UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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@radiantHero23 said:
I love Pig and Sadako for their unique and strategic approach to playing out trials.
Sadly, Im in the minority there. A LOT of people enjoy fast killers with dashing powers. Just look at pick rates. The most loved killers are Billy, Blight, Oni and the likes.People dont want complex unique abilities that require much thinking. They want to zoom and flick with their mouse to get fast rewards.
I know this sounds harsh, but its the reality. Its why behaviour has been avoiding doing another Pig, Pinhead or Sadako.
It is an eternal frustration to be someone who loves trap killers... I go in waves and whims with other killers, but the killers I most consistently return to are Pig, Trapper, Skull Merchant, Hag and a bit of Myers...
In all 5 cases I try to play in more crafty and clever ways instead of unga bunga cheese such as crouch follow Scream Pig, Basement Trapper, Hook camp Hag, Poop drone at tile/hard 3 gen Skull Merchant, or Tombstone Piece Myers... and I generally avoid slugging and tunneling unless absolutely necessary...
...All while having to play while being shot in the knee caps (especially on Skully and Trapper)... and I've been smashed a fair number of times... and there are a subset of people that still hate you anyway 🥺🥺🥺🥺
That being said, it's always nice when you get the odd message from someone who genuinely wants to wish you a GG for being sporting. Makes the teabags worth it 😊
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I will admit, the axe was a weird choice to me... I don’t recall it ever being in any of the games... admittedly I haven't seen them all, as I hate the series from FNAF3 onwards and watching them was painful so I never made it all the way through... but I've never seen anything in the official content about an axe... apparently it's a fairly widely known fan made thing?
However, regarding the axe, it could have been literally anything... could have detached and threw his hand even... which would also make sense for the killer instinct nearby, since it'd be a part of Springtrap, and would obviously make the grab far more sensible since it's 2 parts of Springtrap working together.. rather than a random seemingly enchanted axe.
Course it'd still be the same gameplay loop as Huntress... but at least the comparison wouldn't be quite so glaring...
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@thrive2survive said:
They both suck equally in my eyes.
The purest of equal opportunities xD
P.S. Also finding the unqiue names people give the zombies highly amusing xD
https://youtu.be/P4tQsOtw5G0?si=IZMX9zbUTla7S7I6Misty limps around Z-walls
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932703#Comment_3932703
When you play survivor and realize your matches are not going anywhere because a survivor is just running around not doing gens, I will wait for your reply here agreeing with me
That is describing a different problem... and one I already experience regularly.
Survivors are already plenty allergic to generators... however I'll take a goomba doing nothing and potentially getting hunted by the killer for ratting, over a player who SoHs and literally signs my death warrant at minute 1 because they can't be bothered. Incompetence is much more tolerable than selfishness.
I practice what I preach dude. You're talking to a player who almost always sticks out the trial and won't SoH unless I'm giving a player hatch. Even if I'm slugged for the 4k, I'm still crawling away to try and get hatch, or at the very least dying to bleedout instead of getting hooked. My favourite perk is Tenacity for this (and many other anyi slug) reasons.
I am not a killer main giving survivors unnecessary smack, I'm actually a soloQ survivor main, (70% survivor gameplay I was surprised to learn), who gets way more annoyed at my entitled survivor teammates than pretty much any strategy the killer employs.
People can complain the games are "unfun" all they like. I too get annoyed by Legion and Oni in 2vs8 and OG Kaneki... but once you deliberately throw a game for the players who are actually trying in your team, you are only a shade above hackers on the gamer shame tier list. I ain't gonna throw the game for almost anything (short of being deliberately set up by a 3 man SWF), and I do not sympathise at all with the people who do.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
I like using aestri's perks while on her, and it still saves me from getting hit but very rarely. One thing that gives it away as an illusion is the fact that it doesnt move, and has this cloudy effect whos only purpose is to tell the killer its an illusion lol. If they atleast make the illusion more believeable that be a big buff alredy, as killers often try to hit it to this day because the perk is so rarely seen they arent expecting it. (Its especially funny when its a legion wasting their power combo on it because they didnt see the killer instinct effect was on the other side of the gen lol).
As for being invisible, im not sure if thatd be too much as with the above changes the killer would alredy have a confusing dilema on which survivor is fake and which one they should hit. If it was more believable it might even make ghostfaceand myers confused as to why their staring isnt working lol
Good shout on it being a pretty hard counter to Myers/Ghost Face, didn't think of that... 🤔🤔🤔
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I think its important to precisely define what it is you want a rework to achieve.
Pig's unique traits are: -
- A decent but not overly strong chase power with her ambush.
- Strong macro slowdown with her RBTs.
- Effectively turns the game into a 3v1, greatly enhancing her ability to predict survivor movement and strategise accordingly.
- Quite varied playstyles, with add-ons that can be combined well to push her different playstyles.
- Similarly quite extensive perk synergy that offers quite a variety of build options to further shore up her weaknesses or push particular playstyles.
I would be interested in seeing her be buffed, however quite a few people have a set idea what they want Pig to be, me included... however I think its important to ensure that ALL aspect of her kit play a prominent roll in her gameplay, not push her one way or another.
For example Pig is a strong macro focused killer, and thus naturally she has to take compromises on micro gameplay, however there are subset of players who dont really want to play the macro game, and think her ambush should be the star part of her power. They basically want to keep buffing ambush to make her effectively Chucky-lite, able to heavily pressure the micro game, and are willing to sacrifice significant portions of her macro game to do it.
Conversely there are those that want her macro game pushed even harder, almost to the point that she gets a head pop every single match. They want her threat of her RBTs to be so strong that despite her weaker chase, there are high probabilities that applying the RBT is effectively a death sentence for the survivor.
Pigs ability to be pushed towards particular playstyles is one of her best traits. She is weak overall, but the combination of her abilities gives a player good at predicting survivor movement a lot of opportunities to out-think and play DBD in a very unique tactile way.
So if you want to buff her (or rework her in any way), you have to clearly state what it is you are trying to do.
A buff I would like for example would be something to help her in the early game. Once she has the ball rolling, Pig can start to shine... but until that point, she is very weak and prone to being blown out of the game on a bad chase at the start of the trial. Something like a single head trap out at the start would help massively, but of course, that isn't earned, so would be a cheap buff... but you get what I'm saying.
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@Rudjohns said:
"Go next prevention" is a massive buff for killers, again….
Personally I see it as a buff for survivors... maybe I'll not lose 20% of my games due to some rash throwing for content or giving up immediately cause they got outplayed by a Myers.
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- Clown would be cool for team vapour boosts. His ally would make up for his main weakness and give some interesting team ups.
- Artist would be interesting for map wide info, and her swarm spread add ons would be cool.
- Doctor would be interesting for team info and slowdown.
- Bubba needs to come purely for the Super Chainsaw Brothers.
- Pig would be interesting for killer slowdown. 4 traps base with JMF, Workshop Grease, Jigsaws Sketch and Jigsaws Annotated Plan (Giving 6 overall) would be interesting add on combos. The fast healing of Medics works well in combating the tunnel issues Survivors would face.
- Pyramid Head is needed for sure... to show these punk killers what a real cage looks like 😏
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932570#Comment_3932570
Does that mean a SWF can bring 1 luck offering, and the SWF can Go Next if one of them dies early?
Far as understand the notes no... they all state the person who brought that offering can, not anyone else.
I'm not sure if luck offerings still stack luck for the whole SWF though...
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@soupmix said:
I do hope that it's no longer impossible to give up for hatch in a 1v2 scenario
To be honest, this might actually be a benefit to the game... because the killer can hook the last survivor instead of slugging for the 4k for perks like BBQ and Chilli, Alien Instinct or FttE and actually play the hatch game.
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@adam1233467 said:
What about deliverance and wicked? These perks are getting changed?
Literally my first thought, I assume these are not in the list because they have an activation condition, so their unhook is conditonal rather than inherent, whereas these other perks make them inherent.
One question I have, @ThatRyanB does Up the ante/the luck offering seems to only allow the perso who brought it to attempt to unhook... does the luck still stack like it does before if multiple people bring these perks/offerings?
