UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919896#Comment_3919896
I enjoyed reading your thoughts surrounding safaris power. It’s always nice to see a perspective!
Thank you so much!
Question(s)- How do you feel about her spawning out of her Well each trial? 😁 Should this come as an additional teleporting location for her?
- I hope we get another Map Control killer down the road. I enjoy killers with side objectives. Ie. Pig, Sadako, Pinhead, (nemesis?)
- Something that has always bothered me about Sadako. I would like to express it here and get your perspective on it. (Here it goes…while Sadako is demanifested. She flickers in and out at a range of 24 meters in her power. Cool right? While manifested at 24 meters she is STILL visible at the same exact range while NOT in her power. This never made sense to me. I feel like clump of hair should fill this as basekit. She shouldn’t be visible at equal ranges. Am I crazy for thinking this? 🤣?)
This was just stuff I thought of today.
- Hahahah, a well spawn would be so damned cool... I feel it should be added for no other reason than being simply badass xD
- I'd like another taken on this mind of killer. I'm quietly hoping the Skull Merchant rework will get a TCM Grabdpa effect, but also applicable to Conspicuous Actions, with a lower warning and a lingering effect on anyone revealed.
- Only visible manifested while 12m away? Is there even a point demanifesting? I'd be tempted to run Distressing cause noone would know where I'm coming from on gens xD
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920800#Comment_3920800
I think this could be a very healthy way to keep the perk's effect but give Survivors something for it, but it wouldn't make much sense would it? Shouldn't they only get the points if they do blind?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920878#Comment_3920878
I agree with all of these but I'm confused why you're being so aggressive here. I didn't come at you aggressively, and I did read your whole post. It wasn't that long. I only said that maybe it's a good idea to consider that the blind mechanic as a whole, when done repeatedly and excessively, isn't fun for the Killer no matter how fun it is for Survivors. A Killer may similarly find tunnelling quite fun, but Survivors obviously don't. That was it, that's my whole point.
I am not a Killer Main, I play both sides. I currently do play exclusively Killer because I am bored of Survivor, but I played almost only Survivor for a whole year and a half before this because I got bored of Killer. I have thousands of hours in the game. I have played for several years. I am not "a Killer Main", I am a "DBD Main".
Since you seemingly just are looking for things to argue over, and so are others, it's probably time I either block you both or bow out of this thread. I have more than made my point, and more rehashing the same stuff here is useless and stupid.
Assuming not making an ass out of U and Me challenge: Impossible.I think this could be a very healthy way to keep the perk's effect but give Survivors something for it, but it wouldn't make much sense would it? Shouldn't they only get the points if they do blind?
Well all this revised Lightborn is doing is making you immune to the effects of being blinded, instead of what what it does now, which is make you immune to blind period, so we have no interactions whatsoever.
In the fantasy world of DBD, there is basically no difference, the only things that are different are the more meta aspects of the perk regarding how the game representation of being "blinded" is translated to the survivor (the beam narrowing, the blind sound effect playing and the scire event occurring for the survivor... none of which would happen in the "real" world of DBD).
Unlike other beasts of The Fog, you have adapted to light.
As such, I think it makes sense, you are Lightborn, so you have adapted to not be affected by being blinded. So survivors can blind you, but it gives you none of the negative effects.
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Depends on the context, what is this dash meant to do?
Map traversal? Land hits at loops? Smash through pallets and walls? In additon to his whip? A replacement for his whip?
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@Cassiopeiae said:
Funny how even those coordinated Survivor groups you mention—running meta builds and using Discord—still struggle to hit a 50% escape rate, despite being among the top percent of players.
When was the last time we saw incentives for the Killer queue? Or the last time it took less than 30 seconds to find a match as Killer? The reality is that a significant portion of the player base is gravitating toward Killer because, at the moment, playing Survivor has become a frustrating and often miserable experience.
Historically, my playtime has been evenly split—50% Survivor, 50% Killer. Lately, however, I find myself playing Survivor only around 20% of the time, and almost exclusively in SWF. The remaining 80% is spent playing Killer, which speaks volumes about the current state of the Survivor experience.
Of course, some might respond with, 'But Cass, I main Killer and whenever I play Survivor, it’s easy and relaxing.' To that, I’d say: naturally. If you’re a seasoned Killer jumping into a Survivor match and going against a newer Killer who performs worse than the average bot, then yes—it’s going to feel chill. That experience isn’t reflective of the standard matchmaking reality for most players. Those who make such claims should consider putting in a few dozen hours into the Survivor role before making sweeping judgments about it.
Nevertheless, posts like these tend to lose weight when the author hasn't taken the time to personally engage with the aspects they're criticizing. If you're not actively playing both roles and experiencing the current state of the game firsthand, it's difficult to provide meaningful insight.
I'd like to know how much that 69% kill rate on Blight and 67% killrate on Nurse in the top 5% of players factors into that escape rate.
Most people I know on the forums, and most content creators I know at all levels tend to play both in my experience.
People have one side they prefer over another, but most people I know do mix between both sides.
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I still want the effect of Lightborn to be immune to the blind effects instead of being immune to blinds.
Would mean the survivors beam narrows, they still get their score event (and challenges) and the game considers them blind for other effects, but you don't get the blind splash, stunned while carrying, or the lunge being disabled.
It would mean Killer would want some degree of acting blind to not give the game away and keep getting value which would be fun.
It would also have synergy for Shadownborn and Hex: Two Can Play, while also being somewhat countered by Champion of Light and Residual Manifest.
More interactions, much more interesting as a perk, and a much healthier design for future perks and mechanics
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
Yes, both are toxic. Especially if you are playing Kaneki and are slugging the people trying go next cause they don't want to play with you. 🤷♂️
🤣🤣🤣🤣 I not saying he should have done it... but I understand... xD
Personally I will slug, and look at them disappointed for a moment before swinging an m1 back into the trial to say "I'm not a jerk man... help your team out".
Sometimes they rejoin the fray, sometimes they don't, but you can't say I didn't give em a fair shot... and if they decide they're determined to leave, then the gloves come off 😏
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@Deadman7600 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920067#Comment_3920067
probs just a poor decision
The fact it hasn't been corrected yet is equal parts concerning and mystifying 😶😶😶
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As an Addendum thought to the Claw Trap Removal...
Claw Trap Removal 2.0
Instead of having to remove the claw trap and being broken while its attached... How would we feel about the Claw Trap is just permanently attached until healed or downed? Since she has to set up a drone, then successfully hit you with it to access the rest of her kit, this seems like a decent effect to warrant it's use. (Insert mandatory Mangled/Haemorrhage add-ons).
That gives a strong reason to heal vs. Skull Merchant, feeds into her "always watching" lore, and gives her unique tactile strategies on deciding on if she wants to cash in a claw trap, or save it for later.
It gives her elements a bit like Pig, where she can create scenarios where she knows that specific injured survivors can't come for unhooks and alike, as they can't surprise her, meaning other survivors have to make the move instead.
Things like this gives her more macro control, which she feels like she should be good at as a surveillance killer. That might work as a direction for her power/unique traits...
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There is no way to hold a discussion here.
I've tried Kaneki, and even as a controller player I've had numerous scenarios where I've felt like there was a absolutely nothing a survivor could have done to avoid a hit. Even with me fumbling my controls often and screwing up repeatedly, I could pretty much undo even horrible mistakes very easily and continue the pressure on Survivors. They had to play a LOT better than me to win exchanges, and every minor mistake they made put them in a bad position against me.
