UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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Best evidence for Power Creep is Huntress and Wesker... cause they were always considered A tier killers and somewhere in the top 5.
Despite neither really changing significantly (a good Wesker doesn't need Hindered, and Huntress even got buffed...) I don't think many people drop then in that tier anymore, and both already certainly not even in the top 10 killers anymore.
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@Firellius said:
Power creep is just eventually untenable. Even if both sides get power creep, we'd probably be looking at embarrassingly short matches at some point. Plus, if some new killer comes out that powercreeps a bunch of old ones, and then the survivors get powercrept themselves to keep up with that new killer, all the old killers have to be revamped and overhauled to make sure they're viable again.
It's just a ton of work. I'm happy with more 'out there' ideas, but flat-out power-creeping is something that should be avoided where possible.
Unfortunately Power Creep has been happening pretty continuously for the past 2 years.
We've had a bunch of killers released or buffed into A and S tier back to back since Chucky, such as Unknown, Vecna, Dracula, Houndmaster, Kaneki, Springtrap. Killers seem to only want high speed Dash/teleport killers with no actual macro skill that can brute force map control and tunnel with impunity (despite pretending that every survivor buff is broken, which they are for normal killers, but not the dash trash they actually play). Any notions I had this wasn't true is dying with the recent Grimoir poll that is highlighting that people want yet another dash killer for the "Fallen Angel".
Meanwhile Survivors keep getting stronger and stronger buffs to perks, basekit abilities and items (despite largely refusing to acknowledge it and trying to play victims as well) to keep up with this trend of stronger killers, which in turn makes it so the weaker killers need substantial buffs as well.
My recent experiences of DBD have pretty much been: -
- 90% of my survivor games are against A tier killers, unless it's a lower tier killer with an incredibly obnoxious build and very hard to beat unless I'm running meta.
- My killer games (largely as m1 killers) are split evenly with people using typical WoO, Lithe, Decisive Strike builds with flashlights, that are tough but managable, or people making use of all the best toys survivors have and completely running me over.
I want to stress I'm having fun, and I beleive there have been a lot of good things done witn DBD in rlthese laat 2 years... but if the trend keep going how it has been, I'm getting a little concerned.
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Yikes, yeah that's unlucky dude, always one to keep in mind with Weaving Spiders.
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Question... how do you fit a guy a neck the size of tree trunk and wearing half a cars worth of armour into the same animation model as Dwight?
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Also want to add that I agree with you whole heartedly on keys. Keys are perfect, even regarding Blood Amber for keys... I don't see it as a nerf.
The fact the range is limitless means you have the effect of Object of Obsession, but it's entirely in your beck and call. That is very good no matter how you slice it.
Obviously its strength in looping isn't quite so strong, but I would also argue that in many cases the killer seeing your aura isnt even a problem anyway, the fact you are completely unmindgamable means you can always counter rotate the killer and force the killer to walk after you/try and get angle on your terms, not theirs. Yes Nurse is Nurse, but outside of that not a big issue…
Plus, we also have access to old keys... but a buffed version. Take Distortion... it charges in chase, blocks your Aura reveal, hides you scratch marks and let's you see the killers aura.
This is the reason I don't take complaints about Blood Amber seriously. Just take Distortion and you have a considerably stronger version of Blood Amber than you ever did before.
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I was making my own thread on this with largely the same observations, but since you've done the work, I'll just pop them in here. My quick fire thoughts:
- Gens - I agree the beam of light for gen auras is clunky, to my mind it should just be inherent to the map user, I'd use the shared effect later.
- Gates - Also, why not just allow them to track gates as well basekit, no add on required? Experienced players already known the possible spawns, or at least structure that indicates the gate location in the distance, just make gate tracking a part of maps in general. It's not really an effect that make sor breaks the items.
- Hatch - Not needed. The only argument I have for not making this basekit or a feature of the new maps in general, is there are already enough incentives to slug for the 4k, I don't think killers need more reasons. It was almost always a pointless part of maps anyway, so I don't miss it. You can't find it until it spawns, which if the map tracked and revealed it, you pretty much already found it, most killers slug for the 4k anyway, and if the killer finds it first a map revealing its aura isn't gonna help you. It was pointless on old maps, and I don't think its healthy for new maps. Hatch should be hatch, a bit like death saving throws in D&D, no modifiers, just rolling the dice and fate.
- Chests - Also not needed, chests fit the bill more for keys if anything, and I don't like the aura overload of old maps.
- Pillar of Light - The light beam should also just be a thing I can turn on and off without charges, decouple it from the other aura effects. Start to channel and pop it down or turn it off with the action button... this would make Pillar feel more like they used to work... and old pillar was nice, not strong enough to override the value you needed from othwr addons on old maps, but just a nice effect that would be pleasant to have basekit. (I'll come to the iri).
- Charges - The shift tontime based charges I think is fine. Easier to balance giving strong effects around charges if players can't "flash" auras. However itln that same breathe, I don't like thesmall number of charges. For keys low charges make sense because player auras are quite clutch and something you want deliberately want at specific times. Map auras are largely convenience and something you want to check much more often. I'd say go nuts and give them 8/10/12 charges.
