UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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@badgerman97 said:
Experimenting with other killers to give Mandy a rest and to spare me the recent embarrassments of 3-4 escapes at Prestige 4.
Springtrap- Solid killer with good stats and map management. Very fun to play, but currently makes you feel like you're on a wall of Buzz Lightyears. Sniped and downed a teabagger; made me smile.
Plague- Man, puking on people sure is fun. Absolutely got cooked first game, board wiped the second.
Knight- Love dark fantasy. Complex af at first, but I got a hang of it after four escapes first round.
Chucky- 3rd Person killer is weird, but it works. A lot like our Piglet 🐽 with his stealth attack. Hard to control, but fried a lobby first game and made a Sable rage. This will likely never happen again.
Playing Pig has really taught me how to try and make a lot of a little, and it does translate into some other killers. Amanda will always be on top, though 👑🐷🔪
I've always believed that Our Lady is one of the best killers to learn the fundamentals of DBD on.
She relies quite heavily on sound M1 knowledge, but her RBT slowdown used at a basic level buys you the time you need to really practice your m1 gameplay.
Never be embarrassed at 3e or 4e games. Pig is a labour of love, canonically you're merely giving survivors a perceived chance to save themselves... rather than trying to kill them as fast as possible... if your kill everyone, who is gonna share the tales? 😏
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@Orthane said:
As someone who has mained her since she released, that honestly sounds even weaker than she is right now lol. So many people don't understand that Skull Merchant has to have that Haste, she has no way to down you outside of M1, Trapper can with his traps, Wraith has invis and mobility, Hag has mobility and cutting off loops, Freddy has always had his snares on demand to help him catch up and now also has his pallets, Clown has his bottles on demand etc.
2s to set up a Drone is just…. awful like unless she gets a way to down people without M1 that would actually make her unplayable unless you also remove the ability to hack them which would feel terrible ont he Survivor side. Removing undetectable would make her feel a lot worse, it's an invaluable tool for mind games and getting closer to people in gens as an M1 killer. Removing Broken when Claw Trapped is whatever because Claw Traps should not be your focus, people who focus on getting Survivors Claw Trapped are often wasting their time. It's nice to get people trapped yeah, but if you're hard focusing on it you're often extending your chase, not shortening it, especially with how easy it is to counter rotate spams at loops. Stealth Drones were kinda unhealthy imo, it never feels good to get randomly hit with something you couldn't even see. Her TR was already reduced to 24M a little while back.
@Ohyakno said:
Isn't this literally just worse trapper?
Thanks for the thoughts gents!
Maybe she would be on the weaker side of the roster, but that was always gonna happen because she had an above average killrate at mid to low MMR due in her 2.0 version. She had a similar problem to Legion and Pig, mechanically easy to play with a limited strength power, so thus struggles at high MMR, roflstomps low MMR.
The reason why her killrate was so high at lower levels was that was she could just put down a drone at any tile and just walk after survivors. There was no need to use her direction switch at all, no need to mind game, because the 2 beams always gave her enough slow down at loops to get hits from survivors trying to dodge it, or she got Haste if they didn't.
Her haste and lack of need to use her actual power, combined with the fact she could throw it up at any tile without slowing down whatsoever was the core issue of her design, she was rewarded for just walking you down. If she's still at 4.6 at all tiles, she still has to mind game, whether that's for hits or scans, she is forced to actually use her kit, rather it being a passive tile shutdown.
Admittedly this thread is a half answer on my part... which I didn't make clear... so my apologies gents... I would consider a number of other changes to her kit to strengthen her, but truthfully I wanted to address her core design contradictions from 2.0 and give a consistent and functional base to build upon, rather than get bogged down pushing a completely finished idea with controversies coming then on how I'd buff her.
My main thoughts now were:
- Her haste made looping against her inconsistent and typically unearned/random based on who walked into a scan line anywhere on the map. It could be brute forced by Skull Merchant for no skill... with similar issues to MFT.
- Her ability to put a drone down any time she pleases with 2 scan lines that overwhelm the survivor just by passively existing with no interaction from Skull Merchant is a problem. She should have to actually think about her drone placement and use her direction switch to get value.
- Stealth drones should act as a trap lying in wait as part of her Web, and shouldn't be advertising themselves. Similar to Hag and Trapper, you should be keeping a watch out for drones. This is a natural deterent to holding W from tile to tile, as leaving into the unknown greatly increases your chance of running into a stealth drone given their much larger reach than Trapper of Hag traps. It also gives a macro element because tracking scans allows you to identify survivors on 2/3 scans, and know they have to proceed with great caution for unhooks, etc.
- Undetectable doesn't make sense how it triggered with the rest of these changes, and with the radar therr is no room for Undetectable to fit in the kit... hence the TR drop. This combined with Claw traps/scans now applying Oblivious, but no longer broken, a Survivor has paranoia of if she's still pursuing them (she always knows where they are remember) and if they can stop to mend/heal.
- The Oblivious changes are further pronounced by her out of chase movement speed buff, where she can swing around high tiles from unexpected routes to close distance quickly before the survivor notices her coming. Think Legion Feral Frenzy without a Terror Radius or HUD indication she's coming.
There are a number of buffs I would consider here, but often people talk about the buffs they would give instead rather than the overall proposed package. My bad for not making it clear I'd consider subsequent buffs, but I hope that gives a little better context/food for thought.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
Intentionally bodyblocking should be added to the list of conspicuous actions, that deactivate anti-tunnel perks.
The biggest issue with anti-tunnel perks, are survivors that weaponize them against killers that were trying to chase someone else.
Not that I disagree that's a problem, but how do you distinguish a body block vs. the killer walking/moving into a survivor while another Survivor is in range to disable their anti tunnel perks?
Notably Nurse, Ghoul, Blight, Spirit, Houndmaster, Wraith, Legion.
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I honestly don't have a clue...
The issue I see with tunneling, is strong and mobile killers can do it with impunity, whereas as weaker killers get hurt quite substantially by numerous survivor perks that can really punish them hard in the game currently... on a weaker killer, tunneling a player is a coin flip that can so easily cost you the game... but on a strong killer it is pretty much inevitable the survivor dies.
I can't see a change they can make that stops tunneling from being effective for top tiers, that isn't busted against low tiers... even the no collision body block suggestion hits this problem... because Nurse or Blight don't care if they can't body block/try to cut you off with this change, nor do they care if survivors can try to body block for a teammate, even with OTR or DS... but Ghost Face and Trapper absolutely care both ways.
I'm not at all happy with this solution, but if there was a gun to my head, the only change I could think of is to limit the killers ability to find survivors when returning to hook somehow, possibly via losing scratch marks and grunts of pain for the duration of basekit BT.
This would mean weaker killers who have had to linger nearby and sacrifice their map pressure can likely still see the survivor and try and exert pressure via tunneling if needed... but your insanely mobile killers like Blight, Billy, Nurse, Wraith, Spirit, Ghoul, etc will have a harder time picking up the trial of the Survivor if they sprint back to hook after exerting pressure elsewhere, unless they bring perk investment like Floods of Rage to help.
I hate piling more basekit effects on survivor... but it's only a change along that lines I can see being reasonable...
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@SoGo said:
Watch content creators like Otz instead of relying solely on the frankly useless in-game tutorial.
Don't buy any perks from the Shrine unless they are from a license you don't intend on buying. In case of all the rest, you are just wasting precious shards.
Play more on the killer side if you're new, at least at the start. Trust me, you'll have less of a bad time this way and you don't get as frustrated as quickly.
Nice, probably the best starter advice. I think a lot more players would stick with DBD if they play both sides and search online for guides.
As an additonal point, I would also recommend levelling each character one full prestige level each with the early bloodpoints so they can start making builds quickly, and to start off I'd recommend:
- Feng - Lithe for chase help, Technician for skillcheck help, Alert for basic killer info and help finding kicked gens.
- Claudette - Empathy for chase info and healing help, Botany Knowledge for improved healing.
- Dwight - Prove Thyself with Deja Vu for gen speeds. Bond as an Empathy alternative.
Next consider: -
- Meg - Sprint Burst for more advanced chase help (helps a lot vs. the likes of Wraith), and Quick and Quiet can be good when combined with Lithe/Lightweight to hop windows and run.
- David - We're Gonna Live Forever is a good choice.
- Bill - Unbreakable of course.
