We need the slug rework

Renfear

Just had a match against a Pig. Surveillance, of course, at RPD. She was just running around downing people, almost never hooking. We got 4 gens done but I was downed so many times that I bled out, and I wasn't the only one. That... is a really ######### experience. And too many killers abuse slugging to the point where the matches aren't fun. Not that matches are ever fun anymore regardless, but still. Maybe this will help.

Slaughterhouse3

@Renfear said:

Just had a match against a Pig. Surveillance, of course, at RPD. She was just running around downing people, almost never hooking. We got 4 gens done but I was downed so many times that I bled out, and I wasn't the only one. That... is a really ######### experience. And too many killers abuse slugging to the point where the matches aren't fun. Not that matches are ever fun anymore regardless, but still. Maybe this will help.

Well I got good news for you...

ByeByeQ

We need a slugging rework...

But not this slugging rework. Killers will have to tunnel to win, everything else will just be a throw.

Bran

We really don't though.

MDRSan

@ByeByeQ said:

We need a slugging rework...

But not this slugging rework. Killers will have to tunnel to win, everything else will just be a throw.

A throw is intentionally losing a match, not merely playing in a way that isn’t the most strategically efficient. No one should claim they can’t win a match unless they can leave their opponents on the ground for longer than 20-30 seconds. Will they be able to win as fast? Probably not. Is it worth it to give survivors a tool to not have their match be 90% browsing the internet in exchange for killers having to actually use the hook mechanic that’s been core to the game since launch? I think yes.

If everyone brings unbreakable or no mother today, does that mean survivors just steamroll the killer? Of course not.

Marik1987

No problem. If the new Basekit-Unbreakable is coming, tunneling will be the by far best and only strategy for killers left.

Marigoria

@ByeByeQ said:

We need a slugging rework...

But not this slugging rework. Killers will have to tunnel to win, everything else will just be a throw.

Most killers already just tunnel to win so what's the difference?

jajay119

@Marigoria said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3204613#Comment_3204613

Most killers already just tunnel to win so what's the difference?

Honestly loving the vast irony of all these whinging threads after the general killer attitude over the last few months.

As you said, most killers tunnel anyway. Many killers slug and camp anyway... that's the whole reason this change has happened. Killer behaviour has been the cause of this effect (just as it was for the overuse of DH, not the inverse as was lovingly toted by many a killer, Ita not going to cause killers to do anything because they do it anyway. That's the point in making these types of seriously radical changes; because it was that much of an issue already.

The_Krapper

@Marik1987 said:

No problem. If the new Basekit-Unbreakable is coming, tunneling will be the by far best and only strategy for killers left.

This isn't true, killers with high snowball potentials and builds to end the game immediately are gonna be more common, when all four survivors are slugged,hooked, or dead they auto die with these changes, are you telling me that majority of killer mains aren't smart enough to make a decision in 45 secs on whether to slug or not? People are just being crybabies as usual, you could hook a survivor and then slug and still win, for example if bubba catches and face camps a survivor now you'll almost have to leave them because if all three of you go down to save one survivor the match is instantly over without them being able to abuse hook spawns and wiggling out everytime

Seraphor

This will not prevent slugging, it will make slugging meta:

@Seraphor said:

Climb down from your towers of glee for one moment survivor mains and consider the reality of these changes.

Basekit Unbreakable is not being implemented to "prevent slugging for the 4K", it is being proposed purely because the new Mori changes for the Last Standing mechanic would be broken without it.

It in fact only promotes slugging for the 4K, because of the Mori changes.

Killers are now encouraged to activate the Last Standing Mori, either as a way to end the game easily, or to secure their BP bonus from using offerings.

The result of this is that the most efficient and likely only way to secure the Mori is to:

1. Tunnel out two survivors.
2. Slug the remaining two survivors in relay until they manage to get them both on the ground at the same time.

You will still be unable to repair all the gens with just two survivors and one perpetually slugged.

You will be stuck on the ground for even longer, unless you give up and refuse to pick yourself up off the ground. Because every time you get up you're pausing your bleedout timer, and the killer knows exactly where you are because they downed you, and you recovered instead of crawling, so they come right back and smack you down again. You will be stuck in this whack-a-mole game for much longer than 4 minutes.

Mori offerings will now be even more toxic, because if you see a killer has one, you know they're going to slug for the 4K. So whenever survivors load into a game with a hidden fifth offering, you know they're just going to DC or let themselves die right away.

1. Killers will now be encouraged to slug for the 4K in order to skip hook phases, and will infact be forced to slug for the 4K if they bring a Mori offering.
2. Solo survivor will be 'every man for themselves' as no one is going to come to the rescue of someone they know has Unbreakable. Why would they risk their own safety and risk giving the killer a Mori? Be prepared to hang out on the ground for your entire recovery duration, which may well be increased from the proposed 45 seconds.

An actual anti-slugging mechanic would look like this:

@Seraphor said:

I've made several comments about how I think these proposed changes are godawful, but simply complaining doesn't get you anywhere, so I thought of an alternative or middle ground I'd be happy with.

