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@MadLordJack said:
"You can get rid of both of them with relative ease."
... not how Ruin/Undying works. And judging by your next statement about Ruin/Undying you seem to assume that everyone is a co-ordinated SWF.
The statement "The best way to get rid of ruin + undying is to have two survivors on two different totems at once btw." was just a quick tip for anyone who does play in a SWF group. As a survivor, you have much more time than a killer and there are four of you. Even when one person runs it, it is really hard if not impossible if they know what they are doing to get it out of the way. Even when you do get rid of it, most of the time it will still be favorable to the survivors since it gets its benefit from being used up. DS + unbreakable has no RNG aspect to it while ruin + undying does. Ruin + undying will usually last 2 - 3 totems on average. Sometimes survivors will literally find both totems and get rid of them very easily because of how BS totem spawns can be.
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@Cable2486 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1821035#Comment_1821035
THOH hasn't ever NOT been useful. It slows cleansing speed and gives away a survivors position with a noise indicator. It's actually a great hex to add to a hex heavy build. I run it on Hag/Wraith/Doc/Freddy/Twins/Clown with Retribution, Haunted Ground, and Ruin. It works wonders.
It is useful, but what else would we do with the tracking undying gives? With a killer who is attentive, the noise notification is the same as the aura reading. In fact, the aura reading is better since it can also happen randomly throughout the match. Undying is really just this perk but better since it also protects your totems even better and that has a decent chance to help you find survivors in-game. Using H:TOTH is useful, but not as good as undying since it literally makes your cleansed totems respawn. The only thing that H:TOTH has that undying doesn't is the slowdown the more hexes there are. This can even be paired with undying and thanatophobia which can make it near impossible to cleanse totems.
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@thisisntmax said:
DS unbreakable is only an issue if you specifically go after the same guy or attempt to slug for pressure. Guess you just need to adapt?
But why would I not do that? Specifically not going after someone who was just unhooked and was either in a bad spot or saved close to me is pretty counter-productive. The fact that they can get away for free is pretty BS. Both slugging and tunneling are actually effective strategies. When using it in this context, those perks seem kind of like a crutch for the fact that the survivor doesn't need to rely on skill to get out of the situation they are in and punishes the killer instead of the survivor for being in a bad spot.
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@Xx_Daniel_xX69 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1821633#Comment_1821633
Disagree as a survivor can throw themselves at the killer depending on the situation and force them to slug/grab them thus activating DS or making UB possible.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1821035#Comment_1821035
I also would support this change even though I don't have an issue with totems with detectives hunch, but thats just me and Undying would still be protecting Ruin so I see no issue.
The thing is with ruin + undying is that it has a lot of RNG, or randomness to it. Will the survivors use a map to find your totems? Perks? Will they have the entire team look for it if in a SWF?
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yeah 32 meters of range on this sounds nice
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*COUGH evil incarnate
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@Nogun61 said:
Lemme state that I'm a survivor main first. I agree that these problems shouldn't be seen with addons, but the actual killers themselves. I don't really agree with the specific comparison above, but I do agree with the idea. Personally, Oni is a very easy character to just avoid for me, and fighting things like doctor or spirit are just over before it starts (because they are overpowered)
I compared Wraith and Oni, not because of their playstyles, but because one of them had everything and the other had almost nothing. I could have probably chosen a different pair of killers though. Now, for spirit and doc? Spirit is not overpowered but she is barely pushing the line. The doctor is a decent killer at best, what makes you think he is overpowered?
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"Him"?
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@gadondorf said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1821356#Comment_1821356
Of course im right it's very difficult to dodge it non stop in one momment it will get you if he doesnt go so far with the chainsaw because of the run speed i had times i dodged the chainsaw like 8 tomes a row but to the point i couldn't dodge again since couldn't lose him and i got to dying state
What you want to do against billy is go for windows and force him to m1 you. Doing this will make sure that he never uses his chainsaw for lethality in a chase. The scary part about the billy is that he has great map pressure because he can run across any map with relative ease (even lery's if you know the layout, although other maps are still better). You never ever want to be in the open with a hillbilly right behind you. Do whatever you can to make sure he m1's you, vault a window knowing you will get hit if you must. If you're healthy, just don't let him hit you with the chainsaw because that will save him time and hurt your team. Lockers are also a thing you can use to quickly dodge a chainsaw.