First characters to unlock:
- Kate - Windows, Dance With Me is also great with Q&Q. Don't use Boil Over, cause it annoys killers and draws attention to them.
- Zarina - Off the Record obviously, and For the People is good, but not recommended for a new player.
- Jeff - Distortion is still a good perk to prevent them getting tunneled at the start via Lethal Pursuer or getting caught quickly after a hook by BBQ and Chilli.
Finally if in the shrine (or characters to buy), these perks if they ever see them are very helpful for newbies:
- Laurie - Decisive Strike (Use with Unbreakable)
- Ripley - Lucky Star (Use with Quick and Quiet/Lightweight)
- Steve - Babysitter (Use with We'll Make It or Botany Knowledge)
- Jill - Resurgence (Just great in its own)
Good luck!
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@terumisan said:
the reason why it spiked in usage is because slugging is more preferable than hooking which buffs survivors and constant gen regression nerfs
it wasn't really a griefing tool since there was counterplay with unbreakable and boon exponential
Aye that was logic, though those pushing that narrative (amongst which TruTalent and Choy) eventually did reach the conclusion that slugging the whole team wasn't generally speaking more effective than other strategies in DBD... it was usually harder to do in a lot of instances, and Knockout only really helped vs. SoloQ, not SWFs, so as a strategy it definitely drops off.
It makes sense, cause yes, a lot of survivor perks trigger off hooks, but also a lot of the stronger killer perks also trigger off hooks as well, such as:
- Scourge Hook Pain Resonance
- BBQ And Chilli
- Grim Embrace
- Dead Man's Switch
- Friend's Til the End
- Pop Goes the Weasel
- No Way Out
You get the idea. Sure A and S tier killers can slug very effectively... but they also have the strength to overcome survivor perks as well when hooking, so the point is still moot.
In any case, I'd say it was more often a griefing tool, mostly because it's value is so disproportionate/inconsistent depending on what kind of survivor team you go against... so it's genuine build usage is highly questionable.
As such there are not many, if any, normal build scenarios you'd take the perk really; taking the perk almost always meant you were going in with the express purpose of slugging the whole team....
This is, at best, a cheese strat that isn't going to remain relevant as you go against better and better survivors... a bit like playing the Fried Liver in Chess... it'll get you wins to start with, but you're playing in a way that falls down once you start hitting players that know what youre doing, and you dont have the other skills in your toolbelt to change strategy.
So with that in mind, I'd say it's usual usage was pretty much just to beat up on and bully soloQ… I.e. to grief low skilled players.
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Alternatively and as a casual necro, if it's not gonna change, I'd probably look at at least changing the perks name and description, something like this:
@UndeddJester said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/Z2TXBFW3N5JC/20250306-184909.jpg
Knock Out doesn't fit as a name at all anymore, and I was struggling for a concept to rename it…
Any ideas to fit this new perk? Preferably with some TCM flavour?
The best I have right now is:
Horrifying Visage
"You like this face?" - Hitchhiker
The mere sight of you fills your victims with dread, and even a moment of hesitation can cause a miss step
Maybe the icon can be Bubba's face? Or the silhouette of him holding his Chainsaw above his head?
Struggling otherwise, would like to hear others ideas?
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@Lexilogo said:
I'll say beforehand that if Knockout gets totally reworked again, I'd kinda like the current effect to become a new General Perk or something.
I also think that it actually shouldn't necessarily synergise with Bubba- It only buffing his hammer attacks isn't good for his gameplay, but it is thematic to the Perk and especially the TCM scene that presumably inspired it, so I like the idea of it reverting to a Basic Attack perk.
Anyway, here's my pitch:
When you down a Survivor with a Basic Attack, Knock Out applies the following effects:
- You recover from your Basic Attack 20/25/30% faster.
- Your victim Survivor loses the ability to self-recover from the Dying State, move in the Dying State, or wiggle while carried for 3 seconds.
- Picking up a Survivor afflicted by Knock Out is 40% faster.
My numbers are probably poorly thought out in some way but hopefully this gets the idea across. Encourages you to slug when you see a clear opportunity via the basic attack cooldown, but is of no real benefit if you're leaving people on the ground all the time. It also pulls double duty as a hook convenience perk in case a slugging opportunity never comes up, but with the downsides of being restricted to M1 Killers and you lose the benefit if you aren't willing to immediately commit to a pickup.
Certainly an interesting idea, and I agree with you that it's thematically tied to his hammer and the scene where he KO's/kills Kutis Watsanen is what I think of with this perk.
I would probably ditch the auto attack recovery speed, and just bump the victim being unable to move or recover for 10 seconds. The fast pick up also feels pretty on brand for Bubba, since of course, despite being a dead weight, he hauls Kirks body around with ease.
Gameplay wise is would mean those scrappy hits around tiles where the survivor that didn't quite fall under the pallet, can't quickly scramble under a pallet, which does give time for the killer to position nicely to pick up on the edge to try and avoid a stun, and make flashlight saves more tricky.
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@YetAnotherUnicorn said:
I also would like to see this. I have friends who had long covid and POTS that can't play because it triggers anxiety, but they would like to if they could turn the heartbeat sound off.
I agree that it shouldn't impact the gameplay negatively as there is a visual heartbeat and there is music too.
Help me out here, is them having long covid or POTS relevant to the heart beat? Your phrasing implies there is a causal link and an accessibility issue, but I'm struggling to identify the connection between them... Or is it unrelated and would just be a personal preference for them?
The biggest issue with introducing this feature is its quite a significant self nerf, since the heart beat is has subtle importance to gauge killer distance. You'd have to run the Visual Terror Radius otherwise the TRs become significantly harder to use.
Then of course there is the horror game argument, where causing anxiety is the entire point of the games design... all of which is to say... this would be an extremely uncommonly used feature.
A music archive might be nice though, maybe have all stages of their TR and chase music sometjing you can playback in the character bio screens. That'd be pretty cool.
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@CrypticGirl said:
99% of the time the Killer will be chasing you while you're trying to remove the axe, so why would you even want to run to the hooked Survivor?
While I dont think this point invalidates this issue...
I really wish more survivors understood this xD
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https://youtu.be/JcLztkzy3d4?si=bZGVMt6oFY-eNfZ3@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3948212#Comment_3948212
lol I try to control when my survivors will try to boop. My goal is to honor all boops, but also keep my MMR from tanking :D
Also, if someone tries to bm, booping may be pulled off the table ;)
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3947803#Comment_3947803
See, I consider this defense to be kind of disingenuous.
Firstly, it was indeed declared as anti-camp on the initial roadmap, and was then scaled back to anti-facecamp once it came to PTB. But also, when you go through that dev note, the description given doesn't fully match up with what was ultimately given.
"There's not much the survivor being camped can do"
This system failed to address that. Yes, it prevents Bubba from just parking himself in front of the hook, but camping overall has not been resolved or even alleviated. Killers still camp with roughly the same effectiveness as before.
So in terms of the system's overall effectiveness, it's essentially targeting a problem people didn't really have (After all, the problem was camping, not the killer standing close) and left the actual issue pretty much unmarred. So I think it qualifies as a system that 'didn't go far enough'.
That isn't true though, because camping isn't as effective anymore as a double whammy of the increased difficulty preventing a trade as a result of the AFC and the extended 70s hook timers... it is substantially easier to trade than it was before against all killers, but particularly better against killers like Hillbilly, Bubba, Huntress, etc, who could all previously sit directly in front of the hook and instantdown / double tap incoming players without even the chance to unhook.
Granted there are some hooks that are hard to reach still, but it's certainly easier than it was before, and as I've said, survivor perks like Reassurance, Camaraderie, Desperate Measures are all easier to use without having to put yourself at the same level of risk.
Like if I'm wrong, I'd appreciate being told how I'm wrong, because I'm not stating opinion, I'm stating facts. It is objectively easier to handle/play against a camping killer than it ever was before, barring the hard counter that was old Borrowed Time.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3946996#Comment_3946996
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3947017#Comment_3947017
AFC was initially on the road map as "anti camping". Here's what that looked like, for proof:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/NZC2525YS2XS/1000009298.jpg
What we were given was AFC, which, as everyone likes to point out, is not anti camping, it's anti FACE camping.
And, yes, this mechanic is severely undertuned. It doesn't even prevent face camping. The killer has an insane amount of time to avoid this completely, and can smack a survivor on hook for a good 30 seconds before backing up.
It was a day zero tactic for killers to literally face camp with this mechanic in place and just time it so they were just outside the 11m range before the unhook was possible.
