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Tutorials would probably be my first bet. We have some extremely basic ones that teach the really barebones basics, so I don't see why you couldn't have some tutorials to demonstrate some elements of basic theory for playing. For this specific topic:
For Survivors, a tutorial about what to do if you are being camped or one of your teammates is being camped. This could cover:
- Hook gymnastics, how to do it, what it means
- When you should designate yourself as the hook rescuer and when you should ignore it to focus on generators (there's rarely much point to multiple survivors going for a hook save)
- The fact that Survivors will last 2 minutes on a hook if they are left there, a lot of time to work on Generators
- How saving everyone is noble, but that nobody will survive if objectives aren't focused on and sometimes a death or two is unpreventable
For Killers, a tutorial on what your strategy should be after hooking a Survivor (and why camping them is a bad plan). That could cover:
- How and why you need to keep pressure on Generators, not necessarily hooks
- Why and when it's a good idea to defend hooks
- The fact that Survivors will actually die faster from being rescued then re-hooked, rather than waiting out hook timers
- The concept of applying "pressure" to the Survivor team and ensuring as few of them as possible are working on objectives- Don't spend too much time trying to secure one kill
- That The Entity much prefers an entire team living but terrorised, over a team where one guy was sacrificed but the other three never saw you
All about communication IMO. Some people are always gonna camp, but I think one can lower the amount of total campers by educating Survivors on how to counter it, and educating Killers on how its a playstyle that doesn't have much merit if they want to improve their own skills. (because, ultimately, camping in Dead by Daylight IS an intuitive way to play the game)
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BBQ's biggest strength for me personally over perks like Whispers or Nurse's is getting a feel for the pace of the game and what Survivors are doing, and it gives you that info when it's most important to have it IMO. Survivor locations aren't just handy for finding your next chase target. You can often figure out if they're planning to go for a save or planning to work on a gen, and if so, which one?
Of course, Bloodpoints help too. I still think I'd use it a reasonable amount without them, though.
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When people are toxic... About the fact that they did well, or at least think they did well. I understand getting salty about losing, but why would anyone get salty about winning?
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I certainly would like to see Fixated buffed. I'm not 100% about this exact change though. It wouldn't be overpowered in the current Survivor perk meta, but compared to other Perks, being able to see other survivor's scratch marks from any distance might make it essentially a straight upgrade to something like Bond. Maybe you see other Survivor's scratch marks in a limited range?
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"Throwing hate speeches after a game" somehow being a Killer specific issue definitely takes the bad take cake.
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@AChaoticKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1910457#Comment_1910457
that rework favors swf (actually just survivors in general) so much it's not even funny, the obvious issue with your rework is both the fact that it only lasts for a few totems instead of them all, it also shouldn't tell survivors that it's noed because it hasn't affected the game yet.
it's extremely easy to cleanse 3 or even 4 totems by yourself as you pass by, survivors just don't do that. you say it's a waste of time but it gives you points and helps prevent noed. if all survivors just cleansed totems as they see them the perk wouldn't be an issue except when there is a really good totem spot but survivors are too focused on doing gens and ignoring anything not related to saves, gens, active hexs, and healing.
my point do bones IS a valid argument but survivors are legit too focused on the main things to care, noed is never a problem against survivors actively doing totems just run undying and you will see how often survivors cleanse all totems when they care to do so.
A Hex taking three Totems to cleanse (and at different times) is IMO pretty powerful for a Hex, especially for Killers that choose to focus on defending their Totems or are inherently good at it. Hexes like Devour Hope or Ruin can already get a lot of mileage, assuming the totem RNG isn't godawful.
Dulls giving you BP is not a good reason to cleanse them for the purposes of winning the Trial and IMO should be considered irrelevant. Especially for the side of the game that's team-based, where taking risks for extra Bloodpoints is a potentially selfish decision.
I also brought up why cleansing Dulls honestly isn't a good idea for countering NoeD. It doesn't even necessarily rely on assuming there's a god-tier hidden totem spawn on the map, all it takes is one totem spawn that isn't in an area with a generator and it can easily slip under the radar. It might be found, but if it takes more than ~half the match for a Survivor to stumble across it, there's decent odds they might not have the luxury of wasting time on cleansing it.
If one guy's on the hook, someone's going for a rescue, and another guy's getting chased (if the Killer is playing well, that's going to be the case for several minutes worth of a match), the remaining Survivor saying "Now's a good time to go cleanse some dull totems" is the definition of a bad teammate and that single decision might throw the entire match.
