UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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@Callahan9116 said:
If larry knows what he is doing midwhich is a nightmare... Lerrys always messes me up.
Well.... since the buffs probably fair enough considering a lot of the faster inputs are done automatically for you now, but tight corner indoor maps are certain trickier for Singularity compared to more wide open maps like Ormond and Garden of Joy.
The point remains, Singularity is strong on a fair number of maps that traditionally are trouble some for killers, and not so not on some that are typically considered very killer sided.
Other examples include the likes of Ghost Face, Pig and Myers being very good on Lery's, but Bubba, Hillbilly and Nurse have a fair bit more trouble than they usually would.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
If it was limited to actual 3 gen situations, I'd be fine with it. However. It unfairly and unjustly negatively affects m1 no mobility killers making the weakest killers in the game even weaker. Why? No mobility killers cannot afford to patrol far away gens. Survivors know this, so they leave those gens for last. That means the only gens survivors are focusing on are centeralized gens that are near each other. That means the m1 killer has no choice but to focus on center gens since they can't afford to go to far gens and survivors aren't at those far gens anyway. ALL of the action is in the center of the map. That leaves m1 killers absolutely ripe to getting the 8 regression limit with perks such as surge, or if they dare use perks like eruption despite there not being a 3 gen canping situation where the killer is refusing to chase and hook survivors.
It's a good idea on paper, but absolutely wrecks already weak killers by kicking in when 3 gen canping is NOT happening. The regression limit should change to getting reduced to 6 charges and only kick in counting regression hits once 3 gens are left.
This is a take I agree with, the system does affect killers more reliant on 3-gens more.
Though to be fair, around the same time as that change (7.5.0) BHVR have been buffing/reworking a number of the killers worst affected in chase, such as:
- Trapper getting a basekit stronger version of Coffee Grounds (7.3.0)
- Myers rework to reduce his start up and can now stalk from afar and shift his downtime after hooks (8.4.0)
- Bubba got basekit Chilli and Beast Marks as well as improved/reduced collision (8.0.0)
- Freddy got his rework to be much better in chase and traverse the map a lot better (8.5.0)
- Pig got her basekit crouch speed and ambush buffs (7.6.0)
- Legion got their FeralbFrenzy speed, duration, cooldown and fatigue buffs to get more pressure and the ability to close out chases (8.6.0)
- Demogorgon got reduced recovery on shreds (7.6.0) and better map traversal tools (8.4.0)
- Nemesis got buffs to his power startup time and his whips slow/recovery improved massively to help him chain hits (8.2.0)
- Sadako has alot going on here, but she got her lock in on Condemn, faster TV projection movement speed, faster demanifesting movement speed, and longer invisibility duration while demanifested (7.5.0)
- Dredge got faster movement speed while gloaming, faster map traversal and night charge, shorter cooldowns, and faster locker break speed (8.2.0)
- Knight got his rework and while his cheese got nerfed, he did get things like the criminally underrated Carnifex which is crazy good (8.1.0 and 8.2.0)
- Skull Merchant got her laser beam changes to be more chase oriented, which had potential (7.3.0)... then got Old Yellered behind the shed (8.3.0) 🥺
- Singularity got a heap of changes, but basically his pods attach slipstream better, his slipstream cooldowns are shorter, his overclock is faster, his wake up time is shorter. (8.1.0)
Other killers got buffs of course, but these are the ones I'd say were more 3-genny, and in (almost) all of these cases the killers got improvements to their chase, encouraging them to actually go for downs rather than having to fall back to 3 genning.
How successful each of these are is up for debate, and its map mobility that really makes the difference, but you can see a clear trend in how BHVR are buffing killers following the anti 3-gen change.
So... while I agree with your take on 3-gen kicking in before 3-genning actually happens... I can at least say I do agree with the direction BHVR are going…
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@kit_mason said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3941349#Comment_3941349
My suggestion has always been to make a rate-up map rotation, because I see it as the best compromise.
Achievements can be gone for when a map is increased rates in the rotation, and BHVR can balance maps in the rotation to not cause a set that favors one side or one strat.
Hmmm... its an interesting idea, has a lot of subtle implications, such as building into the specific current map pool, which sounds kinda cool. Lots of nuances where one might see a map combo that favours/encourages a few killers over others, so might see some killer/survivor build variety... 🤔
Only problem I can see is who is in charge of creating the map pool and ensuring it is "balanced"? Cause if course an automated system with ratings, that will favour lower levels of play with majority of the playerbase over high level play, which may lead to pretty damned imbalanced map pools at higher levels. 😏
@Elan said:
Wouldn't it be simple if they just swap the mechanic, so instead of guaranteed 20 % chance that certain map will be picked it gives you 100 % chance that the map will be prevented from being picked.
Ah... well there are a couple of minor issues with that:
- It doesn't address the problem that map offerings don't really have a place in the game... maybe with the map rotation suggestion above it might work, but on its own, such an offering would basically do nothing. You exclude one bad map for yourself, and are still quite likely to get a different bad map for yourself.
- It favours Survivors much more than killer, as Survivors can exclude 4 different maps to the Killers 1.
I kinda struggle to ever see a reason to give up any other offering for a map offering to exclude 1 realm out of the 21.
I mean I don't like using map offerings myself, but I like the system as a level selection option... and tbh outside of a few really abusable and obnoxious builds on certain maps, I don't really mind them being used against me for the most part... I just feel if they are gonna be in game, they do need to have a reasonable purpose to exist, while also limiting their reliability in giving a huge advantage to one side over the other.
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@CoolerBleend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3941401#Comment_3941401
It's more of a tradeoff. Yes they'll spawn closer together but they will also spawn closer to objectives making your patrol of gens and boxes basically the same
Have you tried Tampered Timer, Crate of Gears, Hoarder, Human Greed, Hex: Plaything, Hex: Face the Darkness, preferably with a Terrormisu offering?
I was surprised how evil this build was 💥🐽💥
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@champzaza007 said:
For me, there shouldn't even be a limit in the first place. Meanwhile, perks that boost repair speed haven't been nerfed at all and they keep adding new ones. On the other hand, almost all of the generator slowdown perks for killers have already been nerfed.
I'm fine with having a limit system, really. But could you please make the regression speed work like it does in the 8v2 mode? Because in 4v1, the regression is extremely suck and slow plus it’s limited in how many times it break.
Unfortunately such a change only benefits top tier killers, not the lower tier ones who actually need it... 😔
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I keep holding onto the belief no one can stay allergic to money forever... right? 🥺
Surely everyone pockets have gotta be getting little light after having nothing since 2008?
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Just wanna point out... that this issue happens to benefit Pig, as it pushes her boxes further apart and makes the time to reach them longer for survivors...
So if this gets changed... that's technically a Pig nerf ;🐽;
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My opinion of it is, unless you are hard 3-genning, even with Surge and Eruption you're still unlikely to hit a limit against any competant survivors... and even if you do, it's not likely to be the sole reason yo cost you the game.
