danielmaster87
danielmaster87
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Because the system they have isn't strict enough. I preferred it when queues were like a minute, but at least you knew the caliber you were getting every time.
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@jamally093 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880621#Comment_3880621
Or just at least removing God pallets not all I mean killer shack pallet is fine but a lot of maps cough Gideon *cough* as wat to many God pallets or even then just really safe pallets I won't lie just remove some of them because playing killer there is horrendous. Also I say had breakable walls to Hawkins and Lery's mostly because you try go cut a survivor off only to realize that the wall is extremely long with no doors or even a single vault zone.
Killer shack is a really badly designed loop where survivors have all the power, AND they can use it over and over. And honestly most pallets these days are almost as strong.
I thought that when they introduced remastered Lery's and the breakable wall mechanic, that the bricked up wall spots of those different rooms would be that map's breakable walls. They could still do that, but I guess they'd have to turn the bricks blue, red, and yellow like they do pallets.
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Matchmaking mentioned. 👍
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Bingo. The inconsistency of BHVR's MMR at work. It forces mismatches to not only hide the true state of the game, but to speed up queue times. Well, the quick queue times don't matter if the game is trash and nobody wants to play it.
I don't want MMR removed. No, no, no. But BHVR's gotta fix it. Reverting it to its original state, and keeping team MMR, would be a start. But you've got to base it off more than kills and escapes. Hooks, gen efficiency, chase time, all this stuff should matter. When you factor it in to matter, and you see that certain strategies and perks lead away from that desired gameplay, it's time to do balance changes.
What the devs do now is put people into random matches, see that the oh-so-important kill rate/escape is in balance. And then look to complete casuals, and a few content creators, for balance advice. That doesn't work. You're not seeing that your bad matchmaking is causing the casuals to have bad matches, thus skewing their views of balance. And when you go off their views like you do, you confuse yourselves even more. It's a feedback loop. Anyone can see this.
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Do y'all ever factor MMR into why solo is so "miserable?" Or just blindly blame killer stuff every time?
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Doesn't that make it a 2v6 anyway?
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No NOED?
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@jajay119 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881331#Comment_3881331
There’s always an excuse. Go back to three years ago before the big perk shake up and the excuse was Dead Hard. Killers have always found a justification to play like this. It’s tired, it’s boring and it needs to change. The fact that there is such a plethora of excuses for it is not doing anyone any favours.
The biggest and best example of this being a ‘because it’s easy and because I can’ mechanic is that it was rife in the last Chaos Shuffle when no one knew what they were going to get and no one could depend on a specific load out.
I understand killers don’t want their easy wins taken away, but survivors didn’t want the hatch to be nerfed and it was. Thing that are problematic need change.
How are the wins easy? Haven't you played the role?
The hatch nerf you're referring to was done because survivors almost never did all the gens, and still escaped. Compared to what it was back then, hatch is perfect now. I still don't like it, because it's a 3rd exit harder than the others for the killer to patrol, that appears even when the exits are already powered. But at least it isn't a instant escape for multiple people with gens still to go.
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@Marc_123 said:
The game is great. 9 years don´t happen without a reason.
I hope they somehow manage to get the bugs down. The engine update really messed things up even further.
Also there must be something done for new players.
Cross-generational as well, console-wise and people-wise. That almost never happens.
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@Peppa_Pigsaw said:
I honestly think the main thing that started it was the Flashlight buffer and then when Background Player was hyper buffed. It's super easy to get flashlight/flashbang saves now and I honestly personally believe the buffer change was one of the worst things they've ever added to this game. BGP just makes it worse because now you don't have to position properly for a save, you can be far away and do drive bys with flashbangs. Hooking for killer is already a massive time sink and the fact that for an extended period of time now it's just super risky to do means that people simply don't want to hook. Getting a hook save would be the same thing as a killer kicking a completed gen and then forcing survivors to do it again. It just feels bad.
Exactly, on both points.
Survivors used to have stricter timing on blinds. That required game knowledge and was a skill. Now, they seem to blind super late or early, or from some wack angle where they're not even on the killer's screen, and now the killer has to redo a chase all over again. Nobody wants to deal with that. And then flashbangs, which are still busted, because they're dead silent and can go throw walls and the back of the killer's head.
All that, just for survivors to be immune for up to 70 seconds or more on hook, per hook, and 2-3 gens have been done, or almost done, for each. It sucks. Nobody's excited to play the role in this state, or play at all, because it's almost like playing to lose. That's why everyone switched to slugging. They also don't want to activate survivors' Terminator mode with DS, OTR, DH, We'll Make It, etc.
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@WolfePhD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/438077/ever-thought-off-why-slugging-increased
My genuine answer: toxicity has spread through the community because of developer inaction. If you ask anyone what gets under their skin right now, they would say “slugging”. People who want to inflict pain on the community will now slug to get what they want.
The problem is that those players will not go away. Slugging will eventually be addressed. Then we will all be upset about something else and the cycle continues. We need BHVR to decide to be heroic more often or try to make a peace offering with those players somehow.
But most people who slug are doing it to win, just like with tunneling and camping. Assigning "toxic" to everyone who uses it is an unfair argument. And even if that was true, they could slug all along. Why address it only now, when it can be easily conflated with people who just want to win? Sure, survivors can gen rush a killer or flashlight save all the time with the intention of making them feel bad, but do we destroy survivors' abilities to do those things because of that? No.
Killers will be upset if slugging goes, because the devs have a track record of taking away all this stuff from killer, and not giving them other viable options. And when they nerf both a killer thing and a survivor thing at once, it's usually a 2:1 ratio, survivors getting the softer blow, the better deal.
I don't know what you mean by giving a peace offering to the unthinking toxic people. I don't think that'll work. But if it does, the more the merrier. I'd love to see more strategies that both sides can enjoy.
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@Wrecked said:
I got slugged the other day and decided to incorporate Unbreakable into my build (since they gutted Wake Up) and I have only managed to use it once. I know slugging has increased, but I was surprised how little I actually needed to use it during my matches. I'm just keeping it as a fail safe. I'd say that proxy camping / hard tunnelling is seen more in my matches as of late. Both survivors and killers seem really fed up and aggy recently.
