UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898933#Comment_3898933
The entire game is designed around survivors being thrown together, not knowing who each other are, and making decisions with imperfect information.
The problem with the game is not that solo queue is bad, the problem is that SWF (and specifically discord) breaks the game in a way that fundamentally makes the game impossible to balance or design around the original idea of the game.
Can't argue with any of that...
Since I started playing I've always preferred SoloQ because it felt like the authentic gaming experience.
Playing with friends is fun, and I do do it time to time, but the call outs tend to make everything feel like we're going through the motions, and the only results are absolutely smashing the killer, or playing against something uber sweaty. The social aspect is fun, but the gameplay is pretty boring.
The potential problem with your ranked mode idea is it still creates this balance split, the game still has to be balanced for SWF, and most killers given the choice would prefer to play vs. Solos instead of SWF. So you'll get some who want to climb the ranks... but most would just play in unranked, and a fair few will exploit that fact to just beat up on solo's with meta.
You could try and have balance changes for both modes, but that gets messy very quickly, and most games that have done that have found its untenable.
So sadly I don't think there is a neat solution for the SWF problem.... though as I think aboitbit content creators would promote ranked as the highest levels of play, so that might help mitigate the problem a little.
The cleanest solution would probably be to inform players of certain effects being in play on that player, similar to how thing like Bite the Bullet do, on a case by case basis... such as:
- Deliverance
- Wicked
- Decisive Strike
- Autodidact
However that does require BHVR to be Johnny on the spot fir each perk... so I figured a player driven self share once the trial starts is probably an easier way to manage that.
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@buggybug said:
Am honestly one of those that want the old one back, the only change he needed and nothing else was to be 115 but bvhr for idk what reason touch everything. Revert him back and let him.stay 115, why should artist who's power is way stronger be 115?
Hmmmm... I'm more inclined for old Trickster, though the only issue he had really was that he had no reason to leave the hook...
He has slow map traversal at 4.4, and he was far better off getting close to popping his Main Event as he downed someone, then simply camp the hook, hit knives on the trade and Main Event one or both players down. I'd not make him 4.6m/s myself, but instead address this camping aspect of him.
Something like giving him an excitement mechanic when he downs or hooks a survivor. This could be a temporary haste boost while not in chase, based on his current Main Event charges, then have it so after so long not hitting knives on survivors, his Main Event slowly decreases in charges as Trickster gets bored.
This would encourage him to leave hook and go charge up/spend his ult while he has the charges on hand, solving his map traversal issues and giving him a pretty strong reason to leave hook for more victims.
Extra props if his TR or Lullaby gets more bombastic with more layers as he gets more and more charges.
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Fat fingered Post early... 😒😒😒
Editted and Corrected now; apologies any early viewers 😁
But additional note:
It would also let drift Billy's come back, cause trying to do that with Overdrive is basically impossible. Drift King Billy's were super cool, hilariously terrifying and in no way unfair or overpowered... please bring them back 😢
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I can't tell you how badly I want tutorials for:
- Don't loop the killer near hook.
- Don't take chase from the killer and move generally towards hook, key gens, or slugs.
- Don't unhook within 20s of someone being hooked.
- Don't trade when you have >30 seconds on the hook timer.
- Stay on gens for a moment when someone is hooked... and for the love of God use the HUD...
- Do all of the above with extra sauce if ypu have players on Death Hook.
- Hide and play safe when on Death Hook.
- Split up as far as possible when the killer is slugging.
- Save strong pallets for as long as possible, paying close attention especially to teammate hook states.
The number of aneurysms I'd have would drastically reduce 😒😒😒
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To be honest, as someone who plays SoloQ for majority of my game time, I feel like auras is a lazy way of bridging the SoloQ and SWF gap. Making decisions with imperfect information is an aspect of the game I really like.
For example you can take an aura perk on a killer to make finding people much easier, but you have to forgo slowdown or assistance at loops for the privilege.
For Survivor, you can with a bit of thought and carefully paying attention, derive pretty much all the information you need just intuiting it from HUD. Auras in this scenario give more precise information, but it comes at the cost of not having anti-slug, anti-tunnel, help in chase or faster gen/heal speeds... the value of aura perks comes from the fact that at basekit your info is good, but not great/perfect.
The immediate problem with this suggestion of giving basekit auras is so many perks become immediately redundant. Empathy, Alert, Empathic Connection, Better Together, the list goes on...
However the real issue with a change such as this is giving free access to basekit auras is dumbing down the game... you can't get around this fact, you are reducing the Survivors need to pay attention and read the trial around them.
Some people may want that, as their only interest is chase... but players like myself who are much more tactically minded (and lack the raw skill/ability) find their success through more my ability to read the game. The question you're gonna have to answer, is "is dumbing down the game a good thing, and how much do you want the game to be dumbed down?". If you grant auras at basekit, you remove the skill of game sense and having to read the trial since everyone just has it at base, and thus you take away the primary skill of people like myself that allows us to shine.
The HUD to my mind was one of the best additions to this game. It is subtle enough that it doesnt guve you perfect information and sometimes you may read thw trial incorrectly, but its effective enough that you can use it greatly enhance your ability to interpret the state of the trial.
