Carth
Carth
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Yeah man you caught it entirely, if a judgment stops a swf from winning a 500 game streak it's kinda broken. Nevermind if a trapper or ghostface can't get off the ground vs players with any kind of game sense. A SWF with any kind of skillset should just have infinite wins really.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119048#Comment_4119048
You can't complain about survivors getting power crept by new killers but not also acknowledge that older killers get power crept by new survivor perks.
Perks are optional, and many of the perks being nerfed are old. M1 killers are as old as SB and WoO. But I don't see how the solution is to nerf strong perks like StB and a whole bunch of other perks, while buffing a bunch of perks that help M1s so that now survivors just get thrashed by even the lowest tier killers. There's nothing being done to make survivor better right now, just worse. They could have buffed those killer perks without nuking survivor.
I don't know how to address that though without basically turning every new killer into "dash slop but green instead of blue".
Tbf we haven't had a dash killer in a second, but we have had strong killers with overstuffed kits. Jason has power crept half the roster while having zero identity of his own. He's just a bunch of killers rolled into one. The Judgment issues are kinda easier. Perks that activate upon being hooked need to be changed to hook states if they're going to do something like this. They also need to have a small window for flashlight saves, like in 2v8. Getting the beam curve time is a different matter, but a killer that turns off a masive chunk of the survivior existence is just bad design.
To your first point I agree, they didnt' have to nuke the perks just like in 6.1.0 they didn't need to nerf perks. BHVR typically balances solely based on useage so anything at the top is suspect to getting nerfed (before you come for me, yes killer popular perks should be nerfed too if they're torching survivor popular perks). And yes I agree we haven't had a dash slop killer in awhile but that's exactly the issue. Unless its a dash killer BHVR will pretty regularly either under hit the mark(singu pre-emp nerfs, houndmaster, alien, springtrap) or extremely over-build killers(First, Judgement, Jason, Ghoul). The dash killers they can kind of get correct, but anything else is either trash or broken strong, and being real "broken strong" sells more than "its a weak M1 meh killer that gets trounced"
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119043#Comment_4119043
Oh, but I said basekit by default. Judgment gets her benefits that avoid all these regular aspects of the game for free. She doesn't need a perk to do it. The perk slots are for cheesing with aura. But you almost see the point. It's like all these things existing would be unfair to the other side.
Basekit BT was added because a perk was filling in a hole to make the game playable. Same reason infinites were removed. How on earth is this example still being cited in 2026?
also though, at the same time, when did trapper, ghostface, etc. get buffs when shoulder got released? You can't complain about survivors getting power crept by new killers but not also acknowledge that older killers get power crept by new survivor perks. It's absolutely a cycle on both sides so neither gets a "slam dunk" of I win.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119043#Comment_4119043
Oh, but I said basekit by default. Judgment gets her benefits that avoid all these regular aspects of the game for free. She doesn't need a perk to do it. The perk slots are for cheesing with aura. But you almost see the point. It's like all these things existing would be unfair to the other side.
Basekit BT was added because a perk was filling in a hole to make the game playable. Same reason infinites were removed. How on earth is this example still being cited in 2026?
I agree with you basekit killer powers vs survivor perks is night and day, I guess that's why I was arguing against making killer power things into survivor perks but your point stands that it's very strong. I don't know how to address that though without basically turning every new killer into "dash slop but green instead of blue". Your point stands about power creeping killer powers compared to survivor baseline though.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118988#Comment_4118988
The goalpost wasn't moved. I said:
special basekit abilities that allow them to negate pretty much all killer powers and perks
Negate ALL. I don't mean for 10s. I mean for the match. Judgement shuts down sabos and shuts down dozens of hook based perks. So give me the survivor BASEKIT that allows me to keep a killer's whole build offline, as well as their add-ons. Because if I bring DS, DH, Deli, and Self-Preaeravtion along with a flashlight literally none of my things work for the entire match, and the killer still has perks on top of that basekit.
So please do tell me the survivior equivalent of that.
Because if a survivor perk existed that was "You cannot be hooked, you can only be sent to the floozle realm, where when rescued, you spawn healthy instead of injured" would be ran as much as borrowed time back in the day and would eventually be begged to be base-kit just like BT was.