It's, at best, a passing suggestion to please, eventually, consider moving back a few feet. When we were initially told it was an "anti camping" measure.
If you want to see an effective mechanic, the anti gen tap is actually effective. Gen tapping is gone, done. Doesn't exist. It's physically, mathematically impossible to stop a regressing gen mid chase unless the killer consciously and knowingly allows it.
That's a little disingenuous. That's like saying the "Anti-Slugging" feature touted a little ways back, which was the abandon feature to address 4man survivor team slugging, was promised to be basekit Unbreakable...
When the AFC feature was announced the devs made it quite clear that its intent was to resolve the most egregious cases of camping, but not remove camping as a strategy in the game. Heck Bubba was even named specifically as part of the same set of changes to reduce his camping effectiveness.
The dev note is right here, and it's literally called "Anti-Face camp":
I was here for that PTB, there was no confusion from anyone what the AFC was for, the devs were very clear about it. The PTB note was basically the same as it was later written here.
That is why everyone keeps saying "It's Anti Face Camp", because that is literally what it is, and there was never any confusion as to what it's purpose was when it was being developed on that PTB. In that regard, it isn't undertuned at all, it does exactly what its intended purpose is… so when people say "the Anti Camp feature is undertuned", it's completely false, because it isn't the Anti Camp feature.
You might WANT an Anti Camp feature, but that isn't what the AFC is, you're asking for a different feature. Furthermore it's a feature I don't agree with, because any killer who is camping out a single player vs. a semi aware team (perhaps with Kindred) is losing the game... 140s is more than enough time to lose at least 3, if not 4 gens.
Macro play and awareness is an important skill even for SoloQ, the HUD helps massively with this if the player pays attention... and just cause your average Solo Q player is completely oblivious and walks into the camp trap, doesn't mean that camping is overpowered in any way shape or form... in fact, it's a pretty sure fire way to lose the game most of the time.
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Couple of questions:
- Did you queue against the bloodpoint bonus? Because from what I have seen the queue times lately have been pretty bad for killer, so matchmaking being a take what you can get deal seems understandable.
- How do we know this isn't someone transitioning from another platform, who's MMR is much higher on other platform?
I only ask, because I've played with numerous players of varying degrees of skill and experience, and the common trends I tend to spot are that going against the bloodpoint bonus tends to be a crapshoot, which often leads to either really hard, or really easy games, whereas going with the bloodpoint bonus tends to result in much closer games to what you'd expect in all cases.
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@bazarama said:
Hasn't stopped the quitters.
Played 2 games last night and about 6 or 7 the night before.
In all bar one I had a survivor run towards me and stand still so I could hit them and after a hook save by another survivor follow me to be hooked again.
In 6 of the 9 games I was playing Artist who I'm not very good with but rather than try and probably win they quit at 5 gens in all 6 of the games.
Why bother loading in and spoiling everyone's game instead of playing something else?
I now just slug them and leave them on the ground but it's such a selfish act that hinders your teammates.
I now just slug them and leave them on the ground but it's such a selfish act that hinders your teammates.
From the Survivor side, I want to thank you for your service 😏🫡
Seriously though, the fact this change leaves it on the killer to actually kill survivors off, and this is just as likely an outcome, is a pretty good natural deterrent... trying to avoid the DC penalty by possibly having to wait on the floor to bleedout for 4 minutes is a diminishing returns type deal where leaving the game becomes more effort than just playing it out.
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@redhat74 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3947096#Comment_3947096
He has always taken ages to recover when cloaked but the question is about being uncloaked and having a huge stun duration, this never was like this… is this a bug?
If true, that would be a bug yes. Do you have footage?
Sounds like his cloak stun time isn't being reset when he uncloaks.
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@uveka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3947046#Comment_3947046
In my opinion, getting downvotes doesnt mean you're right and people are stubborn. Maybe your experience is now much better than before, maybe you are playing in higher mmr matches with better teammates than most of the players, who knows. But this game have so vast playerbase that maybe are encountering the opposite effect. Getting crows playing actively is something that happened to me in a few games, especially when killer use No way out. People being afk after being unhooked, a few dc's. idk, I have 2k hours, I'm not a beginner but not high mmr also, I play casual and I had worse matches than before.
So my point is, the experience may be so different for you and similar mmr players, but what if those casual (or less skilled) players are a higher amount? You have to take into consideration too.. I just find its hard to balance this game.
And that doesnt mean their opinion is not valid.
Said this, I agree they did well doing something against the go next players, but maybe is just not well implemented.
Of course, everyones experience is their own.
I don't consider myself a high mmr player, I have similar hours to yourself, and I run off meta builds all the time. Sat on an escape rate of 36%, which hardly makes me a top tier survivor.
My point is that this thread is specifically asking how your games are going with these changes... to which a number of us have said they are going better... because they are...
If you play casual, I'm sure you know the frustrations of the game well...
- Going up against hard meta loadouts that even if you play well, you just cant break.
- Going up against cheap playstyles that you dont have the perks to counter.
- Having teammates who make absurd/ridiculous plays that either grant incredible pressure to the killer for free that you can't undo, or set you up to get hard focused with no chance to survive.
These things happen and are frustrating, but at least these are a part of the game... when you keep playing through games like this, and finally get a game where you have a decent chance to win... it is so frustrating to have a player suddenly quit for no reason and doom the game, especially when you're actually winning... it makes all of the above so much more annoying, cause you ride through all these set backs only for someone who is supposed to on your side, turn around to break your knees when you actually get ahead...
The removal of self unhooks and hook suicides always ensures I can at least have a go at winning the game... I don't care if I lose really, I just want to have a decent attempt at winning... but if a teammate is gonna condemn the game 30 seconds in, I have no hope of even getting close to winning unless the killer is literally a bambi...
I've had games where a killer is living rent free in my head and reads me at every junction. Death hook in 2 mins flat. I've stayed hidden after my second unhook and watched a Nea then loop the same killer for 3 mins and won the game single handed... I could have quit, and you could say I got carried, but ultimately I stayed hidden, worked on safe gens a long way from the action and kept 4 players in the game... if the killer is searching for me and doesn't find me, I am still contributing to the team, even if I'm in a corner doing nothing.
I honestly can't understand why anyone would look at a teammate quitting and think "Yes! This is something players should be allowed to do because this game is so unwinninable for survivor", when quitting like this is a self fulfilling prophecy...
So to answer the OPs question... yes my games have been better cause win or lose, I have felt like I had chance every game, instead of 15-20% of my games being an immediately lost cause right from the word go.
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@Senaxu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3947012#Comment_3947012
Absolutely agree. The difference is night and day. Just the absence of early rage quits makes solo queue feel like an actual game again… and not just a coin toss on whether someone gives up at 5 gens. I’ve said it before: when people play it through, even bad matches feel more meaningful.
The new system isn’t perfect, but if it stops people from throwing the moment things don’t go their way, then it’s already done more good than harm.
Naturally, there’s some backlash from those who used to quit without consequence… but that’s exactly the kind of behavior the system was designed to address. New or less experienced players deserve fairness, but habitual rage quitting? That should come with consequences.
Yikes... it appears that claiming you're enjoying the game doesn't seem to make many friends eh? 😅
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Not gonna lie, as a soloQ survivor... I'm actually really enjoying survivor right now.... just not having someone immediately throw the game at the start every few games is making life so much nicer... and it's the same on killer, actually cause I always stopped playing if a survivor threw... the fact games are actual games almost every time is making DBD much more engaging to me again.
I also never use map offerings, so no issue for menthere... though I still think they need to be made less pointless. I think they should at least return to your inventory if your map isn't chosen and/or buff them to 33%... but it's certainly not a deal breaker for me.
If I'm honest, I was getting a little fed up of DBD... but Springtrap is engaging and fun to play against, even if I don't really like the IP... and the loss of rage quitters who immediately throw games in the trash is making the game fun again...
So yeah... I'm actually putting DBD back in my main game rotation...
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Also as an additional shout out, does anyone else really like the ability to wiggle on hook, even though it does nothing?
It's completely pointless... but for some reason I like just periodically trying to fake an escape attempt... gives me something to amuse myself with while I'm waiting to be saved.
Stupid little feature, but surprisingly appreciated.
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The AFC - I disagree.