Survivors are focused on objectives and staying alive because that's how games are won. It's not a problem with how Survivors play, and it shouldn't be framed that way. The closest Killer comparison is probably pallet/breakable wall destruction. Sometimes, you should be expected to do it, but expecting you to break ALL the time is unreasonable, and Killers who try to do that are going to start throwing games.
Survivor's objective centric gameplay cannot be simultaneously overpowered, but also be playing the game "wrong" in some way. Surely the right move is to change the game in some way to modify that optimal strategy, instead of just saying that Survivors should change how they play?
On a somewhat related note to the future of the game, what I consider perhaps the biggest issue with "just do bones" is that IMO totem spawn RNG is too Survivor-sided on many maps already, finding totems should be harder than it currently is right now, not a mechanic used as a foundation to justify current perk balance.
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Making Nurse's lunges even shorter to raise her skillfloor even higher feels like increasingly blocking the door to newer players from trying what's already perhaps the most intimidating Killer to learn in the entire game.
Blink recovery speed addons don't exactly bring old Nurse back. The true "old Nurse" was Omega Blink Nurse, which is largely dead and buried.
I'm sure lots of experienced Survivor and Nurse players have a lot of decent thoughts about the Nurse and how she could be improved, and I'm sure she's not perfect, but I think she's in a decent state. A strong Killer, but Survivors are usually okay with losing against her if it's clear the Nurse they're facing is a very good one, unlike Killers like Spirit a lot more people find infuriating to play against.
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I can agree with buffing Boil Over, and I also agree that caution should be taken as it's kind of a dangerous Perk to potentially put in an overpowered spot. Personally though, I would prefer giving Boil Over something new, as I'm not sure there's much of a future in solely buffing the numbers behind what it does already.
What would that be? Honestly, not sure, but I'll spitball some possibilities:
- While in the Dying State or being carried by the Killer, all Pallets within X meters are highlighted for all Survivors.
- Slows the Killer's pick-up animation by X%.
- The Killer suffers X% increased missed attack penalty while carrying you. (or, MAYBE missed attacks apply a flat extra bonus to the wiggle meter? I'm leaning to the former idea though, as I prefer Mad Grit countering this, than this countering Mad Grit, as Killer perks usually hard counter Survivor perks and not the other way around)
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The Plague changes on the whole seems to be nerfs that I don't understand the necessity of or reasoning behind. Infected hooks are especially confusing to me. (Wouldn't it just allow Plagues to vomit on a nearby hook after downing a Survivor, then impale them on the hook in order to skip the usual infection warmup they do in chases?)
I don't agree with nerfing Infectious Fright, I think it's hit a Nurse's Calling-esque spot of being powerful, but not out of control. Allowing Killers to snowball is the entire point of the Perk, and yeah, if the Survivor team's god looper manages to stop a 4K slug, but the Killer downs them with Infectious to reveal the others again... I think that's okay. Those are the scenarios where Infectious is supposed to excel and give the Survivors a hard time in stopping a slugfest.
Corrupt has little to nothing to do with 3-genning. If a Killer REALLY wants to 3-gen, and the map has spawned Generators close enough to allow for a 3-gen... A Killer can make that happen. Unless the Survivors have used a Shroud of Binding to spawn in a group, have brought multiple Brand New Parts, AND the 3-gen spot also happens to be the 3 gens furthest from the Killer, Corrupt Intervention really does not help a 3-gen strategy. Killers just need to defend the gens with map pressure and they can reach their 3-gen destination quickly enough with or without Corrupt. I highly disagree with nerfing it as right now it's an important and reasonably powerful gen delay perk that helps provide some solid diversity in its category.
Black Incense being reworked is reasonable, but making it an addon all about Corrupt Purge feels a bit silly when Iri Seal is supposed to be the Corrupt Purge-centric Addon while Black Incense is more the Vile Purge side of the Plague's power. That aside your suggestion feels a bit lame for an UR addon especially with its extra downside, even though the idea of a survivor starting the trial infected IS a cool thing a Plague addon could do.
I'm not sure why you feel Vile Emetic really needs a change at all. The effect isn't super appealing to me, even though I can understand why it might be worth running, but mostly I'm just confused as to why it's replacing what's generally considered a solid but not out of control addon.
You'll have to tell me what you're trying to achieve with Exorcism Amulet because it's flying over my head. Blindness is considered a status effect that isn't very useful already, so why would I want to blind someone when I've downed them of all times?