And that's the smart play. I usually say I can't play without Windows or Deja Vu. I technically can. Those perks, or my other non-essential perks, can be subbed out to bring counter perks for a common strategy. I've brought maps before to counter hexes and Trapper before. I've brought Resilience or Sprint Burst to counter Plague and Legion.
People are fed up because this game state is garbage. MMR is just putting whoever with whoever it wants, and making every match a sweat fest.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880979#Comment_3880979
Not even remotely the same thing. Equating any of these to being on the ground for 4 minutes is disingenuous at best. Using your power takes care of half of these alone. And none of these things prevent you from playing the game entirely.
Killers would love for slugging to help them win, without wasting other players' time on the ground, but that's literally what slugging is. And the people on the ground aren't doing literally nothing. They're recovering and then crawling towards a teammate to reset with heals, or crawling to Exponential or something. If anything, that gives you more of a sense that you're actually accomplishing something than what killers usually deal with, which is going through the motions of doing the best chases they can, knowing that they're set to lose the match anyway. They're not prevented from playing the game per se, but they essentially are.
It's a dangerous way of wording it, for any of us. Survivors have argued that Legion with his deep wound, or 'Forever Freddy,' was "Stopping people from playing the game." Or gen defence, or gen rush.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881134#Comment_3881134
I think there's a hierarchy here. I think anti-slugging perks are actually a great deal stronger than anti-tunnel perks. If every killer started hard tunneling every match, survs would generally be in deep trouble regardless of their builds. To a determined (and good) tunneler aware of them, the anti-tunnel perks are just an inconvenience, a speed bump.
Tunneling is and will always be the most consistently effective path to victory as killer.
If every killer started slugging constantly, the resultant anti-slug meta could cancel that in pretty short order. If you had 3-4 WGLFs and/or 3-4 UBs in every match winning by slugging would be nearly impossible against coordinated teams, and difficult even in solo queue.
When playing surv, I never want to be tunneled or see teammates tunneled. If I've got an anti-slug build on, I often think "please leave us on the ground. Do. It.".
And honestly, how often do you get screwed (as in lose a game) by sabos or blinds? It happens to me, but pretty rarely (those games are usually pretty infuriating and memorable, though). It pretty much has to be a swf, and sabos are less effective now with all the shrunken maps. And saying kicking gens is negated by Blast Mine is a stretch. It's a mild annoyance.
There's not much equivalency here, really.
Anti-tunnel perks can't simply be countered. You can't tank the DS stun, because that's losing all your momentum on the spot. If you slug them til it runs out, that's more free time they just bought because you're waiting all this time just to put them right back on a 70-second hook, and they could be picked up by teammates before then. I really don't see how people say DS and OTR "does nothing" to a tunneling killer, especially if more than 1 person has it.
You're right on the slugging counters.
What I meant by the sabo and blind saves is that it's another reason not to hook, because you get massively punished if one of those things happens to you. Sabo isn't that weak, especially if there's a spread hooks offering, or just a bogus map like when Ormond or Swamp spawns literally 1 hook per corner, then nothing for miles. Or just regularly spaced hooks when you know you've got to drop the survivor, and now they're a free pick-up because they're immune to being carried again. Just because they're rare doesn't change this. And flashlight/flashbang saves are common enough, and they're way easier to pull off, especially with silent/through-walls flashbangs and off-screen flashlight saves. Blast Mine was a stretch by me, but just a bit. It's annoying to have to waste precious time kicking gens, especially with no Pop or other gen perk, and get stunned and blinded, and then have to redo the kick, and the perk's only requirement is that survivors do their objective. See how all of the killer disadvantages stack on top of each other to create a bigger problem? And of course, all of this gets amplified when SWF is in play.
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@alpha5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881131#Comment_3881131
Peak Pop was one of the most effortless things ever when killers endlessly traded on their Pain Res hook annihilating gens far and close while punishing non-BT unhooks. That's how killers won. That, and a generally lower skill level with weaker macro play due to lack of HUD. Oh, and casuals had fewer items as that was before the Bloodweb/BP adjustments. It's amazing to watch you list all these pieces across multiple threads and half the time you present a reasonable line of thought (even though it drowns in doomposting most of the time) while during the other half your bias conveniently lets you forget everything that contests your claims.
What's 1 Pop or Pain Res every now and then? Even at their peak, that wasn't a lot of regression.
If it never was that much regression then why constantly complain about their nerfs and state the need for slowdown at every opportunity? And why did everyone run these perks in the first place? Probably because 40% regression for a simple (every) hook trade that could utterly fail thanks to hook grab and a more popular STBFL was not exactly a puny reward for a little bit of trading hooks while waiting for mistakes during rotations.
As for addressing the actual topic: It was only a matter of time until more gamers explored slugging. What series of changes led here is irrelevant because slugging itself wasn't changed. The question I find more interesting is Will survivors adapt and bring different loadouts to deal with it and how effective are those? I think one or two WGLFs should be able to compete with anything that isn't Nurse/Blight/Billy/Knockout for the most part.
No, it wasn't. Knocking 25% off a gen was like 20 seconds. That's like nothing in the grand scheme of things, especially if 2 survivors were on it. And it doesn't do a thing if the gen gets done before you can kick it, which happens even when you get there in time, because survivors will go down for the gen just to make sure it's done. And your critique against Pain Res doesn't work because it does the same thing now, just with a gutted number of uses.
In the same way that y'all twist everything decent killer has as OP, we're trying to say that killer stuff is decent enough to run but not the worst thing ever. We're just trying to say that the things y'all complained about were not unbeatable like you claimed. Killers could get 6-7 uses out of Pop/Pain Res, and the gens would still all get finished, because the survivors were efficient. That's how much of a time time disparity there is between killer and survivor objectives. Some just don't accept any of this, and literally say stuff like, "You should be getting 4ks non-stop as killer, or U bad."
