UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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@Rudjohns said:
Apparently experienced players can't have nice things
I do have to ask man... do you genuinely consider having a method of completely neutralising a killers powers with literally no effort or skill from yourself a "nice thing"?
Because not gonna lie... rendering a killer nearly completely helpless sounds boring beyond belief to me... like mobile phone auto battler level boring... if a Killer has no fangs, how is it any entertainment whatsoever to beat them?
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961561#Comment_3961561
The timer in question is the bleed out timer. We voted 1/4 the timer before you can abandon remember? Is the scenario changed to immediately being able to abandon?
Personally I'm not a fan of a lot of these Abandon features; as more and more of them get added, there comes more and more "what if" scenarios, and if we get too liberal adding abandon features, we will wind up back with the SoH problem, where players just keep quitting on a dime at the earliest convenience... Unhook attempts ofc had to be basically removed completely because players just can't be trusted with it...
However I do agree things like this are a problem.
I am still trying to peddle my suggestion for a mechanism where after being slugged for so long (say 30s?), the survivor has recovered enough where using the rush button allows the slugged player to crawl faster, but at the cost of making louder grunts of noise and bleeding out faster… where they are using the last of their energy to drag themselves anywhere they can...
Would help with grief 4 man slugging, slugging for the 4k to give hatch, and would also give survivors not trying to quit a mechanic they could make use to try and maneuver to a location where their teammates can try and recover in a little more safety.
It's also thematically on point... having a sort of "Do or Die" feel to it.
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Unfortunately this is a strategy born of an oversight in Hags trap design that players who know about it can exploit to negate her traps.
The trap pulls your camera to face the Hag trap. The point of this is to ensure the player sees the trap jump scare and disorient the Survivor... and this works well at achieving those goals.
Sadly, you can completely circumvent this by turning your camera to the front of your survivor and holding back to run towards the screen and away from the direction your facing. When the Hag trap yoinks your camera to face the trap, you're already holding back to run the opposite way, so you automatically run away from the trap.
I have been pondering creating a Hag thread to update her, and this was a mechanic I wanted to address. I don't wanna get rid of the camera yoink, because it is pretty cool as a horror mechanic... but I would address this problem by capping the amount the camera can turn to ~30-45 degrees.
This makes it no different for the way most players interact with traps, but for players using this strat above, it is far more difficult to effectively turn away, as unless you're very careful, you're not sure which way you're gonna turn, and are just as likely to run into a wall, or not turn enough to avoid the hit.
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Interesting watching Hag bounce around. I was under the impression Hag was pretty universally disliked by Survivors. Legion is also surprisingly high 😶
Skull Merchant hate is wild to me. Her drones basically do nothing so you just use her drones to be a 4.6 Undetectable m1 killer. She is basically a worse version of Wraith now, but unable to do any of the things that make Wraith dangerous and disliked by some people.
Pig love is surprising... after so many people were supporting that 30s timer increase in her last set of changes, kinda got the feeling people hated her... 🐽
I enjoy my games vs. Killers most of the time, just the killers that scored lower often have really cheesy or lame strategies they can use, frequent moments where you just can't avoid a hit, or are otherwise capable of (and often using) mean and obnoxious builds.
I wish I could place Hag higher myself... on the rare occasion I see a Hag, she catches 1 survivor and traps the crap out of hook... and aomwonenin AoloQ always falls for it. When I play Hag, I always focus on maintaining my Web, and a good Hag is lots of fun and has me constantly on edge... but I've only ever seen 1 or 2 other players do this and play Hag properly... and that really sucks 😕
Singularity almost found himself lower... but... a lot of his nastier combos keep getting nerfed, and not many Singularity's use them in my MMR. Nurse is another outlier, cause in my MMR, I still quite often get some pretty fun Nurse games.
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@Shroompy said:
idk, I like the "put it all on red" kind of mentality the perk gives me to immediately go into 2nd
Did the math on it, a full luck loadout gives you a 75% chance to unhook yourself. If 2 players bring UTA and Salty Lips, jumps to 90%.
Luck builds are kinda scary man 😶😶😶😶
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@thrawn3054 said:
It doesn't exist really. Botany got a small buff and people lost their minds.
To be fair, that was mostly me ranting in these forums... 😏
And my issue with Botany is more the principle, rather than the actual strength. In every game I've ever played, I've hated having 1 option that trumps all other options... I enjoy finding quirky and unique things in games, and the niche value in the different options available to me...
So when one of the best healing perks in the game loses literally the only downside it has, so that the niche value of every other healing perks is completely eradicated... I got a little upset 😏
I've accepted it now and just banned myself from using Botany nowadays, so I'm chilling out again 😅
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Fearmonger is pretty good on Wraith vs. Sprint Burst.
And Kaneki is a pretty poor benchmark to shoot for.
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The part of this that's worse to my mind, is the survivor side can take a different offering each, say the Game, Badham, Eyrie of Crows, Azarovs and have a 60-80% shot (depending on realm rng) at getting a favourable map... whereas killer is always stuck at a measly 20% (less accounting for realm rng) no matter what.
Now ofc this doesn't really happen, at least not as far as I've seen thus far, but the point is you CAN do this... and it's not really fair.
I personally feel like map offerings should be 33% for killer, and 33% for survivor (split between all offerings brought for the survivor side if they bring multiple offerings).
This would mean you have a 1/3 chance each of either side getting their map, and a 1/3 chance of a neutral map... not an awful conversion rate so the maps are not a complete waste of an offering slot vast majority of the time, but also not good enough to rely on it to abuse it either... and is completely fair for both sides.
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He may be onto something:
The lore for this is palpable... escapes death list... because the Entity takes them in Deaths place 🔥🔥🔥🔥
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Great to see a fellow Pig main, and p100 no less 🤘
Glad to see Amanda getting buffs 👉🐽
Though I do have some thoughts on your suggestions here...
Fix her bad rng for traps: survivors should NEVER be able to remove traps on the first try! Survivors can now only remove a jigsaw bear trap on the second, third and fourth try
I disagree with this, as the single head trap removal is something I actually want to see and keep an eye out for as Pig. If I get a 1 search trap, especially early on, it means the remaining traps are one 3 and two 4s. This is the point where my RBTs are their strongest, because Innow know that survivors with an active headtrap cannot heal, come for saves, unhooks or pickups, without running a significant risk of their head trap popping before they complete their searches... and if they DO do any of these things, I know I should pressure them off boxes. This is the point where you can really squeeze survivors and snowball your pressure... and this is an element of the Pig's game I wouldn't want to lose...
Jigsaw control generators! Starting from 70% to 99% gens that are not completed regress slowly to 70% (forcing survivors to finish generators!)
This is not necessary I feel, Pig has plenty of perks to choose from to have gen defence that can significantly overwhelm most PUG survivor teams. Her slowdown is not called the best slowdown in the game for nothing, and plenty of perks like Pop, Overcharge, Ruin, recently buffed CoB, Pain Res work very well with her kit to counter 99ing gens.
survivors with reverse bear trap cannot see jigsaw box auras anymore
Basekit Ruleset Number 2 would be a nice buff to ensure her RBTs have more venom, and pre searching would not be so good at reducing her pressure. I'm not convinced it's really needed following this quite impressive list of buffs for the moment, as potency in chase for Pig directly correlates with the pressure her RBTs can apply. However if further buffs are needed, this would be a nice one.
and can't remove a reverse bear trap until is activated! (BASEKIT)
Survivors should be able to do Jigsaw boxes though if they find them. It doesn't fit the gameplay or the Saw theme of choices to save yourself, or help the team.