While I don't think luck should work at all how it does, if all Luck effects were made personal only, they could possibly be made better without being so abusable by whole teams. This might make them fine. (If they were a little better withoit full team stacking it'd also impede the ability to go next as well, since you have say a 30-40% chance you self unhook)
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No gonna lie... I've been watching Oni's absolutely decimate teams on 2v8, almost never missing a swing... it feels like as survivor there is almost no counterplay when he's in power. You hide or just burn pallets... cause Oni just doesn't miss 95% of the time... (which is fine, cause he's an m1 killer until he gets power, so it has to be strong once he gets it).
So with that I'm gonna guess the problem is it's annoying, not that it isn't functional? So I have to ask... are you sure that it's an objective problem, rather than a personal preference?
Because I can see the argument going the other way just as easily... something like: "Why do I have to play with an absurd DPI and wang my mouse hard to left or right and give myself tennis elbow, just for the killer to function?". Doesn't requiring a fine input control test the same skill as before just in reverse, with small precise movements instead of large ones?
Given that this configuration actually allows console players to Oni more too... this seem just as valid a solution?
If it's more than that... and something he used to be able to do that he can't anymore, or its something that you wouldn't be able to adapt to... could you elaborate further?
(BTW I'm just playing Devil's Advocate, I don't personally have a a stake in it one way or another).
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@jesterkind said:
Personally I think the best way to handle this would be to steadily add voicelines to more older characters, but also make them toggleable for all characters, since I know some people get annoyed by the voicelines we already have and avoid those characters because of it.
Drat, beat me to it. Seconded and well said sir 🤘😁🤘
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932308#Comment_3932308
There's nothing inherently wrong with any kind of tunneling. However, I feel its just poor sportsmanship and lame to hard tunnel someone out of the game early just for the sake of hard tunneling. I personally do not do this even though I accept not doing so will lower my chances at success. We are all playing the game to have fun, and I am not out to make anyone else's game experience a miserable one.
Pretty much exactly how I feel on it. 😅
It's one of the reasons I main Pig, since she is probably the only killer with a built in mechanic that actually discourages tunneling. If you chase a head trapped survivor, you pause their timer, thus you are actively going against the pressure the RBT gives you. 😁
I suppose the short version of all of the above, is while I don't tend to tunnel myself (I tend to play more for fun than kills and am probably one of the few players who still gives hatch), I do also hold the opinion that expecting the killer not to tunnel when you serve up a teammate like an hors d'oeuvres is wishful thinking, and I wish more survivors would consider that before they unhook me 🥺
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931874#Comment_3931874
I only have one definition of tunneling - going after someone who has just recently gotten off hook that has not done anything to progress the objective or help their team and focusing entirely on that person even if therre are other opportunities to go after other players.
The moment that person starts healing another survivor, starts working on a gen, starts to try to bodyblock - ANYthing that isn't trying to gtfo and reset themselves, then they are fair game. Also, if someone else has gotten hooked after they got unhooked, they are also fair game, as you clearly went after someone else.
A fair enough definition and one I agree with, however I suppose the follow up question is do you consider tunneling a problem in any instance? Or is tunneling fine at all times? Or is it somewhere in between? Cause thats effectively the important point we're debating about and is the reason I make the distinction.
I play mostly SoloQ survivor (apparently) and I personally consider opportunistic tunneling fair game. I believe a very important skill on Survivor is to play the macro game and put the killer into difficult macro choices. For example if I have a survivor that is on hook, or I know where a very important gen is about to pop, I will ensure I take the killer away from that objective, even if that means running to a less safe set of tiles to do so. Effectively I'm treating my hook state as a resource to exchange when the team needs it. I have even been known to deliberately "screw up" my looping or run into a dead zone to make me a more enticing target, to ensure that the killer doesn't leave me and return to hook to tunnel.
This is why I make the distinction between opportunistic tunneling and hardcore tunneling, and why I don't see opportunistic tunneling as a problem at all. If I as a survivor make tunnelling a difficult decision for the killer, they are far less likely to tunnel due to the risk that it entails... and I consider this a part of the game.
Following this mentality I have found that I very rarely see low tier killers tunneling... it is simply far too costly for them to do so. I have seen high tier killers also don't tunnel often with this play style because even for them, you can still make it a reasonable risk... of course taking them somewhere where you're gonna get downed fast is less effective vs. these killers so naturally it's all a big game of weighing it up... but you get the point.
@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931874#Comment_3931874
Thats true. One of my regular SWF survivors is super hung up on the idea, that right now the killer role is strong enough to always go for 12 hooks, so anything else is "skill issues" and "what an a******! He is targeting that Feng again!", when in reality that killer is ping ponging between two survivors. I always try to give some insight into the killer role and how the killer probably sees the match right now, ie two gens already gone, two others openly worked on, a third probably in some far off corner of the map, etc. and that he just can't effort to spread hooks and chase each one of us individually, but to some players this is already playing "unfun". So you will never get all players onboard, someone will always have a somewhat different definition, while also calling the things the sameway as you do.
Many survivor players really don't understand the kind of pressure that 4 healthy survivors pose to the killer. It doesn't matter if you are on deathhook or never hooked, you can still churn out gen pressure like everyone else and my the midgame, some survivor has to bite the bullet, or the pressure is just too much for any killer to withstand (unless they got an extremely secure 3 gen, but even that won't hold forever).
The big thing is that even outside of this situations tunneling isn't discouraged and it even works at 5 gens. Yeah, if you got the opportunity to tunnel someone out at 5 gens, then the MMR fluked and/or the survivor massively missplayed, but it occasionally happens that you jump right in the middle of their gen-repair party, hit left and right and down them in quick succession. In that case the honorable thing to do is not to tunnel the first unlucky one, but to keep up the pressure while chasing someone new.
Had nothing to add, just wanted to 🤘😁🤘
I too have a friend who plays survivor only, and love him as I do, he amuses me sometimes with the vitriol he levys at the killer in scenarios where to me it was a perfectly reasonable action for the killer to take... and tontake any other action would benthe killer throwing the game...
He has played killer 5 times and concluded its too easy... so I know the pain of explaining that perspective well xD
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Juuuuuuust gonna slip this under the bus seat... while we're at it...
@UndeddJester said:
Fellow forum affectionados… I need your help in raising awareness for the good of all Pig kind! Please take time out of your day to upvote and comment on this issue…
Amanda is great, her fanbase is very loyal… and we are happy to call ourselves Pig mains no matter what… but there are some undeniable shortcomings with the SAW license in DBD… things that really need to change for the better!
Hello Zepp theme worked into all Pig audio
The standard DBD theme, chase and terror music is a cool jam, but SAW has very iconic music that would be amazing to see in DBD. This fan made version is incredible, and something that any Pig main would adore:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUJ3uT-MsoE
There is so much potential for a truly kick ass theme to be woven throughout all interactions with the Pig, that would make any SAW/Pig Main wilt…
Shawnee Smith to VA lines
The sounds of the Pig are great, the roar, the squeal when she gets tagged by pallets, we love these things dearly... however some voice lines for the Pig would be really cool, particularly Shawnee's iconic "Game Over" when a survivor dies of a head pop would be excellent.
We wouldn't need to many lines, Pig doesn't come across as overly chatty, but just odd lines now and again would be very welcome 😉
Shawnee herself has expressed interest and willingness to provide her voice, and with her recent re-addition to the SAW films, it's something we'd all love to see!
Unique Animations
Amanda is canonically 5 ft 3 in (160cm) and 107lbs (48.5 Kg). This has key plot implications in the films because although we know Amanda is Jigsaw's Apprentice, it doesn't make sense for someone as small as Amanda to be able to put full grown, unconscious dead weight men (or women bigger than her) into Jigsaw's various contraptions. We see her struggling to move people at various points, and this is what introduces Hoffman as the second Apprentice to Jigsaw to continue his work after SAW 3.
