Yords
Yords
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@DarKaron said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1826243#Comment_1826243
There is actually a tell for the timing as soon as Oni is ready.
I haven't played him in a hot second, but I believe that it was that when you see his hands flash with blood, you can let go for the instadown.
His hands flash when being able to insta down? That is interesting.
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You don't have to fully hold the m1 to get an insta down hit, just make sure you don't go for a quick swing during this mode. For an insta down, there is kind of no way to explain it specifically, but you can hold m1 down for a second and then let go while flicking your mouse towards a survivor trying to spin you around to hit them much faster. This is when you are not dashing.
When you are dashing, you just have to get a feel for the movement of the swing.
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I think weak killers and bad map design are the biggest turnaways when it comes to new players choosing killer. Strong killers can still manage on good maps for survivors, but weak killers can not do anything if the survivors are good.
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"DBD is the most balanced game of its kind" More like one of the only ones of its kind.
People say dbd is survivor sided for a good reason. Survivors, in general, have so much going for them. The ultimate strategy for them is to split up on gens, that's it. Since most maps aren't designed well or are too big for a few of them, you can't really pressure all of them at once. Most of the maps are survivor sided because there is just too much for survivors to work with. It won't happen EVERY game you load into as some maps with a different setup can be a bit more favorable to the killer, but this doesn't happen nearly enough.
Then there are perks to deal with. Survivors have quite the selection when it comes to meta perks. The most powerful of them all (and arguably the most broken) is DS. Followed by the usual, SB, DH, adrenaline, BT, unbreakable, and deliverance. Even better, all of these perks can stack of 4 different survivors so now you will have 4 survivors to deal with that have the best survivor perks.
Notice how there is quite a selection of extremely powerful perks for survivors. 3 of them are just straight-up second chance perks if you look at them a different way such as DS, unbreakable, deliverance, dead hard, and I guess adrenaline (although this one is more reasonable, it only feels unfair if 3 or more people is running it).
Now, what do killers have to use? Ruin, undying, bbq, thrilling tremors, pop, corrupt intervention, tinkerer, STBFL, sloppy butcher, and infectious fright. At first, it sounds like a lot right? Well, these perks maybe a healthy selection of perks to choose from, but the problem isn't the perks. The perks are just fine, fantastic even. The problem is map design and the killers of low tiers.
Think of someone like Wraith running idk a windstorm addon and bone clapper with corrupt intervention, STBFL, sloppy butcher, and infectious fright. This is a very good build for the Wraith, but he is still Wraith. He doesn't have much chase potential or map pressure ability. This means you are going to have to play near perfectly against a good team of survivors to possibly get 2 kills on average. Imagine this on a more open map such as the Macmillian estate. Survivors can literally see you across the map even when "cloaked" and "undetectable".
Killer doesn't really have any second chance perks except for NOED and I guess bloodwarden.
NOED is a pretty badly designed perk, I think we can all agree on that. And no, don't give me that "just do bones" talk because if that were true undying + ruin wouldn't be a problem.
Blood warden is kind of a second chance, but it is very situational as it requires you to hook a person in the endgame collapse. But even then, it lasts for only one minute.
If the devs truly balanced perks, DS wouldn't be a problem.
Skill practice and perks can only do so much at times, it will definitely help, but it is not enough in the current game.
PS: Just because you yourself witnessed a slaughter, that does not mean that killers must be better than survivors. It was pretty clear that the bubba you faced got lucky and downed everyone because they made the mistake of grouping up.
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Yeah, as weak as this is on its own in solo queue, in SWF it is much more powerful. There really is not full-on counter to this one and it is kinda dumb. It's almost like DS where sometimes you just have to assume someone has it and slug them which is bad for you because you don't get a hook state you should have.
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I didn't choose keys because they are already getting reworked next as mentioned by the devs already.
I chose weak killers because the reason you don't see a huge cast of killers at high ranks is because no one wants to play them. They don't really want to play a weak killer who can't do their job effectively.
