Seraphor
Seraphor
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The new Haddonfield honestly isn't that bad. As always it will depend on the killer, some do better than others, but in a general killer vs. survivor sense it's fairly balanced.
Same with Dead Dawg, Temple of Purgation, and Yamaoka. All relatively balanced maps.
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I always struggle to take meaningful conclusions from things like this, because these two figures are contradictory. Your killer figures allow for a 20% escape rate, while your survivor figures allow for a 50% kill rate.
You're either an above average survivor, or an above average killer, or both. Which by definition means it doesn't reflect the average player's experience.
More over, your survivor figures show that the whole team is doing better than the teams you go against as killer.
How do you determine where your strengths are? Are you an above average killer but an average survivor, indicating that the game is in fact perfectly balanced?
Or are you above average survivor as well, indicating that the game is killer sided?
It can't be an indicator that "MMR just doesn't work" because not every killer can have an 80-90% kill rate in an ecosystem that allows for a 50% escape rate.
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@Nicholas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3214701#Comment_3214701
The validation at pallets is pretty good but everywhere else is garbage. Hits are still handled on The Killer's end, and validation only steps in during edge cases of (last I checked) 300 or higher. 299 is an immense advantage, especially considering some players induce lag to gain that advantage. Even 100 can be painful. I don't expect a perfect system, but Favor The Killer's permanent advantage isn't fun or fair.
Validation is so modest. Otherwise, you would hear killer players complaining about rejected hits. We saw all that drama when DH and Pallet Validation was initially implemented; then, the devs toned down the extent of it because of the cries. Killer players are so accustomed to every hit prevailing that BVHR may be unable to wean them off FTK.
The streamers were making videos where a DH hit was rejected, or a pallet hit rejected, and how unfair that was, and the devs capitulated. Meanwhile, the Survivors that have been dealing with fake hits since day one are ignored. It doesn't matter if the Survivor has a great connection and cleared the vault; if that laggy killer saw the hit connect, that has to prevail. Survivors are expected to accept that unfairness in every Trial. And any attempt by the devs to minimize that unfairness and close the gap is often met with resistance about how devastating it is for a hit to get rejcected. I can assure you, for a Survivor, getting hit can be devastating too!
As SpaghettiVase mentioned:
@SpaghettiVase said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3214703#Comment_3214703
I mean literally every video game that works like this has a “favour the shooter” system.
Every real time game like this is validated on the end of the player taking the action. This has to work this way because the alternative, or "favour the shootee" just doesn't work. It results in a situation where the "shooter" is simply too slow to hit anything, as everything they 'aim' at is always somewhere else at the time.
For DBD, it would mean a sufficiently slow killer would need to predict where the survivor is going to be in a couple seconds time, or if in a straight chase, it would mean the killer would need to phase through the survivor, to get in front of them so they could swing where the survivors is going to be in a couple seconds into the future.
For survivors, it just means you need to allow a buffer zone, leave a little more room between you and the killer. It's not ideal, but it's more than achievable, unlike literally predicting the future.
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@JayDoesGames said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3214640#Comment_3214640
So basically what I said about favor the shooter system is right. killers get the advantage if they have the higher ping. It's BS and will always make the game unfair.
Did you read the post you quoted?
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@JayDoesGames said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3214658#Comment_3214658
I'm pretty sure the server doesnt validate hits anymore. I've gone in against killers with red ping and they still get all of these laggy hits.
Hits are still validated where there's conflicting elements, such as at vaults or pallets where the hit is competing with a grab or a stun.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3212951#Comment_3212951
All you're doing is treating symptoms.
Try to address the root issue.
Why do people want out of matches?
Because they can't accept losing?
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You just don't understand how hitboxes work in this game.
When you're running, you hitbox is a 'sausage' shape, directly above your feet.
Your head is actually completely safe, you can't hit it, but the space above your feet is vulnerable.
This is apparent when you're running or injured, and worse when running AND injured.
@Peanits said:
That second one was definitely in range. The window does not make you safe.
Regarding hatchet hitboxes: They were changed to not be spherical a while back, but the change needed to be reverted (as others have mentioned in the thread). I'll have to bust out my amazing drawing skills. This is what the hitboxes look like:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/951/064VTXBXO9FV.png
The survivor has a "capsule" shaped box around them. This determines where they can run and whether or not the killer can hit them. This hitbox does not change, the only exception is that it's a little shorter when you crouch. If it did change, it would cause all sorts of issues in a chase. You would be bumping into stuff constantly.
The hatchets, on the right, have a spherical hitbox.
Why?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/865/1H6FXDEB7NWL.png
When a survivor is injured, they're slouched over as they run. In the example above, you can see what that's important. The hitbox of the hatchet overlaps with the hitbox of the survivor, so the hatchet hits.
Now if you were to make it more closely match the size of the hatchet, you'd end up with this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/179/71B2V2F3VHJ5.png
In spite of the hatchet going right through the survivor (visually), it does not touch the survivor's hitbox, and so the hatchet would miss. We have tried this change and the past, but it was reverted because it caused a lot of issues like this.
To go back to the first hit, this is the scenario that played out:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/108/GSA2X94XI4KT.png
This is what the killer sees. It looks a little weird because of the survivor's animation, but the hitboxes overlapped. But then you need to factor in latency:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/840/FOJAHZN0WKOD.png
This is what the survivor sees (with what the killer sees faded out). Latency sucks, you can't really get rid of it. It's a fact of life with online games. There's always going to be a slight discrepancy in online games. Since the hit is currently handled on the killer's end, even 100 ping can make a difference. (Survivor running at 4m/s x 0.1 = 40cm difference between what the killer sees and what the survivor sees.)
The ultra short version: Hatchet hitboxes can't change unless the survivor hitboxes are completely reworked, but latency is also in play.
They tried to change this 18 months ago with new animations but everyone hated it.
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@SmarulKusia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3210023#Comment_3210023
Again, not sure why that is your take-away from my post. I am not against the change in of itself, I am against them trying to hide the change behind it being an 'accessibility' change because it's a lame way to protect yourself against criticism.
Ooh I see. You're angry because you can't curse out BHVR for implementing a "killer sided" change without coming across as if you hate children with epilepsy.
So you've pulled the "how dare you make me look like the bad guy" card.
What a Karen move.
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The fact that "it's been in the game for years" doesn't provide any evidence for either motive.
If they just wanted to change them to "buff killers" (not even sure how it's a killer buff) then they also could have done it years ago.
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Because every new feature spawns 100 new bugs.