It would be great to have this detail honoured in DBD and give Amanda unique pick up and carry Animations that would have her drag survivors and hook them using a mechanism rather than just carrying them with 1 arm. The animation timings and transitions I would propose would be something like:
- Pickup 1: Stand to right of survivor and bend down, grab waist with left hand and lift survivor to waist height. - Instead Amanda will use her left hand to grab the waist and right to grab their left shoulder. She will pull towards her and roll them to onto their butt (sitting up). As she does this her face shifts from looking down at the survivor to looking forward.
- Pickup 2: Throw left hand under and catch survivor, lift survivor up on shoulder - As the survivor sits up from being rolled over, transition her left hand to grab the survivors left shoulder, and have Amanda step to the survivor to brace herself. Amanda is already facing forward and thus is subject to being blinded as normal.
- Stuns: Being blinded, pallet/decisive strike/head on stunned - the Pig let's go and is stunned as normal, the survivor rolls quickly to their feet, arriving in the same place and timeframe as they are usually when dropped of the shoulder.
- Carry: Moving with the survivor on shoulder - the Survivor is kept close to Amanda's left leg, and she walks with an action similar to Hillbillies limp to sell that she is dragging the survivor. Her right hand is free to attack as normal.
- Hook: Throwing survivor off shoulder onto the hook, Survivor writhes on the hook in pain before starting the summoning/sacrifice animations - The hooks for Amanda are on a chain and the survivor is instead pushed toward the hook as Amanda grabs the hook with her right hand, pulls it down quickly to jam the hook in their shoulder. The writhing animation is played out as the survivor is dragged via a ratchet up onto the hook.
Head/Neck/Mask Model Cleanup
I first want to say, I adore Pig, and she looks awesome in pretty much all her skins… however the model for Pig is a little dated, and shows some clear signs of early shortcuts back from the games infancy. A lot of the masks don't fit very well with other cosmetics, and the reason for this is her models are built is a way to conceal the jankiness of her model. Each individual cosmetic set looks great, but when you start mixing and matching them, the covers ups become clearer.
When you compare the masks to each other from the front, the relative size and dimensions of each mask is quite jarringly different (though mostly they still look good):
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/QF7A95X5VYJ0/front-second-chance-heads.gif
However from the side the issue is a little more clear. You can see Amanda's neck is literally horizontal and kinda long/unnatural looking. With the correct Amanda's Rebirth skinset, it's hard to notice cause of the cloak. The base skin is still decent cause its got a hood but if you take the Rebirth and Second Chance combo… it's pretty blatant and hard to ignore (which is a shame cause from the front, this combo looks pretty awesome as shown above).
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FUICG9C4T3W4/pig-neck.png
The other skins tend to cover this up with jackets and/or hair, but her stooped and overly long neck is a problem hidden through all her skins. It would be nice to get her model cleaned up a little so that all the skin combos can fit together nicely… especially her base skin head… that thing is HOOGE!
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/O7T93PEO8C99/pig-mask-side.gif
Hand Model Cleanup
I have a feeling Pig's hand model is the byproduct of short-cutting a model elsewhere. I would guess Huntress offhand… The thing is her hands are fine for a man, or a large muscular woman… however Amanda is quite petite, and it looks really odd to see these large man like hands/sausages on the ends of my little Piggy arms…
If you compare her to Rin, Sadako, and Adriana, all characters that are similar size to Amanda (check it in the menu), her hands are HUGE! They looks fine as hands.. but they aren't a small woman's hands, and more modern characters have been done a lot better in this department… It'd be really nice to see Mandy's hands get redone properly and fit her correctly.
I realise these are fists a lot of the time, but even on her unclenched hands, her palms are so wide!
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/71SO7LZG1FQG/hand-comparison.png
Working BOOP counter charm
A point animation performed by a survivor within 4m of the Pig is tallied on counter and displayed on a charm. The counter could look similar to the time on her Jigsaw boxes. Trust me:
Pig mains while continuing to not having these things:
To conclude, all of these things would be amazing to see on Amanda. I know she is a long in the tooth character for DBD now, and probably not pulling in the big revenue on new characters anymore…. but I, and any other pig main would be so happy to see to these changes come in and really bring Amanda to life…
She is such a cool character already, and this would just make her perfect…. no matter if you nerfed to the floor (plz don't)… I'd still play her ^🐽^
Without them, we can't help but look on and think:
https://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/43400000/Amanda-Young-saw-43419389-500-281.gif
"It's all bullshit. It's all a ######### lie. And I'm just a pawn in your stupid games..."
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Always amuses me what people call "tunneling" in these discussions. My personal definition is split between opportunistic tunneling and hardcore tunneling.
Opportunistic Tunneling refers to instances where the killer targets a survivor that makes logical sense given the events if the trial... such a survivor is unhooked while another is looping near the hook or running to the hook while in chase, unhooks while the killer still hasn't had time to leave the area yet, and when previously hooked survivors don't make themselves scarce and keep pressuring generators in dangerous areas. These instances of tunneling are perfectly fair and reasonable, and a byproduct of *ahem*... overly optimistic survivor play and just general good attention being paid in the trial.
Hardcore Tunneling refers to instances where the killer targets the same survivor relentlessly, regardless of context, and will actively drop chases and leave slugs in order to return to hook and focus out a player. The distinction is that hardcore tunneling will drop whatever they are doing and pursue the tunnel, even if it's quite a significant gamble to do so. These gambles are mitigated significantly by certain killers with high map mobility, and so the argument can be made this is the best strategy to use on those killers, however I would argue playing such a killer in the first place does a lot to skew your DBD fundamentals. After all, why worry about M1 gameplay at all if you intend to keep playing Nurse? It's the same with gen and survivor tracking... if you don't need those skills to succeed, your ability in them will naturally wane. The point is hardcore tunneling on a less mobile killer will often backfire and put you in an even more lost position than you were before.
As such, when certainly discourage a new killer from hardcore tunneling to learn how to exert map control withoit it... and would also discourage veterans from it, even if playing a killer who has the mobility to get away with it... just so you stay in practice.
Opportunistic tunneling however... that's fair game to my mind... in some ways it's your duty to capitalise on opportunistic tunneling... otherwise survivors will never learn that unhooking in 10s is bad 😁
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931377#Comment_3931377
Having exactly 12 searches every game, just makes her weaker against SWFs.
SWFs can count the total number of searches done so far, and if the last trap is a low number, then the survivors know it’s not a high priority, and they can do other things with a trap on their head (like repairing generators), because it will be easy to get the trap off when they want to.
True enough, but that door swings both ways. The most deadly pattern for Pig is the 1-3-4-4 pattern, and a good Pig pays very close attention to especially that first head trap.
If you get a 1 box search on your first head trap, that means your next 3 are long head traps, and if you can build up a lot of pressure (such as a hooked survivor and a slugged survivor) while that head trap is active, you know that the only person who can come for that unhook or pick up that slug is the 4th survivor, with all the problems that come of being the last remaining survivor.
If the headtrapped survivor comes for the unhook or slug, they run a very strong risk of getting caught out to a head pop, especially if you have tampered timer and/or the gears add-ons.
Now the reverse situation isn't ideal, however the hope would be you can build decent pressure/get a strong head start while the first survivor is occupied and you're 3vs1 for that time. The first head trap is also a bit deceptive, since people are usually a little blasé about the first head trap, tending to heal and be a little more nonchalant about its timer, which can create opportunities to force that player out early.
Obviously we're still talking about Pig at end of the day. She is weak overall... but she has a lot of tricks up her sleeve, and even strong players who underestimate her can come a cropper if they don't pay attention.
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@Elan said:
Stat fact… removing traps among survivors give Pig 9mins of them not doing gens across match, no add ons, no extra traps.
Not that it really needs saying, but that's factually false, as that assume that's survivors spend the full 150s of active pig traps searching boxes and get the traps off at the last second each time. (This would actually be 10 minutes)
On a typical 4 search headtrap at a relatively leisurely pace to account for sneaking to avoid Pig, I would guesstimate the time left on an immediately off hook triggered headtrap, unimpeded by Pig interrupting, would have about 30s or so left on the timer (and I believe I'm high balling that). This would mean about 30 seconds per box search as a reasonable average to me. 12 seconds to search the box, 18 seconds to reach each box undetected.