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Until survivors get punished for "omg the killer is at 1 hook and youre about to knock out the 3rd/4th gen!!!" I don't think a catch up system to that degree should exist. Or is there not an equiv where the killer has nothing when the 3-4-5 genth pops? In b4 "dude this never happens except streamer killers vs 4 randos"
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117809#Comment_4117809
Okay? and the extreme increase in killer aura reading has made it just "auto pilot to ambient occlusion survivor spectre". that oversimplification means nothing, just because you can more efficiently path to a resource doesn't mean you are going to use it efficiently, just like Killer Aura Reading doesn't mean you're getting a free hit.
The new windows literally just changes it to make it entirely more useful for longtime players and heavily nerfs it for new players. removes most of its information ability but gives a 10% vault bonus lol… here comes Lithe + Windows on everybody.I agree aura reading is too prevalent now and should be nerfed/a base system change to prevent multiple aura reading from killer rolling out. It's as you say, you don't need to really use your eyes. The perks literally point you where to go
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"beginner friendly" but its the most used survior perk after several years and allows you to auto pilot to yellow. (I think pain res should be nerfed for the exact same reason as I would point to most of the killer popular perks)
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117288#Comment_4117288
How about just making people who are unhooked 'ethereal' for fifteen seconds. They can't be seen or interact with the killer during this time or until they preform a conspicuous action. Can't bodyblock but also a guaranteed protection from tunneling.
This is the best solution with the only downside being it technically removes interaction, you'd never have a sick body block or getting past a body blocker to still down someone. I think its "healthier" for the game overall but it is somewhat sad it would remove that interaction level.
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StB change should have a passive, or come with an alert that another player in the lobby has it equipped, or we should be able to see load outs in the lobby. It feels bad that you could have a perk 100% turned off from solo queue with multiple survivors running it and you wouldn't know until it's too late. Making it do at least something passively or giving people heads up before the game starts in some form feels a little more fair.
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get ready for tons of "ermm akshually scratched mirror myers was one of the most toxic/worst playstyles ever, even if you let all the survivors go"
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@Angy_Quentin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116631#Comment_4116631
The issue with aura builds is, that it waters down the skill needed to play the killer. Same with judgement. Thousands of hours should still mean something imo.
Does this not apply on the inverse side though? Why does a thousand hour trapper fare so poorly against 4 man swf or against any team with a moderate amount of game knowledge ignoring comms entirely?
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I don't think there's any way to balance her out without a total rework. As shown in this thread the nerfs will never be enough as long as her core power remains, in the past it was "nurse just needs to have non basic blink attacks and she'll be perfect" but after that it was "good nurses ran aura aways, nothing nerf" and now we are seeing the same thing with aura perks, and I imagine it will be the same "good nurses aren't effected by this"
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@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114706#Comment_4114706
I wouldn't mind if 2 furthest statues where needed to rescue like with pyramid head the cage is on opposite side of the map, it already gives enough value from the zealous and countering a lot of perks (but making some perks worse for the killer, so it goes both ways).
If it was the furthest 2 statues, then just like PH. Caging/exiling 90% of the time would be a bad play to do. Any regular PH players do not cage on demand for that exact reason just like no Judgement player exiles 2+ players simulteanously for the exact same reason. It's killing your own pressure and macro play.
Zealous is not worth: exile → 2 seconds later unhook. Just like for PH, caging when you are not in a great position is a misplay because most of the time it's just a free unhook for the survivor team
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The idea of "here's 5 stomp games where I won the game is super killer sided" is silly, however that said the game has never been more friendly to killers than it is today.
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The problem with this is permutations. E.G it sounds like you are picturing it solely from a "I want to ban these 2-4 killers". But in a 4 survivor match that is 4 * (2-4) = 8-16 killers banned. That is a LOT of the roster. Add in queue dodging and MMR matching and it turns into a total rats nest of "what is your queue time going to be based on you and your teammates bans, as well as the current snapshot of killers in queue (E.G. What if you have a ghoul banned but there are 15 killlers "waiting" but they are all ghouls? What happens then?)"