The Anti Face Camp system does exactly what it is supposed to, which is punish killers for hovering directly under the hook and preventing trades and giving appropriate windows to allow intelligent and skillful play on the survivor side. By having the AFC as it is, it gives survivors the space they need to make use of their perks such as Reassurance, Desperate Measures, and other stealth/exhaustion perks to coordinate for the save, or even just solo sneak/run up to the hook to trade. It takes reasonable timing, skill and knowledge to do so, but the window is definitely there, which is wasn't before.
This is compounded by the fact a set of survivors who correctly identify a camping killer and continue to pressure gens while the killer exerts no pressure waiting out the hook timer, only to lose the unhooked player on a trafe, is on a fast track to losing, and its entirely on the survivor team to make the mistake of giving the camp value. An unhook isn't meant to be free, the survivor team should at least have some awareness in the trial.
Anti Tunneling - I disagree for the most part.
Basekit Borrowed Time does enough to reach a loop, or give time to body block the killer, especially if you have Sprint Burst or Lithe. It again requires skill to overcome effectively, but the window is provided... and if you want an anti-tunnel perk that works in end game, Borrowed Time is underrated as you can use the unhooked player to.body block for the unhooker.
Your real problem with tunneling comes from the killers with the map mobility to pressure gens, but still return to hook quickly. The killers with this type of mobility and lethality are always extremely strong at tunneling, and to face them you'd need to make survivor anti-tunnel perks frankly ridiculous to even have a reasonable chance.
Meanwhile, there are plenty of killers that fall very much foul of survivor anti tunnel perks and have no meaningful answer, and they can struggle to maintain pressure with them in the game, even if they aremt tunneling. Just yesterday in fact as Ghost Face, I got body blocked in the doorways of Badham by a Nancy with Dead Hard and Decisive Strike who denied my hook, which I very much needed to maintain pressure, and forced me drop the Claudette. The subsequent DS that I had to eat to remove it as an option cost me all pressure I had accumulated and effectively put me into a time deficit I couldn't recoup and lost me the game on the spot.
Abandon - Disagree. 2 players slugged is not game over, and survivors should be at least trying to win, not giving up at the slightest inconvenience.
How can anyone ever clutch a game with perks like Unbreakable, Made For This/WGLF, For the People, the aforementioned Decisive Strike or Dead Hard, if survivors bounce the moment the killer even starts amassing pressure?
AFK Crows - Agree, this feature does seem a little overzealous, but it's brand new, and subject to being tweaked, which I have no reason to assume BHVR won't do now it's got a much more of objective set of data in live servers to look at. If nothing is changed I will join you in having stuff to say, but given its not been a week yet, I'm not gonna jump on the finger pinting train just yet.
Go Next Prevention- Agree, it causes false positives which has resulted in it being killswitched. The loss of basekit unhook until 2 players are left, and SoH seems to work fine as changes on their own, I'm not convinced this feature is really needed.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/OSCNN0MCJJU1/1000007680.jpg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/DCGNRFV8356D/1000007681.jpg
I'm just proud of being a fair Killer player, nothing else :)
Anyone here plays like this as well?
I do the same man!
I also almost always play hatch, and even if I win the hatch showdown, I also tend to give hatch/gate anyway. I also tended to let players go when someone on their team is sabotaging the games and trying to SoH... so given that, I'm quite happy with a 56% killrate.
My Piggy is ofc also at a further Snoot disadvantage... 🐽
You slacking on the bloodpoints though... cut coin troubles maybe? 🥺
Which is finally fixed now! 🤘😁🤘
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@AlreadyTracer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3946172#Comment_3946172
I have a feeling that these guys just didn't play back then. No one ran Self Care when it was 50%, because it was still not a good perk. Definitely nowhere near the meta. And while you could argue that it was because other perks were way stronger back then...that's still very true now. Self Care at 50% would still not be that good, ESPECIALLY now that gens are 90 seconds and efficiency is even more important.
Did you know that in Asian servers, Self Care even at 35% is still meta to this day? That's why it's always appeared so highly on usage charts.
To say it's not good and no one ran it is not true, but the West tends to have a more altruistic play style that doesn't typically exploit the benefits of a perk like Self Care.
Not to mention that 32s on its own might sustainable, but you start factoring perks like Botany Knowledge makes a 50% Self only take 21.33s... which is only 5.33s more than Circle of Healing with no 14s boon set up required.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3946143#Comment_3946143
Wasting 32 seconds every single time you want to heal is NOT meta level in any way
You realize that's basically exactly same as when another survivor heals you, right? And selfhealing should not be even close to effeciency of altrustic healing unless it is limited in some way, which selfcare is not.
I know I'm preaching to the choir, but:
Goes without saying it's actually better for 1 player to Self Care for 32s over a second player healing over 16s, since the time cost to survivor side is the same, but in the self care secanrio, the other survivor is free to work on gens.
That's always been the value in every self healing meta, whether it's Self Care, OldOld/New Botany, Old CoH, or pre 9.0.0 medkits and syringes. Being able to self heal at the same rate or better than being healed by a teammate, means that extra pair of hands can go straight back to rushing gens.
Which ofc, there is the counter argument to allowing self healing to be good... Survivors wouldn't have to gen rush if healing was better, which is ofc true... It's the same logic as Blight and Nurse are strong enough not to have to tunnel and slug to win, and we ofc never see that happen either. Right?
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3946033#Comment_3946033
Monkey's Paw Curls
Wish granted, but when you get 3 Crows the Crows grab onto your shoulders and head and fly you into the Entity's warm embrace… you die… instantly.
😱😱😱😱😱
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It's still comparatively useless with BK and Resilience.
Just take medkits with the two 8 charge add-ons and Resurgence. Literally no point having Self Care or Strength in Shadows.
With BK working with medkits how it is now, Self Care needs to be giga buffed to be even close to being relevant.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
On one hand, the new system is annoying. On other other hand, I like crows, and it's nice to have crow friends.
Could a crow land on my shoulder rather than flying over my head until I get 3 crows?
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I thought for a moment it could be Hoarder, since it's pick rate and kill rate are identical, and its the only perk I can think of that I'd take with Human Greed...
However more likely it would just be a double entry for Human Greed actually... some mistake that causes a ghost entry for the perk...
So I think @Valtyk might have got it first try xD
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945884#Comment_3945884
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945885#Comment_3945885
It's okay.
I mean, the Entity is absolutely going to torture those who forgot its gift to killers, K37P02_0... buuuut it was always going to torture us all, anyway.
But I've served the Entity loyally! I've paid a fortune in blood!?
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945978#Comment_3945978
Wouldn’t Houndmaster be K38? Since Springy is killer 40, Kaneki would be 39, and HM came before him.
You're right, it just depends on if the killers are 0 indexed or not, as most things in programming are 0 indexed.
Basically is Trapper K0 or K1?
However either way, I did searches in the page and found entries for all of Dracula's, Houndmaster's, Kaneki's and Pinhead's perks, just to rule them out, and I found all of them (at least I'm pretty sure I did... can't recheck now cause stats tracker won't give me all stats now) 🥺
So given that... I dunno 😵💫
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@GentlemanFridge said:
Given the code, I imagine it‘s Hex: Wretched Fate.
See that would make sense... given things are often 0 indexed... but I checked Dracula's perks and found entries for all of them... and since 0 indexing is likely I also checked Houndmaster (which would be index 37)... and all of hers are there too...
I wonder if Pinhead's/Demogorgon's name changes may have messed up perk indexing... also wonder how general perks are indexed, but if general was 0 as you 'd assume that would correct the misalignment... and I'd still be Dracula or Houndmaster...
Sadly I went to double check this morning... but it looks like the stats refresh has wiped my existing stats and only displays the new stats from yesterday, even on all time view... So probably need to raise a bug for that on the stat tracker...
But yeah... I can't figure out what this perk is logically... I started trying searching for random general perks to see if I could find one missing, and Shattered Hope was one missing... but there is a chance I've never ran it too, so it won't appear in the list 😅
So yeah... I'm stumped...
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Curiously I've not hit any issues with it playing all of yesterday evening... I actually completely forgot all about it... but because I did forget... I also haven't been putting it through its paces or keeping an eye out, and maybe I just didn't see it while I was using things like Built to Last...
I think it's important for someone to compile a comprehensive list of false positives to be addressed. Might lead to more meaningful tweaks in the upcoming hotfixes.