I agree with you on the last bit. Killers were always going to move towards tunneling, and in this case slugging, eventually. What the devs did by nerfing all of the hook reward stuff was accelerate the killer playerbase's gravitation to those strats. They shot themselves in the foot. I don't think survivors will adapt, because they hardly ever do. All it would take would be 1-2 anti-slug perks per team, and they'd be able to beat any slugging killer. Obviously we don't expect everyone on the team to have a pure anti-slug loadout, even though slugging is becoming meta. But because it's becoming meta, we do expect people to actually bring something, a perk or new game awareness, to try and counter that playstyle, rather than just complaining because, "It's unfair." And if slugging gets nerfed through base Unbreakable or something, what's the killers' next fallback? Because random chases aren't going to cut it.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881131#Comment_3881131
I wouldn't call the OverBrine meta healthy, but the idea was there. You're right that having a stronger kick meta encouraged a lot more hooking and patrolling and less camping and tunneling, but the numbers mixed with the incap duration were just too much at their best, and got brought too low at their post-meta values. My theory is that there is not very good internal testing for synergies on either side, which is why we end up with combos that go from way too strong to near useless when they get panic overnerfed.
Every negative change tends to lead to LCD strats while people look for a new meta. The problem is when the community can't find one, so instead they just stick with the LCDs due to the conditioning effect from my other post. This is also coming from someone who doesn't think that LCD strats require no skill, just that their impact is disproportionate from their skill floor. Simply put, they should be harder for how effective they are, and I'd rather it move in that direction than the opposite of just removing/limiting the strats altogether. In fact, hard nerfing something like slugging due to complaints about bleed outs and the like would directly impact its practical applications (like chasing down someone waiting for a save, slugging one for pressure, etc.) This would apply to tunneling and camping just as much, and is probably a big part of why they put the face in AFC.
But basically I want them to get better about nerfs staying reasonable rather than ham fisted. It feels like there is so little forward thinking in a game that forces new content every 3 months that its kinda wild it hasn't burst at the seams at this point. Which is unfair to the game's planning/directing, but these are all things they could be working on in a way that benefits the entire playerbase through a health chapter instead of risking unhealthy strategies within the userbase (survivors included.)
Well, we'll agree to disagree on the Overbrine stuff. But otherwise, I totally agree. What I've noticed is that due to the heavy nerfs killers have been getting in recent times, killers have been experimenting with new combos and meta options more than ever. They've tried Mindbreaker for a while, then switched to Unforseen/Nowhere To Hide, then from Eruption to Deadlock, not really Pop/Pain Res anymore, the return of Surge. But all of this is in response to killers having no good options anymore. It's not like all the experiments were from everyone running 1 meta build, and then it got nerfed, and now they're looking for the next best thing. No, the top like 10-12 meta killer perks had been nerfed, so now things that used to be considered trash are now appealing options. Tru3 explained that concept perfectly in MS paint.
There has been a lot of unreasonable nerfs, which were radical even when compared to what the community was asking for. Old Eruption was considered OP, so people advocated for more regression and less Incapacitated. We liked the Incapacitated effect of it, because it was one of the only perks that applied the effect, which is a pretty strong one. But they just got rid of it, and subbed it for useless aura. They turned Hangman's Trick, an already weak perk which I said they should've brought the ptb version to live, so that now it's a scourge hook, which killed the perk. The gen defence perk nerfs were the most glaring. Deadlock doesn't even block 30 seconds per use anymore, Ruin no longer destroys itself after a kill but it's still weak, and Pop/Pain Res obviously blow. I remember a time where Pop and Pain Res were at their strongest, and the killer could get 6-7 hooks thus 6-7 uses of those perks, and the gens still all got done. Then they nerfed them, to where Pain Res is 1-use, and Pop is regression of current, which scales down horribly. It's like, "Man, that value Pop. 5 whole percent off a gen." And then both had their numbers nerfed further. Like ######### man?
I've said to someone here that it would be hard to uncondition us from tunneling and slugging, because we're so used to having to do it, but that's never gonna happen if they don't start somewhere. Bring gen defence back, bring decent power in chase back, bring hexes back. Or at least stop further BS nerfs from happening. This is the weakest killer's ever felt by a mile.
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@Yggleif said:
I ask killers why they slug when I play survivor and by far the most common response is "cuz it's funny" which I sort of translate as they can't face camp anymore so slugging is the next best thing.
They are trolling. Most killers don't have the luxury of easy opponents to do such a thing. Really, they're probably saying that just to put on a façade, like they're really just ragers/rage baiters, and play it off like they're Mr. Cool because you can't physically see or hear them.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881004#Comment_3881004
Anything that removes agency there outside of "hooks" is against the rules, like body blocking in a corner, as in, it is bannable. But again there, you show your clear bias. Because the "survivor things" are, well counterable.
I can say the same thing about tunneling:
- Just run anti-tunnel perks
- Just get body blocks from your teammates
- Just run unbreakable to not get slugged
- and so on.
The thing is that killers have to dedicate their whole build to a strategy, whereas survivors can screw up the killer's strategy by equipping 1 perk. Killer's slugging? 1 UB or WGLF screws him. Killer's tunneling? 1 DS or OTR screws him. Killer's going for regular hooks? Flashbang or Sabotage screws him. Killer's kicking gens? Blast Mine screws him. You just don't get that kind of perk power on the killer end. Rancor's the closest thing, where you kill 1 guy, and it still isn't foolproof because they can be body blocked.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881088#Comment_3881088
Its been a gradual trend. Things like OverBrine were not healthy, but even simple things like removing the BP incentive to spread hooks on BBQ has been a contributing factor. For a direct example, while something like PGTW at its strongest might not have been the most healthy, it certainly didn't deserve to get knocked all the way down to its current state. As it stands, slugging is literally more effective gen defense than most gen defense perks, especially if built around it. It applies to survivors in a similar fashion, the medkit nerf similarly led to an uptick in gen rushing because they handled the nerf too hamfisted (as per usual.)