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It's kind of funny how people cry about a super telegraphed, super obvious killer, with tells from across the planet, but because their sweeet baby lord henz, otz, and scott jund cries they either do or do not complain. Case in point Henry is so much easier to play and has so much better rewards than judgment but nobody says a peep about that because apparently drawing triangles is easier than just plopping a circle in front of people.
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I wish survivor had some kind of overflow system where if you get cap'd on a certain category it fills out other categories(ideally at a 1:1 but w/e if it needs to be reduced it can be). Being a gen jockey or taking the killer on a chase or healing can be absolutely the right play but if you do "too much" you get punished by less BP and score.
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Disagree because what would that really acomplish? On both sides the gameplay would be nitpicked to hell and back just to deny the person's point;
"Omg these survivors are garbage, no wonder you think killer is OP".
"2 of the 4 survivors weren't running exhaustion perks..no wonder you think X is overpowered",
"uh yeah, a stacked team with 4 toolboxes with bnp + hyperfocus & stakeout will crush a bad ghostface, is that really your point?"
"Are you seriously running pebble and complaining about killers camping and tunneling?"
"Kate was throwing when she tried to mind game the kaneki like a dummy and went down in 5 seconds, game was over after that"
"This has to be a low MMR game because X did Y lol, do you really think something needs to be nerfed because your games are like this?"
There's no world where the gameplay will actually be acknowledged as "ok yeah you have a point", it will just be "anecdotal!! And the people/you are bad and so therefore your point deserves zero thought". -
@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103312#Comment_4103312
Why do we believe anyone in real life? Anyone can lie to you, but some people are telling the truth, some aren't, and there's lots of subjectivity mixed in.
We use our knowledge of the world and our ability to evaluate arguments (the same thing we do to show why Nightlight isn't reliable). In DbD context, we all have our play experience, but can also watch other people play and talk to each other. A good example, one @cogsturning has made before, is what killer on these forums actually has a KR approaching the 50% Nightlight has? There obviously have to be at least a couple of people, but its so far outside the norm of what people actually have that its initially suspect; then throw on that it doesn't agree with BHVR's data, nor is the data even consistent across its own site, and you have bad data. Is it a data collection problem, a self selection bias, or are people intentionally misleading it are all academic questions, but for the sake of discussion value, its worthless.
Data informs discussions, it doesn't determine them, and bad data undermines the ability to have an honest discussion.
In effect there is no point to arguing anything because it could be fake or anecdotal so it doesn't really matter.Just because someone could lie, doesn't mean we need to accept data (Nightlight's) that we have substantial reasons to believe is extremely inaccurate. What you're arguing is kind of the reverse of the Perfect Solution fallacy - you're saying we can't discount anything because anyone could potentially be lying.
You make really good points! Overall I guess the real reason I dislike this line of thinking is it provides the perfect backdoor to get out of any argument you dislike, if someone provides proof you can claim its fake, if someone does not provide proof you can handwave it away as an anecdotal experience and not representative of the whole. It's a perfect backdoor to arguing.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103308#Comment_4103308
A single person can be disagreed with. They have to defend their points and others can call them out when they don't make sense. And if a post contains lies/provably wrong things they can be called out.
We had an example of such a thing a few days days ago.
Bad data is insidious. No one can be called on to defend it, it just becomes 'the best we have'. Except its worse than nothing, because its wrong and leads people to believe things that aren't true. Having an opinion about how you think the game is, but you can't say for sure because of lack of data and thus you need to argue why you think that, is much better than having an opinion that a person doesn't feel the need to defend because 'the data supports it'.
The alternative is having discussions, people actually explaining why they believe something, and answering those who disagree with them.
