Base kit Unbreakable will decimate the Killer population
If this change goes through (and given BHVR's track record it will) we will be back to 10+ min Survivor queues in no time. This change is incredibly misguided and really has the chance to tank this game.
Comments
Since when did every killer player slug regularly?
I don't see this change getting in my way at all. Unless survivor abuse it with unbreakable which i do think should be nerfed with it's announced change.
Swfs will abuse this to high hell.
22 second self pick up means all you have to do is be under a pallet when you are downed. If you do this, the killer will never get a hook because if they pick up, they get flashed or pallet stunned, if they don't pick up and chase the other person with the light, they also can't be picked up if they go down under a pallet.
Does every Killer pick you up immediately when you've been downed? Not me. They can remove Boons, break pallets, kick gens, chase off another Survivor who is trying to finish the gen right in front of them or one using a flashlight. Even if they leave me another Survivor has to come off a gen to get me up.
Precisely. Bullying the Killer will never have been easier. Toxic survivors are a significant reason I rarely play Killer and I don't think I'm the only one.
Why are long killer q's better than long surv q's?
Apart from SWF's who go down on a pallet, and Unbreakable probably being a bit too fast, this change is almost wholly good.
It's nice to see a bunch of killer-only players telling on themelves and their playstyles, though.
I probably have more hours in killer alone than many players on this forum have in the game, and apart from what I said above, this is a good thing.
10+ Minute queues are fine if it means the survivor can do some tbagging
Sabo plays? Boil over? Hook deadzones? Or are you a magical killer player who never encounters any of the above?
Everyone focusing on basekit Unbreakable and ignoring why it's necessary to go hand in hand with the Finishing Mori option. They won't release the latter without some way of countering the inevitable increase in slugging. IMO they should just scrap the whole thing but I'm willing to see how it all pans out.
If it one time then I'm good with base kit. I only slug when I feel like it.
Given the broken messes that BHVR have released in the past, on what are you basing your optimism?
Since DS nerf, I've seen far less slugging outside of the last 2 survivors remaining or if the entire team messes up and surrounds the downed survivor for a save.
I don't think the change itself will decimate killer population, but it does lead the possibility for survivor squads to force killers into lose-lose situations. Sabo is getting quite the buff with this change.
I think the discussion is so focused on unbreakable because no one really cares about the moris in retrospect, one way or the other.
Like it's not even in question: "Oh you can't have one without the other? By all means take everything back. Please. I'll help load the car."
That's just a given as we talk about the giant pink elephant standing out as patently absurd in line with everything we know about the games balance that currently exists, where the 1 time self-pick up is strong enough that its already a major favorite and a shitload of builds revolve around it.
Hell, to be perfectly honest, I don't want the mori finisher crap even if it were on its own. Not this type anyhow. And this all from someone who largely supports the last update simply for shaking things up so much, negative balance and playstyle impacts aside.
I suspect that most people objecting would actually agree with you that the whole damn update should just be trashed. None of this is good. None of this feels fresh and new. Any parts warranted in some respects from valid positions (like "hey no one likes being slugged for 4 minutes, okay, so what do we do?") are so ######### broken that them doing anything is so much worse than leaving all the problems as is and backing the hell away.
Sabo plays and hook deadzones? What..? There are almost always at least 2 hooks in hooking distance. Boil over? Lol.
A couple areas will need to be looked at/altered, but all the doom and gloom is really unwarranted.
The fact that you don't think a hook deadzone is a thing or sabo plays benefit from this speaks volumes. "Lol survivors playing smart and using perks intelligently? No dude!! They're all gonna swarm the pallet and you just get them to drop it and pick the guy up! EZ ez!!!"
Just for fun please describe what to do vs the new unbreakable + soul guard with another survivor saboing the hook after around 8 seconds of travel.
Ah, you’re one of those killer mains who thinks every match is a 4-man sweat squad on comms. Enough said.
I can see rise even more Nurse players that will be buffed since they can end game sooner and rise of camping Bubbas.
