UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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@MrDardon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971946#Comment_3971946
There were rumors that they might consider Darth Vader as a Killer.
If it happens it happens. And if it happens, well then they should add those extra cosmetics too :P
The rumour I've heard is that Disney want Vader.
BHVR want a specific part of the Star Wars extended universe novels that Disney axed and made non-canon.
Darth Vader MIGHT have worked if the movies stopped at the Original Trilogy. Younger generations (including myself) find this hard to understand, but Vader in the OT was an incredibly imposing figure and quite horrifying in every scene he appeared... you'd have still been pushing it a tad, but if you watch the OT in a bubble, it makes more sense.
He was so intimidating in fact, that Boba Fett, a character who doesn't have more than maybe 10 words in the whole series of films, and isn't even named throughout the films, became a fan favourite character just because he didn't cower in Vader's presence and Vader seemed to respect him... everyone is sat thinking "who the hell is this guy for Vader seemingly being cautious with his words around him?"... Vader was held THAT highly as a villain.
The problem you've got now is the prequel trilogy did so much to undermine and tear down the mystique and aura of Anakin/Vader and the force in general to be fair, that it retroactively detracted from Vader's imposing presence and makes it much harder to take him seriously. (and I'm not really a prequel trilogy hater myself, but when you look through above lens the backlash from OT fans does make more sense).
The of course you have modern Star Wars, where select movies and TV series have also done a lot to make Vader look more goofy and pointless... where Force Awakens brought back Vader's helmet to emulate the helmey with Kylo... Last Jedi drops that plot point completely, and even belittles the helmet of Kylo, relegating it to a joke, and thus belittling the helmet of Vader by association... and even have the cheap nostalgia baiting representations of him in series like Ashoka...
Basically the problem is Vader's aura have been so massively undercut, that whatever reasoning and logic you could have squinted at to let him slip under the radar bring him to DBD, now it totally shafted beyond repair, and he just doesn't fit. Admittedly Rogue One did a great job of restoring a lot of Vader's (and the Empire's) credit... but it's one bucket vs. an ocean of damage the character has undergone that has totally shattered his one iconic status in pop culture.
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@thrawn3054 said:
It all depends on what matters to you. If escapes matter to you than leave. Nobody is entitled to an end game save. I get that it feels bad to leave them but sometimes it's the better play. Generally I'll try to save unless I know I can't without dying in their place.
This is also a major element of the horror theme... tapping into that idea of, can you live with yourself getting out alive by sacrificing someone else, especially when you know you might be able to save them?
This very factor of feeling bad to leave a player behind is precisely the emotion you are meant to feel in this scenario... you can try and save them... but by doing so, you are risking everything yourself... in horror, heroism does not help your survival, ruthless pragmatism does.
It is why if you die and 3 other players escape, MMR considers you to lose as a survivor, no ifs ands or buts... trying to save others is the morally right thing to do... but the smart thing to do it just leave... @jamally093 what you've described is a perfectly designed feature of the game to emulate that feeling dame feeling/conundrum you would face in an equivalent real world scenario.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970249#Comment_3970249
What could work is either some simple M2 attack, which would not be liked by Skully mains, but would work…
That I believe is an issue, my friend.
Because a killer rework should always prioritize those who play that killer, as they are the ones who spend time, money and bloodpoints on the character. They keep the killer alive. Something that would displease her mains shouldn't be included and, in this case, it is the projectile.
If SM players wanted a projectile, they would go play another character.
I do agree with you for sure... but part of me feels like we're a minority trying to beat back an army of flame throwers, with only thimbles to draw water...
I have a feeling that trying to fight for old merchant will land on deaf ears... but at least if we throw a hat in the ring and roll with BHVRs changes on new Skull Merchant, we might at least keep some of the killer we had 😔
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970247#Comment_3970247
Well, I simply try to think of it how I would handle the rework to be succesful.
Passive lethality will never be accepted by survivors in Skully rework. It is what it is, rather than trying to fight it, It's better trying to figure out how to make it work for her.
Drone buddy is hard to tell what they think about it. I just don't want it to be controlled, or any difficult AI pathing. They are just not good at those and it never worked in past. Knight, Twins, Houndmaster, Nemesis (zombies)
What could work is either some simple M2 attack, which would not be liked by Skully mains, but would work…
Alternative would be to make it work passively simply whenever you are near claw trapped survivor, or if you hit claw trapped survivor. Hard to say what it could do, but definetly needs to be something simple.
It could also be something completely different and he would just help you during the game with other actions like breaking pallet/gens.
He could also on command "boost" other drone and give them additional effect…Drone buddy can definetly work, especially if they give it some fun animations. We have seen this concept in so many games.
I think making her drones mostly information based is only way how to make the rework work for survivors… Now it's just a question how to handle rest of her kit, so she is still viable.For some reason I have the impression the drone buddy is gonna have an attack a little like Unknown but smaller and without the bounce.
A "fire→stick →delayed detonate" mechanic might be kinda cool. Accurate shot grants a hit guaranteed, but a missed shot/shot to terrain can still get hits and maybe opens some interesting options.
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My personal stance on it man is... play him. It's very important that you do to objectively assess and really understand the strength of the character. More importantly, it let's you see what survivors do against him and make an honest assessment of how much of the hatred against him is justified or just salt.
Gaining a lot of experience with the character and really understanding him, means you can effectively argue for or against any proposed changes to the killer... However if you don't play him, and let the mob have their way with him, you get a Skull Merchant situation.
Personally, I would say if the Ghoul didn't stop me in place on his vault, I would have much less hatred for him. A Ghoul who out Kagune Leaps me at a tile is fair enough... maybe still annoying like Blight, but at least took skill to do.
What annoys me is I can't leave tile because his leaps cut me off, and often I can't stay at tile because of his vault not only being very fast, but also stopping me still as well. I can't leave tile and I can't stay at tile... but I also can't say if this a good change because I don't play Ghoul...
I tend to think with his absurd mobility, free injuries, and fast Wesker vault, with some Blightesk cut off potential, he should still be plenty good without the hinder... but I am not 100% sure.
So... play him and be the well informed voice that cares about both the killer and survivor experience.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969688#Comment_3969688
Yeah, I literally just did.
I got a lot of value from Drones.
I'm sensing, given I know you despise this killer... that individual killer MMR might be playing a factor here...
You're obviously the best person to assess it, so will take your word... but Skull Merchant is so laughably easy to beat, I struggle to see how any decent survivors fall foul of her scan lines... they do nothing against people who know what they are doing...