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You are right, a hillbilly should not be able to spam his power when he is supposed to so he can get across the map.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
I think you misunderstand where people are coming from with the comparison.
DS-Unbreakable puts the killer in a lose-lose situation. Ruin-Undying puts the survivors in a lose-lose situation.
Find a lit totem? Was it the right one? Should you do every dull totem? Is there even Undying or was that something like Devour?
Try to do every totem? That's time you're not on gens while the killer is chasing/downing people AND can see you when you're close to a totem, so if it's a killer like Blight, they can be on you in seconds.
There's no winning! Doing totems means there's little to no gen progress which means you're facing an uphill battle afterward (unless the killer is really boosted or something). Not doing totems means you're powering through Ruin the entire time. Combine that with the rng of the totem spawns, and it easily makes games feel like you're battle perks and luck instead of the killer, exactly like it can feel when versing DS-Unbreakable.
There is winning, even a decent solo queue team can find all the totems they need. It is difficult, but once it is out of the way they can start playing normally. The killer cannot be everywhere at once and if a survivor is being chased, this means a generator can still be done while at least one person is finding the totems. This kind of coordination is not as rare in solo queue as you might think either. Remember, the second that survivors realize they are dealing with ruin + undying they will immediately try to find the totems required.
I am also not sure how it is a lose-lose situation with the combo described. If you are doing a generator, you are knowingly doing something that has a chance to be completely reset when you could instead work towards getting rid of it. As for unbreakable, DS, or both, you don't know for sure if the survivor has either. Since most people run DS, you practically have to assume they are running it so you slug them, if you pick them up you are risking quite a bit. Cleansing a totem that isn't the right one is not exactly a loss, it is just you gaining some progress towards fully getting rid of ruin. Also, remember that ruin + undying can only last so long while unbreakable + DS can be stacked on four different survivors. DS + unbreakable simply has way more potential than ruin + undying. I can see why it is luck and rng based though, for both sides which is something that needs to be addressed. But then again...BHVR isn't exactly the type of company to address core issues with their game.
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@dspaceman20 said:
I would argue that both are comparable as both essentially are one use perks. Once both DS and unbreakable is used early in the match they cannot be used again meaning the best strategy is to have to survivors use the DS and Unbreakable as soon as possible then from there it should be easier. Essentially DS is not a good anti tunnel perk. Ruin and Undying are one use perks in a way. Once Undying is gone its gone and can't be gained again, the same thing with ruin once its gone (given that Undying is also gone) it gone for good. Both perks are strong combinations, both can be used once and once both are gone can massively shift the balance of power to the opposing side, these perks are comparable.
The thing is that Unb + DS can be stacked four times and while it is unlikely that it will happen, people will often run DS without it. Usually, 3 DS users per game is what you should expect. There are also few times where you can just "get rid of it early on". The survivors still benefit from losing it. That is only if one person runs it and considering how most survivors do run it (it is not their fault tho, most perks are trash for them, same for killer) you are still going to have to suffer from its use. A killer jsut doesn't have the time to make the survivors use these perks most of the time, if they do then they were already doing great.
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It was a glitch that allowed everyone to have skins they shouldn't have. The devs mentioned that they would take them away soon.
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@Hardkill said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1821054#Comment_1821054
If you choose not to use the counter, the problem is you. Not ruin/undying.
I was joking, I would rather just not run that perk.
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@Hardkill said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1821051#Comment_1821051
Distortion exists. There, I just solved your problem.
Ew distortion
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@Mister_xD said:
they are equally boring to face.
and you mentioned it yourself, the only real counterplay this combo has is to just play SWF and coordinate on totems.
which means this build is an absolute solo q destroyer, which in return makes it unhealthy for the game.
Maybe. It isn't impossible to get rid of the combo, but it is still difficult to manage in solo queue. I feel like it does just a lil bit too much. I would take off the tracking it has so that H:TOTH is useful again.