They could maybe tackle 200 at a time but not 500.
(Precise numbers hypothetical)
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@Mandy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3209180#Comment_3209180
It's not scheduled to go live next patch...that's not to say it's not going to come to Live at any point. The new mori system needs testing and refining, which is why it's in this PTB.
@Rizzo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3209180#Comment_3209180
I think that the fact the changes are not coming out with this patch doesn't mean they don't need to be tested or that the PTB is pointless.
They specifically said they want as much feedback and testing as possible, as they are going to have a big impact on the game.
Is there any chance that the Mori and Unbreakable changes get scrapped? Or are they basically guaranteed to be implemented in some form eventually?
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@Wezil said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3209189#Comment_3209189
This was considered balanced. And yes a ~60% kill rate is balanced, as explained in this topic:
Really? Find me a post telling everyone that a ~60% kill rate is where the developers want balance to be at? At some point in the past, the developers did say 53% was too low. However, the developers testing built in Unbreakable tells me that ~60% kill rate is NOT where the developers want the kill rate to be at and in fact want it to be lower.
Also, the developers could change their minds. Maybe all the suicides and DCs that everyone is complaining about indicates to the developers that 60% is too high. The developer road-map certain seems to have changed now that 6.1 has been out a while and now the Developers are working on improving survivor gameplay.
Actions speak louder than words. But I guess you can continue to say that 60% is balanced, even though the developers actions seem to indicate otherwise?
"However, the developers testing built in Unbreakable tells me that ~60% kill rate is NOT where the developers want the kill rate to be at and in fact want it to be lower."
Once again, basekit Unbreakable is only a fix for the new Mori changes. But you've already stuck your fingers in your ears at that point.
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@Wezil said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3209075#Comment_3209075
"Why should killers be able to use a technique that survivors have no counter for"
No counter? Aiding your fellow survivors is the counter. You can pick up survivors in the dying state. That's the counter, and it's been basekit since the game came out!
So the counter for a 4 man slug is to get one of your slugged survivor teammates to pick you up?
This is a completely misunderstood statistic. Killers have had a 60-70% kill rate for the majority of the games lifespan, only dropping to a low of 50% before patch 6.1 thus requiring much needed buffs. This is the balanced state in an asymmetrical game. It is a misuse of statistics to reduce all kill rates over all skill levels to a single number. Most of that 61% is made up of low skill levels where killers dominate. Anything between 50% and 70% is still an average of a 2K and completely imperceptible to the individual survivor.
I find it interesting that the developers spend a bunch of time and effort making an infographic and then publishing that infographic so every online DBD player will see it. Then the mods and developers make a bunch of statements corroborating that 61%. Then on top of that, the Developers are making Unbreakable base-kit as if the developers feel like they can buff survivors for some mysterious reason. Yes, for killer-players, that 61% means killers are underpowered, however for everyone else, including developers, that 61% seems to mean that Killers are OP.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TKYZJIOK5KYH/image.png
It's absolutely not. For one, I've been playing survivor, and solo survivor mostly, for years, and in all that time I've had a Nurse slug all four survivors and bleed us out for 4 minutes exactly ONCE. This was not a common problem until this change was announced. Suddenly, overnight, all survivor mains started crying about slugging. It was never an issue before.
It's nice that you haven't experienced this often. However, because you haven't experienced it often, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, right?
Secondly, the changes aren't even meant to address slugging! the intended change is solely the changes to the Mori system. The system that, if slugging was allowed to continue, would result in a complete overhaul to the game by turning the killers main objectives from hooks into slugs. The Mori system requires basekit Unbreakable to function, that's the sole reason basekit Unbreakable was even considered. You are absolutely deluded if you think they seriously considered adding a meta perk like Unbreakable as a basekit feature on it's own merits, just after they rebalanced the game to the point they wanted it at.
I'm not responding to this because it's just flat out silly. Where are you coming up with "Secondly, the changes aren't even meant to address slugging!" LOL!
Read those dev comments again. 53% was "a little lower than they'd like".
Please go back and find historic kill rates, such as:
This was considered balanced. And yes a ~60% kill rate is balanced, as explained in this topic:
@adsads123123123123 said:
Kill rates aren't as useful or accurate as win rates. Killers typically interpret 0-1 kills as a loss, 2 kills as a draw, and 3-4 kills as a win. Kill rates can be misleading. For example, say the results for 3 matches were:
1k
1k
4k
This would result in a 50% kill rate but only a 33% win rate. If only kill rate was shown, it would make a certain killer seem balanced when in reality that killer was losing most matches. The kill rate will likely be higher than the win rate because when a killer wins, it's typically a 4k rather than a 3k. A 3k usually only occurs through hatch escapes or when the exit gates are too far apart to patrol. This theory is supported by data from NightLight (https://nightlight.gg/killers). It can be seen that on most killers the 4k rate is almost double that of 3k whereas 0k and 1 are about the same. This would result in a higher kill rate than win rate.
Additionally, I think that mmr should be based on wins rather than whether a specific survivor is killed or not because DBD is a game based on objectives. A survivor that dies could contribute more than one that survived. Awarding mmr for surviving is like awarding mmr for kda rather doing the objective.
Finally, games where any player disconnects should be excluded. If the killer disconnects, it's 4 escapes for survivors. If a survivor disconnects, it's usually a free 4k for the killer. These games aren't representative of a normal game.
You are coming at this from a survivor bias, instead of looking at it objectively. But no doubt you will accuse me of being a killer main despite the fact that I play at least twice as much survivor.
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@Wezil said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3209014#Comment_3209014
Slugging is not an 'outdated' mechanic, it's a core mechanic of the game, just like hooking, pallets, loops, etc. It's what allows survivors to interact with each other and is the sole purpose of 'the dying state'. It has multiple perks built around it including Unbreakable, Soul Guard, Flip Flop, Tenacity, No Mither, Boon: Exponential, Adrenaline, Deer Stalker, Knock Out, plus any perks that aid in healing team mates like We'll Make It or Botany Knowledge.
It is now.
Survivors won't have any reason to aid either other in the dying state anymore, because frankly killers either just won't slug, and eliminate any possibility of making a rescue play, or the survivors will know that the slugged survivor has Unbreakable (as basekit) and will feel no pressure to leave their gen. They will be safer working on their gen, and won't risk going down in an attempt to make a save and potentially trigger a finisher mori.
A survivor being on the ground for 45 seconds, not doing a generator, is good for the Killer not Survivors. Slugging is still useful
It is a core method of applying pressure for killers, by having one survivor slugged, you ensure that another survivor has to come to their aid, which equates to two survivors not on gens. At the cost of losing a potential hook.