The general idea is that metas form around what is the most effective, and as a developer you generally want that to involve higher skill ceilings and more skill expression. When LCD strats are the meta it means you are stifling your own playerbase, essentially.
Edit: I guess I could clarify by stating that things as simple as spreading (or even getting) hooks or doing chests/totems are actively discouraged by the current state of the game, and changes that obliterate a particular category like the ones above are how we got here.
Things like Overbrine were healthy, because the killer actually kicked gens and got value. Peak Pop was super healthy as well, requiring the killer to get downs all the time to use it. See how y'all twist it? I think medkits healing people broken fast like they used to contributed more to gen rushing than slower heals, don't you think? If you're healing either way, wouldn't the quicker heal mean you get back on the gens faster? Of course, that nerf made a lot of players just stay injured while pushing gens, because they could, with no real negative. Imagine then how oppressive they were when they were able to heal in seconds, always being full health AND pushing gens fast. I don't know how killers won, ever.
You actually get that it's LCD strats we're moving towards now, even though I don't think that's equatable to those strategies not taking any skill. I really hated the logic that fueled the nerfs that got us here. Everything said on the forums and by Otz, that old Pain Res and Pop were OP because, "You could tunnel while still slowing the gens a lot." No, not "a lot." If you're tunneling, you're too busy doing that to truly defend gens. What's 1 Pop or Pain Res every now and then? Even at their peak, that wasn't a lot of regression. Now they're nerfed to crap, and the only reason you don't still hear survivors complaining about them (because God knows they still would) is because killers have deemed them too garbage to run anymore. And the end conclusion of that initial bogus argument is basically, "Anything that slows the gens is bad, because it buys more time for tunneling (aka killing the survivors)." So that's what we saw, just nerf after nerf against basically every gen defence perk. But clearly because survivors lost old instaheals, MoM, infinites, and pallet vacuums, "The game is SO killer sided!"
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Not really. Slugging was always that good, the thing is that nobody did it back then. Slugging provides the same map pressure which hooking provides (which is something which was said while DS was actually good, but always ignored by Killers, because DS was apparently the flavor of the months why they lose games), but is easier to do.
Killers just did not realize or utilize it. Even if you revert all the things you mentioned, we would still see massive slugging. The same happened with tunneling, when you clearly did not need to tunnel in the Eruption-Meta - yet it was completely present, since it was just so efficient, despite Killers having a Build at hand where they would not need to tunnel, because it was just that good that you had to try to lose games.
Nobody needs to slug in the way it is done currently. Even if people think they go against MAX MMR and BEST PLAYERS IN (REGION) or whatver.
Some of what you say here is true. Slugging has always been decent. And if you fixed all the bad changes that led to this point, slugging would still be prevalent. But that goes the same for tunneling and camping.
And the reason for that is because at one time killers were naïve, and went for hooks always, even when it made them lose. They'd just look for a build that would work better, or learn to play better. But they kept losing, when the survivors really didn't out-skill them, just out-advantaged them, and got tired of it. So they, like I did at that point, turned to tunneling. We've been so conditioned to tunnel, because it was necessary for so long, it physically feels bad not to, because it feels like you're purposefully making a bad play. I never really got with camping, so I can't speak on that. And now it's down to slugging, where people don't like to hook because they give the hooked survivor their Terminator mode perks. We would all love for non-tunnel hooking to be viable again, and to go back to enjoying that playstyle, and have it as our default. But it feels like naivety to go back to that. It's hard to believe that it's viable again, and that we won't get omega punished for playing that way, as we are now. While it was inevitable that people would be pushed towards tunneling, camping, and slugging, because it's the most efficient, the devs making all these dumb changes that punished killers so much FORCED them to accelerate their gravitation towards those strategies. That's my take on that.
You did have to tunnel in the Eruption "meta" against good survivors. I didn't use Eruption much back then, because pretty much every time I used it, the survivors did the gens before the regression blow-up went off, after I spent tons of time giving up lead in chase so I could kick the gens, and then lost. Exactly what I say survivors needed to do back then to beat it. Just because something is a noob stomp tool, and most of the survivors are noobs, doesn't mean it's an unbeatable meta perk.
People slug right now because they have to. The strategy doesn't propel people to MMRs they don't belong in, because if that was the case, they wouldn't have enough skill or game awareness in the first place to understand and execute the strategy. They're doing it because they see that they physically don't have enough time to kill the survivors normally. That's not a lack of skill, because as I've already explained, they tried getting better, about the best they can, and it still doesn't do anything to improve their results. 1 decent team? 3-4 man escape. We need to stop treating high level survivors and SWFs like they can do no wrong, and that actually the killers are the ones that need handicaps. It's stupid. They're not held anywhere near the standard killers are. It's not even that they're the best survivors, and that's why it takes slugging to beat them. Just mediocre players require slugging to beat, because if their gen speed is anything close to a higher level team, it's gonna be just as tough for the killer. Y'all underestimate how powerful mid-level and learner survivors are, again not because of their skill, but because of the advantages they hold over the killer.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
didn't cared in the first place why the killer started to slug
Because killers haven't just started to slug. They've been doing this since 2016. Same as camping. Same as tunneling. It's nothing new whatsoever. Just more popular now since other "strategies" have been rightly addressed.
People slug regardless of game balance. You could buff regression perks until the cows come home and the killers doing 4-man bleed outs will still be doing it because it's never been about game balance.
The vast majority of the playerbase is having NO issues winning through regular gameplay. People who need to slug to win are either not skilled as killer, or being dishonest about why they're slugging 🤷
They've been wrongly addressed, because they already had perfectly viable counters, and now they have extra counterplay. With tunneling, survivors used to have to bring BT. Now they get that plus Haste off hook for free. With camping, survivors could do gens and hook trade at the last second, and still have that be a time positive for them, and now they get Deliverance for free.
There's always insults thrown around about killers supposedly not being skilled because they do X, and every time, X is a strategy which smart players came to the conclusion to use. If they weren't skilled, they wouldn't be winning, because they didn't know about or use the game-winning strategies, or have the skill in chase to execute those strategies.