- Totems - I have no issue with totems not being basekit, one thing I disliked about iri maps of old was it was pure aura overload... and this totem always countered Hex's really hard, so I don't mind it being purple... however the fact you lose other auras sucks. Just have it add totems to the list of auras, and then, in conjunction with the buff to map charges, lower the charges by 50%.
- The iri... see below.
Iridescent Rework
The Iri offering revealing the killer to me is illogical to what maps are for. Keys are for players, maps are for terrain, and I think keeping this logic distinct is much better for maintaining eaches identity. I also believe that maps are a much more convenient item than keys, and having this killer aura reveal means the charges have to be lower to account for it. So would say remove the killer aura from the iridescent to allow more charges.
I would then make it so that channelling a map with the iridescent reveals the aura of the map itself, and any aura it sees to all other survivors.
While this doesn't sound particularly flash on paper, it opens up a lot of subtle and clever uses for maps: -
- Can used to preemptively support teammates you know are near dead zones, making use of the large radius of maps to ensure you both can reach safety.
- Points out where the map user is (also in a funny unique way), which can be used for calls to heal, help set up for flashlights, pallet stuns and Michone dropkicks, and if in chase generally provides info on where the killer is in a similar way to how Empathy does.
- Allows the map user to highlight key locations, so if you want players to see a particular aura (say a hex totem or a nearly complete gen) you can pillar it as you run away, affirming a teammate has the chance to pick it up, because they can see you in chase.
TLDR
That's how I see maps working best: -
- 8/10/12 charges
- Generators just revealed with WoO auras.
- Gates added to aura list basekit.
- Pillar of Light decoupled from auras and placable without channeling.
- Totem add-on just adds totems to the aura list, but halves the charges.
- Iri add-on reworked to no longer revela the killers aura, instead reveals the aura of the channeling map, and all visible auras to it to all survivors.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979997#Comment_3979997
It's still time spent on getting other survivors whilst they have either to heal themselves, or find a kit, or find others. They're out of action for more than those times because of searching for a safe place or help or just hiding.
I do see the maths. In the field it's different though. I respect the research, so take my upvote, even if I don't agree.
Fair, and I can't deny the maths doesn't paint the whole picture, it is largely considering an ideal sirvivor scenario... but I'm a pessimist, I tend to assume the Survivor team playing relatively efficiently and sensibly, not the goofy reality it often is 😅
Back at you man 😁
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@etisatis said:
I hope that "10 seconds" is a simple exaggeration and not a delusion. There is no way a survivor could heal themselves in 10 seconds. There is no way to get healed by a fellow survivor in 10 seconds if only they are not full healing build or they're very lucky at Autodidact skillchecks with 5 tokens.
Medkits are already nerfed, Toolboxes are nerfed, Flashlights are nerfed. Keys and Maps reworked to barely usable state. Map offerings got nerfed. Fog Vials just got nerfed. Everything to make a mediocre killer more impactful against a regular soloq.
If you make healing time ineffective, survivors will choose to spend it on gens. And then you'll cry about genrush.Erm... that is objectively false my guy.
Self Healing:
- Botany + Medkit with Abdominal Dressing and Medical Scissors - 13.64s
- Botany + Desperate Measures + Medkit (no add ons) - 14.04s, 12.57s, 11.37s, 10.38s (depending on number of injured survivors)
- Resurgence + Medkit (no add-ons) - 7.16s
- Medkit with Surgical Suture and Needle & Thread - 19.58s, 15.28s, 10.98s (saves 4.42s, 8.84s, 13.26s) (1/2/3 great skills checks).
Altruistic Healing:
- Botany - 10.67s
- We'll Make It/Circle of Healing/We're Gonna Live Forever - 8s
- Autodidact with 1 skillcheck - 18.4s, 16s, 13.6s, 11.2s, 8.8s, 6.4s, 4.0s (for 0 to 5 tokens respectively)
Obviously you can combine a lot of these effects to even faster, but higher percentages are diminishing returns. Point being, it's quite easy to get under 10s with 1 or 2 perks and medkits with appropriate add-ons.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979623#Comment_3979623
I dunno, I think the drop of pinks to 14% and the buff to yellows of 12% in conjunction with his reload speed improvements are good changes. Makes more skilled clowns using both bottles well better at converting hits at tiles, and addresses some of his map traversal issues, which is typically the place he suffers most.
The changes to his cloud size, the reduction of his Tonic linger from 2 to 1s, and the plume speed of the Antidotes from 2 to 1s however... all need to be reverted... along with a lot of his add-on butchery.
I think then Clown is in a solid place overall.
Bah edit still broken.
I'd also add that Pinky finger should be updated so that only the Clown only has 1 Tonic bottle, the rest are Antidotes. 1 bottle period is just silly, at least give him his yellows back if he misses his Pink.
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@Brimp said:
So what do you mean by "fix" because I would just like a full revert.
I dunno, I think the drop of pinks to 14% and the buff to yellows of 12% in conjunction with his reload speed improvements are good changes. Makes more skilled clowns using both bottles well better at converting hits at tiles, and addresses some of his map traversal issues, which is typically the place he suffers most.
