UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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I feel like Scout is a weird one, cause other classes more is generally better, but I feel that Scout can be a diminishing returns type deal.
After all if 1 or 2 Scouts are revealing killer auras, and rebuilding strong pallets, that's good... but 3 or 4 doing it? Eeeeeeeh...
Though multiple Guides with Blast Mine, I've still not figured that out yet, cause that feels like the same kind deal to Scout... old Guides was definitely "the more the better", but new ones not so much. So things are kinda interesting atm.
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*Also meant to add that PH can spam his shots a lot more than Dracula can... but edit is still broken...
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@Zuiphrode said:
You also get less score for mori-ing someone compared to hooking them which seems silly.
@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
A big outlier here: even though Sadako's power is LITERALLY building up condemn on survivors so that they might be instantly killed, actually succeeding at this drastically reduces the amount of points you can get because you miss out on hook stages and more potential chases that might have been.
Of course... you denied the Entity a soul to feast on... what do you expect? 😏😏😏😏
Seriously though, I feel like points can't be standardised, because events are contextual and unique based on the killer and their unique powers.
I'm not going to claim that every event grants exactly the right number of points they should in every instance, but using the Pyramid Head/Dracula example:
These 2 powers are similar sure, but PH has trails he can draw granting 35 BP per second the whole game. Dracula scores off of Shape-shifting (50 deprecating to 25) and Flying to Windows (100 deprecating to 50). Needless to say PH can draw a lot more trails throughout the trial than Dracula can proc these events...
So I don't think its something you can standardise, you have to adjust for each killer individually. It'd be better to argue in favour of boosting bloodpoints gains for individual killers on a case by case basis. E.g. Pig... unlike Chucky can't use her ambush at every time, so granting her more Devious points off her RBTs would help her more, even though their powers look similar.
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Solid...
I feel Haddonfield and Badham are the 2 maps I get most upset spawning in on each side respectively.... both are an "Oh #########... here we go again..." sits up deal.
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What do you mean? That isn't a more optimal solution at all.
- Players get to queue for what they want to play, rather than thinking the queue is too long and not bothering.
- Players can play while waiting, which can be even better than queueing for normal queue. Also massively helps streaming.
- Killer players naturally help populate the Survivor queue at teh same time they are queuing, improving queue times for everyone... including you.
The feature is probably the most optimal solution that could be done for this problem... and realistically if you aren't in a game when other players ahead of you are, it would be self defeating to hold up the queue to wait for people to finish their games. All it will do it keep taking from the pool of players at the end of the queue.
End of the day, you don't have to queue Survivor if you don't want to, but if everyone does queue for it, it helps advance the queue for all... so you're not really helping yourself by refusing to play... and your penalty for doing so is staring at the lobby screen. So all is fair.
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Glad you're having fun friend 😁🤘
My first killer was Pig, I bought the game specifically for Amanda, because I was riding a huge SAW high and had been looking at DBD for ages. Pig was great to.learn because even to this day she needs good fundamentals, and her slowdown gives you a lot of time to learn.
I remember watching numerous Pig guides from Skorpionz, Otz and few others before I dared play a game... and summarily forgot everything... my forest kill though was a Survivor running out of gate with an active RBT on their head... I've never seen this happen since xD
I've always maintained that a new players ignorance makes DBD intense and scary. The atmosphere is great as a new player, no one cares about getting the sweat bands on and looping like a God, you're scared and timid, hiding in a corner... it's a great feeling that I miss 😌
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Yeah... Sadako is a little fangless atm, especially as the current wave of Power Creep keeps getting more and more prevalent. Survivor has had a slew of healing buffs that specifically wreck her required hit and run playstyle... I've seen several Sadako's have to resort to heavy slugging to get any kind of Condemn pressure.
It's the same thing as Huntress, the timings for Survivor have just gotten better and better and better, and despite the Sadako being the same/unchanged, they've been nerfed by proxy as the other side keeps getting better and better and mives the goalposts away from them. No one notices/talks about it, cause the killer side keeps getting newer and stronger dash heavy toys to play with that distracta everyone and fuels the Power Creep even more.
Can't really blame BHVR... this is what people keep asking for. I knew several people who kept fighting it, but pointing out what people don't wanna hear often leads to being ratio'd. They always want bigger and stronger perks, faster and more lethal killers... we're in an era where almost nothing gets nerfed, everything gets buffed, and it results in classic Power Creep.
I was fortunate that my main Pig got updates to at least keep in line with the Power Creep (though I feel more perk dependant and less build flexible than ever, I am at least pretty much where I was before in terms of strength). Sadako didn't get the same memo unfortunately.
Tbh, I'm not really sure what to do for Sadako right now. She's got a bit of the Legion problem... trying to make her effective against good survivors, makes her utterly steam roll against regular Survivors.... and the other issue is we've had 3 distinct versions of Sadako, and everyone's got a different opinion of what she should be.
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Sound idea.
Though I imagine queue time for Eyrie of Crows and Haddonfield will be a tad rough... gonna need some big BP bonuses for that xD
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I have heard that BHVR was interested is one of the extended Universe novels of Star Wars that was much more horror focused... I wish I knew which one it was... 🤔
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Grab her man, if you can use M1 killers well enough, you'll do alright with her.
Skull Merchant is pretty cool. I always liked her rich psychopath persona. Her lore needs polishing up a little, and you probably wanna look at some cosmetics cause her base skin isn't great... but the character has some underrated elements in this regard.
Don't bother foxusing on using drones in chase though, you'll likely waste more time trying to get value from tag lines... throw them out in chase to hopefully make less experienced survivors make a mistake for you to land a hjt, but don't ever expect this to really shunt anything massively in your favour.