With those perks, you're looking a total of at least 59 charges of regression (3 kicks, 3 surges and 2 eruptions) on a single gen before it is blocked.
That gen will either be rushed long before you hit the limit, or you've likely had enough time to get a good amount of pressure on the team in general, given you need 3 downs at least to trigger those scenarios.
This is of course Ingnoring the fact that Surge and Eruption isn't the most synergistic combo available, where Pop/Overcharge + Eruption for a kick build would be much more effective, or something like Pain Res + Surge for a non-kick build.
The gen limit enforces the killer to have to commit to a chase at some point, which these perks encourage you to do already, and reward you handsomely for doing so compared to not having them and using the basic 5% kick.
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@Callahan9116 said:
Nerf?
It's making her vocal chords weaker, and also making John the architect of the game instead Amanda herself, removing her agency and relegating her to the background...
Definitely a nerf ;🐽;
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@kit_mason said:
Honestly, they should stop dancing around trying to make map offerings work and just delete them. Find another way to let survivors go after map related achievements in the long run.
Maps just aren't evenly balanced enough to let Map Offerings not be a way to tip the scales.
In the meantime though, sure, let ppl who failed to get their map keep the offering. It didn't benefit them in the end.
I think the fundamental problem of map balance is the strength of the survivor team is directly correlated to the maps via available pallets and windows and how much the unique structures matter to each particular killer… with nearly 40 killer powers to compensate for the idea of "map balance" is pretty much a pipe dream.
A great example of this is Singularity, who is a very strong killer, but struggles mightily of a number of maps where most killers thrive (such as Midwich), and does amazing on maps that a lot of killers really struggle (such as Ormond).
So with that in mind when you say "Find another way to let survivors go after map related achievements in the long run"… what else could you possibly do? Choosing a map is binary… you either allow it or you don't… I think having the maps not be guaranteed is a good way to help push towards allowing pursuit of map achievements and challenges, while also making it difficult to abuse them… I can't really envision a different system that doesn't allow players to go whole hog…
So I think the proposed system is the best you can get… all I'm really debating is numbers. I'd compromise on one change or the other, not necessarily both… have rejected map offerings return OR bump the 20% to 33%… but 20% chance and you lose the offering as well… that's pretty poo… :/
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Not a popular opinion eh? Fair enough... 😏😏😏
Though I would ask, don't map offerings feel pretty pointless at 20% AND you lose them regardless of outcome?
I mean I personally never use them, I like the RNG elements and just seeing how well I can do regardlesa of what map I get, and I'd rather take bloodpoint bonuses every time (even the naff ones)...
However purely from a game philosophy perspective, doesn't this nerf kinda push map offerings into a "why is this even in the game" sort of region? 🤔
There are reasons to use them that aren't purely about making the other sides life as miserable as possible, and I still feel a 67% chance not to get your map is a reasonably unreliable rate/deterrent to discourage more toxic builds...
E.g. are you gonna take Badham + No Mither or Scratched Mirror Myers + Lerys's if you have a 2/3 chance of being stuck with No Mither/Scratched Mirror on a random map?
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Hmmm... I'm a huge Beetlejuice fan, watched the TV show and everything, and can probably recite most of Beetlejuice's lines from memory.
Ironically your big problem is he would have an insane scope for his power, as he can shape-shift, teleport, manipulate the people/world around him as he pleases... trying to nail him down to set of rules is pretty hard.
Theme-wise this is a problem too, because designing a thematically appropriate counter to Beetlejuice is quite tricky (saying his name 3 times obviously isn't gonna cut it 😅)
The main thing of course that sells Beetlejuice is of course his sleezy car salesmen visage and chatter... he'd need a fair few voice lines... and you definitely want Michael Keaton himself doing it.
However assuming you can get around all his issues... Beetlejuice unrestrained could well be a pretty badass and nasty killer... you'd just have to walk a fine line between being funny, and being actually scary… maybe even breaking the forth wall.
You'd definitely need to do some work to focus more on his nasty streak under the Entity... otherwise it'd be pretty hard to imagine him mori'ing Lydia🤔
I would have to insist though that if you look at him in the store he would have to say "Hey look! We even shop at the same store! We're sympatico! Come on! What I gotta do to cut a deal here!?"
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Same logic as Xenomorph and grabbing a turret really...
Pretty sure Springtrap is still looking quite strong regardless as a map mobile Huntress with Undetectable and no lullaby, who can actually lob high and over tiles and still become 4.6 on demand, so I don't think this is a concern.
There are many mechanics that don't really pose a huge threat if you really know what you're doing, unless the killer plays really smartly around it and pays a lot of attention, such as the lament configuration, condemn, reverse bear traps and microsleep, etc.
I feel like a good Springtrap who makes strong reads may be able to bait/predict a door usage, and even if he doesn't, its main strength is the map traversal on demand anyway.
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3940890#Comment_3940890
"I believe many players would agree that a well-designed competitive game must provide an ending that properly reflects the outcome."
Except DBD is not a well-designed game, does not promote fair and balanced PVP, and has been bugged for years, so lets stop with all the purist PVP it should be like this nonsense. I'll believe that once Huntress' hatchets and Kaneki's grab isn't getting hits around corners and walls i'm well behind, or when I down a surv who perfectly timed a pallet stun and the swing doesn't fully go through, but it still registers and downs them on the other side. They abandoned, just move on with your life instead of feeling so sad and crushed that they moved on with theirs. This just sounds like a dude who can't get over rejection.
Hehehe, it's a strong response xD
I do think your point is also valid, as I believe both arguments are correct depending on the context...
I will admit, I don't like the abandon feature personally... I don't use it unless I'm REALLY salty about the game just gone by... as I feel it's a little unsporting to abandon...
However in the same breathe, I can't say I'm against the feature, given how DBD can be played... if the killer has been extremely unsporting, you can't exactly be criticised for also being pretty unsporting...
However it's an interesting discussion either way... 😅
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3940573#Comment_3940573
It‘s kinda weird to me that you didn‘t mention nostromo as dark map, which for me is one of the darkest and it is one of the best maps in terms of athmosphere in my opinion.
I would as darker maps affect both sides equally. Survivors have it harder to see the killer approaching and killers can‘t spot survivors over the whole map.
Besides that, I find maps where you can see everything and all borders very ugly.
That said... of course darkness and limited view range is better for stealth killers, and the upper tiers tend to do very well with clear lines of sight... maybe this is the secret buff lower tier killers need vs. the higher tiers xD
The secret buff we‘ve all been waiting for
Well to be fair, Nostoromo, while dark, has a lot of bright surfaces that you can clearly see silhouettes relatively easily against... whereas these other ones, it's all dark dingy surfaces that it's easy to miss someone at a quick glance.
Terror radius is the key difference, as a survivor can slip into a dark mark unnoticed far better than the lighter ones...
Personally I hope they go through with the survey feedback option to have day/night/twilight map options. Maybe not all maps, but some maps could really use some night modes...