Kaneki renders normally strong locations on many maps weak, by virtue of being able to prevent many tiles chains, making any long tiles something he can get hits around by stopping leaps next to survivors, and having his enraged vault recover fast enough to score hits on even small tiles... He's an m1 killer with none of the weaknesses of an m1 killer....
But if I say any of this I must be biased... it can't be that I can feel/see how much of his potential I'm not using, and STILL finding myself winning games that realistically I shouldn't...
At the very least his Kidnap Tech where he cancels his recovery animation with a vault when kagune marking a survivor who is locked in the full animation needs to be removed.
While this thing exists its very hard to assess how fair he is.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920072#Comment_3920072
It‘s probably fine, but my survivors don‘t bring enough toolboxes (or I didn’t notice them doing so) to justify using a counter that only works against one of all the items. Franklins is just way easier to apply and works against all items.
Ah you see the problem with Franklin's is toolboxes often get spent before you can use it on them.
Franklin's is great for medlits and flashlights, but not so effective at dealing with early gen rushing. 😉
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@Langweilig said:
The survivor perk is great. The killer perk is not for me I guess. Far too situational.
Interested in the discussion.
My thought process is it allows the killer to immediately see a generator that survivors are prioritising for completion, and limits the Survivor teams ability to gen rush at the start of the trial or trying to use toolboxes to break a 3 gen.
To my mind the ideal start for killer is to find and interrupt the Survivor bringing toolboxes and BNPs. Tjat survibor DOESN'T want to be chased, so in turn that's the survivor you probably do want to chase, as opposed to the flashlight clickers who want your attention.
Obviously if no one has a toolbox then it's pointless, but if they do, it counters numerous gen rush strategies using perks like Built To Last, Streetwise, Scavenger, Hyperfocus or Bardic Inspiration with strong toolboxes.
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I would guess this is a typo... because it definitely makes no sense...
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@sanees said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920015#Comment_3920015
I don't understand why you wrote chases as a minus. If you don't get chases, then what difference does killer sees you or not?
And in any case, when the killer gets the ability to see your aura, you lose distortion token and immediately understand what the killer has for a perk, so having spine chille is a little pointlessHmmmm? What do you mean? Avoiding aura reading is the opposite of going for chases. The whole point of knowing the killers auras is to assist you in deciding whether or not you want to be seen/take chase and avoiding it if necessary. If I'm running Shoulder the Burden or Deliverance or Invocation: Weaving Spiders for example, I do not want to take chase so I can get use of my perk.
The chase requirement is a downside for Distortion... taking chase directly puts you at risk and prevents certain strategies and builds. If you want to deduce more than 1 aura perk, you have to go get chase first so your ability to decipher the killers perks is on hold until you get multiple stacks through those chases. This is especially a problem for Lethal Pursuer builds... chances are the killer has another aura perk, bit you dont know what it might be (or if they have one) until you take another chase.
Not to mention stealth killers like Ghost Face or Wraith can pop up next to you and hit you down/leave you and immediately break chase, meaning you may not even get another stack.
Distortion has a good effect, but it starting with a single token is a (healthy) downside of Distortion, as it doesn't really allow you to say build to focus gen pressure or healing, because you need to be the one take chase for Distortion.
Object of Obsession has a stronger effect in that you get to see the killers aura in response, but you also have your aura revealed every 30s when you're the Obsession.
This also helps you determine killer auras in play, but is a perk that allows the killer to find you much more easily. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but if you're on death hook, or trying to break a 3 gen, this effect is a problem.
Both Distortion and Object of Obsession have healthy downsides to the strength their abilities bring... one of the big weaknesses of both is you cannot hide the perk from the killer, the killer can deduce you have those perks.
Spine Chill with this suggestion on the other hand would serve as a third flavour of aura reveal detection, that doesn't give away the fact you have it to the killer, and doesn't require you to fit your gameplay to the conditions of the perk.
It fulfills a niche of allowing you quietly detect aura reading on the killer to decide when exactly you want to employ your knowledge of the killers aura perks in the trial. Once you know its in play If you want to take chase you can, if you don't want chase, you can hide in a locker.
I'm not sure why what I said was so controversial 🤨🤨🤨🤨
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Yas please!
I've wanted Spine Chill as an aura sense tool for so long.
- Distortion needs you to get chases to get value beyond 1 aura detection.
- Object of Obsession has an additional benefit/downside that you may not want if you're the Obsession.
This gives Spine Chill a unique niche to fill.
I don't particularly care what the scalable effect is, could be anything really:
- Each time Spine Chill activates your next great skillcheck grants 1/2/3% additional progress when repairing or healing.
- You gain 5% haste for 4/5/6 seconds.
- Your vault speed is increased by 9% for 6/8/10 seconds.
Whatever.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919729#Comment_3919729
My intention was not to talk about my discussion. I just wanted to bring attention to this issue that remains untalken about. For me it’s sad that almost no one talks about how to make her the scary omnipresent killer again and everyone forgets her invisibility. Both of these things have so much potential and are for me much more fun to use than condemned. The condemned playstile is always spam tp to spread, which is not even fun to do in my opinion, but with the reworks they reduced her to that and made my chase playstile completely unviable (just because condemned was „too strong“ not the chase). This leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.
its not intuitive to my brain
What do you mean by that?
Only to be fair, I still had a global condemned passive timer suggestion, so I wouldn’t remove it. Just make it so you no longer have to spam it 20 times, which makes it easier to balance against good and bad players and less boring, because you can do something else in the meantime.
I generally also don‘t understand why you‘d want survivors to grab tapes? It gives you no advantage and when forced only downsides.
This to me means however the condemn management is less unique for the survivor side
What is so exciting about grabbing and turning off a TV? It is half a second interaction and not interactive. I would generally like to know.
I think the simplest explanation I can give is having regular access to teleporting across the map at any time eliminates the need to really play the macro game of DBD at all, and where I find it especially problematic is regards to tunneling (off hook or otherwise).
In games I love trade offs and questions. I've never liked having a clear option that is the best to take at any times. When it comes to tunneling, the thing that annoys me about Blight, Nurse, Kaneki and Billy; there is never a question on those killers of "hmmm... this is a survivor I can tunnel out now... but I'm a long way from that cluster of gens... do I commit to this tunnel target to eliminate them at the risk of losing this 3 gen? Or do I leave them and try to hold it?".
For those killers the answer is always "yes, tunnel them out" because they can always get back in time to defend with near impunity.
So in regards to Sadako, it's the not quite same thing, because she doesn't have the loop lethality of these killers... however she can hit and run like Wraith. If survivors are heavily discouraged from using tapes to shut down her teleport, it means that Sadako can keep hitting and running, wearing down resources (like she can now), but with the goal of tunneling out a given player in between. Tunnel aggressively, because you might as well, and as long as you can end chases reasonably consistently, you can always make it back to defend your gens.
If however survivors can shut down teleports, but with a potential condem penalty, that decision to tunnel comes with a cost, you can't TP straight back for the 3 gen, so you've got to weigh up the pros and cons of the tunnel.
In the same breathe a team who doesn't respect your condemn and just shuts down tapes mindlessly also runs a risk of giving her windows to suddenly build a lot of condemn pressure (this is what is missing now), and can lose the game via this alternative method. Weighing up this balance and reacting accordingly is more engaging to me and my playstyle 😁
However of course... just cause that's my preference doesn't mean I'm right... so I don't want to derail an alternative take on the killer 😁🤘
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919715#Comment_3919715
While I like your suggestion, it doesn‘t really solve my problem with her. I liked her first version the most because you had a very good/ fun map traversal and chase power, but since her reworks survivors are forced to turn TVs off and have TVs auras. This leaves very little room to use her power to chase survivors like back then. I wished they‘d separate the condemned counter from her mobility.
