Seraphor
Seraphor
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Everyone is overreacting to the basekit Unbreakable. Survivor mains are cackling in glee, while killer mains are crying about it being so unfair that survivors get a free meta perk.
Nobody seems to be giving the new Mori changes any attention, or any kind of critical analysis. It's the Mori changes that are atrocious, and the Unbreakable change is only necessary because of that.
The Last Standing Mori mechanics remove any and all meaningful interactions with survivors in the dying state, and any chance of endgame fun. Killers will no longer have the freedom to choose when and where to Mori, and survivors won't be able to make clutch plays to rescue slugged team mates or recover from a hopeless endgame scenario.
Killers will be encouraged to slug for the 4K, because now they have to to secure their Mori bonus or to bypass around 6 hook states to end the game early before survivors can power the exits. Which means more tunnelling, more sweaty playstyles, and more toxicity in general.
@Seraphor said:
Climb down from your towers of glee for one moment survivor mains and consider the reality of these changes.
Basekit Unbreakable is not being implemented to "prevent slugging for the 4K", it is being proposed purely because the new Mori changes for the Last Standing mechanic would be broken without it.
It in fact only promotes slugging for the 4K, because of the Mori changes.
Killers are now encouraged to activate the Last Standing Mori, either as a way to end the game easily, or to secure their BP bonus from using offerings.
The result of this is that the most efficient and likely only way to secure the Mori is to:
- Tunnel out two survivors.
- Slug the remaining two survivors in relay until they manage to get them both on the ground at the same time.
You will still be unable to repair all the gens with just two survivors and one perpetually slugged.
You will be stuck on the ground for even longer, unless you give up and refuse to pick yourself up off the ground. Because every time you get up you're pausing your bleedout timer, and the killer knows exactly where you are because they downed you, and you recovered instead of crawling, so they come right back and smack you down again. You will be stuck in this whack-a-mole game for much longer than 4 minutes.
Mori offerings will now be even more toxic, because if you see a killer has one, you know they're going to slug for the 4K. So whenever survivors load into a game with a hidden fifth offering, you know they're just going to DC or let themselves die right away.
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@ByeByeQ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3206218#Comment_3206218
SWF does confer a guaranteed advantage. Being in a SWF means you have teammates that give a tish about you.
I didn't ask for a nerf to SWF, just a buff to SoloQ that anyone in a SWF wouldn't benefit from. If the SWF isn't on comms or listening to and watching a fellow survivors, that's them wasting their opportunity to coordinate.
Then surely a survivor playing solo is simply wasting their opportunity to coordinate by not choosing to play SWF?
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I'm not concerned about the basekit Unbreakable, outside of the knock on effect it will have to solo survivors, namely that nobody will risk their ass to go for a save that could potentially trigger a finisher Mori when they know their teammate has basekit Unbreakable.
It's the Mori changes that concern me. I think this change is far too heavy handed, it removes countless gameplay options, and encourages sweaty killer playstyles to secure the finisher Mori. It removes player agency, so that killers can no longer choose when or where to use a Mori, and it removes the opportunity for survivors to make clutch end game plays, which are some of the most fun parts of the game. It's not holding M1 on generators for 5 minutes we play survivor for, it's those close call jukes that get us out the exit gates. Now you get smacked down and the game ends instantly, no hope of a last minute turn around.
This will make for a much more boring game. Nobody asked for this Mori system, and basekit Unbreakable is only necessary because of it.
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@ByeByeQ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3205914#Comment_3205914
I don't buy the argument that "if you buff SoloQ you have to give SWFs the same buffs or they'll complain" argument.
They get to have fun with their friends, there is no punishment there, while SoloQs get punished everyday because they're lost and alone.
Solo and SWF is not an absolute dichotomy.
You are not guaranteed an advantage when playing with friends, and you are not guaranteed to be paired with potatoes as a Solo survivor.
SWF merely offers the opportunity, the possibility, for coordination via communication, an opportunity that I can attest is not always taken advantage of. I often SWF without voice comms, and even when I do, I have voice in one ear, game sounds in the other ear, so no sense of directional sounds, and my friends spend the game talking ######### instead of making call outs. Throw in a discrete handicap to playing with friends and I simply won't.
As such, I much prefer playing Solo survivor, and my team mates are not always terrible. If you get players with decent game sense, players who are good survivors and know how to make good plays, you can communicate with as little as pointing and teabagging, and can pull off coordinated plays that the killer will assume must be a SWF.
For this reason, you cannot implement any significant mechanics that single out players who are in a preformed party. You simply can't know that they're at an advantage. They may not even have voice comms.
Instead, you implement mechanics that by their design do not give an advantage to players using voice comms. You create abilities that provide information that is superfluous to voice comms. Such as:
@Gandor said:
I still think the game should emulate the same kind of info for soloQ, that SWF has. This means no kindred (that's more then what SWF has), but something like killer instinct that gives general information.
+ You see other survivors build in lobby (you can play around it) + ping system (+ability to ping your perk at times) + hud actions indicator.
Having all these SWF will get marginally buffed (total 0 buff for really good SWF), but soloQ will get buffed a lot. I think that would make game more balanced.
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@Jeromy137 said:
While I understand the concept of heal tech being op and needing something to counter I do not agree with people saying you should be able to pull off a player mid heal that would be game breaking and buff aura perks like nurses calling way to much
Just make DS basekit and infinite. There fixed.
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Easy solution, they can make it so healing a survivor instantly ends the game. Oh but No Mither is made basekit for the entire game to compensate.
There, no more heal-tech. 100% healthy mechanic, game will be so much better.
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Make Deliverance basekit.
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@brokedownpalace said:
They're getting out of their systems while they still can unfortunately
Yet another downside to this short-sighted proposal. Not only will games be more sweaty and more toxic after the changes go through, but we'll have even more 4-man slugging up until they do go through because of the false expectations that come with it.
It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's only a problem because they said it's a problem and presented a solution to said problem.