The only thing missing is there are certain effects that you need to be shown to teammates via the HUD when they are in play.
I would opt for all perks to be hidden by default, but have the option to share them when in the trial, this would mean you can show part or all of your build to teammates, or you can keep your build hidden. Since the perks are hidden by default, the benefit of the doubt assumption is this player hasn't got round to exposing their perks, or has only bothered to show the important ones.
At this point I think the info SoloQ needs is basically fulfilled, and aura perks are not a requirement, but do have their value in the game.
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I'd say probably wouldn't be busted no... as long as the efficiency is a reasonable number.
The changes for healing over the years are to try and ensure that survivors are typically better off healing each other altruistically instead of themselves, which makes sense for a game where you're trying to really enforce the asym idea of working together but having this measured trade off about trying to save yourself.
The immediate concern is combining this with Botany Knowledge and Self Care, since you have a skillset that circumvents this core design principle...
However this isn't particularly strong, it's about the same value as just taking the brown add-on charges on a medkit anyway, and altruistic healing with things like We'll Make It are far more appealing.
I think this is probably the most well measured buff you could give Self-Care.
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Which killer(s) are we talking aboit in this thread regarding 4 man slugging and hardcore camping/tunneling?
Cause if it's Nurse, Blight, Hillbilly, Spirit, Twins etc... fair enough.
If it's Myers, Legion, Clown, Bubba, Pig, etc... then skill issue.
Slugging the whole team to death with a none mobile m1 killer doesn't work unless the survivors mess up and allow it. Same for hardcore tunneling, if you use the 70s hook timers fully to your advantage you can completely mess up basic killers.
However yes, the highly mobile, highly lethal killers can do these things and are kinda lame for doing so... so context is important in this discussion.
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I still have faith!
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@Caiman said:
I don't know why so many people are bothered over Kaneki. I'm not a Tokyo Ghoul fan but it's definitely a horror-themed manga and anime. I like his inclusion more than Trickster and Skull Merchant, though I do admit his tentacles look a little funny.
Still not a fan of Vecna either but that's mostly because I dislike his design, being the chewed-up piece of grape gum he is. I wanted a straight-up skeleton.
Tbh, I think his inclusion is fine...
I think the only thing that irks me at all (and it's a small nitpick), is Kaneki looks a little too clean in DBD... he looks like he just strolled off the mangas front cover... all clean and tidy, no rips in his clothes or dirt on his shoes...
He looks like he's come from an anime, not the real world... like the man's been in the make up room for a couple of hours before strolling into the trial... a bit of dirt and grime would do a lot to not make him stick out quite as much. 😅
EDIT: I'm also not sure about this red glow when he's enraged... feels a bit arcadey to me. I've not got huge range of reference, but I think a faint red mist coming off him (like a more subtle Oni thing) or something would work better.
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Cope uses a PlayStation controller on his PC setup and his movement is insanely clean. So he's a great guy to watch.
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Gonna basically copy pasta my response from elsewhere:
Tbh, you can't really "fix" totem spawns.
You might be able to hide "some" of them a little better, but that requires adding additonal clutter to obscure them in the map, but that can make them obvious in of itself... humans are good at recognising patterns, and the tricks you'd employ to hide them will also be figured out passively over time.
The real issue is after you've been playing for so long you start to learn totem spawn locations passively. I only have about 2000 hrs, and even I have approximately 3 hex totems spawns passively memorised for each map, with a pretty decent general idea of the kinds of locations they spawn as well for most others, and I'm getting better at it all the time.
The best solution to my mind rrwork all hexes to only light the hex totem when it gains a token or it's effect is revealed. The only exceptions being Haunted Ground and Retribution, which illuminate automatically when another hex is illuminated, or after 60s, whichever comes first. That at least gives the killer a chance to setup/defend their hexes and get some use from at the start of the match.
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@XDgamer018 said:
Yeah hex totems are a real issue tbh (imo they should either be blocked for 30-60 seconds or only light up when their respective needs are met. bc we all know they wont fix their spawns. (not to forget they are a gamble they either get cleansed first min into the game or they win you the game.
Tbh, you can't really "fix" their spawns.
You might be able to hide "some" of them a little better, but that requires adding additonal clutter to obscure them in the map, which in turn makes them obvious in of themselves.
The real issue is after you've been playing for so long you learn totem spawn locations passively. I only have about 2000 hrs, and even I have approximately 3 hex totems spawns passively memorised for each map, with a pretty decent general idea of the kinds of locations they spawn as well.
The best solution to my mind only light the hex totem when it gains a token or it's effect is revealed. The one exceptions being Haunted Ground and Retribution, which illuminates automatically when another hex is illuminated, or after 60s, whichever comes first.
Regarding OP:
Yes you will face teams like this now and again. Getting bullied by strong survivors in general is rough, and a 4 stack doing it is especially rough.
I see it as a right of passage, nd its an important experience to have if you wanna play killer. If you can keep your cool and put up a good fight vs. these kind of players, that's when you can say you're really getting the hang of the game.