Just use her as a 4.6m/s Undetectable m1 killer and take some chase perks like Bam or Brutal to help if needed, and you can have fun.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3986740#Comment_3986740
I think the activation condition is generally fine, because it's kind of double-gated. You need to have it up, and then the killer has to not instantly pick you up.
Having it be a one-time use would mean there's practically zero reason to use it over Unbreakable.
If anything, Second Wind could do with changing it's activation condition, not the other way around. Having a perk activation robbed because another Survivor decided to join the heal for a second is really annoying, and a big reason I don't run it more.
I think a perk having the potential to cause a bit of a headache isn't necessarily a terrible thing. It's a sign that the perk can be effective. If perks never caused the other side any trouble at all, that's a good indication that the perk is not good. It was a headache, sure, but it sounds like both sides were playing very well, and even with a low tier killer, you still got a pretty good result.
Weeeeelll, I suppose with the new bar thats been set for perks in DBD, yeah Second Wind is on the underpowered side.
The problem I have with this version of Conviction is there is little needed to earn it. Sure I have no issue with a perk being effective, but there is a limit... the big problem with Survivor perks is up to 4 players can take them, so if a perk is highly effective and quite consistently, then the perk becomes a problem, especially when it puts the killer in a lose lose, and when it also does it by passively existing.
So what's the issue with Conviction as it is? The problem is that it only takes 7.5s to reach 25% recovery. If you go down under pallets, that means you force the killer to pick you up within 7.5s or they risk you standing up and slamming that pallet in their face, and buying an extra 10-30s on the chase. That is a big deal for the killer, and one you can't ignore... but if you couple wipe mechanic minus the time to land start recovering for the Survivor (and I'll deliberately highball thia in the killers fabour to make the point) you drop this to about 6s.
This means the killer now has to effectively check the area for flashlight saves and pallet saves in less than 6 seconds, this is needless day very tight, ang the reality is your gonna have to yolo pick up more often than not to avoid this, which makes you vulnerable to flashlight and pallet stuns... the killer is in lose lose…
This doesn't even need extra perks to be effective, but you can obviously quite a few perks to make this worse and consistently get value...
So I'm not saying nuke the perk from orbit... but any notions that this perk "isn't that strong" is not at all true... it is definitely strong and causes the killer a lot of trouble. It's still early days yet, I'm not gonna say it's OP just yet but there definitely things go be concerned about with this perk and needs to watched carefully.
Regarding my game as Trapper, I did a 2k, and I did play very well... but while I'm not insulting my opponents... I would say they did not play quote as well... my traps did so much work, that tbh I would say was at an abnormal level of success for Trapper, and they certainly weren't exploiting their builds as hard as they could have been...
I left that game, feeling pretty lucky that I a 2k tbh... and that was after playing quite aolid... admittedly on Trapper, but even so... I saw several moments where they could have put me in a much worse position, and I breathed a big sigh of relief when they didn't... so I'm watching perk carefully.
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@IlliterateGenocide said:
On The official DBD wiki they are all assigned "roles"
Mikaela Reed is assigned "young mystic"
Not everyone has one though... sadge...🥺
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@IlliterateGenocide said:
On The official DBD wiki they are all assigned "roles"
Mikaela Reed is assigned "young mystic"
Hah!
So they are... never noticed that before... cool 😅
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
Kate- “the songbird”
Jill- “the S.T.A.R” (idk this one was hard to come up with
Nancy- idk
Yun Jin- “the manager”
Lara Croft- “the adventurer”
Some other ones that aren’t my mains
Leon-“the rookie”
Bill-“the veteran”
Meg-“the track star”
Detective tapp- “the detective”
David king- “the gay guy”
I’m kidding with that one. He can be “the brawler”
Quentin- “the daydreamer” idk this one is difficult
Steve Harrington-“the babysitter”
Jane “the late night host”
this was a cool idea! Thank you for the thread!
It's funny as a Kate main myself, my brain too went to Songbird 😅
Track Star was another that hit me for Meg xD
For Lara I struggle not to just use the Tomb Raider tbh 😅
For Nancy, that is indeed tricky, though if @CountOfTheFog has anything to do with it, "the Beauty" might be on the cards xD
I like a lot there xD
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@TheGoone said:
Bubba seeing they got a give buffs to killers in 2v8 he's just gonna be a miserable time against him
But how can you think of missing out DBDs Super Mario Brothers? 🥺
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Fighting over Sadako tapes would be gnarly... 😱
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I still think about the time I was juicing a Wraith in 2vs8, and after stunning again with a pallet, I was gonna embaress this man again with ankther vault I knew I was gonna make...
Only for Evan to come flying into my camera from the left side of my screen like some apocalyptic combination of Randy Orton and Bradshaw, and out of nowhere absolutely tomahawk clotheslined the holy hell out of my Kate into a backflip down...
I have never laughed so hard in any game of DBD before or since. That man scared the every loving crap out of me and hit the most awesome down I've ever seen. 🤣🤣🤣
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The fundamental issue of Legion is there is not really a way of making them strong against good survivors... quite often all buffing them does is make them better at stomping people who already don't play against Legion correctly... and this has always been the issue when trying to improve Legion.
The suggestion for 6m/s, with the change to reduce turn rate like Oni isn't necessarily a bad change, but it does suffer from the controller/mouse diff problem. This is also why I've never considered spin tech as valid "skillful" survivor counter play, because it's effectiveness differs massively based on whether you're against a console/PC killer (it's straight up embarrassing to get spun on PC, but par for the course on console).