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I watched this same video and discussed it in our local discord.
I think one of the big things about DBD, and one of the points I disagree with in the video is "DBD is a casual horror game". I started playing this game a little over 2 years ago, 15th May 2023... which means I began playing in this modern era of killer, perk and mechanic overload... and there was absolutely nothing that made me think this game was casual in any shape or form. Maybe it was because I was a solo survivor with no one telling me what to do, but right from day one, I could see how much depth and scope this game had...
This game attracts a certain type of player... it is a absolutely not a casual game for everyone, and a lot of these new player experience break downs I think don't really acknowledge the fact that DBD is a very unique game, with a big time commitment for a much more dedicated and serious audience than something like Fortnite as used in this example. The no build mode proposed for Fortnite works because its similar to existing games that casual players are already familiar with... but DBD is not a typical game... it is a very unique game with not much out there (that has survived) like it.
So with this in mind, one thing I think people miss a lot in these analyses is the new player mindset. New Solo Survivors are scared (DBD is quite scary for a new player), confused and not expecting to do well. New killers are also scared (funnily enough), confused and not expecting to do well. However if you are solo (and follow the bloodpoint bonus), matchmaking actually does a good job of pairing you with players in your range and your games are scary, kinda manic and usually a lot of fun...
The big problem becomes... a lot of survivor only players want to play with their friends... and this brings a new player into an arena with much better killers that pound on them over and over again. I noticed it loads when I was new and playing (after I made a few friends), that if I paired with them, my games got MUCH harder. This is where I believe the bulk of this "DBD is horrible for new players" idea comes from. You get players who have new accounts, few perks, and no experience being dragged into games where their teammates and opposing killers are running meta perks and playing pretty darned serious. They are effectively trying to run before they can walk, and every video talking about this stuff doesn't really acknowledge this.
Even in this video there is a severe lack of teaching a player and walking them through basics. You hear him syaing "what happened, just throw the pallet?", and alike. I myself got asked by my 14 y/o nephew about DBD, and I spent about 30 mins - 1 hr in a custom games, just taking him through the very basics of looping, gen repair and other ideas. I gave him a simple build, with basic rules to follow around hook states and when/where to heal, all to help him survive... and he is actually already better in 20 hrs of gameplay than 90% of soloQ I play with, and still having fun.
So what is the real experience of a new player not being railroaded to failure by their hard meta friends? One thing I will say, and a great strength of DBD, is DBD is a fundamentally simple game... the actual rules of the game are very easy to understand. Repair generator, power gate and escape vs. Patrol generator, chase and hit survivors, 3 hooks to kill, kill as many as possible. Survivors it is fun to be scared and killers make a lot of mistakes... and killers it's fun to chase and survivors are making a lot of mistakes... if you put in even a little effort to research the game, watch some streams and guides... you can start doing well fast.
You compare this to something like Texas Chainsaw Massacre, where you've got 4 different escape routes, all with unique paths and rules to learn, maps that are large and convoluted that must all be learnt, all while the game is probe to rush strategies on both sides, made worse with no real matchmaking and perks/builds giving HUGE advantages over players with incomplete builds... yeah the initial learning curve is stupidly hard in TCM... but in DBD you can get up and running fairly quickly, and you don't need to know much more than a few basic principles.
My point is DBD doesn't come across as a casual romp... you understand early this game is gonna take some investment to get good at... but the game at its base is fundamentally simple... and anyone who puts in a little effort with the huge number of guides out there online will do fine... As long as they aren't playing with their 3000 hour survivor meta sweat mates.
All that said, a better tutorial would be a good idea.
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We see in a lot of games, such as Marvel Rivals and such, that often console players take a lot of abuse from PC players, simply because console players cannot type back efficiently on a pad, so a keyboard warrior can go to town.
So I'm rather uninterested in a console chat... but if it is added, I would also like a feature to automatically mute it every game.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969476#Comment_3969476
Well, my friend, it is a weird mix between what should and shouldn't be done, which makes me concerned.
I don't mind if her drones become something similar to what they originally was, but I really don't want a mid-range M2 / skillshot. I really dislike such killers, and I don't think a trap killer should have an ability such as this.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969490#Comment_3969490
Yes, I agree completely, my friend.
What makes it even worse is the fact that we already have many such killers. If I wanted to play a projectile killer, which I don't, there are other options. SM shouldn't be turned into one.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969495#Comment_3969495
Fair enough, my friend, it is your call :)
I agree with you man. If this is the way it'll go, it'll all hinge on how this projectile/drone is gonna work...
I, Iike you, liked her 2.0 design overall, saw a lot of potential and unqiueness in it… kinda a shame if we're gonna move comepletely away from that...
However in the same breathe, I do have fun with Huntress and Deathslinger, even on console... so while it's sad seeing 2.0 go... I'll take this over 3.0... tbh I'm just glad to see people finally actually talking about her... 😮💨
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@CountOfTheFog said:
Given my fear of The Pig in this game, what would I expect if I watched her in the movies? Jump scares like in the game I presume?
I'm going to take a wild guess she doesn't use the Distressing perk in the films?
That's actually an exceptional question Count…
Saw is a rather unique franchise, it does have some Pig jumps scares, but Jigsaw (and later Amanda) are not overpowered monsters hunting people down and killing them. They are actually rather physically weak and frail, and are more about outsmarting and predicting human behaviour.
As such they themselves are rarely on screen, and the focus is more on the traps the victims are placed in, designed to make people face their own selfish actions which are used as the basis for a trial. The general forumula is the trial is often a deadly puzzle that asks them to give up something or making a choice, where embracing the pain and/or personal costs for those selfish deeds gives a chance of survival, and failure to comply results in their death (with character subplots in between).
The films are quite gruesome at times, so depending on how you feel about extreme torture, maiming and gore, you may or may not appreciate it... but the series of films are quite good. They continue to mostly make sense, and they keep the spirit and idea well realised, and are entertaining throughout. I would suggest:
- SAW 1-6
- SAW X
I would avoid these however... they lost the core idea of the franchise and the traps are often ridiculous and make no sense:
- SAW 3D (7)
- Jigsaw
- Spiral: From the Book of SAW
I have a special personal ire for Jigsaw, because that really pushed the limit of how stupid the whole thing can be.
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Regardimg his intimidation... I do firmly believe Myers should not make any sound at all when stunned by a pallet, headon or flashlight save...