A lot of people turn this into an arms race, and play things so strong that things like this can't ever happen, but to me that is boring. Defining yourself as a non meta main and playimg your game is where the fun of DBD lies, and when you go against the occasional sweat squad, that's where you really start to learn your character.
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Yes! YES!!! MOOOOOOOOOORE!
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@fixblitzskin said:
I have fun by making niche or meh perks work on specific killers and addons. I don’t have much fun running 4 slowdown perks.
Ditto, same for playing survivor.
I refuse to take exhaustion perks (except Head On or Smash Hit), and I don't allow myself iri add-ons on items (and often don't even take an item).
Is fun trying to come up with builds and learning all the strange little quirks and intricate details of the game for me...
But if your goal is win hard and you play hardcore every game, this game gets old pretty quickly in my opinion.
Like I look at a 5 gen left with max slowdown as a max slugging/tunneling Blight, or a 4 man escape with 2 hooks on a hardcore SWF with Commodius+BNPs and Medkits with syringes and full meta builds, and can't help but laugh when those players act like they're the hot #########... game would get real boring real fast running that for me 😅
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Prior to Chucky, this is a interesting suggestion, but post Chucky… this is definitely his thing, and probably shouldn't be stolen for Amanda (as awesome as it would be) ^🐽^
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3895314#Comment_3895314
Now this is a topic for discussion.
…always supporting narrowing the PC/console divide…
I can totally agree with this. But my question for this is if narrowing the gap between the two harms the game/character, when is it too much?
If this oni thing is solely due to console vs M&kb, the end result would be console having what they already have, and PC getting less.
There is no net gain in this equation, and as someone who doesn't play Oni but has a few Oni friends, this kind of sucks.
Thoughts?
Aye, that's my thinking, I always expected that if this bug was ever fixed, something would be worked into Oni to make it partially basekit.
Something a little more restrained and reasonable than a full 180 flick, but decent and strong that both platforms get to benefit from...
Instead PC got brought down to my level on console... and that leaves me baffled, cause console Oni is pretty ass 😶
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Hmmmm... I'm not sure gents. I do see where @PetTheDoggo is coming from...
I am a console player, always supporting narrowing the PC/console divide, so am I happy to see the flicka gone...
However I have played my share of console Oni... and when you have killers with unrestricted access to their power like Nurse, Blight, Billy, and I have a feeling the Ghoul is gonna be in a similar camp... a killer like Oni who is literally the most basic of m1 killers until he gets his power, his power has to be really good when he gets it...
I am certainly not an Oni expert, but handling that turn lock, especially on controller, is really rough and frustrating against decent survivors on any kind of remotely tight tiles... A lot of the time you simply can't get a hit, which leaves the power in a place where it doesn't feel as impactful as it should be for the work you need to put in…
While I'm no fan of BS 180 degree flicks... the fact he's been given nothing to improve him leaves Oni with this pretty sizable question mark of why bother playing him over other killers?
Like even Chucky has an OK stealth and unique mindgames at tiles thanks to his small size, even with his slide and dice power in flux... but Oni is literally a discount Hillbilly without some kind of improvement after the loss of his flicks.
Though to be fair, it would be nice to have max turn speed at base for demon strike on controller Oni... and/or individual turn speeds for different killer powers in general separate from your normal sensitivity.
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@DestroyerBG said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894576#Comment_3894576
I will also add up the fact that his iri coin add has a chance to not work at all if you catch the survivor just at the end of your spear cause they got plenty of time to get out before he can actually hit them I had such thing happen once I literally could not reel them in fast enough before the chain break I tried hitting but nope it is 1 second before the status dissapears so they get scot free with one hit
Such a tease when you nail a hit at range 😭
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@Clevarz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894630#Comment_3894630
Win or Lose I always say GG
Sure, not saying it's wrong, and is your prerogative to do so, but I bet you get the occasional "BG" or "no not a GG" response, don't you? 😏
The reason is because you're communicating in text, therefore people don't have the ability to read your facial expressions or body language, so when they're frustrated at how the game has gone, they will, occasionally, read your "GG" as being a snide and arrogant comment as I've described above.
It's easy to write them off as just a baby or a rage head, and to be fair, decent chance you're right… but even the best of us get riled up from time to time, and when you're already raging, it's quite difficult to not get the wrong idea and bite someone's head off when they "GG" a clearly one sided game…
So you do you man, but that is the risk you take ^^
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@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894423#Comment_3894423
Deathbound and Hysteria sound fun to use together. Especially since Trapper can damage Survivors from across the map. Thank you for chiming in and sharing the build 😊
You can disable my traps… but you won't see me coming 😈
No worries ^^
Was a bit of a rush post, but yeah, you get the idea, it makes it so that disabling your traps is actually not at all a bad thing for Trapper, and because you keep sowing Oblivious, it makes it harder for people to track where you're setting them.You can of course also take the Iridescent Stone instead of Trapper's Bag to have more traps up for people to break… I just love the flexibility and quicker start that Trapper's Bag brings.
Sneaky Trapper is fun ^^
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Console doesnt have to worry about such things... but if I could, I'm more of a fan of say nothing personally.