You can still slug and it still useful. It just doesn't last infinitely.
Is this sort of dynamic, on the spot decision making that is being taken away. There will be no more last minute turn arounds, where everyone is on the ground, but one survivor has Unbreakable or an equivalent perk, and turns a 4K into a 2K.
Why should killers be able to use a technique that survivors have no counter for, unless they bring a perk?
And by taking away a core method of applying pressure, that was in no way toxic specifically because it allowed for rescue plays from survivors, you are reducing killers to tunnel bots. Every valid avenue of pressure you remove form the killers toolkit simply pushes them towards employing more and more cheap, sweaty, more efficient tactics.
With Killers getting a 61% kill rate. The developers have 11% room to play with removing other unfun tactics, like tunneling and face camping.
Boons deleted hit and run, basekit Unbreakable is deleting slugging, there's only camping and tunnelling left.
Camping and Tunneling will probably be addressed next.
BTW, it's Toxic Killer-Players that caused this change. Do you think the developers want new players ran from the game because Killers are 4 man slugging and letting those players bleed out for 4 minutes while nodding their head. If you want someone to blame, blame killer players for making the developers address this.
"Why should killers be able to use a technique that survivors have no counter for"
No counter? Aiding your fellow survivors is the counter. You can pick up survivors in the dying state. That's the counter, and it's been basekit since the game came out!
"With Killers getting a 61% kill rate."
This is a completely misunderstood statistic. Killers have had a 60-70% kill rate for the majority of the games lifespan, only dropping to a low of 50% before patch 6.1 thus requiring much needed buffs. This is the balanced state in an asymmetrical game. It is a misuse of statistics to reduce all kill rates over all skill levels to a single number. Most of that 61% is made up of low skill levels where killers dominate. Anything between 50% and 70% is still an average of a 2K and completely imperceptible to the individual survivor.
"BTW, it's Toxic Killer-Players that caused this change."
It's absolutely not. For one, I've been playing survivor, and solo survivor mostly, for years, and in all that time I've had a Nurse slug all four survivors and bleed us out for 4 minutes exactly ONCE. This was not a common problem until this change was announced. Suddenly, overnight, all survivor mains started crying about slugging. It was never an issue before.
Secondly, the changes aren't even meant to address slugging! the intended change is solely the changes to the Mori system. The system that, if slugging was allowed to continue, would result in a complete overhaul to the game by turning the killers main objectives from hooks into slugs. The Mori system requires basekit Unbreakable to function, that's the sole reason basekit Unbreakable was even considered. You are absolutely deluded if you think they seriously considered adding a meta perk like Unbreakable as a basekit feature on it's own merits, just after they rebalanced the game to the point they wanted it at.
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It would be kinda hard to test any other significant changes at the same time as a major overhaul to the game such as the Mori/basekit Unbreakable changes.
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@Wezil said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3208977#Comment_3208977
It's not stripping any gameplay options from survivors and is in fact removing an outdated gameplay mechanic that is absolutely unfun for the vast majority of players.
Killers will still have the option to slug, so the developers are not removing that gameplay option from killers, they are however nerfing it. You can still slug, you just can't do it infinitely. You have to manage your slugging time. In fact, 6.1 has made it so slugging isn't necessary. If you are using slugging now, it means your playing way outside your skill level.
Slugging is not an 'outdated' mechanic, it's a core mechanic of the game, just like hooking, pallets, loops, etc. It's what allows survivors to interact with each other and is the sole purpose of 'the dying state'. It has multiple perks built around it including Unbreakable, Soul Guard, Flip Flop, Tenacity, No Mither, Boon: Exponential, Adrenaline, Deer Stalker, Knock Out, plus any perks that aid in healing team mates like We'll Make It or Botany Knowledge.
Survivors won't have any reason to aid either other in the dying state anymore, because frankly killers either just won't slug, and eliminate any possibility of making a rescue play, or the survivors will know that the slugged survivor has Unbreakable (as basekit) and will feel no pressure to leave their gen. They will be safer working on their gen, and won't risk going down in an attempt to make a save and potentially trigger a finisher mori.
It is a core method of applying pressure for killers, by having one survivor slugged, you ensure that another survivor has to come to their aid, which equates to two survivors not on gens. At the cost of losing a potential hook.
Do you slug or hook? Do you rescue a slugged survivor or stay safe? Can you make a last minute clutch play by getting yourself up at the right time and turning around a lost game?
Is this sort of dynamic, on the spot decision making that is being taken away. There will be no more last minute turn arounds, where everyone is on the ground, but one survivor has Unbreakable or an equivalent perk, and turns a 4K into a 2K.
And by taking away a core method of applying pressure, that was in no way toxic specifically because it allowed for rescue plays from survivors, you are reducing killers to tunnel bots. Every valid avenue of pressure you remove form the killers toolkit simply pushes them towards employing more and more cheap, sweaty, more efficient tactics.
Boons deleted hit and run, basekit Unbreakable is deleting slugging, there's only camping and tunnelling left.
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@Wezil said:
I absolutely think it's a good idea. Slugging is just not fun for anyone in the game and this change will still allow for pressure with downing survivors but also removes the horrible 4 minute/4 man slugging that's certain toxic killers have been doing since game inception. Killers can do just fine without slugging and tunneling after 6.1, which is giving a 61% kill rate to killers, but they are refusing to adapt and are continuing to do these tactics that make the game completely unfun.
The developers are trying to remove these tactics that are driving players from this game, which is a good thing. I am actually surprised anyone is finding this to be a bad change.
I'm surprised anyone is finding this to be a good change.
It's removing a load of play around the dying state, stripping gameplay options from killers and survivors, and will only lead to more camping and tunnelling. For what? To mitigate an incredibly niche "bleeding everyone out at 5 gens" scenario. Or at least it was niche before they made this announcement.
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Distressing is perfectly fine, it's great with literally any Terror Radius effect.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3206958#Comment_3206958
Well survivors right now are mainly begging for buffs against camping and tunneling. So that's exactly what needs to happen in the game. And those surely wouldn't make killers tunnel and camp more. I mean, what buffs have survivors received in the recent past that would further increase tunneling and camping?
Killers already received a bunch of buffs in the last midchapter update, survivors now need more help against camping and tunneling, clearly.
Sure. So the priority should be measures against camping and tunnelling right?