Maps should be reworked after killers because the good killers can still manage on stronger maps for survivors, buffing the weaker ones would make them more viable and probably inspire or make players more enticed to play killer.
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I think everyone is desperate at this point for a clear straight answer to anything, myself included.
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Break LOS and treat him as a normal killer when looping.
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@AggressiveFTW said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1824881#Comment_1824881
I mean, you would assume that someone is getting chased if you've been sitting on a gen for 3 minutes, so how would they need to be so careful about adding stuff like that? I get that it can be bad if solos get extremely close to SWF level, but I bet they never will. How would it be overwhelming for killers if survivors knew which survivor is getting chased? I bet it wouldn't change anything.
I have proposed an idea before on a thread where I said that the devs can release a PTB build for the players to test if things like this would be too OP or something. I think experiments would be a great way of testing things like this, cause right now we are just predicting what would be powerful and what will not.
Yeah a test would be good to find out for sure.
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Is it really that big of a deal? Legion is already a lower-tier killer, so it shouldn't be that much of a problem.
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Sucks when a killer actually has the ability to kill you right?
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@AggressiveFTW said:
I'd say that UI indicators are the thing I want most. Being able to see who's being chased by the killer and what your teammates are doing would be a great way to decrease the gap between solo queue and SWF.
I would be careful with adding things that let everyone know certain things in solo queue. There definitely needs to be something added so that solo queue isn't as bad, but nothing to push it over the edge. If you do something like make kindred base kit, sure that would help solo queue survivors, but for the killers it would also make them feel like they are up against a SWF group most games.
There is already a lack of killers because it is just not fun for a lot of people due to stress. If an indicator was added for solo queue that showed someone in a chase, that would kind of be overwhelming for killers right? If all killers were strong and viable then I would be more lenient on adding the indicator described or kindred as base kit, but right now we should be careful on what to add.
And of course, this is if the devs ever buff the weaker killers, or even add some of these ideas.
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I made a discussion about this a while back
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1824624#Comment_1824624
You should be able to walk around the Survivor with a Flashlight. There isnt really a Perk that works against Lightburn, but you can avoid it.
Which does not mean that this mechanic should stay. It should also not be replaced by something different, it should just be removed since it only affects two Killers and is really outdated.
True, it is very easy to avoid the flashlight burn even with more than one person using it, but the fact that this is even a thing is pretty dumb.
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Yeah, I have noticed this in auto haven. Pretty friggin busted for the killers.
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*People who are toxic which can be either side are the worst
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@[Deleted User] said:
I really don't see DS as hugely problematic until more than 2 survivors have it in the same trial. But that could be said about a lot of perks like Unbreakable or Adrenaline for instance.
There has to be some sort of anti-tunnel mechanism in place. I've played in tournaments where DS was banned and the kill rates are staggering. Believe me, you don't want to play against a good killer who happens to be sweating when there is no DS in play.
Tunneling is technically the most powerful thing you can do as a killer though. I will admit though if the killer plays well and tunnels effectively, it can be kind of sucky for a survivor that doesn't know what they are doing.
Having an anti-tunneling mechanic seems pretty counterproductive to the killer when their objective is to kill as many people as they can and as fast as possible before the gens are done. If that was in place, I don't think the game would do so well. Killers already are fighting an uphill battle in the average match. An anti-tunneling mechanic would be a huge detriment and steer even more people away from playing killer.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1824416#Comment_1824416
Did I say that playing Survivor is difficult? Nope. DBD is an easy game on both sides.
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1824057#Comment_1824057
like survivors takes skill. hold W, look behind for a second, and press space a bit, otherwise hold m1. literally the easiest gameplay that boils down to knowing when to stop looping and press space, then repeat. not to mention exhaustion perks, second chances, communications.
undying is another example of easy survivor gameplay, all you have to do is hold m1 for a bit, that's it, you just gotta know where the totems are which can be assisted with small game or hunch. killer has to apply pressure and take control of 4 survivors at once, and now they have to protect their hex totems as well, that's not easy at all
The game can feel easy at times. But both killer and survivor take a good amount of skill to play effectively. Killer without a doubt is noticeably harder since you are one person playing against 4 survivors.