Aye, your rework is an interesting take, and it certainly sounds unique for Sadako.
The only reason I never commented on it is the logic of OG Sadako was reversed to my mind, and while I understand your rework and it would probably be fine, its not intuitive to my brain, so I don't feel like I could genuinely add to/argue legitimately for it. Survivors only grabbed a tape to try and remove condemn, there was literally no other reason to grab a tape since Sadako disabled her TVs longer than survivors did.
This to me means however the condemn management is less unique for the survivor side, it's effectively like fighting Freddy, where you ignore the effct while its not a problem and when the effect needs to be dealt with you come off gens and go deal with it with a quick fetch quest.
A modified version on modern Sadako with the global condemn and a tape effect sees survivors responsible for managing their own condemned dynamicallybbased on what is going on in the trial, and makes facing Sadako feel more unique.
At least that's how I see it, old Sadakonfeels like she was more aggressive about targetting a specific survivor for condemn. Modern Sadako feelS like a more slow burn across the whole team. Since i have a preference for modern Sadako, I don't think I'm the right guy to argue for a version that focused much more on OG Sadako, but certainly wont argue against your version... it sounds cool 😅
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919661#Comment_3919661
This feels good too as well!
So many good suggestions in thsi thread to be fair... The potential... it only needs to be realised... plz BHVR🙏
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@Pit_Bull_Love said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919608#Comment_3919608
Wait, you play pig, and with add-ons? Nope, instant dc, I don't play with toxic killers. XD
;🐽;
cries in self boop
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919578#Comment_3919578
Oh then I apologize I did misunderstand. I thought you meant one or the other, not both, okay that's fine then.
I'm still more of a fan of tape destruction over passive condemn though. They both punish tape holding but one is free and one is earned.
Yeah the chest having priority over killer spawns is a huge issue. Idk how that has existed this long and not fixed yet. I can lose matches just because I get a bad map or they have things that add chests. The TV spawns can make or break a match. Asylum is notorious for this. This map screws you on TV spawns.
Cool, no worries that man!
Yeah that's a fair shout.... as I think about it, tape destruction does handle the "eat a hit to rush deliver the tape" issue she has right now.
I'd happily accept this version instead of the passive condemn build up... in fact as I'm thinking about it more, I actually prefer it, since the killer is rewarded for ending chases rather having a "stall for condemn" cheese issue she would have with the passive condemn method
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@Pit_Bull_Love said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919461#Comment_3919461
Which combination of red and purple add-ons are you bringing as killer? Because every killer is bringing in their best add-ons as well.
John's Medical File and Workshop Grease Pig! ^🐽^
Chase Pig FTW!
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I still don't know why they didn't just add breakable walls instead of all the random gaps in the buildings where the windows are. As well as making it horrifically killer sided, these random gaps just seem bizarre...
Bringing back breakable walls would solve so many problems by giving survivors a 1 time single use of that building window being strong, and the killer having to take time out going round breaking these walls would give survivors much needed time to progress objectives.
If they don't wanna overhaul the map again, it'd be a cheap fix that would at least make the map somewhat playable for Survivor.
Still a roflstomp for Nurse of course, but I don't think think there is any way to solve that.
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I feel like blinding through the killers hitbox against a wall was definitely a problem to be fixed, I don't think anyone can sensibly argue that "driving off" survivors is the correct play when background player exists.
If I were to buff flashbang the direction I would go would be:
- Prevent looking up as a counter, make them turning away the counter.
- Have a longer blind duration, at least the same as a max addon flashlight... because it's a flashbang, it should be a strong blind.
- Apply the Blindness status effect for 20s after being hit.
Between this and the Deafened status effect, I feel this is actually a decent alternative to Flashlights, especially as the killer can't see you have it in the lobby.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919485#Comment_3919485
I wasn't arguing semantics to be petty, the contradiction of wording just made it confusing as to your intent. IE I wasn't sure if maybe you meant it to be actually global instead.
I think your scenario of good players with tapes makes this version look like a buff because it's being very generous in the scenario rather than realistic. The survivors won't sit on tapes so they generally won't be getting passive condemn. So generally what you're gonna be looking at it .5 on global condemn and .75 on directs, rather than now for the 1 and 1. That's significantly less. I don't see how your version hurts the bad players less.
Hits destroying tapes would be a better punishment than a passive condemn since it only rewards skilled play.
"Regarding it being an overall nerf on her best maps, yes thats the point... to reduce the effectiveness of her best maps to try and improve her overall on all maps. "
I didn't say reduce her effectiveness, I said make them her worst maps. Two different things. I know your point is to reduce their effectiveness. That's fine. But your change would make the tv distribution very awkward on those maps if they weren't affecting all levels. I'm okay with this change, I'm just saying she would need other improvements to compensate. Maybe now TV's dont affect multi levels, but maybe there's 2 more TV's on all maps, or their range is slightly longer. This wouldn't make the hit on those indoor maps as hard while also helping her on the huge maps. Just as much as she's too good on those indoor maps, she's too bad on the larger ones, and I'd like that improved as well.
So generally what you're gonna be looking at it .5 on global condemn and .75 on directs, rather than now for the 1 and 1.
Just to check, reading your response here, you may have misunderstood that a direct teleport applies 0.75 from the direct condemn AND the 0.5 from the global condemn. That's 0.5 and 1.25 instead of the 1 and 1. The 0.75 direct condemn is in addition to the 0.5 from the global condemn.
Regarding the TVs spawns on maps being janky, I am with you there, though I don't think it'd be too big a problem with this set of changes and I would personally attribute this issue (and the chests overriding TVs spawns issue) as a separate discussion regarding her power.
Apologies if I've incorrectly interpreted your response here though... just need clarification on this point in your last post so we know what we're debating 😅
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919222#Comment_3919222
This would be a net overall nerf to an already weak killer. As well as nerf her best maps, which ironically with the level change would potentially make them some of her worst.
Not sure why you call it a global condemn and then say around powered tv's. That's not global. Global was sadako v2, which means the whole map.
With all due respect, why exactly are we nitpicking on terms? I called it the global condemn to clearly distinct it from the other half of the effect you gain where you teleport direct to the TVs. Who cares what I call it as long as you understand what I'm referring to/suggesting?
Regarding it being an overall nerf on her best maps, yes thats the point... to reduce the effectiveness of her best maps to try and improve her overall on all maps. A killer should not be reasonably weak on majority of maps and then be stupidly strong on specific maps, which is the case with Sadako on Gideon and Midwich... unless Jump Scare Myers is considered a goal for Sadako's design, which I'm sure you'd agree would be a strange design philosophy to take.
The whole idea here is to recapture her original playstyle that rewards good predictions and TV tracking/reads on survivors via TPs. I don't see how it's a nerf overall, considering her lock in is at 3. Let's imagine how this plays out.
Survivors grab a tape: -
- Starts building condemn at a rate of 1 every 40s.
- After 70s, they are at 1.75 stacks of condemn and their TV turns back on.
- Sadako being careful with tracking such things is aware of this and teleports to their TV. If they didn't run early to deliver their tape this survivor is hit with an additional 1.25 condemn taking them to 3 condemn. A survivor running early to avoid this means her condemn is providing her with the passive slowdown she needs from.her power.