The changes to his cloud size, the reduction of his Tonic linger from 2 to 1s, and the plume speed of the Antidotes from 2 to 1s however... all need to be reverted... along with a lot of his add-on butchery.
I think then Clown is in a solid place overall.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
I just think: "If they're healing, then they are not working on generators". It's extra time in my pocket, which often comes in handy later on.
Hmmm... not so sure I agree. 😅
I take a bit more of a "extra health state means another 10 seconds to catch up to them after the post hit boost, then whatever extra time it takes to score a second hit for the down" viewpoint to see a net positive vs. gen repair.
Basically my 2 chases on that survivor have to beat the 32 seconds of survivor time occupied by one survivor healing another for 16 seconds to be a net positive. That seems quite manageable.
If they have a medkit, that's now 24 seconds I have to beat. Seems a bit tough.... but doable, though this doesn't account for the fact that the 16s the healing survivor would lose is instead freed to also be used to advance gens... so the net is actually worse... but sticking to 24s, it's no bad.
If they have Botany and a medkit, that's 16s, so I'm likely not making that, so I'm at a deficit most likely... its not even possible to interrupt and prevent the heal without directly tunneling as opposed to going after the unhooker, since the medkit doesn't suffer from.occupying 2 survivors hands.
If they have Botany, a medkit and Resurgence, that's 4.8 seconds I have to beat... not even possible, I'm in a deficit no matter what... I likely couldn't even interrupt even if I did try to tunnel unless I was camping uber hard, and camping is straight up throwing the game.
So can't say I can share that optimism that survivors healing is just time not spent on gens... the overall pressure the killer has takes quite a hit from even unbuffed medkits 😅
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Just saw the perk description for it today so dunno how good it is yet… but new Overwhelming Presence might be worth a look with a Sloppy/Gift of Pain build 🤔
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@Atsuka_Anarchy said:
I think Myers and I envision Lethal Pursuer
I think Pig and I envision Make Your Choice (But I don't run it. Surry.)Make Your Choice <3
For me I associate that with Dredge personally... or Hag. Both can be nasty with it 😅
@MrDardon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979905#Comment_3979905
That plus I'm all Ears. My current mood consists of using 4 Aura Perks on Pyramid Head to get as many through wall snipes as possible.
Nice, I've not assimilated his new iri yet... been humbled a few times by his insane range. Still get that "WHAT THE!?... Oh... right... yeah that's a thing isn't it..." reaction at the minute xD
@PetTheDoggo said:
Legion → Enduring (I love instadown under the pallet)
Deathslinger → Coup (It let's you shoot survivor over pallet and reach around even on bigger loops)
Oni → Unforseen (Easier first hit and fun surprise when angry)The absolute cuck that is same side successful pallet stun into vault, that ends in still going down to a 180° enduring Legion 😭😭😭
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Bah, edit is broken so apologies for the double post, but yeah this the trade off with BBQ. Alternatively, Friends 'til the End is pretty solid for this situation, and Alien Instinct is also pretty sound if you can keep people injured.
Another alternative is to take Thrilling Tremors, which will highlight gens not being worked on when you pick people up, so by proxy you can see gens where people are, regardless of distance. This also has the benefit of that info cannot be blocked from you.
There will never be a Swiss army knife for EVERY scenario, but there are some pretty good options.
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One option might be that you could combine it with Infectious Fright so you catch people either way. 40m+ you have the aura, and less than that, people scream, which with Wesker is easy to find them.
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@UnicornMedal said:
I only use them if there's enough time for me to open a chest. The density being changed is a very notable difference and honestly the vials weren't incredibly useful before the nerf either. They were more of a mini-catchup for Survivor, whereas now they're more of a party favor.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979199#Comment_3979199
This raises a good point that the Vials might've fared better in the older days of DBD when there was stronger emphasis on chase and baiting out bad plays. Instant gratification means that things like this have to go, even if theoretically they're fine.
What doesn't help of course is, like most things in DBD, dashes nullify the effect.
Using vials against say a Myers or Pig on an indoor map almost feels like cheating. You just throw a semi decent pallet that they have to break then vanish into the ether. Often even if they spot you, they often don't follow you perfectly and lose way more distance than they normally would. Quick and Quiet especially opens up some really good options to bamboozle the killer and make vials a lot more solid.
However... many of the things you can use to make vials good... just don't work when you're playing against something like Blight or Hillbilly who can easily stick to you through the smoke, and of course if you're injured they are preyty much useless, so characters like Ghoulare off the table. At least they aren't bad against Nurse... you can actually try to do things against her...
If they revert the opacity again, they wouldn't be a slouch against the fast killers either, and could actually mess up a Nurse pretty hard... so we can dream 😅
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To my mind, the main thing it needs is for the random gaps in the houses to be made breakable walls instead... at least then the building windows would actually work 1 time rather than being completely useless the entire game. 🙄
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@Zuiphrode I'm not a fan of the Bloody Coil change, because Bloody Coil already feels like an add-on that makes a big difference/is one of his strongest, and I don't want to make that add-on a must have. The 10% Haste is also an issue because it impacts chase with other players. However the set trap time I'm with you on.