If survivors are forced to complete a gen before they can do traps, then there are no decisions for Pig to make regarding placing a trap on a survivor or not, you always just place a trap, because the survivor can't do anything about it until they finish a gen, and the more survivors with active traps, the better, no exceptions. This severely dilutes the tactile skill elements of Pig's decision making... not to mention completely demolishes any and all tactile skill/decision making of survivors... as they basically have none.
Furthermore, if survivors don't have box auras from the above Ruleset Number 2, we as Pig WANT them blindly searching for pig boxes instead of doing gens... having them unable to do Pig boxes is redundant with the change to block auras as well... why block them if they can't do anything with them anyway?
Survivors with a reverse bear trap now suffers from exhaustion (basekit)
Slow Release Toxin basekit also isn't necessary, as the penalty around her traps is the inability to focus gens and the potentially game ending risks that come from taking time to heal, or unhook, or pick up a slug, while having an active bear trap, especially vs. A Pig using headtrap patterns as deacribed above in conjunction with Crate of Gearst, Tampered Timer, and/or scream builds to apply pressure.
Pig is one of the only characters that has a mechanic that actively discourages tunneling a single survivor out, but if she does want to tunnel has add-ons and perk combos to do it, and with her crouch and ambush being improved significantly, there is less add-on reliance for her overall, which does free up this add-on to be considered for use on a Pig that wants to play this playstyle. I don't really see a reason this should be made basekit as opposed to an add-on commitment.
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It always averages 3 searches per trap.
So:
- 12 searches at base overall.
- Amanda's Letter gives 6 searches overall.
- Jigsaw's Sketch/Jigsaw's Annotated Plan gives 15 searches overall.
- JS/JAP + AL gives 9 searches overall.
- JS + JAP gives 18 searches overall.
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@TheGoon224 said:
yeah but can we also have it not reveal him through walls
Have you actually tried to reveal him?
90% of the time you can't even find him without getting lucky randomly flicking through cameras and looking around blindly at walls, listening for the audio cue... unless you have an aura perk active, and even then its difficult to get the right camera... it wastes so much time trying to find him.
Getting LoS is a pipedream almost every single time... I think I've only seen him directly with my own eyes for the full duration twice... once when he was entering a door, where revealing his aura does diddly squat, and the other when he was walked round to me on the door... for which I ate a hit, and would have been better just running.
Even though the suggestion in the OP is good, I'm still not convinced its a counterplay worth using compared to just doing gens. Giving it a LoS requirement makes it borderline unusable
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I wonder if Pyramid Head cages will trigger off the hook perks? 🤔🤔🤔
I assume not... but not sure.
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@AhoyWolf said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/JO6OXRQAWZGG/hehe.png
hehe
it will probably not be as strong as I have suggessted, but ambush buffs are real!
Sick news!
Partial JMF is my guess, 4.0 m/s would be pretty sick... also curious what this dash distance will be... Workshop Grease will become even more valuable.
And her crouch/stand up will be getting better too if the speed is getting lowered... the mind games at tiles are gonna be a lot better.
Need to not get too giddy ofc... all these changes to improve chase can exponentially increase her lethality/snowball power of her RBTs... this PTB is gonna be very important for Pig I feel, and we need to be very objective and not get carried away (we don't wanna get Nerf Nuked a couple of weeks after the PTB). 😶
Scream builds especially might need to be looked at, since the better chase means more freedom.for things like Crate of Gears and Tampered Timer, and a more lethal chase combined with Infectious Fright and Phantom Fear might be a bit much...
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Fascinating... though the lack of numbers is making me anxious 😱
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I can confirm... Boil Over is a tunnelable offence no matter which killer you're playing... it's equally annoying on everyone xD
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957603#Comment_3957603
Agree.
Maybe she could get a buff to ambush as long as she has max traps in her inventory?
This would make her a lot more viable before she gets her traps down.
This could also improve Amanda's letter, which is already lacking due to the slowdown being halfed.
Mandy is motivated to get the game started, therefore her senses are heightened and her ambush is stronger.
Sounds pretty sick... a passive called "Let the Game begin"?
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@AhoyWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957603#Comment_3957603
Hmm, I think you're right, I feel like the Pig could use some buffs tho to her ambush, I just don't know what would be the best buffs to be honest.
Aye, it's tough, the issue is her ambush is pretty good, to the point most survivors wouldn't really want to challenge a good Pig on her ambush at tiles... so instead survivors who know what they're doing tend to just throw pallet and leave the tile to stop you using your ambush.
My favourite add-on combo is JMF and Worksop Grease for that reason, cause both add-ons really help you mitigate how much distance you lose if the survivors leaves tile, and in the case of JMF especially, because of the acceleration times you can crouch/stand up to bait a survivor to leave and fool them into zoning themselves for a hit.
This combo also let's you crouch just to see what the survivor does to react, so you can get a measure for the survivors behaviour without losing too much pace off the chase... which really helps getting a hit...
For ambush changes this is probably the direction I'd lean personally... 🤔
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957564#Comment_3957564
Fair enough.
If the Survivors played perfectly, you shouldn't have gotten more than two Kills. Admittedly, that's asking a lot.
Regardless, AFC has been a functional failure if it intended to prevent those circumstances and situations. If it was literally only meant to move Killers a second away from hook, then I guess it worked.
Just to be exact, 16m takes 3.47s for a 4.6 killer to walk, and faster killers or ranged killers have to be mindful of angle on the unhooked in vast majority of scenarios.
The AFC to my mind makes it so survivors are much more likely to successfully make the trade, and this works far better than it did against characters like Hillbilly, Huntress, Trickster and Bubba, because you can effectively approach from an angle the killer has to go around the hook to catch you.
This in turn makes it much easier to make use of numerous perks supposed to help/counter camping, or assist them in surviving when they take the hit on the trade, that old facecamping still stopped survivors from using, such as: -
- Desperate Measures
- Reassurance
- Borrowed Time
- Deliverance
- Overcome
- Dead Hard
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Pig is tricky to balance in this regard, because of the macro control provided by her RBTs; her ambush strength must correlate with the potential snowball value her traps provide.
If you make her ambush much faster, she basically becomes Chucky with a massive built in slowdown (8m/s is literally Chucky's dash right now).
So I'd be very reluctant to buff her this way. I feel her big problem is how reliant she is on that first chase going well... What she needs help with to my mind is getting her first trap out... once it is out, she is fine. As such, a buff to her ambush would do that by helping her first chase, but then it overtunes her once she has a trap out and she gets exponentially more chances to snowball...
As an example alternative (and I wouldn't suggest this because it'd be free value that was unearned, this is more to labour the point), if she spawned with 1 survivor trapped at the start of the trial and had say ruleset number 2 basekit, Pig would quite a lot stronger...
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@badgerman97 said:
Amanda makes yelps when she is stunned. It is the greatest thing ever
Amanda beeps...
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Agree with @SoGo and Aven_Fallen.
