dugman
dugman
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@Aurelle said:
Or just rework the map to be more balanced. No need to remove content because of a map.
Honest question since I haven’t played that map all that much, what are the balance issues in RCPD? I know there’s a couple a safe pallets, but there’s also mindgameable ones so it never really struck me as all that unfair. Most of the problems I have on that map stem from me getting lost. 😄
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I really should try using that one, I love aura add-ons. I just always feel, though, like if I’m not putting head traps on a bunch of people I’m not playing Pig right. 😄
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I actually kind of think RCPD is a neat map, even though I don’t really know my way around it very well. Honestly I like playing on that map more than the corn maps!
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- One survivor complained I was “camping the gens” when the survivors got themselves into a 3-gen situation.
- Another called me a “tunneler” after I got a 12 hook 4k with Legion. (Even the other survivors laughed at the guy who said that 😄)
- One idiot complained I was trash for “using NOED”. I had killed all four of them before the generators were done so NOED never would have triggered. Also, I wasn’t using NOED, I was using Thanatophobia and the icons are similar.
- Back when we had Ranks, I had a red rank 1 player running all meta perks on a team that burnt a Hadenfield offering call me a “tryhard” because I Mori’d his friend using my Ghostface with random perks (I don’t remember which ones, other than I think one was Deerstalker.)
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@Kalinikta said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2689743#Comment_2689743
Yet you left out conveniently their last sentence:
"I play as killer once in a while so I don't know if these numbers are relatively good."
To display whether those numbers are actually relatively good, you need to account for the full experience of people as killer. Especially when they indicate that they in most of their games don't get over 4 hook states. Therefore if I cherry pick my games and state that I get max 8 hooks, then it undermines their ability to assess the relative performance against that of others, which is also part of the topic.
You are not contributing to the topic, you are actually derailing it by acting as if you know the intentions of the OP. You don't answer their question, because you don't know the answer of how many hooks you have at the end of a match? Stop trying to tell other people that are actually trying to engage with the OP on their query about how they are not answering it properly, while refusing to give your own answer to their question.
My answer is mine to give, if you want to give yours... feel free to do so. Yet if you are unable to word your own answer... you are hypocritical to assume you can word mine.
I literally gave my answer above. If you don’t like me explaining how you misread a post that’s you’re problem, not mine,
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@JeanCharpentier said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2689480#Comment_2689480
- Time to gather datas to buff the Nurse and nerf the Pinhead ? Yea okay.
- Yes CoH, others can be strong but they are kind of fair.
FYI Pinhead was released in September and they just did a balance pass on him on this last patch three months later, tweaking a bunch of his add-ons and fixing Chain Hunt hitting survivors solving the box. (Nurse was released long before they implemented their current testing schedule, FYI.)
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2689480#Comment_2689480
Isn't kinda funny that CoH is for every other survivors too, but blessing + healing is still faster than self-care?
Most annoying thing about CoH for me is that everyone can self-heal, but yeah it's 100% BS with medkit.
Yeah, it’ll be interesting to see what they do with Circle of Healing in their balance pass.
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@Kalinikta said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2689467#Comment_2689467
Subject line:
HOW MANY HOOKS DO YOU HAVE AT THE END OF THE MATCH?
They also indicate in their post:
"I have between 3-4 hooks in most of my games and 1 if the survivors are really good."
"I play as killer once in a while so I don't know if these numbers are relatively good."
If you read my post and those of others in the responses, we respond based on the full context of the question and not to a cherry pick only our worst games to create a false sense of belief whether or not these numbers are relatively good. I even stated exactly what type of performances based on the hooks played would be considered bad, decent, good and amazing.
Who exactly are you to dictate how we respond to a message with a clear subject line and seeking an indication on whether their performance is relatively good or not. If they want to figure that out we have to give them a true reality figure based on our experiences and not cherry picking.
Where exactly is your response to their question and contribution to this topic?