- Sadako can also manually interrupt them early without TP, and push them off gens, in so doing gaining time back on that TV.
- The survivor tries to loop Sadako, and are still building condemn passively with the tape. If downed without reaching their TV, they are at least sat on somewhere between 2 - 3 condemn with change.
- If not downing them Sadako can leave. The survivor now has to either deliver their tape or return to gen. Sadako can predict either one and add another 1.25 condemn, quickly mounting pressure on that survivor to have to deal with their condemn or risk having it locked in.
- If Sadako can push them into a TV, or guess their TV and TP ahead of them as they try to deliver their tape, she's looking at ~3.5-4.5 condemn when they get hooked. That's 3 condemn locked in with extra if can down them before they reach it... which is what the 1.5s insert time assists with.
That doesn't sound weak, and rewards Sadako for good tape and TV tracking.
Now let's look at a survivor not grabbing a tape: -
- Working on a gen without grabbing a tape gives you 0.5 stacks every teleport. Lets assume Sadako begins TPing to find a survivor and TPs 2 or 3 times. That 1-1.5 condemn immediately.
- Now she TPs to you directly and has 2.25-2.75 condemn on you and begins chase.
- If she manages to push you into a TV, she can get an additional 1.25 condemn, now at 3.5-4 condemn.
- Even if she can't push you into a TV and drops chase with you, you now need to start looking at doing a tape, which starting from ~2.5 is gonna start the above chain of issues, but reach 3 in 30s or so, which is about your average delivery time.
- Now if she guesses your TV as you go to get a tape, or deliver one you're getting that additional 1.25 condemn. Your likely sat around somewhere between 3.5 and 4.5 condemn.
Do also bear in mind that by not grabbing tapes her TVs are coming back online more frequently, so Sadako is allowed to use her global presence more often, and again rewards Sadako for good tape tracking.
The survivors have this tangible trade off between allowing more global presence to Sadako via TPs, or denying that presence at the risk of building condemn more rapidly. In either case Survivors are having to slow down gen progress to deal with their condemn, and Sadako playing around her TVs well can reap a lot of rewards.
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I'm hoping they're gonna go through with day/night/twilight variations of each map, which would make a cool offering. Day variations could have a red tint to the sky the same as they had for the Entity in TCoFS.
I would want luck offerings totally overhauled or retired... it's an outdated mechanic that I feel shouldn't be in the game.
Melted Scalpal I think would be a great replacement for Airlock Doors.
Solid shouts for everything else! I've been wanting to post a offerings Overhaul post for a while now 🤘😁🤘
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I agree with the premise, there are lots of ways you could do it. My personal take was trying to reduce the noob stomp nature of her by bringing back some off the Sadako v1's skill expression.
- Global condemn applies 0.5 stacks around powered TVs.
- Teleporting directly to TV applies an additional 0.75 stacks to survivors in range (same elevation only, looking at you Gideons and Midwich).
- Tapes apply condemn at a rate of 1 stack every 40s. (30s seems a little fast when you have global condemn in play and the new ability to pressure someone with 1.25 stacks per direct teleport).
- It takes 1.5s to insert a tape (up from 1s).
I believe this gives targeted teleports and good reads greater value, especially with her hook lock in, while making the mindless TP spam much less effective, and the decision to grab a tape isn't too intimidating, while also not being something you can do completely for free.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919113#Comment_3919113
oh. then even worse proxy camping isn't face camping and is necessary to secure kills when the situation demands for it
That's a stance...
But by that logic aren't OTR, Decisive Strike, Unbreakable perks that shouldn't exist because sometimes tunneling and slugging are necessary to win?
Isn't Camaradarie and Resilience in need of being deleted because proxy camping is sometimes necessary to win?
This effect would disable at end game of course because the AFC disables at end game. Not quite sure what makes this perk so problematic when it's entirely situational, comparable in strength to other similar perks that exist that are locked behind a paywall.
The killer is entirely in control of whether they activate this perk or not, and a killer that's paying attention can see or work out that it's in play and react accordingly. Vs. A smart killer it makes trading little easier for survivors, and dimishes the effectiveness of camping slightly without being broken.
What exactly do you see as the issue with this perk?
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@Leon_Loves_Cheryl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919155#Comment_3919155
I did not at all "insinuate" that Legion and Ghostface are on Ghoul's level of power lmao. That has absolutely nothing to do with any of the points that I made. I'm not going to engage with the rest of this comment.
I mean... fair enough?
To defend my argument, you literally stated that Legion injures faster than Kaneki with his power and Ghost face pops out of nowhere to instant down as a defence for why Kaneki needs his enraged vault and those killers do not...
The natural logical implication of that pov is that these aspects of those killers are at the very least comparable in value to Kaneki's mobility, cut off and near guaranteed injuries, if not stronger, and thus he needs to have his vault, whereas neither of these killers should have the same.
Now I don't think you think that, but if you're holding the stance that Kaneki needs this vault and becomes non-functional without it, you're basically saying the other aspects of his kit are so weak, that the Killer who is universally agreed to be stronger than Legion and Ghost Face suddenly becomes weaker than them without this vault... and I don't think it's unreasonable of me to conclude that doesn't make sense.
I'm not trying to insult you my dude, I'm trying to reach a conclusion on this killer. You have an opposing experience and point of view, so I'm probing your argument to ascertain where our disagreements lie and hopefully have you help better inform my own argument and opinion...
However sure, if you wanna move on from the conversation, I guess we can just agree to disagree.
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@Leon_Loves_Cheryl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919120#Comment_3919120
Right, but Kaneki would also be really weak if his cancel recovery was longer. He would also feel very slow and clunky because he is foundationally not designed to just stare at you for several seconds while cancelling power. The cancel fatigue is balanced around whether or not he was able to outmaneuver you. 9 times out of 10, if he failed to outmaneuver you, you will still reach the pallet. That's the point of the fatigue and it correctly does its job. It doesn't need to be raised higher. The concession they made to deal with the "break pallet then jump and instadown" problem (which absolutely was a problem) was by adding an artificial cooldown to his power when he breaks pallets. It was a genius way to balance the killer without touching the fatigue.
Both killers can vault, Legion take 0.9s to do so, but Legion has this 2.5s recovery at 2.3m/s. Kaneki meanwhile with Enraged vaults at 1.0s with a 1.25s recovery at 2m/s, and also applies a 50% hinder on the survivor for 1.0s.
I fail to see your point. Legion gives you more distance because he can injure you and your entire team in 5 seconds. In the same amount of time, Kaneki just finished injuring one person and being stuck enraging afterward. Thus you cannot nerf Kaneki's vault without making him weaker than both Legion and Wesker. Kaneki already has a built-in Legion stun when he gets the injure. You are asking to ruin the killer. The whole design is to dash, outmaneuver, and if successful, cancel and down someone. That's the whole killer.
What's the point of making his vault as niche as Wesker's if it can't down you? Wesker's dash is slower because they don't want him to brainlessly fallback on M1'ing you if you're outplaying his power at a pallet. Kaneki can ONLY M1 you. Nerfing the vault would destroy the killer.
What's the point of making his cancel fatigue longer? So you can get outplayed and just shrug your shoulders and turn around and run to a different pallet/window? It's balanced this way so he can be rewarded for catching you/blocking you from a resource. If you nerf the cancel fatigue then he's just "catch up simulator" because there'd be no reason to try to use his power during loops like Shack for example because even if you outmaneuver the survivor, they would have enough time to just laugh and walk away. The cancel fatigue is fine exactly as it is.