At that point why believe anything though? Clearly if it's not from BHVR then its suspect to photo editing, AI editing, and the like. And if someon does not approach the argument with a "proof" in hand then its anecdotal and can be hand waved away/ignored. You "feel" something is Overpowered/underpowered/bad/good/whatever, it's just "ancedotal" and cannot be taken seriously. You're stuck between a rock and a hard place of "I cant trust what you say" and also simultaneously "Well just because you experienced X doesn't mean everyone does". In effect there is no point to arguing anything because it could be fake or anecdotal so it doesn't really matter.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102959#Comment_4102959
But if you can just override what's in the screenshot what's even the point of the screenshot? Why isn't there just a box where I can write "match 1: they all escaped trust me"? How can anything be this horribly inaccurate and even be known of, not to mention popular and commonly cited? I'm totally baffled by this. I knew it was bad but I didn't know it was this bad.
Unless BHVR provides API endpoints to pull this data this is literally all you can do, if BHVR isn't going to supply the data willingly then the only alternative is community provided data. Which as your point out, can absolutely be lied about….but what's the alternative, try not to collect any data at all because some poeple could lie? At that point why even have the forums, anyone can lie about anything here, what's the value in it if it cannot be absolutely proven?
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- Nowhere to hide - shouldn't follow the killer
- Hyperfocus - dumb perk that is the peak of "by itself with nothing its not bad at all" but "comboed its broken". The same design BHVR has said in the past they want to minimize because it makes balancing things a nightmare.
- Hex perks/system - Most hex perks are bad. The few that aren't bad really only shine on a select few killers. So why do these even exist? When was the last time anyone saw hex crowd control being run? Or anything outside of the 3-4 meta hex perks?
- Teamwork perks/system - Just like hex perks, but these are all bad. They should be better/not have such a "when you get x distance away the perk just turns off". I get the fear of making them too strong, but they're way too weak for now
- Boon perks & invocations - Just like 3 & 4 I feel like these have the potential to be so much more interesting but they're so limited and they're so scared of CoH 2.0 that they'll never shine. Same thing with invocations.
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I mean, the true answer is it depends on multiple factors. You'd have to go back into DBDS history to see why that is, back in the day there were zero dedicated servers and the game was entirely P2P(peer to peer). In that case someone has to be the "brain" of the game and BHVR chose the killer for that role. Meaning if the killer got a hit on his screen, even if you escaped on your screen you were gonna get hit. Bhvr eventually stood up dedicated servers but did not really change the underlying code outside of 2 specific events, pallet stuns and dead hard. were given server side validation such that if the survivors "thing"(throwing a pallet/dead harding) got to the server first, even if the killer hit you on their screen, you would "win" and not lose the health state. As far as I know other than those two events its pretty much still the same way it was many many years ago. Which to go back to my original point it depends on your ping as well as the killers ping as the bigger the difference is between those two numbers the bigger the "BS" to one side or the other(its typically survivors in todays world).
Edit: I guess technically there is a third event which I forgot to describe which is the killer grabbing the survivor off of a gen. BHVR changed it so that if the survivor started running first, but the killer got a grab then the killer goes from grabbing → an auto M1 swing. It's super janky and feels bad as the killer, and usually lets the survivor get away AND punishes you with a whiff cooldown but that's technically another change they made in regard to the "event" system.
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@Flopkween said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101978#Comment_4101978
I don't think these are comparable. Deliverance isn't free. The survivor still has to work for it by getting a safe unhook to get the effect. you're example doesn't do that.
That's fair, make it require two hooks then. The point is not the activation condition but that once per game perks that are meta will always be extremely strong for swf compared to solo. Unbreakable plays, decisive strike at the perfect time, Etc. You absolutely can still do these solo but for a swf on comms it's significantly easier to use the effects to turn a game around or clinch an escape. I was trying to create a similar scenario for killer when really there's no perk like that currently with the closest examples being coup or pop but they're not quite the same
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Remind me, what survivor perk had 80% usage at high mmr? It's on the tip of my tongue, it lasted for years before multiple soft rollout nerfs, uhh alive soft?
We can also talk about circle of healing, made for this, pallet vaccum, insta heals, insta blinds, 100% guaranteed locker blind tech, old decisive strike, old iron will, map design with infinites and larger total size
Both sides have had absolutely busted things in their favor. I do agree killer powers are being power crept and there is nothing equivalent on survivor side, but what live service game doesn't suffer from this issue, and I don't know a good solution to this problem.