His grunt of pain at this point is so iconic to my brain now though, I would insist on keeping it exclusive for Decisive Strike 😁
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@GeneralV said:
Well, my thanks to Puzzled Storage for asking the question. I created a Reddit account earlier today specifically to ask about Skull Merchant, but apparently you cannot type anything in the subreddit if your account isn't older than two weeks, so my question was immediately deleted.
But anyway, I would like to quickly propose a discussion about what is actually written here, because it looks a bit concerning.
It starts out great with "retaining trap playstyle". That's excellent, really. However, the other two I think are a bit scary. "Remove passive lethality" is odd, imho. Because that is kinda the point of a trap killer: the active part of their playstyle is setting traps, the web of traps they create passively acquires results.
Trapper, for instance, doesn't control his traps. He controls their strategic placement, but they automatically trap a survivor if they step on it. So, it seems a bit contradictory to move away from passive threats while retaining trap playstyle… unless they mean like the original design, where the drones applied the exposed but they didn't injure you, then it is okay.
The drone buddy can be bad if it remains the way it was. In the last design preview it was basically a mid-range M2, which I strongly believe Skull Merchant shouldn't have, much like the dashes from both previews. Unless this drone does something else entirely, I am personally not a fan of its inclusion.
It is hard to judge based on a single post and we still don't have all the information but I am worried. Very much so.
Is an interesting set of points to be sure...
- Maintaining trap playstyle
- Removing psssive lethality
- Drone buddy
If I was to have a go at achieving these things, while retaining her identity as the rich, high tech, surveillance and stalker killer...
If her traps are not lethal I wonder if they are just gonna be brought back as stealth drone that apply claw traps on a single scan. No injury or nothing, just the claw trap that tracks survivor position. Then she can use her stealth and her drone buddy to injure a survivor via some kind of skillshot against a locked on survivor with the claw trap...
On an initial set if thoughts, that's the only kind of configuration I can see working to satisfy those parameters 🤔
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@Ikalx said:
Healing is pretty strong right now, but I feel like it's a soft attempt to combat tunnelling etc. If people can heal quickly they should have more of a chance to escape.
That being said, the amount of games I've played where absolutely no one brings a healing perk is astonishing. It's crazy that healing is so buffed and so many survivors aren't using the perks.
I think you're spot on. I'm sure a lot of this rapid self healing and difficulty creating pressure is all spill over from the design switch to dash killers over the past 2 years. Nowadays if a killer doesn't have mobility, they don't sell, and these killers who can move well are always strong.
Since the Wesker-era took over we have more dash killers than ever, and because mobility snowballs pressure so hard, a lot of them keep getting nerfed, such as Chucky, Wesker, Blight, Ghoul, etc.
In the same breathe, non mobile killers have been struggling, snd as such have been getting a lot of add-ons made basekit and otherwise had buffs too. Freddy got more mobility, and we've had buffs to Trapper, Pig, Doctor, Legion, Knight, Nemesis, Myers, Ghost Face etc, etc. We all get little improvements to make these killers better.
Grand, all is well... :
- Dash killers are getting nerfed.
- M1 killers are getting buffed.
However mobility still proves to be king time and time again even with these nerfs/buffs... and so we see a third action being taken...
- Survivors are getting buffed via perks and basekit effects.
Now this makes sense if we look at dash killers and the ever present threat they pose via tunneling and slugging… perks like WGLF, Resurgence, Botany, etc all seem fine when looking here... and a lot of the other perks did definitely need to be buffed for Survivor, because they were weak...
However if we look at M1 killers in the face of all these survivor buffs... we just buffed them to help their pressure... however the survivors get some really strong meta perks and basekit effects now that basically undo their buffs, and in some cases make them even weaker at maintaining pressure than they were before... 😶😶😶
At this point I don't see the problem going away... M2 killers with high mobility is the standard now for new killers... anything that doesn't have that gets dropped like a bad habit... so everything has to be balanced with regards yo this new high mobility landscape... and that means our immobile killers are basically brown bread.
At least Pig is getting mobility buffs... she's been increased while crouching by a whole 10% in 6 months... that's how much mobility is important in this game... this is just modern DBD 😐
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I'm very curious to know if these changes will manage to hit the high tiers, or if they'll remain largely unaffected, the main comcern is, do low tiers eat another shot to the teeth?
Though given the AFC and the anti 3-gen changes, and the anti Go Next and anti perma hide mechanics are as they are, I feel like they'll likely be reasonably well measured and restrained.
I don’t really see much point of getting hyped/panicked until we know exactly what to expect when the changes are announced.
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@ImWinston said:
- For me, Kaneki is fun to play against. Before anyone tells me "killer main!!!!!", I don't own this killer (if anyone wants to give me a gift, I'd be happy🤣), so I'm speaking exclusively from experience surviving against him. My "problems" against him are that if you don't have resources (pallets, windows), you're simply dead. All killers benefit from a lack of resources, but in my opinion, he's the absolute king of these kinds of situations. I also don't understand this hatred against him; for me, Nurse is 100 times worse (in terms of balance). The fact that Nurse is "difficult" to use doesn't make her balanced.
I think a lot of the bad feels and ire towards Ghoul is the several cases of knowing you're dead, but still having to play it out.
At least with Nurse, when she is teleporting after you, there is still a slim hope of dodging it, or her missing. She is more oppressive than the Ghoul, but you can at least TRY and juke her almost anywhere...
Against Ghoul though, every time he comes after you with a vault or a leap cancel, you know you're dead about 2-4 seconds before you actually go down... once he gets into position, you just die, and there is nothing you can do really to avoid it...
I feel like the fact that with Nurse the inevitable down is very short lived makes it much less frustrating, but with Ghoul, you see him wind up and your brain does the same Nurse logic of "... I die here if he doesn't screw up", but when he sticks the landing, you say "yep, I'm just dead", and get to run and just watch over the next few seconds in vain as he slaps you down.
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Mad props dude!
Though one has to wonder... after playing Freddy while in his trash state for so long... then now switching to Skull Merchant in her trash state... I'm not sure, but there seems to be elements of a potential abusive relationship here between you and DBD... blink twice if you're not OK General! 🤣
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@KingOfDoom55 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3967899#Comment_3967899
Fair enough, never thought of it this way tbh, but I still think the hit boxes should be fixed bc it is somewhat an issue still
100% with you there 😁😁😁
Sometimes those collisions are absurd... both for hits and misses 😶
Not sure it's lag or not though... probably need some real Wesker experts to wade in.
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@UnicornMedal said:
There need to be more kickbacks for Survivors that lose autonomy during the trial. Being on the receiving end of camping/tunneling/slugging is no fun and almost every asymm I've seen handles this better than DBD.