Killers have to kill as many survivors as they can while preventing them from getting generators done. This is where the killer pressures survivors off of generators and with each killer being different in terms of power, it can become quite difficult to use a certain killer's power effectively and definitely takes skill across all killers to play for the most part. The most basic thing all killers can do is pressure survivors by being in chases. However, each killer is different as I have said, and takes a different playstyle to manage.
Survivors are much simpler, but this does not mean they take very little skill to play. Survivor is all about maximizing the amount of distance between you and the killer in a chase as much as you can as efficiently as possible. This can take hours upon hours to learn and takes most people a long time to learn how to do well.
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@CountVampyr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1823566#Comment_1823566
No it doesn’t. It’s so situational that it’s basically a wasted perk slot 95% of the time which is why I never use it. If you can’t work around it as the killer then you’re too in the heat of the moment and not thinking clearly enough. DS is part of the game. You need to adjust to its existence or play something else. Plenty of killers are getting 4Ks with it just the way it is.
You yourself may never use it, but I guarantee you that most people do especially at high ranks. Usually, I would say that I stay calm under pressure and think clearly as well. It is not a wasted perk most of the time because you still guarantee that there is an obsession. This is enough to make the killer slug a recently hooked person at most which is more beneficial to the survivors since the killer misses out on a hook state. I have adjusted to its existence, and I love this game so why would I play something else? Just because killers still get 4k's all the time doesn't mean this perk is fine even when dealing with it.
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@Saitamfed said:
Excuse me but What's the point to say Almo everytime? Just because he's on the designed perk team doesn't mean he's the only one. Give the guy a break.
Maybe, but this is the same guy who nerfed pop because you could spend too much time doing other things and still have it available. He is also the guy who has mentioned: "clown is underrated". I say his name because someone else did the same and got a reply from him. However it was a shot in the dark really, I mentioned his name because I was hoping he would reply to this thread like the other person. I am kind of desperate for an answer and I knew I shouldn't have expected a reply, but it was worth a try. You have to admit, the design team could learn a few things about their game though. But for now. we will continue to have faith in them, I am sure they can turn things around.
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Sorry to hear that you think killers are threatening with certain perks.
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@Hoodied said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1824344#Comment_1824344
I believe this was from the recent stream
Thanks, I will look around for it.
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@getstunneledalot said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1824287#Comment_1824287
There have been plenty of reasons in this thread alone without counting all 2 million other ds threads that explain its counter and you have only said no to those so why should I give you a real argument? Hell you were even wrong with how many times ds was changed.
True I was wrong about how many times DS was changed, but I said I was "pretty sure" because I wasn't 100% certain. I did indeed, forget about the other nerfs because it has been quite a while since we have even remembered them.
The usual arguments that apparently "counter" DS include slugging the DS user, or to "git gud and stop tunneling". There aren't real counters to it. Why? Because you are basically letting the survivors get away for free and letting them heal or do gens. I disagreed with many of these posts because some of them were just wrong. I am not saying no because it is a case of "I'm right and you're wrong", I am disagreeing to prove a point and invoke thorough discussion.
If you would be so kind as to list all the "counters" to DS so that we can have a real discussion, that would be very much appreciated.
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@Hoodied said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1822398#Comment_1822398
Probably gonna be across the line of "SelfCare used more" or something like that
@Yords Devs are looking into fixing the abuses with DS that gives a survivor a 60 second shield from death
That is reassuring to hear, but where did you get this info from?
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@Drywatr said:
Pgtw can be used several times and decimates gen progress. Ds can be used once. I dont use it myself but you killers need to get some skill and stop tunneling. In all my killer matchs ds has cost me the match exactly once and thats because i played poorly. Its a non issue for good killers
At most, pop can work 5 or 6 times in a match. All it does is slow the survivors down a little bit if they are decent to good survivors.