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Quoting human rights is laughable, considering you do have a right to leave whenever you want, via the DC button. No part of you choosing to play this video game is forced, it is entirely your decision whether you play the game or not, as opposed to slave labour where such a person has no right at all to not do such a task. You can freely choose whether or not to play this game.
However, once you have committed to playing a game, there is an implied agreement amongst all players to play it. If I organise a board game, or a game of football, or a chess tournament, all players who join it have agreed to play. You might have even paid to be here, but the rest of us did as well, and you joining and leaving costs another player a slot, as well as ruins our investment in the game as well.
If you want to leave at the start of the game, it is then your right to do so, but by doing so, you have left everyone else without the right number of players to play the game we all agreed to play... therefore it is my right as a game organiser not to invite you back for the next game.
This is exactly what is happening here, BHVR is the game organiser through which you have agreed to play. If you don't want to play, leave, but you do not have the right to keep joining games and ruining them for other players without them also having the right to reject you from joining future games, which BHVR facilitates by giving you a temporary ban.
In this regard, you actually get off lightly in DBD, because your ban is only temporary, whereas in real life, such a ban would likely be substantially longer than minutes... if not permanent.
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@Pit_Bull_Love said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3944633#Comment_3944633
Would that help? Yeah, i agree, playing the other side does help you learn. Except there are 40 killers in the game now, and what...? Half or so cost additional money, while the other half cost hours of your time or real money. It's not reasonable to drop hundreds of dollars on every killer to learn their counter.
DBD is heavily streamed, an alternative method I would recommend is watch guides for those killers for the same effect on something like YouTube. It tends to be how a lot of new killers learn to play a killer.
To be honest, you could probably search directly for guides to face those killers.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3944596#Comment_3944596
That's kind of out the window, at this point.
DBD hit critical mass about four years ago, and there is FAR too much information for the average person to be expected to learn.
Even I would have trouble, and I have a weird brain that lets me absorb information extremely quickly.
I actually don't think there is anything wrong with having the DBD knowledge iceberg. I will admit that I am a dork with a lot of spare time, so I won't claim "I did it, so other people can"... however the point I want to make is, DBD isn't as impenetrable as people think... with the notable exception of playing survivor only
As someone who started playing a little over 2 years ago (it was my second DBD birthday at the end of May), my main experience from being a new player was that DBD is a very unique game... none of your traditional gaming skills apply to it... and that already does a great job humbling players but also striking their interest.
As a newbie I could very quickly see there was a lot to know in this game and it was not a casual romp... that new player experience is actually quite intimidating (even as killer), and with the mystery of unknown killers, that makes them pretty scary, which was great as a horror experience, which I still maintain is actually quite good for new players below maybe 400 hrs... so the game is not unfun for new players, your enjoyment is different to that of veterans. The aesthetic design of DBD as a horror game is quite engaging; simple mechanics like the terror radius is actually quite nerve wracking for newbies (still shudder every time I'm the sole survivor and trying to open gate). One of my favourite things with new players is seeing them go up against a Billy for the first time. 😅
Anyway, all this is to say, new players I don't believe are ignorant of the DBD iceberg at all and are thus running around like lost lambs... players quickly get a sense of how much there is to know in DBD, and anyone with any humility will not expect to be dominating this game at the start, and will take the time to read and experiment... the same way you would for a Soulsborne game.
Where I think the only real new player issue is, is a lot of players join DBD only to want to play with their friends, which means they play Survivor... and exclusively Survivor... and this game is much harder to learn purely from the survivor perspective, especially when pairing up with their veteran friends and thus boosting their MMR, as well as going against the bloodpoint bonus, which throws match pairings out even further...
Playing killer gives you much better understanding of killer mechanics, the killer powers, what the killer is trying to do, and why... and importantly you get to watch what other survivors do to get the better of you as killer... you see so much more of the game simply because as the killer you're the centre of it, and you're there for all of it…
This issue is then compounded by when survivor exclusive players do finally try killer, they go up against very new/inexperienced players, and because they have a solid base understanding of DBD at this point, they rofl stomp for quite a while, and conclude Killer is easy, without ever reaching levels where they really see the natural limitations of lower tier killers... thus all killers must therefore be OP... but ofc, anyone with real time on killer knows how helpless you can feel as a lower tier killer to play vs. a really good survivor team... and this is why high level survivors see mostly the same killers... at a certain level of survivors skill, there are simple too few mistakes a veteran killer can make on the lower tiers before they get run over.
All this is I genuinely believe that DBD is nowhere near as punishing to learn as people think it is... but I would caveat that with, you must play killer... and play it quite a lot... at least 25% of your time as a guesstimate... which if you think about is quite sensible to do so... this is an asym... if you want to really learn it, you absolutely should be playing both sides.
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If anyone is interested, an exceptionally good build is:
- Botany Knowledge
- Resurgence
- Medkit + Bandages (8 charges) and Self Adherent Wrap (8 charges, 5% healing speed)
- Vigil
- Sprint Burst/Lithe
This build let's you heal a full health state (24 charges) in 15.4s, and 2 times off hook in 4.62s (7.2 charges) each. Best part is, this is really cheap for add-ons.
Vigil helps to remove Haemorrhage and Mangled to hopefully ensure Resurgence works, and even if thats not in play, exhaustion perks are always good.
Have fun!
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It would seem the devs are looking into killer item and chest spawns, which should be a buff to ST and also fix Plague, Sadako and Xenomorph pain points.
So that's something to factor in.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3943038#Comment_3943038
I think the devs go back and forth on healing because there's a large subset of players for whom the game stagnates when they're injured. They simply avoid gens and will float around the map, maybe seek out chests, until they're healed up. This is actually why Empathy is a staple in my builds. I see players doing this and often have to go out of my way to heal them up so they'll actually get back in the game. You even see it when COH is in play, that injured person who just stands in the radius and waits and waits…
We know the devs were aiming to minimise self-healing and make healing more of a teamwork thing, not just with the old BK and COH nerfs, but also subsequent medkit nerfs. Reverting BK now tells me that maybe that hasn't worked out as well as they intended. There are plenty of players who know when you need to prioritise gens over healing but there's just as many players who don't understand (or care about) that. I'd imagine the devs have stats to support this. I say just give those players BK back. WMI and WGLF fall into that teamwork aspect, where again the responsibility falls on your team mates.
That's a fair observation, and thanks for giving a solidly reasoned post with actual food for thought. It's nice to have a response that isn't just "it's not that big a deal, why you mad?" that then doesn't address a single point I make.
Lots of perks made redundant or shadow buffed with thia change though. Babysitter is gonna be a must if you see a medkit lobby, that perk is gonna be goated.
RIP Strength in Shadows. I rather liked that perk with BK as a nice niche self heal option that also works well for team healing.... but with medkits now so much reliably better, the perk slot is just not worth giving up for SiS... and I can't see a reason why you ever would take it.
Self Care even worse than it already was. Suppose at this point these perks should be buffed to 80% and 50% respectively or something to even have a shot at being worth considering.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/447880/give-wesker-a-32-meter-terror-radius
On top of that, I'd give him 3 dashes basekit.
Jeez... steady on... 🤣
A skilled Wesker is already pretty damn scary, and 3 dashes is a huge buff on a killer that is already pretty darn good (if a little power crept).
A 32m terror radius has at least some merit to it given Wesker doesn't pack quite the same map traversal as the other killers that have been boosted up to 40m... but his map traversal isn't weak at all...
However in a hypothetical world where he is given 3 dashes, as well as being a frankly ridiculous buff, undoes the very point above immediately, 100% justifying a 40m terror radius... 😵💫
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Sigh, time for another round of downvotes...
Most people seem to agree it becomes the best healing perk in the game with this change, however where I disagree is with the idea this change is fine because healing sucks in the current meta.
Maybe they are right, maybe they're wrong, but I struggle to call We'll Make It and WGLF bad perks... they are quite strong... and to me it felt like there were a lot of meaningful factors to account for and trade offs to consider for each healing perk currently, and that is no longer the case.
Personally I think it boosts the value of medkits substantially, especially with syringes for 2 full solo heals, to the point its the most time efficient perk/item in the game, saving 16s of survivor time on 1 heal and 32s on a syringe heal. More if they take Resurgence.
Even once the medkits are spent, it's still an exceptional perk for recovering from slugging, healing off hook vs. tunneling and resetting against a killer playing hit and run or trying to hold a 3 gen.