Slugging is absolutely on the rise lately and many trials feel like you're just waiting to surrender. It doesn't necessarily have to be faster healing, but if there was more we could do for ourselves while downed that doesn't rely on perks or is so weak/convoluted that it's not worth using, it would inspire more hope during the trial and cause players to think twice about throwing in the towel.
Not gonna lie... Tenacity is my favourite perk in the game for this very reason... you move much faster and can frequently be surprisingly clutch .
I love the options/agency it gives me while slugged... and it helps me so often in lots of quirky scenarios, I'm starting to think the perk is heavily underrated.
- It can make picking up awkward for killers, as they try to face walls to avoid beams, you can waste 2 or 3 extra seconds just by crawling out from under their feet with Tenacity, and often when you do, you force them to look around more to avoid beams, and can waste 5-6s or more... which can means the difference between a gen pop and a pain res.
- Any time you are downed, if the killer has to push another survivor away, or simply there happens to be a gen or pallet nearby they want to kick, they can't be gone more than maybe 10 seconds without a very real chance of losing you... I've given a surprising number of killers the slip with Tenacity.
- You can move and recover at the same time, which I'm beginning to think is better than Unbreakable tbh vs. a slugging killer. You can actually move apart from teh slug location to somewhere safer for you and your team, while also losing no time on recovery.
- Tenacity ALWAYS works and the killer kinda has to deal with you; if ignored, you become a pain for the killer... you are quiet, hard to see and move at respectable speed... whereas Unbreakable you're largely stuck in place and only works once and ONLY if the killer leaves you slugged...
- You can also take Plot Twist for a perk that effectively let's you heal on the move... and it even works as a budget Unbreakable that can force the killer to pick up in certain hatch scenarios.
Every now and again I take it off,and every time I do, I regret it... the more I play with it, the more Tenacity is becoming a staple of my build... 😶
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@KingOfDoom55 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3967466#Comment_3967466
Wesker main problem is that he can still sometimes grab people when dashing from other side of pallets when they get dropped or when survivors are not near the dash or in other words, just out of reach but still gets grabbed somehow, and I feel like his infection is pretty underwhelming for the amount of time to wait for someone to fully get infected just for 4% hindered, bc survivors, like, 80% of total matches I've played & witnessed as wesker & survivor, people barely get fully infected, bc they get rid of it before hand or doesn't seem to care enough to get rid of it, bc other than insta carry, there's really no benefit for it, maybe a slight buff to the infection rate process or make the infection do something else could make it better & more needed tk get rid of it as a survivor or hope that survivors get fully infected for the Killer, bc it gets reduced to 1% when hooked, but yeah I agree, he's mostly balanced but his passive infection is not... worth the trouble at all, and could use a very slight buff or perhaps a different use instead, but the hit boxes still need a fix/reduce, from both a killer who uses wesker & a Survivor who went against wesker many times
The 1% off hook change was a good change, because the problem you had before was, Wesker players could (and would) just return to hook every time and tunnel. If the Wesker was not very good and the survivor was able to run them for any decent length of time, their infection would build and then hit them with the 8% hindered, basically ensuring Wesker could catch them pretty much for free. This made it so the pressure Wesker could maintain was boring and unfair... because getting a heal off and removing the infection were things you often just could not do fast enough to prevent a damned if you do, damned if your don't situation for survivors.
I will admit, I didnt understand why his hinder was reduced from 8% to 4%. 8% seems a reasonable deterrent to not removing infection, especially gievn it takes longer off hook... that time difference kinda gives credence to it being the stronger 8% if survivors ignore it. The nerf to his tunneling capabilities (via waiting out infection) was already a good change that did the job it needed to... the additional hindered nerf wasn't really necessary.
However, in the same breathe, a good Wesker never has to rely on the Hindered anyway. Survivors still have to remove the infection because the threat of it is more the instant pick up instead of the slow, so it does mostly work the same as the passive slowdown/info tool it did before... just not the giga tunnel tool it used to be.
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@badgerman97 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3967413#Comment_3967413
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/OXRRDMFL8RH1/3788.jpg
Do elaborate, you have my attention
Gonna be speed squatting mate, crouching as fast as survivors... gonna have thighs tough enough to crack walnuts xD
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I think a key part of defining a change for a character is to first decide exactly what is wrong with that character.
There are multiple ways you could Buff/Nerf many characters, but what is more important really is defining the problem and thus what the actual goal of any changes would be.
For example to pick Wesker out of your list, what problem with Wesker are we trying to fix? Is it that he's buggy? In which case, yes absolutely his bugs should be fixed... however if he needs an actual.buff/nerf, what about his design exactly needs to be fixed? It matters because from my perspective, design wise Wesker is fine. Decent strength at all levels of play, relatively easy to understand and get into but a high skill ceiling to master.
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It would make the Jewellery add-ons much better to be fair.
Jewellery Box I think makes Michael just short of 4m/s when stalking and no one is in sight. He'd be like a tall Pig. 😅
No sure how needed ofc, since 16m TR is pretty small... how much it'd make a difference at base is questionable... but food for thought.
Edit: Did the maths again, EW2 with just Jewellery Box is 3.588m/s. EW2 with Jewellery Box and Jewellery is 4.14m/s…
So that would be an interesting set of add-on options for Stealth Myers.
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@Emeal said:
The Hag welcomes her to the Liver Enjoyers Club.
Underrated comment 🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Mind you... Pig getting those Chun Li thighs in 9.1.0 😶
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@CountOfTheFog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3966826#Comment_3966826
I don't know what that is, but I was Morid after she hit me with NOED 💀
Ruleset Number 2 is the one that blocks Jigsaw box auras until your trap is active. Common combo with the Video Tape Iri.
Not the NOED 😱
Someone does not believe in themselves 😏
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Riffing off top of my head, but...
I wonder if Tombstone Piece being reworked to only allow you to Tombstone a survivor with less than 10% remaining (2 stalk points) would work.
This is actually quite tricky to do. If you assume Myers stalks 1 survivor only to tombstone ASAP:
- There are 20.1 stalk points per survivor.
- Myers takes 3 stalk points to get out of EW1 (17.1 left)
- To get to EW3 takes another 20 stalk points.
- After losing EW3 Myers has to stalk 5 points. If he tombstones he has to make an additional 5 stalks.
Hopefully this illustrates the problem... the numbers make to actually stalk someone below 10% AND get EW3 is actually quite tricky... especially if survivors identify the Piece and jump in a locker so it screws with Mike's timings.