Not basekit Unbreakable which will only lead to more camping and tunnelling. And yet all the survivor mains are rejoicing at their new basekit meta perk like it's some new secret weapon in their eternal crusade against killer mains.
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Bye bye Ghost Face and Mirror Myers. You won't work without indoor maps.
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@Rovend said:
61% kill rate
@legacycolt said:
This game has a 61% kill rate, there’s a reason survivors are constantly getting the 100% bloodpoints - because everyone plays killer now that they got a lot of buffs.
The game is killer sided atm.
B-b-but 61% kill rate!
Read this topic:
@adsads123123123123 said:
Kill rates aren't as useful or accurate as win rates. Killers typically interpret 0-1 kills as a loss, 2 kills as a draw, and 3-4 kills as a win. Kill rates can be misleading. For example, say the results for 3 matches were:
1k
1k
4k
This would result in a 50% kill rate but only a 33% win rate. If only kill rate was shown, it would make a certain killer seem balanced when in reality that killer was losing most matches. The kill rate will likely be higher than the win rate because when a killer wins, it's typically a 4k rather than a 3k. A 3k usually only occurs through hatch escapes or when the exit gates are too far apart to patrol. This theory is supported by data from NightLight (https://nightlight.gg/killers). It can be seen that on most killers the 4k rate is almost double that of 3k whereas 0k and 1 are about the same. This would result in a higher kill rate than win rate.
Additionally, I think that mmr should be based on wins rather than whether a specific survivor is killed or not because DBD is a game based on objectives. A survivor that dies could contribute more than one that survived. Awarding mmr for surviving is like awarding mmr for kda rather doing the objective.
Finally, games where any player disconnects should be excluded. If the killer disconnects, it's 4 escapes for survivors. If a survivor disconnects, it's usually a free 4k for the killer. These games aren't representative of a normal game.
There's a reason why a higher than 50% kill rate is actually balanced.
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@Rulebreaker said:
On the one hand:
- Slugging for the 4k and unnecessary slugging will be gone
- BHVR is showing a willingness to change base things on both sides that doesn't involve perks
- We get unobstructed moris
- Tenacity somehow got effectively buffed
On the other hand:
- Alot of snowball killers are going to be getting quick matches (for better or worse)
- SWF bully squads just got alot more power to them
- Giving hatch is now alot harder
- Exciting last minute plays will be gone
- Certain perks getting nerfed (Rancor and Devour are sore ones personally)
Basically baskit unbreakable will make the matches more tolerable for survivors, especially when the killer wants to be a prick and 4 man slug at the start. However, as above, bully squads are gona be having a blast if everything shown goes live. Overall, while I like the idea, I dont think they thoroughly thought it through. I really hope they change some details before everything hits the fan.
"On the one hand:
- Slugging for the 4k and unnecessary slugging will be gone"
How are you all missing the point here?
Slugging for the 4K will be META, it will happen even more.
- It will be the only way to secure a finisher Mori, especially when bringing an Ebony Mori offering.
- It will enable the killer to bypass multiple hook stages, as much as 6, if they tunnel out 2 survivors then slug the remaining 2.
- Tons of killers will still want their 4K and 45s slug windows won't stop them.
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@malloymk said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207632#Comment_3207632
I don't care. I've played maybe 30 games (being generous) since 6.1. I still think it's a good change. Again, why do killers need extend game length for a 4k? A 3k is a win. They need to really really win. That's on them.
Oh I agree, I play for a 3K, I let someone get the hatch most games.
But this new system gives even more reason to go for the 4K, which is why it's terrible.
Like I said, you're not paying attention.
"I think survivors should win, which is why I think the "buff killers" change is good!"
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@smartemarte said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207840#Comment_3207840
ahhh so in a team game ignore the team and just hope to get the hatch at the end, gotcha, perfectly designed game :D
All I'm saying is it's not hard to do if you want to do it.
Challenges typically require you to go into a match with the specific goal of completing said challenge, which comes with bringing perks to help with that challenge, playing in a way that secures you that objective, etc.
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For the first time, I honestly don't think there's any significant gaps left to fill.
Dredge and Wesker pretty much tick my final two boxes for missing power paradigms with 'teleporting between lockers' and 'multiple rapid dashes forward'.
At a stretch... I would like to see Twins gimmick done a bit differently. Namely have a killer that is in three places, but you only control one of them at a time. This essentially creates a teleporting killer with repositionable 'portals'. Something like three statues (think Weeping Angels or the Hecate, the three Fates) and you transfer between them one at a time.
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Nah just bring Sole Survivor and start to play cautiously when you're down to 2 survivors.
Pretty sure "hit 2 survivors with the same Corrupt Purge twice" is far harder than that.
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@Meg_Survivor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207790#Comment_3207790
well like i said, they just need to take matchmaking ban off and it wouldnt be a problem for players. Dont be a a**hole thank you .
Then everyone would DC the moment they start to lose the game.
Survivors will DC when they get hooked, you'll get a DC every single game.
This is demonstrated by the fact that this is exactly what happens every time they turn the DC penalty off.
I'd like to play a full game every now and then thanks, not just the first half.
Like I said, you just need to sort out your internet connection, so that you're not disrupting other players gameplay because of your insufficient set up. Don't be an ######### thank you.
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"There needs to be a difference between knowing when someone disconnects the game or just lags out."
There isn't. If there was, players would just disconnect by unplugging/resetting their router to get around it.
If your connection is that bad, unfortunately that's a problem you need to rectify. You're not just lagging out of the game, you're disrupting the game for four other people, whether it's intentional or not.
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@SuzuKR said:
@Seraphor Eg, a way to deal with killer bleeding people to death intentionally or unintentionally could be a 1 minute timer that starts when the last survivor goes down. As long as all survivors in the trial are hooked or downed, the timer ticks.
If the timer runs out, everyone is sacrificed Endgame Collapse-style. I feel like 1 minute would give sufficient time for people to get back up if they have a way to do so, or try Deliverance/praying for 4%/etc.
If no one has gotten up after 1 minute of everyone being downed or hooked, it’s pretty safe to assume the game is over anyways and that the killer either can’t find the others or is intentionally bleeding them out anyways.
And this would also help solve situations where a killer is forced to bleed a survivor purely because no hooks are close enough.
Yep.
Another similar option could be that the more survivors are downed, the faster the bleedout timer ticks. When all four are downed it's equivalent to 1 minutes instead of 4 minutes.
Combine this with something like everyone gets a free Unbreakable when their bleedout timer reaches 25% or something. That's 1 free pick up per game.