I've bled people out, because they were toxic first, to play around hatch, or mostly just an alternative to hooking because hooking is a net negative. And most killers have those same reasons when they slug. You're exaggerating when you say all killers do it because they're unprovoked toxic.
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880893#Comment_3880893
“Because we're scared.”
This is a new low💀
@Shaped said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880929#Comment_3880929
Imagine the devastation of losing your w streak as killer. Truly terrifying.
I'm sorry, but if you had a game you thought was pretty darn fun, and then balance change after balance change threatened to ruin it, you can use whatever word you want, but yes, you would be scared to lose it. Not lose win streaks, strawman. Lose the fun in it. I don't keep win streaks because it's fake bragging rights, and that's because every 5 matches 1 decent team will just take the streak away. Whoever that doesn't happen to is just lucky or smurfing. Sorry. Good survivors have to throw to lose, because their gen efficiency alone leaves the killer insufficient time to kill them. Y'all can keep doing the trash talk and buzz words thing, but it's not a legit logical argument. That's why this game is stagnant, because the devs do think that stuff is like a really good argument.
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@DeBecker said:
Are we still up defending tunneling by killers double standards?
How is tunneling double standards? It's a strategy. Killers don't say you're not allowed to gen rush, or that you're toxic for doing so. They just think it's stupid. 5 gens in 5 minutes shouldn't be a thing.
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@Dadeordye said:
Damn!
I didn't thought this topic would get so much replies.
Thanks guys! 😁
Now I'm sure it got the attention from someone from BHVR team.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880842#Comment_3880842
"And now you want to take away slugging?"
That's EXACTLY what I've been thinking too!
They took killer resources away one by one until we got at slugging and after they take it away too… what will remain?
People need to want to play killer or this game literally dies.
Just like the guy says in the video: BHVR asked A LOT of stuff about slugging in their last survey, but only from the survs perspective.
Another VERY IMPORTANT thing that is said in the video and also by other people here is 2nd chance perks being weaponized against the killer.
They are suppose to be anti tunnel damn it.Yeah, world's gone mad. They really don't look at things from the killer POV, or they apparently play it but never go against a single decent team. I've got inflamed passion for this role, but dang if I don't feel like I'm not being unreasonable here. The only thing I see killers really having once slugging is nerfed is... hoping to stall enough with No Way Out/Remember Me? That's really the only alternative I've been able to experiment with besides slugging. But it's like, how does nobody see the time crunch we're on? They're literally balancing off the top 10 killer players and off brand new survivor players. That's the real unbalance in this game.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880704#Comment_3880704
I mean, I can get behind saying that Deliverance, OTR and DS are strong, even tho I would say that at least the latter two are really overrated.
OTR - no grunts of pain, immune to aura reading, free endurance to eventually tank a hit for teammate or get into next safe tile before killer downs you. All this for full 80s. This perk literally even holds way too much power for the duration it has.
DS - completely obliterates M1 killers and hold significant power against almost every killer when survivors know things like where to force downs after unhook
But Babysitter, Reassurance, Resurgence, Second Wind and Shoulder the Burden? Aside from Resurgence, all of them just have in Common that Killers on the Forum were Doomposting when the Perks got introduced or buffed that they will make Killer unplayable. Yet I barely see those Perks in my games. If they would be so strong, they would be way more common.
Babysitter - brutal anti-tunnel which basically provides full stealth when you unhook a survivor that has OTR, but in general, 10% haste for 30s is literally nuts.
Reassurance - literally a free card that prevents tunneling by keeping survivor on hook more, counters camping as a whole and nullifies killer's hook pressure in general.
Second Wind - literally a syringe v2.0 for unhooked survivor, do i even need to explain this one?
Shoulder the Burden - arguably the #1 best survivor perk in the entire game that not only counters tunneling, but literally forces 12-hooking and has impact on any hooking order that isn't putting every survivor on fresh hook before going for next hook state.
The reason you barely see those perk in your matches is because average survivor lacks macro skill expression to understand importance of additional game aspects.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880698#Comment_3880698
if you really think Resurgence isn't that much powerful, i don't know what to tell you.
And btw, balance decisions for strategies, perks, items addons and killers are not only based on pickrates, but also on general impact of those on match
Yeah, they don't draw the obvious conclusion that these perks like Resurgence, Second Wind, Moment Of Glory, Clean Break, are pseudo instaheals. If you last long enough in chase, or not even in chase, you get automatically healed while potentially progressing the objective at the same time. That is beyond broken. That's like a killer perk that regresses all gens as long as a survivor is on hook. It forces your opponent to commit to a bad option just to play around another bad option. If they let you go, you get healed for free. If they chase you as to not give you the free heal, you're still forcing them to choose to chase you, and you might still get healed.
The other perks aren't bad either. You said it. 30s of 10% Haste and extra time on hook? What's to scoff about that?
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880704#Comment_3880704
remember when they were complaining about blood rush when it first came out? And then no one used the perk lol
Because we're scared. On top of all the BS survivors have, we're worried about another of these perks being added to that meta. They still could be, assuming the meta finally gets nerfed, which it won't. DS has been meta for almost a decade, and people still don't see an issue with it. So anything that comes close to its power or its usefulness, yeah we're worried.
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@Adrien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880461#Comment_3880461
The 3-gen 40 mins+ game with OP gen kick perks was clearly outrageous.
The gen kick META was very low skill in terms of macro and micro gameplay : just perma kick a 3-gen and survivor will lose eventually.
I don't see slugging as bad as this one, far from it. Plus the trials are much shorter on average compared to the 3-gen kick META.
I think most killers use it to avoid some lose-lose situations with flashbangs or pallets saves, and to gain time on the picking up/hook walking time.
Slugging : In order to work, you still have to be a good chaser as a killer. If you are not efficient in chase and survivors managed to do gens quick and pick survivor not too slowly, it can backfire pretty badly.