@Valimure also has a good suggestion with the removal of stepping in his own traps, but I will forever stand against Trappers Sack basekit, as it just makes Trapper a trap the holy hell out of a zone 1 trick (mostly basement), and removes all elements of trap management.
To my mind what Trapper needs is:
- Trapper Gloves (brown) basekit - +30% trap setting speed. Makes him a little less vulnerable to hold W without making him oppressive, and also reduces his set up time.
- Makeshift Wrap (brown) basekit - Traps are disabled when Trapper walks over them. His power should not be a liability to him at any point. He's the master if traps, why is he getting csught in them? This helps his anti loop by letting him take paths survivors can't.
- Lengthened Jaws (green) basekit - Survivors who escape from traps suffer from the Deep Wound status effect. Survivors who step in a trap across map and free themselves should have some kind of additonal penalty. This at least slows down their ability to heal and gives chance for Trapper to capitalise.
- Trap escapes reworked to be a set 8s time (with skillchecks) rather than random chance. (Add-ons adjusted accordingly). Conyunation of the above capitalisation point. Random fast escapes should not be a thing, Trapper should be afforded the time to decide if he wants go after a distant trap. Survivors can help each other out of traps faster, so the mechanics already exist to counter Trappers pressure, but self escapes should be costly.
- Trap Recall ability - Trapper can look at a trap anywhere on the map (think Freddy gen mark) and presses the secondary killer power button to mark it. If no mark is set, the furthest trap from his current location is the target. Opening a locker will despawn that trap from the map and be pulled out of the locker. 30s cooldown. Removes a lot of his trap spawn RNG and allows him to reduce the pain points of his trap collection, while still keeping trap management a prominent part of his gameplay.
Most of this is Pally's (YouTube) suggestion for Trapper, with some tweaks for elements I didn't agree with, but I think these are the changes I'd like to see most on Trapper.
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A bound cancel like Kaneki?
Faster mid bound movement, making Egg even stronger?
Shorter recovery times, less reaction time for his wind up, faster and further bounds?
Vault recovery becomes even faster, while also making the window to vault back through the window even smaller, likely impossible, without getting hit?
Make his techs more universally accessible as well, which make him exceedingly hard to deal with?
The changes to infection and such are interesting, removal of hindered for instead an extra bound is an interesting direction, which has a lot of points of discussion in its own right... but it's pretty hard to factor that in conjunction with also hitting every area of counterplay against his bound Survivors have?
I assume you must have played against triple bound Wesker in 2vs8 at some point? A good Wesker who could tech with triple bound was a monster, hard to juke him twice, let alone juke him 3 times.
There are definitely some interesting and good suggestions here to improve Wesker... but with them all added together? This is a pretty lop sided set of changes my man 😶😶😶
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@SoGo said:
Few patches back, a similar thing happened to Up The Ante, where it displayed that it increases luck by 1% instead of 3%.
So I assume this is again a typo.
Thanks for that, the prompt highlighted to me the thread name got reset somehow and I needed to update it xD
Obviously its a little tricky to test cause the differences are relatively small and prone to human error, differences are only like a second to a second and a half or so... however I THINK its just the description... and would explain why no one seems to have noticed 😅
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I don't mind so much the supporting one side more than another perce'... What I really hate is the selective amnesia, inflammatory language/drama queening, and blatant doom posting... Sadly short snappy/inflammatory posts tend to get more attention.
While I don't want to generalise the people who only play one side, in my experience they tend to be the ones who do this most often, and will usually play with/against something for 1 game, then write everything off without taking a second to think with any nuance, then beligerrently argue for their side while refusing to acknowledge any opposing perspective.
Some great examples being:
- Survivors saying Blood Amber on keys is trash now. Firstly, it isn't even at base, OoO on your beck and call is not trash. Second take Distortion, it's exceptionally good as an active escape tool.
- Killers saying that Maps with WoO basekit will be broken despite it being the much healthier and limited version of WoO that can't be used with a syringe medkit/max charge commodius.
- Killers saying the proposed PTB Knight nerfs make him "F tier", despite the fact that all it did was make banners come up slightly quicker and swap the utility of the Jailor/Carnifex around. (It was an unneeded/illogical nerf, but F tier really? Who the hell is relying on guards to get hits solo?)
- Survivors saying that Fog vials are completely unusable now, and that Killers whine and always get their way while Survivors get nothing and haven't had a meta perk since MFT, all statements of which is absolutely untrue. Yes the double nerf is not a good move for Vials and they are being overnerfed, but they are not "completely unusable". As for Survivors get nothing, Michone has 2 very strong perks, and several Survivors perks have been buffed to meta status, including Resurgence, Decisive Strike and Botany Knowledge, not to mention Chucky, Dracula, Ghoul have all been nerfed repeatedly with more nerfs toted to be on the way for Kaneki, and that's just a few examples.
- Anyone talking about upcoming anti-slug, anti-tunnel, whatever changes, like they know what's gonna happen before the features are even announced... until you are told what it is, how can you make your mind up on it?