All more appealing than forced, unavoidable Mori cutscenes prematurely ending the game.
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The big question here is as always "what do you consider toxic"?
There are loads of scenarios in which the killer is merely playing the most efficient way, and the survivors interpret it as "toxic" because it's negative for them.
Several people have already mentioned that camping the hatch is a surefire way to flush out the last survivor, as is returning to the hook periodically to try and catch a survivor going for a rescue, and slugging applies pressure without actually hooking a survivor, which means it's more beneficial to survivors than getting hooked.
You can throw around pejoratives all day, either side can, but what it ultimately boils down to is inferring intention when there is none, and a lack of ability to accept a loss, or when you're outplayed. It's so easy for survivors to say "the killer was bad"... even though they won?
I've had games before that I thought were genuinely fun, and not in a sadistic, malicious way. I've had survivors picking up pallets in front of me with Any Means Necessary, or otherwise making really dumb plays, so I assume they're goofing around. I ease up a bit, or a play with them a bit, let them do a few things like stun me with pallets before I smack them down and hook them. One time this happened, I ended up with a load of messages on PSN berating me for harassing them and tunnelling them when they were just trying to do their Any means Necessary challenge. She even went as far as to say I ruined her already awful day because of something personal and that she was at her last straw and just wanted a nice game, etc. etc.
So what am I supposed to do? When even when I play nice I'm ruining someone's day?
You all just need to chill out, accept that this is a game, and learn how to cope with getting your ass handed to you in an asymmetrical game against literal horror movie serial killers.
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@CaulDrohn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207546#Comment_3207546
Impossible to get 1k, 2k or 3k mori?
1k - Beat the last survivor in the hatch race or interrupt them at the gate, BAM finisher mori.
2k - Find the last two, slug one and down the other fast, BAM finisher mori. Or hook one and find & down the last one, BAM finisher mori as well.
3k - Have one already dead, two hooked, find and down the last, BAM finish mori.
Finisher mori is not restricted to end game, you know?
"1k - Beat the last survivor in the hatch race ..."
...that's a 4K, and it relies on the gamble of beating them to the hatch. If you want the Mori, you need to slug.
"2k - Find the last two, slug one and down the other fast, BAM finisher mori. Or hook one and find & down the last one, BAM finisher mori as well."
That's a 4K... and exactly what I'm talking about.
"3k - Have one already dead, two hooked, find and down the last, BAM finish mori."
Also a 4K, and once again comes at the risk of the hooked survivors killing themselves to get the hatch for the last survivor.
You've just given several examples of the exact scenario I'm talking about. That doesn't mean it's going to be any easier or common, all of them require doing exactly what survivors hate, tunnelling and slugging.
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@malloymk said:
I think it's a great idea. Slugging for the 4k is completely unnecessary and boring. This forces killers to just hook the second to last player and then go find the last remaining survivor. If you killers were doing that in the first place, this wouldn't even be a thing. But here we are.
Someone's not paying attention:
@Seraphor said:
Climb down from your towers of glee for one moment survivor mains and consider the reality of these changes.
Basekit Unbreakable is not being implemented to "prevent slugging for the 4K", it is being proposed purely because the new Mori changes for the Last Standing mechanic would be broken without it.
It in fact only promotes slugging for the 4K, because of the Mori changes.
Killers are now encouraged to activate the Last Standing Mori, either as a way to end the game easily, or to secure their BP bonus from using offerings.
The result of this is that the most efficient and likely only way to secure the Mori is to:
- Tunnel out two survivors.
- Slug the remaining two survivors in relay until they manage to get them both on the ground at the same time.
You will still be unable to repair all the gens with just two survivors and one perpetually slugged.
You will be stuck on the ground for even longer, unless you give up and refuse to pick yourself up off the ground. Because every time you get up you're pausing your bleedout timer, and the killer knows exactly where you are because they downed you, and you recovered instead of crawling, so they come right back and smack you down again. You will be stuck in this whack-a-mole game for much longer than 4 minutes.
Mori offerings will now be even more toxic, because if you see a killer has one, you know they're going to slug for the 4K. So whenever survivors load into a game with a hidden fifth offering, you know they're just going to DC or let themselves die right away.
The finisher Mori is now even more desirable, which requires killers to secure a 4K, so you can't risk the final survivor getting the hatch.
Slugging is still entirely possible, 45s is a fairly long time in DBD.
You will see even more "slugging for the 4K" which is the 'toxic' form of slugging. but you will see less general slugging throughout the early-middle of the game, which is where it's actually a valid mechanic and allows survivors to go to each others aid and prevent unnecessary hooks.
As always, shortsighted survivor mains cackling in glee at an upcoming buff, cannot see that anything that makes the killers objective harder will simply funnel them into more camping and tunnelling. We're all playing an arms race that's progressively leading to a much more toxic game.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
I guess they are reworking the Moris to make it able to actually see the animations. Because currently, you almost never see a Mori-Animation, because current Moris are not that strong (which is completely justified, before they were just way too strong). I mean, personally, I dont care about the animation, but BHVR seems to be quite fond of them, so they wanted to implement a system to see the animations more frequently.
Before you saw them very frequently, but Moris were busted, so it is not like they were really enjoyable to see on the Survivor Side when you are dead after your first hook. And after they required two Hooks, they were used far less.
Now you will basically only see a Mori when the killer gets a 4K, as any other scenario will likely result in survivors waiting at exit gates until they're either all out or the remaining survivor is hooked. On top of that, you won't see Mori's from Devour Hope, Rancor, or mid-game via an Ebony Mori offering.
And in order to secure that Mori, the killer will still need to slug for the 4K to prevent the final survivor getting the hatch.
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@Bot_Salvo88 said:
I don't know you but from my experience, every time a killer brought a Mori it wasn't nice. What happened was that the killer, in order to get the Mori, would tunnel every survivor one by one.
It's not really fun to be tunneled all match. If the killer also use a Mori on you it just makes you quit the game and call it a day.
The proposed new system wouldn't change that. If the killer wants to Mori, they will need to tunnel out 2 survivors, then slug the remaining 2 until they get them both on the ground at the same time.
And killers will be incentivised to Mori due to; the BP bonus from the offerings that require them, the ability to bypass hook states, or just the desire to secure a 4K.
So from when this goes live, every time you see a Mori offering, you know that you're either getting tunnelled or slugged. Before it might have been likely, now it will be certain.
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@MrT1412 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3206622#Comment_3206622
I still don't really understand how the mori change makes slugging any better. If you down every survivor you'd win in the live game, this doesn't change that.