I think the number 1 problem is the lack of coordination in solo Q, because of the lack information about our teammates.
I suggest a nerf on the aura hiding of Knock Out.
Yeah, like that was all happening off of the killer's own abilities. The only way a killer held a 3-gen that long was if the survivors just didn't know how to push. The "gen kick meta" is brain rot term that villainizes the killer for doing their objective. You mean to tell me that the killer's going around kicking all these gens, in EXCHANGE for pressure on the survivors in chase, because he has to kick the gen instead of going straight to chase, right, and the survivors still lose to him? Sounds like a skill problem on them, old Eruption or no. The survivors win the war of attrition, not killer. Or are you saying the killer's on every survivor and on every gen at once?
I don't know how you don't get that but you do get slugging. The killer has to be really good at chase to get everyone down in like a 45-second window. If not, the whole team recovers. I don't see how on top of it already being an unsteady strategy, Knockout also needs nerfing. The aura hiding makes Knockout. You can't change it.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880698#Comment_3880698
Resurgence? Really?
Killers these days turn their nose up at any perk that is even slightly useful for survivors.
When Vigil got a buff of ~2 seconds on the most recent PTB we had a bunch of threads claiming it was OP and needed nerfed. Despite the fact the change is barely even noticeable in most matches.
They unironically want every survivor perk to be Calm Spirit tier.
@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880698#Comment_3880698
Resurgence? Really?
Killers these days turn their nose up at any perk that is even slightly useful for survivors.
When Vigil got a buff of ~2 seconds on the most recent PTB we had a bunch of threads claiming it was OP and needed nerfed. Despite the fact the change is barely even noticeable in most matches.
They unironically want every survivor perk to be Calm Spirit tier.
Yes... Resurgence... The perk, the same as We'll Make It, that basically says, "The killer's not tunneling? Pretty much instantly heal you off hook!" And from there, they can go straight back to gens. How much progress did the killer really make hooking, when that's how strong survivors are off the hook and he doesn't come straight back? That's not even mentioning, DS, DH, and all those perks, but yeah, Resurgence is up there with them. It was good before its buff.
3-genning was a noob stomp strategy that was countered simply by playing as a team and strategizing, or not giving the killer a free 3-gen to begin with. People still complain about it even with the gen kick limit. Makes you wonder what other complaints are dumb.
Literally nobody said buffed Vigil was OP. I was an advocate of the buff, and for getting rid of Calm Spirit's dumb downside. I just don't like Smash Hit and Background Player activating every 20 seconds. But nobody's arguing that Calm Spirit should be standard. They're saying that robbing all of the killer's momentum from him because of a non-tunnel DS, or from a DH at pallet where he had to swing or you'd have got the pallet, is bad design and shouldn't be the standard, yet it is. Hence the push towards slugging, where you don't have to deal with any of that.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
Most of the people engaging in the 'slug meta' as a means of protest are just not that good at killer, or they are just 'those' kinds of players who will always take advantage of the most toxic and easy way to inflict misery on others in any game they play, as they likely have sociopathic tendencies - I am not being hyperbolic either.
If you are not consistently winning as killer in DBD in the current day, YOU are likely not as good at killer as you think you are as the game has never been more favourable to killers than it is now. The content creators doing this stuff (I don't think I can name them due to rules) lost my respect or if they didn't have it like some we all know too well, they sunk even lower in my opinion and they need to admit they just aren't as good as they think they are.
No, you don't understand. You do not win against good survivors. You only draw at best.
I get it. Y'all are in paradise, running meme builds, never stressing, and letting survivors go all the time to keep yourself in low MMR. But that's not reality for the rest of us. We want to beat good survivors, not just bad ones.
And it's not even about losing too often, or losing to good survivors. It's about losing or almost losing to survivors who have no place beating you. They go down instantly the moment they're not at a BS tile like shack, they could do the gens way more efficiently, and they don't even run meta perks sometimes, but they still win. That's how much the game holds their hands now. The gen defence is destroyed. Pain Res, which most people would call the most useful, literally deletes itself after 1 use. Want more uses? You have to hook all the other survivors, thus making the worse play and spreading hooks before killing anyone. And the pallets are absolute BS, because they're around every corner. You can stack Brutal and multiple stacks of Fire Up together, and you won't even come close to catching up to the survivor before they make their next loop. What is the point?
We'll admit we aren't as good when we stop getting such ridiculous asks. "Do a perkless add-onless streak, or you're not good." "Don't use any strategy, and go for random chases." "Don't use aura perks or slug, or you're bad." "Play Wraith, Pig, and Clown and get 4ks all the time." It's ridiculous. Why do you think the best players, in tournaments and stuff, never do that? "Because the survivors are strong." Well there you go. The moment survivors know what they're doing, and are efficient at it, killer can't match up. This is a dream world y'all speak of, where killer can just do whatever and win.
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@CursedPerson said:
The video is not really that great people like to say slugging is because x perks or they nerfed gen regression but thats all rubbish. The buffs to killer cooldowns and nerfs to survivor speed made this possible, survivors cant take killers to the other side of the map any more. Slugging was always a thing its just gotten worse with more people then ever slugging for the mori or 4k. At the end of the day survivors dont have as many tools to deal with it as they do tunneling, this disproportionately effects solo que cuz they lack the info and coordination. Their is only unbreakable and were going to live forever to help with this (exponential is really bad) so again they're relying on perks to counter this
How is Exponential really bad? It's Unbreakable for multiple people, replaceable infinitely.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880461#Comment_3880461
It's funny to me how this vocal minority insists hooks are too weak now, and slugging is just the META play when the vast majority of killers are doing perfectly fine (better than fine even) by just playing normally.
The overwhelming majority of us are having no problems winning matches without bleeding everyone out and that's all the proof I need to know that it's not about playing to win, it's about trying to grief.
Because the majority, or the average, isn't straight correlated to high level play. High level killer is just awful. You have to do perfect chases and hope the survivors get crappy loops, or don't know how to run them. If not? Just settle for a draw at best. You think the killers whose survivors are just allowing hooks over and over need to slug? Of course not. They're blissfully ignorant of what high level is, even though they claim that's where they're at.