And Borgo needs some sconses and burning bodies or something... that map is stupid dark...
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I suggested this before and still think it'd be a great addition where if all members of the lobby are dead the killers perks should be revealed.
The talking points of concern are ofc begrudging players messaging people still in the trial about killer perks like NOED and alike... however my arguments against that is:
Steam/Epic/crossplay can't message each other, and even on the same platforms, quite a few people have their profiles private so you can't message people anyway.
Console also have the same privacy issues, and in addition it takes an age to type a message out that most people won't care enough to do anyway, especially to 3 separate people.
For anything more than a very short message, you can't read it without coming out of the game, which itself causes more problems than it solves. It can also distract a looping player and screw them over.
If 1 player is dead, then the killer is already likely in a winning game position that having that knowledge is not likely to make a difference anyway.
There are not many perks that by the time a player is dead the survivors paying attention don't know about (or at least suspect) anyway. There are also quite a large number of perks where even if you know about them, it doesn't limit the perks effectiveness, or it's too late to do anything about them anyway.
All in all, there are very few benefits from taking the time and effort to do it. As long as SWFs can't see until all their lobby is dead, then I think it's fine. At the end of the day, "Ghost messaging" might help the odd player, but it's still soloQ... it isn't really gonna help 99% of the time.
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@subdl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3940402#Comment_3940402
I understand and respect the view that each player interprets the game through their own values and judges whether a match was good or bad accordingly.
However, since DBD is a PvP game in which real human players confront each other with opposing objectives, it’s entirely natural that many players — especially killers, who are outnumbered and bear sole responsibility for the outcome — seek a clear sense of victory and defeat.
From that perspective, it’s not unreasonable to expect that the moment of victory should be accompanied by an appropriate and satisfying conclusion. When that is missing, it’s only natural for players to feel discomfort or dissatisfaction.
My frustration with the current system doesn’t stem merely from the inconvenience of having to deal with bots. Rather, it comes from the emotional disconnection — the sense that the fulfillment of victory is suddenly cut off.
After carefully making decisions under pressure and finally achieving a 4K, you’re told, “The players you were facing have already moved on to their next match. Please handle the rest against AI.”
That moment of triumph is rendered hollow.
Can you imagine how demoralizing that feels?To make matters worse, if you find the cleanup bothersome, you’re prompted to press a button labeled “Abandon.”
This feels absurd. It’s as if, after winning a chess match, you’re told, “Your opponent has already left. Please either put away the pieces yourself or abandon the match entirely.”
In a real match, both the winner and loser remain present and conclude the game with a handshake.The idea of the loser vanishing while the winner silently packs up the board — that’s not a proper competitive experience. It lacks closure, dignity, and respect for the match that just took place.
This kind of structure causes significant stress for killer players in particular.Of course, I don’t deny that everyone interprets the game differently.
But at the same time, I believe many players would agree that a well-designed competitive game must provide an ending that properly reflects the outcome.In the current state of DBD, survivors — the losing side — move on without witnessing the conclusion, while the killer — the victor — is left behind to do cleanup alone.
That kind of ending is fundamentally broken.
And the fact that the developers failed to anticipate or design around this leaves me deeply disappointed.There are a few occassions where I know I don't really approve of a feature, but don't really have a good argument against it... just something just "feels off" about it and I can't quite put my finger on it.
The abandon feature was one such feature, where I could see the reasons it needed to be put in place, but something felt off about it… the positives seemed to outweigh the negatives, but there was this sour taste that lingered anyway.... but I couldn't really put it into words.
To me it always felt like having the feature was affirming a quitter mindset, but I couldn‘t in good faith argue that as being a good objection and it didn't really explain my disdain. You managed to put your thumb right onto the cause of that feeling in my brain, and I can only say thank you and very well done.
Reflecting on this post, I realised that I myself very rarely use the abandon feature, and subconsciously found myself only using it when the killer was deliberately playing in an obnoxious fashion as a means to express my disapproval at their play… and I don't think I'm alone in that... this was quite an eye opening and thought provoking post, not just for DBD, but gaming in general.
Cheers that man 😁
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I need more than 1 upvote...
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@vol4r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3940894#Comment_3940894
Don't they all play like their life is on stake all the time?
Me and my friends always make fun of those "sweats" that they are playing for a meal. Good old slugging for 4k situation, ahh.
It is a... fairly frequent experience, aye xD
I roll my eyes when I see such sweats, just running over your opponents isn't fun for me, on either side.... I don't get the appeal of playing hardcore meta in any game... you either crush your opponents effortlessly or play the most sweaty unfun match possible... it sucks no matter what.
I tend to switch goals in those games to "Okay... I just want to get 2, maybe 3 gens finished for pride points"... which in SoloQ, is still a pretty Herculean task sometimes xD
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@Stibfa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3940359#Comment_3940359
Clearly the 6 people that downvoted me wanted tips so here we go.
When youre healthy try no to drop pallets, break line of sight and try to put obstacles between ghoul and you, there is a chance ghoul gets stuck on something while grabbing you which cancels his m2 hit.
If you Do get hit its always better to get hit by his m2. This puts his power on a 8 second cooldown and gives you a speedboost use this downtime to run to a loop. Try not to get m1d this lets him instantly leap after you.
When ghoul kicks a pallet when he has his power he will go in 5 second cooldown. Use this down time to run to another loop.
Make sure you heal against ghoul unless you have a very safe map if you have a map with deadzones being injured is basically a free down.
Hahaha, that ratio is a little ridiculous for an innocent question... guess you poked the wasps nest xD
I haven't played much lately since his second nerf (Nightrein, Marvel Rivals), and I do apologise if I'm wrong, but isn't there a thing where if his power is on cooldown he can break the pallet and his power doesn't lose stacks?
So he can time it and basically subvert the penalty... and break pallet/chase down survivors like he did before...
Regardless, I don't mind him as much now... Personally I find him to be in the same camp as Blight and Nurse, where if you're playing against a console Ghoul, he tends to get run over... but if you're against a well practised one on mouse and keyboard, you just get roflstomped no matter what they take unless they play uber nice to give you half a chance 😅
Sure a sweaty Kaneki is annoying, but no more annoying than sweaty Blight, and whenever I see one I think "pfft whatever dude, if the win means that much to you, go ahead".
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If such a thing were to be implemented, a preference for non repeats of killers would be a better system.
Simply add a rule to matchmaking that means there is a preference for matchmaking against a killer you haven't faced in your previous 2 games, which also works for SWFs as well, since you can take the same rule for the top 2 killers that have appeared most between all players. If no alternative can be found within an acceptable MMR limit, then hard cheese.
This is a much fairer and less abusable system than allowed people to control which 2 killers they don't want to face.
This system would also help mitigate issues for people with accessibility issues (and even phobias) which a lot of discussion has been about lately.
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To play devil's advocate, one point to consider is darkness and atmosphere don't just affect the Survivor, they also affected the killer.