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It's not an issue at all on solo queue. On a comm squad who knows what's going on and min/maxes to the extreme? Yeah it's brutal. Imagine a killer perk equiv "After 1 gen has been completed your next gen kick action regresses the gen by 100%. Can only be used once per trial". Is it so bad? Is it so OP? Nah, not against the killer who blindly kicks without thinking. But what about vs the killer who is min maxing to the extreme and keeping track of the 3 gen they want to keep, patrolling efficently, and going out of their way to keep a particular zone locked down? Seeing a gen go from 75%+ to 0 is awful. Deliverance is that but for survivors. Against most, and against solo queue it is nothing/not a real issue but against a team on comms unless you go out of your way to tunnel then it's a pretty obnoxious tool.
Edit : This harkens back to the old OOO argument. For those not aware old OOO functioned as a "perma wall hax on the killer, but they get perma wall hax on you". Obviously, extremely broken on swf and a nothing burger on solo queue. This perk was one of the most broken perks in the game back in the day and BHVR justified it for a very long time without nerfs because "the guy who brings it in, usually dies most of the time". Entirely negating that the benefit is yes you die but 3 of your teammates get wall hack callouts until you are dead for the entire game. Certain perks are bad in solo but absolutely busted in swf. Just like old OOO , deliverance shines in coms and with plans on swf.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100028#Comment_4100028
You're using the 2 most stereotypical scapegoat "weak" killers in the game as examples. They're used to talk about how weak killers are in 1v4 too, even though it's always just those two and maybe Pig that seem to be the problem.
And Ghostface is an instadown killer. Poison should theoretically go hard on him. Mark, poison, free down.
I feel like we are stuck in a circle at tis point.
""only meta killers" = "obnoxius killers" = "complained about killers" = "buffs" = "cycle repeats".
If the idea is "bad killers" can't complain about being bad, than surely the same can be extended to survivors ya? If you aren't running a strong survivor loadout or speaking with buddies on coms you lose the right to complain. Just like the example above. "why are you playing trapper/ghostfacee when they are so bad". -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100025#Comment_4100025
I'm not sure what super strong killers were nerfed in the event? Some less common ones just went harder than normal. I'm also not sure why you're approaching the event as though it was a killer nerf event. Survivors had more, but poison was super strong, and unlike very loud invisibilty and easy to ignore invincibility, it wasn't counterable if they got poisoned in the open.
I'm pretty on the record being anti exhaustion and anti Vigil so I'm afraid that gotcha particular isn't gonna work. I couldn't care less if they deleted those perks from the game and I'd very much like a perkless mode.
You can believe what you want. I have 1000s of matches in killer. It's currently my preferred role. But pick one though. Do I not play killer, or were they not at my skill level? They were aggressive and I was aggressive back, far more than usual, and that made me win more than I do in 1v4 where survivors sit on gens until they can prerun me with Sprint Burst.
I feel like most non insta down killers were "nerfed" for a variety of reasons. Bubba throwing poison onto a survivor and backrevving into an insta down did not care at alll about the survivors health state nor table state in the event. Howeer if you were playing say ghostface or trapper, even with throwing poison onto a survivor, there was a massive differennce in that you chasing a survivor who got insta healed mid chase could not be overcome by anything you (the killer) did.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100021#Comment_4100021
I mean yeah, I'd rather see those killers over endless Ghouls or Jasons. A little lot of people seem to feel the same. That's not a far comparsion in any way though. This is a mode where some killers were stronger and others were weaker. Your instadown example just randomly has a group of killers getting weaker without the counter of some getting stronger.
Broken but interactive, and potentially game throwing if overly focused on or used poorly. I won the vast majority of my killer matches. The ones I lost were ones where people just sat on gens and maybe jumped into a portal if they saw me coming. Do you think survivors want a extra task that's boring and useless? Do you think they want to cleanse more hex totems? This gave them the option of using something potentially powerful (if used right) or just sitting on gens.