The Mechanics Toolbox has no niche. It has half the charges of the Commodius for not that much more repair speed, and it has half the sabotage speed as well with an awkard number of charges.
In any and all scenarios, you would either take the Commodius Toolbox or the Engineers Toolbox, and tbh its not that much improved over the standard Toolbox either (debatably worse).
I'd either delete the Mechanics Toolbox, or switch its sabotage speed with the Commodius Toolbox and give it 2 extra charges as a weaker Alex's toolbox. Tbh I dunno why the Commodius doesn't have the weakest sabotage speed period...
I would also remove the brown Worn Toolbox as well... since it has an active detriment to it for newer players.... (4 O'clock skillchecks suck with this toolbox).
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3956668#Comment_3956668
I don't know… like the problem with your idea is that she would still be pretty bad. Look at Freddy rework, while he's now in way better spot, he got a full pack of powers. And simply SM having only her drones and radar isn't enough to be good killer. Tbh I loved playing the chess merchant era version of SM the most, not because 3 genning, I've never done that, but she had multiple chase-reliant drone add ons that were reworked. Examples:
→ See survivor within drone zone
→ Within drone zone you vault and damage 40 % faster
→ survivor with claw trap break pallet upon vault
And more… I think that droning to buff her chase was the only fun time I had playing her.
Sure, and there are merits to bringing old Skull Merchant back now the anti 3-gen system is in place, but in the same breathe, her old power was still pretty much all about holding a 3 gen.
Looping was basically poop drone at tile and walking after the survivor with haste and building bloodlust for an exposed M1. The counterplay was to vault the pallet and eat an M1 hit to avoid the exposed hit, and then repeat the same zoning process/bloodlust for pallet process to get a down. It's reliant on haste to be effective and it's not especially strong, so just hard camping a hooked survivor in the.middle of a 3 gen was still the way to go for most players.
I also didn't like that design because her radar was largely superfluous... it didn't do anything really, since you got killer instinct on anyone in range of a drone, so why do I need the radar for anything other than following a claw trap survivor? What I like about a revision of 2.0 is the radar is a prominent part of her kit... and I'd personally push it further... it in conjuction with her drones should be her main tool.
Not to mention, like Freddy, that 1.0 version of SM was so hated, it isn't coming back... in fact it was so hated, it basically has put 2.0 amd the killer overall in the same position... and by and large a lot of Skull Merchant players liked the 2.0 version, but it was simply doing too much for too little interaction from the killer to be fair and interesting to the survivor side. There are a lot of nerfs here, so we can look into some buffs.
Off top of my head, something like while in 24m range of a claw trapped/scanned survivor, Skull Merchant gains 20% pallet break and/or vault speed, which in conjunction with her hinder slow, opens up her further options to capitalise on her radar tracking... but it doesn't need anything drastic.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3956631#Comment_3956631
I disagree, SM 2.0 was far away from being perfect and while some people enjoyed playing her, playing against her was same as playing against old knight. YOu got to loop, she deployed drone and bloodlusted + gain 6 % haste per scans and you get 10 % hindred. It was all the interaction with her and despite her being still insanely bad killer, because smart survivors crouched the last scan forced you to hit them the playstyle of her bloodlusting and scanning to get max speed while injuring and hindering you from holding forward was just not good design. Surely same hates from chess merchant remained, but from her holding games forever came to her getting hits and down passively by pretty much just holding w in circle, and if you wanted to do that more miserable you could bring some haste perks on top of that.
SM rework that might her be better while more fun to play:
Power element 1: Scouting drones
After you deploy drone, draw scout path that the drone will copy. If any obstacle is in the way the drone will go as further as he doesn't collide with the solid obstacle. The drone has invisible AOE (same size as released version of drones). If any survivor is caught by drone, they receive claw trap. While claw trap is attached, if they vault any pallet it will instantly break, if working on a generator with claw trap the generator will be revealed on radar. Claw trap can be removed by two options: 1) before 60s passed, 2) sooner. If survivor decides to remove claw trap sooner, they will become injured or deep wounded.
Power 2: Exploding drones
While controling radar, you can take control of a drone. When the drone is at least 12m away from you, navigate it to any zone around map, get access to destructing drone, creating AOE. This AOE causes immidiate damage to any survivor caught inside and lingers for 5s.
Indeed, I understand her flaws, you didn't need to use her drone rotation switch aspect of her power because the double scan lines already did a huge amount for you, and as you say, she could just walk you down with bloodlust. The fact she could just poop a drone at a tile on demand to create this scenario was what people didn't like... however, as I say, this is not unfixable.
The changes you're proposing are quite drastic changes, and present their own problems, and my point is that she didn't need anywhere near as drastic to resolve a lot of her issues.
Some changes you could consider any or all of: -
- Make her scouting drones a single scan line (keep stealth with 2) with a faster rotation speed, so the survivor isn't overwhelmed with a damned if you do crouch, damned if you don't scenario.
- Switching of drone direction has a short cooldown so when SM uses it is a mind game in of itself.
- Remove the haste buff on scans, perhaps make it stronger (say 10% flat), but only grant her the haste buff when she's not in chase, so map wide scans/claw traps are things she can capitalise on/apply pressure on.
- Switch her Undetectable to be on continuous radar usage (say 1.5s) instead, so she can remove her red light in chase for mind games, which is directly synergistic with her radar tracking.
- Remove broken from her claw traps, so that Survivors can make the choice to heal/not heal while also accounting for her Undetectable, faster across map traversal and her radar detection, increasing interactivity.
- If fast drone deployment is a problem, make placing a drone by SM slow her similar to Huntress throwing a hatchet, and make the drone take a second or so before it starts rotating, so you have the lazer tag skillshot on SM with a meaningful and jukable interaction that can give survivors distance, that also reduces the pressure of "poop a drone" playstyles.
These changes are much more reasonable and increase her skill ceiling, while also reducing her cheesy elements.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954340#Comment_3954340
I wouldn't say perfectly fine... but it was definitely on the right track. There were many directions you could go with SM 2.0, and I've read some really good suggestions. The talking points had so much potential... IF you could actually get anyone to talk about it.
The biggest challenge I personally had with making Skull Merchant suggestions is you almost had to purposely undertune her, cause the backlash from daring suggest anything shy of kneecapping her was so intense, if you wanted any discussion at all, you had to low ball it...
Even though it's died down, I still subconsciously do it even now, to which @Orthane and @PetTheDoggo have to keep correcting me xD
Regardless, I'm watching the Skull Merchant changes with intent. As a wise man once said.. I don't care if she's not particularly strong... I'll take her just being playable...
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@GeneralV said:
I sincerely hope so.
I stand by what I said that Skull Merchant 2.0 was perfectly fine. She no longer held games hostage, she no longer caused problems in the same way the first design or OG Legion did. The nerfs she received were unnecessary.
And if the nerfs were unnecessary, the design preview, both of them, are worse. Skull Merchant shouldn't be transformed into another dash/mid range killer, we already have enough of those and it would kill her identity completely.
I wouldn't say perfectly fine... but it was definitely on the right track. There were many directions you could go with SM 2.0, and I've read some really good suggestions. The talking points had so much potential... IF you could actually get anyone to talk about it.