Nice dodge, So it's a lose/lose when facing sabo with the newly designed perks? To be clear I think 4 man slugging and slugging for hatch should 100% be deleted. But just like boil over and the endurance stacking meta on the PTB recently, this is way too strong of a solution.
If the number of killers is reduced, the incentive is gone. A good trend.
Let's all play Survivor.
No optimism. Just the idea that perhaps it'll be different in practice than in theory. I don't have high expectations either way. The game at this stage is simply slapping bandaid over bandaid.
Lmao how? Also, you realise that this game right now has a clear shortage of survivor players? This game needs improvements for survivors now, so no, I really don't think this will become a problem.
I am a killer main, and I surely won't be playing the game any less after this change goes live. In fact, I am really hoping for more nerfs to camping and tunneling in the 6.1.0 update, which are still too effective. I also want solo survivor buffs, though to be fair, these changes all together would also require some further improvements for killers as well, mainly map balance improvements, as some maps are still somewhat survivor sided.
I seriously doubt that Unbreakeable will make it to the live game with 100% increased recovery speed. The basekit 45 seconds unbreakeable will be very good for the game, but I also agree that the buffed Unbreakeable will be a huge problem. And I kind of doubt the devs won't notice that in the ptb.
Here we are. A post that makes sense.
Too many people saying the sky is falling, but in the vast majority of games for killers who play properly not much will change.
Yall acting like Sabo builds are popular, falling under a pallet is super common, etc. All of these things are very situational and will take the Killer getting the right hit in the right place with the right group of survivors. This just gives survivors a desperately needed tool in their survivor kit. Most Killer mains will learn to adjust their play styles accordingly. The same way survivors adjust play styles to each new Killer when they come out.
If this decimates the killer population then good, it is all the killers I hate playing against who want to sweaty 4 man slug with 4 minute bleedouts. Also decimate while colloquially refers to a massive number, actually only meant 1 in 10, as in decimal. The vast majority of Killers will be unaffected by basekit Unbreakable, and very few will be punished by the 45s self-pickup. They might get hit by a 22.5s perked self-pickup, but then learn to just pick up sooner and win their match regardless. Also having a pathetic 4 man Starstruck Nurse be forced to end the game sooner is chefs kiss. Those losers can't drag out the match with the 4 minute bleedouts and will be forced to take the W.
To add, I haven't seen confirmation yet that Unbreakable won't still retain its one time use.
Granted I’m relatively new so maybe I haven’t figured out the zen of killer yet but am I the only player that routinely hooks (or at least picks up) survivors within 20 seconds of downing them?
I could see the dying on pallet issue, but that’s kind of situational right?
So far as hook dead zones, I would imagine that’s one of the things that can be identified on the PTB.
I'd argue insta-blind, vacuum pallets, double pallets, stacking sb + balanced, insta heals, insta gens, old DH, etc. all made the killer substantially easier to bully than this change but
Oooh well,,time to learn to play sweaty nurse i guess,,,
Should perks like Coulrophobia, Thanatophobia and Dying light also reduces recovery speed ?
Should Knock out be buffed to 30/40/50 % ?
Should Mangled effect also applie to recovery speed ? (Sloppy Butcher, SH: Gift of Pain and some addons) ?
Have you been here back when sabo was permanent and sabo squads, even solo, were rampant? (A thing that made mass slugging popular in the first place)
Or remember the boil over rpd problem?
Or inaccessible spots in Haddon field or other maps? (Roof of the garden hut only accessible by dh of the porch roof for example)
Survivor and killer, or rather player in general will always resort to the most broken stuff they can.
Slugging it routinely used during the course of natural gameplay to apply pressure. You might remember more the cases where you've been slugged for the 4K or something, but how many cases are you forgetting where you've been left on the ground in the middle of the game where the killer has encountered two survivors at once and you've been rescued off the ground by a team mate or something? This happens all the time.
Slugging is a fundamental tool for applying pressure, when simply hooking the survivor might not be the best option, because it requires another survivor to intervene. Without any incentive for other survivors to come to your aid, slugging, and the dying state in general, is a dead feature. An entire facet of the game deleted just like that.