I literally quoted the entire original post, I’m not sure how you think I “cherry picked“ anything.
And yes, I read your post, my point was you apparently just read the subject line and didn’t read the post itself and assumed they were asking asking a different question than what they actually asked. I’m not dictating anything, I’m just saying you didn’t read their post.
And that’s my contribution to the topic, clearing up a misconception that some people like yourself have about the question that was asked. I don’t know the answer to the actual question itself so I didn’t speculate on that.
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2689480#Comment_2689480
The boon system as a whole isn't fine though and this is coming from someone who switched to playing survivor and only runs boons. Boons as whole are in need in some restrictions on how many times they can be relit. The amount of time spent blessing is a totem is negligible and when bless over a hex a minor time sink at best. Sure one person isn't doing gens, but the time investment isn't such a waste that it sways the outcome of games out of survivors' favor unless absolutely no one else is doing gens.
Also, don't sell Shadowstep short. Info blackout is a lot stronger than people give it credit for, but unlike circle of healing he doesn't harm a shut down a playstyle.
I disagree, Shadowstep is a good perk but it’s not game breaking. Circle of Healing is the one that’s the problem.
And no, Boons and Hexes don’t need to work the same way, there’s absolutely nothing wrong in principle with Boons being resettable provided the individual Boon perks are balanced around that. You don’t need to change the entire Boon system just to balance Circle of Healing, or even Shadowstep if that were too powerful. All you have to do is adjust their specific effects (i.e. slow Circle of Healing’s speed down, or adjust the radius of effect for Shadowstep or how much or often it hides scratches or auras).
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@Mooks said:
God I hated how the Greek Collection cosmetic for Jeff turned out to be just another Leatherjacket recolor. So much potential wasted..
On a tangent I’m sad Ash never got a Prince of Thieves skin in the Greek set. (Yeah, I know it’s technically a different character, but still, how great would that skin be? 😄)
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There’s two types of “not fun” complaints, one being more valid than the other
- A few things in DbD’s design are inherently annoying or boring. For example I don’t enjoy playing survivor because 1/3 of the game is spent lying on the ground or being on a hook doing nothing. Or I don’t enjoy playing Nurse because I can’t stand staring at my feet half the match. If I complain about those things not being fun, I’m saying I wish the devs had designed them differently and it’s why I don’t play them.
- Some people complain opponents are doing something wrong when they “tunnel or camp or hide, etc” because it’s “not fun”. Those complaints are mainly just sour grapes from sore losing. I’ve had survivors complain that I was doing something wrong for “camping the gens”, and that I “tunneled” them after a 12 hook game with Legion, for instance. Blaming the opponent for just playing the game and trying to win just comes across to me as sour grapes. Yeah, losing is “less fun” than winning, but learn to lose with some dignity.
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I watched VHS gameplay and am not really interested, it looks more like an Overwatch style shooter, and if I wanted to play a game like that I’d just play Overwatch instead.
And Elden Ring has absolutely no similarity to DbD at all, I’m not even sure why it’s a comparison point?
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@Sonzaishinai said:
You chain tiles.
Simular to trapper trapping the pallet she slows down a lot setting up her birbs so you can make it to the following tile
If you have a good understanding of when her birds dissapate you can eventually even circel back to the loop you started at.
People refer to this as hold w against her ussualy
Which is a bit of a misuse of the phrase hold W, since chaining tile’s isn’t really the same thing as just running forward for distance. Chaining tiles is more like doing a figure 8 between two or three tiles than running in one direction, and it takes more general game awareness to pull off.
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- FYI they currently usually do a balance pass about three months after a character releases, presumably because they want time to gather data and let the meta around a new character stabilize a bit. So we’ll probably see a Mikaela balance patch in the next midchapter patch in January or so would be my guess, including her Boons
- When you complain about “Boons” I’m assuming you’re just complaining about Circle of Healing since the consensus seems to be that’s the overpowered one and not nearly as many people complain about Shadowstep or Exponential. It’s important to distinguish between them as individual perks because the Boon system as a whole seems fine, the imbalance is essentially exclusive the one perk Circle of Healing that should probably have its healing speed reduced.