The biggest challenge I personally had with making Skull Merchant suggestions is you almost had to purposely undertune her, cause the backlash from daring suggest anything shy of kneecapping her was so intense, if you wanted any discussion at all, you had to massively low ball it...
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955936#Comment_3955936
But Skull Merchant was never nerfed because she was too strong or oppressive, she was nerfed because she was so insanely boring to go against that people rather killed themselve on hook, leaving her with 90 % kill rate, which is crazy. They stated her rework is on the way and meanwhile they want to tune her down, which was fine, I still get good results on SM but defienetly not because her power but because chase perks I'm using or luck I'm getting.
Was same reason why Knight was reworked, gameplay of killer press m2 at loop to get free hit was just boring - trapper and hag for example can still push you from the loop, but SM was so much faster with scans and you so much slower that she just hit you no matter what, they bloodlusted most of time which was just boring, same with knight, he dropped guard in loop, you had to hold w and guard go other way and either two tapped you or injure you.
True enough, though the reason everyone SoH themselves against her wasn't because her gameplay was boring. Artist was more lethal than Skull Mercahnt and better at zoning off loops, and she didn't get the same treatment.
It was all because of the legendary Chess Merchant game against team Eternal that people hated her. Skull Merchant players came out in droves to abuse that strategy to grief and troll people, and after that, anything short of putting her under the guillotine was never gonna succeed.
BHVR did a decent redesign with SM 2.0. She wasn't by any means perfect, she still had some pretty glaring flaws, but she was certainly on the right track with that rework... you could go quite a few directions with fixing her, and the 10 or so people that were actually willing to talk about her had LOADS of good suggestions in doing so, depending on the flavour you wanted her outcome to be... but... everyone else just wanted blood...
Every discussions was flooded with "just delete her" and alike, and players continued to SoH vs. her. So, in the end the loud voices won out and she got butchered. But SM 2.0 was not capable of any of the nasty strategies people hated her for anymore, and as I said above, there were several killers that could do something like what old Skull Merchant did far better than she could... but that didn't matter, the mob had made up their mind, and anything short of putting a shotgun to her knees was not going to sate their bloodlust.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
So, I do think Vigil is a problem, but my issue with Vigil isn't necessarily the number of status effects it counters. It is the anti-status effect perk and I think that's fine.
My main issue with it is that the percentage is simply too high, and it's much higher than it used to be. When they last buffed the perk in January they also changed the way it works - it used to increase status effect recovery speed by 30%, so that your standard 40s exhaustion timer recovered in around 30.7 seconds (40 / 1.3 = 30.7). When they buffed it to "40%", they made it actually reduce the duration by 40%, meaning it's actually a 66% increase in recovery rate (this is what's actually used in the code). This, in my opinion, was an over-buff. Had it truly went from 30% to 40%, it probably would've been fine, but 66% is too much for how much versatility this perk has (ie. there are a lot of things that are affected by it), AND it stacks too.
Furthermore, it reinforces the other components of the meta. Vigil is a great choice with exhaustion perks, but at the same time, most of the killer perks/addons that are affected by Vigil are off-meta, which further encourages sticking with meta options. Vigil affects 26 killer perks to be exact (and several more addons), but the only meta perks that are impacted are Sloppy Butcher and, to a lesser extent, Mindbreaker, Friends til the End, and Gift of Pain.
My other problem with it is that while it does not affect things like Ghostface's Mark (as the exposed timer is tied to the Mark itself) it does significantly impact Hindered on certain killer powers, including Clown, Freddy, and to a lesser degree Nemesis. I'm not sure why the wiki says these aren't affected, because they absolutely are affected by Vigil and in my opinion they should not be, there's a longstanding rule that perks don't usually affect killer powers. I'm actually not sure if Unknown's or Houndmaster's hinder are affected or not, but those other three are.
So, TL;DR: I'd like to see the following:
- Lower the recovery percentage to actually be 40%, not 66%. This is still a buff over the 30% version and it'd still be a strong perk, but not as strong as it is now.
- Keep the buffed range at 16 meters. This is completely fine the way it is, it does not need to go back to 8 meters like it was before.
- Killer power related Hindered should be exempt.
- MAYBE disallow Vigil stacking, though I'm unsure on this, if the percentage is lowered then that may be enough to prevent this from being an issue.
Yikes... solid rundown man, was not aware of a lot of that... unfortunately I have only a single +1 to give 🫡
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
I'd be for this if they gave me a cleanse perk as a healer that lets me remove a debuff from myself or others, or an item.
As it stands right now Vigil is the only answer to these sorts of builds, it looked like Wicked was going to be the answer to it but they changed it.I understand why you want a perk like this, though a cleanse perk can potentially become a big problem.
For example, let's say a killer gets added that applies blind as part of its power, similar to Freddy Oblivious.... if you add a cleanse blind perk, then you have a perk that directly counters such a killers power.
Even if you target perks only, a cleanse is an instant recovery, that completely hard counters all status killer perks. Think of the issues that Lightborn has for Survivor, 1 perk has the capacity to render a significant portion of your build immediately useless. Hard counters should be avoided wherever possible IMO.
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@Rick1998 said:
they need to remive the shorten exposed and hinder feom vigil. This actually applies to killers like clown hinder and ghostfaces exposed making these wesker killers even worst. Not a fan of perks that directly nerf a specific killer.
Just to clear up some confusion, Vigil does not affect status effects tied to interacting with the killers power, so GF, Myers and Clown are all not affected by this.
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I have been saying throughout all the Skull Merchant hate that Singularity can do the same thing but better...
Singularity was also the best Knockout slug killer.
Singularity was also the best NOED/Terminus/Remember Me user for holding gates. I saw this build once... it was pure evil.
Singularity has been capable of some of the nastiest strategies I've ever seen and is highly oppressive in chase... and yet, no one has issue with him... meanwhile Skull Merchant gets taken behind the shed 😅😅🤣
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955905#Comment_3955905
Is a fair point, though just to clarify, it's only 2.667s seconds not 4s, which translates to difference of ~12.25m of killer distance in the trial.This is my bad, for some reason I was thinking the numbers for running both as the comparison (~4.3 seconds adding We'll Make It on top of Botany, but we're discussing 1 vs the other).
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955901#Comment_3955901
Those scenarios didn't come up too often, Botany was a very consistent and strong perk, but they DID exist.I think this kind of gets to @jesterkind 's point - it isn't a big deal. Botany was a very good perk, now its a slightly stronger very good perk.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955694#Comment_3955694
I know I'm bouncing back a bit here but I noticed you didn't mention the game's best healing perk Autodidact.
😂
(in all seriousness when I've gotten autodidact in chaos shuffle I've found getting it fully charged can be game changing, but it is so incredibly luck dependent).
I kind of want to defend CoH, but all my memories of it being effective are from different metas. When slugging and 3 genning where stronger I found a CoH/Exponential a useful build, but not as much anymore. I guess it does provide the benefit of that the rest of the survivors can focus on non-healing perks if they're coordinating in the lobby, but even then it's really map dependent on its strength.