For example when a survivor in unhooked and you encounter them again, but you don't want to tunnel, so you hit them and slug them. This gives them a chance to carry on playing, but it applies pressure to the survivors because another survivor has to come and pick them up. That's one fewer survivors on gens and potentially provides you with an alternative target if you're nearby when it happens. This will no longer be possible. Now if you re-encounter an unhooked survivor, you have no choice but to tunnel them out of the game.
When the meta is camping, tunnelling and slugging for the 4K, it's general mid-game slugging and other such tactics like this that keep 'decent' killers in the game. With all of these tactics being removed, like how Boons deleted hit and run tactics, pretty soon camping and tunnelling will be the only way to win as killer. After all, it's much easier to slug 3 survivors at once within 45 seconds than it is to slug 4 survivors at once in 45 seconds.
Unfortunately it's those sweaty killers that will capitalise on this to try and end the game in an instant via the Mori. Also slugging for the 4K will be even more appealing, as you won't even need to hook them. If you're down to 2 survivors and you down one, all you need to do is down the other to instantly end the game. 4K slugging will become the new norm.
Also get used to killers who keep downing, but not hooking, the last two survivors in an attempt to get their Mori finish for the 20K BP bonus from their offering. It'll be like whack-a-mole, and drag out for ages until the survivors stop getting themselves up.
It's the decent killers who try to play the game naturally that this will hurt the most.
Alternatively, if the conditions were inverted, and when and only when all survivors are downed or hooked they gain the ability to pick themselves back up, 4K slugging would be a totally defunct tactic, while natural killer gameplay would remain unaffected.
This making impactful survivor meta perks base kit thing is terrible. It does two things to the game. It makes higher skill/MMR killer matches even more terrible on almost every killer, and it makes competent survivor players even stronger. Which is something they don't need. These types of changes hardly impact average skill level play the way they impact higher skill level play. Competent survivors in SWF already dominate the game vs almost every playable killer. With this UB change, they will have an even easier time doing it.
I don't actually see basekit unbreakable making killers leave, I see Hackers/Cheaters causing that. It will hurt to go against SWFs though.
uh oh, someone's never played killer before
I've got more playtime in killer alone than you probably do overall. Try again.
So many players on these forums with very little game experience talking like they know what they are talking about...
Maybe they will include a buff to killer which involves teleporting the survivor to the nearest hook once the pick up animation finishes similar to the Cage of Torment. That'd be the best way to counterbalance basekit unbreakable.
Make it perk and I am OK with it. Same way as survivors get anti-camp and anti-tunel perk instead of deleting these unfair tactics
Remember the old boilover fiasco?
Now imagine the swfs abusing the old broken boilover during that fiasco when they realize base kit unbreakable is a thing
Get ready to see huge maps/maps with huge dead zones and sabo squads with built to last and boilover again
Don't forget about badham and them going into the basement with the hooks being in killer shack
Heck nearly everyone had boilover during that shitshow some even had breakout as well
You got 4 and a half thousand hours on killer and have been playing since early release? man i'd love to see some proof to back that up.
"two hooks within hooking distance"
too many times I've played as nurse or huntress and had no hooks close enough to reach. I'm not running Agi + iron grasp every match cause I need other perks instead. Don't try and show up strangers on the internet, you just make yourself look like a clown. The fact of the matter is this: all players have different experiences, most share experiences. the most shared experience is that there are multiple hook deadzones that survivors constantly exploit, especially if someone's dead and there was only one hook in that corner or if you're on midwich and a hook spawns downstairs in the hallway but not upstairs. "I've got more playtime in killer alone than you do overall" you're not all mighty and powerful, kid, lets calm down x3
No more bandaid perks.
Sure. Same way as everyone is abusing no mither which picks you way sooner then 45s. Oh wait....
Oh I play saboteur 95% of my matches. I know all the hook spawns better then most killers. Believe me. If there wasn't some kind of survivor's play before (breakdown, mass sabo hook, 2 dead players on same part of map) then you are guaranteed (not counting midwitch) that you will have a hook to use.