When people embellish and overdramatise stuff to support their narrative instead of trying to define objective truth, it is beyond annoying, because instead of having a productive conversation, anyone seeking truth has to spend a good while taking the time to properly research it and then just pointing out all the places they are objectively wrong, which usually only results in an argument, even if they are provably correct.
Yes, sometimes more objective posts can get pedantic and cumbersome; expressing a balanced view point does tend to mean your response gets more complicated and takes more effort to do... but you simply cannot express a complex and nuanced opinion on a challenging subject within 2 sentences.
To my mind it is important to take as long as is necessary to properly express an opinion as fairly and objectively as possible.... something the Us vs. Them crowd simply don't do.
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They are still usable, but they are now in a camp of difficult to get value from reliably. They can be clutch, I did have a Vial I found in a chest work well for me on a couple of occasions... but of course there was also the one time it didn't work that got me killed.
Fundamental problem of course is they work better with survivors with dark clothes in dark maps and/or lots of corners as well, whereas before they were generally useful on everyone in majority of maps...
This is why I don't think reducing the opacity effect was the way to go. Vials being strong evens their usage out across the board... just give it a limited number of charges and the item is fine. If I can bait/burn that resource as a killer then it's all good... the issue with unlimited charges is I basically always have to commit to the chase for it ever to be worth it, and it often isn't on an m1 killer, where 1 misstep can leave me in no man's land with a minimum 15s catch up time.
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The fundamental issue of Nurse is that you can't really remove double blinks without killing her identity, and Nurse does have unique mind games to her that are quite fun against a Nurse that isn't truly God tier cracked.
However you also can't really do much about a cravked Nurse using blink to last known location and then blink on Survivor... this is what makes her insanely strong, and your only chance is that she fumbles it.
I agree with @PetTheDoggo. If you make her blind during blink charges and while blinking, then she always has to play Nurse mind games.
If you need more nerfs: -
- Hitting her Heavy Panting 30% additional lunge after chain blinking add on would make her more fair, since you have a better chance of mind gaming her still without the add-on just straight undoing it… Either reduce it, or I'd almost be tempted to make this reversed, where single blinking has the increased lunge.
- Resetting her tokens to 0 any time she gets stunned and preventing their recovery until she recovers would at least make add some skill based counterplay. Successful pallet stuns, flashlight saves, head on and decisive strike are all currently high risk very unlikely to work, all to only mildly annoy the Nurse currently. With this change would stuns would actually be viable tools against her, as opposed to not even be worth trying.
Then of course ideally we'd want to make her a little less obtuse and less inaccessible to newbies, and with these weaknesses we can probably give her some QOL improvements. E.g. off top of my head:
- Change fatigue to instead make survivors invisible with an appropriate visual effect for her recovery, instead of yanking the camera down and disorientating the Nurse player.
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@Skitten56 said:
I actually like her mori though. Simple but cool. If BHVR is going to add new stuff for her, they should replace existing content. Add a new mori to a new skin or something but please don't remove what we have for those who like it.
Her ambush charge time is actually fine now imo. If it was faster I think it would get pretty oppressive.
Pretty much no chance BHVR considers making Rule Set No.2 basekit. It would be pretty strong and it punishes newer players which is something they are very much against recently (See Onryo's TV auras always being on when in range for survivors). I'm just glad they still allow it as an add-on because given their design and balancing philosophy recently, I feel like they're more likely to remove it than make it basekit.
I still dont get why purchasable/equippable moris isn't a thing. Seems like a relatively easy win to me...
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@Callahan9116 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978614#Comment_3978614
He is actually viable at high levels against swf, something he never was before.
I don't disagree, but that isn't relevant to the point I'm making is it? He's viable by being stupid.
I could give Trapper a 15% Haste boost for 20s after placing a trap and make him viable against SWFs as well. Doesn't mean it's good design.
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I always liked Stealty Trapper and making disarming a problem for survivors:
- Bloody Coil
- Trappers Bag or any trap management add-on really. Iri Stone is nice.
- Hysteria/Alien Instinct
- Deathbound
- Deadlock/Corrupt Intervention
- Anything really. Discordance, Bamboozle, Sloppy Butcher, Surge can all be quite nice.
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Blight with Lethal Pursuer, Barbeque and Chilli, Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance and Grim Embrace.
It's hard to shake the idea that these Blight's have never had a single original thought in their lives…
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@Callahan9116 said:
He's actually good now.
He's stronger, but he's also cheap and boring. Everything and anything can be made stronger if you just add more haste, and Clown is literally just a 2.5 bloodlust bot now.
All the nuance, skill and knowledge required for the careful placement of his bottles to effectively outplay tiles is gone and replaced with throw yellow bottle at feet and brute force hits by walking down survivors.
It is fair to say that Old Clown did have to put in way too much work/skill for too little gain just to function at higher levels of play... but no gamer worth their salt would ever want a character to have all skill expression removed and replaced with herp a derp monkey brained cheese, no matter how much the character needs a buff.
If you ask me, the bottle reload speed improvments with the haste increase to 12%, maybe with the hindered reduced to 14% changes would have been fine, keeps the skill expression, improves his map traversal (his biggest weakness), and makes leaning solely on pinks less effective.
