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Lexilogo
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Lone Wolf is IMO too powerful. Splitting up for gens is already optimal and an additional 10% action speed in that situation is a bit much.
Accolade Work would be interesting if it had a different bonus from completing gen's worth of progress, but as you present it it's pretty much a worse Wake Up!, which is already considered a bad Perk.
Stand Your Ground is solid, though I would prefer its effect being rolled into a Perk like Buckle Up instead of being its own thing.
Evanescent Run is pretty bad, but if its effect was added to Sole Survivor I wouldn't be against it. As it stands though it has a weak effect in a very specific situation you probably won't survive anyway and has a tiny chance of actually coming in handy in a match.
Over The Hurdles is IMO too specific and competes with some other Perks like Quick & Quiet which are overall stronger, but it might see some use especially for Survivors that struggle to reliably fastvault in some loops, it's just that in those situations it's a little unlikely OTH would be off cooldown.
Goal Over Others is too specific to see much use, it's hard to realistically think of a situation where I'd take this over, say, Left Behind.
Long Gone is legitimately a very interesting idea for a Perk and I'd be interested in seeing it get used.
Peculiar Help is just a bit underwhelming.
I think that most of these Perks aren't great ideas, but as a pile of brainstorm salvage for Perk concepts this is actually a good thread, I particularly like the ideas behind Long Gone and Stand Your Ground. With more thought being put into these Perks fitting into specific archetypes/uses, instead of just coming up with a single idea for an effect, I think many of these could be made into seriously great Perks, but as it stands they're simply some good ideas that don't necessarily make good Perks on their own. Still a fun thread to read, though, and props for creativity!
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I think one change that isn't that direct but would still help significantly would be adding more non-specific Perks and buffing the non-specific ones that already exist.
I think it's absurd that BHVR have pretty much acknowledged via game balance that Exhaustion perks are meta for Survivors and gen delay perks are meta for Killers, but there are zero non-Teachable Perks for either category.
We shouldn't be telling new players "well, here, go level up david king for dead hard", they should be able to start with whatever Survivor they want and pick up a neutral exhaustion perk from there, for example.
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Well... Thank you for sharing.
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While hookbombing DOES actually benefit me as a Killer main, yes, I can agree that the BP reward gap between safe/unsafe hook rescues needs increasing.
Sometimes the person you save might screw up themselves, in which cases losing the BP might be frustrating, but the bottom line is that unsafe hook rescues are a massive detriment to the team and should not be rewarded with +1000 BP, with the safe rescues that actually are a huge help only 500 bonus BP.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1235878#Comment_1235878
Trapper in a skirt lmao
Well, I mean, Japanese male schoolkids exist, but...
You know what? Screw it, let's go with the skirt. And thigh-high stockings.
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Nope, give Trapper a yu gi oh skin, replace the machete with a duel disk and give him an anime haircut + generic japanese school uniform.
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@CosmicParagon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1235730#Comment_1235730
By that logic survivors should only have 2 hooks to be sacrificed. you can't stealth/loop you way out of being hooked anyway, so who cares?
Uh, no? I'm pointing it out on a team-wide basis, not on an individual level. One player out of a team can avoid hooks but the team as a whole will always get hooked a couple times per match. Having both sides always make some progress towards their victory condition early helps make matches less one-sided.
A survivor getting killed isn't comparable to the first/second gen pop. A survivor getting killed is more comparable to the penultimate generator getting popped in terms of victory condition progress.
Don't get me wrong, I understand that it's depressing when Survivor gen progress gets ahead of your hook progress, but it really isn't the end of the match. And, even though the 27 seconds thing can be pretty shocking and makes a great headline, it's actually much more efficient for Survivors to be split up and working on several different gens. You now know where all 4 Survivors are less than thirty seconds into the match, I'd argue that's actually an advantage for the Killer and practically speaking it'll probably result in two hooks before the next gen gets popped thanks to the newfound map pressure you can exert with that information.
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@CosmicParagon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1234660#Comment_1234660
You can't pressure your way out of a generator popping in the time it takes to cross Ormond or Mother's Dwelling. Depending on Survivor spawns and items, the first generator can pop in 27 seconds, and thats AFTER the toolbox nerf
It's true that you can't realistically pressure your way out of a first gen pop, but that's just like how Survivors can't realistically stealth/loop their way out of their team getting a few hooks.
Both sides always get early progress on their objectives easily. What matters isn't so much the first/second gen/hook, what matters is the third, fourth, and fifth.
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Hillbilly is pretty well-balanced. He has very strong map pressure and can instadown, but his instadown isn't almighty and mostly relies on deadzones to work well, and his chainsaw constantly broadcasts his location which is an extreme disadvantage especially at high levels of play.
By "broken", I'll take that to mean overpowered instead of with truly broken design (IMO Plague is the most "broken" character, because she doesn't actually work to her original design), to which I would probably say Freddy.
Freddy is not totally ludicrous or unbeatable, but he IMO gets results that are too good for an extremely basic level of play right now. A Killer getting good results is fine but I would prefer a greater level of strategy and player skill be involved in the process.
As for Survivors, they're just differentriated by teachables, so there isn't really a proper answer to that QUENTIN.
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Well, Empathy is a Survivor Perk, not a Killer one, after all.
Jokes aside the skillcurve with Killer is ultimately about maintaining pressure to prevent generators from getting completed too quickly, which has an absolute butt-ton of different components to improve with. However, because a lot of people don't have the self-awareness to assess those qualities about themselves, they blame genspeeds, because they see generators popping quickly, that's why they lose matches, therefore make them slower. They don't really consider the chases they could've ended quicker, the Survivors who successfully snuck past them, the map pressure they could've exerted smarter, or the player movements they could've predicted.