To me it is a fundamental betrayal of game design to have 1 perk be head and shoulders above all other perks regardless of your justification for doing so... and I don't understand why everyone is happy to take a subpar bandaid solution on BK instead of demanding a proper one across all healing perks.
If healing really is that bad, it should be buffed across the board, not have Botany made the top on the pack in all scenarios. There is no reason not to run a medkit and BK as the most efficient survivor item now.
However that's just my opinion, my heart deflates seeing the change, cause every single healing build I've ever made now has to ask "why this over BK?", and the answer is "because you're an edge lord who wants to go against the grain... or an idiot... probably both".
However the majority voice has spoken, I have said my piece and made my opinion known. Can drop t and move on now.
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I got scene partner in chaos shuffle the other day... it interrupted me opening the gate 6 times while the killer was carrying a fellow survivor to hook... if the killer had slugged instead... I'd have died for sure xD
Is that a bug? I was under the impression that Scene Partner doesn't interrupt your conspicuous actions... but I don't really use the perk so ain't sure.
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@DigitalisObscura said:
I'm on board with a lot of these but absolutely not on the 10% Haste for 7 seconds for placing a trap… especially with faster trap setting speed. We know from Skull Merchant that passive Haste effects in killer powers don't lead to good gameplay.
Personally I'm more partial to a locker reload system just because it would break immersion less than Trapper using the Entity Force to psychically grab them. But neither way would bother me from a balance perspective.
I do think the least they could do would be the trap escape being a set time to reduce randomness, that just seems like an obvious one to me.
@Bakuriel said:
I've done my best to read through all the proposed changes so far, so if I missed something or address an issue that's already been addressed, I do apologize for it, but I did want to put my thoughts up here since there's an active discussion going on about Trapper.
Trapper is, and hopefully will always be, one of my favorite killers to play in DBD specifically because of the unique style of play he employs. Area control and denial are core parts of his play, and changing too much about that would make him feel like an entirely different killer or, as some have pointed out, just a carbon copy of another killer but slightly worse/better, depending on the changes. I like him as he is now, for the most part, but do agree that he needs some tweaks here and there to really find his stride.
First of all, I feel that Trapper should be weak in chase. He isn't intended to be a killer that drops his traps while actively chasing a survivor, that would miss the whole point of setting up a trap, which is supposed to be used for ambush. Can you use them to shut down a loop? Sure, but doing it in chase would be something that I'd argue should only be done to shut down a strong area and force a survivor into a different area. A poorly placed bear trap is effectively useless, yes, but so is any other power that misses its target. Clown misses a bottle? That bottle is useless and he has to throw another. It's why he has several of them in his base kit and can toss them out as often as he does. However, even if he did miss with that bottle, it still has value as a zoning tool because you can reliably guess that a survivor isn't going to run into that area unless they're forced to, so you can alter the direction of the chase even with that missed bottle. Trapper is similar, but the penalty for landing on one of his traps is massive, because it's the only power in the game that can outright immobilize a survivor. Other killers can hinder and even injure with their powers, but bear traps are the only thing that stop someone from moving entirely. That kind of power should be hard to use effectively, so knowing when and where to place them is absolutely key. I don't chase people with trapper, I redirect them. I don't have the resources to chase someone down for over a minute and get value out of it, and if I were slightly faster or better in loop, I know I and other players would be tempted to hold bad chases for much longer and end up losing pressure as a result. Trying to band-aid Trapper's chase by making him a lot better at it, but not so much that it changes his entire style, would actually make him lose more matches because the penalty for being baited away from his chosen zone would be larger. I personally thing that the haste effect after setting a trap is fine, because it encourages him to stay close to traps he's already set.
Second thing for me is what happens with Trapper at the beginning of a match. All of his traps, save the ones in his pack, are laid out all over the map, unarmed and quite often visible. Not only does this typically ruin the element of surprise that Trapper needs for his power to work, he's essentially the only killer in the game who starts the match having missed several of his ability uses just for loading into a game. You can argue locker placements all day long, but the killers who reload at lockers have ranged powers, so they can threaten a wide area around that locker both before and after leaving to reload. Trapper requires prediction and precision. The penalty for having to walk to a locker to pick up traps is actually a lot larger than it seems at first, and it also alters Trapper's gameplay loop so much that he stops playing anything like he did before. Trapper should move with intent and purpose, so I prefer his traps that stay where they were placed and need to be picked up if they lose value. I see that exchange as fair. I do not, however, think it makes sense for all of his traps to be laid out randomly at the start of the match. That fundamentally breaks his gameplay loop and punishes him just for loading into a match. I think trapper should start the match with all of his traps, and I think he should be able to pick them up as well. If that's too strong, just give him fewer traps overall and change the trapper sack to give him more traps but remove the ability to pick them up. Punish trap placements made by choice, not by rng.
Last point I want to make is about disarming and escaping traps. I'm not sure if traps remain active while someone is disarming them or not, but I feel like the traps should injure anyone trying to disarm it if it gets triggered in the middle of the attempt. I don't mind it just taking time to disarm the trap baseline, I think that works fine as is, but struggling free of it shouldn't be up to chance. Trappers don't like it when someone gets free in next to no time on the first try and survivors don't like it when they can't get free regardless of how often they try, that removes player agency from the situation. I say make it more like removing one of Pig's traps, but a bit simpler. Flat duration, just a few seconds long, enough to offer two skill checks, and successful skill checks shorten the timer. Failed skill checks snap the trap shut again and you have to start over. This rewards successful skill checks and punishes failed ones, just like the rest of the game does. Altruistic players moving to free someone from a trap should still be able to open the trap without skill checks, because you're immobilizing two players at that point.
I'm sure I've missed some details or forgotten to address something in the middle of typing all this, so feel free to point that out and I'll try to respond when I'm able.
I do feel that there is a bit of overstatement going on through this thread with regards to the haste buff, given Trapper already has Coffee Ground and Fastening Tools as add-ons to give 12.5% haste on a 50% faster trap setting speed for 5s.
This compared to 10% haste with 30% faster trap setting speed for 7s I just don't see being the huge issue that everyone is naking it out to be...
However... full disclosure, the haste buff is the least interesting change to me, I wouldn't really be upset if the rest of the changes come in and the haste buff was left out.
I do believe that haste is usually a cheap means of making anything viable in DBD, so I would be content either way.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3942366#Comment_3942366
I'm sorry to tell you this, but what you or I think he should be doesn't matter, it's what BHVR thinks, and being acceasible for new killers and survivors alike is their defined purpose for Trapper, so sadly none of us get to ignore the low level game (and in general its a bad idea to do so for any killer). I had a cool idea for a basekit ability to "rig" traps to injure survivors who disarm like bloody coil with a hard skillcheck... but that's not Trappers purpose, and we can't escape that purpose.
Then that's Behavior's mistake to make.
Well, a lot of these proposed changes do make him better against stronger survivors though, and also still focus on setup...
I hard disagree, but okay, we can get into it.
The faster trap setting speed helps his setup, and gives him less vulnerability to hold W in chase, as the does the extra haste for slightly longer too. These things improve both parts of his kit, which he needs for higher levels...
Kind of. I don't think an extra 2 seconds of Haste or half a second off of setting a trap is going to magically make him able to chase down someone who holds W. It's putting a band-aid on a bullet wound. He will always be weak to pre-running and shift-w, just like every other killer without a mobility power.
The ability to walk through a trap that a survivor has to walk around, as well as go through them to hook increases his potency substantially at loops and actually makes his setup meaningful and strong, because he has access to paths that survivors don't.
If that was a big deal, then his wrap add-on would be one of his most used add-ons. But it's not. You know why? Because being able to shave a fraction of a second off of a loop isn't usually the difference between a hit or not.
These things take a lot of knowledge and skill to properly exploit, that dont really impact the standard "trap pallet or window" traps low level payers use. So we still keep Trapper accessible, but have more advanced strategies to use against stronger survivors.
The problem is that they're so minor that they won't REALLY make a difference against stronger survivors. Again… band-aid. Bullet wound.
The difference is mine (and Pally's) supplements the existing mechanic rather than replace it, since trap management is one of the few areas of skill expression Trapper has, we both want to plan for and keep the ability to grab traps out of the map.
Yours makes it so you can't get traps out of the environment and MUST return to a locker to get more. That is map reliance. Mine is more a tool of convenience, where if a trap isn't conveniently nearby, you can use a locker instead, while Pally's straight up ignores lockers compeltely and allows you to grab any trap you want almost at any time.