- Doesn't risk riling anyone up
- Doesn't start any arguments
- Doesn't take any bait
- Doesn't risk myself having a bad day and saying something curt or provocative
- No risk of being banned
Plus I always felt like saying "GG" from the winning position, especially when emotions are running high, is just asking for trouble.
- At best the reaction will be in kind.
- The average will be a begrudged/cold acceptance/response.
- The worst case you will be interpretted with this kind of energy:
Better when winning to stay quiet in my opinion unless someone offers you a GG first.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893939#Comment_3893939
Huntress has 24 meters. And a lullaby so stealth is not as impactful on her.
But even though all that is true, Deathslinger's TR should be 28 meters, or less.
I agree Slinger feels like he's on a short end of the stick, I don't think TR is the right way to buff him though.
Regarding TR based thing, the difference of the 2 is Huntress has a much better one-two punch knockdown ability that Slinger just doesn't have due to her quick hatchet throw recovery, thus she has her lullaby to limit her ability to make use of Undetectable perks. Slinger on the other hand CAN use Undetectable perks quite well, and given the speed of his projectile, a good Slinger with undetectable can be pretty game defining.
That said, the combination of weaknesses he has: -
- 4.4m/s for poor looping and map traversal.
- 32m Terror Radius and relatively tall profile giving vulnerability to pre-running and voice comms.
- Long recovery times after each use of power (hit or miss).
- Relatively long to injure time for each use of power.
- Down not guaranteed on power hits at certain tiles.
- Very vulnerable to body blocking, with ample time for Survivors to do it.
- Limited range of 18m.
It's clear he just has more hoops to jump through than Huntress. He does have add-ons and perk options to address some of these problems but I don't think TR changes really address these issues for him (a SWF on voice comms is still gonna give him just as much grief even if you lower his TR).
Obviously we've also got the issue that Deep Wounds has also been repeatedly nerfed for him, and it was already a meh part of his kit, because unlike Legion, it's rare you want to drop chase to hit and run on Slinger; he doesn't have the kind of action economy/map traversal to allow it, even if he finds 2 players at once.
Off top of my head, I'd almost be tempted to suggest adding one or multiple of these feature: -
- Making a greater than 12m shot at basekit should just down an injured survivor.
- Let his harpoon go through players and hit multiple targets. (If he skewers both, he can still only melee one, but it prevents the other from making distance if the team is body blocking for them).
- Give him a double shot, where he basically has a single rapid reload on a miss and/or a hit cancel to fire 2 shots in quick succession. (Unrelenting could allow for him to cancel a tag he doesn't want for another shot pretty quickly).
I feel like something like these would make him stand out a bit more from Huntress, rather than make him more homogenous to her with a smaller TR.
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I rather like: -
- Bloody Coil
- Trapper's Bag
- Hysteria
- Deathbound
- Corrupt Intervention
- Free Choice (Nowhere to Hide or Barbeque and Chilli maybe?)
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893721#Comment_3893721
Thought they were testing stuff.
Like, two bots and no bonuses. One bot and a 300% bonus. No bots and 400% etc etc
@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893721#Comment_3893721
Only after ignoring mountains of negative feedback about them before and during the event, on top of killer queue times being just as long as they were before. If the killer queue times had improved more they probably would have ignored the feedback. Tracks with their usual pattern of screw survivors.
OK gents, that's just blatantly unfair.
They let it run, saw it didn't reduce queue times as intended and changed it. After they tried the 3 different systems they found that having 1 bot in lobbies reduced queue times the most.
- 2 bots was ~13 mins queue times
- 1 bot was ~10 mins queue times
- 0 bots was ~11 mins queue times
So BHVR were actually right... bots were the best method to reduce queue times. Yet even though 1 bot was the most effective, they stuck with 0 bots based on player feedback, and extended the event from player feedback with the player preferred choice.
What exactly do you want from BHVR? They have millions of very uninformed voices screaming their opinions on everything. They have to try and objectively assess all of our stupid little opinions against the most objective data they can define... and even if their objective data is right, they still listened to their player base over what the data showed. What more realistically can you ask for?
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@Wezqu said:
There is already. Red Twine does that as Totems are part of killer belongings. Rainbow Map also has it automatically.
@LockerLurk said:
Can't Rainbow Maps and Bloodsense maps do this already?
Was gonna say the same thing... also Green map with Detective's Hunch does it as well.
Totem tracking is literally the best feature of Maps. 😅
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Tbh I disagree...
Players who SoH at the start of the game irritates me way more than being tunneled or slugged ever has.
There is also the argument of the "Go Next" feature is a delicate feature, so you should probably change as little as possible while implementing it to appropriately measure its impact.
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@burt0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893727#Comment_3893727
Strange, it never has been a real problem when survivor ruined killer challenges or achievements by early hook exits. /S
EDIT: /S!!! I suck, my bad that man, carry on.
You say that, but then there is Evil Incarnate and sacrifice all 4 survivors in basement... also sacrifice 2 survivors during EGC in a single game...
Those are pretty dire if Survivors try to deny them... I'd call that a problem.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893512#Comment_3893512
Let's try it your way then, despite the fact we've been doing it your way since DC penalties got added. Let's double-down on punishing players.