The tonic lingering effect reduction and reduced AoE, and antidote ploom speed changes should be reverted, or if antidotes do need to pop faster, buff it slightly to 1.75s or something, not a flat second.
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Definitely an over correction to my mind. Fog vials being strong to my mind isn't the issue... them being unlimited on a relatively short cooldown is the issue.
There's no point having them if they are weak, so have them strong, but... it shouldn't be a tool available to ditch tile and hold W into Narnia EVERY chase.
Limiting it to 2, maybe 3 uses with add-ons would have been plenty of a nerf with their current state, you could then see how that plays out and see if further nerfs are needed (or buffs).
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Whoa... it doesn't need a double (triple) nerf... yes I believe it needs reigning in a tad, but this is overboard…
What's with the nuclear option? Couldn't there be a more measured set of changes instead of applying 2 (3) major nerfs all at once?
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3977645#Comment_3977645
I can see where you're coming from.
However, I simply think that restricting the amount of uses they have is a solution that will end up not working, and is unnecessary.
The issue are the specific stats the item has, with it covering every single stealth stat possible, except blood pools. Scratch Marks? None. Aura reading? Disabled. Injured Noises? Hard to hear. Footsteps? None unless you have superhearing.
That's fair, and yeah, limiting it in some way shape or form is what's needed, and uses isn't the only way to do it.
I opted for limited uses because I figured people probably like the strength of the item, and it IS a good tool for what it does. I figure while it's annoying, it's managable if it isn't something you have to deal with every time it comes off cooldown.
However you could as easily impact it's strength on each use instead... those are also valid nerfs... I just dont think that would be a popular route.
We'd get the old "Fog vials do nothing, Survivors never get any good effects, blah, blah", whereas if it is strong but limited in uses, it is much more defendable as it CAN be clutch if used well.
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@SoGo said:
I feel like limiting charge amount would result in a solid minute of silent hill gameplay, because of how the cooldown prevents spamming.
My opinion is that the PTB to live changes were the last straw.
Is that really such a bad thing though?
I mean genuinely if 4 survivors brought 4 fog vials and spent the 2 charges each constantly to make lore accurate Midwich, would anyone really be upset?
I'd much rather Survivors blast me with smoke at the start of the trial and not have this permanent "stuff you, roll a d10 to see if its worth your time to try and chase me mr. M1 killer" tool every time I see them.
From Survivor side, I would like to have some degree of resource management to worry about, rather than LoL throwing every time the killer gets even remotely close.
Like genuinely on a map like Lery's, this item feels like Survivor equivalent 4.6m/s Scratched Mirror Myers. There are no decisions to make... you just have zero counter play, you hold no cards, you know exactly what the Survivor is gonna do, and yet you can do nothing about it except hope they screw up and otherwise slowly lose the game.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
It could just have both effects. Streetwise needed a buff imo
Not so sure of that, old Streetwise you could do some pretty gnarly stuff.
It's important to remember for generators, using a toolbox grants 40% skillcheck chance, and with teh right build you can really exploit this. One of my favourite uses of this effect was Bardic Inspiration, Streetwise, Built to Last with a Max charge Commodius, and most importantly avoid ALL repair speed perks (such as Prove Thyself or Deja Vu). You don't want repair speed cause you want to preserve charges, and slower repair speed means slower item consumption, means more 40% skillchecks. Working with a teammate was perfect because you both benefit from it and your repair speed is slower, keeping your Commodius for much longer.
With this even solo, you can really surprise rush generators hard, catching killers out with a generator at 0% one minute, then 90% 50s later.
Old Streetwise was no joke 😅
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Pig, Trapper, and Myers
In all 3 cases I feel like you can get pretty crafty with builds, making survivors think you are doing one thing, but actually faking them out with something devious/unexpected.
E.g:
- Face The Darkness Pig makes people think I'm going for headpops, when I am chase Pig.
- Bloody Coil Trapper with Hysteria and Deathbound to play stealth Trapper.
- Perma Tier 3 Myers with Alien Instinct and/or Friends Til the End, so people are less likely to realise I can see their aura after each hook since they don't get a sudden exposed proc.
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I don't really see why the old effect was removed... the new effect could have easily been a perk in its own right.
What I really like about the new version (excluding bugs), is you can take it with guaranteed items perks Residual Manifest or Scavenger and get a pretty hefty item.
Like with Scavenger, a regular toolbox comes out at 36 charges with 50% repair speed... that's not a slouch at all, basically a better Commodius at base...
Then of course you can also try your luck with Plunderer's Instinct and also get some pretty saucy items.... a Commodius itself comes out at a whopping 57.4 charges.
It's pretty darn decent... but I dunno why we lose old Streetwise at the same time. Nor Franklin's for that matter.
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While this is a necro, it is still a problem worth talking about.
Treacherous Crows has still been lumbered with so many unnecessary conditions, that makes its already limited use completely pointless.
It's downsides are:
- Takes 60s off generator time to perform the rite.
- The rite has to be performed in basement, which can be ratted out by aura perks and be very costly.
- Permanently injures and applies broken to the survivor.
- Can't be performed at the same time as another rite.