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Haddonfield for the fact that the houses you can use are really strong and it can take a really long time to start a chase with a survivor especially if someone is using object. The next worst map would be mother's dwelling since it is just massive and frustrating to manage as killer.
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@JackHarper141 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1821013#Comment_1821013
Except he can 90% of the time because his hitbox is a truck
I doubt that it is 90% of the time. The game is bad when it comes to hits, but it is not that bad most of the time.
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It needs a nerf for sure.
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You could run around objects tightly so he can't jump at you.
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Technically, you don't have to sacrifice perk slots to deal with ruin + undying. In fact, a rainbow map with a glass bead will be more than enough to find the totems scattered across any map. The best way to get rid of it is to have two different survivors on two different totems, the killer can't be at two places at once.
It also only works if the killer does a good job pressuring survivors off of generators. Some killers do this better than others.
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*3/10 or 4/10 games are ruin + undying. It doesn't happen nearly as much as people believe. It will also only work if the killer does a good job pressuring you off of generators.
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I would add mr envy's chase and terror radius music in-game
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@savevatznick said:
There are those who are looped, and those who are not.
The strong killers can still be looped a little, but they actually have options.
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Whatever fits your playstyle is good. However, since it is solo queue you should know that Kindred is undoubtedly the best solo queue perk. Of course, you could always run other perks that complement a solo queue playstyle and that is playing incredibly efficiently. Meaning you waste no time and make every second count.
Kindred should always be on a solo queue build.
DS is not a bad choice, but once you become skilled in being chased you won't need it as much as everyone thinks they do. I recommend unbreakable once you can start looping the killer enough to discourage them from chasing you.
WGLF is also a great choice, but it requires you to be very quick in saving a teammate from the ground since you have to go over to them while being undetected by the killer. I recommend running SB with this.
WMI is a fantastic perk that many people overlook. It is great especially during times like this where rank reset just happened.
Bond is really good, but keep in mind that it only works for you. You can see your team but they can't see you.
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@Lyfe said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1820365#Comment_1820365
Same here... I've had like a max of 2 key games in like 20 games, If we're not counting broken keys, it's more like 1. Everyone's talking like keys are in every game meanwhile I've only seen one black lock key and they said they brought it for the hatch challenge.
Keys aren't that bad IMO. Maybe it's because I play Nurse though.
They are "that" bad if going against a team who knows what they are doing and bring map offerings along with that stupid Vigo's blueprint offering. Just not that much of a problem for nurse.
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@Witherrr said:
Tbh, wraith and clown are very dated. I wouldn't really say we've gotten a weak killer since like, demo
I feel like demo is a bit underrated for the fact that he is just a bit weak when it comes down to it. The stealth he gets when coming out of a portal is not enough and he is very loud so it doesn't even do much. The shred ability is actually very useful and his portals just give survivors a bit too much information. He also makes noise when in a chase swinging at survivors. Everyone else is able to easily tell if they are safe. A few tweaks and an addon pass will make him much better.
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@Sluzzy said:
The strength of killers are all subjective. Each killer has a specific playstyle and strategy and certain people will do well with some and not others. For example, a person that is good at strategy will do a lot better at Trapper or Hag than someone that is not. These killers can be deadly and turn the match at the drop of a hat. A person that is not good at strategy but good at aggression will do better with Hillbilly or Oni. A skilled sniper will make Deathslinger look OP although he is slow moving around the map. And a person good at multitasking will do well with the Twins managing two killers. Thinking all these killers need buffed is not what you need. Each killer has a specific playstyle and thinking they should all be able to sprint around the map and get 12 easy hooks is wrong.
I did not say that they all need some sort of map traversal ability, I said that they need more than what they have or something to help create pressure that isn't just speed (pyramid heads cages). You are right about all killers having different playstyles though. For example, look at Wraith and Ghostface. They are all about sneaking up on survivors and getting hits when they can however, if you look at it Ghostface is just a better Wraith. Ghostface doesn't have to deal with the cloaking and uncloaking thing and has more lethality in general. Even if someone plays a killer to their fullest, a couple of experienced players can completely change how you perform. Simply sneaking up on survivors is pretty much impossible if they all are looking out for you so you will have to rely on something else. In this case, ghostface will do better than Wraith since he can use his power to instantly down survivors. Wraith can at most get normal hits excluding lethal perks like MYC.