I have noticed a number of times that darker maps like Borgo, Red Forest, Greenville and MacMillan are all a little harder to keep tabs on survivors in the dark compared to the likes of Glendale, Ormond, Coldwind, etc.
This is probably fine due to the prevelance and relatively decent strength of aura perks nowadays, but I can imagine a reason for brighter map pallets and removal of the fog is to focus more on the chase side of DBD than the stealth side.
So while I'd absolutely love more atmosphere are darkness in DBD, in game where the relative FOVs are a big factor between the 2 sides, it might be worth bearing this in mind.
That said... of course darkness and limited view range is better for stealth killers, and the upper tiers tend to do very well with clear lines of sight... maybe this is the secret buff lower tier killers need vs. the higher tiers xD
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Just a reminder that not all bugs are created equal.
Some are easy to fix and take a few seconds, some are hard to fix and can take hours or even days.
For some the causes are pretty obvious, others the cause is very subtle and hard to spot.
Some fixes can be applied with confidence there will be no knock on effects, others can have quite substantial effects on numerous interactions.
Some can be really easy to reproduce almost every single time, others can work correctly 1000 times and only fail once.
We have nearly 40 different killer powers with 20 add-ons a piece, interacting with 120ish perks for both killers and survivors each, on numerous configurations of maps and spawns, and an infinite number of input combinations and scenarios from the 5 players. Things like this take millions of lines of code, and the number of possible states the game can be in to potential cause issues is impossible to calculate.
I'm not implying the state of bugs in DBD is great... but its hardly surprising given the amount of interactions and content in this game. Complaining about which bugs get fixed over others is a little naive to say the least.
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I feel like a lot of the time when people talk about the value of perks like DS and Unbreakable and even Adrenaline being situational and rely on the killer doing <splot>, they often ignore the value that just having the perk passively brings.
They all allow survivors to play in ways they otherwise wouldn't be able to by passively existing.
E.g. if you have Decisive Strike, you can afford to heal under the hook because you know you have Decisive Strike, whereas not having it means you take a big gamble trying to heal under hook. Used correctly, it also allows you to save a good pallet by deliberately going down instead of throwing it.
E.g.2. If you have Adrenaline, you can afford to take chase and bait yourself while on Death Hook for the final gen, or just flat out ignore healing off the hook to get the final gen done since you know that Adrenaline is gonna pop.
E.g.3. If you have Unbreakable you can afford to go for a last second risky unhook, because if the killer downs you as you unhook, you know they either have to leave you slugged for the tunnel, or pick you up and lose the tunnel.
When discussing value, a lot of players only look at the primary flashy value you can see with the perk, and consider that where the value ends... rather than stopping to think what additional options are available to you simply because you have this ace in the hole...
A lot of perk discussions on both sides tend to frustrate me, because unless a perk in unga bunga stupid amazing and gets insane value in literally every single match and scenario for very little effort or build investment, then the perk is deemed trash and not worth using. I know for a fact if certain suggestions ever made it through, all the fun I have making builds currently would die if every perk were jacked up to the nines.
Perks are meant to provide situational benefits, which in turn is what makes tangible trade offs for your choices between the different options. If you have a perk that can satisfy whatever you need it to at all times, it effectively has no weakness, and in that scenario there is no need to consider alternatives, and makes every other similar perk redundant.
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@MrRetsej said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939170#Comment_3939170
Rookie Spirit could use some love, but under NO circumstance should it, or any perk reduce the time to stop a regressing generator. Otherwise, we go back to the gen-tap meta which was untenable and will not be missed.
Eehhh, I agree with you gen tapping shouldn't come back at base, and definitely not in any form in the old way of literally just touching a gen... but given this version is 1s, not instant like the old version, is it something so valuable its worth a whole perma perk slot?
The only time it really gets its worth is if you want to stop a gen regressing before you go for the unhook, or the killer loses sight of you long enough for you you get that second in.
I mean you could make it 2s if you think its really busted... but I'm not convinced it is.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939170#Comment_3939170
Indeed, I've got similar complaints for Rookie Spirit too
I see Rookie Spirit more as an intel perk, since it's map-wide. You can tell instantly when a generator starts regressing, which effectively updates you on the killer's location.
Aye that's a nice part of its niche, its like an Alert-lite in that regard... and that combined with helping finding key gens needing finishing is a unique set of traits that is quite good for a gen aura perk, it just needs that little bit more to find its footing over other perks…
I feel like being able to stop regression within 1s gives it a pretty nice set of abilities, none of which are particular oustanding on their own, but combined together makes a pretty solid utility perk.
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@lettuchia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939198#Comment_3939198
Saying that blight and nurse can subvert the skillful elements of the game is factually incorrect. This is only the case against bad survivors, but against good survivors blight and nurse take plenty of skill to actually get results, that's what makes them strong. (sadly this isn't fully the case for blight really because of momo tech, but remove that and blight is great, compared to pig/myers who need entirely new powers to be well designed)
Meanwhile pig and myers don't have any skillful elements that other killers don't have, they don't have to rely more on macro and mindgames to "function" because they're not going to win vs good players regardless of what they do.
There's nothing wrong with skillful powers other than dash powers, pre-rework singularity for example, vecna, unknown, springtrap, knight to an extent, but pig and myers and plenty of other "m1 killers" do not have any uniquely skillful elements. Weak killer =/= skill expressive killer
You've clearly missed my point man... micro gameplay at tiles is 1 skill in DBD, and I'm simply pointing out you're oversimplifying the equation.
I didn't say Blight and Nurse take no skill or subvert all skillful elements of the game, I said they take no macro or mind game skill to play, and that is because their lethality at tiles combined with their map mobility means their skill is purely in the micro. It is more for them to screw up more than it is for a Survivor to outplay them.
Look up any guide on Blight or Nurse, it all purely about effective use of your m2 power. The difference of a strong Nurse/Blight vs. a weak Nurse/Blight is purely a question of how fast you can down to then snowball pressure, and is why you often see them running very similar builds. The question for these killers is purely about how fast you can down survivors between hooks, and the only time they even need to think about macro or having to really mind game is if they've already screwed up several times in their micro.
Now micro is THE most important skill in winning the game. Fast chases mean less downtime and more pressure regardless of killer, and there is plenty of skill involved in successfully winning chases quickly even with killers who are strong in micro... but there are multiple skills in DBD, and the killers we're naming that don't have good micro play, even in the hands of a skilled player, need different skillsets to succeed.
These skills aren't as likely to turn a game for you as much as good micro will, but that doesn't mean those skills don't exist. Successfully mind gaming a high level survivor as an m1 killer like Pig and Myers is much harder to do than it is to land hits in the micro with Nurse or Blight. You also have far fewer opportunities to make things count and much smaller margins for error regarding your assessment of the macro in the trial, so while you can't demonstrate more skill in the micro due to your killers limitations, you have far more scope to demonstrate skill in the other areas of DBD.
Focusing on different areas of the game than mechanical skill does not make a killers design fundamentally flawed and skill-less.