Weaving Spiders is actually something you can make work. The benefits of 10 charge BNPs applied to all gens is actually quite a good effect, enough to justify this list of downsides with the right build.
The aura read on Treacherous Crows though... is not. It doesn't matter how you slice it, you can't really afford just the 60s off gens for the effect... doing that is ALREADY a pretty meme build... let alone justifying the permanently injured as well...
It's one chance at relevance was being able to do it at the same time as Weaving Spiders... that would be something at least... but no, we don't get that either...
So Treacherous Crows is just in this daft spot where no matter how much of a fun build/off meta player you are, it's just waaaaaay too bad to even consider using... and that's saying a lot coming from me 😶
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@SoGo said:
It's a bug. It will get patched... eventually.
But, I want to say I hate the perk a lot.
It's not OP, but just awful from a design standpoint, like, did we really need to give flashlight clicking Aces ANOTHER bully tool?
Survivors just wanna have a fun horror experience...
Why you gotta be a buzzkill man 😏😏😏
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The only issue I have with the 60% kill rate... is the fact Nurse and Blight sit at a comfortable 67% and 69%, and due to averages this is perceived as fine.
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Its still early days, but she looks like she's in a good spot right now.
These 2 add-ons are excellent options and really help her in chase, but making them basekit would be a bit overboard I think. If she got WG and LW basekit, she would be free to throw in things like Crate of Gears and Tampered Timer, or Video Tape and Ruleset Number 2, while still retaining a pretty damned respectable chase, which would start to be overwhelming. Even high skilled players who don't properly respect her head traps can get caught out by them if the Pig recognises the head trap pattern and squeezes the team at the right time.
Pig is fundamentally not just a chase killer, she is a macro control killer, and can take numerous perks and add-ons to make her party hats quite difficult to manage. As such there naturally needs to be a trade off between the strength of her ambush and the strength of her RBTs.
What would you do with these add-ons if they became basekit? In its simplest form, you can't make Pig dash as good as Chucky slice and dice, and then have a ~360s death threat slowdown on top.
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975802#Comment_3975802
"Time Sink" is a bit of an understatement. It could easily over 100 hours of using RPD offerings just to get this achievment.
I do see what you're saying... but anyone even remotely serious about DBD is looking at at least 500 hours, and even that is on the shallow end.
Hell I'm over 2000 hours and still not considered a "veteran", I'm intermediate at best... my point is, as some who has 100% achievements (at least up to Springtrap), there are plenty of other achievements that are gonna stall you more than the RPD one, and you'll beat that long before you clear them.
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Meh, I feel like this achievement was not so bad myself really, it's just a time sink. Considering there are plenty of achievements that also require a strong time investement, and have some nasty requirements to boot; I did this one without using maps even when I could, and it certainly wasn't one of the last in my list.
The one that really sucks though without map offerings is Haemophobia, and with that in mind I still think maps should be 33% chance overall per side. I'd also consider returning unsuccessful map offerings back to the player as if the map offering was "rejected", unless a different players map o was chosen or a sac ward was used.
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I prefer it over the idea of Star Wars admittedly...
Though Mass Effect still falls short of say, the Flood from Halo, and I even still have squint at the idea of bringing that in. I feel like if we're going for Sci-fi horror video games, Dead Space is where I stop first...
However sticking with thinking about Mass Effect, the idea of the swarm seems like it has potential... though the paralysis feels like something that'd be hard to accomodate in any meaningful way... the Collector's tend to be focusing on capturing specimens alive for their own interests over outright killing...
The Collector General and his ability to assume control of the other collectors has promise to be interesting... but it also implies some level of autonomy required from the drones themselves.
You could make it work, but it is lacking a little in horror elements, and given the troubles that already come from Nemesis zombies, seems a little unattainable.
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Tryks' neutrality would explain the number of times Sables have royally screwed me over in SoloQ...
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@MechWarrior3 said:
I don't get it though. His hindered is only 1 or 2% less than what it is? How is that so terrible? They just made his yellow bottles stronger. The purple gas after leaving it doesn't hinder you as long but there is an addon for that for an extra second no?
I'm on holiday so I can only surmise by intuiting the changes and listening to what people are sayimg elsewhere...
However the general consensus from what I can see is: -
- The Tonic Hindered effect lingers after leaving the pink cloud 1 second less than it did before. This makes occasions where you clip a survivor with the cloud on tricky tiles much less effective. The 1% doesn't really change that much, but in conjunction with this change, it's a definite nerf to pinks.
- The Antidote plume used to take 2 seconds to activate, which while more complex to use, gave Clown the ability to fake bottle for survivors to dodge and took more skill to place and time them correctly to gain the benefits. Now you just throw them at your feet, no effort or knowledge required.
The result does mean that Clown is actually buffed overall... but he is so much less interesting to play as and against (which he was that interesting to play against already).
Instead of taking skill and knowledge to play tiles efficiently, he can just spam yellows at his feet and move with insane haste (bloodlust 2.5) for hits, and in a lot of cases stack a haste effect to do it even more...
It's not so much that Clown is weaker, he's in a lot of ways much stronger... but he's stronger in the most boring way he can be.