Except you wouldn't necessarily win that. If a survivor has any perk that allows them to pick themselves up, or a hooked survivor has Deliverance, or a survivor on the floor still has DS, or they just flat out Kobe, etc. then the survivors have an opportunity to make a comeback even after all four have been downed/hooked. That does happen, quite a bit, but it will no longer be the case if this mori system goes live.
Now slugging all survivors at once comes with the bonus of instantly ending the game no matter the circumstances, which while riskier, provides a much bigger payoff, you can bypass multiple hook states, and is likely the only way to secure a Mori finisher which will be required for Mori offerings, challenges or simply the desire for a 4K.
Plus, if a killer merely decides to prevent survivors from picking themselves up, all they have to do is not slug at all. Now survivors won't get an opportunity to use their basekit Unbreakable, or their Soul Guard, No Mither, Boon: Exponential, or to rescue downed survivors, etc. So in exchange for basekit Unbreakable, you lose every opportunity to actually use it.
It's like back when there was only an Obsession if someone brought DS, telegraphing to the killer that they had DS, so they knew to slug them. Now everyone has Unbreakable, the killer can just not slug at all. At least until they've tunnelled out two of the survivors and can easily slug the remaining two.
A much healthier alternative would be a feature where one survivor gets a free Unbreakable when all survivors are downed. This adds a final chance in a 'everyone slugged' scenario to make that comeback, and guarantees that the killer can't get a 4K simply by slugging everyone and bypassing hook states.
This would be a legitimate anti-slugging mechanic, instead of what we're getting, which is merely an encouragement to slug for the 4K with a handicap.
E.g.
Last Standing: When no survivors are 'standing' (not in the hooked or dying state), the Last Standing mechanic activates, with an audible indicator for all players. A survivor who has fully recovered can pick themselves up without the use of any perks. The Last Standing effect is disabled when a survivor becomes 'standing' again.
If there is only one survivor in the Dying state when the Last Standing phase activates (only one survivor left in the trial or the others are on hooks) the killer will have the option to Kill that survivor by their own hand without the use of perks.
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You use your power to temporarily turn survivors to stone. They can't be damaged during this time, and it requires another survivor to come to their rescue to break them out.
The return of slugging!
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@Mat_Sella said:
everyone complaining about the new moris...
its been MONTHS since ive been mori'd. Literally no one uses them, its basically useless and serves no purpose.
The new mori WILL serve a purpose and will help end matches faster instead of killers sitting and watching someone bleed out for 4 minutes because hooks are down or someone is feeling petty.
Mori's need a new system that makes then seen more often, without a doubt. But this system is nuts. It removes Mori opportunities, and you will only see Mori's what killers play sweaty and slug for the 4K.
This would be a far better solution:
@Seraphor said:
I've made several comments about how I think these proposed changes are godawful, but simply complaining doesn't get you anywhere, so I thought of an alternative or middle ground I'd be happy with.
Last Standing: When one survivor remains in the trial, you have the ability to Kill them by your own hand. Essentially a basekit Cypress Mori offering. The same changes to the Mori offerings go through, where the offerings simply award you BP scores if you kill the last survivor, and even Rancor. Devour Hope's 5 stack effect now enables you to kill one survivor by your own hand.
This is overall more of a nerf to killers, but it still reduces the toxicity of Mori's, and it doesn't remove player agency from killers and doesn't come with a system that requires basekit Unbreakable to function.
Basekit Unbreakable: When all survivors in the trial are downed or hooked, survivors in the dying state have the ability to pick themselves up. Once one survivor has picked themselves up from the dying state, the effect is disabled for the other survivors.
This allows one survivor to get up at a time, and potentially recover from an otherwise hopeless slugging situation. If that one survivor is downed again, then the effect activates again and one of the other survivors can get back up. This prohibits the "4 slugs at 5 gens" tactic, and if the killer attempts to slug for the 4K, then when he finds and downs the last survivor the one he slugged can get themselves back up again. This does everything that survivors are saying this new system fixes, without making general slugging through the natural course of the game a prohibitive tactic, and isn't so extreme as to require the rework of all perks that interact with the dying state. It still allows slugging to be employed as a method of applying pressure, with a safeguard to protect against obnoxious use of it.
To make it a bit clearer how this would work:
Last Standing: When no survivors are 'standing' (not in the hooked or dying state), the Last Standing mechanic activates, with an audible indicator for all players. A survivor who has fully recovered can pick themselves up without the use of any perks. The Last Standing effect is disabled when a survivor becomes 'standing' again.
If there is only one survivor in the Dying state when the Last Standing phase activates (only one survivor left in the trial or the others are on hooks) the killer will have the option to Kill that survivor by their own hand without the use of perks.
It has the same net result when it comes to seeing Mori's, without the need to delete Mori's from perks, or delete the dying state.
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@jajay119 said:
It's not about slugging for Moris. It's about slugging constantly at 5/4 gens, or slugging the third player so you can run off and find the 4th.
And this form of basekit Unbreakable to fix that issue is like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
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@CaulDrohn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207532#Comment_3207532
Where does it tell that?
You have to make 1k, 2k or 4k, and the last survivor needs to be killed by the mori animation. You don't have to kill all four through the finishing mori.
Except survivors always remain in the game, at the exit gate, until their team mates are downed. So it's going to be virtually impossible to get a 1K, 2K or 3K finisher mori. It'll only happen with a 4K.
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@schmebulock said:
This. Slugging is the problem, not moris!
I don't understand the thought that Mori = toxic killer. I personally find the game more fun when a killer is mori-ing survivors instead of using the hooks.
I think a far more reasonable fix for slugging is built-in Unbreakable, where if all 4 people are downed, whoever recovers first can get back up.
'Slugging' isn't a problem, it's a core mechanic of the game.
Slugging is what gives survivors the opportunity to rescue their team mates before they get hooked, it's what allows the use of perks such as Unbreakable, Soul Guard, No Mither, Flip Flop, Tenacity, Boon: Exponential, Boil Over, Power Struggle, plus recovery perks like We'll Make It or Botany Knowledge to get your team mates up quicker.
Slugging is a way for the killer to apply pressure that isn't as drastic or final as hooking, it gets survivors off gens and forces them to interact with their team mates.
It's an entire mechanic, just like hooks, or pallets, or the injured state, etc. It's a major facet of the game. It is the sole reason we have 'the dying state'.