And again with this emotional language. Killers aren't slugging just to bleed people out and make them feel bad. They do it because survivors become untouchable once hooked. All the possible DSs, OTRs, DHs, Resurgences, We'll Make Its they'll have to deal with... It's not worth it. If survivors aren't running those perks, well then either they're not smart or the killers they go against are easy.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
Just want to say - a lot of misconception of slugging taking less skill or effort - that's just nonsense. The most skill based part of DBD isn't doing gens, it's not carrying survivors to hook, it's chases. For survivors it's the ability to hold a chase the longest, for killers it's the ability to end the chase the fastest. Slugging doesn't negate this. If anything, you have to have quick chases just to make it work.
Yeah, that's what people don't get. If you're going against strong survivors, the kind who just don't go down, slugging does nothing, because you don't physically have the downs to start slugging. And nowadays any survivor can be that kind of survivor, because all killers are nerfed and maps are just as strong. Even against subpar survivors, you getting everyone downed at the same time is highly unlikely. You'd have to go from downing 1 to 2 to 3 to 4, all within the span of like 45 seconds max, or else they pick each other up. And then they can have Unbreakable, and then they can have have We're Gonna Live Forever, or No Mither, or Soul Guard, or Exponential for everyone which is replaceable forever. Survivors have a million ways to counter slugging and they won't use them.
This is just like with gen defence. Why are we nerfing the playstyle that requires the most downs in the least amount of time? That which requires the most skill?
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@Pulsar said:
If it's easy and puts people in a position of power over others, people will abuse it.
This is no different than Boil Over, Flip Flop UB in RPD.
They do it simply because they can.
That's not even why people slug. Are you that naïve? That's what survivors have over the killers, power, and why the killers resort to slugging to win. You're telling me that killers have more incentive to hook than to slug? With rebuffed DS, OTR that gives a minute+ invulnerability plus power creep on Iron Will, and third health state DH?
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@BorisDDAA said:
This is no different than the gen kicking strat outrage or any nerf in dbd history. When BHVR removes broken toys, people moan and move to the next thing that takes less effort to do while trying to find 1000 excuses to justifiy it. Hooking is no different than years ago. The majority of killers I see hook people and win. Knockout needs a rework and bleedouts to bm/waste time should be addressed.
No, it's objectively harder to go for hooks than it ever has been. I argue the opposite, that killer's always been really weak, and every time our so-called "meta" gets nerfed, we move on to the next least weak thing. Survivors are the ones who move on to the next least effort thing. With random matchmaking, survivors had to be good, as in do good chases and be efficient on gens. Now they can be half-efficient on both and still win, because every good killer's been nerfed, every gen slowdown has been nerfed, the devs keep making maps stronger because survivors lie and say there's no pallets, and when they get unhooked they become Terminator with all their perks activating. Instantly healed off hook, over a minute of a third health state, 10% Haste and 10s BT at base, DH for another third health state, DS for a 4-second stun so you can go down in a dead zone and still make it somewhere. What have killers got? Slightly faster kicking and weapon wiping. And now you want to take away slugging? I guess killers will just queue up to lose, and be a plaything.
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@buggybug said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880533#Comment_3880533
LIke knight too another one that still just no skilled. I feel he still aint nerfed properly.
You can't be serious. Who else isn't nerfed enough? Wraith? Pig? Clown?
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@Pulsar said:
Can't say I've ever been fond of powers that are, "I clicked a button, leave the loop or die"
That's such a bad faith, simplistic analysis of a killer power.
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@Yggleif said:
Honestly she gets played like a bad wraith these days and it works against most people for some reason lmao.
Because the average survivor's caliber is like nothing. The hardest match throws I've ever seen have all been in this game. Extremely broken gen speeds, like 3 gens for 1 chase, extremely unfair loops that are 100% reactable by the survivor, like killer shack or long wall jungle gyms, and perks that just turn you into Terminator like OTR, DS, DH, etc. The survivors will have all of that, and then just stop progressing their objective, and forget how to loop. That, or they didn't know they had all that stuff to begin with, and just got lucky the game handholds them so hard.
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@Peppa_Pigsaw said:
Because even if she's the worst killer in the game she feels awful to play against.
Literally how? Because she takes strategy and match awareness? Or because solo teammates suck?, because if that's the case, your problem is not with her but with them.
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@Massquwatt said:
It's just carry over from the old chess merchant days and it'll be a stink that'll carry even through to her rework unfortunately. The hate will never go down no matter how fun you make her to verse. Although the idea that people DC against her for "not being fun" is a bit silly when the Legion still exists and being the least interactable killer in the game. She's not a very hard killer to beat these days and not very strong either and yet, I still have people kill themselves on hook on what are totally winnable matches.
Tell me what "chess Merchant" means, because I'm still in the dark on it and I keep seeing people say it. I'm hoping it's a term created out of logic and reason, unlike the "gen kick meta."
I don't understand how Legion is boring. He's an M1 killer which is fun to go against because M1 is easy to loop. Usually the people calling him boring keep healing over and over despite that being the 1 thing that gives him value on his power.
And yes, people will throw away clearly ez win matches against her because they're infantile. They're just, "Don't like this killah! Rage quit!"
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@Rudjohns said:
And once and for all, people didn't use to DC against her because she was strong, its because she is a faulty killer, badly designed, thats all. And the fact that she is way weaker now just means people will pick her just to spite survivors, and play as nasty as possible. Nobody wants to deal with that. I don't blame anyone wanting to DC or to go next. I also prioritize my fun.
Very mature. Just DC against anything that's hard. Or something that used to be hard? I don't even get that second part's logic.
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@MissiCiv said:
Tbh i dont think it's broken at this time anymore, they just tuned it down without telling it anyone. We all now how greedy BHVR is when it's about giving away BP's or make it better to earn it alot
Which wouldn't make any sense, because it's base game currency, not like we're getting free auric cells or something. But greedy companies work in mysterious ways. It's why you can pre-order Assassin's Creed Shadows premium currency.