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@Seraphor said:
Climb down from your towers of glee for one moment survivor mains and consider the reality of these changes.
Basekit Unbreakable is not being implemented to "prevent slugging for the 4K", it is being proposed purely because the new Mori changes for the Last Standing mechanic would be broken without it.
It in fact only promotes slugging for the 4K, because of the Mori changes.
Killers are now encouraged to activate the Last Standing Mori, either as a way to end the game easily, or to secure their BP bonus from using offerings.
The result of this is that the most efficient and likely only way to secure the Mori is to:
- Tunnel out two survivors.
- Slug the remaining two survivors in relay until they manage to get them both on the ground at the same time.
You will still be unable to repair all the gens with just two survivors and one perpetually slugged.
You will be stuck on the ground for even longer, unless you give up and refuse to pick yourself up off the ground. Because every time you get up you're pausing your bleedout timer, and the killer knows exactly where you are because they downed you, and you recovered instead of crawling, so they come right back and smack you down again. You will be stuck in this whack-a-mole game for much longer than 4 minutes.
Mori offerings will now be even more toxic, because if you see a killer has one, you know they're going to slug for the 4K. So whenever survivors load into a game with a hidden fifth offering, you know they're just going to DC or let themselves die right away.
Not only will it still be a thing, it will be more common.
Sure you'll get to lose quicker, but you'll get to lose more.
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A vault blocked by Claustrophobia isn't blocked for the killer, it's blocked for the survivor. Therefore the killer sees it in yellow, because it's a map feature that's giving them an advantage, it's serving as a dead end for the survivor.
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@VicRatlhead said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3205463#Comment_3205463
Downed or hooked, and it's just remaining survivors. You can still mori if you have two left and down the last survivor. It's just removing the necessity of dragging that last survivor to a hook for the guaranteed sacrifice. Slugging for the 4k is going to be a weak strategy with or without unbreakable. 45 sec isn't that long to run a killer either.
You can't risk hooking the third survivor. What if they kill themselves on hook to help their team mate get the hatch? Your Mori offering will be wasted.
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@VicRatlhead said:
Slug for the 4k? It takes 22 seconds to get up with unbreakable. Unless you're some super nurse slugging for 4k isn't happening.
It's literally the only way for killers to secure their Mori bonus.
Killers are now incentivised to finish the game with a Mori finisher, either because they brought a Mori offering which means they have to to get value out of it, or because doing so enables them to completely bypass 6 hooks and instantly end the game half-way through. The only way to do that is to ensure you down the final survivor. You can only do this if they don't get to the hatch first. So now there is even more reason for killers to make sure the last survivor doesn't reach that hatch.
It doesn't really matter that survivors can pick themselves up, and not everyone is going to be running Unbreakable, especially when it inevitably gets nerfed. If you only have two survivors in the game (because surprise surprise you tunnelled the first two out) you can safely keep one slugged while you search for the other one.
If the one you slugged gets up, you know exactly where they are, because they panicked about the finisher Mori and recovered instead of crawling away, so you just make a beeline straight back to them and smack them down again. Each time you do this you're covering more and more of the map, closing in on the final survivor. You might need to smack each survivor down a few times, but you will eventually have them both on the ground at the same time and secure your Mori. While you're playing this whack-a-mole game, those survivors won't have the opportunity to repair gens, because they're either recovering on the ground or hiding from you.
Survivors can now expect to spend even more time in this uninteractive stalemate, because every time you stand up, just to be instantly smacked back down again, you're pausing your 4 minute bleedout timer.
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@HugTheHag said:
It counts "last surivor" as the last survivor to be standing.
If another survivor is downed, or hooked, the hatch will not spawn and you will still be able to mori.
Thus, the best way to secure a Mori is to slug for the 4K.
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@Bran said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3205350#Comment_3205350
Just as bad. Then i'd definitely make sure to go after the unhooked instead. Would just give me a reason.
But if the survs leave their homies on the hook, that's them. Can't remedy everything.
Honestly, the fact that you couldn't tell my post was sarcasm speaks volumes to the state of the game, now that changes like these are being considered.
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@sulaiman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3205368#Comment_3205368
I really believe this is there for balance reason. I am a stealth player at heart, and i used to juke killers all the time, and they being able to overlook you because of a limited fov or a dark corner is a real balance thing.
The problem is already that many people use brightness filters, so hidding in a dark corner is mostly gone.
Map reworks left a lot of areas either without los-blockers, or with nowhere to go after you broke sight.
Iron Will nerf broke the close range juking once you are injured.
The game is more and more reduced to just hidding before the killer is there, as soon as you hear him, or just go into a chase (which for me is actually the boring part of the game. I like it as a hide-and-seek).
Thats why i am very sensible when it comes to further changes on whatever is left on stealth play.
Maybe they just give killers that fov-slider, but that will finally kill the almost-dead-horse stealthjuke in a chase. At that point, i will leave the game. And thats why i ask about compensations that keep stealth play alive, but noone is interested, and thats why it feels like people just want an additional advantage.
It does have balance considerations, but I would argue that the FOV is already far too restrictive for killers.
You can still juke killers using Shadowborn with the use of the environment, but what should never be a thing in the game is being able to hide directly in front of the killer.
If you're literally standing on the killers toes, they should be able to see you!
There's also the fact that you can blind a killer with flashlights from outside their FoV, meaning the killer can be blinded, and not see the survivor blinding them!
DBD has such an oddly specific default FoV at 87 degrees. (with Shadowborn increasing this by 15 to 102 degrees) Most games are around 90-100 degrees. Even a small increase to 95 degrees would improve the way killer feels to play, without giving survivors any significant disadvantage, outside of the aforementioned absurd scenario of hiding on the killers toes.
I don't think Survivor is in any need for a FoV increase, as their third person camera already allows for ample awareness of their surroundings.
Furthermore, stretched res was never useful for killers, outside of the niche scenario of allowing a Nurse to be able to see survivors in her periphery during her fatigue state. However survivors did make use of stretched res to see over obstacles they otherwise should have been able to.