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... He's not exactly wrong... the powers are quite directly comparable, and in most cases Springtraps power is the one that comes out on top... 🤔
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Correction: little to no mechanical skill expression.
A killer like Blight, Billy or Nurse has little to no macro or mind game skill expression because their powers fundamentally allow the killer to subvert these elements of the game and brute force hits once their tile knowledge is good enough... all that's left is the accuracy of their inputs.
Pig and Myers cannot do the same and thus must rely far more on macro and mind games to function, which of course falls short against Survivors of a comparable level of macro/mind game knowledge, usually only going these killers way if they make an incredible series of insane reads/lucky gambles.
Not everyone wants their mouse accuracy and their skill at using the 1 trick strengths of a killers dash powers at subverting looping to be the only skill elements of their game. Some of us actually enjoy m1 mind games and trying to read the trial to effectively create pressure... even if it isn't as strong.
Different types of powers are a good thing, otherwise every killer just becomes generic dash, generic map mobility, generic detection, generic hit over tile killer number 24.
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Corrupt, Thanatophobia, Hex: Plaything, Hex: Pentimento is a pretty nasty Plague build, less so since the Penti nerf, but it's still quite rough.
- You don't wanna stay injured without a terror radius and with a Thana slowdown on the gens.
- You don't wanna cleanse Plaything due to time taken and Penti slowdown on top, especially if it's infected due to Penti+Thana.
- You don't want to give Plague her Corrupt Purge either cause she can easily keep people injured/down with it, and also defend her Penti totems.
If I see a Plague run this, I have to hope she doesn't know to turn 45° as she turns corners, cause otherwise, it's REALLY hard punch through, even in a SWF... 😱
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Indeed, I've got similar complaints for Rookie Spirit too, and feel while Deja Vu is how it is, these perks have no purpose.
For Rookie Spirit, I liked the idea of repairing a regressing generator would stop regression after 1s instead of 5s. (I used to suggest 400% faster repair speed while a gen is regressing for the same effect and a small repair bonus... but sadly that breaks with Hex: Ruin). As such it's activation condition could be considered for removal.
For Visionary I've seen a number of cool suggestions. First and foremost it's cooldown needs to be removed, but after that I liked one of:
- Add gate auras as well. Would be a nice niche of helping you find gate handles earlier in the trial.
- Give a colour gradient based on the progress of the generator similar to Legion's add-on. (Overridden by yellow auras obviously, such as Blast Mine, Better Together, Trail of Torment, etc).
The second one could also be a consideration for Rookie Spirit as well.
@ImWinston said:
- the only good use of "visionary" is in indoor maps, it can actually be useful. But you're right, deja-vu is better in every way. Rework: when a generator is completed, its aura is highlighted for you in white... near those generators (8 meters?) you have 2% haste. the effect persists for 3 seconds after you move away. sort of "batteries included" but for survivors
This is a pretty cool suggestion, my only dislike of it is we're in an era of DBD where haste is the go to "make it viable" change for everything.
Personally I think we should be doing our best to avoid adding more haste effects in the game whenever possible, especially given that the haste stacking change has been scrapped.
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I felt it was always a good pallette cleanser...
If you had a great game you had somewhere to dump your excitement, if you had an annoying game, you could vent it with a 2 or 3... and if the killer/survivors were lame, try hard, teabaghing/humping, meta scrub filth, you could voice that hatred without having to message them or on PC engage in the end game chat whatsoever…
No idea if it actually did anything ofc... but I imagine the data was largely useless. Based on games like League of Legends and the way everyone says "report <splot>" for the crime of losing lane... typical player usage of the feature probably wasn't a very useful statistic.
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@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3938338#Comment_3938338
Ideally accessibility features wouldnt provide any advantages for people that arent affected by the initial issue. And I can see that argument is reasonable to some degree.
but people are also exaggerating these, eg i still can hear Most Killer lullabys before I can see the visual indicator (Most easily with Huntress but also others) and I have to think to myself: are the people that rally against this feature sure they are not the target audience here?And even then, these features can be fine-tuned, where the advantage would either be negligible or even give a slight disadvantage if it is too much
I already Said where I draw the line: if the feature is integral to the whole games Identity such as Masks, sharp weapons, blood, nighttime in DbD then an extra mode may be not reasonable. But if the game didnt feature something triggering a phobia sich as arachnophobia for literal a decade and suddenly it gets added but wont affect more than 90 perfekt of matches then why not add a phobia mode which changes the model client-sided to something still Horror themed but just not arachnid - it shouldnt give an advantage (there is already cosmetics that change the killers appearance greatly that are Not considered super advantageous) then what exactly speaks against it?Obviously the line has to be drawn somewhere, but the Community/player base should be able to ask for such features without being attacked for it and the devs can consider to implement these (based on requests, available resources, etc) without being attacked for it for either decision.
Just because they implement one phobia Mode doesnt mean they have to accomodate to all possible phobias just as much as they don’t have to cater to any existing color blind condition just because they have a basic colorblind mode (eg its a Video Game that uses colors and it will never be fully accessible for achromatopsia) - though they still should improve their colorblind settings
Well... considering we already have spider legs grabbing people to sacrifice them to the Entity, to say its not already part of the existing aesthetic is not really accurate, but I do understand the point you're making.
I agree that ideally accessibility features shouldn't give any advantage, but in case of disabilities, by their very nature, they are there to accomodate someone who isn't as able as everyone else... which is essentially near impossible not to be a better option enabled over not having it.
This is an objective problem... it is a negative of the game, the same way having a marker for the centre of your screen isn't really cheating, but it IS an advantage... and it means that you as a normal player have to gimp yourself intentionally by not using it... or join in to be on a level playing field. That is an annoying question to ask of any player, because we know that a lot of players would ignore an honour system... so you have to decide between them. Disabilities are however something that most people can rally behind. Despite it being an objective issue for the game, it's a compromise we often accept, because supporting people's with disabilities is important for a civilised society.
However... this I feel is what creates the pushback regard accessibility features related to phobias. A phobia can be considered a disability, but they do not automatically qualify as one... and introducing accessibility for it is running this risk of competative advantage... and the question is, is this phobia a reasonable thing to take that compromise for? A scenario I would say should be supported if you suffer from a phobia is one that inhibits your ability to work, or function in life, that is fair, and deserves support.
However video games are a luxury, and where the disconnect occurs is when you say "'it’s a horror game' is not an argument at all", that isn't really true. Horror media by design is intended to provoke human fears, that is its purpose, and this is a fact you can't ignore... a horror fan WANTS to be scared, and the entire point of having a spider killer would be specifically to target the natural human fear of creatures that scuttle, which is a commonly evolved fear due to the fact a lot of scuttling creatures are poisonous/dangerous, and having gameplay altering effects arise that undermines that killer is an unnecessary issue in the eyes of someone who wants to be scared.