I know I'm bouncing back a bit here but I noticed you didn't mention the game's best healing perk Autodidact.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Hehehe, Autodidact is a special peach... I do really like the perk actually. When you get it going, it's GOATed, though counter intuitively, it's a bit like Bardic Inspiration really where you actually want to avoid Healing Speed as much as possible for the extra skillchecks. Mangled and perks like Leverage are actually helpful to Autodidact xD
I like to use it in a very specific build: -
- Engineer's Toolbox with extra charge and the no skillcheck add-on (very important!)
- Scavenger
- Streetwise
- Stake Out
- Autodidact
The idea is to crank out your toolbox ASAP on a gen and keep refilling it with Scavenger, and the Engineers Toolbox throws out charges faster than anything. The no skillcheck add-on preserves your Stake Out stacks until you need them... and Autodidact does the same when youre healing cause no great skillchecks xD
I think this kind of gets to
's point - it isn't a big deal. Botany was a very good perk, now its a slightly stronger very good perk.
Yeah... I guess based on being such a minority I am here, I may just have to concede this is more an issue with my own bias of what I enjoy in the game.
I suppose if I'm really honest, it doesn't change the power dynamic of DBD healing really. Just makes creating builds specifically just a little more boring for me personally. 😒😒😒
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955511#Comment_3955511
Resurgence has been a staple in my build since its buff, but the beauty of that perk (imo) is that i don't need anything else to compliment it. I literally get healed under the hook all the time and rarely have to heal myself.
Agreed, though that's the amazing thing I've found with this build snd why I get frustrated with Botany... its not just a great self heal perk, its also the best altruistic perk as well.
You're not just taking Botany for the self heal (If you get interrupted, your self heal times with Resurgence are ridiculous, there are times you can even get the heal off in chase), you take it for the self heal AND it's universal altruistic benefits as well.
Basically all questions around Botany and other perks are, should we focus on Self Healing or Altruistic Healing?
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955495#Comment_3955495
The requirement is the perk slot. Survivors get four perks and that is their primary source of strength and customization. Most perks either provide a moderate, constant buff (botany) or a significant, but conditional based buff (we'll make it). Some perks are situational and require certain circumstances to get value but its an extreme amount of value (unbreakable).
Botany is a solid, general perk, but if you're getting tunneled, or you're against a plague or instadown killer, its not very valuable. But if you bring heal perks and hit a killer spreading pressure, you'll have an advantage, sure, but that's broadly true for how everything works in the game.
I think this is all accurate. Medkit + addons + syringe + botany was and is still extremely strong and the change to botany knowledge really didn't impact much except make other medkit options more viable though still not as strong.
A big chunk of the reason why is that the penalty they removed… kinda didn't matter already. It was already trivially easy to overcome for a single heal - just bring one charge addon - and not all that difficult to get two heals out of either by bringing a syringe.I think this is broadly the reason they removed it. It didn't do much, but it required explaining the math to new players (and added unnecessary coding as well).
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955694#Comment_3955694
We'll Make It is the big loser, cause it only grants an additional ⅓ of the value of BK, despite being conditional and having a time limit.I generally prefer BK over We'll Make It, but, when I run We'll Make It, I feel so much more comfortable getting that heal in right away. If there is a potential that the killer can return to the hook, those 4 seconds can make a massive difference.
I generally prefer BK over We'll Make It, but, when I run We'll Make It, I feel so much more comfortable getting that heal in right away.
Is a fair point, though just to clarify, it's only 2.667s seconds not 4s, which translates to difference of ~12.25m of killer distance in the trial.
I accept the point that even with that number, it can of course make the difference of getting a heal off before the tunnel, but a killer really trying to tunnel will often interrupt before We'll Make It can finish as well... so I don't particularly see the additional value that comes from We'll Make It vs. Botany.
Especially when in SoloQ you have this constant problem of teammates being too keen to unhook, so if you have good unhook discipline, you often don't even get to trigger We'll Make It anyway, whereas Botany is always up no matter what happens.
And in regards to Botany having the same strength as before, please refer to my post above this one.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955694#Comment_3955694
I'd be inclined to agree overall, I personally value Botany very highly, but I do feel the need to point two things out.
First, and less importantly, there is room for personal taste in here. Some may find the way other perks work just far more smooth for their preferred gameplay, and that should count for something in these conversations.
Second, and more importantly, that was all true before the buff as well, which is my overall point. If Botany right now trumps all other healing tools, then Botany prior to the buff also did, because the few areas that the buff actually affects are pretty small and niche.
This is fair enough, and yes Botany did always have this strength before, however, my point has always been that the -20% medkit efficiency gave the perk a tangible downside.
That downside gave scenarios where Botany wasn't a preferable perk. Those scenarios didn't come up too often, Botany was a very consistent and strong perk, but they DID exist. The most prominent one being, if I'm injured at end game, need to heal solo and running Botany, I can't search chests for a medkit. That's a pretty niche weakness, but it's a real scenario that does come up every now and again.
I'm an off meta player, I like theory crafting and trying to create builds with a particular idea in mind, looking for combinations of perks that work well, that others may overlook... it's probably my favourite part of the game... and in all theory crafting, Botany is a strong choice every time, however this weakness above is also a factor to consider each time, and is a weakness that meant I might choose something like the less consistent perks like Desperate Measures, We'll Make It or Do No Harm in its place... and by doing so, using these perks inspires me to perhaps consider other alternatives that might uniquely synergise better with them.
Now whenever I'm creating builds, if I'm thinking of a healing speed perk for a build, Botany is the best choice every time because I can always ensure I have it for any scenario, including healing myself. It's why I hate the change so much, because whenever I'm theory crafting a healing build, the answer is always Botany... and that is so boring to me.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955511#Comment_3955511
I wouldn't go quite that far, I think Botany basically preserves its status as the all-rounder but I don't think it hardcore trumps all the other tools. Hell, everything you can do with Botany now you could also do before, you'd just maybe have to use slightly more expensive addons.
I also disagree that other healing perks are that bad in comparison. Simply not using your item slot is already genuinely a bonus, freeing up space for either the strongest item in toolboxes or more fun items like flashlights. It also must be said that Self Care and Strength in Shadows aren't outclassed by Botany because they are also improved by Botany- that perk is required for Self Care not to be throwing, and it makes SiS a top tier perk as opposed to just a quite good one.
I believe we've discussed this before but I think it's important to remember a lot of other altruistic healing perks do other things. We'll Make It is the closest comparison and all it really boasts is shaving a few extra seconds off post-unhook heals, but something like Circle Of Healing both has a higher speed and allows everyone on the team to sue it, and Desperate Measures has a potentially higher speed and unhook speed, which really isn't nothing. Empathetic Connection shows your aura so people go to you for heals, and Orela's perk I forget the name of scales to a higher number and has the skillcheck bonus, so on and so forth.
What I'd argue Botany Knowledge actually is would be the benchmark. It's a good high-ish number with no restrictions, and every other perk will have restrictions but provide better rewards in some way- higher number, extra effects, or both. That's not to say every comparison works out well there, but it's a reasonable position for a perk to be in.
That said, BK has been very powerful for a long time. It's not absurd to think its percentage might be lowered a little. I'd hope not, I love Botany, but it is plausible— and it won't have anything to do with this latest buff, it would've been justified for a long time.
Yeah I understand your point, but I just can't resolve that the extra speed argument on any perk is always moot point, because the difference is only 2.667s additional over BK, compared to the 5.333s value that BK already gives... and BK works in every scenario.