I initially suggested fully stalked... but when you think about it, this is basically impossible to fully stalk a survivor AND get EW3... so this doesn't make sense....
This might be a decent compromise for Tombstone Pieces power.
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Just a boost, to hopefully get a little more traction prior to the release 😏
No down votes thus far... so seems promising... but don't expect that to remain unopposed xD
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The problem with the "Kaneki is an m1 killer" argument, is that if the Kaneki is good, that is only true at trash loops... which bear in mind, you're automatically injured.
What makes strong loops strong is the fact that walking around them takes time. Killers are normally forced to break these tiles and taking the time to break allows the survivor to leave to the next tile. If Kaneki does this then Kaneki isn't that hard to deal with at all...
A good Kaneki however, won't break the tile, as Kaneki can grab you over a loop with his enraged leaps. It is not hard to hit at all, because a good Ghoul will not let you leave the tile and will instead keep zoning you until he can grab you and vault. When he does, he heavily hinders you for a moment while he in turn also has the fastest recovering vault in the game, beating both Legion and Wesker...
What this means is if you're at any decent length tile, he can just grab you over the tile and gets a free m1, so traditionally strong tiles for survivors become weak tiles... no "m1 killer" can subvert strong tiles in this way.
The only place his vault isn't a problem is at already weak, crappy tiles... which he can just keep 50/50 mind gaming until you lose... you still can't leave tile cause he just catches you... and nobody can win 50/50s forever, and since you're auto injured, our "m1 killer" is basically playing like you're perma-exposed...
So basically playing against Ghoul tends to feel monstrously unfair. The only place you can fight back is at crap tiles, that you will eventually lose anyway against even the weakest of M1 killers. It just takes one decent fake from the Ghoul and that's it.
His nerfs at least make it so that trash Ghouls get run over... we don't have a Skull Merchant situation when a terrible player still often runs over much stronger players for free...
However a good Ghoul who is accurate and really knows what he's doing, it's like playing against Nurse... there isn't a lot you can realistically do, especially when he takes perks to make loops even less safe like Blood Favour and Bamboozle.
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@YuffieGreatestWaifu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965974#Comment_3965974
No one runs object because Stealth killers get all the benefits none of the drawbacks
Off the record is the best
Distortion requires chases to get charges.
Bloodamber is way worse and I dont see any Swfs run a key and Amber or any key whatsoever so this does make it better.What do you mean Distortion needs charges?
You literally use the Blood Amber key for an advantage in chase... Distortion charges by being in chase, and Distortion barely takes any time to charge up at all.... the benefit of Distortion here is obvious... probably the strongest combo there is with modern Blood Amber.
OOO is fine man, I run it with OTR to prevent being tunneled, but if you play with it and have nerves og steel, it's often more of a benefit than a detriment. The only stealth killer it really hurts you against is Wraith, everyone else like Pig, Myers, Ghost Face, it doesn't really make a difference, and the tracking and stats boosts otherwise are pretty nice. Quite often you'll see the killer, and they aren't even looking your direction. It's a shame it doesn't work with Eyes of Belmont though 😢
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965974#Comment_3965974
New Blood Amber should only reveal the killer’s aura of the survivor’s aura is revealed to the killer, just like Object Of Obsession.
This add-on is clearly supposed to have a downside, and survivors shouldn’t be allowed to bypass this downside.I mean sure... but if you're gonna have that downside, the Blood Amber needs to be buffed considerably elsewhere, because key should be much stronger for this purpose, but with that downside, then the Map Iri is just objectively better.
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@Dadeordye said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959807#Comment_3959807
Hey.
Thanks for replying. 😁
The best use for the key was to see the killer's aura using the Amber add-on, but now this is basically ruined. Now you can only see it for 2s PER CHARGE and the killer ALSO sees you. My friend farmed more than 700 keys with the sole purpose of making Skeleton Keys + Amber his, let's say, default item in his most used builds and now this combo became basically useless.
With the current patch we can see the killer's aura for a max of 22,5 seconds with the Skeleton Key + Amber + Beads, we can even use it for like half a second if we are fast on our fingers to deactivate it fast enough (making the duration go as far as 45s) AND the killer CAN'T see your aura.
Skeleton Keys were the highest rarity and had 30s of use. It was way more than the other two keys and, of course, took two pallet stuns per trial to get one using Exultation.
With the purposed changes currently on PTB keys became borderline useless aside some meme builds that people will tire off pretty fast.
If you want to see survs auras you just need to use one of the retired add-ons for example.
Nobody is bringing it just to unlock chests faster or the other functionalities you guys added.Not sure this is true.
Skeleton Key is 4s with Blood Amber, extended to 6s with Braided Bauble. I also wonder if it works with Eyes of Belmont...
The killer seeing your aura is also not necessarily a downside, there are perks that nullify the effect, and some that outright benefit from it such as: -
- Object of Obsession let's you trigger a boost to actions when you want it.
- Off the Record let's you get a free aura read on the killer any time for 90s, so you know which way to run.
- Sole Survivor can block an aura read while aura reading the killer, maybe even use it to find hatch at the moment the killer closes it.
- Distortion actually becomes pretty awesome with this change, with an on demand scratch marks hide...
The key changes look fine to me overall, and Blood Amber certainly isn't dead.
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@Hex_Leons_frags said:
With the que times for killer ive unfortunately become a survivor main.
I feel this...
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@BlackJimmy88 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965329#Comment_3965329
Wasn’t the hit medkit efficiency scrapped in the last patch?
The Botany 20% penalty was scrapped yes, but the inherant 33% medkit penalty is still there.
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Botany counts for all healing, self and altruistic, with and without medkits.
Self Care and Botany are multiplicative, and in DBD, bonus are all applied before penalties are applied.
The full calculation for Botany and Self Care is:
- 16 charges to heal, which is normally at 1 charge per second. 16c ÷ 1c/s = 16s.
- Botany applies +50%, which now becomes 1.5 c/s. 16c ÷ 1.5c/s = 10.67s.
- Self Care reduces Self Healing to 35%, which becomes 1.5 × 0.35 = 0.525c/s. 16c ÷ 0.525c/s = 30.48s.
A medkit is also affected by Botany, but has 33% less self heal efficiency and 33% less healing speed. So for medkits the calculations are:
- 16 charges to heal, medkits consume 1 medkit charge (mc) for every 0.6667 of charges healed on the survivor (sc) (ratio of 0.67:1). 16sc ÷ 0.6667 = 24mc.