I DO think aspects of the game in relation to Survivor objectives need improving however, Survivors essentially need to make mistakes for Killers to capitalise on them and exert enough pressure to stop them from genrushing- Without doing that, at the highest level of play Survivors generally have too much time against too many Killers and thus can win matches too reliably right now IMO at the highest level of play. Nuance!
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Making a Perk to specifically only counter one other Perk would be terrible game design, especially as this is such a hard counter it makes DS essentially useless.
A much better solution would just be adjusting Decisive Strike itself.
Also, uh, Rancor already exists, and I advise you equip it, it'll probably be cathartic for ya!
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The choices of where to move UI icons are really bad ones. UI design is as much an art as it is a science but I can tell you the current way Perks are displayed is FAR more friendly for people to register quickly and subconsciously the relevant information there and much easier on the eyes.
I also dislike how information like health states are minimised and the increased presence of diverse colours/faces which is very distracting. The current designs for the health state UI is actually pretty smart in how it avoids drawing your attention, but here you have several human faces staring directly at you for the entire duration of the match and our ape brains are all screaming "Hey, Claudette's looking at you, she probably wants something!".
Please don't see this as an attack, I really like the effort you clearly put into making these screenshots and it IS good UI work visually, it just has flaws design-wise especially when compared to the professional-designed UI the game already uses IMO.
The one major takeaway is that yes, we should be able to know who's playing who without needing to check a menu. The way I would solve this is just have the Survivor's monikers in greyed out letters below the player's name, so you have "DWIGHT" "CLAUDETTE" "MEG" "D. TAPP" and so on below everyone's health state display.
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Syringe doesn't need buffs, it can save your butt as long as you use it right.
If you want to "heal" right in a Killer's face, that's what Styptic Agent is for.
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This is the Lore subforum, but hopefully a mod should see this soon enough and move it.
- This has a lot of implications beyond just the range increase, as the Redeemer is set up with a pretty delicate balance with the whole chain durability stuff. I also honestly think increasing the range isn't that big a deal, there aren't that many situations where the range is what really matters.
- I agree the URs are both bad and need improvements. However, Iri coin should definitely NOT be an Exposed to all harpooned Survivors, that's way too powerful for an Ultra Rare. People already complain a lot (rightfully so IMO) about iri hatchets, this would be even stronger than iri hatchets because of Deathslinger's quickscoping and no downside. The issue with Iri coin is that it provides a 3 meter margin for error, which means you need perfect conditions for it to actually work. A better effect IMO would be harpooning a Survivor at least 2 seconds after they vault/pallet drop Exposes them for the duration of the harpoon, as that makes it realistic to pull off and provides significant Survivor counterplay. Alternatively, a totally different effect like making Deathslinger's reeling reel himself in instead of the Survivor and allowing him to phase through objects while doing so (which I really think should exist) could be used.
- Going to use "3" to talk about Hellshire Iron and break up my points. I think a totally different effect is in order because TBH I just don't like its current effect. Unbreakable chains would be far too powerful, I would suggest something like "Your chains always glow red-hot and inflict Deep Wounds immediately upon any Survivors who come in contact with them, including Survivors you harpoon. Survivors who struggle against the Redeemer while the Deathslinger is not reeling them in will cause their Deep Wounds timer to rapidly decline. If one or more Survivors are colliding with the chains when this happens, the Deep Wound penalties apply to them instead when this happens." This essentially turns the harpoon state into its own minigame where the Deathslinger player can mindgame their reeling to down Survivors even across features like pallets.
- Okay, now the actual 3, Dead Man's Switch is kinda funny because IMO, it AND Gearhead are perks that are somehow both essentially worse versions of Thrilling Tremors. IMO it should indeed just trigger on every single hook instead of being an Obsession Perk. It still wouldn't be that good IMO because BBQ + Chili can give you very similar information and more, but the genblocking might come in handy for game delay so it'd be a decent Perk.
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I doubt it seeing as Huntress' bio describes how she has close to zero empathy for anyone except little girls and isn't really aware other humans are anything other than animals. It's also worth noting Huntress unlike some other characters like Trapper or LF has zero signs of Entity torture for disobedience, and that if Huntress did understand the song's lyrics and wanted to use them as a warning for Survivors, she'd presumably be singing it instead of humming to it.
IMO the lullaby is intended to indicate that from Huntress' perspective, she's having a relaxed hunt and doesn't even have to care about potentially alerting her prey. Whereas other Killers are having the time of their lives or begrudgingly giving up their kills to the almighty hooks, Huntress just thinks this is another day at the office.
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My favourite URs are always the ones that, within reason, change a Killer's playstyle significantly. Sometimes that can be a simple effect like Wraith's URs, other times it can be more complicated.
Less liked are ones like Iridescent Head that are just strong as hell. In my opinion the meta Killer Addon setups should involve mostly Rare addons and VRs, never URs.
Least favourite are the ones that are just bad.
Sometimes there's overlap: Eg. Nurse's URs are terrible, but I like that they at least make her different, I just wish these different effects were viable.
I think the thing I lament the most is that, in my opinion, Scratched Mirror is the Addon that feels the most like what an "Ultra Rare" IMO should feel like. Don't get me wrong, I could do without those bad jumpscare myers games where I get a crappy map for him and just get looped, but it's just a totally different experience for both sides and it's a friggin' VR.
While some informational URs are fun to have, I personally think Survivors should know when I'm running an UR. Instead of "oh yay, I can keep track of gen progress" I much prefer transforming a game into a highly different experience and forcing Survivors and myself to change our playstyles.