I mean, BHVR has never done it, but would you be opposed to the opposite? "Annoying killers should be nerfed". Where is that cross for survviors? "Annoying perks should be nerfed - lets introudce an event that doubles all exhaustion timers and turns vigil off"
and yes yes we all know the story of "Ive never played killer before, I hopped on trapper and 4k'd 5000 times during banquet" sorry if I dont' believe you/don't really think most of the survviors you played were at your skill level if you overwhelmingly 4kd non-stop. -
I disagree on a few points
"It got killers to swap up who they played"
This is bad. Can you imagine an inverse event where all insta downs turned into single health state detractors just for the fun of the event? Billy/buba/certain perk users just get to "lose" just cause. How is this a pro or a good benefit unless you hate typical meta picks and loved seeing more bubba/billy/plague vs ghouls.
"It gave survivors a secondary objective"
That was obnoxiously broken, sure. We can play this same game on the inverse side. What if we made it so if you hook a survivor that is not the last survvior that has been hooked the gen with the most progress regresses to 0%. sounds like we just fixed tunneling ya, or is it a blatantly broken effect? Much like the banquets effects. -
Naw there's gonna be 3 outcomes of auto aim being added
- Too weak - no noticeable effect.
2. Too strong - Vecnas, huntresses, jasons, any killer who has a ranged power is now a power house thanks to the computer aiming for them.
3. Too weak AND makes killers worse - That lined up shot you made? Auto aim decided naw you meant to shoot it dead center and so the survivor dodged and we just effectively killed prediction based ranged attacks.
None of the above 3 sound good and what is the likelihood auto aim lands in 1 of those 3 camps vs being "just right".Edit: This also opens up the can of worms that is XIM and other PC "im on controller trust me bro" programs that exist solely to reap the maximum reward of controller hand holding while also playing on PC.
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And uhhh what exactly is that killer? It's fine to claim those things but you provide no implementation details. How do you actually draw the lines of this outside of "Bhvr please make a fun, high skill killer, that's not annoying, and people love to vs, and isnt OP nor too weak, its so easy come on dude" OP what makes wesker okay but not nurse? You say you like gunslinger but what does that mean…current gunslinger? Would you/did you like the old one with smaller TR and monitor and abuse? All that to say your lines of "this killers cool" can very swiftly change with a few balance notes.
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probably that swf was waiting in queue for X time and BHVRs logic says if you exceed Y you get pushed to the front of -any- matches. Skill doesn't matter, time does. The single sole time Bhvr truly prioritized skill content creators cried they couldn't find matches and BHVR reverted their change asap.
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There will always be a meta and it's largely the same as its always been solo queue < killer < swf. There's obviously exceptions and we can dive into metas and such but the current roster of strong killers feature high mobility, strong abilities, with lots of passive goodies usually compared to say trapper or ghostface. I would say the largest concern for balancing, in my opinnion, are the peaks for both sides compared to the lows. E.G Take the meta obnoxious Jason Hex build and put it on Ghostface, it's not even a fraction of how good it is on Jason. Similarly solo queue gen speed is going to be awful compared to say a toolbox BNP + swivel socket + hyperfocus + stakeout team.
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Logically if you know you have 1 "bonus" health state that is going to expire anyways on doing x or after y seconds, using it to block the killer taking a real health state away from a teammate makes sense
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I think it would be fine vs good survivors but would turn newer/less experienced survivors into total punching bags. Dredge is already a noobie stomper and it would only encourage that more and would probably spike his popularity up and then get him subsequent nerfs.
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Heal is the worst especially vs players who understand it well and can maximize the proc.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096661#Comment_4096661
Yeah, thats the issue. Aside from Springtrap, every Killer released for quite some time has been a powercrept version of previous Killers. E.g. Dracula is an example, I have no problem with Dracula, but it cannot be denied that he has more going on than other Killers.
I also dont understand some design choices. E.g. why Jason lets the Survivors scream despite them using Perks to avoid screaming or when they are in Lockers. Sure, crouching as counterplay exists, but if I look at Doctor for example, who has a large chunk of his power resolve around screaming, he might get 0 information from Survivors just being in Lockers on his static blast, which also has a lengthy cooldown.