Where does it stop? At what point do you say, yeah, maybe we should address underlying causes. How long are you willing to chase this idea for? Clearly, suicides are going to get removed. The next logical step for people is to either run to the Killer or to stop trying. How do you intend to police that?
To extend an olive branch, I do understand there are annoying things in the game, and I do support those issues being fixed. These underlying issues do need to be addressed…
However, there is also this childish and entitled element of the community where people just rsge quit and ruin games through zero provacation. I've seen players try to SoH on my 3rd chase, after looping me at 2 tiles, 3 gens left, when I've moonwalk m1 swinged at a tile with Pig... a genuine mind game, perfectly fair m1 hit, and as honest as DBD gameplay can be... you can even see videos all over the plave of people fumbling a pallet save or screwing each other up with a duo flashlight save, and they just quit.
What "underlying cause" can possibly be addressed here? Quitting like this is itself an underlying cause of frustration in the playerbase. What kind of carrots can you dangle to fix this scenario? Cause the only way other than punishing players who quit for these scenatios is nerf killers to the point of being NPCs.
I've maintained for a while now that you don't need harsh punishments, all you need is to make leaving more annoying than playing the game out.
If the player wants to run to the Killer and get themselves killed, the killer is the one who grants them the ability to leave. It polices itself, because the killer can decide to ignore them, or slug them, or whatever. It becomes more annoying to try and leave than it does to just play the game.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893348#Comment_3893348
No. You are just wrong on that.
Simplifying it down to "if you leave, you're a selfish ######### and if you stay you are a good person" is a joke and lets BHVR off the hook for continuing to push unfun mechanics.
DC'ing and hook suiciding wasn't this bad even PRIOR to the DC penalty. That tells me something has changed between then and now.
We should TRY to make matches worth playing. We should TRY to encourage BHVR to actually innovate and change DBD's gameplay loop (which has remained the same since EGC SIX YEARS AGO). We should REWARD players who stick it out by giving them BP/Shards. We should TRY to reduce burnout. We should TRY to encourage BHVR to make Killer designs that don't suck to play against.
I don't think I can really be wrong on that can I? I'm talking about my own and other people's opinions and perspectives.
I hold myself to a standard where I try to my best to support my team and win, no matter what, I endeavour to not throw my team under the bus by quitting, no matter how mad I get at whatever the killer is doing or playing.
A player who does quit, knows they are throwing their team under the bus, but they put their own anger and frustration first.
I'm not their boss or their parents, I can't tell them what to do, however when I hold that standard of myself, I believe that gives me a right to condemn a player who doesn't. I'm also not arrogant enough to think my condemnation matters. Even if these players who quit were made aware of the fact I look down on them and consider them selfish for leaving, they are well within their rights to tell me to go dip my head in a bucket.
The thing is, I'm not alone in my opinion. I do not tolerate leavers because I do not allow myself to leave and condemn the game for my survivor teammates, and there are a lot of players who believe the same thing. If you are likely to tilt and quit, you shouldn't be playing. Stop ruining it for everyone else.
If you want to be a leaver apologist, fine, you're entitled to be. I was pointing out why myself and people like me disagree and push back against you. They are not entitled to my sympathy, as I said, I'm playing the same game they are, so there is no excuse, especially when they are willing to throw me under the bus with their actions.
To my mind, there is no excuse to quit at the start of the game, and doing so makes that player a hypocrite, because whatever thing pissed them off to make them want to quit, they are willing doing the exact same thing to other players themselves.
That is my point of view, and the point of view of many players across all of gaming and sports. The game isn't over until it's over, and anyone who quits is almost never someone to be admired, supported or made excuses for. In pretty much every gaming circle, they tend to be shunned.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893327#Comment_3893327
If you lack so much empathy that you can't understand how multiple matches like what I described is a HUGE issue with game design and negatively impact players, perhaps it's you who needs a break. Instead, you'd rather punish players for a BHVR issue.
Can't break it down more simply than this:
What you see in the video is a SYMPTOM of repeated poor design. Blaming people for being frustrated when mechanics are intentionally frustrating is ludicrous. Blaming them after years of feedback was given on how frustrating/annoying/unfun/etc etc a mechanic and/or a Killer is; well, it's downright unfair.
People have given feedback that tunneling is an issue for years. Same with proxy'ing, same with slugging. All of those have been functionally ignored until now. People have been giving feedback that the new maps are atrocious and that map reworks just make things worse. Ignored. People have been lamenting the design of newer Killers being, by and large, unpleasant for Survivors to face. That's been largely ignored.
When you ignore feedback from the majority of your player-base, consistently, I don't think you get to act shocked when people get fed up with the exact things they've been giving you feedback about.
I think the reason a lot of people (such as loud mouths like me) do lack that empathy is we're all playing the same game too...
These players are all facing the same annoying things as everyone else, we all on both sides have to eat our share of annoying games... By quitting like this, these players are increasing the pool of annoyimg games for everyone else too. They're taking a pretty firm position of "screw everyone else, I'm out". There is no real other way to interpret it.