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1232843#Comment_1232843
And killers don't have powers/perks that do the same to survivors? Stridor 3 - overpowers Iron Will 3; Plague sickness, negates Iron Will and Self-Care completely... the list goes on.
Perks countering other Perks, or Killer powers countering Perks, is not comparable to Perks hard-countering a Killer Power.
The closest comparison is Calm Spirit but that only negates an aspect of Doctor's power, not the whole thing. I also, for the record, think that Plague making healing setups damn near pointless IS actually a problem as well.
Outside of Perks another good comparison is how a specific Map setup can track Trapper's traps for the whole Survivor team extremely easily, but I also think that situation is honestly too much of a hard-counter to really be fair as well.
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The Xenomorph.
I mean, I appreciate it's not that out-there of a suggestion, but I think the Xenomorph has essentially no chance of ever coming to DbD (thanks to other game studios already having a good relationship with the Alien license) but I would really enjoy its precense.
For the Killer Power, I honestly came pretty close to making a full write-up on what I would like an Alien chapter to be, but the Killer power would boil down to one of those multi-component ones, so bear with me here (also, call it The Perfect Organism or something):
- The Struggle Phase is replaced with the Facehugger Phase- The Entity will allow a Facehugger to do its thing to a Hooked Survivor on this phase instead of initiating the Struggle Phase, which gameplay-wise means that there is no buttonmashing involved, sacrifice animations (either on hook or via EGC) are replaced with the Chestburster killing the Survivor in question, and the Survivor is marked as having a Chestburster within them for the purposes of various addon effects.
- The Alien switches between two modes, bipedal and on all fours, via the Secondary Power button. The Alien's movespeed is decreased to 105% when on all fours, has a lowered POV, and can't lunge, but raises its tail into the air and uses it for its Normal Attacks, having huge range (I would say about 4-5m), can "Vault" (climb, really) though windows very quickly, and has its TR reduced to 8 meters. While bipedal, The Alien's tail follows it around slack on the floor, roughly tracing The Alien's movements for the past few seconds, and will alert The Alien with a noise notification if a Survivor steps on it. Going between bipedal/all fours normally takes a second or so, but is practically instant if it's done shortly after your tail is stepped on or after a successful tail attack.
- The Alien's primary power function is a fairly short-ranged acid spit (10m or so) with a short chargetime/cooldown that Injures healthy Survivors or inflicts Deep Wounds on already injured Survivors. (downing DW'd survivors) Survivors facing The Alien upon spitting recieve Blindness until healed, Survivors facing away recieve Hindered for several seconds. The Alien can also spit onto objects to perform identical effects to Survivors that interact with said objects for the next 10 seconds (treating it as a "behind" hit), but with the additional effects of damaging Generators, forcing slow vaults on windows, and making Pallets break after a few seconds if they have been dropped. (if they haven't been dropped, it will still break if a survivor drops it during the acid's duration)
- The Alien by default has a TR of 20 meters, 115% movespeed, and does not have a Red Stain. Flashlights do not blind The Alien, but instead "disorient" it, which will cause it to drop carried Survivors, go back to being bipedal if it's on all fours, or prevent/cancel any acid spits for a good few seconds.
Maybe that one's not exactly ridiculous, but I think given the unlikelihood of the license being in DbD IMO and the whole sci-fi theme potentially clashing, hopefully it's somewhat along the lines of what you were thinking and was a fun concept to read.
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I think Windows of Opportunity and its Killer equivalent Xanshin Tactics are really bad Perks that could use changing, but making WoO make fake pallets worthless is way too much of a hard-counter to be healthy for the game, even though it wouldn't be overpowered.
I mean, in its most extreme example, fighting Freddy with Dream Pallets using this version of Windows would damn near entirely negate his Killer Power.
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The issue with providing unique abilities to the Survivors is that making a formerly cosmetic feature a feature that changes gameplay significantly is a really, really bad idea.
If we go back in time and do this before DbD launches, sure, it's interesting to think about. If we do this today, how many mains who paid to play as a specific character they like, and who paid to give that character specific cosmetics that they like, are going to have to drop their preferred character because they don't have a good bonus, or because their bonus doesn't gel with their playstyle?
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I already dislike that Killer's #1 BP farming tool is locked behind a paywall, now that paywall's BP bonuses go all the way up to +400% BP from the match? Jeez, no.
Are there things that can be done to reduce the grind, absolutely, but buffing the hell out of both sides' already fairly popular BP farming tools isn't the way to do it. How about instead we have things like:
-Making all the other BP increases that exist in the game actually worthwhile
-Making Survivors capable of earning BP more consistently instead of the lottery it honestly is ATM by filling out their BP activation conditions
-Allowing players to sell stuff they aren't using for a small amount of BP
-Making a higher proportion of Perks and Addons worth using so when players do spend BP the feeling of having wasted Bloodpoints is diminished and they feel like they get value for their currency more consistently
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I have no idea why you think this is a "bug"? That player just performed enough actions that earned them Bloodpoints.
A 4K also doesn't matter that much in terms of points gained. Using whatever Killer mechanics earn you Deviousness a lot, getting lots of hits and spending a lot of time in chase is all more important. By a similar token, lots of hook saves and killer pallet stuns are how Survivors can earn a bunch of BP, regardless of if they actually survive or not.
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You know what? Screw Pennywise, the Stephen King DLC we need is Children of the Corn for even more corn maps!