Pig has 12 searches randomly distributed between her head traps, which means at 30s a kick, her slowdown equates to about 6 minutes overall... and as stated, this is when highballing the expected run/search time of each box.
So I'd guess her average slowdown is about ~5-6 mins if she gets all her traps out.
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As a Pig main, your big problem is this isn't far removed from Chucky, since his dash is 8m/s, and Pig dash is easier to use, on no cooldown, and with RBTs included... so tbh you can't buff her dash much further without making Pig obnoxiously overwhelming.
Pig is an awkward character to buff, because all aspects of her kit feed into each other, so a buff to her ambush is a buff to her RBT pressure by proxy. A buff to her stealth/crouch movement is a buff to her ambush/RBT pressure. You get the point.
Her ambushes biggest issue is that people can leave tile while she crouches. At the start of the trial when all the pallets are up, it is incredibly effective to just throw pallet and Hold W to stall her from getting going... if you get a early down and head trap out, you're then on the board and you're a solid threat for the rest of the game and Pig is mostly fine... but if that first down takes too long... you can rolled hard...
I haven't really got a great idea for how you can correct this issue tbh. Largely when I create builds on Pig, the focus is trying to mitigate this early game problem as much as possible. If Pig started at base with 1 head trap out at the start of the trial, she'd be MUCH stronger... but in the same breathe she hasn't done anything to earn that pressure... so it doesn't feel like a fair buff...
However that's my thinking on how to buff Pig... Pig is fine once you get the ball rolling... the problem is... getting the ball rolling, and that's to my mind the best direction for a buff.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931003#Comment_3931003
But there's no indicator telling your team that you are going for the box. For example. Its the problem of saving someone on hook. If you go to save someone on hook, but someone else is already going, then you are just wasting time. You need to be able to tell your team what you are doing.
Well that's not 100% true. There isn't a direct indicator, but there is process of elimination.
The HUD tells you who is on gens, who is healing and who is in chase. As a SoloQ player your assumptions are that a player not doing any of these things is running to the Box/Hook. There are only so many actions a player can take, and you can usually interpret player actions quite effectively just by paying attention to the HUD.
On occasion obviously this does result in some crossed wires/confusion that makes for inefficiencies or blunders, but for the vast majority of instances you can guess pretty effectively what other players are doing. I always try to ensure a gen repair ring is on the HUD at all times. Even if you SHOULD be the one to go for the box, if you don't see any healing or gen repairing on the HUD... stick to the gen... and this stance has served me very well as a soloQ queue player.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930821#Comment_3930821
"Half sensible team"
There's the problem, the game is designed in such a way that you are supposed to work together, but the game also doesn't give you any method of actually doing that outside of being a SWF in discord. Thus the eternal balance problem occurs. The concept of SWF breaks so many things in this game it is unbelievable.
Heheheh truth... though I still maintain as a not even high level and mostly SoloQ player... dealing with the Box is just common sense...
Just using your HUD tells you all you need to know... and it's really not hard to handle even without comms... Though in the same breathe the older I get, the more I'm beginning to think that "common sense" is a bit of a misnomer, and isn't actually common at all 😖😵💫🥴
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930821#Comment_3930821
For me, at least it's the difference in relying on your team. (Not that I "hate" the box, but I do like it less than a hat).
Pig hat is almost entirely on you. Sure, your team can activate it, but it's basically just slowdown on you and pressure to do something other than gens until it's removed.
Pinhead's box, on the other hand, can completely screw you over. If your team just ignores it while you're in chase, that's going to cut your chase short.
And I can't count how many times this happens: "ok, I'm on a gen and so is Kate, Sable is in chase, and Meg is probably going for the box… Meg? Chain hunt starts... Dammit Meg".
So I suppose the easiest way to describe it is that the chain hunt isn't the problem, it's that efficiently countering it requires teamwork and communication. Neither of which is a core feature of the game by default.
Yeah that's fair...
I guess it's just one of those things where is baffles me how SoloQ struggles with it. There have been times I'm on Death Hook, and no one is doing the box for like 60s of the chain hunt, which forces me to do it... and just can't understand how anyone can be so oblivious in regards to solving the box... if you see a player solve the box a single time... surely you can get it?
It's the same thing as insta-unhooking a death hook player under the killers nose... it's like a level of stupid that I just cannot understand how anyone could be unable see that it's a bad idea at this point in the games life cycle...
Like how many times do you need to put your hand on a red hot stove before you learn not to touch it? 😅
Although, with that said, who doesn't prefer a party hat?
^🐽^ 🥳
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930848#Comment_3930848
Oops. I didn't know. :)
Hehehehe 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Might be Security Breach actually... I can't remember... whichever the one is that you make friends with Freddy Fazbear and he helps you through the game...
That game hurt my soul... it was like the game was actively taking the little bit of horror integrity FNAF had left and beat the tar out of it... 😭
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930830#Comment_3930830
If you disliked it at FNAF 3, you won't like how Sister Location ended up.
Maaaaaaaan... why you do dis? I'm actively trying to scrub that game from my brain 😩😩😩😩
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@radiantHero23 said:
As a Pig main, this sounds interesting.
Are we losing our "Best Slowdown in the Game" monikor though? ;🐽;
I do hope the power is good... I've been watching Markiplier's play throughs of FNAF 1-3 to genuinely give the series a shot and build up some hype for myself....
FNAF 1, I kinda lost appreciation for just how good FNAF was. That game is by far the best of the series... well thought out resource management game that makes losing sight of one off camera very unnerving. It doesn't rush you, and as such keeps the mechanics a little tricky to figure out. This encourages you to make mistakes that keeps the tension with a slowly ramping difficulty. Sure once you optimise it it isn't that exciting, but horror games rarely are after you master them and can see the strings, so I still rate FNAF 1.
FNAF2 takes a bit of a dip... the premise is the same but its just not as well put together as the original... silly mechanics that combat each other, where its all about correct input fast enough for whatever happens... its much harder than FNAF1 so you are forced to optimise it early, and at that point it becomes like a game of Patty Cake... its Ok... but not as good as the first game. I stopped watching 9 years ago at FNAF 2...
FNAF3... I finally decided to watch this playthrough as the introduction of Springtrap... I was hoping this would be the last good one in the series (cause the rest certainly sucked hard). After giving it my best shot... I hate this game…
It at least was an attempt at something different, but I got so annoyed watching it with its random cheap hallucinations and crap jump scares (seriously ######### is Springtrap doing in these jump scares!?). Like yes I jump, buts thats mostly cause of the sound... its jump scares aren't earned, they are just annoying... and the general irritation of this system reset mechanic with the clunky need to turn your head is such an artificial difficulty amplifier... even given I wasn't even playing it, the game is just annoying to me... I genuinely wonder how the hell anyone rates it... I can only rrally guess that people love it for the easter eggs and insight into the lore it gives, because outside of that... I've got nothing 😒
So I hope the power is good in DBD... Despite my disdain for the series, I REALLY hope the power is good... because man... watching FNAF 3 did the opposite of hype me up.
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@Pulsar said:
Depends on what it is. I don't think people mind Pig's Boxes but Pinhead's Box is almost universally hated.
Which is crazy to me...
I've never really understood why people struggle with the box so much... Pinhead Box is really quite easy to play around with a half sensible team... just need someone with the lowest hooks to grab it perioidcally and run to a place with safety nearby to solve it and problem is solved. Either he teleports, in which case you loop him as you would normally, or he doesn't and you either end the chain hunt, or he manually interrupts you... in which case you loop him as you normally would, but with the odd chain to dodge…
I remember getting smashed by Pinhead the first time I played him, but after that I understood his power pretty quick, and barring his nail add-on and some cracked Pinheads with nasty builds, I've been mostly fine with him ever since...
As a Pig main however, I get much more concerned about headtrap timers on Survivor than I do Pinhead boxes... because if the Pig knows her headtrap pattern and a Survivor doesn't pay attention to/understand them, it can put you in some really nasty scenarios...
I get quite scared when I see a good Pig with certain perks/add-ons and I know I'm on a bad trap pattern... or worse, my paste eating thirst Sable teammate insists on getting healed when I know shes on a bad trap pattern. 😶
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Its very unique, and I wouldn't want to just make it an aura perk....