The killer is SUPPOSED to be rewarded for outmaneuvering you, this is how he is designed. The artificial cooldown already exists so that he doesn't get skill-free downs on you between loops if he breaks a pallet.
I'm frustrated with people wanting to make Wesker hilariously outshine this killer. Ghoul and Wesker should BOTH be allowed to be good in their respective niches. As I've said before, if Ghoul's vault is slow, you might as well play Wesker so you can have a slow vault but at least have a power that also downs people. You're trying to take away the niche that Ghoul is meant to fulfill without understanding it.
The balance is ideal as it is. Wesker has less map mobility but a lethal power. Legion has almost no map mobility but injures everyone easily and efficiently. Ghoul has easy injures (but not efficient injures) and a ton of mobility but a non-lethal power. It's fine as it is.
I think fundamentally I don't see your argument that Kaneki without enraged vault suddenly becomes a D tier killer.
You're not necessarily wrong in how you describe Kaneki's power working, but you tend to argue in absolutes, and massively overplay the strength of Legion and Ghost Face and end up insinuating they are on par to Kaneki, and essentially act like Kaneki's cut off power is completely toothless. It simply is not, and trying to claim as such puts a major question mark in how biased your argument is. The fundamental fact is Kaneki is not particularly hard to play, and has strength that is comparable to top tier killers like Blight and Wesker, and that is an opinion shared by many players both on killer and survivor side. Low skill floor, high skill ceiling.
I am not saying Kaneki needs to be gutted, I've stated mutliple times he needs his kidnap tech removed, and he needs to then be reviewed in strength. The killer hasn't even been out a month so I don't know for sure how strong he is, but what I do know is this killer is proving harder to adapt to for me than any other killer I've faced to date, and I'm exploring the ideas around why he feels so much more oppressive to play against than any other m1 killer.
For example, Wraith can do the same body blocking strategies as Kaneki and has similar (though weaker) levels of map traversal. Wraith is much easier to handle at loops via greeding pallets given that his uncloak is highly telegraphed and predictable. Kaneki's vault is also highly telegraphed and predictable, and yet I get hit by Kaneki's vault much more often than I get hit by Wraith's uncloak, and often at tiles that are supposed to heavily favour the survivor.
I've played Kaneki myself and even when I'm fumbling my controls and botching my inputs, I still don't feel like I'm weak. I've deliberately played him without exploiting his nastier abilities or builds, and even when I've gotten a 1k, I can feel how much of the killers potential I'm not using. On several occasions I scored hots where I was genuinely sat thinking "yep... that guy had literally nowhere to go". I'm still new to him, and I'm reserving judgement, but as a regular Trapper, Pig, Myer player, this "he becomes D tier" argument is plain bogus.
The fundamental fact of DBD is killer strength is typically tempered by how easy they are to play. Across the whole roster the ease of landing hits tends to correlate to the max potential of the killer. Legion, Wraith and Ghost Face are quite easy to play, so have a pretty firm upper bound on their skill cap. Blight and Billy are quite hard to play, and take time to learn, so have a huge maximum potential but are also rather inaccessible to new players.
The argument I am stressing is this enraged vault is not at all hard to do. It doesn't take much skill or preparation to use it, and it is highly rewarding on a killer that does also have a lot of additional strengths to accompany it, and beyond learning to cancel his swing at the right time doesn't have that much difficulty to him.... just his mobility alone eliminates pretty all macro skills required, because he can easily get back to gens, hooks and slugs without any time concerns, something that all other examples you've provided cannot.
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I still want an add-on for maps that shows discovered windows and pallets. Also a brown map variant.
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@Leon_Loves_Cheryl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919033#Comment_3919033
I already made it clear. Not sure how else I can word it for you. Ghoul is a chase killer, so he has a strong chase power. Ghostface is a stealth killer that can come out of somewhere unexpected and oneshot you, so he would be overpowered if he had Ghoul's vault. You have to understand that what makes a killer good is what they're supposed to have. You wouldn't take away Trapper's traps, you wouldn't take away Artist's crows, so you can't take away Ghoul's vault. It has to be fast enough to be worth using so he's not just Legion in chase. We already have Legion. BHVR doesn't want to make another weak chase killer.
In other words, every killer has their own niche. Legion can injure everybody very efficiently, which is why he isn't good at actually getting people down. Kaneki is similar because, while he is a pure M1 killer, he can use his power in interesting ways to outmaneuver and block survivors in order to earn his downs. If you nerf his mobility (and the enraged vault does count as mobility) then he'll become very weak, because he can't injure as efficiently as Legion can and his power can't down whereas Wesker's can.
I must reiterate that Ghoul will become just a glorified Legion if you nerf his enraged vault. Again, his vault is faster than Wesker's because Wesker's power can down you. Kaneki can vault fast but the tradeoff is that his power cannot down you and he gives you time to head to another tile. If he enrage vaults on you and you don't have time to reach another tile/window/pallet, you should get downed. I feel like some people are arguing this topic in bad faith - the survivor should go down without a solid setup. The killer should be strong overall.
I don't think anyone is being disingenuous, and I have said repeatedly that the correct thing to do is remove his Kidnap Tech and reassess. I think everyone is being quite reasonable in this discussion.
However to address the Legion comparison, the major difference between Kaneki and Legion is Legion's mobility doesn't allow him to drop back to downing people with m1s whilst still moving at high speed.
Legion only moves in Feral Frenzy between 5.2m/s and 5.92m/s (if you're on your fourth hit you obviously don't try to cut off, you just down). In order to hit survivors moving around tiles, they can cut off and block windows, but it is rare they can make it to the window or pallet first. They move at 2.3m/s in fatigue for 2.5s (which was only recently buffed mind you), and it allows them to close distance, bit to actually get ahead is usually not possible.
Kaneki on the other hand can move at 14m/s with a leap, can land right next to or just ahead of a survivor with a 2s recovery at 1.6m/s. The difference is obviously that Kaneki's ability to land where he needs to be to ensures the Survivor has the maximum time to make safety possible is vastly superior to Legion's power at most tiles. Legion is forced to keep walking after the Survivor until the Survivor is in a position where they can't reach safety to drop his power, Kaneki can be much more active with this, as the OP cites in their usage of the killer.
Both killers can vault, Legion take 0.9s to do so, but Legion has this 2.5s recovery at 2.3m/s. Kaneki meanwhile with Enraged vaults at 1.0s with a 1.25s recovery at 2m/s, and also applies a 50% hinder on the survivor for 1.0s.
Would you therefore say that Legion should have their recovery after a vault dropped to 1s to compensate? This is the exciting and "skillful" gameplay we're talking about for Kaneki? Cause to me, this looks quite blatantly like a no skill free down at vast majority of tiles.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3918992#Comment_3918992
well the reason i asked because i didn't want to misrepresent since it's broken for survivors but idk how far the anti camp meter even goes since i took a break when that was implemented but all that 2nd effect will do is make slippery meat meta since that's just adding free hook time the more you try unhooking yourself. hooking already punishes killers with anti tunnel perks being able to be used offensively it's just further punishing killers for hooking and since bhvr is punishing killers for slugging and phase 2 trying to destroy it is just going to make playing killer worse
I think you've misunderstood. Unhook attempts have no bearing on it at all.
All this is doing is extending the Anti Camp detection range on the killer from 16m to 20m, and every 10% the Anti camp meter fills up will pause the sacrifice timer for 4 seconds.