@Zarr0ch said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/145951/corn
I like the corn. However, I think that as people run through it, it should get trampled down
Jokes aside I think this would be a pretty good solution, give each stalk a little timer (5 seconds or something) that runs down while a Survivor is sprinting near it and if it reaches 0 the corn stalk falls apart and is gone for the rest of the trial.
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I personally think the simplest solution for dealing with junk items is selling them for BP at 10% of their actual value, and Prestiging autosells all your items/addons/offerings/perks on the respective Character.
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While there's some level of RNG in dealing with Obsession Perks, it's somewhat negligible because once you've encountered every Survivor YOU decide who to focus or not to focus. It's mostly a factor early in the match but once you get a feel for where the other Survivors are you can pretty easily keep your Obsession focused if that's what you need to do, plus Nemesis also removes all RNG from Obsession management and just lets you designate new Obsessions by deliberately getting pallet stunned.
I'd also like to note some Obsession Perks like Play With Your Food or Save The Best For Last are actually in really good places, and are pretty solid proof that the core of the Obsession mechanic doesn't actually need much changing.
Also, the entire point of Hex perks is that they're high risk, high reward. Devour Hope might get cleansed, but if it doesn't get cleansed you get to Expose everyone and potentially get free Moris, for example.
This really feels like "I don't want to deal with the core concepts of these Perks that defines them" when the core concept isn't really that much of a problem. Many of the individual Perks are underwhelming, but there are good Obsession Perks and good Hex Perks that demonstrate their respective concepts aren't inherently broken, it's the individual Perks that are problems.
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I can get behind this. The whole point of seeing what the Survivors are carrying is so a Killer can potentially strategise and things aren't thrown at them as a surprise, so the last-second switch thing is pretty much an exploit that's too janky to be in the game IMO.
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Oof, lots of replies so I don't think much of what I say here will be new or of that much value, but I'll throw my hat in the ring:
Dedicated Killer main, I play Killer almost exclusively, I also think NOED is in an unhealthy state and needs changes. I think a lot of the rationalisations here for current NOED are people being willfully stupid for tribalism's sake.
My personal change to NOED would be making the Hex Totem light up at the START of a match, but "bounce" to the furthest away Dull Totem on the map when cleansed and alert all Survivors "Hex: No One Escapes Death" when that happens, being able to do this twice before Survivors can cleanse the Perk permanently.
This creates a Devour Hope-esque "win condition" perk that's more about sending Survivors into a panicked frenzy when they discover it and forcing them to go do Totems, instead of the current "If you're losing, here, have some easy kills" Perk it currently is IMO.
Above all else, I just don't like the hypocrisy. How many of the people commenting here "well NOED is fair because survivors are so powerful" have complained about Borrowed Time or Decisive Strike in the past without realizing Survivors use the exact same reasoning for using those Perks?
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Any changes to Myers that begin with talking about he should be more fun to play is questionable IMO. He IS a fairly basic Killer who relies on M1s but in terms of fun factor he's one of the most popular Killers in the entire game, for both sides.
- I'm not sure what exactly your thought process is here? Additional vault speed is more valuable than pallet kick speed and I think in terms of game design it also makes more sense for fairness. If a Survivor successfully drops a pallet versus a Tier 3 Myers, that should be a fairly ideal scenario for them and they shouldn't recieve a lesser gameplay reward for that situation. (note that T3 Myers also already deals with looping in general better thanks to extended lunging)
- Fairly minor change that I wouldn't be entirely against, but I think the small negative feedback loop of early Myers kills resulting in less overall Evil in the match is a good thing that can stay in the game as opposed to changing it, even if it's very minor.
- Pretty sure he can essentially already only Stalk one Survivor at once, right? IIRC the way it works with multi-stalks is that the evil drain is the same and is just distributed between both of them. I don't actually think Stalking should grant Undetectable, as this would remove the level of uncertainty mid-chase if Myers is either stalking you or actually chasing you, which IMO would be a big loss.
- Being able to switch Obsessions via Stalking would make a fantastic Very Rare addon but makes zero sense as an inherent ability. Giving Myers an x2 BP multiplier also makes no sense whatsoever.
- Don't really get the point of this gameplay-wise, and while I kinda like it thematically for Myers this undeniably gives him more similarities to Ghostface that we could do without. Would prefer something like an Addon that grants him Undetectable while near a window, and increases his stalk distance/stalk efficiency at range.
- I would've liked some Killers to have animations like this too, but there's clearly reasons (as listed above) why they don't so I'd just give up on that dream.
Pretty much the two issues I have with Myers are:
-Getting out of EWI is a little too difficult in high-Rank play and it often feels like whether you can do it quickly or not is more luck-based than anything
-While his are far better than a lot of other Killers, many of his addons are horrible.
The latter could be addressed via addon changes and the former could be addressed in a variety of ways that don't actually involve that many changes to Myers (and could even be fixed via modifying map design to lower the presence of good anti-stalking loops).
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If you want Pig traps to be changed it should not be a straight nerf, Pig's an extremely mid-tier if not low mid tier Killer who does not need a giant nerfhammer.
It IS true that, depending on map RNG, where you get RBT'd, and if the Pig packs Tampered Timer (and probably either crate of gears or jigsaw's sketch), surviving the RBT can be entirely up to luck and you physically don't have enough time to search every box. Is that a BS scenario that shouldn't happen, I think so, buut I'm not entirely sure if that is/isn't what really happened to you and Survivors CAN always 99% gens for a bit to give you extra time.
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@PigNRun said:
Much easier way to boost these perks without making them "unfun".