So then you have to go to secondary effects... and every effect falls short compared to the fact that BK also saves a whopping 8 seconds on medkit self healing, and frees up a whole extra players hands for the 16s duration... thats 16s of value from a medkit+ BK. This effect is good enough to be a perk on its own, and yet BK gives a significant portion of other perks value with no set-up, cooldowns of conditions whatsoever. Remember no self healing exists for all these other perks... so I'm just gonna say NoSH as a reminder.
We'll Make It is the big loser, cause it only grants an additional ⅓ of the value of BK, despite being conditional and having a time limit. Totally shut down by slugging or SoloQ hooking too fast... and NoSH.
We're Gonna Live Forever is a contender, because the endurance effect is a valuable effect that Botany cannot compete with... but is reliant on the killer to slug for value, whereas Botany's value is almost always gonna be there getting value no matter what strategy the killer employs short of tunneling the BK player (and even the a syringe can do huge work).NoSH.
Circle of Healing is far to restrictive, take 14s to set up, however much time to run to the boon, then again, only saving 2.667s over BK and can be snuffed. Totally pointless to run this perk, especially since COH is a NoSH perk.
Do No Harm is no value on no hook stage, equal value on first hook stage, and again only the same 2.667s value on the second hook stage. The net overall healing time over the game is still longer than Botany in practically all scenarios.... and once again, NoSH.
Desperate Measures, requires multiple injures teammates 3/4 of them to see the same value. Unhook speed is nice but really other than making a trade easier when injured, it's just not got an effect that rivals the consistency of Botany. Though this one does have self healing though; DoSH.
Empathic Connection has a decent percentage of the value of Botany at 11.85s compared to BKs 10.667s, and is similarly unconditional. The aura effect is actually decent here to create and good value trade off... though NoSH strike again. The self heal speed is a major head and shoulders value advantage.
This is why I can't take the argument that other perks have their own value particularly seriously... the value of Botany is so consistent and universally applicable, that the value of it trumps everything.
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Botany is the king of self heal builds now. Numerous amazingly good combos. My best thus far is: -
- Botany
- Resurgence
- Medkit with the 2 8 charge add ons.
Gives you 1 complete full heal in about 15.4s, and 2 heals off hook within 4.62s all for just common and uncommon add-ons. In some ways this better than the old syringe and 8 charge add-on bulld with BK and Resurgence, because you can heal yourself to full any one time you get injured, rather than having to burn the syringe and lose later heals.
I still maintain this is now the king of healing perks, and that is fundamentally flawed design, since Botany gives you access to great self healing and pretty much as good altruistic healing as any other perk all on 1 perk slot.
It makes so many other altrusitic helaing perks redundant, and also any self healing perks like Self Care, Strength in Shadows and Plot Twist basically meme perks, because they all pale in comparison for value.
Though I will admit I still have fun building around it, cause I can just not take a medkit if I don't want to play meta cheese.
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Survivor: Southern Wraith
Killer: Not ungrateful to be alive.
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@Atsuka_Anarchy said:
Literally how tunneling goes. It's not a good survivor experience.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/N4EDZV1AZS63/screenshot-2025-07-01-054027.png
Ahahahahahaha 😂😂😂😂😂
Ahahahahahahahahaha 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Not the Fleece Johnson!
Biggest problem with tunneling is it's a privilege of map mobile killers, which is all anyone wants it seems after Wesker... map mobility is mandatory in every killer design now it seems.
Every killer released/reworked after Wesker has it bar Knight and Skull Mechant, and those killers are hated. We've also seen slow decline of set up killers, stealth killers, and ranged killers have also fallen off/been power crept to oblivion.
I mean look at the newest killers Springtrap and Ghoul, we're now seeing killers who can go across the map with impunity. They're in that Nurse/Blight/Billy/Dracula tier of unconditional low cooldown map mobility with little to no warning to survivors where they are going, and they still remain highly lethal when they get there. Compare them to other killers that can move across the map fast:
- Freddy - Long Cooldown and a long ass animation.
- Dredge - Locker reliant and lockers can be locked to buy time to run.
- Sadako - Can turn off TVs and deny completely.
- Xenomorph - Can place turrets for early warning and as a distraction.
- Spirit/Chucky/Wesker - Long cooldown and denial of their chase power for a time on arrival.
- Houndmaster - Can pre walk away and avoid detection.
These killers are all relatively new and all have map traversal as part of their kit, but at least these are tempered by factors that limit their effectiveness... and even these killers are all great at tunneling.
Traditional M1 killers have a lot of macro issues to worry about if they want to tunnel. They kind of have to camp if they want to tunnel, and Survivors can ignore them to focus gens without too much pressure realistically being exerted unless it's a VERY favourable map.
This is the fundamental core problem of tunneling. For low map mobility characters to tunnel, they're kinda throwing the game to do it vs. tje nuemrpus defences survivors have to fight it. Every low mobile killer greatly fears Decisive Strike; but also struggle for pressure in general, so may have to resort to it to get some momentum going whereas top tiers can effectively exert pressure, then still sprint back to the unhook to tunnel a player out as well.
The fact Pyramid Head is not really the best tunneler in the facw of these map mobile killers, despite his kit offering several huge tunneling focused effects, says a lot.
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I'm not so keen on it being off hits, since that favours a more slugging playstyle, especially on special attacks hits.
Undones biggest issue is its design is a "win more" perk. It only helps you in games where you're already winning (as in survivors are missing a lot of skillchecks)
I always felt someone else's suggestion of switching it to successful skillchecks was a good idea:
- 1 token for good skill checks
- 3 tokens for great skill checks
This would make it more of an anti gen rush perk, since you'd gain more stacks from Survivors blasting gens with toolboxes/hyperfocus than you would from normal play, and it'd be a perk that scales better against higher skilled survivors than lower ones.
Might also have a synergy with Merciless Storm, so that perk has use for more characters than Doctor.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3953429#Comment_3953429
Nah she'd not be a survivor, she's at least as strong as the Entity. She would definitely be a killer if she was going to return.
I wonder if she would work as a survivor...
If instead of screaming or being in pain, she laughed mockingly and made snarky comments to each killer... kinda like a reverse Entity, where she is playing by the rules of the trial by diesnt suffer any of the consequences.
Something like "AARRRRRRRGGGHHH!.... heh just kidding!"
Would be a major betrayal of the horror theme of course... but it would be funny. 😏
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951537#Comment_3951537
Nothing about this helps against slugging for the 4K. The killers that hooked would have given the chance for hatch either way and the ones that didn‘t, won‘t after this change simply because there is a chance they won‘t get the 4K. Behavior finally needs to actually fix 2 vs1 situations instead of making them much worse than they already were.
Sure, but that doesn't mean leaving should be easy. Bots are still bots, and easy for the killer to catch because they can be read/mind gamed very easily
Then they need to improve bots.
A DC bot is a band aid fix, nor a fair solution, the survivors are still at a big disadvantage, so the DC penalty must stay, and players should not be allowed to subvert it easily.
Removing self unhook attempts puts survivors in an even bigger disadvantage and you can still not force players to play. You saw that in the clip above. The person staying alive screw over the team more than him being dead.