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I guess Victor counters hold W, you can’t last long against him if you just run in a straight line. Twins are a bit weak against anti-slugging measures though.
Also Hag is anti-hold W to some extent, depending on how well she plans her traps out.
And Bubba somewhat since he’s instant downs (he’s less vulnerable to holding W after getting injured)
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@Kalinikta said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2688904#Comment_2688904
The main question above is how many hooks do you have. I also gave a break down of what I find a good performance and what a bad.
I am reflecting my experience as a whole, because if I cherry pick 4 man escapes, it isn't really accurate. A 3 man escape can be a worse game than a 4 man escape, should I ignore that fact. The conversation is about hooks after all.
Just FYI here’s the original post
(Without kills)
I have between 3-4 hooks in most of my games and 1 if the survivors are really good.
I wanted to ask, how many hooks do you usually have when everyone escape?
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I like him well enough. 🙂 His main weakness is his map mobility, his stealth is good though, and his exposed can work although it can also be tricky to time it sometimes.
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@Kalinikta said:
Anything between 2 and 12, it is totally dependent upon the survivors, map, my mistakes, etc. Personally I consider 1 to 4 hooks bad, 4 to 6 decent, 7 to 9 good, 9 to 12 smashed it.
It is more about how it feels than the actual number, because I can also feel pretty good at less or bad at higher amounts simply how the game actually goes.
FYI It’s mathematically impossible to have everyone escape and have more than 8 hooks. (The original post was specifically asking about if everybody escapes.)
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Good idea but it probably needs a buff. I’d be for maybe having its effect scale up as generators are completed. So something like
0 gens complete: All gens blocked for 20 seconds
1 gen complete: All gens blocked for 25 seconds
2 gens complete: All gens blocked for 35 seconds
3 gens complete: All gens blocked for 45 seconds
4 gens complete: All gens blocked for 60 seconds
(or whatever numbers are reasonable)
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My rule of thumb with an afk person is I down them but don’t hook them the first time I find them. I’d hate to hook someone that had a real life emergency come up or something. If they’re not back by the time someone else revives them though then I hook them out.
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To be fair you do make for a nice stocking for Nemesis. … Just don’t ask what he’s stuffing you with, 🤢
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I don’t think so. Shadowstep is useful but more conditional because simply hiding in it isn’t on its own necessarily doing anything productive. You’re not invisible and you still make noise and bleed so the killer can still have a decent chance of spotting you even if you’re in its range.
Circle of Healing though directly allows survivors to heal from injured in a very short time. This means that if a survivor is injured but not directly being chased they can spend about 15 seconds getting in range of the totem and healing to full, then get back to the gens. It is a significant impediment to spreading damage among survivors, which is a fairly important tactic to lose. Shadowstep can help evade a killer sometimes, but Circle of Healing greatly changes how killers might otherwise play the game overall.
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Nothing wrong with being stealthy, and I say that as a killer only player who loves playing as Doctor because it makes it easier to find hiding survivors. I definitely don’t consider it rude or anything, if someone hides and I can’t find them then I got outplayed, simple as that.
As a caveat though, if a survivor is just hiding and not doing anything useful the whole game, then they’re just hurting their whole team’s chances of escaping. So I can totally get why another survivor might get irritated by a teammate hiding the whole time.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2687086#Comment_2687086
Shadow step impacts way more then you think. So no...leaving pentimento up isn't nearly as impactful as 2 of the 3 boons.
Agree to disagree on that, I think Circle of Healing is way more impactful than Shadowstep. (I’m not calling Shadowstep bad, it is useful, just not necessarily better than other reasonably good perks.)