Surge:
- Remove the basic attack condition. If you really are downing people as much as making this Surge "OP" during a 3-gen, then you probably wouldnt need Surge in the first place. Plus, Devs literally said they want Killers to defend certain areas of the map (aka 3-gen), so at this point they might as well make a perk that makes it a bit more manageable.
Mindbreaker:
- Remove the 50% limitation. Make Survivors choose whether to wait for their exhaustion or focus on the objective. Simple.
Cruel Limits:
- This is the one Im not sure. People have suggesting blocking all vaults in the map, but I disagree with that. At the same time, it definitely needs something, since it will only trigger 5 times during the match completely out of the Killer's control.
Maybe I should rephrase my thoughts with Surge: I don't like how it's a generator "delay" Perk that mostly functions for defending gens in a situation where you're already in the best possible situation for generator defense. Plus, there are other Perks like Pop or even Surveillance that IMO fit a 3-gen strategy better anyway. (and are versatile perks that have uses outside of 3genning)
I think having Surge only apply to one gen at a time removes the huge situational potential the Perk has, which is what can justify removing the cooldown and making it work consistently on every single down. I generally prefer consistent Perks with some specialisation to a Perk that's generally bad but might be really, really strong once in a blue moon.
This might well be my bias showing though, because I've always wanted a Perk that damages generators automatically for me to save time, and Surge ended up bittersweet thanks to that because it's so close to what I wanted that kind of Perk to look like.
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You unlock them for 100 Dwight, Meg, Claudette and Jake kills respectively, they're those Survivor's faces for Bubba's mask. It is extremely old and it's been with Bubba ever since he launched.
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I would change Ivory and Ebony Moris to the following activation conditions:
If you have hooked a Survivor twice, you may kill them by your own hand. If the Survivor team as a whole has reached a total of 5 hook states worth of hook progress, you may kill any Survivors by your own hand. Works for 1/unlimited Survivors.
Secondly, I'd add two universal changes to Moris:
-Survivors who are Mori'd ALSO recieve Bloodpoints, like the Killer does, to make it a more mutually beneficial "woah cool finisher" thing instead of a saltfest like it often is now
-Being moriable is now signified as a Status Effect called Marked for Death, so you have fair warning you might be mori'd
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I think the issue with Survivors using DS like an invincibility powerup is that it puts Killers in a really sucky situation.
Had a Hillbilly game ages back where I brought this up in postchat (everyone except the offending DS user were really lovely, fantastic players), a person made a DS play next to a hooked Survivor on a hill (with the two other Survivors nearby). I pointed out in postchat that if I was going to play "optimally" it would be to sit there for a minute waiting for DS to run out, essentially forcing me into camping which was a REALLY bad situation for everyone. I decided in the moment to simply leave to go chase another Survivor to keep the game going instead of stalling it, but I think situations like that show how slugging DS users, which it DOES work practically speaking, isn't a solution that's good for the game.
The locker thing is IMO a rework that should be universal (I would like it if Survivors found in lockers could be "thrown" out of the locker into the Downed state so shenanigans like DS couldn't work), but it is definitely a janky aspect of Decisive Strike.
I personally think larger changes to the perk beyond that are necessary though, as it's EXTREMELY popular and IMO is still a problematic Perk. My personal suggested change would be an infinite duration (with a minimum duration wherein it can't be negated) and the Perk is disabled when another Survivor is hooked. Survivors can make even bigger DS plays than before by getting Killers into massive minute+ chases only to get punished afterwards with a DS, Killers maneuver around it via methods more interesting than slugging and waiting a full minute AND will only be hit with DS if they are actually hooking the same Survivor twice. I think it'd still be a solid perk that has a decent chance of you getting use out of but is less universally useful.
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Nea.
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This is on the console manufacturers, not Behaviour, I'm afraid. Online-only games requiring an artificial subscription of sorts thanks to console manufacturers sucks, but it's a regrettably standardised aspect of console gaming.
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I think MYC having no cooldown anymore would be okay. The current state of it results in one of those sticky situations no-one likes where the Rank 1 version of a perk can sometimes be better than the higher levelled version, and I think making that change wouldn't so much be a buff to MYC as it would be patching a hole in its activation conditions IMO.
If BHVR were really worried and didn't want MYC to potentially become dominant they could always put in the stipulation "Make Your Choice can only affect one Survivor at a time", so with this hypothetical change new unhooks would switch the Exposed status to the most recent rescuer and reset the Exposed timer, to prevent MYC users from getting chain downs in certain niche scenarios.
Either way I don't think MYC would be too out of control and would still be a relatively balanced perk, it'd just be a nice QoL change I'm all for.
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@illusion said:
I think there would be too much they would have to rework for that. Plus it wouldn't really fit with the lore. Why would a spider care about sacrificing people the Entity? I think it would just web them up and save them for food. How would a wolf hang people on hooks? I get that it COULD be done, with reworks, but that development time would be better spent elsewhere.
I think The Entity just exerting its will on a creature works as an explanation.
Anyway, a non-humanoid Killer is cool for variety and all, but requires far more development work. Even Demogorgon took a lot more animation work than normal for a Killer that isn't that different from a standard humanoid.
It also doesn't sit right with me for the game's theming. Something like a werewolf would lean far too much into the cheese factor for me.
