those low on the ladder being excluded from conversations and told that their opinions don't matter. It already happens now and seeing MMR would make it worse.
Even if you want MMR to be visible it'll have to be with this in mind.
That happens regardless of it you see it or not. You see people make posts all day long about how they're in high MMR and they're opinion matters more. It literally changes nothing, all they're doing by making MMR invisible is taking away your ability to see your skill and improvement.
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@I_am_Negan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2760743#Comment_2760743
Yes you're right they are console upgrades but, the way the world is right now it's kind of hard to get your hands on one.
Eh I think at this point it's gotten a lot easier you just have to do a tiny bit more digging than usual. The PS5 has sold 10 million consoles already and the Xboxes are easier to get. But yes it isn't the easiest thing to do in the world.
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@Dennis_van_eijk said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2760743#Comment_2760743
I don't think that is the issue, at least not the biggest.
The thing is that they have said they make an optimization patch to bring all platforms to at least 60fps, and then everything went silent about that patch.
That is what pissed of many people as it were empty promises made in, i believe, 2019.
So far before even next gen console release dates were made.
I'm sure it's hard to get dbd running 60 FPS on a console that came out in 2013. It's possible but probably harder than you think it is. Especially for a game that has basically been needed to be recoded from scratch over the years and isn't a AAA company.
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@legrosporc69 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2760743#Comment_2760743
I swich to pc last year because i did not want the game to break my ps5 lol. The thing is that game should not tax old gen console like that and when you play certain killer or go in certain map the game was lagging a lot and that was before the twin chapter it only got worse if im not mistaken. A 2016 game should not need a 2021 console to be able to run specially with the low quality graphic this game have.
Well the game is not even close to what it was in 2016. Almost every map has been updated to 2020 standards. There are 191 perks that now do crazy things and have to synergize with each other on one map. What is your limit on when dbd should or shouldn't work? Should it work on an Xbox 360 or a PS2? At some point a game with 2020 standards of graphics is going to run slower on older hardware, that's just how it works.
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@TAG said:
Alrighty, folks. I've never really properly tried to grind the Rift (the closest was to get 2/3) pieces of the Pink Elephant costum). Anyone got any tips on how to grind it as efficiently as possible to get whatever cosmetics are up for grabs?
Just do the challenges and that's it. You don't even have to do both sides, I just do survivor and get it every time.
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I'm not a big fan of the skin. I wish it showed her full face and not have the mask.
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@Fobbo said:
Thats the reason i like to use save the best for last
I've wanted to use STBFL but I feel like trying to balance stacks and infection meter isn't worth it. Like you have to build them up independently of each other.
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@Bigbawi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2759494#Comment_2759494
That's either a lie or you're playing against complete beginners all the time (which I doubt) . Hexes don't usually last more than a couple of minutes and the more hex perks you use as a killer, the more you put yourself at a disadvantage. DH not only requires 0 skill but it's OP and cannot be removed from a game unlike a hex perk. Make DH a boon perk and we can at least compare them from this point of view and even then, boons are more OP than hexes as hexes can be destroyed completely yet boons can always be enabled again, there's no denying that survivors have most of the advantages in this game.
Yeah yeah, Ruin, Undying, and Devour Hope are bad and Dead Hard is good. Makes sense.
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They reset every week I think.
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@CrashMADDS13 said:
Classic nemmy would he great but i REALLY want is a stars Jill from re1.
Why not both.
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I actually like using the zombie mutation rate increase addons so I can just kill the zombies when I see them doing nothing. It's a nice little thing when the zombies just get stuck.
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Literally everybody would just use Sprint Burst instead.
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@Mringasa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2759494#Comment_2759494
Hex Perks can be taken completely out of a game. Dead Hard cannot. They don't really equate. Make Dead Hard a Boon, and then you can compare its effects to those of Ruin, Undying, or Devour. High risk, high reward, and the ability for Survivors to remove the Perk completely from play.