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Honestly, sound changes. Nothing to add, just posting to bump traffic and appease the algorithm. 😏
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@TheGoone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974247#Comment_3974247
Chase doesn't proc after a fog veil is used for the rest of the match and Pigs uses that bug to prevent survivors traps from stopping when being chased
Seems a little off to killswitch Pig for a bug that is mostly in control of the survivor to trigger... and in the same vein, we don't say a word about the item that also disables the killer from getting bloodlust, which itself is just as much of an exploit in its own right...
Killswitch/report the killer instead of killswitch the item that causes the problem and otherwise outside of Pig is an exploit for survivors that by the same logic should also be reported? Double standard?
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I will admit, I see no point running altruistic healing builds any more since strong self healing is back. You pretty much only take any altruistic healing perks in conjunction with a self heal build, since you effectively get both at the same time for only a couple of perks of investment.
... while Franklin's nerf isn't responsible for this shift, it's yet another log on the fire, and the destruction of an already niche perk is just not OK... it would have been nice to keep Franklin's since it's value and niche were improved with the Botany change, and makes a fair trade off for that buff, however guess not... the effect gets buffed and the counter gets nerfed.
Old school Franklin's detractors that I've seen tend to hold the argument that "it is unfair because it deletes the survivors build, and is the equivalent of Suvivors having a perk to disable the killers power". I don't agree with that argument because: -
- Items for survivors in vast majority of cases effectively reduce the amount of time the survivor team requires to complete actions, and compete directly with the killer's power and it's effectiveness at downing survivors efficiently in chase. Only 1 survivor can be in chase at a time, so losing 1 item still means the killer is competing against at least 3 other items at any time until those items are depleted.
- Franklin's is not free as it only works on an M1, which in a large variety of cases makes it a tool to help killer's that don't have the tools to otherwise effectively combat strong items.
- Items can be recovered and/or replaced with chests, with a number of perks even guaranteeing finding particular item types, or granting charges back, and if your build is so reliant upon said item, is something to factor into your build.
- There are some very effective all-in perk/item builds that push item strengths to the limits, that can be severely hindered by Franklin's, which in turn encourages use of other perks to help cover that counter (and thus diminishing the strength/cheese power of that build) or instead roll the dice on it the killer has Franklin's or not (and Franklin's was rare enough that you usually still took this risk regardless).
- Survivors working together/payimg attention on Franklin's can simply pick up a teammates item and put it down again to preserve its charges.
The threat of Franklin's gave you pause on if you really want to hard invest in the strength of your items, or consider other perks to cover that weakness. E.g.
- Pharmacy, Scavenger, Residual Manifest.
- Distortion to make finding you first before you can use your item much less likely.
- Old Streetwise/Built to Last and of course Exultation to recover/preserve charges.
- Additional charge add-ons in general to reduce the chance of Franklin's messing you over.
Now with Franklin's dead, a lot of these considerations no longer exist... which makes items a little unga bunga guaranteed value and thus mean we don't need to really care... considering it's this or Overwhelming Presence as the only options to counter strong items... they basically have no counter... so... suck it up I guess?
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Kinda wild, I was convinced the Antidote plume speed and the Tonic lingering effects changes were gonna be reverted... or if not reverted, at least met half way at 1.5s for both.
Honestly I figured only the reload speed/ walk speed changes and the Antidote speed boost changes were gonna stay when all was said and done...
Silly. I suppose this doesn't really affect high level Clowns already using combos of Antidote and Tonic at tiles that much... but scrub Clowns (like myself) are gonna be pretty obnoxious... 😐
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972027#Comment_3972027
The way they calculate MMR is so ridiculous tbh.
Hmmm... it depends how you look at it I think.
The community have decided what reflects skill in DBD, and if you look at it through that lens, I agree it is too simple in regards to a matchmaking system designed to put similarly skilled players in the same lobby.
Though in the same breathe, it is also a system that doesn't really define what the "correct" way to play the game is, which is something I generally think game devs should avoid. As simple as the system is, it does ultimately make it so it doesn't matter how you escape... as long as you escape... Someone pragmatic enough to save themselves over someone who risks their lives saving others is the player making better decisions to stay alive.
I personally think the MMR system as is would make sense from a ranking point of view... if MMR were exposed, it does make more sense... less so given MMR is hidden and the point it to match similarly skilled players together.
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@MrDardon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972041#Comment_3972041
You could still add him tbh, he is still terrifying when he appears. The Kenobi series wasn't that good by itself, but Vader was terrifying in it for example. They do good with Vader in my opinion while failing at everything else. And of course, he's a tragic character who never wanted to become evil in the first place. But then you have Spirit and Wraith, who also didn't want all of this but still ended up as merciless Killers.
And he could definitely be designed in a way to make him scary.. like stealth and you just hear his breathing sound coming closer towards you. Way scarier than Trickster or Skull Merchant for example.
Reasonably fair point, and to be fair its personal opinion at the end of the day.
I personally think even OG Vader requires a fair bit of lean to see put in the same line as the horror icons of DBD... but I could maybe let it slide... but especially with all the other baggage Vader now has, my ability to see him as the terrifying monster he was originally is greatly diminished, which make that lean so much harder.