The problem is specifically "slugging everyone at 5 gens" or "slugging for the 4K". Slugging is only a problem when it's done specifically to drag the game out or make survivors wait 4 minutes on purpose. Just as 'camping' is only a problem when it's done to force through a hook state before end game and is entirely acceptable during EGC or when other survivors force it on the killer by looping the hook or something.
One specific, niche method of abusing slugging in the problem, and there is a fix for that which doesn't completely delete an entire core mechanic of the game:
@Seraphor said:
I've made several comments about how I think these proposed changes are godawful, but simply complaining doesn't get you anywhere, so I thought of an alternative or middle ground I'd be happy with.
Last Standing: When one survivor remains in the trial, you have the ability to Kill them by your own hand. Essentially a basekit Cypress Mori offering. The same changes to the Mori offerings go through, where the offerings simply award you BP scores if you kill the last survivor, and even Rancor. Devour Hope's 5 stack effect now enables you to kill one survivor by your own hand.
This is overall more of a nerf to killers, but it still reduces the toxicity of Mori's, and it doesn't remove player agency from killers and doesn't come with a system that requires basekit Unbreakable to function.
Basekit Unbreakable: When all survivors in the trial are downed or hooked, survivors in the dying state have the ability to pick themselves up. Once one survivor has picked themselves up from the dying state, the effect is disabled for the other survivors.
This allows one survivor to get up at a time, and potentially recover from an otherwise hopeless slugging situation. If that one survivor is downed again, then the effect activates again and one of the other survivors can get back up. This prohibits the "4 slugs at 5 gens" tactic, and if the killer attempts to slug for the 4K, then when he finds and downs the last survivor the one he slugged can get themselves back up again. This does everything that survivors are saying this new system fixes, without making general slugging through the natural course of the game a prohibitive tactic, and isn't so extreme as to require the rework of all perks that interact with the dying state. It still allows slugging to be employed as a method of applying pressure, with a safeguard to protect against obnoxious use of it.
To make it a bit clearer how this would work:
Last Standing: When no survivors are 'standing' (not in the hooked or dying state), the Last Standing mechanic activates, with an audible indicator for all players. A survivor who has fully recovered can pick themselves up without the use of any perks. The Last Standing effect is disabled when a survivor becomes 'standing' again.
If there is only one survivor in the Dying state when the Last Standing phase activates (only one survivor left in the trial or the others are on hooks) the killer will have the option to Kill that survivor by their own hand without the use of perks.
Edit: which I now realise is what you've suggested as well. Basically the opposite of the proposed changes. With Unbreakable only being available when all survivors are downed, or none are standing'.
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Basekit Unbreakable isn't the main problem, it's the Mori changes that require it that remove countless gameplay options.
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The real reason is that killers are also players and they also want to win.
Every buff survivors beg for and receive, every avenue of applying pressure that is removed from killlers, everything that makes the killers objective more difficult, merely drives them to employing cheaper, sweatier, more efficient strategies.
Every advantage survivors rejoice about, leads to more camping and more tunneling.
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@mischiefmanaged said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3206852#Comment_3206852
This is... sadly... probably correct.
I guess for me I just never really slug for the 4k without a clear goal in front of me, but obviously there are other killers who do that and would just switch to this strategy.
I guess then I just don't really understand the point of the basekit unbreakable if it doesn't really solve anything.
Basekit Unbreakable is purely to make it harder for killers to slug all four survivors at once.
Sadly it won't have much impact on two survivors.
It wouldn't be necessary if they just implemented a less radical Mori system.
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@apathyinc said:
Slugging as a tactic should have a disadvantage, it currently does not and that doesn't flow with how the entity wants people to play. The game's manual and tutorial enforce the "hit, carry, hook" technique to please the entity. Also, bleeding people out is just lame gameplay.
Of course slugging has a disadvantage, the myriad ways survivors can already recover from the dying state.
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@mischiefmanaged said:
I agree with almost all of your points. If I don't mention a specific number, just assume I agree with it.
For 1 and 2, I actually think this might be the main thing this change does well. Maybe there's differing opinions on this, but I think "slugging for the 4k" really is only a problem when you don't know where the last survivor is so you try to use the third survivor to either bait the fourth out of hiding or you use it as a way to give yourself more time to find the last one. For the slugged survivor, this is a PITA to wait 4 minutes. If a killer tries to do that with this change, they get punished pretty harshly at 45 seconds and are more encouraged to hook the survivor immediately if they don't know where the fourth survivor is. If they know where the last survivor is (you were grouped up and the third went down right next to the fourth), I think it's pretty reasonable to try and down the fourth and get the 4k. At the same time, I've had times when I did this and the fourth survivor ran me for much longer than I thought they would so the slugged survivor stayed on the ground for a long time. I would have gotten punished for doing that.
I think this is the exact scenario this change does well.
For 6, very much agree it kills Rancor as a perk. Just generally no reason to run it. I think it was a badly designed perk to begin with, but it was a fun one. There's really no reason you should just get an instant kill when the generators pop but removing that part of the perk makes the perk practically useless.
For 7, you rarely got to see the moris from Devour to begin with. Most people would let their teammates die on hook before giving a 5th stack. If you got one kill from Devour before they broke the totem, you basically guaranteed yourself a win. I'll miss the extra personality with it but I think Devour will stay at a relatively similar power level. It'll also get some synergy with hook perks that it didn't have before.
Everything you said about the new Unbreakable is just crazy. Unbreakable being at 100% recovery is just insane. It would still probably be strong at the same 35% it was before. I think Unbreakable at 100% could be fine though if the enhanced recovery speed had a deactivation condition. Something like, "Unbreakable deactivates if you pick yourself up." If your teammate picks you up, then you keep the enhanced recovery speed. If you pick yourself up, you lose the enhanced recovery speed or the enhanced recovery speed decreases like Built to Last.
"Maybe there's differing opinions on this, but I think "slugging for the 4k" really is only a problem when you don't know where the last survivor is so you try to use the third survivor to either bait the fourth out of hiding or you use it as a way to give yourself more time to find the last one. For the slugged survivor, this is a PITA to wait 4 minutes. If a killer tries to do that with this change, they get punished pretty harshly at 45 seconds and are more encouraged to hook the survivor immediately if they don't know where the fourth survivor is."
Thing is, you can just comb the map looking for the fourth survivor in roughly 45s phases, returning to the slug to whack them back down. You will eventually find and down that last survivor, and if the first slug still manages to get back up before you get that final down, you just repeat the process with the survivors in opposite roles.
You won't be able to repair any gens during this whack-a-mole process, so you're essentially held hostage, in a process that will likely take longer than the 4 minute bleedout timer.