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@Wezil said:
The Finisher Mori Dev. update has anti-slugging in it, which will help Solo queue's experience.
Will it?
What are solo survivors going to do when a team mate gets slugged halfway across the map when they know they have Unbreakable?
Before you would try to rescue them.
Now there's no incentive to do that. For one you're risking getting downed yourself and triggering Last Standing Mori, and secondly they can jus get themselves up in 45 seconds (but more realistically 60 seconds when they balance it after the PTB).
So now getting slugged will be a guaranteed 45(60)s wait on the ground doing nothing.
Soloq will be every man and woman for themselves.
Alternatively killers simply won't slug at all because they know they risk you getting yourself back up again, so without slugging, getting downed is a guarantee that you'll get hooked, there's no chance of a rescue from a team mate, no chance to avoid that hook.
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Added a more succinct explanation at the bottom to better explain my suggestion.
This is far simpler and more elegant than the mechanics proposed in the dev update, without any timers to worry about balancing, and doesn't have any of the downsides. Survivors still get a slugging counter, killers still get an extra Mori opportunity in any viable game, but neither of them are game breaking changes.
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@Bran said:
Yeah BT and UB basekit are both bad things. We don't need all this tuff basekit.
Next sabo is finna be basekit.
How about Deliverance? How boring is it for survivors to be left on the hook for a full 60 seconds and then go to stage 2 because their team mates won't rescue them?
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3156418#Comment_3156418
"If you didnt escape, was it really a skilled play to begin with?"
I need this quote mounted on my wall... like those awful inspiration quotes that people put in their homes, the "Live, Laugh, Love" signs, but instead it's just this quote.
First off, that's not the case. Their stance is that if you are a skilled survivor, you will escape more on average. Therefore an average of escapes/deaths is a metric of skill.
It's not an entirely accurate gauge of skill, but it's not as glib as everyone cries about.
Secondly. How is the game supposed to tell if you tanked a hit on purpose to save someone else, versus getting hit by accident because you were outplayed?
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Sure it is. You just need to aim the portal directly on top of the survivor, so that when you shoot youre only standing still for a fraction of a second.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3203876#Comment_3203876
I just see a lot of instadown/DeadLock/Lethal Pursuer/filler tracking and regression killers face camping from the very first hook and cleaning up the last two.
If one of the last two is seconds away from bleeding out, hook them for another brief window (still extra time if they sudoku) to find/slug number 4 to deny hatch.
I don't see this playing out the way people think it will at all with the current insta-win conditions proposed.
And those insta-win conditions aren't even fun for the killer.
You'll either lose the game, or you end every game with an unavoidable cutscene of your Mori.
I imagine we're all going to get bored of Mori's after this.
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@Terion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3204763#Comment_3204763
I cant down 4 survivors withing 45 seconds, if youre telling me adapt then you basicly say "get a pro at this game so you have a chance" and if that is the case i rather dont play at all. But the squads with their voice chat for sure can screw a killer with ease. Its not a balanced skill requirement.
But you can tunnel two survivors out then slug the other two survivors in 45s. You can end the game with a 4K in 6 hooks, 2 if you camp.
This is the 'adapting' killers will carry out. Have fun!
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This will not prevent slugging, it will make slugging meta:
@Seraphor said:
Climb down from your towers of glee for one moment survivor mains and consider the reality of these changes.
Basekit Unbreakable is not being implemented to "prevent slugging for the 4K", it is being proposed purely because the new Mori changes for the Last Standing mechanic would be broken without it.
It in fact only promotes slugging for the 4K, because of the Mori changes.
Killers are now encouraged to activate the Last Standing Mori, either as a way to end the game easily, or to secure their BP bonus from using offerings.
The result of this is that the most efficient and likely only way to secure the Mori is to:
- Tunnel out two survivors.
- Slug the remaining two survivors in relay until they manage to get them both on the ground at the same time.
You will still be unable to repair all the gens with just two survivors and one perpetually slugged.
You will be stuck on the ground for even longer, unless you give up and refuse to pick yourself up off the ground. Because every time you get up you're pausing your bleedout timer, and the killer knows exactly where you are because they downed you, and you recovered instead of crawling, so they come right back and smack you down again. You will be stuck in this whack-a-mole game for much longer than 4 minutes.
Mori offerings will now be even more toxic, because if you see a killer has one, you know they're going to slug for the 4K. So whenever survivors load into a game with a hidden fifth offering, you know they're just going to DC or let themselves die right away.
- Killers will now be encouraged to slug for the 4K in order to skip hook phases, and will infact be forced to slug for the 4K if they bring a Mori offering.
- Solo survivor will be 'every man for themselves' as no one is going to come to the rescue of someone they know has Unbreakable. Why would they risk their own safety and risk giving the killer a Mori? Be prepared to hang out on the ground for your entire recovery duration, which may well be increased from the proposed 45 seconds.
An actual anti-slugging mechanic would look like this:
@Seraphor said:
I've made several comments about how I think these proposed changes are godawful, but simply complaining doesn't get you anywhere, so I thought of an alternative or middle ground I'd be happy with.
Last Stand: When one survivor remains in the trial, you have the ability to Kill them by your own hand. Essentially a basekit Cypress Mori offering. The same changes to the Mori offerings go through, where the offerings simply award you BP scores if you kill the last survivor, and even Rancor. Devour Hope's 5 stack effect now enables you to kill one survivor by your own hand.
This is overall more of a nerf to killers, but it still reduces the toxicity of Mori's, and it doesn't remove player agency from killers and doesn't come with a system that requires basekit Unbreakable to function.
Basekit Unbreakable: When all survivors in the trial are downed or hooked, survivors in the dying state have the ability to pick themselves up. Once one survivor has picked themselves up from the dying state, the effect is disabled for the other survivors.