However it's big problem is that even if you detect the killer, and the killer is slow moving enough to effectively leave... you still don't know which way the killer is going because you only got a vague direction indicator a single time.
I might suggest a 2 tiered warning system where:
- When the killer first moves 36 metres of you, get a directional auditory warning and Premonition activates for 10 seconds.
- Once activated receive an auditory warning when you look in the direction of the Killer within a 15°(was 45°) cone and at a maximum range of 36 metres, and Premontion deactivates.
- Premontion goes on cooldown for 60/45/30 seconds.
This would then at least work passively and let you have some idea which way to run.
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Its a careful balance, because the thing that makes Pig interesting is the combination of her Stealth, her Ambush and her RBTs all working together.
Her abilities create a unique set of mind games and macro control, and the strength of each is intrinsically linked. If any part of it becomes overturned, it directly bumps up the snowball power of the other aspects of her kit as well. As some simple examples:
- Stronger ambush means shorter chases, which in turn means getting head traps out faster and greater pressure on headtrap timers to increase RBT lethality.
- More lethal RBTs means survivors have stronger time constraints on all actions, which in turn means taking riskier paths/decisions that are at more risk of being caught out by Pigs stealth.
- Better movement during stealth means greater map presence and lower downtime, amplifying the pressure of RBTs and increasing chances of early hits and eventual downs with her ambush.
What makes Pig certainly my favourite killer is her ability to turn the game into an effective 3vs1 and increasing your ability to predict survivor movement, the need to dynamically adapt startegy based on identified pig box patterns, combined with the mind games surrounding her decent but not infallible ambush and her hard to see crouch/stand up m1 mind games.
If not careful, if any aspect of her kit becomes overtuned, that bleeds into every aspect of her kit, and kinda kills off what makes her interesting by making the skill of capitalising on RBT trap pressure simple and effortless. E.g. if she had a Chucky level ambush, then her slowdown of RBTs becomes obnoxiously oppressive by virtue of the pressure she can exert via the 3vs1 gameplay of her RBTs, so your need to actually track RBT progress and predict survivor movement isn't needed due to the passive strength your ambush would give you.
I'd personally like box auras to return, but hit the effectiveness of scream builds, since it is quite important for the survivor predicition element of her power, not having them means you have to learn the spawns, and is just an unnecessary accessibility issue for new Pig players. Me and @radiantHero23 and the rest of the Pig crew have different opinions on how to nerf Screams, but the 2 most commonly tossed up ideas were between:
- Don't allow head traps to pop while still searching a box.
- Interrupting a search box causes that box to regress instead of start from 0.
Both would resolve the issue by not making constant screams an instant death with nasty combos like Tampered Timer and Crate of Gears. As long as you're on the final search, you will often still make it...
However all things considered, the loss of box auras was a preferred sacrifice not to have that 30s timer increase.... so many people arguing in that PTB didn't understand how badly that 30s nukes any and all of her hard earned RBT pressure that it was honestly scary... 😵💫
In any case, any buffs and nerfs to the Pig must be very carefully thought out, because unlike other multi power killers, every single buff/nerfs knocks on every aspect of her kit... she does need some kind help in the early game... the first 60-120s of the trial heavily determines how the trial is gonna go... but buffing that specific aspect of her kit without going overboard elsewhere is quite tricky. 🐷
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@Twiggsy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930021#Comment_3930021
Legion would need massive duration buffs though for frenzy since we're switching him to a pure tracking killer from a homing killer since this would severely hurt him
For sure it'd hurt him. I'd be tempted to give Legion duration and speed buffs to compensate, but ita undeniable that Legion needs curbing in this mode.
I mean this is the tale that is as old as time... the fundamental issue of balance in DBD, or any game, is that there is only so strong you can allow simple to play killers/characters to be.
In a hypothetical world where Legion is as strong as Blight, who would you rather play? The character you have to spend many hundreds, even thousands of hours learning maps and tiles to score hits reliably at every loop? Or do you play the character where you just roam around, get in power and score basically unchallenged hits that you can learn to a high level in maybe 50 hours? If their powers are equivalent there is literally 0 reason to ever play Blight in this hypothetical world.
We see this already with Hillbilly, who I would argue requires more skill than Blight to play well. Hillbilly is still one of the hardest killers to play even after his buffs... but his buffs mean he has the power where he can hang with Blight, he is debatably similar in strength, but who do you see more often? The answer is... Blight, because of the 2 of them, Blight is easier to play. So if one character is easier to play but similar strength, then your higher skilled characters pick rate is massively reduced.
All of this is to say... Legion in their current 2vs8 state is very easy to play AND gets high value... it is so easy to get value in fact that the Legion player barely has to play DBD at all and outperforms most other killers in 2vs8... and this is the issue with him in this mode... you need to significantly strip his effectiveness back to make it meaningful to play him.
I'm not gonna say my suggestion is a perfect solution, but the goal of any 2vs8 Legion suggestion needs to be that Legion needs to be harder to play to attain the value he is currently enjoying... and short of a complete power rework, denying his guaranteed info/injuries seems to me to be the only way to bring him in line with the rest of the roster.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
Hello, fellow Pigs 🐷
The charm bundle in the store this week is dedicated to the SAW Chapter!
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/188KL6ALIRDH/1000026265.jpg
I hope you are all doing well 💗
Niioce... that cassette tape player though...
I'm doing well thanking you! Nearly finished my quest of prestige 6 on everyone, and only have 3 and a half tomes left until completion... DBD life is good...
Do need Pig mask Meg back though... discovered I don't have it 🥺
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@CountOfTheFog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930144#Comment_3930144
I never see anything in the description about 40% skill check bonus.
I thought hitting a good skill check just keeps the generator repairing with no extra progress whereas a great skill check adds 1% additional progress. Am I correct or confused on this 🤔
Aye it's a hidden stat that is surprisingly important. Base is 8% chance, Toolbox is a 40% chance. 😁
Only place I know it to be listed is here:
Your understanding is correct, great skills checks give 1% additional progress.
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@crogers271 said:
Well skill checks are a big deal, but taking those out
To my understanding, the faster repair speed depletes the charges faster. You are reading 32/16 as seconds, not charges.
Perhaps a clearer way to think about it:
Commodious: Until you get to 32 charges, you work at 1.5 times speed.
Engineer's: Until you get to 16 charges, you work at 2 times speed.
So the Commodious let's you get 32 charges done (or 35.56% of the gen) in 21.333 seconds.
The Mechanics let's you get 16 charges done (or 17.78% of the gen) in 8 seconds, then the next 16 charges take a second a piece.
So to get to 32 charges with the Commodious takes 21.333 seconds, while it takes 24 seconds with the Mechanics.
I'm exhausted so my math might be off, but here's a thread on the topic from a year ago from @UndeddJester.
Aye the consumption rate is tied to the repair speed. Maths looks good to me.
I actually worked oit you meant Engineer'sToolbox instead of Mechanics Toolbox after I'd already typed this out... so for sake of interest and to push my own agenda of removing the Mechanics Toolbox... here is the Mechanics Toolbox, which is supposedly similar value to the Commodius... despite losing to it on literally every single front... 😒
Mechanics Toolbox - 1.75 c/s for 16 charges.
Base: 16 charges in 9.143 seconds. +74 charges remaining = 83.143s to complete a gen.
Add-ons: 36 charges in 20.571 seconds. +54 charges remaining = 74.571s to complete a gen.
BNP+AO: 28 charges in 16 seconds. +62 (- 10 for BNP = 52 charges remaining = 68s to complete a gen.
Streetwise: 45 charges in 25.714s. +45 charges remaining = 70.714s to complete a gen.
@UndeddJester said:
So I've long heard that Commodius toolboxes are better than Engineer's toolboxes from many sources, and I've just accepted it as fact.
I created a build recently centered around Scavenger and my logic was, if I take the toolbox that expends charges faster, I can take a full set of charge addons, expend my Toolbox quicker and start getting Scavenger stacks to get it back... the value probably balances out...
So I started doing the maths vs.the Commodius Toolbox... and it doesn't add up, the Engineers Toolbox comes out better at base... can someone tell me where I'm going wrong please?