Circle of Healing is literally game changing though. It’s in a different category altogether because of how fast people can just run off and heal as a team with one Boon.
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@legacycolt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2687161#Comment_2687161
you can connect a PlayStation or Xbox controller to your iPad
Ooh, I should try that when I get home!
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I’m getting better matches overall with the MMR than the old system.
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@Lycidas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2687098#Comment_2687098
You'd be surprised
Yesterday I was in a match where my fellow survivors thought it was a good idea to break every totem they saw (dull or lit) and never going back to check even after it showed that the killer had Pentimento
Long story short, I see that the killer has Pentimento, look around for a re-lit totem, start walking toward it and it gets blocked because the killer reached 5 stacks
We still had 5 gens to do and the killer had 3 hooks
I swear, sometimes I wonder if I'm playing with bots or not
Yeah, 3 hooks before even a single gen is done is … 🤦♂️
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Unfortunately I’m out of town through Christmas, no DbD for me. 🙁
(Technically I have it on my iPad but I hate playing with those virtual controls.)
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@nostrada96ass said:
real life also first person view so thats empty question
Mirrors exist in real life. Also I can see more than my hands.
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Congratulations! Although I have to wonder about those survivors. Two people already dead with three gens left AND they let you have enough time to be short a perk while they cleansed all 5 totems and then went around and hexed all the remaining ones. What the heck were they doing that match? 😕
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2685327#Comment_2685327
Lol "much stronger" ok bud. You realize how game breaking boons are, right ?
When you say “Boons”, you obviously just mean “Circle of Healing”, the other two aren’t game breaking.
And the poster above is right, Hex:Pentimento’s 30% regressions are significantly more impactful on the match if they’re allowed to remain in place than either Boons Shadowstep or Exponential. Circle of Healing is the overpowered Boon, hopefully it will be getting a balance pass in the next mid chapter update though.
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People buy cosmetics in Overwatch also, even though you can’t see them yourself during the match. I don’t do it either but 🤷♂️
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I’d settle even for a random character select button in the character select menus.
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I’d put Artist in the same tier as Doctor. They both have excellent tracking and zoning abilities at loops, and also have a weakness in no long distance map traversal. I suspect she’s not stronger than Doctor like some people think, but rather that survivors aren’t used to watching for her crows at long distance yet and getting better and chaining tiles versus looping a single tile to help mitigate her ability.
Just a guess though.
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I definitely like the look of the new maps better than the old maps, they’re much more polished looking. Unless the theme I was after is “blurrier looking” I would never want the old maps back.
For reference, here’s a side by side comparison montage
https://youtu.be/J1gkCBOHlEM -
For reference the mobile version of DbD actually is free to play, if you want to see how they did that.
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@I_am_Negan said:
I'll be find with it as long as survivors get Crispin Glovers dance form Friday the 13th the final chapter😀
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/V0RO3OY4AC5I/crispin-glover-friday-the13th.gif
Crispin Glover reminds me that a Willard style killer might be kind of creepy…
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Just to clarify, her crows do travel up ramps and stairs. For instance, if you aim a crow toward stairs in a house on Hadenfield, the crows will fly up the stairs and hit things on the second floor. So they can move vertically, even if you can’t directly aim them vertically.
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Mismatches aren’t necessarily due to the ratings being off, it can also happen for a couple other reasons that can’t be avoided
- If a player or swf has already been in queue a long time they get matched up with the next available opponent. Because outlier high rated players have fewer close matches to choose from this “next available” match happens more often for them than average rated killers.
- Swfs also often have high rated players combined with their lower rated friends, leading to mismatches where you have high rated and low rated people on the same team and a killer maybe in between them.
Even if matchmaking was 100% accurate the above would still be issues.