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Try running it with kindred
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I don't think so. If anything, besides what we believe what the devs are going to give him, he needs something that helps him in a chase. I have absolutely no idea what could help though.
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I actually haven't seen much of keys, same as before.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1819419#Comment_1819419
Wraith is getting another change... again. Sadly I think their change is just going to be invisibility and inabiltiy to light-burn wraith(similar to how trapper's trap cannot be sabotage anymore) . Stealth killers are huge gimmick in the game.
Their speculation relies on getting first hits but their issue is that they have to do this twice in really small time frame. Its too easy to abuse health states against them to over-commit to generators than just loop them as normal M1's as injured if they ever over commit to a chase. In short, Stealth isn't viable play style in the game at top-level and never ever has been.
Oni is m1 killer at the start, but when he gets his power, he gains instant down but more importantly, he gains mobility that is functional in loops, which allows him to outplay people in safe loops or at least force pallet drops. Generic mobility like Billy,Demo or like Freddy TP or Wraith Windstorm is not what makes a killer excel, if anything that stuff is just icing on the cake. Its their ability to use that ability to outplay people at loops and Oni fits the checklist perfectly. Wraith doesn't fit that checklist. Its simple as that. Maybe one day stealth will be like really scary if it becomes hard to heal against them and not easy to gen rush them but that is not present the game. For now wraith is scooby doo to face which will probably be for entire life cycle for DBD i think.
Being able to outplay survivors and make them drop pallets early seems to be a pretty good part of playing Oni. This isn't overpowered because there are still some things the survivors can do to not just throw down a pallet early, there are loads of jukes you can perform against Oni with one of the best ones being to pass a corner and crouch right past it to make it impossible for him to hit you (this is when he is using demon dash). Jumping in a locker around a loop to make him miss and immediately getting out and continuing to loop back to the pallet is also very helpful. Also, I think I already said this, but if you can play it really safe and take no chance to greed against him, then you will delay him from getting his power early which can cripple an Oni. Play stealthy when he is in blood fury.
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@monstermaster42 said:
Wraith was already buffed, he's already over performing as is, so it looks like he may have to be looked into further
..Over performing?
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Along with just about every other really unreasonably strong perk and weaker ones. Open-handed is pretty bad, but I guess you could run it with kindred or bond. Ace in the whole though is just bad.
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Doesn't happen every time. Unless you are at the lower ranks.
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@BigBrainMegMain said:
My beam has disappeared several times, I've missed flashlight saves because the beam just....turns off?
I'm still aiming but the beam isn't there. They give no indicator that the killer is blind anymore, you have to look to the left and make sure your points for "KILLER BLIND" are there to start running.
Yeah, that happened to me against a recent demo match. Didn't even give me the points for blinding, I don't know how this even happened.
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@KingMyers said:
I was on board with this till you said oni is balanced then I had a huge laugh, as a solo que player 9/10 when I got against oni he just ruins my team then I either hatch or die right with them, it doesn't help that there's literally only like 1 map onis bad on the rest he shines super nova, as for the big difference in killers I agree nurse pyra slinger spirit freddy and oni are huge compared to the rest of the scrap heap sadly
Okay well, Oni is balanced. He is very strong but it isn't impossible to outplay him. What you should do is take advantage of his shortcomings. For example, if he decides to dash and you just passed a wall, hide just past the corner. He will have to stop dashing to hit you or miss a swing to get you. If you are found first, just drop every pallet early and take no chances to greed. He will not get a hit on you if you play it safe meaning it will take him a long time to get his power. It is hard in solo queue, but not impossible. I myself have faced quite a few oni's and it was challenging but not impossible. The Oni thing you have to worry about is the skill of your otherwise trash solo queue teammates.
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@DaKnight said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1819090#Comment_1819090
So, if the guy is going into like 50 games as perkless / addonless clown, against red rank survivors, and winning like 47 of the matches or something; it's not viable to play clown because of the 2 or 3 good teams you run across? Yes when you hit the meta object SWF it's going to be painful, but whatever. You can probably still manage a 2k, which is a draw and balanced in the eyes of the devs.