- Generator: 90 charges
- Repair Speed: 1 c/s
- Commodius: 1.5 c/s for 32 charges
- Engineers: 2 c/s for 16 charges
As far as I understand, charges in toolboxes = charges on gens. So with that in mind, with full charge add-ons, we add 20 charges. Streetwise for efficiency interest effectively adds 25% (x1.25) extra charges on the total.
The formula for generator repairs is a simple:
- Time = Charges / Charges_per_second
Commodius Toolbox
Base: 32 charges in 21.333 seconds. +58 charges remaining = 79.333s to complete a gen.
Add-ons: 52 charges in 34.667 seconds. +38 charges remaining = 72.667s to complete a gen.
BNP+AO: 44 charges in 29.333 seconds. +46 (-10 for BNP) = 36 charges remaining = 65.333s to complete a gen.
Streetwise: 65 charges in 43.333s. +25 charges remaining = 68.333s to complete a gen.
Engineer's Toolbox
Base: 16 charges in 8 seconds. +74 charges remaining = 82s to complete a gen.
Add-ons: 36 charges in 18 seconds. +54 charges remaining = 72s to complete a gen.
BNP+AO: 28 charges in 14 seconds. +62 (- 10 for BNP = 52 charges remaining = 66s to complete a gen.
Streetwise: 45 charges in 22.5s. +45 charges remaining = 67.5s to complete a gen.
Conclusion
At base, yes the Commodius is better, but with full charge add-ons, it loses to the Engineer's Toolbox, and of course the Engineer's Toolbox gets its charges down faster, so if you want to finish off a generator quickly due to time pressure, the Engineer's is better too. Commodius wins out on BNP but again the difference is negligible....
Is my maths wrong somewhere? Or have I misunderstood something? Plz correct me if I'm wrong...
Also... if I'm right... Engineer's Toolbox with full add-ons with Scavenger... it's kinda the sauce.
The 40% skillcheck bonus is a really big deal for the Commodius with several perks too. Anything like Hyperfocus, Stake Out, Fast Track and Bardic Inspiration is actually very solid with Commodius Toolbox, and contrary to popular opinion, you actually don't want Prove Thyself with it, since repair speed means less skillchecks. Efficiency from Streetwise meanwhile, effectively translates to 25% extra charges, which gives you even more skillcheck value.
Whereas perks like Blast Mine, Flashbang, Chemical Trap, Wiretap, Potential Energy and Scavenger do want repair speed cause you want to get their value prepared faster... where you might get better value from an Engineers Toolbox.
Mechanics Toolbox is a poor man's Engineer's Toolbox... delete Mechanics toolbox from the game! (And worn tools while we're at it)
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929195#Comment_3929195
Yo dude, this is poetry. This is exactly the truth of this game. Most Killers play one game, S tiers play another, and the issue is there's Killers in general that just do not play this macro game or have to learn the same skill around handling tiles.
This is why lower tiers get wrecked against really and I mean REALLY good Survs, who are vanishingly rare anyway. It's not that their kits are bad or weak in any way. It's that their kits are average and balanced, but the upper tiers just simply do not have kits that play by the same rules. They have been powercrept by something 95% of Killer choices can only dream of.That's unfair, skews balance, and isn't fun. It cheapens the game. It messes up balance for the rest of the roster and directly leads to terrible nerfs that never needed to happen. If you can just learn the "skill" of spamming a power and making all loops unsafe as Blight, why bother learning anyone else or any macro skill? Why bother ever improving as a Killer when characters like Nurse are all you need? You won't need this skill because you will never play any of the "bad Killers".
Hehehehe cheers 🤘😁🤘
PixelBush recently coined the phrase "Dash Slop", referring to every new killer over the past year being some derivative of highly mobile dash killer in one way shape or form... and I've kinda taken a liking to it 😅
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@Twiggsy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929900#Comment_3929900
Then trade his killer instinct and give him back scratch marks and blood pools back
Agreed, this would make them much more interesting to play as and against. I've not really got a good idea yet how to resolve it... I don't believe generally in nuking killers... and I like and defend Legion in 1vs4, cause in 1vs4 you do get to actually loop against Legion after a point, they can't just spam power forever...
However in 2vs8 there is literally nothing to do against Legion when they turn up... unless you get a pallet stun (which seems absurdly difficult to time sometimes) and Legion has to actually play DBD for a short time... for the most part he just runs around tagging people with little you can do to stop it.
Maybe some halfway solution exists, such as killer instinct on on the 1st, 4th and 7th hits, or Legion needs 4 hits before they get killer instinct, but gains a partial duration increase to compensate.
However in their current form the Legion player literally just turns their brain off and spams power, getting free pressure with absolutely 0 effort. Killers should be stronger in 2vs8 fine... but they should still have to actually play DBD still.
I similarly take issue with Wraith, since he has so many of his great add-ons basekit, it kinda removes most of the counterplay available to survivors against him... but Wraith still actually has to think and pay attention at least. Legion is just brain in hand and autopilot the whole game... if someone made a bot of Legion I probably couldn't tell the difference.
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I'm almost at the point of suggesting taking away Legions killer instinct from Feral Frenzy, or remove deep wound from their kit... something that totally knee caps them, cause their pick rate is through the roof.
Legion's super lazy and 0 skill 2vs8 gameplay creates so many unfun combos and facilitates so many lame play styles that ensures facing them is almost alway obnoxious...
And killers need more help against the insane gen speeds survivors can crank... but such a change cannot come whilesoever Legion is there.
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Just to offer so help:
Got this accidently playing Ghost Face, Clown with PWYF is also good for this one usually, or ofc T1 Myers.
Blinding does also count with regards to blinding while the killer is hooking if BGP and all else fails.
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Fat fingered the post comment button... plz ignore...
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@Coffeecrashing said:
The tome challenges were toxic to solo q survivors.
It’s impossible for solo q to feel like a team, when one of the survivors is sandbagging their entire team to complete a tome challenge.
If we want to bridge the gap between solo q and SWF, then we need to get rid of the stuff that encourages survivors to be selfish anti-team individuals.
This is only true at mid-high MMR where players on both sides are playing the strongest killers, add-ons and perks to try and outpace each other... which let's face it, if you aren't someone who consistently plays hardcore, sweaty, you are unlikely to be paired with those players.
A significant number of the player base,likely the majority, aren't playing super serious, aren't bringing syringes, BNPs and commodius toolboxes against Pain Res, Grim Ermbrace and DMS... not taking meta isn't throwing the game inherently, and I think it's harmful to any game to flaunt that idea.
With this in mind, the tomes and challenges encourage you to try new perk combos out, try to find methods of satisfying the challenge without throwing the game. The clue is in the name... it's a challenge. You take additional conditions on the trial while still attempting to win...
It makes what would otherwise be a stale, repetitive grind fest into a unique puzzle to try and solve. Gotta break 10 totems? OK, take a map with red twine, take Overzealous, Inner Strength, maybe Counterforce vs. TotH and then efficiently break totems for buffs to gen repair and healing speed efficiency. This isn't meta, but it isn't an immediate throw unless at the higher ends of competative play, and it can even come in clutch against killer with a dedicated Hex: Build.
Now that's not a great example, because there are peopel who won't try to use the perks genuinely and naturally in trying to complete challenges while still winning the game... but there are some challenges that can lead you to discover some pretty decent and surprisingly powerful combos that you might otherwise overlook, by virtue of encouraging you to try things, rather than just go along with whatever the most popular streamers and content creators are saying. There is nothing stopping any perk or ability being buffed in future where said totem challenge may not be a throw at all in future.
I don't think it's healthy for the game at all to expect or insist that everyone plays meta... it'd be like saying you have to play Nurse or Blight only on killer, which is of course... silly. People should and do play whatever killer they want, and the same should be true for survivor.
I never get mad at aomeone doing a challenge... Throwing the game to me isn't derived from what perks you take or what challenges you try to complete, it's deliberately getting yourself or your teammates killed with SoH, unnecessary and bad unhooks under the killers nose, or deliberately leading the killers to teammates on gens that I take issue with.