This punishes a killer excessively proxy camping, since it causes a feedback loop where trying to proxy camp extends the sacrifice timer, which in turn means you build up more Anti Camp.
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@Leon_Loves_Cheryl said:
(I will be using pictures to help make my comment more readable)
The enraged vault doesn't need a nerf. The killer is pretty balanced overall after the latest nerfs (I still wish they didn't reduce his dash range by 2m and instead just reduced the range in which he can grab onto survivors by that amount, but oh well)
Any reduction to the vault speed would be detrimental to the character. He needs to vault fast because his power is nonlethal. If you make him slower he's just a Legion that injures far more slowly and moves around the map more quickly.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/P8RDEYSR4BB6/image.png
Let's take Wesker for example.
Wesker can down you with M2, Kaneki cannot. So the compensation Kaneki has is a faster vault in order to M1 you since he can't M2 you at loops. It just takes time to adapt and learn which loops he can catch you at by doing this and which he cannot. It's actually quite binary unless he's Hasted or you're Hindered. It takes time to map it out.
It just takes time to learn where to kite him towards. If the enraged vault means he can catch you with the M1, that just means you can't run that loop while he's enraged and while he can see you to vault at you. And as @Daniel_Silva04 said, you have the option of greeding the pallet to take advantage of the slowdown while his power is out. It's a mindgame. Will he wait for you to drop the pallet and try to vault into you? Or will he ignore the pallet and try to hit you? This is what makes DBD interesting even after all these years for many people.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/M400FHU43F3H/image.png
There ARE loops wide enough where his enraged vault does not lead into an eventual M1. My point is just that it takes time to figure out which loops you should or should not run while he is enraged. The vault speed is the way it is because he needs to M1 you. Wesker's vault is slower because he can M2 you, so they slow down his vault to prevent him from just abusing it to catch you with an M1 if you're outmaneuvering his power around a pallet.
It wouldn't make any sense balance-wise if Kaneki's enraged vault was too slow because you'd just play Wesker instead. There are fundamental reasons why Wesker's vault takes longer and Kaneki's is shorter.
If Kaneki's enraged vault was any slower there'd be no reason to use it most of the time. Just play Wesker instead. They don't want to make another Legion where the power is 99% useless in the loop itself. They don't want to make another C or B tier killer.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/X1HX13GJGEUW/image.png
Also keep in mind that Ghoul is a chase killer. They're not a stealth killer or a pressure killer. The ONLY thing Ghoul can do is chase. So if you nerf their ability to chase, you're ruining the character holistically. The enraged vault would be OP on Ghostface because he can also sneak and oneshot you. Ghoul MUST chase you and MUST M1 you.
Comparing the enraged vault to Scamper is also disingenuous because chucky could crawl under pallets whenever he wanted to. Kaneki needs to be enraged, have line of sight of you, and needs to be direct opposite of a window or pallet to you, and it needs to be his first dash because the second/third will damage you instead of vaulting (unless the target is marked.)
While there is a lot there, and there is some stuff I see the merit of, some I do not, one point leaves me in real bind...
Can you explain to me how Ghost Face is busted with a Ghoul vault on an exposed target vs. Ghoul with his vault after a hitscan ranged injury with a very forgiving auto aim? You are in effect exposed vs. Ghoul for all intents and purposes, and this is what makes the Wesker argument less viable. While Weskers power is stronger for downing survivors, Wesker has to outplay his opponent twice, while Ghoul does not.
Ghoul can prevent hold W from pallet to window to pallet. A skilled Ghoul can literally get a basically guaranteed hit around the back of shack by leaping around it and landing next to the survivor. Ghost Face does not have the ability to handle these things, and also loses significant time to numerous survivor perks like Lithe, Sprint Burst, Dead Hard, Off the Record, Decisive Strike, whereas Ghoul is barely hindered at all by any of these things.
A killer like Ghoul with the ability to injure so quickly would normally be countered by not healing, except because he has this strong vault AND the ability to drop right next to you if you're even a little far from safety, you have to heal against him... assuming you even can if he decides to run back to hook and tunnel.
As I've stated before, Ghoul has exceptionally good synergy with perks. Arguably the best Bamboozle user, excellent with Dissolution or Spirit Fury, is probably the best user of Friends Til the End, and the stealth argument is moot when there are perks like Unforseen, Trail of Torment and Hex:Plaything that he can make very solid use of.
As I said, maybe he doesn't need more removing that Kidnap Tech, but this narrative that teh Ghoul is a weak m1 killer after his initial injury is to be frank... laughable.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3918949#Comment_3918949
So how I understand it:
Survivors usually have 70 seconds per stage. This perk would increase detection range of anticamp feature and whenever you get 10% progress (20,30,40 etc) it would basically add 4 seconds to time you can stay on hook.Nailed it!
Also added some fixes, cause that post got butchered somehow 🤔
@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/443973/one-new-general-perk-for-either-side
wait maybe i'm misreading. by the unhook detection range are you talking about the anti camp meter? and also so you're saying for every time you self unhook your hook stage bar pauses?
Yeah sorry, I was trying to write it how it might appear as a genuine perk description...
Writing "Anti Face Camp" in the perk description felt unbelievably off... it needs a proper lore friendly name, cause even my version doesn't sound good either 😕
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@Stibfa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3917401#Comment_3917401
Making him always slide would hinder his anti loop skill expression i dont think thats a good idea, the counterplay is making ghoul break the pallet which will be a lot more consistent when they nerf his enrage vault
@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3917485#Comment_3917485
I agree with the kidnap thing, but his vault generally isn‘t that useful. It‘s very much overestimated.
EDIT: To be fair I feel.like Kidnap Tech needs to be fixed, then see where hes at...
If further nerfs are required I feel like either his cancel needs to slide or his enraged vault needs to be set the same as his regular vault. There are so many tiles that are normally really good, that do nothing vs. Kaneki, and this killer already punishes you for leaving tiles. He has plenty of perks he can take to help him deal with really strong tiles if he wishes and still get to play around his stromg cut off. Just from a design point of view. If he can force me to stay at tiles so I can't chain, he should have to play the tile himself.
As it stands, I've been hit by his enraged vault and not even made it round small tiles to even attempt to vault at times... and annoyingly I knew he was gonna do it and I still went down anyway. The only times I've been able to reasonably consistently beat his vault is if I'm running MFT on a decent map, and I shouldn't need to run a killers exact counter to stand a reasonable chance against them.
Even outside of Kidnap Tech, the combination of being able to render any decent length tile completely unloopable via his OG Chucky scamper level vault, and any ability to chain to tiles is completely counterable by sliding or cancelling makes the killers "skill expression" not all that skillful. He shouldn't have both.
I've been playing him without cancelling, and he's got good control even without the cancel, if you always slide it's actually more fun IMO to use him, cause you have to let go early, and now we have a mind game... does the survivor double back or go forward? Do I have to let go early? Or do I full send it?
As such personally I'm with @PetTheDoggo, make him always slide, remove the Kidnap tech and you've got a killer that has some good options but actually has to have skill and good understanding of when to use his power and when not to to effectively cut off survivors.
It woudk also work to alternatively take his enraged vault off him and let him slide and cancel as he sees fit. The fact he can do both right now is plain silly. Currently he's basically a 4.6m/s version of original Chucky with scamper, with a free injury, better map traversal and a MUCH shorter cooldown.
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@Hex_Ignored said:
I have to agree with other commenters that the gameplay against trap killers is really dull.