You don't get to pick and choose when to apply a principle. You're either pro leaver, or anti leaver. Yes, we understand burnout and frustration are factors to empathise with... but there are other players in the game. I have myself gotten a game I'd rather get out of, usually as a result of dire teammates, but I still suck it up and do my best for the other players in my team as useless as they can be... that's what it means to have integrity, and a player who doesn't demonstrate that integrity is right to be called out on it.
I myself have had bad days on DBD where I've been repeatedly screwed over and gotten upset and frustrated... I will even admit there have been occasions where I've even quit, but it is extremely rare, and the times I have quit have been the result of my teammates doing something inexcusable bad to screw me over... and my justification in those moments have been "well, you screwed me, so screw you". That isn't great, but it's understandable and is an extreme outlier.
Losing a chase early and instant quitting is inexcusable, no matter how burned out and frustrated you are, cause you basically pass that burnout and frustration into everyone else and amplify the problem for all...
I think that's why I tend push back hard on this point of yours. If a player knows they're ruining games for other players, why continue to play, unless they just don't care?
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As someone who believes turrets are fine if placed well, it does seem strange that now a well placed turret is no longer likely help you vs. Xeno, and you're basically forced to lead the Xeno to your teammates on gens or face the tail... and of course it does nothing vs. Double stacking turrets.
We'll see on the PTB but I feel like if the frustrations are that turrets are unreliable for Survivors and double stacking for Xeno, I'd consider: -
- Changing the Helmet add-ons that reduces turret range completely, don't tamper with this value with add-ons and balance it accordingly (as it will always be a required add-on otherwise).
- Reduces the hindered effect from 35% →25% while carrying a turret so it's not quite so cumbersome to set up. Also an "instant drop" would also be nice.
- Getting hit by two flame turrets still counts up burn at the same rate as one (66 c/s).
Turrets should be placed with forethought and care, and should be rewarding to do so for a solo player, without greater benefitting SWF.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893130#Comment_3893130
I should downvote you, sir!
(Disclaimer for the mods: We are friends.)^🐽^ 👉🐽
In seriousness, I imagine it's just blunders. As someone who works developing global software tools, it's a common problem in Britain (and Canada I assume) where we have to file bugs for not using American English in documentation or external APIs 😁
Of course some of us stubbornly hide English-English comments in the code when no one is looking or when naming internal variables 😏
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@WolfePhD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893199#Comment_3893199
I agree with you, but we are a minority here on the forums. The game doesn’t do a good job at communicating that to players. Players themselves have to take initiative to learn counterplay. For some, that is too much work into a game they only play now and then.
Fair point, and yes, I do agree that the ability to learn/study mechanics in this game is difficult...
However in the same breathe, I only started playing DBD 22 months ago, I've gone through the modern day DBD learning iceberg personally myself, and in my opinion modern online video gaming is very hard in general, and you go into it knowing its hard. For every game now worth playing, you do have to put in time to learn the game.
As an example, I've been playing Marvel Rivals lately, and that game seems very pick up and play, and there are characters like Jonny Storm or Scarlet Witch or Spiderman who seem absolutely broken and stupidly easy to new players...
However if you do some research and really learn how they and the game works, you come to realise they aren't actually that strong at all, in fact they are actually quite bad. Anything that seems "broken" is quite often just a knowledge gap... and I personally believe too many players in modern gaming are quick to ahout "busted", when they should instead humble themselves and make a genuine attempt to learn before reaching that conclusion.
That's a pipe dream I realise, but in regards to learning how to beat killers, there are numerous videos and guides available that are very easy to find, and while something like this could be added to the game, a step by step how-to for each killer seems a bit weird as a feature...
That said I see no harm in allowing players to trial killers in a private game to at least see first hand how their power works... that would be a nice feature to address the problem.
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i spend half the match in the bushes healing myself or others which is always boring as hell
This is your mistake right here. Stop healing vs. Legion.
Their power is basically useless if everyone is injured, and being injured vs Legion is less dangerous than just looping against tier 3 Myers, since Myers also has a longer lunge and faster vaults.
Legion is fine and a opt out of a killer system doesn't need to and shouldn't exist... as the Skull Merchant debacle shows, it gives a tool for mass boycotting to cut a killers achilles tendons.
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I think a more productive variation of this idea would be to specify a killer you're looking for as a preference. Not a guarantee by any means, but if there is one available gives you a slight weighting to Tey and get a killer you're after.
Might help with that Vecna achievement for example. Though the obvious downside is sniping and targeted bully squads... so maybe not...
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Sadly the game industry standard tends to be the inferior filthy colonial version of English... but outside of the game we use proper English 😏😏😏😏
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892574#Comment_3892574
That would get quite abit of hate for applying to ppl who use DS.
True, though in fairness, it does only apply to m1's... less useful for Billy, Nurse and Blight, and a lot of the prolific tunnelers are m2 killers.
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@Brokenbones already nailed it. Thana is easy to deny with a little common sense.
6 seconds of mending is not worth constantly going for hits, Legion just loses the game that way, they have to commit at some point to get downs, at which point they are just a basic m1 killer with literally 0 anti loop.
The fatigue buff might help them block a window or pallet, but any survivor who knows what they're doing is still gonna handle it fine.