This allows one survivor to get up at a time, and potentially recover from an otherwise hopeless slugging situation. If that one survivor is downed again, then the effect activates again and one of the other survivors can get back up. This prohibits the "4 slugs at 5 gens" tactic, and if the killer attempts to slug for the 4K, then when he finds and downs the last survivor the one he slugged can get themselves back up again. This does everything that survivors are saying this new system fixes, without making general slugging through the natural course of the game a prohibitive tactic, and isn't so extreme as to require the rework of all perks that interact with the dying state. It still allows slugging to be employed as a method of applying pressure, with a safeguard to protect against obnoxious use of it.
To make it a bit clearer how this would work:
Last Standing: When no survivors are 'standing' (not in the hooked or dying state), the Last Standing mechanic activates, with an audible indicator for all players. A survivor who has fully recovered can pick themselves up without the use of any perks. The Last Standing effect is disabled when a survivor becomes 'standing' again.
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Can't bump this up enough.
Even as a fair-weather killer main, I consider this a form of basekit Unbreakable I would be more than happy with, even outside of the context of these proposed PTB changes.
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Nope. Never in favour of any discrete mechanic that separates solo or SWF players, because this is not an absolute dichotomy.
SWF isn't a guarantee of higher skill or better coordination, it allows for the possibility of it, but SWF players can also be bad, or they can be in a party but not on voice comms. I regularly play with friends without voice comms, not everyone is comfortable with it.
Solo players can learn to coordinate without use of voice comms, and IF (not too likely but still possible) they get paired up with similarly minded solo survivors, they can play in a way that is indistinguishable from a SWF from the killers POV. I've pulled off some incredible team plays using nothing but pointing and teabagging to communicate before, because generally if you know how to play survivor well and you know the usual strategies, it's fairly obvious what your team mates are trying to do.
How about instead of implementing mechanics that favour one side over the other, they add mechanics that don't favour SWF over solo players in the first place?
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@luvcraft said:
as for the "kindred gives more info than voice chat" argument, I think it's adorable that some people think SWF just uses voice chat rather than having their teammates' twitch streams open on a second monitor.
What a precious way of showing off that you have a fancy PC set up.
Unfortunately most of use don't stream evrything, and over half of us are on console.
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Seconded.
I don't understand all the balancing work to get the kill rate to where they want it, only to flip the entire game on it's head and scrap any shred of balance the game had.
Changing the main objective of killers from hooks to slugs, and then giving survivors basekit slugging counter, is such a monumental change to the gameplay flow I don't see how it can't completely knock game balance on it's head.
This would be on par with something like, removing all exit gates, adding four more Hatch spawns, and having repaired gens produce keys.
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You say that the current DC penalty only punishes people who don't want to DC. but... I don't see how this helps the players who don't want to DC.
If I don't want to DC, then being able to DC doesn't help me...
I want to play the game, not play the first half of every match then leave.
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This isn't basekit anti-slugging. It was a fix to allow the new Mori system to work, because without basekit Unbreakable the game would shift from hooks to slugs as the main objective of the killer.
It in fact encourages "slugging for the 4K" even more:
@Seraphor said:
Climb down from your towers of glee for one moment survivor mains and consider the reality of these changes.
Basekit Unbreakable is not being implemented to "prevent slugging for the 4K", it is being proposed purely because the new Mori changes for the Last Standing mechanic would be broken without it.
It in fact only promotes slugging for the 4K, because of the Mori changes.
Killers are now encouraged to activate the Last Standing Mori, either as a way to end the game easily, or to secure their BP bonus from using offerings.
The result of this is that the most efficient and likely only way to secure the Mori is to:
- Tunnel out two survivors.
- Slug the remaining two survivors in relay until they manage to get them both on the ground at the same time.
You will still be unable to repair all the gens with just two survivors and one perpetually slugged.
You will be stuck on the ground for even longer, unless you give up and refuse to pick yourself up off the ground. Because every time you get up you're pausing your bleedout timer, and the killer knows exactly where you are because they downed you, and you recovered instead of crawling, so they come right back and smack you down again. You will be stuck in this whack-a-mole game for much longer than 4 minutes.
Mori offerings will now be even more toxic, because if you see a killer has one, you know they're going to slug for the 4K. So whenever survivors load into a game with a hidden fifth offering, you know they're just going to DC or let themselves die right away.
An actual anti-slugging mechanic would be if the activation conditions of these two features were switched.
If when and only when all survivors are hooked/downed/sacrificed, then survivors or at least one survivor has the ability to pick themselves back up, then slugging would be a dead mechanic, because it would be literally impossible to keep every survivor on the ground at once.
@Seraphor said:
I've made several comments about how I think these proposed changes are godawful, but simply complaining doesn't get you anywhere, so I thought of an alternative or middle ground I'd be happy with.
Last Stand: When one survivor remains in the trial, you have the ability to Kill them by your own hand. Essentially a basekit Cypress Mori offering. The same changes to the Mori offerings go through, where the offerings simply award you BP scores if you kill the last survivor, and even Rancor. Devour Hope's 5 stack effect now enables you to kill one survivor by your own hand.
This is overall more of a nerf to killers, but it still reduces the toxicity of Mori's, and it doesn't remove player agency from killers and doesn't come with a system that requires basekit Unbreakable to function.
Basekit Unbreakable: When all survivors in the trial are downed or hooked, survivors in the dying state have the ability to pick themselves up. Once one survivor has picked themselves up from the dying state, the effect is disabled for the other survivors.
This allows one survivor to get up at a time, and potentially recover from an otherwise hopeless slugging situation. If that one survivor is downed again, then the effect activates again and one of the other survivors can get back up. This prohibits the "4 slugs at 5 gens" tactic, and if the killer attempts to slug for the 4K, then when he finds and downs the last survivor the one he slugged can get themselves back up again. This does everything that survivors are saying this new system fixes, without making general slugging through the natural course of the game a prohibitive tactic, and isn't so extreme as to require the rework of all perks that interact with the dying state. It still allows slugging to be employed as a method of applying pressure, with a safeguard to protect against obnoxious use of it.