Or Huntress, who is a fine Killer, but is 4,4 m/s and has to spend time reloading, while Jason is 4,6 (only 4,4 on paper) and can reload without spending much time and therefore without losing much distance. (Let alone that Huntress has one of the worst map mobilities while Jason has one of the best)
Completely agree with you, power creeping killer to such a vast degree is awful. It's only going to lead to a few scenarios
A. Perks are nerfed because of the "meta" killers, every other killer feels bad but survivor players don't necessarily feel it because it doesn't really matter if trapper is "Weak" if 9 out of 10 games is ghoul/jason/X pick.
B. Survivors need better perks to counteract the meta roster which leads back to the outcome of A at the end of the day. Killers who are not part of the select few feel terrible but at the peak it's "balanced"
Jason should not get his speed buff probably or be toned down in several other ways, at the end of the day his kit is extremely bloated compared to any older killer on the roster. Why did BHVR choose to do that? who knows? But at the end of the day it is absolutely going to impact future killer and survivor perks which is kind of lame. Like you said, it's not just Jason though, all the recent killers absolutely have bloat compared to older designs.I think the real root cause is BHVR does not balance on a "fix the current world", they balance on a "net new world". Old killers remain dumpy and bad but new killers get the "solutions" to killer complaints baked into their kits. Survivors are just skins so they are slightly different but not too much at the end of the day in that BHVR is just gonna throw a new band aid perk solution onto the pile at some point to deal with complaints about "X".
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096657#Comment_4096657
If I look at the current stream of very forgiving Killers… bad players.
Absolutely agree killers have been power crept because the entire game's balance has been an arm's race. Look at the old infamous "hag DBD dev video" her traps took what? an eternity and a half to place? Killer players hated M1 killers and infinites and survivors liked them, BHVR has been in a constant back and forth of giving survivors better perks and baseline abilities and then power creeping killer powers to make up for the stronger survivor toolkit, which leads back to survivor complaints, which leads to BHVR bufffing them, which leads to killers complaining, which leads to killer buffs/power creep. Can you imagine if a Doctor style killer came out today? His shock blast would probably straight up injure survivors somehow and his blast would be significantly better.
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I'd rather not relive circle of healing or dead hard taking years to balance because BHVR needs to baby walk nerf survivor meta perks back. Getting elusive every single chase at every tile you looped, if you don't play like a bot and run in linear lines 100% of the time, was insanely strong at certain tiles. Yes, bad survivors probably won't make use of it. But do we balance around bad players or good players?
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Sure, killers can ban 5-8 perks too and then when no one is able to play because everyone has banned the most annoying/op things on both sides we will have more time to post here.
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@dangersmymidd1ename said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095956#Comment_4095956
Yeah, but you just have to compare it to.. I'm All Ears - just for equipping the perk you'll see the aura of the person when they vault, and it works in chase. Why is it not OK for there to be some perks that counter it? What about Predator - you lose the chase and get rewarded with the aura of the survivor who successfully outplayed you.
if "I"m All Ears" was the equivalent of cross examination it would say "When a survivor fast vaults within 48M of you, reveal their aura until they get at least 64M away from you, 15 second cooldown".
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@Cornil said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095493#Comment_4095493
I mean, that's kinda the whole point of this discussion. When I play survivor, people leaving is what ruins my match. I don't want to stay in a match where the killer will just slug me for the 4k or tunnel me out because someone ragequit and I'm left with a bot as a teammate who refuses to unhook if the killer is within 40 meters of the hook. I think it'd only be fair that if one, or maybe to be more modest two players quit, then I should be able to abandon.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095520#Comment_4095520
The problem with your argument here is that, as someone who has played all of those games (other than Valorant), the comparisons made don't really work. Who is trolling in Competitive mode on CS or R6 and not getting flamed, kicked, or teamkilled by the randoms on their team?