You don‘t get a 97% chance to unhook yourself, not even in swf. Sure swf can make it almost a guarantee but why is soloq left out and can‘t do the same?
Would you trust such a system to be reliable at preventing players "using it to often", but also not catching false positives? Seems highly risky to me.
My intention was to keep the system available for the majority that didn’t give up and only disable it for certain players. Sure some might still do it, but like you saw in the clip of OP you can‘t force players to play and in my opinion the bigger problem were the struggle skill checks than the self unhook attempts.
Removing the unhook attempts has just dumbed down the game even further and now the last comeback mechanic is just gone. Additionally behavior will continue to ignore reasons why people don‘t want to play matches till the end.
Nothing about this helps against slugging for the 4K.
Not by itself not, but it does open the way to reduce it if a survivor hook is not an instant death, but granted this is a hypothetical.
Then they need to improve bots.
Why? It should never be a thing that bots carry the game.
I don't know how much experience you have with bot programming in games, but effectively the devs have to give them cheats in order to operate believably. For example bots usually get access to resources and mechanics that you don't. In DBD the bots don't react to Undetectable because they are aware of where you are at all times, and to loop properly they essentially have wall hacks and will turn opposite to you each time and will vault at certain points.
However you as a result can force them certain paths and predict them for faster downs. They have to be predictable otherwise it would be impossible to catch them through their perfect reads on you every time.
You don‘t get a 97% chance to unhook yourself, not even in swf. Sure swf can make it almost a guarantee but why is soloq left out and can‘t do the same?
I'm sorry to tell you this... you can.
Up the Ante stacks, so you have:
- 4% base
- 4% from Slippery Meat
- 4×3% from Vigo's Salty Lips
- 4×9% from Up the Ante
Gives 56% unhook chance for each unhook, so the chance fail an unhook is 44%.
So over 6 attempts that 0.44⁶ = 0.00725 of not unhooking yourself... or a 99.99275% of unhooking yourself. So it's actually even stronger than I thought.
My intention was to keep the system available for the majority that didn’t give up and only disable it for certain players.
Aye, some of those are good suggestions to be fair, but it is absolutely a feature to be VERY sparing with, because even if only 5% of players quit games on the regular, that is still 1 in 5 in games that destroyed by someone quitting... and people DO abuse it.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951344#Comment_3951344
Struggle skill checks are the only thing that should have been removed. They affect new/bad/console players much worse than older players and they are very annoying. I remember times were I was frustrated and just couldn’t deal with these (stupid) skill checks anymore. With them being gone the whole give up system would have been improved by a lot. Additionally they need to fix the obvious oversight they created with slower dieing on hook. There are situations were you want to die faster to give your last teammate a chance. So there should be an option to instasacrifice yourself on hook by pressing a single button when you are only two survivors, which would be such an easy thing to implement.
What caused the giving up after all? It was the dc penalty, which players found out they could easily bypass. Behavior needed to encourage dcing over giving up, hopefully they understand that one day. If players don‘t want to play the match till the end you can‘t force them and punishing isn‘t a good approach for everything! Now that we have bots, the best they could do is encouraging players to give their teammates that bot.
The 3 self unhook attempts are to a certain degree player agency. If a person wants to use them so badly that‘s their choice, but I would restrict it if they are used too often. Like it isn‘t reasonable to use them every match. My approach would be to simply deactivate the self unhook option for players that hit second stage too often with self unhook attempts. I would probably make it deactivate self unhook attempts when you use it in 4 out of 10 matches and then it deactivates for ten matches where you can‘t try. I wouldn’t count using it as the final two survivors.
Lastly I would improve luck. Afterall luck decreases the the chance of people going next, but the percentage you get from luck offerings needs to be increased. 1-3% is nothing and doesn’t improve your chance really. Same with the base chance, 4% is such a tiny number. Then I would remove the luck offerings that only affect one person and make luck affect chests. Lastly the luck chance needs to be visible somewhere on the screen to everyone, so my teammates can understand my intention or decide whether or not they should try to unhook themself. The problem of luck builds in soloq Que always is that your teammates don‘t know what you are trying to do and to be fair how should they. The real strenght of luck builds is when no one comes to the hook and by even one person coming they ruin your whole build.
In the end it really doesn’t matter to suggest anything. Behavior is probably not going to read it or they simply ignore it.
To summon it up. I would remove the struggle skill checks, give an instasacrifice option to the final two survivors, encourage to use the dc mechanic, improve the luck mechanic and restrict the self unhook attempts only for people that hit second stage too often. Sure some go next would still happen but it would be much less and far less reliable to do for certain people.
Struggle skill checks are the only thing that should have been removed. They affect new/bad/console players much worse than older players and they are very annoying
I feel less strongly about the second stage skillchecks personally. They are thematically accurate/satisfying, not too hard for the most part until you get to the very last few checks, keeps me engaged instead of looking away at my phone for the unhook, and all things considered, missing one isn't that much time off your progress bar. It takes 5 missed checks to die, which is approximately 7s of your timer if I guess at 5s between a missed check animation and the next skillcheck.
Additionally they need to fix the obvious oversight they created with slower dieing on hook. There are situations were you want to die faster to give your last teammate a chance. So there should be an option to instasacrifice yourself on hook by pressing a single button when you are only two survivors
This is a possible hot take, but I consider this change to be part of the fix to slugging for the 4k. There are multiple reasons that Killers slug for the 4k and the fact a survivor can quick kill themselves is one of them. As someone who always plays the hatch game, I much greater appreciate this change, as it gives me more incentives to actually hook since I have chance to try and find the last survivor, maybe even use my perks to assist me.
If players don‘t want to play the match till the end you can‘t force them and punishing isn‘t a good approach for everything! Now that we have bots, the best they could do is encouraging players to give their teammates that bot.
Sure, but that doesn't mean leaving should be easy. Bots are still bots, and easy for the killer to catch because they can be read/mind gamed very easily... and that can't change, because bots generally speaking should not be outperforming players for obvious reasons. A DC bot is a band aid fix, nor a fair solution, the survivors are still at a big disadvantage, so the DC penalty must stay, and players should not be allowed to subvert it easily.
The 3 self unhook attempts are to a certain degree player agency. If a person wants to use them so badly that‘s their choice, but I would restrict it if they are used too often.
Ideally sure... but we are basically creating an automated self kill feature with this though... which is exactly what the Go Next Prevention feature is... and we've seen how easily that can go wrong. Would you trust such a system to be reliable at preventing players "using it to often", but also not catching false positives? Seems highly risky to me.
Lastly I would improve luck. Afterall luck decreases the the chance of people going next, but the percentage you get from luck offerings needs to be increased.
I am very reluctant to increase Luck, cause I've seen the old Luck builds... they are very nasty and abusable, and tbh surprising they are still in the game at all. 4 players taking Vigo's Salty Lips, Slippery Meat, and Up the Ante gives each of you a 97.8% of unhooking yourself on 6 attempts.
Even as a solo build, it's still a 73.8% chance to unhook yourself on 6 attempts, or 48.8% on 3 attempts.
@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951344#Comment_3951344
To come back to the scenarios where you should be able to try to self unhook yourself. I will probably forget some of them because there are a lot of different factors that play into it.
- Always in basement against Hag/Trapper…
- 3 people downed or hooked. The last survivor can‘t get close.