Yeah but with hex perks even though they can go fairly quickly as long as you used them it was worth it. If I just regress 1 or 2 gens with Ruin and then it gets cleansed it was so worth using. There's also the fact that the survivors have to spend time actually cleansing the totems which is adding to time that survivors aren't on gens, the only downside to hexes is that you have to use a lot of them but it's still worth using. The effect of them is felt throughout the entire game, not just when they're up.
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@ASurvkillivorer said:
does scourge PR impact Ruin?
Yes it works with Ruin. So does Jolt and any other perk that instantly regresses gens without needing to kick them.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2759031#Comment_2759031
You have to ask yourself, do perks like Ruin, Undying, Tinkerer, NOED require skill? These powerful perks simply work automatically and tilts the game massively in favor of the killer for simply playing the game normally.
At least Dead Hard requires precise timing to use properly. Although it is not difficult to use, in some cases it does require a lot of experience of knowing when to use it.
I started playing killer again recently and the amount of times I won just due to Ruin, Undying, and Devour is disgusting. Using Dead Hard as a survivor doesn't automatically win games for you but those hex perks can completely win a game for a killer.
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Eh I think boons are strong but not overpowered by any means. I think it's good the survivor meta has shifted at least a little bit and you can still disable the boons and it wastes survivor's time. Strong medkits have always existed and whenever I play survivor I just bring a good medkit and don't even boon at all.
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NOED and Decisive Strike
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@SunsetSherbet said:
All licensed characters have little in skins because it requires licenser approval. Capcom needs to sign off on any costumes. It's not as simple as "we have an idea, let's do it." with Original characters.
I know but they've shown that they can get permission for even original cosmetics like the blight one. They also have gotten the rights to use cosmetics from other games like RE4 and RE5.
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@Bardon said:
I do admit I'd love to see T3 Nemmy do a bit more than just "+1m range", given the speed burst from the first hit.
I think overall he needs to be less punishing on a miss. Just 3 hits to down 1 survivor can take so long and if you miss once or twice because of his janky hitbox you've wasted way too much time on one chase.
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@Zachcjjj said:
as someone who plays alot of m2 only neme your best bet is to just try and get everyone infected early and let them burn thru vaccines and then when they are all infected they cant take hits
Yeah I feel like I can only play him when I have Marvin's Blood and Broken Recovery Coin.
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@Sludge said:
"I don't think so. I actually just became a killer main the other day because I finally realized how good killers have it. Not even joking."
yet you've already made 2 topics complaining about playing killer
Not complaining about killer, complaining about my killer MMR. I still realize that I'm losing because I'm just not as good as these teams although I 4K sometimes. The fact that I can win against these teams at all just shows how good killer has it.
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@lauraa said:
Considering that Nemesis needs time to infect, it may be worth looking into Starstruck to get some of that time back by skipping health states
I have it but I'm just afraid of it never working and survivors just hiding or running across the map when it happens.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2759135#Comment_2759135
I more or less agree with TB. I hardly ever play survivor so the few times I have my timing is terrible on vaults and I miss skill checks sometimes. But even I’m better than actual new players to the game because at least I know to do gens, try and avoid the killer, and try and rescue someone before they die. And to watch for the exit doors and head that direction when the gens finish. And even though my loop timing as a survivor is awful I at least understand the concept of using vaults and dropping pallets to slow the killer down and know I can at a minimum hold forward to delay the inevitable longer.
So yeah, even if like me you never play survivor but you do play a fair amount of killer, you still are better than people who are relatively new to the game entirely.
I've been playing survivor constantly for 4 years and I just got queued up with a survivor who I teamed up with the other day. The game thinks my new killer is as good as someone who I played survivor with recently. My killer is not even close to that level and I could barely get a hit on 1 person that game.
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@ThiccBudhha said:
Slowdown builds are not really strong against good survivors. That was efficient pre mmr when you had a potato mixture.
Regardless, you might actually be that mmr and overestimate the average player. Most people who place this game are very sus. So if you aren't sus, automatic high mmr. Simple as that.
Also I'm using Ruin, Undying, and Devour. Ruin actually regresses gens like crazy and I can see it happening. Most games I get to 3 stacks of Devour it just isn't enough, the gens get done way too quickly even with this slowdown.