DS while being able to be used only once, it can stack on all survivors and one use is all it needs. The 5 second stun is incredibly powerful if you also count the time it took for the killer to get to grab the DS user. Think of this the way Scott Jund put it as he made a great example of how powerful 5 seconds can be for even a decent team of survivors. He said "Think about it this way, for every second the survivors play vs every second the killer plays, multiply the survivors seconds by 4 since there are 4 survivors." It lets us know just how strong survivors can be since over the course of a game that second turns into 4 to 8 to 12 every second there are 4 survivors alive. This also lets us know how much progress survivors can get done on anything.
Ok good to know you play killer and have seen what DS can do, but it's important to know that it does more than just that. Just its existence makes killers think twice about picking up a recently hooked survivor if there is an obsession. Maybe playing some more killer could help you understand how lame DS can be at times.
Tunneling is a strategy that is used by many skillful killers. I myself do this sometimes. I will admit, tunneling someone off hook and trying to mori them (or at least hook them twice) isn't exactly "skill" and they could definitely learn a few things. You can't just tell people to git gud and stop tunneling. What else is the killer supposed to do? Good killers will only tunnel the obsession to slug them if it is convenient, they will only slug them at most. It is not usually their fault for being in a position to tunnel a survivor, and remember it's not like killers have that many options unlike survivor. DS is still an issue for good killers and even the best of killers.
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Please at least try to defend your argument.
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@That1name said:
The pop can be used more than once but DS if you use it it’s gone.
True, but as good as pop is, it will only slow down the survivors and 90% of the time it will only get to regress 20 seconds worth of gen time. This is good, but not enough sometimes if you have to play around DS. At most, you will only get to use pop 5 or 6 times in a match. DS may have one use, but one use can be all it needs to keep the "tunneled" survivor alive for a little while longer or for the rest of the match along with helping the team out by stunning the killer for 5 seconds.
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@BigBrainMegMain said:
lol this thread is a joke.
?.
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@Ivaldi said:
How many times are you guys going to beg for a nerf? It's literally been nerfed over and over and over again.
We are going to beg for a nerf until it actually gets a proper nerf. The nerfs it has gotten aren't enough to change the sheer power this perk can have.
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@[Deleted User] said:
There are ways to play around it.
It encourages a healthier playstyle in a general sense.
If you're good enough it doesn't matter at all (For both sides).
The only edge-cases you (and I) can think of can be played around as the Killer or is the Killers fault.
Anytime I've decided to use it when I've played Survivor, more often than not it has just been a wasted perk slot.
My only issue is the total duration, but if it were any lower it wouldn't be worth the perk slot.
Any statement about DS not being an anti-tunneling perk is horsecrud. Even if it's not the intention that's what it's slotted for.
The main use it serves is as a crutch for that unlucky Survivor that gets camped because your group genrushed the Killer (or you've got a Killer that likes to Tunnel). And at that point, the issue isn't DS. It's just the most convenient scapegoat.
If DS is not an anti-tunnel perk, what kind of perk could it possibly be other than a crutch? You even say that it is good against a camping and tunneling killer who you just genrushed.
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@Thasard said:
It. Was. Nerfed.
Welcome. To. The. Game.
They've already addressed this perk when it used to be a given to the obsession before even first hook, and there was this dribble that killer's did to try to take it away. Now they just slug. Where's my paused timer when left on the ground?
It needs another nerf. It is still too powerful. And why should you get a pause timer if slugged?
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You do realize that blendettes can probably hide in them better right? lol
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I like it when they are funny but still play normally, like if they nod their heads at you.
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me 2 I miss being sawed to death by a killer sprinting after you
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@Kbot22 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1821268#Comment_1821268
Ds/unbreakable also has the risk that you'll never get to use it. I stopped running ds because I legitimately get use out of it like 1 out of 100 games. Killers don't pick up ds if they're good and you don't need ds if killers are bad. Ruin undying is insanely strong and feels awful as survivor. Either you spend like 3 gens worth of time trying to break totems or risk having your gen time completely reset (gens are the most boring thing in game). I've once gotten my gen reset from 90+ percent 3-4 times in a match while my team dies. With 4 gens left.