- Charges healed on the survivor remains the same though. 16 survivor charges to heal, which is normally at 1 charge per second. 16c ÷ 1c/s = 16s.
- Botany applies +50%, which now becomes 1.5 c/s. 16c ÷ 1.5c/s = 10.67s.
- Medkits reduce Self Healing to 66.67%, which becomes 1.5 × 0.6667 = 1c/s. 16c ÷ 1c/s = 16s.
You can follow the same process for anything, e.g Strength in Shadows is at 70%, so SiS with BK = 16 ÷ (1.5 × 0.7) = 15.24s.
For healing, just do c ÷ c/s = s.
Any other thoughts on Botany UndeddJester?
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@mecca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963978#Comment_3963978
You don't regard the survivor experience at all if you want old Skull Merchant back. It is really unanimous in the community that everyone hates her except people that loves to 3 gen.
Which version of Skull Merchant are you talking about dude? I believe this is just a miscommunication because the General is referring to Skull Merchant 2.0 with the scan lines. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you've misunderstood him to mean original Skull Merchant
Now original Skull Merchant certainly was a 3-gen machine, and she had a whole different set of issues to Skull Merchant 2.0... however the reworked Skull Merchant simply could not do what OG Skull Merchant could, 2.0 was definitely no better at 3 genning than any other killer; I'd argue wasn't even in the top 10 3-gen killers.
Despite this a lot of people kept up that narrative, and I'm not accusing you of doing the same, but this has always been the problem when discussing Skull Merchant, she's the boogeyman of DBD... people say they hate Skull Merchant for this reason or that reason, but they're often talking about something that doesn't actually exist...
This is why SM defenders push back as hard as they do... because even now against 3.0 Skull Merchant, normally respectable players with a lot of clout try to say she is obnoxious to face at loops and her poop a drone playstyle is so oppressive and boring to face... when in reality her power literally does next to nothing... all she is now is a 4.6 Undetectable killer... that is it.
The lies around Skull Merchant make discussions around her so unnecessarily difficult and way too many people are stuck on a narrative that is simply just not true 90% of the time... and in her current state it's more important than ever that people are honest about her... because a killer in this state is NOT OK... no matter who it is.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964877#Comment_3964877
No one, not even SM mains would disagree that her skill floor was insanely low and she needed to be made more difficult to play at the basic levels
Honestly, my friend, I would disagree, yes.
It isn't really a concern to me how much skill a character takes. What matters is whether or not they provide an enjoyable experience for both sides, and that doesn't always mean skill.
Nurse takes skill to learn, and once you master her survivors have zero they can do against her. By comparison Myers has a straightforward power, and yet he is one of my favorite characters to go against.
Skull Merchant 2.0 didn't have to be made more difficult. She didn't have to be made, well, anything. A point can be made about a possible removal of Hindered, which seemed to be the main source of frustration, but that is as far as changes should go, imho.
Fair enough my man, I know you're a fan of her 2.0...
However if you'll indulge me a second... not that I'm trying to convince you, but I do think I can make a pretty good case for these changes that help Skull Merchant overall... and feed a little more into Skull Merchants decision making... 😁
Single Scan Line
The first problem I had with her kit personally as a SM player, was I noticed while playing her that I almost never used the switch drone rotation ability on her... I genuinely almost forgot it was part of her kit, because honestly 99% of the time you didn't need it.
Just walking after survivors with both beams running was plenty good to beat most survivors at loops... and when I started to think of ways to make it so that using the rotation direction change was a meaningful part of her kit (cause paying attention to the position of your drone scan lines feels like that should be a major point of SM), I hit a conundrum... if you make the scan lines faster, that means the survivor has to crouch much more often and easily gets overwhelmed... if you make the scan lines slower, that means the survivor has to stay crouched for longer so SM closes more distance. There was essentially nothing you could do to refine and tweak her rotation to use it as part of balancing her, because whichever way you went, you maintained the same level of difficulty for the survivor...
So I want the single scan line change for scout drones (and only scout drones), just so it can be fine tuned and used in her balance discussions.
Haste removal
The issue I have with the haste on Skull Merchant was it made looping as her and against her quite inconsistent, and the worst part is the numbers are subtle. Your haste bounces around based on how many survivors are scanned, and judging it as a survivor especially becomes a similar frustration to how MFT was on killer, a lot of the time it isn't even your fault that the haste is triggered, someone gets scanned across map, and your chase suffers for it, and as Skull Merchant you often can't plan for it... it just happens randomly.
I further dislike it because to my mind, haste is such a lazy way of making something viable... you can make anything viable by adding haste... If her haste must be a thing, I'd prefer something much more obvious/impactful but not impacting chase, have it lean more into the unique traits of Skull Merchant.
For example: What if we give her say 10% haste when a survivor is scanned/claw trapped but ONLY applies when she is not in chase? This feeds into her catching a survivor on her radar, she might decide to drop chase and instead go for the scanned survivor using her undetctable and radar to score a cheeky hit... she's actually making decisions and putting fear into survivors off of her unique traits/power. (As opposed to discount PWYF). It also makes holding W to leave tile less effective if she has a scan on you, because she can stick on you, so playing against her now weaker drones at tiles is in a survivors better interest, so we're actually playing around loops and scan lines more often, so SM has a built in discouragement for disengaging with her power at loops.
Broken Removal
I like this change because again it feeds into the unique traits of Skull Merchant. She knows where you are via her radar if you have a claw trap... if you're broken, you just do a gen and run if she turns up... there isn't much else you can do.
If she doesn't have Broken however... do you try to recover/heal against her? Or do you stay Injured? Survivors are now having to choices to make and must weigh up risk vs. Skull Merchant knowing she can see where they are, that may even be more costly than just staying injured and doinga gen. Healing becomes viable against her, but in turn things like Mangled/Haemorrhage become good for SM... her being able to track movement means something and creates more paranoia trying to get away with a heal vs. just go to gen and look out as per usual.
Maybe it won't convince you, but these things make her more interesting for me... and with tasteful.compensation buffs, she starts to get pretty cool to my mind 😁
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
I'm still excited for her rework, it sounds exciting to play against.
It had potential, but there were glaring problems...
Chief amoung them being if she doesn't hit a drone first, she doesn't have a power, as the EMP dart did nothing unless a survivor is claw trapped... and if she does hit a drone, unless she is there to EMP them before its removed, she also doesn't have a power, as drones cannot down either and claw traps can be removed.