So I'm less on board for this change, but not inherently against the 6.0m/s change. I'd also encourage you not to change Neversleep Pills, as even now spin techs are such a pain for console Legion (the time limit forces you to swing instead of being able to bait it out), this add-on saves so much annoyance with a fair trade off. Yes it's hard to use, but genuinely it takes Legion from being intolerable to actually being somewhat fun for a console Legion.
With that said, regarding the changes basekit, I'm on board with majority of them.
- Frank's Mixtape partially basekit is an absolute yes.
- Scratch Marks and Blood would definitely be nice.
- Blur and pitch lock aye, good changes.
- Pick up... meh not too invested either way.
Undetectable doesn't prevent Killer Instinct I am against though. The main threat of stealth killers is to make not healing a dangerous choice, as catching a survivor off guard is an instant down. The threat of being snuck up on passively slows the game by heavily encouraging survivors to heal. This value is usually traded off by slowing down the stealth killer while Undetectable (Pig/Ghost Face crouch, Myers tier 1, Chucky being 4.4) or having a lullaby/imperfect stealth (Sadako, Freddy, Myers tier 2). This is also why a lot of faster killers tend to make a lot of noise when using their power (Blight, Hillbilly, Kaneki, Wesker, Spirit, Nurse, Oni, etc). Even Dredge who is a stealth killer is just generally loud.
With this in mind, rhe main counterplay to Legion is to not heal and keep apart, and if Legion is taking stealth/oblivious perks, this makes these kinds of perks highly beneficial at removing his main counterplay, in conjunction with a killer that has pretty good map mobility. Unlike these other examples Legion only makes reasonable noise when they drop power. Given the number of perks that can easily grant stealth, stealth is not hard for a non stealth killer to acquire, that actually often better than actual stealth killers stealth. So Legion with direct Undetectable synergy would have all the benefits of stealth, with his power directly contradicting stealth usual weaknesses.
- Cooldown reduction, not sure it's needed, especially with the cooldown per hit change, but not too passionate either way.
- Reduced cooldown and fatigue per hit. This seems interesting, though would still encourage tunneling... you'd simply take the hits on your non tunnel target and then use the faster drop when you find your tunnel target. With that in mind I'm down for faster cooldown, less down for fatigue.
- Fatigue Speed and Faster vault, and vaulting perks. Given that their vault cannot injure people who try to tech him by vaulting back through them... not unreasonable. However vault and instant drop is the main dumbass ability that makes Kaneki as hated as he is... so I'd be careful here.
Those are my initial thoughts, haven't got to add-ons yet
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@ReverseVelocity said:
I don't think it's even that bad. It's a whole build to save 30 seconds. You can do that with Built to Last and a Commodious Toolbox for 1 perk + item slot.
If it were one time only or it was more difficult to get used, I'd be more inclined to agree, but it has a pretty generous activation condition, that even procs off yourself.
If it worked more like Second Wind, no argument, but you a literally final tap yourself or any heal to get it.
This perk does create a lot of obnoxious scenarios for killer. I have managed to mitigate it's damage in some games by playing like a God. I had one game where my Trapper traps put in work against this... scoring something like 10-12 snares... I got a 2k. I've had games as Trapper where I've gotten only 1 snare the entire game… needless to say, if my trap placement wasn't as devious as it was, and they were a little more aware, I'd have been smoked... and I was downing well, I was playing really good... and this perk gave me a quite a headache on 3 players.
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@VeinyAhhDihh said:
Killers really complain about everything lmfao
To be fair, this is pretty BS. I rate
Just go down vaulting a window or pallet and it's a free 10 second extension at least to the chase, and up to 30 seconds if there is safety nearby that the killer can't get to body block. It's even worse if Survivors go down under pallets and have a friend linger nearby. You can also put the killer in a must pick up situation via Plot Twist.
@MechWarrior3 said:
It’s only 30 seconds. After that they flop back down to the ground like a dead fish.
Also dude... only 30s? A 30s chase extension is massive...
I rate Tenacity cause it often buys me an extra 3 seconds on pick up as the killer fumbles trying to pick me up facing a wall to avoid flashies... 3 seconds can mean a key gen avoids a pain res, a heal completes against haemorrhage/mangled, a gate gets to 100 instead of 85...
30 seconds is not chump change... that's a massive chase extension. 😶
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Some of those options genuinely made me laugh the first time I read them in the poll itself...
I have got to enjoy that laugh once again 😄
Casual Berserk tho... 😶😶😶😶
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/453766/hardest-achiement-in-the-game
Hemophobia is harder
That's the one I'd put forward. I was doing this Solo without map offerings back in the day. That is a frickin' tall order.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
It might be about more than just the event. The messed up TWD chapter and unreal engine patch and many other things all adding up including everything being heavily delayed for the first time, might be part of the compensation.
I was gonna say, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a compounding compensatory bonus.
I mean, while I don't defend the myriad of issues that came out with TWD, I do have to admit, that chapter has had A LOT of changes, with several fundamental mechanics overhauled... and while people might not see it as a big deal, the 2vs8 update also came with a pretty major feature update as well.
People often complain, not just at BHVR, but all across gaming that developers are too slow to act on things and make changes, however this is the logical consequence of trying to change a lot of things quickly.
While I do agree things should be properly play tested before release, there is a question, do you want a lot of changes and new features quickly but with a lot of bugs making it through? Or do you want changes and features to be slow to come oit and more stable? Cause you can't realistically have both.
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@Katedavren said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3985771#Comment_3985771
Youre whole point falls apart when the ips didn't even get a chance to come out yet how can you criticize all future ips is my question in the first comment there's a complete oxymoron in it he wants classic killers but when I mentioned pennywise I got downvoted and he dismissed it
To be fair, your post is editted, and I can't see that argument... so I had to surmise the discussion based on a unknown hypothetical IP.