If you only care about 4king every game you can just play Spirit / Nurse / Freddy /etc. Not every killer needs to be Spirit level.
Sorry, I forgot that I didn't edit that. I forgot to say that it would actually be fine after watching a little bit of that guy, that okay yeah average killers might not be as bad as I thought. If we won't be able to fully rework most killers to be high on the tier list, then we could at least give most of the killers just a lil' bit of a buff or two so they are just a bit more viable than before. Since that guy did get quite a bit of 4k's with clown, I guess killers don't need as much of an overhaul to their powers at least right now.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1819116#Comment_1819116
I disagree that most people don't like the average killer. Just look at the most recent stats that we have:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/PKOFFD9D1XWN/20201022-133106.jpg
As you can see, killers like Wraith, Legion, Trapper, Myers and Doctor are even more popular than the top tiers like Nurse, Blight, Oni, Freddy and Spirit. So average killers are pretty popular right now.
Giving Wraith more than being a M1 killer may be nice, but we must be careful not to make every killer super hard for people who are starting now at the game. Or else we'll probably have a killer shortage.
I feel like we already have a shortage of killers, or at least a little less than we should. Just look at the average survivor queue time.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1819128#Comment_1819128
Actually, the devs mentioned that they were playing with the idea of Wraith being completely invisible. We don't know if they committed to the idea, but they mentioned the possibility.
Yeah, I think they are going to implement a certain range of being able to see the Wraith while cloaked which sounds great.
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@TheClownIsKing said:
I know I’ve already commented, but again, a Clown that knows what they’re doing is scary and devastating. I’m not inflating my own ego here. Every once in a while I’ll be up against a Clown that isn’t an idiot that just spams bottles, and actually know how to shut down every single escape option, and makes the chase completely hopeless. Clowns like this stomp the survivors. They simply can’t get repairs done fast enough to outpace how frequently Clown is downing people.
Unless they pre-throw the pallet and hold W across the map while dodging the bottles if they are good.
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Legion since he can keep survivors injured very easily and if you know what jukes to watch out for then you should never miss your attacks.
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Learn how to be looped efficiently. So loop a survivor where you force them to not get a fast vault if you can. Also moonwalking and hiding your red stain. Do you know that red light that is in front of you as a killer? Well if you turn around (away from the wall since it goes through objects) it might confuse the survivor, you can choose to do it smoothly without stopping or you can do it and immediately moonwalk. Loop as tight as you can on a loop to prevent the survivor from getting an extra loop or two. Unless you have PGTW, there really is no point in kicking a generator. You should instead go after the survivors immediately and if you are absolutely sure no one is around, then you can kick a generator to get some regression. I recommend playing a killer like Wraith if you are daring or another killer if you would like.
Play the Wraith with a windstorm addon, any tier will work. You could then use another windstorm addon or bone clapper, I recommend the bone clapper. The reason I recommend Wraith is because he is a very basic m1 killer and he will practically force you to learn how to mind game properly at normal loops if you want kills. With the bone clapper, you want to come from unexpected places, like maybe in a loop instead of uncloaking at the pallet as you would without the bone clapper, use the windstorm addon to quickly sneak around behind a wall really close to a generator to catch survivors off guard.
You should slug when you are really in need of pressure or you know you can leave the survivor on the ground for just a lil' bit and get an extra hit or even down on another survivor. You want to hook them once you feel like someone is about to get up.
If you want to "git gud" so to speak you should probably upload a game or two of you playing as killer and have a few experienced killers review it.
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Well, note that a med kit will use 16 charges to heal you. This means a yellow medkit will heal you one health state and a half of that. This means you could bring an addon that gives you 8 or more charges. Bringing bandages would be the most efficient though. So a yellow medkit will heal you 2 times with this. As for flashlights and other items there really is no way to have an exact number since we are only given a bar that lets us know if it is running out.
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Drop pallets early, and hold m1. Don't ever greed against a clown. And by greed, I mean looping when you think he won't throw bottles.