Even if there were no gameplay advantage, if the design of such a killer has to be compromised in order to accomodate a functional arachnophobia mode, then it similarly places constraints and limitations on what can be done for all the other players who are looking for that horror experience... and that does suck to say the rest of us can't have something, or have to take a milk toast version of it for the sake of people who are actively choosing to be part of said horror game, but are then placing constraints upon it.
As for why accessibility discussions tend to be met with harsh criticism, that is also likely an overcompensation when discussing this matter, because no one wants to be the one who is seen as intolerant. The word "accessibility" tends to get thrown around as a good way to straw man someone, and make them look completely unreasonable despite having quite valid and reasonable concerns under the guise of "tolerance", as it ultimately always results in their opinions don't matter compared to the "greater good"... which when you're passionate about something, it is a bitter pill to swallow when someone complains about a phobia, in media specifically intended to target phobias...
It'd be like turning up to a Tom and Jerry marathon premier and trying to insist the violence should be censored... it begs the question, what are you even doing here?
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@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3938775#Comment_3938775
but we already have precedent that this gate keeping is not even happening with the Clown.
The devs have stated they wouldnt add a Clown killer because Coulrophobia is so widespread but then they went back on their word and still added the Clown without any further consideration.
Now we have the Twitter statement that handles both a potential Spider killer as well as accessibility features and I get why people may get confused and draw a direct connection - but its been confirmed these two statements are indeed separate from one another and its not a direct causal relation at all..
I'll have to take your word on that as I wasn't part of the DBD community back then, but the same logic applies. If BHVR had stuck with the argument that we can't have clowns because of Coulrophobia, we likely wouldn't have the Clown, despite the Evil Clown being a classic horror tope in the genre.l.
The fact we don't have an accessibility option doesn't prove that it's not viable to include accessibility options… but the fact BHVR went and did it without one after voicing those concerns does kinda indicate that having to include accessibility options for phobias is something that poses a problem for character development and design...
So I'd say my point still stands... why go to the effort to try to make an Arachnid killer, if you have to strip back and limit the concepts and ideas around it for being too spider like? Even if that isn't the direct reason BHVR doesn't want to do an arachnid killer, it's certainly a factor that would also sway their position if they are likely to take flack for not including an "arachnophobia accessibility" option.... which let's face it... they absolutely would.
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@Mooks said:
it cant be generalized like that. Some people that are suffering from arachnophobia may not be affected by any depictions on a monitor at all, for some others its just the movements of a spider.
One way to make it happen would still be to make a neutral cosmetic that would be shown client wider to those that have the optional option turned on. We could get a cool Spider Killer and plenty of cosmetics and wouldnt even notice if someone Else has the option turned on - so not immersion breaking at all.
Somehow people still have something against this idea 🤷♂️
We've already argued about this already, so I won't dredge those talking points up regarding phobias...
However a strong consideration for why people are against that idea is that it basically means arachnophobia sufferers basically gate keep such content, and is likely why we got the announcement saying it'll never happen... I myself as someone who has had arachnophobia get so annoyed by it, because a Spider killer would be a great killer to touch on my fears, which is something I would love to have back in DBD.
How are they gate keeping? Well think about it as if you were a developer. To actually create a Spider killer with an arachnophobia accessibility option, you have to go through all the work of creating said killer as you do for any other... which as we all know is not an insignificant undertaking.
However now you also have to dedicate time and resources to researching arachnophobia, all the different variations and trigger, and then build various handlers on top of your killer to mitigate those issues. There isn't some handy widely available plugin or feature you can just slot into your game engine like you can for color blindness, you need to do the work yourself in the design of the killer. Likely you have to compromise several areas of your killers design, given that to accomodate arachnophobia you have to effectively make it 'less spidery'... which itself begs the question why are you even doing a Spider killer in the first place?
You then have to do extensive testing to ensure it complies with the accessibility requirements, and then you can finally ship your killer...
That is a lot of additional work to put into a killer... and time is money... any sensible business person would simply say "we're just not gonna bother doing a Spider killer, and will do something else instead".
Sure Monster Hunter did it, they literally turned the spiders into blobs... and sure these are OK in the context of monster hunter, but this would just be plain stupid in DBD.
https://youtu.be/Xq2jZRGabYU?si=IHEDt_oWajAzHIt7So basically this industry shift to "arachnophobia accessibility" in gaming basically means none of us can have spiders, cause it's a waste of time trying to implement them along with implementing a passable replacement for the feature.
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@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3938310#Comment_3938310
and then try to demand features to diminish its horror elements instead of taking steps to manage your own phobias, is at best cowardice, and at worst extreme entitlement.
Demanding and asking for are two very different things.
It seems like the people against optional Phobia modes are the ones demanding something here - which wouldnt even affect them as no one would be forced to use such an optional Setting and this seems to me more like what entitlement is. Espeically considering they way people are speaking against it (calling it stupid/dumb, having no empathy for other, only Talking about themselves and their own experiences, belittling others, trying to dictate how others should handle their own phobias and media usage)
you don’t have to ask for special treatment for yourself, no one is saying that you should or trying to Tell you how you handle your mental health, but why do you think you can tell others what they ask for?
just because this way has worked for you doesnt mean it will work for wvwry affected individual and they may just not be in a mental state to go that way.
"my challenges in life, even if they are entirely irrational or of my own making, aren't for me to solve or fight to overcome, they are for everyone else to accomodate"This isnt happening either. They are asking Game devs for an optional feature. Every other player would not be affected.
And again, making it a slippery slope, generalizing.. the world can become more welcoming but somehow people try to turn that into something bad when it wouldnt harm anyone Else or affect them negativelyNot unreasonable argument, and I will take this moment to apologise if I came across overly bullheaded.
I think the main reason why myself and other people object to this thought process is where do you draw the line?
The problem that comes of accessibility features is they almost always sacrifice immersion for functionality, and in almost all cases, these are abusable for competative advantage... every accessibility change is a near unavoidable compromise in this regard.
e.g. the Visual Terror Radius is just categorically better for dealing with stealthier killers than not having it. Colour enhancement systems like reshade counter trap killers and allow for effectively aura perks for free. Gamma effects allow players to totally bypass darkening effects, etc, etc.
As such the inclusion of additional features to combat phobias runs a similar risk... and the problem is the Pandora box this opens.
For example: -
- Do you allow people to ban Clown for coulrophobia? Huntress, Nurse, Ghost Face or Trapper for Masklophobia? Billy or Blight for Dysmorphobia? That is abusable to just avoid certain killers.
- Do you allow people to make the game brighter to counter Nyctophobia? Despite the obvious advantages this brings.
- Do you allow people to to turn all sharp weapons into blocks for Aichmophobia, making those killers weapon textures larger, blockier and easier to see?
- Do you allow people to change models, sounds and powers completely such as Plague for Emetophobia or Zoophobia for Pig and her roar?
You can see how the list goes on, and basically if you facilitate one phobia, the implication is you have to include accessibility for all phobias on demand.