Last Stand: When one survivor remains in the trial, you have the ability to Kill them by your own hand. Essentially a basekit Cypress Mori offering. The same changes to the Mori offerings go through, where the offerings simply award you BP scores if you kill the last survivor, and even Rancor. Devour Hope's 5 stack effect now enables you to kill one survivor by your own hand.

This is overall more of a nerf to killers, but it still reduces the toxicity of Mori's, and it doesn't remove player agency from killers and doesn't come with a system that requires basekit Unbreakable to function.

Basekit Unbreakable: When all survivors in the trial are downed or hooked, survivors in the dying state have the ability to pick themselves up. Once one survivor has picked themselves up from the dying state, the effect is disabled for the other survivors.

This allows one survivor to get up at a time, and potentially recover from an otherwise hopeless slugging situation. If that one survivor is downed again, then the effect activates again and one of the other survivors can get back up. This prohibits the "4 slugs at 5 gens" tactic, and if the killer attempts to slug for the 4K, then when he finds and downs the last survivor the one he slugged can get themselves back up again. This does everything that survivors are saying this new system fixes, without making general slugging through the natural course of the game a prohibitive tactic, and isn't so extreme as to require the rework of all perks that interact with the dying state. It still allows slugging to be employed as a method of applying pressure, with a safeguard to protect against obnoxious use of it.

To make it a bit clearer how this would work:

Last Standing: When no survivors are 'standing' (not in the hooked or dying state), the Last Standing mechanic activates, with an audible indicator for all players. A survivor who has fully recovered can pick themselves up without the use of any perks. The Last Standing effect is disabled when a survivor becomes 'standing' again.

ByeByeQ

@MDRSan said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3204613#Comment_3204613

A throw is intentionally losing a match, not merely playing in a way that isn’t the most strategically efficient. No one should claim they can’t win a match unless they can leave their opponents on the ground for longer than 20-30 seconds. Will they be able to win as fast? Probably not. Is it worth it to give survivors a tool to not have their match be 90% browsing the internet in exchange for killers having to actually use the hook mechanic that’s been core to the game since launch? I think yes.

If everyone brings unbreakable or no mother today, does that mean survivors just steamroll the killer? Of course not.

Well for me I'll know I'm throwing when I choose not to tunnel when I play as Clown or Bubba. Currently sometimes I return to the hook and I can't find the rescuer and end up chasing and downing the recently unhooked. I like to leave them slugged if there are any gens left and I would get value from them being slugged because someone has to come pick them up. With 45 second UB, I know it'll be a throw to just leave them on the ground as another survivor doesn't even have to get off their gen and they'll be back up on their own.

As a survivor holding M1 on a gen and I see a survivor get downed and left slugged a fair distance from where I am at... Currently I am tempted to leave the gen to see if I can find a way to pick them up and possibly heal them to full. With 45 second UB, often it'll be a throw to leave my gen to pick them up and when they're up they can come to me for a heal if they even need to.

I'm not the only one who feels this way. Most killers don't need to tunnel in the current game to win. We still see a lot of tunneling.

If killers think they need to tunnel, how much more common do you think it will become?

If they do introduce base kit UB, 45 seconds is disgustingly too short. It should be double that, 90 seconds or 75 seconds at the bare minimum. Killers should know they'll get value from leaving a slug on the ground and survivors should know that they have to help their teammates off the ground. Survivors are fine with holding M1 on a gen for 90 seconds, why should they only have to suffer being slugged for 45 seconds?

@Seraphor said:

This will not prevent slugging, it will make slugging meta:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/348083/basekit-unbreakable-is-a-cursed-wish

1. Killers will now be encouraged to slug for the 4K in order to skip hook phases, and will infact be forced to slug for the 4K if they bring a Mori offering.
2. Solo survivor will be 'every man for themselves' as no one is going to come to the rescue of someone they know has Unbreakable. Why would they risk their own safety and risk giving the killer a Mori? Be prepared to hang out on the ground for your entire recovery duration, which may well be increased from the proposed 45 seconds.

An actual anti-slugging mechanic would look like this:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/347941/counter-offer-last-stand-and-basekit-unbreakable

I can only think of a few scenarios where it'll be meta to slug with 4 survivors left in the game. Starstruck Nurse and maybe Blight, Spirit. Bubba when he gets lucky and somehow downs 2 or 3 survivors with one chainsaw and knows where the last survivor(s) is(are). Maybe a god Billy. I can't really think of many other scenarios where a killer can get all 4 survivors down inside of a 45 second window. Certainly not any Clown, Wraith or Pig.

For many killers the meta will be to tunnel 1 or 2 players out of the game first and then maybe slug the rest to end the game. Killers will hard tunnel more since they know they won't get as much value from leaving a survivor slugged.

TotemSeeker91

@jajay119 said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3204726#Comment_3204726

Honestly loving the vast irony of all these whinging threads after the general killer attitude over the last few months.

As you said, most killers tunnel anyway. Many killers slug and camp anyway... that's the whole reason this change has happened. Killer behaviour has been the cause of this effect (just as it was for the overuse of DH, not the inverse as was lovingly toted by many a killer, Ita not going to cause killers to do anything because they do it anyway. That's the point in making these types of seriously radical changes; because it was that much of an issue already.

And many killers don't do either and just have fun with 2 hooking everyone