But for single midwitch - you have several maps where sabotaging hook does nothing. If you do perfect sabo play (suvivor fell in the middle of 3 hooks so everyone is same distance, killer picks hook you are going to sabotage, you sabotage it to his face, you take hit for carried survivor) and you are on the game or in saloon, then tough luck. The rescue does not happen. And it doesn't matter where this happened, killer will be able to hook. Most of the maps have just zones where sabo is not possible. The game and saloon don't have sabo-possible spot anywhere.
Ahem badham basement with the basement hooks being in killer shack
I know this spot will be abused again like how it was during the boilover fiasco
No. No problem there. if front of main is guaranteed hook, top side has guaranteed hook, behind of main has guaranteed hook, bottom part has usually (but not guaranteed) hook spawn. All you need to do in case of worst possible place of survivor - break those doors. Most killers make it even if they come to doors, drop survivor, break them, then pick up and then hook (even if this gives opportunity to bodyblock - break them ahead of time and you have 0 risk).
If you're against a sabo squad with 2-3 petrified oaks you're not getting that hook off especially if two of them run breakout as the survivor will break free and run back down to the basement
Again I saw this spot almost abused as much as rpd library
Not quite more hours just on killer, but not too far off.
Are you doing a little dance for a few seconds after you pick up the survivor before you look for the hook? Not being able to reach even a single hook is a very rare occurance. Having 2 or 3 within your reach is the norm. 4-5 if you use the perks mentioned.
Currently the game map is the only map with any real hook spawn issues.
Every sabo play has inherent risk of getting smacked hard. it's heavy risk reward same as flashlight play. You can get that hook or you can trade survivor. Or you have entire team standing there and nobody is doing gens - so you can chase everyone else - now injured (or dying if you played better), because they have to risk it to rescue carried person. Breakout has measly 5m distance. Considering lounge distance - you can hit them every time if you play around it.
Also having entire team hoping the map will be springwood and basement in shack and killer getting downs in basement and killer not having iron grasp, agi, hangman's, starstruck, mad grit and killer being regular slow M1 kiler without any projectiles (so no nurse, blight, spirit, huntress, piramidhead, pinhead, plague, ...) is quite a huge gamble. Now compare this to taking bubba with IG+agi and facecamp basement (or starstruck range addon nurse for that matter) and let's talk about what is and what isn't fair...
"Currently the game map is the only map with any real hook spawn issues."
That's a ridiculous statement.
Not only is Midwich on par with The Game, if not worse when it comes to reaching a hook, indoor maps are also usually worse than outdoor maps. I've had similar issues on Lerys and RPD, where I've been unable to reach a hook due to walls blocking a direct route.
With the shoe on the other foot, I've also made myself unhookable in Lerys before, by going down behind the desk in the central 'office' area with Boil Over, Flip Flop and Tenacity. Right in the middle of the map, the killer was completely unable to hook me.
(now that was a bit of a meme perk build, because my fourth perk was of course Unbreakable, but without needing to run Unbreakable now, that frees up a perk slot and makes my "can't hook me" build actually viable as a serious load out)
Additionally many 'open' maps such as the core maps like Coldwind, Autohaven, MacMillan etc. have corners that becomes deadzones if just one hook is consumed.
So no, hook spawn issues are present on virtually every map, and just as survivors can be screwed by the twin hooks on Coldwind, killers can only be screwed as well.
It's impossible to find yourself in the game where at least 2 hooks are not within your reach (bad RNG and you are in a corner downstairs). Usually you can get to 5-7 hooks. Every "room" has at least 1 hook (sometimes 2) and the middle part can be considered 4 rooms (but they are shared with bottom so there is little bit lower density of hooks here - still there are plenty of hooks).
Also flip-flop + tenacity do nothing if you are immediately picked up. Boil over practically only hides closest hook (so if killer is observant, the perk does nothing) with the small exception to doors (yes lery's is ideal for this) as they can prolong carrying when killer can't get quickly thru the doors - and yet this can be combated again if killer gets the rhythm of boil over to actually move quicker...