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@TieBreaker said:
The FNAF release will bring in a lot of children. Which in turn will make the playerbase even more bratty and obnoxious than it already was lmao.
That's for sure, although I can't imagine how much more childish the playerbase can get. Maybe I've been facing a lot of kids, and it's why when I call someone out for being toxic, they just respond with stuff that doesn't require ANY intelligence like, "Noob kid lol!"
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@WolfePhD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/438065/dbd-hot-takes
A large portion of the player base is neurodivergent and the developers still aren’t sure how to deal with … that.
Myself included probably. But I was gaslit for years that killer fov was fine until they changed it, or that auto-aim didn't screw you out of hits. Now I know I wasn't crazy, so now I'm not so sure.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
Solo queue isn't that bad
Survivors dying more often than not makes playing surv more fun and is thematically appropriate
People knowing their MMR would be a bad thing
Being "good" at DBD isn't skill based at all really, but knowledge based. Which is one of the reasons its rough for new players
Maximum efficiency/high level gameplay is boring AF, as unpredictability makes the game more fun
Solo queue is bad in that you almost always get inefficient teammates. When you don't, it's fine.
How would MMR being shown be a bad thing? Because to me, all it does is enable the entire playerbase to say, "I'm high MMR, so I know what's best for the game!" Can you prove it? "No, but I'm definitely high MMR! That's why I face OP stuff like Wraith and BBQ all the time!"
DBD is definitely skill over advantage. There's just a lot to learn. Not too much so that people with 1000+ hours still don't know what they're doing, but yet here we are.
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Hatch is a bad mechanic that does more harm than good.
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@Smoe said:
- Chucky should get his manual scamper back because it was too important to his character.
- Nurse's tome objectively didn't retcon her base lore, it's just the expectation of people's own subjective intepretation of her base lore that weren't met.
- All techs/exploits that uses an unintentional aspect are unhealthy for the game and does not belong in it whatsoever.
- Wesker & Legion have the worst chase music, in the sense that it fits the least as chase tracks.
- DBD Mobile's cosmetics are worse than DBD Core's cosmetics.
- Forgotten Ruins is not nearly as bad as some people make it out to be.
- Most maps are not problematic in design.
- DBD isn't just purely about the chases.
- The Finisher Mori is perfectly fine and should not be removed, only reason Survivors blame it as the reason for killers slugging is because they need a scapegoat.
- Older generation consoles are holding the game back.
- The memory wipe upon sacrifice aspect in the lore is perfectly fine.
- Myers stun noise should be removed as it doesn't fit the character.
- Chapters would be better off without any teasers or marketing to build up hype for the chapter, because it always just leads to people being disappointed in the end.
- Character authenticity and accuracy both aesthetically and gameplay wise are the single most important aspects no matter what and should never be compromised or be prioritized less over other aspects such as balance. (Unless it's Remake Freddy)
- The All Things Wicked chapter is the single most overrated chapter and it's popularity is solely carried by its initial marketing only.
- DBD shouldn't get anymore Resident Evil chapters.
- Backpacks makes cosmetics better.
- Vittorio needs less medieval & modern outfits and more outfits from different time periods.
- The game should not be balanced around high level players the same way other games are, because DBD is not like other games and cannot be balanced like other games.
- The snowmen moving in the 2024 Bone Chill event was an improvement over them being completely static, all it needed was some tweaking in it's pathing.
- Houndmaster's default design is 100x better than the stereotypical hollywood pirate design that have been carved into people's minds.
- Content creators have made and is still making the game worse.
- DBD will never truly be the hall of fame of horror as certain important horror icons will most likely never make it in.
- Sable and Unknown are both depthless characters who's popularity only carried by their designs alone rather than any of their perks or power.
- Both the bot lobby fill-in feature for DCs during both loading and during trial are/were only good things for the game and should be a permanent features.
- The PTB DC Bot fill-in during loading feature should have made it to live.
- BHVR should go through with bot fill-in for 2v8.
- Houndmaster's live chase track is better than her ptb one.
Chucky definitely needs the old scamper back. It's like dude, he couldn't even get you at a short pallet loop, WITH the 2% increased Haste add-on, if you just cut the loop tight and/or mindgamed well enough. And the pushback against him having that ability is basically, "He can get me at loops. That's unfair." It's the Wraith/Deathslinger nerfs all over again.
Definitely agree on the chapter buildup. If the next chapter just released all of a sudden, it's like "Whoa! What's this?!" Exciting, you know. Unfortunately, chalk it up to the devs' incompetence or spaghetti code, every time a new chapter goes live even with prior testing, the game gets massively screwed up. Reintroduced bugs, lag, perks not working, and killers not working. And the ptb for the most part is just there so that survivors can say, "Knee cap this killer!" earlier than release, so that they don't even have to deal with the killer at their strongest on live, and then still have the gall to later say, "He's still OP!" Look at Chucky or Dracula or new Freddy.
I really don't like Houndmaster's design. She was a waste of the pirate killer slot, the hound master killer slot, and the black lady killer slot, all in one fell swoop. Her gameplay is mostly fine.
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It's a killer issue, so not getting fixed.
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That's silly. Sorry.
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You'll need to elaborate.
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@DestroyerBG said:
Well good luck with that after my last game with Knight I am never playing against him like at all. No way am I playing against his stupid guards who walk through walls while I am forced to deal with material obstacles. Everyone else can have fun abusing bugs to deal with him or just somehow dodge him I will just end myself on the hook to avoid the pain of dealing with the bs that is his guards walking through walls :D
What courage. What will power. Just DC against anything that gives you difficulty.
His guards don't even go through walls. They go through pallets and windows, slowly. You shouldn't really get hit by them when the Knight isn't also there, so that would be a skill issue. And in the cases where the Knight is also there, him trying to get a guard hit on you in an attempted double tap, he probably would've ended the chase faster just chasing normally, with no power.