Instead what we have is "slugging every survivor" as a new goal for killers, and the easiest way to win a game, with basekit Unbreakable implemented as a minor handicap to make that task a little harder.
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@crogers271 said:
The major element the game needs is to speed up the end game when the killer is looking like he'll get a 4k.
You will be stuck on the ground for even longer, unless you give up and refuse to pick yourself up off the ground. Because every time you get up you're pausing your bleedout timer, and the killer knows exactly where you are because they downed you, and you recovered instead of crawling, so they come right back and smack you down again. You will be stuck in this whack-a-mole game for much longer than 4 minutes.But you'll be up, which means you can play the game again.
Yes, if the killer can tunnel out two survivors and do it before the survivors are down to 1 gen, the killer can really draw out the game. That will stay true and I wish they would implement other changes to address it. Something that makes the killer drawing the game out for a 4k a risky proposition (much like survivors have to frequently takes risks in the game to recuse someone).
Mori offerings will now be even more toxic, because if you see a killer has one, you know they're going to slug for the 4K.Let's say you are correct, and I don't see any reason to doubt the possibility:
Just change mori offerings. Remove it as a BP bonus if players use it too much. I like the new Mori mechanic, but I don't understand why the old one needed to be removed as both seemed like they could exist at the same time.
If the killer slugged you, they know exactly where you are, and you're going to spend all your time recovering instead of crawling somewhere else because if they do catch the other survivor, you lose instantly. So the moment you pick yourself up, the killer comes straight back to where they downed you and down you again.
There's no time there to progress the game, it's a stalemate, until both remaining survivors are downed.
And why should Mori offerings being fixed be the solution here? This is what I don't understand, this entire suite of changes is like a train crash of bad ideas trying to rectify each other, when the correct solution was to scrap the very first bad idea.
The main change here is the Mori system. Nobody asked for forced, automatic Mori's that instantly end the game and remove agency from the killer, but that's the idea they decided to run with.
This Last Standing mechanic however doesn't work, because it now makes hooks worthless and slugging the main objective. So in order for it to be viable they have to implement Basekit Unbreakable to prevent easy slugging.
Except now Basekit Unbreakable means that they need to rework any and every possible perk and mechanic that interacts with survivors in the dying state.
And now on top of that they need to change all the Mori offerings, and change all the perks that have Mori's, and then they'll need to change all the killers that have to slug such as Twins, Oni, Myers, etc. and so on and so on.
Like, why not just not make a ridiculously restrictive Mori system that nobody asked for in the first place and save all of this hassle?
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202778#Comment_3202778
Kindred should be basekit because it is only meta for solo players. SWF doesn't need Kindred. Basekit Kindred would help bridge the gap between solo and SWF.
Auras are 100% more powerful than voice comms. They're faster (instant even), more accurate (you literally see them) and are not open to interpretation or subject to poor communication skills.
I still take Kindred even when I'm in a SWF, because of how much more reliable it is than relying on my team mates in every instance.
So I think Kindred base kit would be too strong, and it would benefit SWF. It would benefit Solo a tad more, but SWF would still be advantaged by it.
I'd be much more keen on something like a Killer Instinct effect for survivors instead. You see a 'heartbeat' graphic over the direction of other survivors, instead of a crisp, clean aura. You can move side to side to 'triangulate' their distance, and get a rough idea of where they are, similar to the level of information you'd get from someone saying "I'm near the killer shack" or "I'm going for the save" via voice comms.
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@BlackRabies said:
One thing that's really stuck on my mind. PTB isn't out yet I'm certain range killers like Huntress, Trickster, even Wesker throw will still trigger the finisher mori with their power across map even. Would Wesker's slam into wall into instant carry still trigger the finisher mori or no?
How about a Zombie slap?
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@I_am_Negan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3203333#Comment_3203333
But, isn't that the way killer is supposed to be played? Camp, tunnel and slug for the 4K?
If you're not playing like that, you're not playing killer correctly. Isn't that the first rule in the killer handbook? 😂
I'm sure they'll make the right changes if needed and if not it'll be scraped.
Yes decent killers are a dying breed, and apparently that's the way it's intended.
The game's being reduced to the sweatiest camp and tunnel fests, with no freedom of deviating from the path, no options, no fun.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3203279#Comment_3203279
Then I bring tenacity and unbreakable and make it very annoying for them to actually try to do that.
But they have to try it, they brought an Ebony Mori.
Their stakes are high, they absolutely need that 4K and a Mori.
They will hold you in that game for 30 minutes if they have to.
Can you not picture it? If you don't let them kill you you're being toxic. Brining an Ebony Mori is toxic. Survivors DCing the moment they see a hidden fifth offering.
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@ShinobuSK said:
Seeing people think UB wont be nerfed and mald about it on forums is hilarious ngl
Yep, 45s is way too short, they're bound to increase it to 60s at least.
Looking forward to being abandoned by my team mates on the ground for 60s now that there's no incentive to pick people up anymore...
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@I_am_Negan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201646#Comment_3201646
I do agree on devour that was one of my favorite perks to run.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201654#Comment_3201654
Play the PTB and give the feedback that they want to hear.
Most of what I read yesterday are just players jumping to conclusions take the one match and acting like it's every match.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202005#Comment_3202005
I'm on console so I can't take part in it, but exactly everything that was said could be changed in some sort of way or not even make it to live version.
Only time can tell. The unbreakable base kit that everyone was flipping out on is what was giving me the chuckles😂 The only way it could be that bad that so many that were having a nervous breakdown about was if they play to slug everyone. If everyone is waiting to Pallet save their not on gens.
All the killer mains are crying about Unbreakable being too strong to be basekit, while all the survivor mains are dancing in sadistic glee about having Unbreakable as basekit.
Nobody seems to care about the fact that the new mori system only encourages a far more obnoxious slugging playstyle, that will be even more toxic than it currently is, while removing player agency.