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@lettuchia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927716#Comment_3927716
You really think it's reasonable to expect me to explain every little thing in what I say? There's a difference between saying nothing absolutely nothing and saying less than everything. Hit and run is a problem because it's a lazy strategy that doesn't involve chasing, which is the fun part of the game which everyone agrees with, coincidentally until hit and run is brought up lol.
Yes, legion wraith and sadako are also fundamentally flawed, it doesn't mean anything to me that not many people would agree since not many people actually understand this game well.
Blight has a strong and unique chase power so he's not forced into hit and run like the other killers which literally couldn't be buffed because they have little to no identity outside of it. Nurse, spirit, and wesker literally have no mobility. Unknown doesn't have mobility vs good players that dispell hallucinations frequently. Kaneki should have his free injure removed. Freddy same as blight and he has a long cooldown on his tp. All those killers you mentioned are definitely more challenging than dredge, not debatable whatsoever if they're easier because they absolutely not.
You really think it's reasonable to expect me to explain every little thing in what I say? There's a difference between saying nothing absolutely nothing and saying less than everything.
So now we have some actual points of discussion and I understand YOUR understanding and reasoning behind your opinion. I'm not a mind reader, I COULD vaguely intuit what reasoning you used to reach your conclusion, but there is a good chance I'm wrong. I might even agree with your conclusion, but I might not agree with your reasoning for getting there. You not explaining your stance means I don't correctly understand your perspective, which isn't really gonna help anyone debate on the issue, especially if I feel there is more nuance than what your conclusion presents... so yes, I do expect you to explain the details of what you want to say.
It also seems a little off to condemn people for down voting and not actually offering an argument to debate with you, but also hold the stance you shouldn't have to explain your point... do you want people to debate with you or not?
Hit and run is a problem because it's a lazy strategy that doesn't involve chasing, which is the fun part of the game which everyone agrees with, coincidentally until hit and run is brought up lol. Yes, legion wraith and sadako are also fundamentally flawed, it doesn't mean anything to me that not many people would agree since not many people actually understand this game well.
So to address the points you've raised here,I do agree Hit and Run isnt a fun playstyle... however I wouldn't say Dredge is especially effective at hit and run to the point of being problematic. When he uses his locker teleports, lockers being locked slows his exit from the locker and gives time for survivors to make it to safety. So Survivors do get the opportunity to loop Dredge, since at the very least Dredge needs to get an injury to make the exchange worth his time.
Using his remnant at loops is a difficult to handle tool for Survivors, and this threat means he can go for downs effectively... however you can mind game it and leave the tile to another while Dredge is slowed, it takes good map knowldge (or WoO) to do so, but it can be done. He has to actually commit to chases and gettimg hits if he wants to start getting his Nightfall up, and at some point he has to start committing for hooks, however if he takes too long he has to leave and try to maintain control of the macro the game elsewhere.
This is the same deal with these other killers. Their ability to close out chase is limited, and this is the trade off imposed by the relatively easy first hits of their powers... they can suprise players and get hits easier than they can a Survivor in chase, which comes with a trade off of how effective are the Survivors at healing one another and/or their ability to play injured.
Blight has a strong and unique chase power so he's not forced into hit and run like the other killers which literally couldn't be buffed because they have little to no identity outside of it. Nurse, spirit, and wesker literally have no mobility.
You talk about understanding this game, but Blight is a fundamental problem to DBD, because Blight has the lethality to brute force hits on Survivors at a number of locations, and the "skill" of Blight is learning when you can do so. These hits are what allow him to keep up with the strongest survivor teams, and he still has the map mobility to mostly ignore the macro game, and make it all about the micro.
The S tier killers are basically playing a different game to everyone else. Most other killers have to pay careful mind to the macro of the trial, since they can't brute forces hits at tiles. They need to actually measure up the respective cost of trying to take the time to down survivors. This is why they struggle against top level survivors, because there is no means of scoring a near guaranteed hit efficiently, even if played at max potential. This is why against exceptional survivors these killers tend to get demolished. S tiers on the other hand makes it basically impossible to give killers basekit buffs to help, because these killers also exist.
Also what do you mean Nurse, Spirit and Wesker have no mobility? They certainly have more than well over half the killer cast and they all have cooldown, duration, and/or distance add-ons that let them move significantly more efficiently across the map... and these kinds of add-ons tend to be the more popular add-ons.
All those killers you mentioned are definitely more challenging than dredge, not debatable whatsoever if they're easier because they absolutely not.
I'd agree that Dredge isn't mechanically demanding, he is easy to play from an inputs perspective, however good survivors can handle him pretty easy, and he struggles for an effective answer against them.
Dredge, like many low to mid tier killers, is a bit of a noob stomper. Mistakes by a few less experienced players, or a veteran who makes a mistake, can be very costly for Survivors, but any decently competant players can certainly give him a hard time. He is also very map reliant...
In regards to how much of a "problem" he is, I can admit Dredge isn't flawless (I'd argue Huntress or Hillbilly is probably the best designed killers), but I'd certainly cite any problems Dredge has as not that big a deal, and more of a preference issue than an objective problem on the game.
I mean what would a fix for Dredge hit and run even look like? Longer cooldown on his TP and a stronger dash power to close out chases? Cause it seems to me the only thing that ever constitutes "good design" in DBD is just keep adding different flavours of dash killer. Everyone has to be some derivative of Wesker, otherwise they suck... which needless to say.. is pretty sad if true.
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@BillsWrinklyballs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926751#Comment_3926751
Sure but it has to be something creepy not your usual woman with a spider body. That's not my kind of kink.
Better? (Excuse crude nudity censor)
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
I was watching this Scott Jund video today. I didn’t even realize this was an issue in the game. A few questions:
- Is this still a problem with certain survivors?
- Is it as easy as Scott says it is to fix?
- If so, why haven’t the devs done anything about it for years?
- Yes, Ace and Ada are hell quiet, and Orela is too apparently.
- Scott's assessment simplifies the problem and leaves a lot of stuff out, but yes to provide a simple answer, yes this approach is a valid solution that would be good enough for DBD. I have a proper description below.
- As someone who works as a software development QA engineer, and working currently in audio processing, I have been able to discuss this very problem with highly qualified audio engineers... My conclusion is I honestly can't say why BHVR haven't fixed this issue... I err on the side of giving BHVR the benefit of the doubt, as I myself am not an audio processing engineer and there may be some factor I just don't know about. However unless they clarify the reason why, I have to admit that I'm not aware of any reason this issue couldn't be relatively easily resolved in the manner described.
If you wanna read my full conclusion on this issue, it's available here:
@UndeddJester said:
Hi all!
Probably pointless to dredge this up as likely no one other than me actually cares, but in the spirit of ensuring I'm not passing misinformation, I've continued developing my skills on my audio digital processing journey as part of my work, and do have a much better understanding of it than I did before... so I thought I would share for anyone interested.So regarding opening up a quiet audio file and increasing the gain of the audio signal, the simple up front answer is this is a perfectly valid approach to resolving the issue of quiet audio on most cases, and given the resolution of audio files, most audio files can be scaled quite substantially without any noticeable issues with distortion or artefacts.
The amplitude of the signal goes between 1 and -1, and an audio signal in essense defines the position of the speaker at a particular point in time during playback, in order to produce a sound. When adding gain, a signal that has a particularly sharp peak can hit issues when the peak goes over the limit, which then requires normalising or clamping the signal. This is obviously where the most pronounced issues in audio processing occur.
There is also gain sequencing, which refers to where in the audio pipeline gain is applied.
Part of audio processing pipieline takes the audio input signal, applies param EQ, compression and a limiter to the signal, all of which I only have a high level understanding of, but to give the idea:
- Parametric Equalising changes the volumes of different frequencies to balance the sound, effectively the balance of your treble and bass for the medium you're listening in.
- Compression will reduce the dynamic range of the signal, reducing the difference between the loud and soft sounds to make the audio have a more consistent (and usually more pleasant to listen to) sound.