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@fr0sty1223 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2685480#Comment_2685480
The problem is you will never be the last person left because almost every killer slugs the last two people
I can’t speak for others but I don’t bother to slug the third person to kill the fourth unless I already think I know where the fourth person is to chase them. If they’re just randomly hiding I just kill the third and hope I find hatch before the last survivor, it’s not worth my time slugging and spending who knows how long trying for a 4k versus a maybe 3- maybe 4-k
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@Wraithy234 said:
"Acceptable" in that you are always considered bad and a no-skill when you can't loop. As a survivor I can do basically anything besides looping, and I do get called bad all the time because "other things require no skill".
Are there really no other skills involved in this game?
As a killer who never plays survivor, I definitely think being able to loop well is a very important skill to learn as a survivor. Essentially once the killer spots you there’s a few basic ways to prolong how long you can stay alive, and looping is one of those. (The others are “holding W” to just extend the distance, transitioning between tiles in sort of a figure eight “loop”, and using deception to make the killer lose sight of you and go the wrong way).
People shouldn’t be insulting you for having trouble looping, that’s just rude. But don’t underestimate its potential value, if you can loop really well you can live significantly longer on average than using the other techniques alone. (And transitioning tiles is really a pretty similar skill set to looping a single tile, just a bit more advanced probably since you have to recognize when tiles are linked in an advantageous way.)
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2 kills average is really just shorthand for saying they want about a 50/50 chance of escaping more or less. I think their actual more detailed statistical goal is probably more like that the most common results includ at least one survivor escaping and one dying, i.e. the median results are in the 1-3 kill range. So 0 kills and 4 kill are intended to be outliers, 1-3 the most frequent results with somewhere around 2+ being the statistical average. (The actual average over all games is about a 55% kill rate I think?)
While you could also hypothetically balance for hooks, one downside to it is that slugging is also an intentionally allowed strategy. In fact they have some perks and killers designed explicitly around slugging survivors. A game where a Hag or Oni slugs all four survivors is a perfectly valid total victory win, even though it has a small number of hooks. Looking at that sort of game through the hook count lens makes it appear that strategy isn’t actually effective, and if you balanced through that view you’d end up looking to buff the viability of slugging killers and perks more than then needs to be buffed to increase their hook counts.
Also, note that a goal of having 1-3 kills be the most common results implies that most games end with the Exits open. So under that goal, even if the killer plays well, if the survivors also play about as well you’d expect that the Exits would probably be open most of the time. Some people who post in these forums seem to think the goal should be a 50/50 chance of the Exits opening in evenly matched games, and then claim the balance is off because that’s not the case, but that’s fundamentally not understanding the devs actual goal and how it relates to the Exits. You could make a game have that 50/50 chance of Exits opening, but the most common kill counts would be in the 2.5-4 kill range at that point. Whether or not that type of game would be fun I have no idea, but either way it’s not the game we actually have or that the devs want.
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I think there’s confusion on the forums between correlation and causation on nerfs. Just because a lot of people complain about something and then it gets nerfed doesn’t necessarily mean that the complaints caused the nerf. It’s just that things which might be out of whack in a statistical sense could be correlated with generating more complaints and already also be on the dev’s radar because of the game data. For example, assuming Pyramid Head was statistically getting more kills than he should compared to where they want the game to be then that would drive both their desire to nerf him a bit a few months after release as well as drive survivors to complain about him being “unfun to play against” or whatever.
But when you consider for instance how many complaints, justified or not, go totally ignored by the devs I think it’s fair to say that forum complaints themselves probably have a more limited impact on the balance passes the devs make than some people here think they do. I don’t believe the devs just look at the most popular complaint and say “let’s nerf that”, nor do they just come up with a nerf out of the blue, in both cases I’m positive they’re looking at game data and internal tests to decide what they think are actual problems they want to tweak for versus just the vocal people on the forums asking for a nerf.
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2685099#Comment_2685099
There is too many safe pallets in my opinion. There is a lot of pallets that the killer has no mindgame on it. I don't mind the existence of some very safe pallets: but they should be rare in the map.