Yeah, ruin + undying can feel pretty oppressive and there's not much we can do about it. The thing is that it is very RNG reliant to be really good. It is either really good or okay for the killer and they have to pressure survivors correctly to get full usage out of it. Technically, you don't even have to run DS since if there's an obsession, the killer will slug instead of committing to a full-on tunnel. You don't even have to use DS if the killer slugs you, and your team can just pick you up if this is the case.
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Survivor: Decisive strike, dead hard, no mither, second wind, and deja vu.
Killer: Undying (slight nerf only), gearhead, Hex: blood favor, and NOED.
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@awsome_predator said:
Couldn't disagree really as u said with no add-ons however flip that and give wraith imo his 2 best add-ons the silent bell and the purple all seeing mud and u have a top tier killer can use mind games at pallets where there are clear blind spots and survivors even good ones can't anticipate what u going to do like are u unloaking or waiting to catch a better position love wraith and before all the haters say he rubbish I say try with those add-ons and u will see how fun he can be and also gets kills at the high ranks but ofc the top tier killers are immense providing u know how to use them otherwise u may aswel play billyboi
Could you be a bit more clear with this comment please?
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@Ghoste said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1822527#Comment_1822527
I agree, I'm not trying to argue the combo is healthy, and certainly it does give too much benefit when it does come into play.
Although, do you think perks that have an impact just by existing are so bad? Look at Power Struggle for example. Not a great perk by any means, but it will cause Killers to never walk through a pallet when carrying someone again. Is that unhealthy for the game? (Genuinely asking your opinion, I'm not sure on this one). Personally I feel knowing that perks like these exist and playing around them properly is the difference between a good Killer and a bad one.
I think that DS is probably the only perk that is powerful just by existing and I guess power struggle could be, but it is far more situational. Power struggle is an odd one and if combined with tenacity it can also create a lose-lose situation for the killer now that I think about it. Power struggle when used with tenacity is kind of like a free unbreakable if you think about it. I don't mean to sound entitled, but it can create a pretty helpless situation if it happens to the killer. I got hit with this the other day, I wanted to cry ;(. The only difference is that this one is more situational, but it kind of has the same effect. I forgot about power struggle honestly, I think it might be similar to DS.
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@Felnex said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1822493#Comment_1822493
I know. That's why I said in brackets that tunneling was still an extremely effective strategy. I don't see how Unbreakable+DS is "abuse", that's a very negative term for perk synergy. The way I see it, those perks synergise well and allow a Survivor to keep playing the game rather than get tunneled out of it ASAP. You should not call it a negative term "abuse" without first proving why it's a bad thing.
Just because other people do things (compare keys and moris, perks to perks) does not mean it's an okay thing to do. I'm allowed to call out flawed reasoning when I think i see it! But I do apologize if it was aggressive.
It's fine btw just be a bit more careful when writing things which is something I clearly didn't do on that post about kobeing in people's faces post. That one got a bit out of hand and it wasn't my intention to stir up some heat.
Anyway, when I mentioned "abuse" of DS, I meant that it can be used to create lose-lose situations for the killer that are too powerful to survivors. Jumping in a locker is something that should be considered an abuse of DS because if you grab them you get stunned and they get away. If you slug them but they have unbreakable, you might get rid of unbreakable, but they still come out on top in this circumstance because you still didn't get to hook them and people are getting gens done elsewhere. If you just leave them, then they heal and do a generator. I know tunneling and camping are really lame strategies, but they still are effective and it can sometimes be the killer's only hope of getting a kill or more. If I am playing either side, I will do what I must to win. As a killer, tunneling a survivor if it is either convenient or I kind of have to in order to make a comeback. But say I tunnel a survivor off the hook and they jump in a locker I will feel helpless. If they use unbreakable, that just feels wrong to me since I practically wasted my time slugging them. It just feels helpless as a killer in this situation, and it is a helpless circumstance.