I also don't think my point falls spart, as I haven't said anything to contradict your support of particular IPs. To paraphrase what I said, I said the addition of any IPs should be subject to critique/gate keeping and expect to be met with resistance, because while IPs and support for them is all personal preference, debating on their quality and horror alignment in the only way to define a meaningful scale. Without doing this, literally any IP is fair game.
The examples I give are examples of bad entries in even major iconic horror franchises, with the point bfing, if these were the only entries in those IPs, i would not support their inclusion either.
As it so happens, I would support Pennywise being added to DBD, but epuld have to bevthevright version. While I do like the original Tim Curry version of IT, I would not personally accept this version as the version for DBD, and would insteadvaccept the remake version with Bill Skarsgård. Reason being the original has a much less consistent horror tone, and it's fear factor largely relies on Coulrophobia to frighten people, and doesn't have much beyond that. Meanwhile the remakes Pennywise is objectively more horrifying even without taking Coulrophobia into account.
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@thrawn3054 said:
Doesn't turning crossplay off also shut off match making incentives?
It's not that they get shut off, its that normally there aren't enough players to create a queue imbalance.
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@ManOMaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3985946#Comment_3985946
Why not? Please explain.
Though I do see how your idea would definitely be better than what currently exists…
Well, if all perks were available at all times, I think there would be issues with license holders.
Perks do also bear imagery and references to licensed content as well, and BHVR will have had to make a deal with licenses to allow them to distribute that content for free with the existing terms of the shrine.
With that in mind, even my suggestion likely wouldn't be doable unless BHVR ensure they only list a licensed perk in the shrine a maximum of once a week (like they do now).
Not that I exactly know that there is a deal in place... but I wpuld feel safe guessing that there is.
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I don't think that could ever work... however I do think the shrine should definitely be bumped to at least 4 perks either side.
I personally would make it 6 perks a side, where 2 new perks are added every 3 days, and the 2 oldest perks rotate out.
I'd also consider a "lock in" mechanic where a player can lock 1 perk in the rotation at a time, so if they see a perk they want, that they can't afford, they can lock it and still be able to save up and purchase.
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Although this thread looks like a bit of a hot bed... to possible answer where fallout may come from, criticism of a franchise or IP is not only something to be expected, but something that should be actively encouraged. Its all a matter of taste, but if nothing can be critiqued, then there is no way to define a proper scale of quality, and anything goes.
An example point is, just because something is fictional, doesn't mean you can pull anything out of your butt whenever you feel like and expect the audience to remain invested. In fiction you can establish any rules you want, but what you have established them, you have to stick to them, and the more the rules hold up as you look through those stories, the stronger a franchise is. Sure its possible for audiences to write additional plot elements to explain plot holes or plot contrivance, but a well made and well written story doesn't need it.
If I think of all the IPs in DBD, while I am a big fan of vast majority of IPs in DBD, there is not a single one with a spotless record of releases, and being passionate and critiquing those IPs comes with the territory.
As some quick examples of my own critiques:
- Nightmare on Elm Street 3 is where Robert Englund really hit his stride and the film had some great ideas, although some parts are a little goofy, it still worked. 4 is where things start to get a little played out and phoned in, where universal rules start contradicting each other and the films stop making sense.
- Alien 3 totally flopped the emotional stakes of the story, a horror movie doesn't work if you don't care about the cast surviving, and killing majority of characters off screen then making an inescapable hopeless scenario just kills audience investment. No movie since has ever gotten close to making the cut as they over complicate the Xenomorph biology and premise to the point we keep getting bogged down in ever more ridiculous and contrived plots to sustain the story to a point that no one cares.
- Texas Chainsaw Massacre 2 was nowhere close to the hauntingly subtle and grounded portrayal of the original, reaching a level of ridiculousness that can only be described as popcorn, switch your brain off schlock that you simply can't take seriously. There is no way this series of events and locations can possibly chain together in any world remotely constructed in reality/cause and effect.
- Five Nights At Freddys 2 introduces a whole bunch of mechanics that unlike the first game arbitrarily restrict the player in illogical ways. What can't I turn my head while wearing the mask? Why can't I use the camera while wearing the mask? Why do I have to wind the music box from the camera instead of just bringing it into the security room and winding it while holding the mask on my face? Same with FNAF3, why do my systems arbitrarily konk out? If Springtrap causes it, why doesn't he do it whenever he wants? Why can I see the animatronic ghosts, why did they never exist before, and why am I the only one?
- The SAW franchise largely retains the same core fundamental principles in 1-6, creating a series of interesting movies that generally work quite well as a whole. Saw 7, Jigsaw and Spiral however completely lose the plot of what exactly Saw is meant to be about, and don't even have a fundamental understanding of what even makes a trap a trap. There are numerous scenarios making absolutely no sense, both from a story continuity standpoint and just a logical interpretation of physics, e.g. how does a trap that stops a saw as a result of "giving blood" via that saw manage to then kill someone who fails to give blood? Doesn't the veey fact the saw cuts into their body satsify it's own killswitch condition? This is ridiculous and undefendable even if you are the most kind viewer trying to write the story for the writers.
Any respective fans of each of these franchises will of course have their own opinions. They may agree with me, they may disagree with me, but it is only natural to debate and argue about the quality and merit of a piece of work.
All of this is to say, if something can't be critiqued for it's horror alignment and horror quality, then there is no way of defining a standard. If I said "let's add My Little Pony to DBD", I doubt I'd have much support... but if the defence is "well I like it, and would like to see it in the game", then what possible objection can you give that doesn't shut this argument down?