I agree, a few safe pallets is ok, too many is a problem
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I don’t play survivor but the streams I watch I wonder if the recently buffed Windows of Opportunity is also a good pick? Now that the auras of vaults and pallets are permanently there it seems like it is probably extremely helpful when planning your routing during a chase, especially when you first see the killer and need to make a quick decision which way to run. It eliminates any guesswork on whether a pallet is in a particular spot or not, for instance, or what might be a bit of a dead zone because other people dropped pallets.
Obviously there’s other really solid perks to choose from too, but am I off thinking Windows is now really, really potentially good for survivors who are skilled enough at chases to take advantage of the info?
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
No, the perks don't need a nerf or buff.
I don’t have an opinion on Self-Care but Circle of Healing does probably need to have its healing speed reduced.
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I’m not basing my vote on stats or anything since I don’t objectively know how well or poorly Pyramid Head is doing on average. But in terms of personal experience I find him reasonably fun to play. 🙂
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2685167#Comment_2685167
"I get the idea mechanically, but Undetectable far away from the basement seems like maybe it’s a thematic mismatch?"
It actually is thematic because he's gaining undetectable from making an offering to his shrine. The power is bestowed by his offering.
"What about if instead survivors who are rescued and/or rescue a person from the basement suffer a condition, maybe becoming Mangled or Oblivious or Blind or have an action speed penalty, etc?"
They never want to do action speed penalties as a generally note as they typically deem that as "un-fun" and cab be stacked with others. Blindness is a garbage status effect in general. Oblivious would be tough to make worth running the perk. Like even if we said you get a minute of Oblivious when a survivor rescues someone from the basement, that would still sound just okayish and I doubt people would run that. Basement hooks are pretty situational which forces the effect to need to be quite strong to be worth running. Mangled on the hooks is just making it a scourge hook basically.
"Or hooking in the basement builds up tokens that impact the game, kind of like Dying Light building up gen regression?"
I like the idea of an effect from hooking someone in the basement that is only rewarding on leaving the basement to give encouragement for basement hooks, but not camping them. This makes me shy away from just "hook them in the basement and you get this benefit", because now he's still just standing there staring at the hook.
I guess I should clarify that I don’t see Undetectability so much as something the Entity is bestowing as something the killer is doing themselves. Making all the survivors Oblivious feels like a better fit in that case?
Also just standing staring at the hook to get tokens from hooking sounds counterproductive, you would want to go get more people to hook more often to get more tokens. If you just facecamp you don’t get as many tokens built up.
P.S. Either way we definitely agree that the current version is worthless.
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It’s just sore losing. I once got called a Tunneler when I 12 hooked as Legion for instance.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2685038#Comment_2685038
So basically as you mentioned we want to reward basement hooks but not with further encouragement to camp the basement. Encourage "fun" game play. Basement hooks are quite valuable so the reward needs to be good enough to incentivize leaving it.
-After hooking a survivor in the basement and reaching 16 meters from the hook the killer gains Undetectable. This effect persists as long as the survivor is still on the basement hook and the killer is outside 16 meters. The survivor being rescued, dying, or the killer entering 16 meters disables it.
Note that the killer entering the hook radius deactivates the Undectable but not the perk. IE once he leaves the hook radius it activates again (as long as the survivor is still on the hook of course).
This may seem very strong but basement hooks are not common typically and the incentive to let their hook be rescued for free needs to have a high enough reward to encourage it. After all he could have just stayed there and secured a kill.
The numbers can also be tweaked so 16 meters may be too short. Focus more on the concept as a whole.
I get the idea mechanically, but Undetectable far away from the basement seems like maybe it’s a thematic mismatch? What about if instead survivors who are rescued and/or rescue a person from the basement suffer a condition, maybe becoming Mangled or Oblivious or Blind or have an action speed penalty, etc? Or hooking in the basement builds up tokens that impact the game, kind of like Dying Light building up gen regression?