Legion is a pretty solid skill barometer for DBD. If you get beaten often by a Legion, it shows you have a lot to improve upon in your macro gameplay and basic looping skills. Instead of just sitting in the "We hate Legion" camp, you'd be better served treating Legion as a boot camp to develop your fundamentals at DBD.
They are far less annoying when you look at them that way.
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887698#Comment_3887698
That Pig is a rare breed. Bless them…When I encounter Pigs as a surv it usually ends up being ones that play similar to @UndeddJester and if you boop them once, they will leave but then it is fair game afterwards when they see you. I'll die to boop a pig because every single one of you is special to me for even being able to stick through so much of a rollercoaster of a character lol. The highs are insane but the lows are way low, like Jester and @CountOfTheFog were discussing.
Interestingly enough, I feel like early game is the perfect time to boop pig because its early and it gets to set the tone if that Pig is going to want to deal with your ######### or not that match…haha. If its a Black Jacket tho, watch out because they looking to fight and only know how to inflict pain 1000 different ways…😅
If you see a Black Jacket Pig... you better get steppin'
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@MarbleThrone said:
It needs a new name now, because nothing in the new effect has anything to do with being 'knocked out' 🤔.
Agreed... I'd have thought after downing someone with an m1, apply all the temporary effects (blindness, recovery speed, etc, and alike) and have them stay even if the survivor is returned to the injured state (via FTP or saves). Instead of crawl speed, give a hinder instead for the same duration.
This would mean if the killer instant picks up and there is a save from their teammate, their teammate is still blinded, reduced vision and hindered when they atand up, and likely that teammate still needs to body block hard for them to reach safety, because the saved survivor is still "groggy" from the hit.
This would fit "Knockout" much better.
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Pig got buffed?
PIG GOT BUFFED!?
No quiet background nerf!? NOTHING!?!?
SOUND THE ALARM!
CHECK FOR THE OTHER HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE!!!!!
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@Cataca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891729#Comment_3891729
As People have pointed out Hag could teleport back then so Jason definitely could
I've always hated Jason teleport in the Ft13th game, because I don't personally attribute Jason to having the ability to teleport at all. I consider a teleport to be a cheat on Jason, same as I do Myers. It's never expressly shown, and if they genuinely had a teleport, there are far too many examples where it doesn't make sense they wouldn't use it to catch their respective last girls, and it harms the original films too much.
Any instance he could be said to teleport is pretty much the result of schlock writing in the later films to my mind. Their ability to pop out of nowhere is always portrayed as having uncanny stealth and the ability to perfectly stalk and predict their prey... but as I say, it's dependent on the skill of the writer/editor as to how much sense it makes.
Pretty much everything from Jason in Manhattan onwards to me is sequel slop that harm's the original idea to the point I basically consider it a goofy mess that might be fun, but has to be non-canon. Also screw Part 5 as well.
Jason X was actually decent prior to RoboJason, and his portrayal in Freddy vs. Jason was very good. No real jokes at his expense... if they made Freddy less slapstick comedy and took him more seriously, that film would be one of the best Jason movies ever made.
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I feel like Jason's lacknof a real MO would mean he would have to be a stealth killer with some kind of grab that has a limited time to interact with objects nearby for different effects.
- Crunch Survivors into gens to injure and break the gen.
- Slam them through a dropped pallet to injure and break the pallet.
- Throw an undropped pallet on top of them to injure and break a pallet.
- Hit their head in a locker door to instant-down/instant pick them up.
- Throw them over his head through a window to the other side to injure them and hinder them for a short time.
- Chokeslam straight to the floor if nothing else is nearby or the grab is cancelled to injure for no additional effect.
Having unique interactions to exploit the world around him to injure and maim is the thing that makes sense to me for Jason and his huge repertoire of different kills.
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I don't think NOED needs to change really, and if you were to pursue this idea, it'd be better as a new perk.
So looking at just the perk element of your suggestion, your big issue is that a permanent haste does a lot to reduce mind games (It was the same problem for MFT for survivors), and allows Killers to brute force an m1 hit… this flat 10% would already be a concern on it's own, but it also has absurd synergy with PWYF, and naturally becomes even worse if you somehow survived to the point of Bloodlust… it wouldn't be uncommon to see killers running around with an additional 20-30% haste (10% from new NOED, 5%-15% from 1-3s stacks of PWYF, and 5% from Bloodlust) stacking these perks, and all your looping/mind game skill becomes kinda meaningless since the killer is just charging after you at 5.52m/s - 5.98m/s.
For reference, Legion's initial Feral Frenzy is 5.2m/s, after 2 hits is 5.6m/s, after 4 hits its 6.0m/s… this build would turn every killer into a Legion without needing to build up hits to down… I don't think it'd be very popular. ^^
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To be honest I'm a little on the fence about it... because it's biggest issue is that it's value is reliant on Survivors using the time it gives to do gens, and the Killer deciding to hover around hook. If those things happen, the value of Camaraderie is already pretty big...
However if those things don't happen, the value of the perk is naturally limited, (and we see how the 70s hook changes, which is a massive change, is barely used at all), so it's natural inconsistency is what hurts the perk.