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@Ghoste said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1822425#Comment_1822425
He does have a point. You can run DS + Unbreakable and not get the chance to use them at all.
Also LOL @ him getting infinite looped on Haddonfield because they turned Bloodlust off.
True. But if you think about it, DS doesn't really need to be used. Think of it more as reassurance and with unbreakable you can get away scott free. Most killers who are good slug the person who was recently unhooked because they assume they're running DS. Just the fear of it alone is enough you don't even have to run it if there is another obsession perk, and running this with unbreakable makes this situation tip in your favor. Also, I hope he figured out that Haddonfield was unbalanced lol.
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@latigresa said:
DS was nerfed multiple times in the past. People complain forever.
Pretty sure it was one time. People complain because it is still a big issue since the nerf wasn't enough. It wasn't even really a nerf, more of a change.
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@KateDunson said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1822460#Comment_1822460
Fixed. Well imo who tunnel is bad at the games in ganeral
Well, that isn't the most accurate statement to make. A person who tunnels is not bad at the game in general. Unless they spend the whole match purposely looking for you, then yeah I am pretty sure they could learn a thing or two. But what if a killer does it because it is convenient? If a good killer tunnels it's because the unhooked survivor made a mistake by being in the wrong place (they would only slug that survivor too), or the saviors' mistake for unhooking when the killer is still close. A good killer will not tunnel if it isn't convenient unless they absolutely have to.
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@Felnex said:
DS is a healthy perk because everyone agrees getting tunneled is among the most anti-fun (yet still extremely effective strats) a killer can do.
It allows Survivors a way to stay in the game for an appropriate length (That's why it's 60 seconds instead of last hook) and deters Killers from tunneling. This is a good thing. Survivors are allowed to play.
Comparing it to other perks is useless because Survivor and Killer play very differently, that's a poor way to make an argument. "Pop was nerfed to 45, why not DS too?" all you're doing is showing what a terrible dev you'd make. Thinking it must be tit-for-tat.
Tunneling may be boring for the survivor, but it is one of the few things killers can actually do to get the upper hand, it is not their fault either that it is best for them to tunnel many times. This game isn't exactly in a good spot in terms of balance. Like I have said DS can be abused very easily by jumping in a locker or using unbreakable with it. Also, if I hook a survivor and then hook a survivor who was recently unhooked (this does happen) am I a tunneler?
There is no need to be aggressive about this. I thought that people compared survivor and killer things all the time, look at keys and mori's for example.
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@KateDunson said:
Almo forgive this pleb for being mad at a perk that can be countered without camping
I think you meant to say "tunneling" here. Also, sorry for "tunneling" a survivor off a hook when they were literally rescued in front of me or they are in a bad spot, that would give me an advantage as a killer and I sincerely apologize for that. Also, not "tunneling" a survivor is counter-productive as the killer. Without getting into it, it is a legitimate strategy. I am also not "mad", just curious.
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@Zephinism said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/PQ0S2O66UEUS/screenshot-26.png
Got your DS thread planned out for tomorrow too?
I think I am good... also I am not the only one who would like a response. That was kind of unnecessary too.
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@thisisntmax said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1822061#Comment_1822061
Me and my swf all equip those perks specifically as a :) to undying ruin killers. If it is an undying ruin killer, we gen rush and forego saving to give them quick games. If it isn't, we play normally. So to answer your question, yes I am, and I love using it to see killer reactions.
Do you mean you run the small pp build all the time? It seems you are using ruin + undying users as an excuse for it. But hey, I can't tell you how to play. It just seems a bit weird how you say we only run DS + unbreakable against killers who use ruin + undying when you don't even know if they are using it.
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I am going to miss impossible skill check doctor, the snap out of it skill checks were part of the fun :(
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I hope so
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@EvanSnowWolf said:
You are really going out on a limb here.
10/10
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Dogs