Limestone Seal could absolutely use a change (I really don't like it when addons have 3 clones of each other between rarities that have a stacking identical effect, especially when one of them is Common) and giving Plague a Bloodpoint-earning Addon makes sense for consistency. BP addons are unfortunately godawful but that's a seperate issue.
Your description of Rubbing Oil is confusing. I assume you are just alluding to nerfing its effect slightly? If so, why?
I don't mean to come off as hostile or anything. I think above all else you should try to talk about your reasoning/intents behind your suggested changes to help other people understand why you think this would put Plague in a better spot for the game.
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I'll bite for the Survivors.
Lawful Good
Claudette is generally good-natured (one of her teachables is Empathy for crying out loud) and appears to be fairly lawful in her actions.
Tapp is verbatim described as "one of the good guys" in his bio, and is a cop. Pretty open and shut.
Kate is almost sickeningly benevolent and espouses the virtues of "faith and family" in her songs.
Adam is also a generally good person whose life follows what is essentially the real-life, modern equivalent of the perfect Lawful Good paladin.
Zarina isn't just a good person, but is specifically motivated by injustice. She is willing to work outside the bounds of the law to expose that injustice, but she clearly lives by serious personal moral codes (which can absolutely count as "lawful" even if someone technically isn't law abiding) and holds other people and institutions to them.
Felix cares a fair bit about other people, and the idea of responsibility and obligation is a pretty large part of his character.
Neutral Good
Quentin is demonstrated in Nightmare on Elm Street (2010) to be a pretty decent person with a strong sense of morality and empathy. He doesn't really align himself with or against the establishment, though.
Jane appears to be a decent person, but seems more neutral than chaotic or lawful in her outlook as she mostly seems concerned with working alongside the rules of TV/radio for her own benefit and the benefit of others, not trying to change it or aligning herself with them.
Nancy: Haven't seen Stranger Things, but this is my best guess based on the knowledge I do have. Nancy takes many actions with benevolent/good intentions, but doesn't seem to align herself as lawful/chaotic. (note: I wouldn't be surprised if Stranger Things had some kind of Alignment joke related to her or Steve, though)
Chaotic Good
Nea's lore, especially her Tome V content, makes it blindingly obvious she's Chaotic Good, even if the people who stereotypically play her are the definition of chaotic evil.
Meg is absolutely a good person, but also described with a rebellious streak in her bio. By the time she was snatched by The Entity that was being channeled into track running, but she was still definitely a loose cannon type.
Bill might not seem like Chaotic material, but he has a lot of clear trust issues with authority in extra material like The Sacrifice comics. Him being a Good character is basically indisputable, though.
Jeff is a rock fan with a heart of gold. I could definitely see him in other categories but I think Chaotic Good probably suits him best.
Steve: Haven't watched Stranger Things, so this is my best guess based on the knowledge I have of his character. He goes out of his way to help others, but also posesses other qualities one wouldn't usually associate with a heroic person.
Yui Made a living in illegal street races in defiance of her father, but also inspired and helped a lot of people along the way.
Cheryl is pretty caring, but is also prone to some serious vengeful streaks that IMO classify her as in opposition to law/authority.
Élodie has a history of wanting to defy boundaries, go where she isn't supposed to, etc, but also appears to be good-natured and truly just wanted to try and save her parents.
Lawful Neutral
Dwight shows obedience to people in authority, but seems to be a survivor, not an altruist. You could argue his teachables might be more Good, but I think "I need you to survive so I can survive!" makes it clear it's about the mutual interest in co-operation, not because he's a bleeding heart.
Neutral
Laurie is tough to place but I think she fits True Neutral- Based specifically on the Halloween - Halloween 2018 timeline. (of course, laurie in DbD is specifically from the first movie, but I am assuming here that if DbD laurie and mike were not snatched by The Entity, Halloween 2018 would've happened) Laurie is willing to break or bend the law if necessary to fight back against Myers, but she doesn't seem to have much of an ideological opinion for or against authority. She also shows a lot of concern for the safety of other people, but isn't quite a heroic or altruistic personality, and is very much concerned about her own self-preservation as much as other people. (note: I'm also going with the modern 5e interpretation of "neutral" as the alignment most average people without much ideological concern fit into. the weirder True Neutral from older editions definitely wouldn't fit)
Chaotic Neutral
Jake is fairly rebellious but doesn't give any indication of being a particularly good or bad person.
Feng Min had her entire life path was created out of rebelling against her parents and she, much like Jake, seems to mostly be a self-reliant type who doesn't help others too much, but doesn't get in their way much either.