You can't really outplay them, they either have already trapped everything and you just die, or all of their traps are either sloppily placed and/or disarmed and you get an absolutely thrilling m1 chase. Either way, it's just boring.
Also, the counter to trap killers is team coordination. I don't think I need to go into too much detail why this sucks for soloq.
Then there is also the "defensive" playstyle that comes with trap killers. Putting all traps into one area and just camping it the entire game is tedious to go against and wastes a lot of time, no matter the outcome.
In summary, trap killers facilitate boring gameplay that is also a nightmare for soloq players who have no real ways to coordinate their moves. The archetype is just not made for a fast paced action game of freeze tag that dbd technically is.
Not that I disagree, but how many of dash/projectile killers realistically can we add before everything is played out?
For Trap Killers you have Trapper and Hag. You could loosely argue Freddy is a trap killer with his pallets, and really loosely Singularity is with his biopods. Skull Merchant was never realised as a true trap killer, she was like Singularity in a lot of ways, but she could have been a trap killer, and of the outliers SM2.0 could be played more like a trap killer than any other character since Hag. That would give us three to five depending on how far you lean.
Meanwhile for speedy Dash killers (As in killers that can turn themselves into a projectile to suddenly close distance through or round loops for hits) we have:
- Hillbilly
- Nurse
- Spirit
- Blight
- Wesker
- Oni
- Dracula
- Twins
- Chucky
- Ghoul
You can even loosely put in this category:
- Pig
- Bubba
For projectile killers, who are effectively the same concept of speedy thing lands injure through or round tiles, we have: -
- Huntress
- Plague
- Deathslinger
- Pyramid Head
- Nemesis
- Xenomorph
- Unknown
- Vecna
- Artist
With loosely being able to add:
- Houndmaster
- Pinhead (Engineers Fang)
Now I know this isn't quite comparing apples to apples here, and some of these have very different feels for dash/projectile killers... I've even left off some killers with projectiles, speed steroids and cut off via TPs, cause that would be a little disingenuous to try and claim they fit this archetype...
However my point is, players who don't like trap killers and prefer more active chase killers have tonnes of options available to them, well over half the roster.
If we accept the premise that enjoyment is subjective (which I'm sure you agree), and not everyone finds playing as or against trap killers boring; doesn't it seem a bit rich to say "Yes trap killers aren't as popular, so lets convert Skull Merchant away from one of the very few trap style killers in the game, and instead make her a dash/projectile killer like over half the roster"?
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I'm personally against adding aura perks basekit wherever possible, especially for killer.
A skill to master for both sides is the ability to read the trial state and predict what the others in the trial are doing. Aura reading perks/abilities having numerous different flavours and situational benefits, as well as being mostly only available via build commitment, is the very thing that gives those perks value, and any basekit aura reading immediately reduces the value of not only that perk, but every other aura reading perk in the game.
E.g. the value of Bond is massively reduced when you have basekit Kindred. The value of BBQ and Chilli is massive reduced if you have basekit Alien Instinct. Why take these over something like We'll Make It or Pop goes The Weasel if you already have Aura reading built in?
The entire point of an aura perk or add-on is you gain the benefits of reducing the errors you make when applying your trial reading skill via having very accurate information, but at the cost of forgoing more immediately effective perks that can have a much morr immediate and bigger impact on the trial.
This is especially problematic on Killer because killers with lots of map mobility benefit greatly from aura reading, whereas less mobile killers cannot capitalise anywhere near as frequently. Basekit Alien Instinct would be not particularly beneficial on killers like Trapper, Hag or Myers, but absolutely devastating on Blight, Spirit or Wesker, and allow those killers to drop having to take any aura reading perks to instead take more immediately impactful perks to make them even more oppressive.
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@crogers271 said:
I guess the one overwhelming thing missing from your post is:
How does it feel to play against?
Because I enjoy playing trap killers, I like a lot of things you talk about, but as a survivor? In the worst case scenarios its a combination of both being broken and boring.
Let's look at some of the other killer's you mentioned:
Other killers I enjoy playing are Trapper, Myers, Hag, Sadako, and at one point Artist. The thing I tend to like about all of these killers is the set up, followed by the pay off.Sadako and Artist (and Pig) - the strategy game here is a 1v1. This is markedly different than SM where the ability to take down her drones was much easier for a coordinated team than soloq. With Sadako/Pig I primarily have to worry about my own timer/condemn, I don't have to time my actions off the other survivors. Is it easier if working in a team? I bet, but all things SWF are.
Trapper/Hag - Jump scares are fun. Yeah the feeling fades after a lot of play, but that feeling as new/mid player when running through grass or jumping over an unknown vault is very exciting and worrying you're about to hit a trap.
The least enjoyable version of Trapper to go against is basement. As a survivor you basically know where the traps will be, you know the Trapper will be guarding the area so there's no surprise, and its much easier for a SWF to make a decision between 'just do gens' or 'go for group rescue'.
SM has none of the jump scare fun. The Drone's are just there. There's no tension or excitement on the survivor side, it's just a game of attack/defend, nothing that really approaches a thriller/horror genre.
Myers - I remember my first game against an infinite tombstone Myers and thinking afterward 'so when we spot him, we just try to run around corners, if we get gens done in time we win, if not he wins, while we play peak-a-boo', again games like that are not very engaging.
I think the real shame and big concern for Skull Merchant is instead of her being modelled for a player type that doesn't have so many options to pick from... we instead throw her into the pool of killers where there are plenty of those style killers already...Well the other options just work better. You don't have the overwhelming SWF/soloq disparity in playstyle and strength (Stealth would be the closest), you have a much more predictable game pacing and experience, you don't have situations where the game deadlocks because the killer has completed the setup and the survivors realize its suicide to attack, and you have more engagement from the survivors. Trap killers can work, but they face a lot of potential problems.
I hear what you're saying and I don't disagree. I think Skull Merchant's potential as a horror killer has always lied in that brief moment where you run into a scan you didn't know was there, and getting that "Oh crap... she now knows where I am", kind of suspense, and you don't know if she's coming, or where from.
I won't post my whole suggestion for Skull Merchant, but the abridged version was to have her take ~1.5-2 seconds to place a drone, and give her stealth drone 2 scan lines, but make them stationary to properly cut off paths. Also remove ground indicator in stealth mode. Id then have it change to a single scan line when scouting and buff the speed by say... ~30-50%.
You get the picture, this makes the drones reliable off paths, and the drones intimidation factor lies in that suprise moment where you run into one unexpectedly to my mind... I suppose you may still get that kind of thing with the new version I suppose... but it's a little too reminiscent of Pinhead as @BlackRabies indicates.
@Blueberry said:
I think the trap type killer can work it’s just been done wrong a lot. The problem they face is that they end up being a “3 gen” type killer. They get a little web, hook the person in the web and then never leave. This is how most of them play out.
How do we fix this? Limit the close proximity stacking of all their “traps” so they can’t just cluster pile onto a 3 gen, hook or basement. However in return for limiting this you significantly improve their ability to have traps spread across the map.
Not being literal here, but it’s the kind of thought process of if something like hag couldnt stack as many traps close together or near a hook but in return she was given much more traps, longer teleport range and faster teleport lunges. The goal is making spreading “traps” all over the map more viable but weakening stacking them up. We can apply this idea to all trap killers.
Currently they don’t make these killers that strong because it buffs the boring pile traps on top of the hooked guy or 3 gen playstyle. It limits their ability to improve them.