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@ALostPuppy said:
Sort of agree but your statement about Wraith needing more than just a couple of add-ons as default is kinda wrong imo. With just windstorm Wraith goes from complete garbage to good. Which is why I hope they're not just making him invisible from a distance with his upcoming buffs. All he needs is a faster movement speed up to between yellow and green windstorm levels and he instantly becomes a good killer. I really hope they listen to the community on this one just this once, I might actually start playing Wraith again. Ever since I ran out of windstorm add-ons on him he's become unplayable, and I need to put BPs in other killers.
You might be right. Having a windstorm base kit would probably be good enough as it is, but he still needs more. He could also use better addons as well. He is good with windstorm but not good enough with just that alone. Allowing survivors to not see him from a range of 16 meters would be a good change because it is pretty lame how survivors can just see you across the map while "undetectable".
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@[Deleted User] said:
What's the problem of having "average" killers? Oni is arguably the 4th strongest killer in the game right now, only under the most boosted ones that are Nurse, Spirit and Hag, but he's also one of the most challenging and most mechanic intense killers in the game. The killers you mentioned (Plague and Doctor) are on fine spots because they are a bit harder to play due to having antiloop mechanics but nothing as hard as Oni or Huntress let's say.
Wraith can never be buffed to his level because he's waaaay easier to play than Oni. If you just buff him and Clown relentlessly we'll have Freddy 2.0.
If you just give him basekit Windstorm, true invisibility from range and maybe a lower reappearence animation he'll be in a fine spot. Wraith isn't meant to be a chasing killer, he specializes on getting surprise hits when coming from unexpected angles.
Having most killers being average is kind of boring no? I guarantee you that most people like killers who are fun to play as well as strong and effective. Having most of the roster being meh as they are now but a little worse is not that great. Seriously, all you would see are the good ones. There is no problem with them but it is just "Ugh I wish I went against some new killers, I have to play the same as I did last time again. I wish we had some variety". I did mention Plague and Doctor being average, but that is just it, they really are average. For Doc all you do is pre throw pallets and predict his shocks. For Plague, only cleanse when it is really inconvenient for the killer and if she has no corrupted pools then just don't cleanse.
I wouldn't say he could never be buffed to Oni's level. Instead, I would say that it would be really hard. I feel like giving Wraith some sort of skill would help with this. A new player could still understand him and play him decently, but a good player could play him to his fullest. How would I do this? I have absolutely no clue. But it is not impossible. For example, look at the Huntress. Even a new huntress can land some shots by playing a few games.
You might be right though I don't really know what the best course of action would be. But does anyone really?
Giving the Wraith windstorm and true invisibility is a great start. Who knows right now? I could be totally wrong and this could be really good for him, but right now we don't. We can make a prediction though because we are dealing with BHVR on this.
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@AChaoticKiller said:
You can't expect 20 killers all with a different power to be similar in strength. like how is a killer like pig who is mainly for stalling supposed to be equal to nurse a heavy chase killer.
There are only so many concepts for chase based powers(the strongest) before they become too similar and it's pretty difficult to make two completely different powers such as Oni's and Wraith's equal in viability. There will always be a few that are just better than the others as well as a few that are worse.
I don't expect them to be, but I wish they were. We all know how BHVR is and this is just a discussion. I guarantee you there are different concepts that are really bizarre and creative, but just haven't been thought of yet. What if instead of Wraith at most having good mobility (using both windstorm addons) he had something that could give him a variation of this that is pretty much both of course with some sort of drawback. Look at p head for example. If he has 3 gen set up and someone forces him into a chase on the other side of the map, he can send them to a cage which brings that person back to the 3 gen disrupting everyone there. This doesn't give him pressure through being fast, but rather sending a practically hooked person to the other side of the map. Seriously, you have to admit that was pretty creative. Though this would only work if the survivor was tormented which is his drawback, or weakness I guess.
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@TheClownIsKing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1819025#Comment_1819025
I’ve never done perkless and add on-less, but I frequently go totally add on-less as Clown, and do silly things like only equip one perk like Mindbreaker, or Zanshin, or Monstrous Shrine 😂
I like doing silly stuff like this too. I have said before that I like to play doctor with hangman's trick (or forced penance), iron grasp, agitation, and mad grit.