By implication none of us can say no to any request regarding phobia support, because after all, why would you support accessibility for one phobia, but not others? If someone asks for it, aren't you then duty bound to support it, cause not doing so is favouritism to one type of phobia over another?
You might say no, of course not, supporting all possible phobias would be ridiculous, but the fact is you then have to have someone define which phobias it's fine to have accessibility for, and which ones it is not, and that seems like a lose/lose no matter what you do.
As I say, this is a horror game the entire point is to touch on phobias... so if the goal is to make phobias accessible... you basically need options to turn of basically every aspect/element of the game... which just seems a flawed premise at its base.
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@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3938279#Comment_3938279
everyone has a different journey and they may experience their phobia differently.
its great you are overcoming yours but that doesnt mean everyone else has to do it the same way and it should definitley not be mandated by a Video game they are playing.The reason you play horror games is to experience and face your fear
thats not true though - I don’t have any kind of phobia and I still play and enjoy horror games. People with a specific phobia (irrational fear) may still enjoy horror media that don’t include their phobia and especially in DbD case arachnophobics may have player the Game for almost 10 years and enjoyed the present horror aspects.
Emetophobia might have a case because it can make you physically sick... but other phobias is just being silly...Thats not true, other phobias can make people physically sick as well. Are you sure you are actually talking about phobias and not just normal fears…
are we gonna add options for Hemophobia to remove blood? Nyctophobia to remove darkness? Aichmophobia to remove sharp objects?imo this is different as these are themes that are present in the whole Game, not even just every Match but even outside of the matches. As for Stufe Like Coulrophobia, Emetophobia, and potentially Arachnophobia it would only be präsent in some of the matches that in this case survivor players cant control at all. So they are forced to either not play the game at all because they might encounter this theme suddenly even when it wasnt there for years of them playing or they have to close the game (dc/afk/playing blind/deaf) for these matches.
Though there is an EASY Solution for these problems: phobia mode that changes these visual or audio triggers client sided. It wouldnt affect anyone else, correctly implemented wouldnt give any advantage, and people that want to accustom themselves to their triggers can try and turn it on
Other games have implemented these without it actually affecting other Players already. It’s really that simple and you don’t need to work yourself up about it.I absolutely agree with you that fear and horror is unique to each individual. In fact I cite that as one of the greatest things about horror as a genre, the fact that it is so personal to you in regards to what you personally fear.
To get a little philosophical, video games are a medium that allows players to immerse themselves in a world that they otherwise would not be able to experience. Fear is a negative emotion, why would any of us want to experience it? The reason I would argue is because it is such an interesting emotion, uniquely introspective to you as a person, and a very raw to the human experience.
I had a very intense fear of the dark as a child and well into my teens, more specifically cracked cupboards or dark hallways. The Dredge touches precisely on my childhood fears, and the only reason I'm able to deal with him now is there have been many forms of media that hit this precise fear that I have explored at length.
I have intense fear still of concepts such as possession or various representations of poltergeists/demons that I cannot put a physical barrier between me and it. I believe it may have grounds in feeling unable to control.
The common trait of a hero is bravery, and the definition of bravery is "the quality or state of having or showing mental or moral strength to face danger, fear, or difficulty". Bravery is not defined as a person that is not afraid; not caring about danger is stupidity, which is why we have lines such as "there is a fine line between being courageous and being stupid". What makes a character brave is that they experience fear, and yet are willing to face that fear anyway.
I bring this up, because to come into a game that is predicated precisely on the idea of gathering together and celebrating all icons of horror and fear, and then try to demand features to diminish its horror elements instead of taking steps to manage your own phobias, is at best cowardice, and at worst extreme entitlement.
My family have several individuals with autism, bipolar disorder, ptsd, etc, and in a lot of cases have phobias associated with them, some of which can be explosive at times. We have a common saying in our home of "that might be a reason that explains your behaviour, but it is not an excuse", and we still hold each other up to the same standards as everyone else. I have my own phobias that I have faced and still face to this day, not limited to DBD, but all aspects of life, and have held me back in numerous ways... but I wouldn't dream of asking for special treatment to remove those hurdles, because doing so would prove that I can't overcome them, that I will forever give into them. Being forced to face them, I have become much better (even if still not good) in those regards.
This mentality of "my challenges in life, even if they are entirely irrational or of my own making, aren't for me to solve or fight to overcome, they are for everyone else to accomodate", is not an attitude I believe should be celebrated in any way shape or form, and is a attitude that seems to be very prevelant nowadays.
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The words "arachnophobia mode" annoyed me greatly.
A phobia is defined as a persistent, excessive, and irrational fear of an object, person, animal, activity, or situation.
As someone who has arachnophobia and worked for years to overcome it, I find the notion of an anti-phobia accessibility option absurd. I started with tiny money spiders and letting them on my hands, and am now able to hold even medium sized spiders unprotected, and can capture even very large spiders under a glass and paper and take them outside without panicking. I still have to control my fear, but that is a skill to develop in itself.
My mother suffered with incredibly bad arachnophobia, still does, but when she became a teacher had to get it under control so that she could deal with spiders in front of 5 year old without panicking them.
DBD is a horror game. The reason you play horror games is to experience and face your fear, and I would love to have that new player fear experience I had when I started playing DBD back, and I'm sure many players would. There are things to do with accessibility that do need to be handled, like the visual terror radius for hard of hearing, the sensory overload/epilepsy issues from Clown and Doctor, etc. These things should be handled...
However when it comes to phobias, asking foŕ accessibility options on them, I'm sorry, is just ridiculous... Emetophobia might have a case because it can make you physically sick... but other phobias is just being silly... are we gonna add options for Hemophobia to remove blood? Nyctophobia to remove darkness? Aichmophobia to remove sharp objects?
"Accessibility" isn't a word that can be just thrown out and be automatically right. How far exactly into the "irrational fear" accessibility pool do we want to go? Fear is fear. Deal with it or leave.
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As someone with 3 tomes left to go, I'll be rather perturbed if they get removed...
If they are to be replaced, fine... but their current incarnation is perfectly fine. An optional bonus for the dedicated and those seeking a challenge.
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I always look up this image for a visual idea of distance, if it helps.
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I feel the same way...
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@GRIG0 said:
I can confirm the the blocking vaults thing and PWYF didnt work with Victor. No idea about bloodlust.
I would guess Victor counts as using power and thus cannot acquire bloodlust.
Even if he does, I havent looked it up to confirm, but I'm pretty sure Victor is not affected by any haste effect perks like Furtive Chase, Rapid Brutality, Batteries Included, etc, etc.
If I remember right, all perk effects, such as Auras and alike are applied/centred on Charlotte... so I severely doubt Victor gains bloodlust... if he does it would be applied to unconscious Charlotte... which is funny if nothing else 😅🤔
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Honestly I can't say I have enough experience with the killer to understand every change in depth, but everything seems extremely well written/argued and very well thought out, and I learned several things reading this thread. It all looks very reasonable to me.
Nothing but thumbs up good sir.