- A limiter effectively caps the signal with the range, and basically ensures the signal fits within the desired range of the output speakers. You can make a softer limiter to smooth the cut off of the signal, or you can just hard stop a signal over the range. The compressor is a type of limiter, but is more of an artistic clamping of a sound, vs. the limiter which is more a technical make is work within this range change.
Alot of this stuff is feel and experience rather than exact science; and listening to an audio engineer talk about this stuff can be easily summed up as "applying the voodoo".
Regarding the debate in this thread, one thing to bear in mind is the order of operations. If you apply a gain before all these processing steps (the equivalent of applying our gain to the raw audio file in audacity), this changes the equaliser, compression and limiter behaviour away from what it was before. It is most likely fine still, but it will be different to what would be produced from the original signal applying these effects, and then applying the gain post processing.
So the TLDR version, it is very likely that simply boosting the gain in audacity would produce a result that is certainly good enough for DBDs needs... and we're talking differences that would be quite unlikely to be human detectable, let alone noticably worse in quality.
So as to why it hasn't been done, I honestly can't say... but its been interesting to learn about 😁🤘
Have a good one!
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I'm literally playing perma Guide and gen rushing the ######### out of Legion until killers start playing something more interesting.
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@Shroompy said:
- Id do a few things, add more chests to the map and give him the ability to TP and hide in them just like lockers, and if he's hiding in there and a Survivor is close enough he can yoink them inside them to immediately pick them up (similarly to how he can already yoink them if a Survivor is already inside the locker or about to go inside)
@OrangeBear said:
Able to teleport to chests
Hoarder unironically good on Dredge xD
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@I_CAME said:
Legion gotta go. That's my only thought.
2vs8 Legion has this problem for 2vs8 Survivor... Scout, Medic and Escapist aren't very efficient against them, and you get the usual soloQ issue of people don't know how to play against Legion, but with double the number of players who can screw it up.
Normally I like to see 2,2,2,2 for classes and will switch class accordingly... however Legion is so game altering and common you have to assume they are in play... which means you have to mass spam Guide, stay injured and rush the holy hell out of gens.
It's lame to have to play this way every game, and what really sucks is because Legion is so common, when you don't get a Legion and have some room to actually play something more interesting... it's too late, you're already playing the Guide game.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
I think there should be extra locker spawns around objectives when a Dredge is in the trial. There's a handful of maps that are a nightmare for Dredge to play on due to massive locker deadzones.
Have some lockers show up with the same kind of spawning rules as Sadako's TVs (or a similar prop), especially on maps with a small amount of lockers.
This was always my thought, though my only hesitation is Dredge is pretty monstrous on maps like Midwich where he is locker heaven... I'd be a little concerned his great map traversal might be a little toooooo good with this change...
Maybe if they were remnants or special manifest lockers with their own cooldown, or the locks do not break and are always available?
That might be alright.
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@lettuchia said:
Remove him. He's fundamentally flawed by taking bare minimum skill to play and encouraged to hit and run
So many downvotes but only one response which isn't constructive, people really meatride this killer even with what is blatantly zero reasoning huh
While I agree that just downvoting and saying nothing isnt very useful (not a fan of the downvote system and I never use it)... I also just wanna point out that you haven't really said much of anything to justify/substantiate your claim...
"He is fundamentally flawed by taking bare minimum skill to play and be encouraged to hit and run"... skill is its own topic (I'm a believer that skill in DBD is more than just mechanical skill, macro skill, build construction and map knowledge are just as important skills in their own right), but you haven't qualified why hit and run is such a problem to be considered "fundamentally flawed".
Doesn't this also count for Legion? Wraith? Sadako? Are all these killers also fundamentally flawed since they too are taking bare minimum mechanical skill to play? Cause I can't realistically see a justification for gutting Dredge and not all of these killers as well if we follow this line of reasoning; and I think not many would agree these killers are in a position they should be gutted.
Not to mention numerous other killers have the mobility to also play hit and run effectively if they choose to. Blight, Nurse, Spirit, Wesker, Unknown, Ghoul, Freddy, etc, etc. These killers generally have higher lethality so tend to prefer to close out chases instead of play hit and run, but they are absolutely capable of doing so, and while some of them take more skill than Dredge, I'd argue that Spirit, Freddy, Ghoul or Unknown are not really any harder to play than Dredge... debatably easier.
So for any discussion to be meaningful you need to clarify your argument... because without a tangible point, this does sound a little "I don't like Dredge because he can hit and run... so nerf him pl0x", hence likely why you've been ratio'd.
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Hahaha, love some of these builds. I mix up on builds a lot, but I'd say the build I have most fun on is:
Core: -
- Plot Twist
- Tenacity
I love Tenacity, its my favourite perk by a mile, cause it makes being slugged actually fun. Trying to slip away without the killer noticing is actually feasible and fun to try, without recovery halting as you crawl away.
Adding Plot Twist gives you guaranteed value from Tenacity, and gives you a lot of flexibility to split up after unhooks, let's you heal while being very hard to detect/spot by the killer, gives you 2 uses, the latter being like a budget Adrenaline... and comes in strangely useful in a number of quirky situations such as when facing Pinhead chains, Pig Trapped, Oni (no blood), healing and waking yourself up vs. Freddy, healing vs. Sadako while ignoring condemned, ignoring Legion/DeathSlingeror BT Deep Wound, healing during EGC to slow the timer, healing while waiting out broken...
...and if all else fails there is something just hilarious about Plot Twisting in the killers face... it's gotten me hatch a couple of times vs. Killers with a sense of humour xD
Combo 1 for healing yourself theough Broken:
- Vigil
- For the People/Deliverance
Combo 2 if you're really afraid of tunneling:
- Decisive Strike
- We'll Make It
Combo 3 if you're really afraid of slugging:
- Distortion
- We're Gonna Live Forever
Combo 4 if you're a dirt bag with a duo and using PT to go down under pallets (don't do this seriously... it's stupid filthy 🤣):
- Power Struggle
- Flip Flop
And you can pretty much take whatever you want really for your other 2 slots. Exhaustion, Gen Rush, Team Healing support, whatever really.
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@SoGo said:
I'd be relatively fine with the Toolbox and Medkit changes you suggested.
The Key changes seem fine.
The Maps changes seem like an overall nerf tho. Making them only track Gens and Exit Gates makes it so the Rainbow Map is made weaker, while the Green Map is pretty much the same. The maps already depend quite a bit on the Stamp add-ons, since the base range is very small, so making yet another part of them (Totems and Hooks, they shouldn't track killer stuff under any circumstances) an add-on dependant feature feels bad. The inclusion of a Brown Map is good though.
Cheers for the review!
I must admit I was a little stuck for a basic effect on Maps... I settled for 6 auras on the Iri, since that is most gens and/or the gates right at the start... butvyeah, it is a little lacking.
Their main value is of course totems and can really save your butt vs. A hex build... the issue I tend to have with Iri maps is I get so many auras it kinda dilutes whatever purpose it is I'm bringing the map for.
An extra 4m base might be good for the Iri map to justify it's value, but I hesitated adding that... though on reflection that might be a decent buff since totems aren't base for Iri anymore 🤔
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927193#Comment_3927193
The EMP dart, since it only works on survivors with a claw trap, would be able to trigger the exposed status that the claw trap would give.
Ah, so not exposed effects in general.
Hmmm... seems a nerf for this power to me personally, and I'm not convinced it needs a nerf. If you can remove the claw trap and remove the exposed effect that means the survivor isn't injured, thus you must commit to that Survivor, because if you don't, your successful hit on a drone is meaningless...
Whereas before you at least got an injury to perhaps capitalise on later (even as an m1 killer with a regular hit), now you have nothing to show for it at all if you don't get the down. In all other scenarios there is no difference, but in the scenario you don't want to or can't afford to commit to the claw trapped survivor, your trap hit is rendered obsolete... and currently I'm more worried her power will be too weak rather than too strong.
It's also unnecessarily confusing, cause this configuration would be contradictory to the usual application of exposed. Exposed is exclusively used for basic attacks... in this setup we're making a strange exception for SMs attack drone that muddies the definition of exposed... we could hand wave it as an either or situation/double damage power... but I don't really see the value of doing so compared to just applying an injury as it does now.