So she basically is an M1 killer with a two part power, both of which basically did nothing without the other.
Think Houndmaster/Twins, but you have to set up like Trapper/Hag first to get a scan, where a scan will let you use Snug/Victor, but they are stationary so with a single shot, that you have to push survivors in range of them for your one and only try to convert it, all on a much longer cooldown/reset. If you miss, you lose phat distance, if you hit you then have to walk after a Survivor holding W away for phat distance after you switch back, to then have a shot with a Huntress hatchet, that you can't leave chase from, because if you let the survivor remove the trap, you lose your hatchet.
There is just no reason to play this killer over any other killer, since on all the others, traps are mostly autonomous, and the hatchet's threat is immediate; as opposed to having set a drone, chase a survivor into it, swap to drone and hit, walk them down, do a little rain dance, pay your taxes, sacrifice a small goat to the God Imhotep, and finally get to access to something remotely lethal for your power.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
Sad thing is her second version was quite easy to fix in my opinion.
Funny thing is survivors give up against her even now, when she basically has no power except undetectable.
Agreed. No one, not even SM mains would disagree that her skill floor was insanely low and she needed to be made more difficult to play at the basic levels...
However where a lot of players get it wrong is they believe she had no skill expression either... SM definitely had skillful things she could do, just her lazy passive way of playing was too strong, and that's all that needed nerfing.
Skull Merchant 2.0 with:
- Single scan line on scouting drones.
- Removal of haste on scans/claw traps.
- Removal of broken on claw trap.
- Switch drone deployment to the end of the deploy animation
- Drones deploy in scouting mode while in chase.
This set of nerfs would have been more than enough to stop the "poop a drone and passively walk after survivor" gameplay, and level out her low-mid MMR kill rate, as they would actually have to learn to time drone placements and use her radar properly to be effective. High skill SMs would have still been able to do their high skill things, but it would have hit the lowbies who didn't use her power at all.
We could then look at meaningfully buffing her for the players that actually played SM with skill... but where she is now, she's just in limbo.
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A lot of those are interesting, and options are always cool, and I like that a lot of these lean into the newer mechanics.
I'm not too sure about Blood Amber though... the difference between this and current is that only you get the aura read rather than both killer and survivor... however with the current Blood Amber, I'm seeing potential for some really quirky and tricky effects off the fact the killer sees your Aura too and its global...
- Object of Obsession let's you trigger a boost to actions when you want it.
- Off the Record let's you get a free aura read on the killer any time for 90s, so you know which way to run.
- Sole Survivor can block an aura read while aura reading the killer, maybe even use it to find hatch at the moment the killer closes it.
- Distortion actually becomes pretty awesome with this change, with an on demand scratch marks hide...
I'm not on the PTB, so I can't try these, but these effects look pretty good to me... 🤔
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964812#Comment_3964812
Tell me about it.
Skull Merchant post can gain some traction, but someone like Hag? None.
I hate it when i make a post and no one responds, but that's probably universal.
Indeed, Skully has the slight benefit of:
😏😏😏
Though hopefully we hear more about her rework soon... cause it definitely feels like momentum has slowed on that front... and in case of Hag amd Twins... there is no momentum to begin with...
Maybe we can talk Hens or someone into trying out the old Hag Weave Attunement and Franklin's Build with Rusty Shackles and the Iri... to get murmurs going again about her 😅
I'm pretty sure she can still do it, even with the Franklin's Nerf... but Rusty Shackles sadly doesn't demonstrate the problem 🫠
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@SoGo said:
I'm glad someone else also wants Hag to be improved!
Those changes could work pretty well.
Arigato gozeimasu that man!
Killers like Hag, Twins, Skull Merchant, etc often get swept away in the noise, and its hard to get any discussion going for them... Not helped of course by the PTB being the talk of the town right now....
However it never seems to be a good time to bring them up in to the ring really, so we can but try. 😅
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#PlzHelpHag
Yas this is a shameless bump... but if nothing else, something needs to change with the S tech...
Everything else would be nice for Hag to keep up with the latest changes to the game... However a single S Tech player can completely destroy your web and basically ruin your game... it's kinda no wonder so many Hags fall back to hook trapping really...
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I would recommend my favourite perk Tenacity.
Sounds like this would help you a lot more than Soul Guard in this situation.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/451285/a-hag-deep-dive-and-update-discussion
The very few Hags I go against usually aren't difficult to deal with, even before being able to wipe the traps and no matter her add-ons in play. Her rarity makes her a noob stomper, like all less seen killers that have lots in there kits for survs to deal with.
However the reason I do not play her myself (and likely why most others don't either) is because of playing DBD with the controller. Those who play her with M&K universally rebind her attack to the mouse scroll wheel, to instantly swing as you teleport.
But the input delay using a controller prevents this, as each and every action with the controller has something like a third to half a second delay. You teleport, swing, miss, and the surv gains decent distance during recovery with a slower moving killer.
The answer to this is more robust options for the controller in DBD, dealing with dead zones in the sticks, response curves, etc. Instead, sometime this year the consoles are getting M&K support, which tells me there will be no changes to controllers coming ever. I do not believe many will stop using the controller, and with more than 70% of the global playerbase on the consoles Hag will remain seldom used and forgotten. Which means none of your proposed changes will matter then.
Some good arguments I don't disagree with there, I always support console/controller improvements.
However as a console Hag/player myself, it's rare a survivor reacts fast enough to effectively get out of range of my swing when playing at tiles as I tend to trap in not immediately obvious locations. Ofc it is obviously impossible in animation lock traps. To be fair for console in general, you often don't want to swing immediately on all killers due to spin techs and not being able to turn fast enough, so this is something you often have to account for regardless on controller/console.
Usually my decision to swing immediately is tied to how ready I was for/fast I reacted to the trap, and/or if I have Coup or Unrelenting equipped.
Vast majority of occassions I've really struggled as Hag have been as a result of someone using S tech, because that player can not only make hitting them a pain, but they can constantly disrupt your web with impunity, and shut it down for all survivors as well.
Once that is gone, Hag can always be number tweaked/improved for console later... bur her fundamental has issues that need to be addressed before getting into such details.
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To be fair, a lot of the community doesn't understand macro play either...
It is the hardest skill to develop in the game (I'm certainly not good at it myself, but I'm trying), but its why some players just resort to hard tunneling all the time, so they don't have to engage with/learn macro play at all.