@Seraphor said:
Climb down from your towers of glee for one moment survivor mains and consider the reality of these changes.
Basekit Unbreakable is not being implemented to "prevent slugging for the 4K", it is being proposed purely because the new Mori changes for the Last Standing mechanic would be broken without it.
It in fact only promotes slugging for the 4K, because of the Mori changes.
Killers are now encouraged to activate the Last Standing Mori, either as a way to end the game easily, or to secure their BP bonus from using offerings.
The result of this is that the most efficient and likely only way to secure the Mori is to:
- Tunnel out two survivors.
- Slug the remaining two survivors in relay until they manage to get them both on the ground at the same time.
You will still be unable to repair all the gens with just two survivors and one perpetually slugged.
You will be stuck on the ground for even longer, unless you give up and refuse to pick yourself up off the ground. Because every time you get up you're pausing your bleedout timer, and the killer knows exactly where you are because they downed you, and you recovered instead of crawling, so they come right back and smack you down again. You will be stuck in this whack-a-mole game for much longer than 4 minutes.
Mori offerings will now be even more toxic, because if you see a killer has one, you know they're going to slug for the 4K. So whenever survivors load into a game with a hidden fifth offering, you know they're just going to DC or let themselves die right away.
As someone who 'identifies' as a killer main, but realistically plays much more survivor lately due to killer being so unfun to play, I don't care at all about Unbreakable as a killer, it's the Mori system I hate. I don't want the freedom to choose where and when to Mori taken away.
I do hate Unbreakable as basekit as a survivor though, because now there is no incentive to rescue survivors in the dying state. Solo survivor is about to get even more 'Solo' and 'everyone for themselves' as I get left on the floor for the entire 45s. Which will likely end up being more than 45s once they realise 45s is far too short of a duration. So I guess I'll be abandoned by my team mates for 60s or 90s instead. I like playing as a team.
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@I_am_Negan said:
Today has been a funny day many laughs😂
Just putting this out there
The Finishing Mori system, anti-slugging mechanic, and other changes mentioned in this post will be available for testing during next week’s Public Test Build. As a reminder, these new features will not be a part of the 6.3.0 update: This is an early preview that is not yet ready for release. We would like to gather your feedback early as we continue developing these features to make their eventual release as smooth as possible.
"This is an early preview that is not yet ready for release"
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/VA7PICJLYALO/image.png
"We would like to gather your feedback early as we continue developing these features to make their eventual release as smooth as possible."
There are changes coming
And
Don't forget to breathe very important.
There are no 'changes' that can make this feature acceptable. It's scrap or nothing.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
Don't forget, killers won't close the hatch anymore either. If you're already at that point in the game just stand on the open hatch and wait. What's the last survivor gonna do, finish gens?
Imagine having Adrenaline and Sole Survivor after the killers slugged you and closed the hatch... that can't happen now.
No more clutch game turn arounds at end game when the killer downs everyone but there's someone with Unbreakable or Soul Guard, etc.
So many fun gameplay options gone for good, reduced to a purely serious, sweaty gameplay loop of downing survivors as quick as you can.
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These changes are NOT going to prevent slugging:
@Seraphor said:
Climb down from your towers of glee for one moment survivor mains and consider the reality of these changes.
Basekit Unbreakable is not being implemented to "prevent slugging for the 4K", it is being proposed purely because the new Mori changes for the Last Standing mechanic would be broken without it.
It in fact only promotes slugging for the 4K, because of the Mori changes.
Killers are now encouraged to activate the Last Standing Mori, either as a way to end the game easily, or to secure their BP bonus from using offerings.
The result of this is that the most efficient and likely only way to secure the Mori is to:
- Tunnel out two survivors.
- Slug the remaining two survivors in relay until they manage to get them both on the ground at the same time.
You will still be unable to repair all the gens with just two survivors and one perpetually slugged.
You will be stuck on the ground for even longer, unless you give up and refuse to pick yourself up off the ground. Because every time you get up you're pausing your bleedout timer, and the killer knows exactly where you are because they downed you, and you recovered instead of crawling, so they come right back and smack you down again. You will be stuck in this whack-a-mole game for much longer than 4 minutes.
Mori offerings will now be even more toxic, because if you see a killer has one, you know they're going to slug for the 4K. So whenever survivors load into a game with a hidden fifth offering, you know they're just going to DC or let themselves die right away.
In addition, it essentially renders 'the dying state' a dead mechanic. Any and all interactions with survivors in the dying state are now pointless. An entire facet of the game loop has been deleted.
No more clutch saves at endgame when all survivors are downed but you have DS/UB/SG/BO/Adrenaline/Deliverance.
No more giving the hatch to survivors you've downed.
No more slugging a freshly unhook survivor instead of tunnelling them, if you down a survivor shortly after they've been unhooked you have no choice but to hook them again.
SWF bully squads are now even more untouchable, so expect more teabagging in your face as they know they're invincible.
And to a lesser extent but still sad to lose; no more slug races, no more cinematic mori's that you can position yourself, no more dicking around with friends having fun, just serious gameplay.
So many fun gameplay options will disappear because of this.
Imagine having Adrenaline and Sole Survivor when the killer slams the hatch closed? Never going to happen now.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3203288#Comment_3203288
Oh I play saboteur in my build in almost all the games I play and know exactly what I am talking about.
In saloon there is chance to get sabo play only if killer is greedy for scourge hooks. Or you are playing 4 man SWF sabo build + you get really lucky (you need to get at least 2 hooks down).
The game is marginally better, but still awful. It's been so many times that I have seen the really small corner upper sections of map having 2 hooks - I can't believe it's even declared minimal 15m.
I downed someone by the exit in Dead Dawg, when it was behind the Saloon.
The only hook in range was the one on the corner of the Saloon. It got sabotaged. All four escaped.
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No? Is nobody seeing this?
Is nobody else thinking like a killer who wants their 20,000 BP bonus from the Ebony Mori?