- 2 or more people hooked in basement and the killer is nearby.
- 15 seconds before second stage you should get one last try and not get punished for other survivors leaving you there to die.
- Always in endgame.
- Everyone hooked, dead or downed.
- Someone is slugged in the anti camp radius and refuses to crawl away.
- Two survivors have an active pig trap, hooked or slugged while the last one is occupied by the killer.
- …
Effectively my overall point is, the benefits of reducing unhook attempts, as far as I've seen, have improved my survivor experience substantially. Far too many survivors quit far too easily, and it almost always dooms everyone... and with regards to some of these additional scenarios you list... there are a number that still reeks of giving up too easily to me, or make the rules inconsistent and confusing, particularly those based on the killer in play.
E.g the Trapper/Hag situation. A team might try to save and get wiped...or they might abandon you and do gens... the latter is the correct play. By sitting on hook for 140s, you are making it more difficult for the Trapper/Hag to go too far... you are helping your team by staying on tne hook. Killing yourself imemdoately, you free the Hag/Trapper from having to watch you, and likely put your team at a hefty disadvantage.
These proposals tend to have the same issues of abandoning your team and making it easier for the killer, or are gonna be error prone to identify and trying to implement them with appropriate safe guards causes more problems than its worth. The most obvious issue being a team of 2 can facilitate each other leaving on these quite easily, basically making "Go Next" a SWF privilege, and sucks to be SoloQ
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@Langweilig said:
The anti go next changes (alongside making map offerings useless) was one of the worst update they did in a long time. Instead of implementing it in a way that only punishes go next people, behavior rather punishes all players by robbing them their 3 unhook attempts. Removing the unhook attempts didn‘t even solve anything and made the game even worse for the other players than it would have been if Steve just died.
Behavior please bring back the 3 self unhook attempts. There are legit reasons for trying it when you have no other hope/chance. You should also encourage people to dc to give the team a bot rather than standing there and screwing over the whole team.
While I agree, I would have liked to keep the 4%... I've tried many times to come up with a solution that lets players keep the 3 unhook attempts, but still stops immediate SoH. Unfortunately even my best solutions, still aren't good enough... the player base just can't be trusted with it.
If you make it have no/a small penalty, you give 3 unhook attempts for free so everyone tries every time. If you give it a strong penalty then people die faster and can use it to get out of/ruin the game... there isn't really a way to make one of these scenarios not true...
BHVR have made it so that you can attempt a self unhook when only 2 players are left, thats the primary scenario you want to try and unhook... The only other one being if the rest of the team is hooked or slugged.
They could piggy back off their abandon system and have the self unhook option come up in the scenarios those trigger... like a "final hope" mechanic... that would be a solid suggestion... it's a little hand-holdy, but it's the only way I could see it work without being abusable.
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Survivors already can attempt to unhook themselves when only 2 players are left, and it takes about 35s to die. That's quite reasonable, and I don't perceive that as a problem at all, in fact I'd call that an improvement for the slug for 4k situation, cause the killer actually has time to look for then other survivor before they die.
The fundamental problem with any "solution" to slugging for the 4k is that the killer is winning this game, and has a right to go for the 4k, whether it's for challenges or achievements, more bloodpoints, or just cause they want to get a 4k for any reason. The problem is hatch basically puts all of that on a coin flip at the end, and no matter how you slice it, it isn't really fair for the killer to lose their 4k on that coin flip at the end of the game... that's why people slug for the 4k, to avoid that coinflip.
However, Hatch is a necessary evil, because the only reason the hatch exists is so that survivors have a faint hope of escape to keep playing in a losing game, rather than just give up and die... hatch is not a meant to be a reliable escape method for survivor to cuck the killer out of their 4k, it is meant to be the final distant hope to keep the game going... so I can't say I'm on board with an Unbreakable suggestion at all.
With that in mind, I think a better solution is, similar to the ability to unhook yourself becoming unlocked when 2 players are left, give survivors a "desperation" crawl where they bleed out substationtially faster (say 90 seconds), crawl faster but make louder grunts of pain. Bleeding out from Desperation will cause the survivor to be grabbed by the Entity and counts as a kill normally.
This means the killer has a choice between taking the hook for the advantage of many perks to help find the last survivor, or taking the slug with a slightly longer timer but no perks to help.
Still some stuff to iron out, but you get the concept. However regardless the point I want to stress is, going for the 4k is not evil or greedy, it is perfectly fair for the killer to want the 4k, and you can't bring in mechanisms that punish them for doing so.
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That's an interesting idea to stop both gates from being worked on simultaneously and messing with each other when trying to open both gates.
Regarding the haywire flickering effect, it would be cool if the other gate flickered when a gate was being worked on, so if both are 99'd independently you wouldn't even be aware.
To assist with the details:
- The gate has 20 charges, and normally progresses at 1 charge per second.
- The relationship is Progress (c) = Speed (c/s) × Time (s)
- Positive/Negative modifiers are applied to the speed, positive are applied first, negative modifiers are apllied second.
- Sole Survivor (+ 50%) and Wake Up apply first. SS would be t = 20c ÷ 1.5c/s = 13.33s
- Remember Me either adds charges to the gate, so 20 charges becomes 50 charges. You Haywire would still be net 0 (1 c/s - 1c/s). With SS, t = 50c ÷ 1.5c/s = 33.33s.
- Or Remember Me applies up to a 60% penalty to the open speed. Your Haywire would be -0.6c/s (0.4 c/s - 1c/s). With SS, t = (20c ÷1.5c/s) ÷ 0.4c/s = 33.33s.
Your change Haywire would effectively be applying its own -1c/s to the opposing gate. So it depends which version of Remember Me implemented as to how this plays out 😁
Might be interesting if the killer could open the opposing gate and immediately apply a max charge reduction to the other gate. 😅
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Has this been confirmed officially?
Cause the only source I've found is Ruthless Leaks:
https://www.reddit.com/r/LeaksDBD/comments/1ljtelx/chaos_shuffle_next_iteration_details_not_a_leak/
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950632#Comment_3950632
To be honest I think her previous version (before getting nuked) was easy to salvage. She would be fine if they simply removed broken and nerfed hindered…
Aye we had many great discussions on Skull Merchant.
Version 2.0 was on the right track, she still had issues, but the bad PR she had just meant all discussion got drowned in a sea "just delete".
Your "always mending" suggestion was one I really liked.
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@Orthane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950603#Comment_3950603
I'm a P100 SM. Rotations are the most important thing because that's the only way you get Haste now. The no scan line movement is kinda just troll, people have to be really bad to get hit by those lol.
Especially now her drone scan lines are always visible in range 🥴
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@PetTheDoggo said:
That sounds very weak. Setting time longer than Hag for something that can be so easily denied with high visibility...
Especially without undetectable, which was/is kinda only thing going for her.
Aye thats fair, I think thats part of her problem though, cause especially now we can see that her power is basically garbage, and when I play her I literally just throw a drone to be a 4.6m/s undetectable killer on demand.
As I look back at it, there would definitely need to be buffs, but I was more focused on cleaning up her baseline design so that the different parts make sense together to build on.
I did consider for example 2 scans instead of 3 for a claw trap, and other such buffs, but I didn't want to get it a whole bunch of controversy over such things xD