Would also be interested in thoughts on the add-on reworks... any ideas?
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@francesinhalover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936630#Comment_3936630
that's assuming everyones like you.
guess what? not the case.
pretty sure theres people with 2100 hours on dbd that cant even loop yet.
And people that work irl play 3-6 matches a week if lucky.
Sure, but my point is that people should not be DCing.
Set match lobbies in games likes DBD, League of Legends, Counter Strike team matches, DOTA, Marvel Rivals are games that do not function correctly with 1 player missing... you don't join any of these games either if you can't commit to the game.
This hypothetical person is the only DC person that could be consisered innocent, and not deserving of the penalty... if you've got minor emergencies or other things that come up that you couldn't have predicted, causing you to need jump out from the game suddenly, this is of course fair enough.
However things such as this should not be frequent occurrences, and in majority of cases, something urgent enough to have to drop the game, usually is something that you're going to have take time to do and ride out the penalty anyway.
Now if you're someone who knows you have a high risk of having to abandon the game urgently, and yet you regularly ignore that risk and still queue anyway to the point you can't even manage 20 games without having to drop, then accumulating a DC penalty is still a fault on you, and you still deserve the penalty, because it's not your game that you're ruining every time you have to drop.
Plus of course, we all know this person is a very small exception in those that are DCing, and the reality is vast majority of people are quitting just because they can, either for going next to make content, quitting cause they got the wrong map, killer or perk combo, or quitting cause they made a mistake.
The damage in health of the game these people bring far outweighs any damage a stricter DC penalty for someone DCing innocently (who should themselves look at why they keep DCing so often and start trying to avoid starting a game if there is a good chance they are going to have to DC).
Maybe a time based reset would be worth looking into in addition. 20 games or 12 days passes, whichever comes first, but other than that, the system is fine.
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Hmmm... at the risk of sounding a bit condescending...
I have 2100 hours in DBD... average match and queue time I'd high ball at 15-20 minutes... 3 matches an hour, that's 6300 matches, we'll call it 6000. 70% of my games have been survivor, which is about 4200 survivor games.
I've DCed from DBD maybe 3 times when the game was already seeing people quit, and suicided on hook 5 times that wasn't to give hatch in a lost game, usually as a result of teammates leaving me go second stage completely uncontested for no reason.
8 in 4200 is 1 in 525… I think 20 is pretty generous, personally. Yes this is a bit of a sarcastic point, but genuinely as someone who doesn't believe in quitting games to abandon my teammates, it takes A LOT to force me into DCing... so I find it hard to justify a lenient reset.
Of course that's assuming no false positives, but 1 in 20 seems a fairly reasonable to me.
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Chucky's legs are top tier.
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The simple reasons that 2v8 succeeds is because: -
- Killers get to play DBD with a friend.
- Killers get to play with powers that are proportionally stronger than normal in the 1 on 1.
- Survivors get wild and strong abilities far more outrageous than they normally have in 1v4.
- Despite being strong, the classes and powers are contained to a small selection, so doesn't facilitate overly oppressive and imbalanced perk/item/add-on combinations for both sides. (This is why Legion gets the hate they do, since their power edges into this issue).
- The self pick up, remote hooking, items only available in chests and the simple fact there are 2 killers doesn't allow slugging, tunneling or SWF squad bullying to be anywhere near as effective or prevelant.
- The aura reveals on unhooked survivors combined with the empowered killer powers means killers have an easier time finding players and downing, but Survivors have an easier time staying alive in the trial long term, making the game generally easier for all and generally more casual.
As such 2vs8 has less skill expression for both sides, but also allows both sides to feel powerful at various points. It's only issue really is the simple fact you need 8 players on survivor vs. the 2 on killer.
I would wonder, if you made no changes to killer powers at all, if 2vs6 might work as a more serious take on a 2 killer mode...
However 2vs8 is a mad cap causal romp not to be taken too seriously, which is why it succeeds... but there is a simple play count disparity. The experience of 2vs8 is wildly different for killer... it's pretty different to survivor, but not to the same degree, so you don't have the same influx of survivors you need from 1v4 to prevent such a disparity... but if 2v8 replaced 1v4... queue times would be fine.
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Sadly anything that isn't a dodgable ranged projectile or dodgable dash power is typically shunned by the community… and if map mobility isn't in the mix, it dies off hard
The stereotype isn't helped when you look at the last 10 killers released after Wesker: -
- Knight - Zoning/Cut Off killer, hated by the community.
- Skull Merchant - Zoning/Trap/Info/Stealth killer, hated by the community.
- Singularity - Map Mobile/Steroid killer, generally liked, but mixed feelings by community due to success of unique item based counterplay.
- Xenomorph - Map Mobile/Pseudo Ranged killer, generally liked, but mixed feelings by community due to success of unique item based counterplay.
- Chucky - Map Mobile/Dash/Stealth killer, hated by the Survivor community due to ease of dash hits until nerfed. Now generally perceived as fine, but hated by killers.
- Unknown - Map Mobile/Ranged Killer, loved by the community.
- Vecna - Map Mobile/Zoning/Ranged/Info Killer, mixed feelings by community due to difficulty playing around multiple spells/cooldowns.
- Dracula - Map Mobile/Ranged/Dash Killer, hated due to various stages where one power felt oppressive, now perceived as mostly fine.
- Houndmaster - Map Mobile/Ranged (Psuedo Dash)/Info killer, generally perceived as fine.
- Ghoul - Map Mobile/Dash/Cut Off killer, hated due to ease of injuries and cut off, required multiple nerfs to bring back in line, and still not well received.
- Spring Trap - Map Mobile/Ranged/Stealth Killer.
Considering how often Map Mobile, Ranged and/or Dash pop up in this list, it does feel a little like there is a template of "must haves" for each killer nowadays. Even Freddy's rework fits into this template.
Given that Cut Off/Zoning killers aren't liked, Stealth killers don't tend to be viable after getting multiple nerfs, and Info tends to be meh as well... the newer additions do have a "cut from the same cloth" kind of feeling.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763165#Comment_3763165
Pyscho Mantis, The Fear, The man on fire, the torture chamber, Vamp, the beauty and the beast unit.
There is a lot of horror elements in MGS, just like there is in Tomb Raider.
DBD is a game with a lot stealth and misdirection, something Solid Snake would be perfect for.To be fair, this was written nearly a year ago... the squinting is a little easier now xD
And if Alucard can be thrown on a hook, Snake probably can too... though that Snake is not strong beyond that of a normal man... ao I still struggle to see how anyone carries Snake on their shoulder without getting dropped like a bad habit...
Entity buffs will have to be pulling overtime to save killers elbows 🫠
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What birthday is complete without a single mangled and twisted boot... also is that a dishevelled bumbag? Or just a belt?
(I think you call then fanny packs in the US, and as someone in the UK I wonder if that's gonna make it past the word censor...)
Anyway Happy Birthday mate! 🤘😁🤘
EDIT: It does... amusing... 😅