It's also why the most popular killers (and thus why most modern killers) are all killers with insane map mobility that almost never have to really check the macro game to be effective... why bother thinking about macro timings when your killer is lethal enough to down in 30s flat between hooks with consistency, and if all else fails you can always just run back to hook at any time to maintain pressure?
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@CoolerBleend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963245#Comment_3963245
Just because the gameplay is thematic doesn't make it the most unengaging way to play the game. You either get instakilled or be forced to give hook states to not die. It's not fun, you don't get to chase whatsoever cuz the Michael won't attempt to attack at all and it's just uninteractive
@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963485#Comment_3963485
2 words
Haste perks.
If Myers has pwyf you literally cannot loop him normally and have to let him win chases for free. PWYF is balanced by it decreasing when you swing and tombstone/locker grabs ignore this.
Again my point never was that good survivors can't beat Tombstone, my point is it's a completely busted addon that makes playing against Myers a chore because any time I face one there's always a good chance it's Tombstone piece since why wouldn't you run it when it can single handedly win you games.
I highly doubt any survivor will say they enjoy being taken out of the game early by a single purple addon
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963538#Comment_3963538
This just reinforces my pov, you and your team had to play worse on purpose just in case the Killer had these addons and they didn't lol.
I mean fair enough, I'm not saying you're wrong in your assessment of the ability... but what I have been continuously saying is you cannot tell people what they can and can't find fun. Fun is subjective, and all I stated at the start was that while I do acknowledge it can be unfun in certain scenarios, and unfair to players unaware of the threat, it can also be quite terrifying, exciting and fun as well.
I've tried to avoid using anecdotal evidence, but I for one have found many games against Tombstone Myers highly engaging, and have some genuinely terrifying moments and genuinely hilarious moments as a result of playing against tombstone… one such example involved a Myers steaming around the corner of Shack while in EW3 with Undetectable, and me literally panicking as I barely made it to shack pallet to save my life, which I only managed cause I literally saw a shadow go past a tiny gap in the wood by shack door.
I've also had games where I was genuinely impressed by a Tombstone, because I played against a Myers who stalked extremely well, fast enough for me to not be sure if he had it or not, and him not Tombstoning anyone for several hooks... after so many hooks I dropped by guard and went for a body block to save a Death Hook teammate... only to eat a Mori instead... and I genuinely burst out laughing.
It's perfectly fine for you to not like Tombstone... but you or I don't get to tell people what they find fun. I can admit sometimes Tombstone Myers is sometimes very frustrating and boring... but there are other times I've had very fun, exciting and memorable moments against him that I wouldn't have had if Tombstone didn't exist.
So as I said originally... I'm on the fence with Tombstone.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963245#Comment_3963245
"Counterplay in the form of lockers"
You mean "Let the killer win the chase for free or risk dying instead."
That's not good game design nor balanced in the slightest. Especially when you consider what perks Myers is likely running - Tombstone piece can be ran with 4 slowdowns easily which means even if you do the """counterplay""" congrats you just fed him a free pain res dms grim embrace eruption or whatever
You don't let the killer win the chase for free though... you don't just hop in a locker and let him grab you. You use the locker when you know you're caught, and won't make it to another loop/tile... Mikey is an instant down killer, so if you're caught, you're caught, you only locker hop to ensure he can't Mori you.
I would argue that in DBD, no matter the killer, we all know at some point you as survivor are going to get caught, and the chase ends, this is a fundamental truth of DBD. You simply can't loop the killer forever, because the game would fundamentally break if you could. Thus, your hook stages are resources to be used as the survivor team, such as if three players are on death hook and there is one with no hooks, the one cannot stay hiding and only working on safe generators... that player has to work on valuable objectives and draw killer attention any way they can.
In Myers case, rhe locker hop is that last step to use when you've run out of all other options. By successfully looping the killer as long as possible before you hop in the locker, you have wasted all of Mikey's time stalking, all of his time on his EW3 trying to mori you, and if you did enough, you've also made him have to start a new round of stalking, wasting more time.
I'm not gonna claim it's perfect design or anything, but teams of decent survivors don't just roll over and die against Tombstone, there are things you can do against him, and Myers has to win m1 gameplay without a lunge to actually Mori you.
He is a pretty popular killer...there are a lot of survivors who do enjoy playing against him... I'd at least argue there are more players who enjoy facing Myers than there are quite a number of killers.... even when you consider Tombstone... so take from that what you will.
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@CoolerBleend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962877#Comment_3962877
There's nothing fun about being stared at for 3 minutes with no chases and then having to 3v1 cuz someone got """outplayed""" by tombstone
Fun is subjective first and foremost.
My case for why Tombstone can be quite fun and engaging is:
- To start charging Tombstone Mikey has to get out of t1, which gives an audio cue to the whole team, so its not like Survivors aren't made aware Myers is in play.
- The mere existence of Tombstone means you need to pay careful attention and fear Myers stalking you, whether he actually has it or not. This makes Myers inherently intimidating, even if he isn't a particularly strong killer, which is great for the horror theme.
- A Myers using Tombstone has a long charge time, and if EW3 hasn't popped for a long time, that is quite scary once you start to suspect it, cause you don't know when it will pop.
- You have counterplay in the form of lockers and ofc the fact Myers is still an m1 killer at the end of the day, who must stand next to you actually mori you, so while very dangerous, standard gameplay mechanics counter him.
If your teammate feed Myers it can be unfun, but Myers is the best thematically realised killer in the game, and he is actually quite popular for both sides, and has been for years, despite not being very strong.
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I'm kinda on the fence about Tombstone tbh, because in a lot of ways Tombstone can be pretty unfair to the uninitiated; even as a veteran, there are those odd moments where you just mess up/have to bite the bullet and get caught with a Tombstone...
However everyone with any time in DBD knows Mikey COULD have it, and especially if you see him taking a long time to stalk, you know not to screw around with it, and that makes Mikey quite fun, scary and paranoia inducing in of itself.
It's bit like the killer side equivalent of Decisive Strike... they might not have Tombstone at all… but you get certain smells to indicate that they might have it... and that's pretty fun.
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Ahahahahaha, while I don't think it'd work with the existing DBD formula... I actually love the idea of becoming a mini killer and going after survivors fter you die...
There would be a few times I would absolutely go hard on my former teammates... such as when I get unhooked 10 seconds after being hooked with the killer literally still sniffing my hair, or when survivors bring the killer to my safe gen off in Narnia when I'm the only player on death hook, or anyone runs to me plot twisting and draws a nice line of scratch marks for the killer to find me...
Sandbagging Thirst Sables days are numbered 😈😈😈😈