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@I_Eat_Worms said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1224503#Comment_1224503
so, spirit is an onryo because she is inspired by them but oni isnt an oni because he is inspired by them.
hey guys, spirit is inspired by the onryo and therefore is an onryo, because she looks like one, and her story is her getting turned into something that looks like one by the entity
hey guys, oni is inspired by the oni, but he isnt actually an oni, because even though he looks and acts like one, and was transformed into one just like spirit, he isnt actualy an oni because he just isnt.
and the story does specifically tell us that the spirit is actually an onryo and invincible, even though she seems to scream louder than other killers when getting hit by wood
the story also tells us that oni isnt an immortal demon, because he looks like one and acts like one therefore he just isnt, because well he just goes "oof" like freddy when getting hit by wood. also being 10x faster while breaking pallets with one swing instead of two and being able to ######### punch doors without a weapon is further proof he is not an oni at all
Oni has an explanation that isn't "he's a demon", though he obviously is inspired fom onis. Spirit ticks every box for being a vengeful ghost of someone dead. You're also REALLY hyperfocusing on defining Oni as an actual Oni when IMO it doesn't actually change much.
Oni is capable of superhuman stuff like punching down a door, he's ludicrously strong, really not debating that.
I also have no clue why you're bringing up the sounds Killers make when they get hit by pallets? I just made a snarky remark that ghosts getting physically hit by pallets makes no sense and is probably an Entity-forced condition of the trials for gameplay purposes. Sorry, I don't think stabbing or punching a ghost would work.
About the only Killer I listed that IMO is on shaky ground above Oni would be Myers, but that's because I'm counting the Michael Myers Factor, whatever you want to call it. At some point you have to take Loomis at his word and admit he's clearly evil incarnate.
@PrettyFaceKate said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1224503#Comment_1224503
Concerning the second and the last sections, if we go by how their power works in their backstories and ignoring the special rules of the trials, as you said, the issue is that there's no evidence that the Nurse or the Spirit could be capable of hurting anyone while in their ghostly form outside of the Entity's realm. Also, there's no established notion of what the 'ghost rules' are and how threatening ghosts are in the characters' backgrounds. The Nurse was presumably alive when she carried out the massacre at the asylum. The Spirit never killed anyone in our reality and, even if she manifests herself with the characters of an Onryo, that only happened in the Entity's realm, not our own.
The only one that interacted with our reality while he himself was something else and somewhere else, is Freddy as we know from his franchise. We also know that one needs to grow frightened of him before he's capable of hurting them. He's effectively a dead child molester and I can hardly picture any of the in-universe killers feeling remotely threatened by someone like him, even in their lives before being taken by the Entity. He might get away with not being hurt because he dwells in the dream world, but he also would be unable to hurt any of them because he's hardly a scary figure.
Nurse's backstory mentions that the ambulance transporting her away from Crotus Penn mysteriously crashed and Spirit's backstory IMO implies she killed her father before being transported to The Entity's realm seeing as a "pact was made". I think given some other references like Hag and Oni a case can be made that these Killers have indeed killed outside of The Entity's realm before being brought there via stints of using their supernaturally-imbued powers, even if it was presumably The Entity that granted these abilities.
Freddy IS the only fleshed-out example we know of to draw references from, we can't say for certain how Spirit/Nurse would act outside of Trials as supernatural forces, but as long as we agree they can fight in the first place, and can't be defeated with physical force, that's my logic. Could Spirit pull every trick shown off in, say, The Grudge series of movies, maybe, maybe not, IMO it doesn't matter much in the rankings.
As for Freddy needing his victims to be afraid to fight them, I'm honestly unsure regarding that so not sure I can speak much on it. I'll assume he CAN fight Killers without them needing to be terrified seeing as Freddy vs Jason is often cited. I do think there's a reasonable chance some of his fights would end with his opponent just grabbing him, waking up in that moment, then easily killing him, but because of the fuzziness and potential of his power I just went with the compromise of putting him high up, but not quite at the top.
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@I_Eat_Worms said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1213649#Comment_1213649
well if spirit is an "onryo" because she looks like one and oni is an "oni" because he looks like one and that's his name, then oni would probably be stronger since he looks like he could rip her in half both gameplay (higher speed and his ability is meant to one shot) and appearance (he is like 3 feet bigger both height and width)
Spirit and Oni aren't exactly comparable at all. I call Spirit an Onryo because that's her direct inspiration in every single way, that's very clearly the creature of folklore she's intended to represent.
Oni is not actually an Oni. He's a demented "samurai" who was CALLED an Oni and has manifested a curse that caused him to take on physical properties akin to an Oni and manifested his rage, but he is not an actual demon (even if he fights like one, which is why I called him a "demon" in my original rankings- but he is not a literal oni) and that's very clearly established. (also, even if he was an oni... honestly wouldn't change his position in my list. The Michael Myers factor is just too strong and the rest of the Killers I placed that high are there because of supernatural properties)
The reason why I rank Spirit/Nurse as the highest Killers is because I assume they are playing by the rules of being ghosts, with Spirit being specific as an Onryo and Nurse being a more generic Western inspired ghost. In both of these scenarios, it doesn't matter how physically strong you are, you can't fight back physically against a supernatural force like them. Ripping someone's metaphysical manifestation in half is probably cathartic, (if you can grab them in the first place) but it's very unlikely to actually accomplish anything.
Unless we invoke Entity shenanigans (which is presumably also how pallets affect nurse/spirit, last I checked ghosts don't usually care when wood falls on their "head") but I specified that if Killers had supernatural powers beyond the trials, such as freddy, I'd run off how they worked there without assuming they'd work by the same restrictions they do in Trials. So, no Entity shenanigans to try and make the fights fair.
Obviously, having the top two positions being "they win because they're ghosts lol" is a little unsatisfying and feels cheap, but I think it's still true.
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IMO skins are generally canon, but need to be carefully considered based on descriptions. For example:
Skins like Vigo's Marauder are probably canon, BUT that doesn't mean Jake actually worked with and knew Vigo. That's just a skin resembling some other Survivor in the Fog.