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*appreciate Vecna's
*being completely random
*It's so sad when
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One thing I would like to see is his Eye changed to work better, as having to get both in and out of a locker before taking a hit takes too long to use majority of the time.
I realise the point is if you get both you can use them both at the same time for a long range teleport into invisibility... but that is so rare to get, and this requirement kills majority of uses of the Eye.
If it worked like Deception, that would be much better.
Alternatively have it so becoming injured and broken happens only when the invisibility effect ends, so that I can at least eat the hit out of locker and run, instead of just instant owning myself.
Also would appreciate aite Vecna's hand not being onoletely random, and at least trying to find a locker a minimum distance away. It's so so when you pop out of the locker literally right next to the one you went in 🥺
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I'd love a Saw part 2, with model updates for Amanda, maybe a Hoffman legendary, the Saw theme integrated properly into their TRs, maybe Adam Standheight from Saw 1 or Daniel Matthews (Eric's son) from Saw 2.
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Power Creep definitely feels like it's a thing. As Survivor I feel I've got a lot of strong perk options and combos to pick from more than ever before... but I'm also going up against killers that are on average getting stronger and stronger as well... it's weird to see Huntress once in a age, and they always seem to struggle a lot more than they used to…
Other than that, mostly the same as it's always been for me.
If survivors actively do gens and actually use the time you make in chase... tbh, game is usually not bad at all and a lot of fun (assuming you don't get comp Blight's / Nurses running full sweat, or someone cheesing Clown).
If survivors don't do gens and wander around aimlessly or keep trying for flashy saves and failing anyway... very frustrating, not matter what is going on.
If survivors actively run the killer to you working on central gens, even when you have Empathic Connection equipped, looping killers around hooks, and/or serving you up for tunneling 10 seconds after you get hooked... liable to pass out from forgetting to breathe.
Though the removal of self unhooks has been a huge improvement overall. I see far fewer quitters turning winnable games in to guaranteed losses than I was getting before, and that was always way more frequent and annoying than anything else I have experienced in DBD. So that's a major plus.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3985243#Comment_3985243
However, you do also acknowledge that there are scenarios where the killer has no reason to leave an area right?
Yes, I've said before and will continue to say that camping, tunneling, slugging, and stealth should be used situationally, and none of them can be outright removed from the game. It's really only the excessive use of any of these that becomes problematic.
If the "strategy" is to always, in every situation use these tactics, then that's a problem to be dealt with. As far as stealth goes, there was a good reason to try and prevent excessive hiding, where survivors aren't touching gens for 10+ minutes at a time. Unfortunately, BHVR's initial attempt at dealing with that also basically removed stealth from the game. It's less punishing for reasonable stealth now, but still has issues with the "slug for the 4k problem", which has been made actively worse in its current state.
As a simple example, if one Survivor is hooked and the other 3 are all lingering the area, then the killer doesn't need to leave hook. You might say "well leave hook and commit to the chase", but why? No one is progressing gens, the Survivors are on the clock here, not the killer.
The problem with this is that you're describing what I generally call "the survivors panicking and falling apart". The survivors have literally no reason to have everyone at the hook, even when the killer is hard camping. This is a tactical mistake, and as much as I hate to go this route, after survivors figure out that this is a tactical error, they will send, at most, one person to trade and let the others do gens.
So the common scenario is a killer standing at the hook, waiting for the survivor team to fall into this trap, and if the survivors are in any way experienced and/or coordinated they will just do gens and let the killer stand around doing nothing.
So once it becomes "only one person shows up" the killer is actively spending 100% of their effort and attention on the only 2 survivors in the entire game who are not progressing gens. The other 2 (or 3 if they're being greedy) are doing gens for free. This is where a lot of "gen rushing" complaints come from. Also unfortunately, instead of recognizing that it might actually be better to pressure the survivors on gens (and prevent the gen progress), they stand still and wait for the panic moment that may or may not ever happen.
If the point is the killer should "leave hook and go pressure the map", what if the the killer is able to generate the greatest pressure in the map is by camping? Isn't such an Anti-Camp mechanic effectively forcing the killer to lose the game?
The problem is that many of the arguments I see about "I need to camp this hook" are self-fulfilling prophecy. Most people argue this from a standpoint of "I have to camp my first hook of the game, since 3-4 gens are basically already complete", then they continue to stand around doing nothing and allowing the gens to finish. They then feel justified that "look, I had no chance" even though they are literally wasting time doing nothing at the hook.
Killers in general, simply don't look at their own gameplay. They aren't getting into chases quickly, can't find survivors (despite dozens of information perks and distortion being deleted), and are largely just waiting around the hook. Killers should feel pressure to keep survivors busy, which may be in chase, or could also be rescue/recovery, killer powers, perks like devour hope. Instead they feel so at ease they can stand around and scream at the devs to make gens slower.
So I'm raising the point, how do you make an effective anti- camp system, that doesn't punished the killer for camping when camping is the logical and sensible choice for winning the game?
Hook donation system. Each survivor can choose to donate their first hook stage to a shared pool that is consumed first before any personal stages, and the stages are refunded, in order, either at end game, or once a certain threshhold of gen progress is finished (say, 400%, which could be 4 complete gens, or cumulative partial progress to prevent 99-ing).
The late/end game doesn't change, it should not be that hard to get 4 hooks in a match. So "resorting to" camping and tunneling is untouched.
Early game camping and tunneling is largely nerfed. The game becomes (or goes back to) "how fast can you burn through hook stages", and the killer needs to basically always be in chase to get that done. They can just stand around the first hook of the game, but they'll be there for about 6 hook stages and automatically lose. So they will leave the hook, go chase someone else, and the gen progress slows down automatically.