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3203274#Comment_3203274
It's impossible to find yourself in the game where at least 2 hooks are not within your reach (bad RNG and you are in a corner downstairs). Usually you can get to 5-7 hooks. Every "room" has at least 1 hook (sometimes 2) and the middle part can be considered 4 rooms (but they are shared with bottom so there is little bit lower density of hooks here - still there are plenty of hooks).
Also flip-flop + tenacity do nothing if you are immediately picked up. Boil over practically only hides closest hook (so if killer is observant, the perk does nothing) with the small exception to doors (yes lery's is ideal for this) as they can prolong carrying when killer can't get quickly thru the doors - and yet this can be combated again if killer gets the rhythm of boil over to actually move quicker...
"It's impossible to find yourself in the game where at least 2 hooks are not within your reach"
Again you post an absurd and completely incorrect statement. Do you even play this game? Hook deadzones are not only possible, they're common in many maps.
"Also flip-flop + tenacity do nothing if you are immediately picked up."
Incorrect. If you start moving and recovering instantly, you can recover up to 10% of your bar by the time the killer is able to pick you up (they have to finish their animation and then move again to be on top of you), which gives you 5% wiggle progress automatically. This was enough to make me unhookable in the middle of Lerys, with no hooks already consumed via sacrifices.
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@Xendritch said:
I think I'm willing to trade any potential negatives from this in return for not having to be on the ground for 4 minutes, I don't love it but what we have now kinda sucks too so I'm willing to give it a chance.
What about when the killer tunnels out two of your team mates, slugs you and goes after the final survivor?
Yes slugging for the 4K will still be a thing, because the Last Standing mechanic ensures it. Killers are encouraged to activate their Mori now, to either bypass hook stages and end the game early, or to secure their 20,000 BP bonus for the Mori offering. This means the only way to secure that bonus will be to slug for the 4K.
yes the survivors will just pick themselves back up, but that just means the killer will have to keep knocking you back down again.
Instead of lying on the ground for 4 minutes, you'll be playing whack-a-mole (sorry, you're the mole) with a killer who knows exactly where you are because he knows where he downed you.
This will have you held hostage in a game longer than 4 minutes, because every time you pick yourself back up (just to get smacked back down again) you're pausing your 4 minute timer.
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@Omans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3203164#Comment_3203164
Not quite more hours just on killer, but not too far off.
Are you doing a little dance for a few seconds after you pick up the survivor before you look for the hook? Not being able to reach even a single hook is a very rare occurance. Having 2 or 3 within your reach is the norm. 4-5 if you use the perks mentioned.
Currently the game map is the only map with any real hook spawn issues.
"Currently the game map is the only map with any real hook spawn issues."
That's a ridiculous statement.
Not only is Midwich on par with The Game, if not worse when it comes to reaching a hook, indoor maps are also usually worse than outdoor maps. I've had similar issues on Lerys and RPD, where I've been unable to reach a hook due to walls blocking a direct route.
With the shoe on the other foot, I've also made myself unhookable in Lerys before, by going down behind the desk in the central 'office' area with Boil Over, Flip Flop and Tenacity. Right in the middle of the map, the killer was completely unable to hook me.
(now that was a bit of a meme perk build, because my fourth perk was of course Unbreakable, but without needing to run Unbreakable now, that frees up a perk slot and makes my "can't hook me" build actually viable as a serious load out)
Additionally many 'open' maps such as the core maps like Coldwind, Autohaven, MacMillan etc. have corners that becomes deadzones if just one hook is consumed.
So no, hook spawn issues are present on virtually every map, and just as survivors can be screwed by the twin hooks on Coldwind, killers can only be screwed as well.
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Last Standing should be the condition that activates basekit Unbreakable, not the other way around:
@Seraphor said:
I've made several comments about how I think these proposed changes are godawful, but simply complaining doesn't get you anywhere, so I thought of an alternative or middle ground I'd be happy with.
Last Stand: When one survivor remains in the trial, you have the ability to Kill them by your own hand. Essentially a basekit Cypress Mori offering. The same changes to the Mori offerings go through, where the offerings simply award you BP scores if you kill the last survivor, and even Rancor. Devour Hope's 5 stack effect now enables you to kill one survivor by your own hand.
This is overall more of a nerf to killers, but it still reduces the toxicity of Mori's, and it doesn't remove player agency from killers and doesn't come with a system that requires basekit Unbreakable to function.
Basekit Unbreakable: When all survivors in the trial are downed or hooked, survivors in the dying state have the ability to pick themselves up. Once one survivor has picked themselves up from the dying state, the effect is disabled for the other survivors.
This allows one survivor to get up at a time, and potentially recover from an otherwise hopeless slugging situation. If that one survivor is downed again, then the effect activates again and one of the other survivors can get back up. This prohibits the "4 slugs at 5 gens" tactic, and if the killer attempts to slug for the 4K, then when he finds and downs the last survivor the one he slugged can get themselves back up again. This does everything that survivors are saying this new system fixes, without making general slugging through the natural course of the game a prohibitive tactic, and isn't so extreme as to require the rework of all perks that interact with the dying state. It still allows slugging to be employed as a method of applying pressure, with a safeguard to protect against obnoxious use of it.
The Mori changes mean that killers are now incentivised to down every survivor, which will only lead to more "slugging for 4K", as it's the only way to secure your bonus for playing a Mori offering.
But if survivors could get themselves up only when every survivor is down, then it would prevent obnoxious slugging rather than encouraging it.
Once again, BHVR's anti-X measures are having the opposite effect.
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@vladspellbinder said:
I want the "Mori the last person" as an option for my games not something that is forced on me so I like your idea change. However I'd say rework the Moris to still let you kill more and more Survivors: turn Cypress into what Ivory does now, Ivory allows for two, and finally Ebony gives you three. So you would be able to kill two, three, and then all four Survivors in order counting the base-kit one Mori with all of them being optional. Though if you didn't take the option after having burned an offering you are of course losing out on that offering.