Standard Survivor skins can be explained via the typical routes of acquiring everything else, it's stuff the Survivors have scrounged. The Fog is established to replicate things from previous inputs and to be manipulated by memories, so Survivors remembering an outfit they used to wear could cause them to stumble across it. Same goes for regular Killer outfits like a lot of Legion's.
Stuff like the Serum skins were likely the aftermath of the Killers being experimented on by The Alchemist, but The Entity would've reverted the effects seeing as it only produces the blight substance every now and then, and the Killers would've probably been in pretty rough shape if The Entity just let them run dry of serum. (the example I often cite here is that Trapper's serum skin looks WAY younger indicating this happened early into his newfound career) However, our modern Survivors likely never saw the Killers' serum-ised forms.
However, there are some skins that IMO are just for fun, like Trapper's strongman skin and so on. IF the description justifies why this would exist canonically, then it's canon, but some skins are very clearly meaningless and that's okay too.
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"Entry 12,780,452
The Entity's gotten mad at me again. I tried to kill a survivor without a mori and it got all cranky and impaled ANOTHER hook through my right shoulder. It's so inconsiderate sometimes, I swear >:(
I keep telling it that trying to handle beartraps without proper motor function is extremely dangerous, slow and ineffective, and it could always torture me psychologically once in a while if it really wants to, but I guess it's just happy with EVERY Survivor escaping nowadays! I swear, there are sometimes I kill all the Survivors it gives me and I still haven't met my "quota", and other times when I don't kill anyone and it's fine! I think this spider jerk is just making all this up as it goes along.
And does IT try to look inwards as to what it might be doing wrong?! Noooooo! I can't count the amount of times I've seen a survivor ON A HOOK still being able to hold its tendrils back from sacrificing it, I mean seriously?! This is supposed to be a TEAM EFFORT but I always feel like I'm being held responsible for everything.
Oh, I'm sorry I forgot to give an intro this time, diary, I guess I'm just mad. You're always here to help me cool off, though! You and the ink for this thing are worth every Bloodpoint!"
Okay, even though that was satirical, I wouldn't mind a Benedict Baker-esque perspective from the Killer's POV. IMO some avenues would be:
-If a new original Killer is a Survivor turned Killer, some kind of log entry like Baker's would be nice
-Legion getting some audio logs or similar of their early days in the Entity's realm
-The Archives covering the early memories of a Killer in the Entity's realm
However, I would like to note that a straight-up diary entry like I portrayed above wouldn't really work as the Entity presumably likes its Killers as dehumanised as they can be while still being effective. I imagine it'd gently discourage keeping proper records to try and maintain their humanity.
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Iron Will is the obvious issue with this. I actually think Perks like this would be good additions to the game, but in its current state it doesn't do enough.
I would suggest something like:
Pressing the Active Ability Button while
Injured andstanding still activates the Perk for 25 seconds.While the Perk is active, your Grunts of Pain and Breathing are reduced to 0%, you become immune to the Killer's aura-reading effects, and you only bleed while sprinting. Upon activating this Perk, all current Scratch Marks or blood trails you have remaining on the map immediately fade. If you are suffering from the Deep Wounds status effect, its timer is paused entirely for the duration. A Little Patience will not expire while you are remaining still and engaging in no actions.
[I'd also probably make it an exhaustion Perk, so standard exhaustion stuff goes here]
Don't think it would be meta but I think like Head On it could be a viable Exhaustion perk for different playstyles which I think the game needs more of. I REALLY think this game could use an Exhaustion Perk that helps with stealth.
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Not sure if this counts as a true removal, but as a Killer main I'm glad they removed and replaced Hex: Ruin. I'm sure that's an extremely uncontroversial opinion.
If that doesn't count, I'll settle for removing the ability to use Exhaustion perks multiple times in the same chase.
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Fire Up is a REALLY difficult Perk to think of good changes for but after some deliberation I guess I'd make two changes:
- Procs both on Generator repairs AND Hex totems being cleansed
- In addition to all current effects the buff also affects movement speed during attack cooldowns. This means normal attack blood wiping but perhaps also things like Billy chainsaw swipes, Huntress hatchet recoveries, ecetera.
Wake Up's also a bit weird but maybe on top of revealing your aura when opening an Exit Gate, once you open an Exit Gate it produces a notification for all Survivors (like the exit gate sirens going off again).
Or, if you want to go crazy with it, this just came to me: Once per trial, you can defy The Entity blocking environmental features.
That means for blocked windows you can vault through as normal only once, you can walk through Blood Warden if you kept this perk's charge for the whole trial, if Corrupt Intervention or Thrilling Tremors blocks a gen you can tap the gen to remove said blockage, ecetera.
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@AshleyWB said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1223439#Comment_1223439
Just because generators make a hotspot for killer v Survivor interaction doesn't mean it's the golden and only way by any means that is bettered by nothing else.
You don't see generators in a 1st person shooters multiplayer to make the objective portion of the map be more active for both teams. You get different models, domination zones, flags, bomb sites. That's because there are so many ways to force player v enemy interaction. Even Deathgarden did it differently from making Survivors cash in their blood at a blood post.
I think the game would be a lot more fun more often without generators. If it was a game based around survival for players then it would remove a lot of the frustration there is with teammates being useless or a liability to the team.
Surviving a timer would be far easier to balance than it is to address gen times everytime you release an update and tweak some things.
People shouldn't be shaming new ideas due to "how will they balance that" arguments. I am pretty sure generators will still be the main objective in 5 years time but there is no harm in suggesting changes which are good for the game.