The game goal of "getting someone out as fast as possible", which is the modern DbD meta, doesn't change. It's how you get there, by spreading pressure, and spreading hooks. If the survivors all swarm the hook, or trade, then you still burn through hook stages, but any time waiting around for them to panic is wasted. You need to be in chase as much as humanly possible to speed through hooks. This also creates pressure and slows down the game, and doesn't impact end game or scenarios where the survivors are making a mistake for you.
Been pondering this a couple of days cause it's a solid response, and a lot there I agree with
I would largely agree that those complaining about gens speeds while camping are indeed being Clownish and arguing in bad faith. I generally think players and BHVR don't take such arguments seriously.... though gen speeds aren't inherently argued from a camping position though, walking speed does playback huge factor in a killers ability to exert pressure. Telling Blight or Wraith to leave hook and chase far afield and don't come back is fair enough (and they often do with BBQ), but saying the same thing to say Ghost Face or Hag isn't quite the same bag.
There are also plenty of survivors who will complain about camping and tunneling, while also looping the killer within 20m of the hook, unhooking less than 10 seconds after the survivor got hooked, and survivors who run through the killer to trade when there is.no logical reason to do so... again, I believe the community at large and BHVR don't take these people seriously.
This hook pool system does have a couple of niceties, first and foremost it would prevent camping.... also it'd be nice that if a survivor does dumbhook me, it's the team who suffer, not me directly... lord knows 95% of my rages on DBD are caused by teammates being collosally cowardly/stupid/selfish... there aren't many times its actually the killer who makes me mad (barring a few recent exceptions, such as Kaneki at his worst and Clown).
The only concerns I have with this hook pool system are: -
- It greatly favours map mobile killers who can traverse the map and get to other survivors quickly, giving even fewer incentives to play less mobile killers. Slower killers don't have the threat of tunneling to generate pressure... a bad survivor unhook still results in 1 more hook off the pool. I can genuinely see higher skilled players taking faster unhooks because "its Legion, so who cares? Just unhook".
- Not do sure it solves tunneling, because nore mobile killers can also reasonably expect a fast down with time to run back to the hook and take another hook stage off the injured survivor, this is something that a slower killer can not do... so it would likely mean tunneling is a privilege of the S/A tiers.
- It makes tracking hook stages muddy for killer if adding to this pool is optional. I do like to take 2 hook stages off of everyone whenever I can, and especially if someone DCs cause I'm playing well, I like go take my hooks and let them go... this could be/couldn't be split hook stages muddies that whole thing, where in some situations I can't kill someone I need to kill (like a flashlight duo going down under pallets), and in other situations I accidently kill someone I don't intend, cause if the opportunity presents itself and I'm trying to chew through hook states, but don't know how many have been given up to the pool.
- It so seems to favour SWF more than Solo survivor inherently.
But interesting to think about.
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I would assume killswitching is centred more on a measure of: -
- Bug severity. How impactful the bug is.
- Reproducability. How frequently the bug occurs
- Bug resolution. Whether or not a fix is in the pipeline/whether or not the bug is very costly, but isn't going to be fixed within a reasonable time scale.
If you give marks out of 10 where the higher the score means likelihood to killswitch, I'd imagine some recent bugs might score something like:
- Streetwise charge bug: 6, 10, 3 (fix was in the pipeline for next hot fix, so despite high scores elsewhere, wasn't deemed serious enough to KS).
- Wesker 2vs8 bug: 8, 2, 2 (no fix available for some time, meaning Wesker would be disabled the whole event for a bug that didn't reproduce regular, despite being game breaking for the Weaker player and 1 other survivor only).
- Deathslinger ADS bug: 3, 10, 5 (cause of issue unknown and may take moderate time to identify, for an issue that, while reproducible, isn't game breaking enough to warrant a killswitch).
- Trickster Crash bug: 10, 10, 7 (issue likely to take a while to resolve, and caused game to be completely unplayable and shutting down the server, a bug impossible to ignore.
I would imagine the logic goes somewhere through this kind of thought process, for better or worse.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3985222#Comment_3985222
what exactly do you want from an Anti-Camp mechanic?
I want the devs to be consistent with whether or not a player standing still is considered participating or not.
Because, for survivors, we got "anti hiding" which hard punished you for doing so, and cries were launched so broken that you couldn't even sneak. Both of these systems, even right now, evaluate if they consider the survivor to be "playing the game" and, if not, punish them with either a waiting period, or giving away their position in the match.
For killers, standing around at a hook, for up to 70 seconds at a time, is somehow different. This isn't gameplay either, and, honestly, the killer determines the gameplay. But this is somehow defended ferociously by the community, and "ok".
What you need, is a system that says "go chase survivors". Go play the game. Go create the gameplay. Don't just stand there and admire the furniture.
And you can't do that with incentives, they tried. Gen kick meta brought about more camping and tunneling because killers had more time to waste doing nothing. Slowing down gens did the same thing, only led to an increase. There is nothing within the match that can incentivized people to stop standing around doing nothing at a hook and calling it "gameplay".
The only incentive that might help is extrinsic, or outside the match. Basically, make the old BBQ BP bonus base kit for hooking multiple survivors, which doesn't impact the match or balance, but rewards the killer outside the game.
So, personally, I expect "anti camp" to mean "the killer leaves the hook and goes to pressure the map", and is punished somehow if they don't do that. And AFC does not, in any way, make this happen.
Sure, fair enough, those are admirable goals that I don't disagree with, and is generally how I do play killer myself...
However, you do also acknowledge that there are scenarios where the killer has no reason to leave an area right?