I'm sorry, is walking around the map like a doofus collecting traps a "skill" now? Seriously? Trapper's "skill expression" isn't collecting and managing traps. It's knowing where to put them. It's knowing how survivors run tiles, knowing what survivors can see while running those tiles, and placing a trap that will actually catch a good survivor. You keep going on and on about how managing his traps is a skill, but it's really not.
And not only that, but having to go around the map and collect your traps is why he's in D tier. That's the reason. He'd be C tier if he had more ready access to his traps. He's one of the only killers in the game that can down a healthy survivor. However, having to hoof around the map as a base M1 killer with no mobility to get access to his power is why he's as bad as he is. Getting them from lockers or just having them available at all times would mitigate or eliminate this weakness and easily boost him a tier. And going to a locker to get more traps is a hell of a lot easier than walking across the entire map.
Like… listen to yourself.
"Collecting traps from a locker would make him more map dependent and too reliant on lockers. Going to a locker isn't always convenient. Therefore, we should keep making his traps spawn randomly across the map so he can go play Easter Egg Hunting at the beginning of every match instead of setting up his web. Walking ten or twenty meters to a poorly spawned locker is too much, but walking literally across the map to pick up a trap is so much more convenient!"
Are you serious right now?
It's not a contest dude, I'm not trying to crap on your idea, but a lot of the areas of your idea brute force a particular 3-gen/area lockdown playstyle. If players want your playstyle great... but if they want any other playstyles, yours doesn't accomodate it.
That IS Trapper's playstyle. It's the only one he's good at. That's like saying you should give Wesker traps in case someone wants to use Wesker as a trap killer. Small number buffs to his haste aren't going to change that. If someone wants to play a chase killer, there's other ones. Wraith and Billy are free and unlocked when you first boot the game. But we don't need to butcher Trapper's identity to make him yet another chase killer. That's not what he is.
The point of having all the killers, add-ons and perks in DBD we do is for everyone to play to their own playstyle... Pally's version I like the most because:
It gives advanced strategies to Trapper without really affecting the low level game.
For the most part he remains simple and easy to understand for both sides.
It offers a lot of flexibility for builds and playstyles.
Deals with a lot of the goofy and dated parts of his kit, but also keeps Trapper very much feeling like Trapper.
His is a version that I feel gives the best version of Trapper for the most players, and has the benefit of actually having a chance of being implemented by BHVR because it achieves their goals.
No, it doesn't. It turns him into an anti-loop haste killer. It turns him into old Skull Merchant. That's what it does.
Alright I tried to be fair, but if you're just gonna hold the stance everyone else's idea is wrong and yours is the only right perspective, I'll say it outright... you're not very good at Trapper and I can determine that because you can't see the value of these changes. You sound to me like a Trappers Sack 3-gen around basement one trick.
Trapper is fundamentally incompatible with the pace of modern DBD, his design was for a completely different era of the game that is simply not compatible with where the direction of the game went. You simply can't make him strong without making him obnoxious, and none of these changes make him overly strong... which you seem to agree with, but then you suddenly reverse to say that now he's Skull Merchant level OP... which is plain false and feels deliberately inflammatory to push your ideas instead of engage with others.
Yes managing your traps is part of the skill of playing Trapper. Planning where you want to have to have your traps and efficiently collecting them/positioning them for later gain. Skill is not limited to how well you can aim your mouse; tactile skill, map knowledge and exploiting typical survivor behaviour are also skills, and if you don't appreciate that, you're not a Trapper player.
Lastly your changes don't solve any of the problems you've highlighted and will make him suck even more than he already does.
- Making traps "blend in" is still not gonna catch good survivors, which you can already see in maps like Midwich where they do already blend in. Unless you wanna make them near invisible, which is plain ridiculous.
- Making traps take 30s to disarm is stupid, and the proposed "Skull Merchant" issue you talk about becomes so much worse because there is literally 0 counter play once you're in his web, so people will just ignore his web and gen rush while he's farting about around lockers.
- Heavy locker dependency again, is dumb, and encourages just setting up your unbreakable traps around a basement 3-gen. You'll beat noobs but any decent players will just rush the rest of the map and then slowly break the 3 gen through attrition, ignoring all loops, and just run to map corner whenever they get hit until you lose.
All of this amounts to Trapper just screwing around setting up, and then just losing the game anyway unless he can be a basement goblin and survivors try to be overly altruistic. Only a fool wants to push this playstyle more than can already be done with Trapper's sack.
See? Its quite easy to just say everyone else's ideas are crap and not engage with them, but those are the downsides of your suggestion... and I can't honestly say I believe you're a Trapper main if this is what you think will "help him" against good survivors.
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I rarely get drops... but when I (or a friend) does, it can be annoying that you can't rejoin the game.
If you can't move onto the next, would also be a good deterrent against DCing where you are effectively locked in the game until it the "Abandon" conditions are met... Maybe this can remove your DC penalty 😏
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3942360#Comment_3942360
I don't think we can come to an agreement because I think we have two very different versions of what Trapper should be. I honestly don't care about the small number of newcomers we have as a revolving door in the game. I don't play against them, they usually don't stick around long anyway, and I think that balancing a 9 year old game around them is kind of ludicrous. I understand that you, and the guy in your video, have a very different view and that's okay. We can agree to disagree.
I'm looking at ways to make Trapper better against the survivors I actually play against while keeping his identity as a setup killer. You're looking at ways to give him small buffs while keeping him newcomer friendly. We're approaching the problem from two very different viewpoints and I don't think that we'll ever come to a consensus.
I don't understand why my locker idea makes him "overly dependent on lockers" while yours doesn't. The only difference is that you would have him pointing at two useless traps in the distance before he opens the locker. Oh, wait, you'd make him only get ONE trap, and put it on a 15 second cooldown lol. So he'd be going to lockers twice as often as with my idea… but somehow my idea makes him more locker dependent than yours. Make that make sense.
I honestly don't care about the small number of newcomers we have as a revolving door in the game. I don't play against them, they usually don't stick around long anyway, and I think that balancing a 9 year old game around them is kind of ludicrous.
I'm sorry to tell you this, but what you or I think he should be doesn't matter, it's what BHVR thinks, and being acceasible for new killers and survivors alike is their defined purpose for Trapper, so sadly none of us get to ignore the low level game (and in general its a bad idea to do so for any killer). I had a cool idea for a basekit ability to "rig" traps to injure survivors who disarm like bloody coil with a hard skillcheck... but that's not Trappers purpose, and we can't escape that purpose.
I'm looking at ways to make Trapper better against the survivors I actually play against while keeping his identity as a setup killer.
Well, a lot of these proposed changes do make him better against stronger survivors though, and also still focus on setup...
The faster trap setting speed helps his setup, and gives him less vulnerability to hold W in chase, as the does the extra haste for slightly longer too. These things improve both parts of his kit, which he needs for higher levels...
The ability to walk through a trap that a survivor has to walk around, as well as go through them to hook increases his potency substantially at loops and actually makes his setup meaningful and strong, because he has access to paths that survivors don't.
These things take a lot of knowledge and skill to properly exploit, that dont really impact the standard "trap pallet or window" traps low level payers use. So we still keep Trapper accessible, but have more advanced strategies to use against stronger survivors.
I don't understand why my locker idea makes him "overly dependent on lockers" while yours doesn't.
The difference is mine (and Pally's) supplements the existing mechanic rather than replace it, since trap management is one of the few areas of skill expression Trapper has, we both want to plan for and keep the ability to grab traps out of the map.
Yours makes it so you can't get traps out of the environment and MUST return to a locker to get more. That is map reliance. Mine is more a tool of convenience, where if a trap isn't conveniently nearby, you can use a locker instead, while Pally's straight up ignores lockers compeltely and allows you to grab any trap you want almost at any time.
It's not a contest dude, I'm not trying to crap on your idea, but a lot of the areas of your idea brute force a particular 3-gen/area lockdown playstyle. If players want your playstyle great... but if they want any other playstyles, yours doesn't accomodate it.
The point of having all the killers, add-ons and perks in DBD we do is for everyone to play to their own playstyle... Pally's version I like the most because:
- It gives advanced strategies to Trapper without really affecting the low level game.
- For the most part he remains simple and easy to understand for both sides.
- It offers a lot of flexibility for builds and playstyles.
- Deals with a lot of the goofy and dated parts of his kit, but also keeps Trapper very much feeling like Trapper.