There are indeed more ways to force enemy/player interaction but you NEED to force it. In a game where one team is incapable of fighting back and the asymmetrical solo player is a powerhouse however, you essentially require some kind of environment where the team needs to metaphorically stick their hand in the oven and expose themselves to risk. Comparing it to first-person shooters isn't really a good one at all, I would invoke other asymmetrical games. (for some reason Spy Party springs to mind even though that's a very different game)
Surviving a timer I would argue is actually harder to balance in a game where one team is incapable of fighting back and is hiding from another player. You need to come up with a way to force interaction despite the objective being hiding, whilst still being fair and fun, and it would take a LOT of work to make that possible. I would say that's harder to design than an asymmetrical stealth MP game where the "stealth" team need to break cover at some point, as opposed to trying to figure out how to make the cover less absolute whilst giving both sides a fair chance.
I would also argue it wouldn't really solve issues of "my team sucks", as if several of your teammembers die early that's still a huge disadvantage, as someone being found has a higher likelihood of being you. Even if you hate Generators, you have to admit that walking up to them and holding M1 IS something essentially anyone can do and it's a fairly intuitive objective to take care of that means one bad player can still contribute to the team.
I understand if my post came across as harsh (I even thought to myself "eh, maybe I'm being too condescending in this post?") but if someone's going to put zero effort and say "remove generators" without taking a second to think about it and its ramifications I don't think it deserves much of an in-depth response, especially when their thread really can be summed up as "I want more killer-survivor interaction, therefore we should remove the mechanic that makes that happen".
Maybe my original reply was too mean-spirited, but I would've been a lot more receptive to hear this out even if it was just "I don't know how you would balance this, but I don't like generators" instead of the obviously terrible idea of just replacing Generators with a 15 minute timer.
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I think Enduring is already good enough and it damages Decisive's potential in a way I don't think is hugely fair. I would much prefer Decisive Strike itself get changed so it's fair, instead of making an already great Perk a hard counter to it.
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I, too, enjoy hiding in the same locker for 15 minutes, getting out occasionally to avoid stillness crows, or hiding behind a rock at the corner of the map while the Killer searches aimlessly.
You're right that people like Killer-Survivor interaction, you know what game mechanic exists to cause Killer-Survivor interaction? Generators.
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It appears as if canonically, they "set up" in their respective Trial Grounds and use it as the equivalent of the Survivor's campfires. Killer Addons often paint a decent picture of what they do between Trials.
I imagine the way Killers end up meeting each other is, if they decide to, they could leave their Trial Grounds and wander through the Fog to travel to other areas. The Entity probably doesn't care as long as they don't shirk the Trials, and they don't make any progress on a potential escape. Even though a lot of the Killers are placated by the Trials I imagine they eventually get restless, so The Entity probably lets them wander if that's what they need to avoid distraction come the next Trial. However, The Entity definitely doesn't want them mingling too much, heartless murderers and friends don't exactly mix, and many Killers would pose an active risk to each other.
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@Raulillo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1223344#Comment_1223344
Well as all RNG based mechanics It doesn't need to be an optimal start every time for it being balanced. I agree that carrying 1 trap is not useful if you are going to play a "defend the territory" trapper, that doesn't mean he has only that playstyle neither, you can fake or commit to nullify a lot of loops by using your power mid chase. His potential is pretty decent and I consider that is usually fair when a trapper wins. Also the only problem I have seen when playing as him is when survivors know where all my traps are. Even in that situation it's still pretty good.
2 traps stock would be the only thing i would add him for balance. RNG is part of how he has to be played and gives him an interesting feeling because every match you have to improvise new trap spots and reinvent yourself to win.
It's not about "well, my start isn't 100% optimal", it's more that Survivor self-escaping from traps is far too random, and depending on map placement RNG it's quite common for several of your Traps to be essentially unusable because they're all the way in a random corner of the map that you physically don't have the time to go visit in order to retrieve them. A lot of people forget that by default Trapper has SIX traps in total to work with, but he effectively has 4 or even three by default because of this RNG factor.
Carrying multiple traps is not about defending territory (though that's a large part of Trapper play), it's about speed. Playing Trapper without the ability to carry multiple traps slows down your trap placement massively and generally guts his potential.
While map placement does have to be RNG, it doesn't have to be as random as it currently is. (just changing it so traps spawn around the center of maps, instead of spawning in areas that could potentially become deadzones the Killer can't afford to visit would be fine) Survivor self-escapes have no real reason to be RNG (aside from giving the Luck stat a purpose but I would really want Luck to just be overhauled) and IMO should just be a flat timer like 7.5 seconds influenced by addons/perks.
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@Raulillo said:
Trapper is one of the best balanced killers tbh.
Don'r expect this to happen in the near future.
This isn't really true. Many players would probably tout Hillbilly as the overall most balanced Killer in the game.
Trapper IS better than many players give him credit for but he has numerous problems that have existed for ages (Sack addons are essentially mandatory, escaping beartraps involves too much RNG, beartrap placement at the start of the match involves too much RNG are the 3 issues most Trapper mains will list).
Anyway, I'm totally fine with Trapper triggering his own traps, it makes sense as a downside. Hag isn't a fair comparison as she's SUPPOSED to use her traps in chase for functions like that thanks to her 110 speed, the Hag needs to actively participate with a trap for it to damage Survivors, and her traps are more quickly disabled by Survivors. Hag doesn't totally lock down an area like Trapper can.
I would like an addon (something like a Rare/Very Rare) for Trapper that allows him to walk through his own traps but it should not be inherent.