As a simple example, if one Survivor is hooked and the other 3 are all lingering the area, then the killer doesn't need to leave hook. You might say "well leave hook and commit to the chase", but why? No one is progressing gens, the Survivors are on the clock here, not the killer. They have to get by him, and by staying near the hook, the killer can potentially get multiple injuries, maybe even a down without even a trade being made, massively increasing their pressure to snowball the game.
Another more realistic example is the Killer may have found a Survivor as they left hook, and that may have tried to loop near the hook and got downed trying to make the trade... in this scenario the killer through simply making logical choices(and through faults of the survivor) has 2 survivors down/hooked, one nearly losing a hook stage, and another survivor slugged on the floor... the killer should camp in this scenario, because a third down gives them immense pressure, and maybe even wins the game outright.
If the point is the killer should "leave hook and go pressure the map", what if the the killer is able to generate the greatest pressure in the map is by camping? Isn't such an Anti-Camp mechanic effectively forcing the killer to lose the game?
This is what fears around camping prevention centre on. Often there are situations where camping is outright losing the game, but there are conceivable scenarios where camping is the best course of action, and a good number of them are Survivor induced....
So I'm raising the point, how do you make an effective anti- camp system, that doesn't punished the killer for camping when camping is the logical and sensible choice for winning the game?
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@nakedcat said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3985190#Comment_3985190
No originally it was meant to address camping; it was called anti-camp. Later, it changed to specifically target face camping which was already pretty rare (no one besides Cannibal used it reliably). This distinction was made by the developers as well which is why people point out it doesn’t solve the issue of camping.
Fine... it was originally called Anti Camp, and changed to Anti Face Camp... I'm not disputing that point, but I'm pointing out that Anti Camp is not failing to do it's job, Anti Camp does not currently exist, and it serves no purpose debating about a hypothetical feature that was never implemented.
So the AFC not addressing camping is completely expected, given it was changed to Anti Face Camp, and it allows you to trade much easier and prevents the killer from effectively defending the hook than it does without it, which is why the feature is banned in competative play.
But irreapective of what the AFC does or doesnt do, my question is the same... what exactly do you want from an Anti-Camp mechanic? If you intend to stop the killer from camping, what do you propose with consideration to the situation I have highlighted above? Is the killer forced to place all hooks outside of a 3 gen, because an effective anti-camp system would mean that hooking a survivor inside a 3 gen would mean they can no longer defend that 3 gen, without also allowing the survivor to unhook themselves.
What is it you want from an Anti Camp feature IF it existed?
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984964#Comment_3984964
The system is meaningless. While you cannot facecamp anymore, facecamping was never good to begin with. And even with the AFC you can be so close to the Hook as Killer that you are easily there before the Unhook happens to at least get a trade.
We've had this debate before, but this is the first time I've seen this point made in this way...
Isn't that the intention though? Cause the problem of face camping was that in a fair number of scenarios it was impossible to even trade, including various Iri's, and characters like Bubba and Billy. This is what the AFC addressed and was successful at doing so... it is rare that Survivors don't get a trade now against a camping killer.
So I am genuinely curious, what do you want exactly from an anti-camp system?
I'm not a killer who camps as a rule, and I mostly play Survivor, but I am aware that camping is a possibility and I actively take it into consideration with my decisions. A camping killer is actively sacrificing gen pressure for a hook stage, which now takes 70s instead of 60s. I will exploit this to get as much time on gens as possible, especiallyif I see no one repairing on the HUD.
With this in mind, do you want no camping at all? What if I have a 3 gen as killer and the Survivor makes a mistake and gets downed in that 3 gen, and I then hook in the middle of it, which is logically what I should do? Does the killer now have to leave because of a Survivor mistake?
The killer already has a 16m zone they have to steer clear on in this scenario that limits their ability to patrol said 3-gen... what range wpuld you propose that solves the problems of camping you perceive and doesn't punish the killer in this scenario? Or do you think the killer should be punished in this scenario?
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I've certainly experienced this before, but for European servers at least, over the past 4 months, it's been lingering around ×0.00 to ×1.50 bonus for Survivor most of the time, and queue times have been less than a minute... and Killer queues have also been not much longer for me...
I have rarely seen Killer bonus go to ×1.50, but most of the time its always Survivorside bonus, so I've been watching carefully for anomalous queue times... but thus far for me, the queue times have matched...
However my queue times regardless tend to be less than a minute, so while I've been tempted to maintain a spreadsheet logging the queue bonuses and queue times... my times aren't really long enough at any point to be statistically relevant 🤔
So sadly I can't help confirm of deny in this regard 😶
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@RpTheHotrod said:
First thing I do is usually head right to a center gen, wait for the killer to leave the area (usually they make a run straight for it unless they are using lethal pursuer), and then slam it out asap. If you can get center gens early in a match, then the odds of success goes up dramatically. It helps eliminate the possibility of getting 3 genned and forces the killer to have to patrol gens much further from each other.
The push me pull you rhythm of that ofc being, if the first chase goes badly and ends up getting hooked near that gen, or if the hased survibors runs to middle to use the main building stronger tiles, it becomes a problem... I've had games where trying to break the middle gen has been absurdly painful after these moments 😔
Opening theory is pretty fun to think about 😅
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I often felt prior to this change, the players who want chase would run in to the map and the players who didn't would start working gens.
Now I feel the logic is reversed somewhat, where if you want chase, immediately start working the gen to make gens noises (so you're easier to find) and force the killer to deal with you, while everyone else fans out.
So I don't think its a flaw to start the gen you spawn next to. The killer is likely to find SOMEONE at the start, and doing the start gen means either: -
- The Survivors have the best shot of getting 1 gen out ASAP during the first chase while a player who fanned out gets chased.
- The Survivors can get more progress on higher priority gens as the killer takes a little longer starting up the chase to prevent the first gen being optimally rushed.