This whack-a-mole game will be the only way to guarantee a finisher Mori, and the best way to guarantee a 4K after tunneling out the first two survivors, as you'll be bypassing 6 hook stages.
This will be the new meta strategy.
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@Lekitzul said:
I honestly do think slugging is a strategy, but the problem is that someone will literally slug everyone on first gen and just let us all bleed out without even trying for the hook. Like bruh . I also think if you try to save stupidly then you should be able to be downed. But I think if say, the 3rd or 4th person is slugged, two of those people should be allowed to get up or something.
"someone will literally slug everyone on first gen and just let us all bleed out without even trying for the hook"
When? When are people doing this?
In all my time playing survivor I've had this happen exactly ONCE by a Nurse.
Killers want to end the game as much as you do. Who the hell wants to hang around doing nothing for 4 minutes?
Slugging is used for a hell of a lot of reasons in a ton of different, valid scenarios, and the only thing anyone is talking about is this "bleeding everyone put at 5 gens" nightmare scenario.
It's the definition of confirmation bias. You can't stop thinking about that one time you had to wait 4 minutes, and conveniently forget the hundreds of times you've been on the ground in various other contexts, because they didn't have such a detrimental effect on you.
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@Lastchild said:
The only way to balance Solo Qs with SWFs is to nerf the SWFs.
And the only way to nerf SWFs is to simply reduce their knowledge of the maps that's their strength.
This means increasing the elements included in the procedural generation of maps.
Because if there are 30 different versions of a card the SWFs will not have the current confidence.
The killer will be as lost as the survivors in the cards, it's the only possible balance.
Maps shouldn't be recognizable, they should constantly be a new adventure.
On the official website it is stated that the maps are procedurally generated.
The truth is that this generation lacks a lot of precision.
All the elements of a card must change places, direction, size.
Increasing RNG elements only strengthens the value of voice comms.
SWF can communicate any RNG changes, the new locations of certain landmarks, to their team mates, while solo survivors will each need to discover these RNG elements themselves.
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@tippy2k2 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3206405#Comment_3206405
That's fair but to me, the pros (being able to do something about killers who just want to bleed you out and waste four minutes of your life) outweigh the cons (the situation you put forth).
Everybody is going to feel differently but I can't control a killer who wants to be a jerk while I can control my own actions as a killer to determine if I want to let this person live or not. It does suck a little bit as, like you, I haven't always decided before I knock them down (also one of my "Hatch" things is what I call The Lottery, which is if I take someone down but we run into the Hatch while I am carrying them to the Hook, I see that as Entity Intervention and will let them go. Something I can no longer do since there's no carrying the survivors anymore) but now I just need to keep in mind that I need to make that decision before I put them down rather than after.
"the pros (being able to do something about killers who just want to bleed you out and waste four minutes of your life) outweigh the cons (the situation you put forth)."
Really?
How often does that even happen? Most killers want to get to the next game as much as you do.
Is it worth gutting entire facets of the game, removing a ton of player agency, and removing valid avenues of applying pressure which will only force killers into employing cheaper tactics even more often, just to avoid a niche situation like that?
Is there maybe some other method of avoiding that niche situation that doesn't involve gutting the game?
@Seraphor said:
I've made several comments about how I think these proposed changes are godawful, but simply complaining doesn't get you anywhere, so I thought of an alternative or middle ground I'd be happy with.
Last Standing: When one survivor remains in the trial, you have the ability to Kill them by your own hand. Essentially a basekit Cypress Mori offering. The same changes to the Mori offerings go through, where the offerings simply award you BP scores if you kill the last survivor, and even Rancor. Devour Hope's 5 stack effect now enables you to kill one survivor by your own hand.
This is overall more of a nerf to killers, but it still reduces the toxicity of Mori's, and it doesn't remove player agency from killers and doesn't come with a system that requires basekit Unbreakable to function.
Basekit Unbreakable: When all survivors in the trial are downed or hooked, survivors in the dying state have the ability to pick themselves up. Once one survivor has picked themselves up from the dying state, the effect is disabled for the other survivors.
This allows one survivor to get up at a time, and potentially recover from an otherwise hopeless slugging situation. If that one survivor is downed again, then the effect activates again and one of the other survivors can get back up. This prohibits the "4 slugs at 5 gens" tactic, and if the killer attempts to slug for the 4K, then when he finds and downs the last survivor the one he slugged can get themselves back up again. This does everything that survivors are saying this new system fixes, without making general slugging through the natural course of the game a prohibitive tactic, and isn't so extreme as to require the rework of all perks that interact with the dying state. It still allows slugging to be employed as a method of applying pressure, with a safeguard to protect against obnoxious use of it.
To make it a bit clearer how this would work:
Last Standing: When no survivors are 'standing' (not in the hooked or dying state), the Last Standing mechanic activates, with an audible indicator for all players. A survivor who has fully recovered can pick themselves up without the use of any perks. The Last Standing effect is disabled when a survivor becomes 'standing' again.
If there is only one survivor in the Dying state when the Last Standing phase activates (only one survivor left in the trial or the others are on hooks) the killer will have the option to Kill that survivor by their own hand without the use of perks.
Further more "just let them get the hatch before you down them" obscures the fact that you're letting them get the hatch.
When I down someone and carry them to the hatch, i often get a "thanks for hatch" afterwards. When I chase someone and herd them towards the hatch instead, I get a "succ it bicth you suk ur a bad killer"
I'd like to reduce the amount of toxicity in the game, not add to it.
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@tippy2k2 said:
You can let people go still
You just can't down them and carry them to the hatch anymore. There's still no reason why you can't just let them go find the hatch themselves or lead them to the hatch.
But you have to make that decision before you attempt to down them.
Often I give the hatch after I've downed someone far too easily and feel sorry for them.
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Its removing a ton of player agency, watering down the gameplay options, and overall forcing the game further towards the "hold M1" gen repair simulator.
It will result in more killers playing sweatier, in an attempt to slug for the 4K to either secure their Mori or bypass multiple hook states. Which means survivors will still be complaining.
Survivors are gleeful about anything that sounds like a buff to survivors, completely oblivious to the fact that any survivor buff actually results in sweatier killers, which means more miserable gameplay.
Ultimately this game has to be somewhat balanced, the game simply doesn't work if one side can't win roughly half the time. The problem is that survivors aren't satisfied with a 50% escape rate and killers aren't satisfied with a 50% kill rate, so no one is ever happy. You all need to learn how to lose.