Last Standing is the real issue

[Deleted User]

Reading through the announcement it comes across like they had to implement a base-kit UB due to the mori changes. Combatting slugging as a tactic is just a secondary effect.

What I don’t understand though is why the whole “last standing” element is so unnecessarily complicated. Literally just activate it when all other survivors are dead or have escaped and only one remains. The fact it activates when someone is hooked and struggling and then deactivates if they’re rescued is just weird. The fact it activates when survivors are slugged is also weird and has now led to all this nonsense and all the arguments about base-kit UB. This is bad game design, pure and simple. If survivors get in a situation where all four are slugged, a majority of the time I’m not blaming the killer. Somewhere along the way some seriously bad decisions have been made.

Literally all that had to be done was when one survivor remains alive in the trial, the last standing mode activates. The other three survivors either have to be sacrificed or have escaped. Hooked or slugged doesn’t contribute to this. Because whilst mass slugging is annoying to face, it is rare enough where it shouldn’t be considered that much of an issue to necessitate bringing in unlimited UB. Whereas with these mori changes the devs have actually created more problems they have to now solve with problematic solutions.

However to appease survivors, to keep it fair, base-kit UB can still be a thing, but it should be one time use. Maybe after 45 seconds or slightly longer. But that’s it. Seriously, why is this so hard? Just like the perk update some of these ideas are just ridiculously convoluted and cause more problems than benefits (in most cases zero benefits).

TeleportingTurkey

I don't see your problem.

Basekit UB will ALWAYS work, regardless of last standing.

Meanwhile, last standing counts different situations, not just "everyone except one is slugged/hooked/dead". One survivor can be dead, the other can be slugged, other can be hooked and the fourth one is last standing and if he goes down, the match is forced to end.

Last standing is just a fancy way of describing "when there's no survivor left standing, the match is forced to end".

And because of how it works, basekit unlimited UB is justified, as killer's win condition now is not to hook all 4 survivors, but to just get them on the ground. And once that happens there's literally nothing that would come in clutch. Plus, in a way this buffed slugging killers who rely on slugging a lot of survivors quickly like Nurse, Oni or Plague, because now there's no way survivors can self-pickup earlier than 45 seconds. So killers now have a 45 seconds window to get everyone on the ground to instantly win the match. It is more than achievable for killers like Oni or starstruck Nurse, especially if they do it in mid/late game after getting one guy out of the match.

I still think this update is rather dumb, because it essentially took moris from killers, because "dumb BHVR reasoning", while survivors got a very major gameplay change.

fake

It is easy to imagine that the developers were inspired by Ada's Low Profile and would have come up with this idea in a conference room.

It's infuriating to contemplate.

[Deleted User]

@TeleportingTurkey said:

I don't see your problem.

Basekit UB will ALWAYS work, regardless of last standing.

Meanwhile, last standing counts different situations, not just "everyone except one is slugged/hooked/dead". One survivor can be dead, the other can be slugged, other can be hooked and the fourth one is last standing and if he goes down, the match is forced to end.

Last standing is just a fancy way of describing "when there's no survivor left standing, the match is forced to end".

And because of how it works, basekit unlimited UB is justified, as killer's win condition now is not to hook all 4 survivors, but to just get them on the ground. And once that happens there's literally nothing that would come in clutch. Plus, in a way this buffed slugging killers who rely on slugging a lot of survivors quickly like Nurse, Oni or Plague, because now there's no way survivors can self-pickup earlier than 45 seconds. So killers now have a 45 seconds window to get everyone on the ground to instantly win the match. It is more than achievable for killers like Oni or starstruck Nurse, especially if they do it in mid/late game after getting one guy out of the match.

I still think this update is rather dumb, because it essentially took moris from killers, because "dumb BHVR reasoning", while survivors got a very major gameplay change.

I mean, that is my problem. Last standing activates in too many scenarios. And how they have designed it has led to a need to implement an unlimited base-kit UB. That is literally my issue and my opinion is this is poor design.

We can have a separate discussion on whether that’s a good thing due to slugging as a tactic in general, but having to implement it due to a new feature is bad game design IMO. The fact they are currently happy for it to stack with UB in its current form is also ludicrous.

Last standing should not activate whilst survivors are technically still alive in the trial is my point. Hooked survivors are not dead. Neither are slugged survivors. One or multiple of those survivors could have brought the current version of UB. Another survivor could have deliverance, the hooked survivor could use it or 4%. The slugged survivors could be away from hooks, someone could wiggle off etc etc. There are too many variables and scenarios in the game which mean the activation of last standing should be limited. At which point the need for an unlimited free unbreakable is also gone.

Seraphor

Last Standing should be the condition that activates basekit Unbreakable, not the other way around:

@Seraphor said:

I've made several comments about how I think these proposed changes are godawful, but simply complaining doesn't get you anywhere, so I thought of an alternative or middle ground I'd be happy with.

Last Stand: When one survivor remains in the trial, you have the ability to Kill them by your own hand. Essentially a basekit Cypress Mori offering. The same changes to the Mori offerings go through, where the offerings simply award you BP scores if you kill the last survivor, and even Rancor. Devour Hope's 5 stack effect now enables you to kill one survivor by your own hand.

This is overall more of a nerf to killers, but it still reduces the toxicity of Mori's, and it doesn't remove player agency from killers and doesn't come with a system that requires basekit Unbreakable to function.

Basekit Unbreakable: When all survivors in the trial are downed or hooked, survivors in the dying state have the ability to pick themselves up. Once one survivor has picked themselves up from the dying state, the effect is disabled for the other survivors.

This allows one survivor to get up at a time, and potentially recover from an otherwise hopeless slugging situation. If that one survivor is downed again, then the effect activates again and one of the other survivors can get back up. This prohibits the "4 slugs at 5 gens" tactic, and if the killer attempts to slug for the 4K, then when he finds and downs the last survivor the one he slugged can get themselves back up again. This does everything that survivors are saying this new system fixes, without making general slugging through the natural course of the game a prohibitive tactic, and isn't so extreme as to require the rework of all perks that interact with the dying state. It still allows slugging to be employed as a method of applying pressure, with a safeguard to protect against obnoxious use of it.

The Mori changes mean that killers are now incentivised to down every survivor, which will only lead to more "slugging for 4K", as it's the only way to secure your bonus for playing a Mori offering.

But if survivors could get themselves up only when every survivor is down, then it would prevent obnoxious slugging rather than encouraging it.

Once again, BHVR's anti-X measures are having the opposite effect.

Cybil

@fake said:

It is easy to imagine that the developers were inspired by Ada's Low Profile and would have come up with this idea in a conference room.

It's infuriating to contemplate.

What? Low profile was most likely made with this change in mind...