Your idea for the "Everyone can get up off the ground without help" is also a good fix, addressing the main problem Killer players have with the original idea while also addressing the part the change was for in the first place: excess four person slugging.
So good ideas over all. Shame the devs barely ever listen to feedback in a timely manner.
I'm sure they listen, unfortunately it's like looking for a needle in a haystack, any good ideas get drowned out by the screaming masses.
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@Reshy said:
The whole unbreakable change is like using a rocket launcher to get rid of an annoying bird. Not only are you likely to miss, but there's going to be a lot of collateral damage.
They've already missed.
The survivor hive mind seems to be rejoicing that "slugging for the 4K" is dead, but that's not what's going on here.
Not only was that not the intention (it's only proposed because the Last Standing Mori system would be broken without it) but it will actually result in more "slugging for the 4K".
The new Mori offerings only reward you if you finish the game with a Mori. This means in order to secure their 20K bonus, killers will needs to: tunnel out two survivors, then slug the remaining two survivors in relay until they manage to get them both on the ground at the same time.
If you thought lying on the ground for four minutes while the killer tried to find your last teammate was fun, just wait until you're smacked down like whack-a-mole every time you get up while the killer fights your 45s timer in an effort to secure their Mori.
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@Ryuhi said:
The entire situation is a good example as to why people need to stop being so damn hyperbolic with their arguments.
Survivors are saying the change will punish people trying to BM bleed out survivors, this is true. Also that it will prevent other extended slugging applications, like knockout builds. This is also true. Neither of these statements are incorrect, nor are they bad.
Killers are saying that these changes will completely kill valid strategies, which is true. They are also saying that it will have a direct impact on valid reasons where slugging has been forced by survivors to be the only viable response. This is also true. Neither of these statements are incorrect, nor are they good, either.
Everyone is talking at each other and nobody is listening. Both sides are correct in most of these assessments, but they're not mutually exclusive, which means the side that it is affecting negatively has valid concerns that should be addressed before the idea is attempted. Instead everyone just wants to invalidate anyone who doesn't agree with them, while they could be working out compromise and/or a plan that addresses everyone.
Compromise:
@Seraphor said:
I've made several comments about how I think these proposed changes are godawful, but simply complaining doesn't get you anywhere, so I thought of an alternative or middle ground I'd be happy with.
Last Stand: When one survivor remains in the trial, you have the ability to Kill them by your own hand. Essentially a basekit Cypress Mori offering. The same changes to the Mori offerings go through, where the offerings simply award you BP scores if you kill the last survivor, and even Rancor. Devour Hope's 5 stack effect now enables you to kill one survivor by your own hand.
This is overall more of a nerf to killers, but it still reduces the toxicity of Mori's, and it doesn't remove player agency from killers and doesn't come with a system that requires basekit Unbreakable to function.
Basekit Unbreakable: When all survivors in the trial are downed or hooked, survivors in the dying state have the ability to pick themselves up. Once one survivor has picked themselves up from the dying state, the effect is disabled for the other survivors.
This allows one survivor to get up at a time, and potentially recover from an otherwise hopeless slugging situation. If that one survivor is downed again, then the effect activates again and one of the other survivors can get back up. This prohibits the "4 slugs at 5 gens" tactic, and if the killer attempts to slug for the 4K, then when he finds and downs the last survivor the one he slugged can get themselves back up again. This does everything that survivors are saying this new system fixes, without making general slugging through the natural course of the game a prohibitive tactic, and isn't so extreme as to require the rework of all perks that interact with the dying state. It still allows slugging to be employed as a method of applying pressure, with a safeguard to protect against obnoxious use of it.
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If you want a less extreme addition to the game that would actually prevent slugging for the 4K, I'd suggest making Basekit Unbreakable only active if and when all survivors in the trial are downed or hooked. Basically, if all survivors are slugged, one of them can get themselves back up. This prevents killers from slugging for the 4K as it would actually be impossible, and in cases where killers slug everyone early on, it provides a last ditch attempt to recover form that hopeless scenario, by having one survivor pick themselves up and go to their teammates rescue.
As I suggest here:
@Seraphor said:
I've made several comments about how I think these proposed changes are godawful, but simply complaining doesn't get you anywhere, so I thought of an alternative or middle ground I'd be happy with.
Last Stand: When one survivor remains in the trial, you have the ability to Kill them by your own hand. Essentially a basekit Cypress Mori offering. The same changes to the Mori offerings go through, where the offerings simply award you BP scores if you kill the last survivor, and even Rancor. Devour Hope's 5 stack effect now enables you to kill one survivor by your own hand.
This is overall more of a nerf to killers, but it still reduces the toxicity of Mori's, and it doesn't remove player agency from killers and doesn't come with a system that requires basekit Unbreakable to function.
Basekit Unbreakable: When all survivors in the trial are downed or hooked, survivors in the dying state have the ability to pick themselves up. Once one survivor has picked themselves up from the dying state, the effect is disabled for the other survivors.
This allows one survivor to get up at a time, and potentially recover from an otherwise hopeless slugging situation. If that one survivor is downed again, then the effect activates again and one of the other survivors can get back up. This prohibits the "4 slugs at 5 gens" tactic, and if the killer attempts to slug for the 4K, then when he finds and downs the last survivor the one he slugged can get themselves back up again. This does everything that survivors are saying this new system fixes, without making general slugging through the natural course of the game a prohibitive tactic, and isn't so extreme as to require the rework of all perks that interact with the dying state. It still allows slugging to be employed as a method of applying pressure, with a safeguard to protect against obnoxious use of it.
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- Tunnel out two survivors.
- Slug the last two in a relay until you manage to get them both on the ground at the same time.
Pretty much the only way to guarantee your 20k from the Ebony Mori offering and likely the new meta for those "slug for the 4K" type killers.
So much fun for everyone involved.
It's gonna make Mori offerings so much more toxic than they currently are.