His is a version that I feel gives the best version of Trapper for the most players, and has the benefit of actually having a chance of being implemented by BHVR because it achieves their goals.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3942306#Comment_3942306
I think you're missing the point. You could play that way NOW. Right now, I could load up Trapper, give him coffee grounds and trapper tools, and drop traps in a little over one second and get 12.5% Haste for 5 seconds. What keeps me from doing that is the unavailability of traps and 5 seconds of haste just isn't QUITE enough to guarantee a hit.
As a Trapper main, I hate that all of his proposed reworks try to turn him into a chase killer. He's not a chase killer. He's a setup killer. You want a real Trapper rework that keeps his identity? Here you go:
- Make his traps blend in better based on what map you're playing on. Right now, he's extremely map dependent. Maps like Eyrie or Ormond have his traps sticking out like sore thumbs.
- Don't let survivors disarm traps for free. Make them rummage through tool boxes (conveniently spaced around the map) for 20 seconds to get a special Trap Disarm Tool. Then, and only then, can they disarm ONE trap. If they want to disarm another one, they have to go get another Trap Disarm Tool. It would make survivors have to think twice about if they want to disarm a trap or if they want to try to play around it. It would also not allow one survivor to just follow Trapper around disarming his traps and taking away his power, while giving Trapper some much needed passive slowdown.
- Traps no longer randomly spawn. He can carry two traps, and place those two traps, then he goes to a locker to get more. Once he has 10 traps placed, reloading at a locker would destroy old traps to make room for the new traps that he just got. You're still having to manage your trap economy, but you're not hoofing it around the map to get your power back.
- The trap escape time you suggested is good. Nothing more annoying than seeing a survivor get trapped, then escaping in two seconds.
- Give him a 10% Haste buff while a survivor is trapped in a bear trap. This lasts for 2 seconds after all survivors have escaped from their trap.
- Remove the ability of the map item to see Trap auras.
This proposed rework would make traps actually threatening again. Harder to see, harder to remove, and more deadly when stepped in. It would also fix the most annoying part of his power, which is collecting traps from around the map. Would he still be a weak killer? Yup. Setup killers often are pretty weak in modern DBD. But it would bump him out of D tier into high C tier while keeping his identity intact. If you buff the haste, then the haste becomes his power, not the traps.
It seems like you may have forgotten that the main point of Trapper is to be the introduction killer to DBD.
You're right he's not a chase killer, but thats why nerfing the add-ons with their inclusion basekit is fine. Any situation where the 2s difference would have made a difference would be a situation where faking a trap plant would have also scored a hit. I don't really understand your objection here if the addons are nerfed in line with being made partially basekit... since Coffee Grounds and Fastening Tools are already in the game and those add-ons don't already make Trapper a chase killer...
I can appreciate you have your own ideas, but your argumentation isn't as strong as the picture painted by Pally's video above. Trapper is meant to be simple to understand and someone a newbie can pick up and play, and play against. Any buffs to him should be simple, easy to understand, or something that only really comes into play when optimising for higher levels, that leaves the low level game relatively untouched.
- Make his traps blend with the environment - That's what the Tar Bottle rework is for, this feels like a good effect for an add-on. Making this basekit is something that royally screws up new players even more than Trapper already does, so having it at base it a little overly punishing.
- 20s to get an item for 1 trap disarm - This is the same effect as above of being overly complicated... you've effectively made his traps a 30s+ disarm, to the point there isn't really any reason to disarm a trap cause the cost of doing so is greater that just sitting on a gen and ignoring the traps.
- Traps now only come out of lockers - Pally addressed this already in his video, and I made the same point in my trap recall suggestion. This makes Trapper overly reliant on lockers to get his traps, it'd make him even more map dependent, a map like Ref Forest can be very frustrating with locker placement... My suggestion doesn't generally affect him meaningfully majority of the time, and Pally's doesn't feature it at all. Trapper should not need to be heavily map locker spawn reliant to function.
- Cheers, we are least agree on that.
- 10% Haste buff when a survivor gets trapped - Not an unreasonable idea, but this is a haste boost out of his control that makes it effectively random when he'll get it. More often than not it'll just make him randomly speed up in chase whenever anyone gets trapped... which if we're against making him a chase killer, seems a bit strange that he'll just get a sudden haste steroid out of the blue. I don't think his power should be balanced around a lucky boost....
- Why this is still a thing is laughable to me too xD
I do get where you're coming from, I had a lot of my own ideas for buffing Trapper, but I do encourage you to give Pally's video a watch if you haven't already, and really think on it, cause he explains his perspective really well, and I've walked back on a lot of my own ideas (that I still think are pretty good) in favour of this one...
What's nice about these changes is they keep Trapper simple, nooby friendly, and familiar, but also give him some nice tools to improve him as you get better and more experienced with the killer... and while more complex designs would be nice, we have to remember what his purpose in DBD is, and these changes from Pally are a really nice set of changes across the board.
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@Langweilig said:
I agree with everything except of maps no longer revealing his traps. Maps don‘t need or deserve any type of nerf.
Another thing I want is much much faster trap setting speed when not in chase.
Maps should be improved in general, not made only relevant (and tbh still not even really relevant) by specifically screwing over the weakest killer in the game.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
With this proposed rework, Trapper's new best addons would be Coffee Grounds and Trapper's Tools. With those, you'll set a trap in about 0.8 seconds and get a 10 second, 15% Haste. 3 stacks of PWYF on command.
His new gameplay loop would look like this:
- Chase survivor to loop
- Drop trap to make loop unplayable.
- If they stay, they get trapped and insta-downed.
- If they leave, use 15% Haste to catch up and try to get a hit before the survivor reaches another loop.
- Rinse and repeat as needed until downed.
I think there was a killer who would chase a survivor to a loop, press M2 to make that loop unplayable and get Haste, then use that Haste to get a hit. And I'm pretty sure survivors hated that character so much that Behavior nuked her from orbit 9 months ago and have barely started rebuilding her. I'm fairly certain that survivors despised the way that with a single M2, they were forced to leave the loop and were constantly put into lose/lose situations with little to no skill expression.
And make no mistake, this rework is just Skull Merchant 2: The Skullening. Not only does it completely destroy Trapper's identity as a setup killer, it turns him into a more powerful version of the most hated killer that Dead by Daylight has ever seen. Instead of causing an injury with his M2 on survivors who played at a loop, he'd get a down. Instead of a small Haste buff, he'd get Bloodlust 3 for 10 seconds.
For how much everyone hates Skull Merchant, it's odd that people keep trying to turn Trapper into another Skull Merchant.
Well, agree with that observation, though those add-ons are the higher rarity versions of the add-ons/effects being added basekit. Given those add-ons are now partially basekit, it would be a reasonable expectation for those add-ons to be nerfed accordingly.
Also, just for clarity, the haste effects is being made 7s, not 10. 15% haste (or 12.5 with a nerf) would only be a temporary PWYF like effect that comes off of stopping to set traps, not an in built effect always on until you get an injury... so it's not quite apples to apples.
Coffee Grounds isn't exactly overpowered now by any stretch... I don't see a reason why adding 2s suddenly makes it busted.
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@KNIGHTWOLF said:
I think they should repurchase the license for him
Fingers crossed negotiations are under way!!!
I certainly wouldn't be for lack of BHVR trying.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3941689#Comment_3941689
That killers got buffs doesnt mean they are strong. The game is still heavily survivor sided and developers are afraid to do a bigger balance changes. 95 % of killers need way more buffs.
No ofc not, but, that doesn't change the fact that all of these killers did get buffs to their chase and/or map traversal, which in conjuction with the 3-gen change does appear to indicate an intent to push these killers away from relying on this playstyle and committing more to chasing survivors.
If you have all these killers with these buffs without the 3 gens changes then they just get better at 3 genning, whereas doing this in conjunction with the 3 gen change is the kind of change you make if you want to shake up the game...
The argument is always these killers have to 3-gen, but if you take it away as a steadfast strategy, you can then start buffing them since you no longer have to worry abuit excessive 3 genning in your balance changes. The principle is short term pain, for long term gain.
Whether or not we all agree with every change BHVR makes, you can't deny that BHVR have been taking a lot of steps to shake up the game lately... and they've been listening to their community more than ever for the last 2 years.
Anyone at this point who claims BHVR are only listening to one side is just flat out wrong, because there have been a lot of sizable buffs and changes for both sides.