Do I don't see why it's necessarily a bad decision not to do the first gen you see.
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I will say at least Ghoul got nerfed to place when a bad Ghoul does get run over at least... if the Ghoul isn't good, he can get beaten pretty convincingly, which is an improvement over before (where even the most clueless Ghouls holding W and kicking pallets all game could still run over even good survivors).
However yeah... against a Ghoul who really knows what they're doing, it is totally on them to lose.
I have a feeling these 2 nerfs back to back were experimental... I cant find where it was, and not that I agree with the approach, but BHVR nerfed Fog vials, then immediately asked the question which nerf discouraged you from playing Fog Vials more?
I have a suspicion that Fog Vials are gonna get buffed again... the question I think is, are we gonna get the higher opacity with low charges, or the weaker opacity with more charges?
Personally I liked the low Fog opacity Vials with lots of charges, and I feel the Iri should be high opacity with low charges... so we effectively get both... I would be surprised if that isn't what happens sometime.in tbe near future.
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I feel like the Iri should be old Opacity with 2 charges (plus additional via the add on), and the regular should have current opacity with 4 charges (plus additonal via the add on).
Gives 2 distinct variants, the iri one easier and more reliable to get immediate valuable from but with fewer attempts, and the standard one has more uses but requires more careful usage with additional supporting perks to reliably get value.
Ofc their different performances in maps needs to be addressed regardless (if possible).
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@indieeden7 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3983891#Comment_3983891
An equivalent would be a survivor perk that removed killer add-ons and forced them to go back and pick them up if they wanted to use them.
Well, that sounds accurate, but it falls short for a few observations:
- Killer add-ons affect the entire killer team, Survivor items affect 1/4 of the survivor team. So a equivalent survivor perk would be 4 times more impactful.
- Survivor items are limited in charges inherently, whereas killer add-ons are permanent. It is entirely possible for a Survibor to spend the value of the items before Franklin's even comes into play, whereas for an equivalent Survivor perk, that would never be the case.
- There are 4 survivors, meaning if an item is dropped, another Survivor can pick the item and use it in their allies stead, the killer can not, only they would be able to go back and pick it up themselves, something that would be highly devastating to the killer to have to taketh time to do.
- Franklin's can be countered by simply putting the items down somewhere useful and only picking it up when needed. A killer cannot put their add-ons down.
So I don't think that argument is as solid as people tend to think it is.
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I now struggle not to see Trapper as an angry old farmer shooing kids off his property.
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@Birken13 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984410#Comment_3984410
I wish BHVR let DBD have more gore. More blood, decap in Moris, even visible wounds after hits would be so cool. I know some countries block gore, but why not just add a setting? Lock gore off by default where needed, and let others turn it on.
Too right lad, every horror fan has a favourite kill, this just makes sense.
If I'm perfectly honest, if they aren't going to redo them, I still dont understand why BHVR haven't done custom/equippable Mori's you can buy in the store for each killer.
It seems like such an obvious free win of a new revenue stream to me...
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You aren't stupid friend.
If I were to offer a different perspective, there is no "correct" way to run tiles. At the end of the day you are notvfacing a predictable bot that is gonna teact the same.way every time, you're facing off against another human, and ultimately you're both trying to guess what each other are gonna do. There are things you can do to help swing things more in your favour and give yourself the best chance of succeeding that gamble, but at the end of the day it still comes down to prediction and guessing what the killer is gonna do to maintain chase for any length of time.
A skill I picked up around about the 1200 hour mark where you're at now, is I really started trying to incorporate fakes into my movement. Line up like you're going to fast vault, or wobble like youre gonna turn to drop the pallet, and then turn instead. This can make you look stupid if the killer doesn't buy it and just swings through at you... but if they do buy it, that's an extra 5-10s. Do this a couple of time into a good pallet that you can throw and eun, and hey, you've made 25-30s. If you add pre running into that, you may take it to 40s.
One thing I started doing is taking off exhaustion perks. This forces you to pay attention much more to the macro of the game, and really be disciplined about reading the game. Exhaustion perks cause bad habits in a lot of players, and let people get away with things they really shouldn't. By removing them, you always have an extra gear you can go up by using them, and you'll be surprised how much more fun with DND you can have when you have all 4 perk slots yo play with kantwda of having to reserve them for particular perks.
Lastly dont worry about getting hit, eventually you are GOING to get hit. If you have nothing else to work with and you know you are done, run in a straight line to the edge of the map. No one is expecting you to loop the killer for 2 minutes while using no tiles... fundamentally all youre trying to do is waste the killers time,and even if you brain in hand just run to edge of map every time you get hit, you'll still waste 20-30s just from them walking after, downing, and then hooking you.
We have people with 10'000 hours in this game, you don't know if you're playing with smurfs, or people who are playing cross platform. Don't compare yourself to anyone else but you man 😁🤘
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@Astel said:
Why is Tenacity up there as OP mechanics for survivor?
I love Tenacity... my legit favourite DBD perk, even before this Convinction Soul Guard nonsense started.
I cant agree it's OP in any way...
But its heart warming/validating to see it listed ☺️
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Go I hope so.
I'd love a Mori pass in general to bring the golden oldies up to post Singularity standard.
Top 5 shouts for a Mori update: -
- Trapper
- Wraith
- Plague
- Pig
- Hillbilly
A fair number of others could use animation cleanup/better weighting on blows/extra blood/gib improvements/better audio, but mostly look passably OK... but these all need the actual Mori overhauled.
I would quite happily make suggestions... but I'd be typing here a while xD
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
No Mither is so terrible that having it give you infinite Finesse is pretty ok with me.
To be fair... thats supposed to be what Resilience is for 😅