Indeed, this the kind of thing I'd want to address for Hag, with some appropriate compensation buffs elsewhere. Skull Merchant does already have quite a sizable placement deadzone between her drones though already...
Trapper and Hag can 100% lock down basement for example, but Skully, not so much. I felt like she was and had potential to have quite a unique take on the trap killer...
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I would argue that effortlessly dunking on your opponents with broken abilities is maybe fun for a couple of games and is otherwise not fun at all, it gets actually quite boring pretty fast.
As well as major fixes, I still maintain Twins needs to be altered so that, when downing survivors, Victor pounce is punishing to use up close with a longer recovery, and much more forgiving when making long range pounces.
Crawling up a survivors leg and downing them is lame... it's sometimes necessary, but the Twins should be encouraged to go for longer range leaps when possible. Something like a 5s recovery on a point blank pounce and tapering based on flight time to 1s recovery on a max range pounce.
It'd make them more fun to play as because you can go for optimistic hits without constantly being in fear that every miss results in a kick to the face, and would make him more fun to face cause you actually can try to read and mindgame/juke Victor.
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While I do not like FNAF as a whole, I did like the first game for what it was... and I have a little more optimism.
I think BHVR have solid skills to give FNAF a horror glow up for it to be the best it can be... if they can adapt it to a more grounded horror aesthetic and make it look ugly, we might have a chance...
The character model is gonna be a little problematic I think regardless, but if the movement looks appropriately unnatural and menacing, the audio is done well, the hits feel visceral, and you give me a nasty Mori (which BHVR have been cooking with lately) then it might be alright...
We can't really fix the issues with the source unfortunately... thinking about how the later games in the series butchered the cold lifeless death stare of the original game to instead now have me see the humanity of children behind the animatronics eyes... I get quite annoyed whenever I think of how they humanised the franchise... but if I can block/delete that from my mind and think of the original games experience... FNAF doesn't look so bad.
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916828#Comment_3916828
Thoughts on Kaneki?
I'm warming my fingers again before I post that one xD
But in a nutshell, Kaneki feels little like getting hit by Winter Soldier Ult in Marvel Rivals xD
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@Langweilig said:
@UndeddJester is back and alive again. We missed you.
The Joker: You know, kids, a lot has changed since your old Uncle Joker's been away. New Gotham, new rules, even a new Batman. But now I'm tanned, I'm rested and I'm ready to give this old town a wedgie again! -
@terumisan said:
pig and now skull merchant
I have this weird thing as Skull Merchant where I do far better than I should...
I had the same issue with Backpack Legion... Awakened Awareness, Mad Grit, Iron Grasp, Agitation... it has no right to work, and yet I do better with this build than any proper build I come up with 💀
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@danielmaster87 said:
I actually am excited for this crossover. FNAF always would have been a better series if they'd stuck to a more horror direction, instead of becoming increasingly marketed towards kids of all people. But hopefully its inclusion in this game will be more horror-based.
Thats also how I feel about it. I liked the first game, I feel like while it was mostly a jump scare fest, the clever camera system did see you panic and sit on edge when you lost sight of one. It did a hell of a lot with the simple mechanics it created. Later entries however overcomplicated the premise, and created a story that greatly diminished the fear factor.
I was not thrilled with where the franchise went, but like yourself, I do feel like BHVR can likely give FNAF a much needed injection of credibility, and jack it up as good as it can be.
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I did read the whole thing. An interesting perspective this TTV has, and probably not a unique one.
Personally I don't tend to tunnel or slug unless I'm forced by players hiding all game and being only able to find one player, or everyone swarming me for saves. I see nothing wrong with opportunistic slugging and tunneling, but will not go oit of my way to do so for 2 reasons: -
- I like testing myself and trying to learn to read tje game better.
- I find it boring.
I don't believe tunneling is the best way to win, but it is a lazy and less stressful way to play. It doesn't require much thought or map knowledge or ability to read survivors to do.
Slugging is actually very stressful cause you have a lot to track. It is also often not efficient, and tends to be just playing in a lame way for the same of playimg in a lame way. I'm pretty sure this slugging wave started from players like Choy and Tru Talent protesting the 70s hook change and everyone has followed suit.
My opinion on both sides, is play what is fun and play how you'd like players to play against you. If you want to sweat and play nasty all the time to win in the most obnoxious way you can, no one can stop you... but you make this game suck more than you need to just for the sake of it, which makes everyone else play in ways that suck too.
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There are some exceptions that should probably be addressed, but generally their place is to make it so that tiles are safer/stronger at the start for survivors, but is something the killer can take time to break to weaken at their earliest convenience to level out the strength of said tile.
I don't think breakable walls are inherently a bad thing like some claim, they are a tool im the map balance toolbox that can be used well or can be used badly. I think generally they serve their role well.
However the only real exception that stands out to me is Nurse and trap killers, who rarely want to break walls to ensure fewer avenues for tiles, while benefitting themselves. In this regard I rather like them.
I do feel like for example the new Haddonfield would benefit from breakable walls. If the buildings are all gonna have these killer drop off points that make windows completely useless, at least having them be breakable walls first so the survivors get one strong use out of each building window before that is broken to give time to get a foothold in the trial would be an improvement.
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@fixblitzskin said:
FNAF is the first property in this game I know before playing. Im 23 but never played one of the games or watched the movies of the licenses. Wasn’t a fan of movies and the video games I did play were more gta, open worlds and shooters not puzzle solving survival horror. It is only recent I played RE and watched some of the movies that are in this game but I still haven’t on a lot. I play bubba alot but I never seen any of the movies. FNAF has been here since I was in 6 th or 7th grade so super excited about this chapter. Wasn’t too excited for DND castlevania or Tokyo ghoul but that doesn’t matter knowing FNAF is coming.
Boi! You got some learning to do 🤘
Texas Chainsaw Massacre is a great start 😁
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Huh... yeah I suppose that is a problem...
With my autistic level of perk knowledge, this has never occurred to me as an issue... but I suppose for those who aren't overly obsessive DBD dorks, it does make sense as a problem to tackle xD
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
Sounds fine to me. Counterweight is just detrimental in every way and has no practical purpose. Your suggestion would be a much better and more fun alternative.
Arigato-gozeimasu sir!
We need the return of those big balls Chillbillys that everyone loved 🤘😁🤘
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3899156#Comment_3899156
You also have to keep in mind that the game did not launch with SWF being an option. It was added later.
Ideally what i think needs to be done is split them up into 2 different modes. Let SWF be the "ranked" mode, and make it so the "normal mode" only allows you to play with 1 other person, and matchmaking sets it up so that its always 4 randos, or 1 team of 2 with 2 other randos. That way you can still play with 1 other friend at least, but you don't get the massive coordination that you get with a team of 4.
Then for the ranked mode, they could balance it differently like they do current game modes with different gen times, items, maps, perks, addons, whatever, and the only way to play ranked as a survivor is with a 4 stack.
Then they can have the ranked mode actually show, you know, your rank. And the normal mode is just for funsies.
I always liked the idea of community cup for a ranked mode.
5 players a side, 4 survivors and a killer. You get a pool of killers to pick from for each match, the same map spawn, only 1 copy of each perk/item add-on per side, and most hook stages win.
I've also liked the idea of SWF not being allowed more than 1 copy of a perk through their team, as a standard rule. People often say "punishing SWF", but I don't see that as a punishment, I see that as a simple rule change that encourages tactically creating a team build, and making SWF more interesting overall.