The whole point of that sentence from my post is that I didn't sign up to play competitive Dead By Daylight when I clicked the play button on the menu in the normal gamemode or the anniversary event. And yet people will rage quit at the first sign of the match going sour. They don't even wait to see it play out, if their teammates can recover for them by doing an extra gen, getting a good save, and what not. I've seen people get downed, disconnect before the killer even picks them up, just for the bot to then get flashlight saved. No amount of disconnect penalty can truly prevent them from being that entitled and easily angered. The more you increase the penalties, it'll just mean the less they'll play the game. Which hey, maybe in the long run, that will be the healthiest thing for the game. But the other side of that coin is killer matches where survivors do the objectives at the slowest speed possible and basically just 3v1 you in chase for 10+ minutes straight to make you miserable and ensure you can't play the game normally, since the killer objective is hooks. Killers are the center of the match's flow, they determine everything and survivors merely react to it and have to play around the killer. So if the killer is not having fun, the game is just over. Hence why BHVR hasn't added killer bots to the main game yet, just 2v8. It would be more or less redundant in normal pubs.
It's probably a big ask, but if there were a proper implementation of a not abusable surrender feature/condition of sorts, for killer and survivor, like when teammates DC or as killer when you haven't gotten a single hook in about 5 to 10 minutes, you'd be allowed to abandon, I'd feel like I have more control over my enjoyment of the game. I wouldn't feel so contingent on getting teammates or opponents that are good sports and aren't just going to hold me hostage or sabotage my chances of escaping.
"Who is trolling in X game" ?
Uhh literally people arguing in the same vein as you? "Its a game bro calm down", "I'll pick who I want to pick", "I have a main, I'm not counter picking or reacting to the enemy team countering me, deal with it." You don't get to play solo in team based pvp games and get away scott free just cause. If you would get mad at someone throwing in those games why would you not get mad at someone throwing in DBD?
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"This is a casual game for crying out loud, not Counterstrike, not Valorant, not Rainbow Six"
Says who? You can apply this to literally any game.
"I want to troll in rainbow six siege, this isn't league of legends! Lol! Stop Sweating"
"I want to troll in valorant! Why are people mad, this isnt rainbow six siege?"
"I want to troll in counterstrike, why are people mad at me? This isn't league/rainbow six, stop sweating!"
If you argument is "Game is not X it's Y!" You can apply that to literally anything. at Its core DBD is a pvp game which means people will take it seriously, if you disagree that's more than fine but to act like "ITS CASUAL LOL ANYTHING GOES" I mean at that point why even balance the game at all? Bring back old CoH, bring back old gen kick meta, bring back old ruin, bring back old brand new part and ebony mori? Who cares, it's casual right? -
bruh im sorry but lol. If you spent X amount of time designing a model, creating a skeleton, pegging animations to that skeleton, etc. etc. Would you expect to be paid 0 dollars? I'ts fine and nice to say "it should be free!" but how many hours of effort went into the design, skeleton, rigging, etc. etc. In an ideal world I agree with you it would be free but this isn't an ideal world.
Keep in mind to you saying "hell no"" to the above is that there is nothing related to this group ever produced. I'm not saying it's right but pointing out the reality of the situation. How much do you think BHVR spent on this survivor design? from concept to initial design to model to animation, etc. etc.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4093512#Comment_4093512
What about Haunted by daylight Insta downs with haunts? (not my clip used as reference)
Also stupid. My point is not "killer good survivor bad" my point, poorly communicated earlier, is these events are a terrible arms race of BS effects that only keep going up. Okay cool, survivors get all these interesting powers and killers don't. What is the next "killer sided" event going to look like? I am willing to bet money its not just the old effects and will be even more obnoxious and annoying the previous year. BHVR has an awful tracck record of just power creeping over the previous events and pushing it to live with 0 consideration which then absolute bombs the queue times after people on the "losing side" just grind out the quests/rewards. That's my real beef with this.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4093512#Comment_4093512
remote pallet break / abra cadabra exposed were pretty close to the same level of stupidity. but the on demand invisible into portal teleport across the map is beyond dumb
A magic insta-heal heal mid-chase .01 seconds before you M1 is not at all the same as a telepgraphed pallet break. Exposed I'll give you was dumb too, but this is that on steroids.
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There is a huge difference between "remote hook", "remote pallet break" and auto-win the chase "invuln, invis, heals at random times". The equiv would be if a killer event had a "press Q while looking at a survivor in your line of sight to teleport them right into your face and melee range".