SWFs of course can force the issue and use this to their advantage. Looping near the hook is normally a throw, as you allow the killer to camp at the same time as occupying a Survivor, and any killer would accept this... so I dont think this affect is anywhere near as weak as people make out... in SWF.
However... that said, it is pretty trash in SoloQ. Thus I think @Shroompy is onto it with giving soloQ an indication its in play. That's a pretty substantial buff IF survivors use it, and it gives similar value of Reassurance in a tunnel situation, without the other survivor having to get very close to the hook to activate it.
In regards to any other buffs…
- Uses on both hook stages isn't an awful idea, but it may need dropping back to 20s or so, because 34s when things like Deli and Wicked can be used is starting to get a little nutty for SWF with the point above.
- 32m range is probably fine, though not much impact, as 16m range is already easy to trigger. With an indicator it's in play this would be an OK, but largely indifferent buff.
So I suppose I feel a lot of the suggestions here are a bit too much or don't really help the perk... but making soloQ aware of the perk being in play would be porentiallt huge. Alsobif the sacrifice progress bar on HUD turned white while paused by either Reassurance or Camaraderie, that would be pretty nice for assistance encouraging the work on gens.
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The problem with Xeno is you are punished so hard when you miss a swing of the tail (1.2m/s for 3s), that often you don't even want to try unless you're really sure... made worse by sometimes getting screwed by terrain.
Nemesis is 1.15m/s for 2.5s, and while that 0.5s doesn't look like much, it's basically an extra 2m the survivor makes on you.
The worst part is you're hit with the same penalty even if you hit the turrets... there is no reward for predicting and hitting turrets with your tail. If survivors place and use turrets well, Xeno is left between rock and a hard place.
- An m1 on the turret is the best scenario, but a well placed turret likely can't be m1'd.
- If they run after the survivor, and cant break turret range, they lose power from the turret, which makes them a zero anti-loop m1 killer.
- Or they swing their tail to break the turret and get this monster slow that gives the survivor insane distance.
- In the worst case scenario, they swing their tail and miss the turret and hit both problems... and that's a GG on that chase immediately.
A lot of people think Xeno is really strong, but it's the same deal as Sadako. If you don't counter their power properly and let Xeno get what they want via crap turret placement, they are very dangerous... but if you as a team do use their power to counter them properly, then Xeno gets run through the ringer.
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@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889846#Comment_3889846
Don't get me started on a random who tried to kill themselves because I reassured them.
I have on occasion considered taking Reassurance just to wind up an SoH player trying to leave xD
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I demand a tier list that includes Killers as well.
Let's settle this debate once and for all who the real queen of DBD is.
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Map balance does seem a bit of pipe dream though... because realistically how do you balance maps for 38 different killer powers?
Even if you just manage archetypes you have:
- Rapid Dash Killers (Nurse, Blight, Wesker, Chucky)
- Accelerated M1 Killers (Spirit, Wraith)
- Long Ranged Killers (Huntress, Deathslinger, Unknown)
- Charge Instadown Killers (Hillbilly, Oni, Bubba)
- Stealth Instadown Killers (Ghost Face, Myers)
- Stealth Slowdown Killers (Pig, Sadako, Freddy)
- Mass Injured Based Killers (Legion, Plague, Twins)
- Loop Cut Off/Zone Killers (Artist, Knight, Doctor, Houndmaster, Demogorgon)
- Map Presense Killers (Dredge, Singularity)
- Short Ranged Anti Loop Killers (Trickster, Pyramid Head, Clown, Xeno, Nemesis)
- Trap/Setup Killers (Trapper, Hag, Skull Merchant)
- Multi powered killers (Dracula, Vecna)
Some simplification going on, but you get the idea... how exactly are you meant to balance a Map for all of these different gameplay styles realistically?
There are certain maps that are outliers for sure with areas that are clearly one sided or another... but majority of maps are really good for some Killers and really bad for others. E.g.
- Ormond is rough for a lot of Killers, but Singularity loves that map.
- The Game is terrible for a lot of Killers, but God tier for Sadako.
- Lery's is great for Stealth killers, and absolutely pain for Billy or Bubba.
Given the wild swing that different Killers have on maps, what exactly does "map balance" mean? Outside of the most egregious cases, everything else is this muddy question mark of what constitutes "balance".
The issue we therefore get is map offerings tend to be used to exploit something specific for either side, and while I do like the functionality of picking a map... this does remain an issue whilstsoever it cab be done reliably.
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What an interesting question... I choose to interpret the add-on to be as written, rather than vaguely alter the add-on to apply to the respective power, so some I will throw into the ring while I have a further think...
- Chucky with Soldier's Putee from Huntress to be a permanent 4.6 killer.
- Wraith with Iridescent Seal from Plague to get her Corrupt Purge. If I assume their powers overlap on button press Wraith would be busted... charging a Purge while uncloaking or cloaking would mean he dashes forward at his high movement speed while puking. 😱
- Jigsaw's Annotated Plan of Jigsaw's Sketch would grant an additional Reverse Bear Trap to any user... and since Pig boxes only spawn with Pig... that's a gg death right there on anyone xD