David does go out of his way to help friends or family members, but that's generally to be expected for a neutral character. He is also known for picking fights with people who don't really deserve it (his bio mentions a potential rugby career was caught short by attacking a referee) and he's definitely not a very lawful person.
Ash might constantly be fighting against Evil and be the saviour of humanity, but the guy's not exactly a boy scout himself.
Chaotic Evil
Ace lives outside the law and the only rule he seems to respect is paying up when he loses a bet. (and even then, he's stated in his bio to be in debt to loan sharks and being a conman) While Ace isn't a moustache-twirling supervillain and apparently a fun guy to hang out with, being designated as "Evil" in alignment is all about being selfish, and Ace almost certainly qualifies.
Unsurprisingly, most of them fall into the Good side of the spectrum, at least by my estimation.
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I think as an alternative, it's possible Victor is genetically female, but deformities resulted in an indeterminate sex and Victor was named and declared to be a boy by Madeline. After all, Victor's entire lower body grew within Charlotte making it impossible to confirm, and if Madeline had two seperate names in mind for a boy/girl, it would make sense that's how she would've chosen to name the two.
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Second-hand ex-Nazi links are basically guarenteed through what AsherFrost brought up.
If you try to extrapolate further from it, the Nazi regime was known as the Third Reich, so the presence of "fourth", "new" and "horizons" is pretty unsettling.
IMO the most likely explanation is that the individual passwords don't mean anything, but collectively they form a pretty obvious message- So, it's something of a dogwhistle, testing him for Nazi sympathies, to what end I wouldn't really know. It's most likely just a detail meant to add a little extra intrigue/disturbing qualities to the story, though, not anything hinting at something that much grander.
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@Klakky said:
Devs said it themselves, and I agree with it 100%
Totems are side objectives, if u ignore them and just rush gens, that is your punishment.
Noed doesnt need to be nerfed as its unactive for 99% of the game, its only active when all gens are done same as adrenaline.
If you have problem with noed u seriously need to work on your totem finding, they spawn in same area every time, some have finite spawn and will always spawn in the exact location every time, others spawn nearby always in a corner(except asylum and cornfield they got totem spawns in middle of the open...)
Detective's hunch was on shrine of secrets a few weeks ago, there is 0 excuse that you can find a hex that is not activated until you complete the last gen.
It just like many killer perks depends on survivors if its going to be activated or not.
I always cleanse totems after completing a gen on my way to another gen, I've only been hit by noed once since I learned how totems work and that was because I had to go do something real quick so took a chance.
I totally disagree with "just do bones" as an excuse for NoeD being fine.
- Cleansing dull totems, even with NoeD existing, is mostly agreed to be a complete waste of time. (excluding scenarios like Inner Strength users) Even if NoeD was a baseline feature for Killers, I still doubt this would change, at least among the highest levels of play where wasting at least 50 seconds total of the Survivor team's time to do bones (more likely much, much more) is often the difference between an 0K and a 4K game. I believe that the majority of redrank Survivors would agree they would rather have NoeD proc than waste ~2 minutes finding and cleansing every totem on the map before they can finish gens.
- Cleansing dull totems actually makes NoeD HARDER to deal with anyway. It's a much better strategy to make note of the dull totems you see, then IF NoeD activates, you go check back on the dulls you've found to see if one's become NoeD's Hex Totem. If you cleanse the Dull Totems you find, you just increase NoeD's chances of attaching itself to a well-hidden totem you'll never be able to find.
The Survivor perk meta is definitely a bigger issue right now than NoeD, but it's still not an ideal Perk.
As for the change, I would suggest instead:
Starts as a Hex Totem on the map. If Survivors cleanse Hex: No One Escapes Death, the Hex will transfer to a random Dull Totem on the map up to 0/1/2 times, if a Dull Totem is available. Whenever a Hex: No One Escapes Death totem is cleansed, all Survivors are notified with a perk popup.
This way Survivors can and most likely would actually attempt to do bones against NoeD, and essentially turns it into a variant of Devour Hope. Less crazy when it goes off and takes longer to go off, but has a much longer "aw hell, we need to do bones" period for the Survivors, should they decide to cleanse it, making it a harder decision than Devour Hope that totally forces a cleanse. Less of a surprise and gives Survivors more agency, especially against bad Killers who lack the map pressure necessary to stop Survivors from cleansing their Totems.
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It really wouldn't matter how good/bad this idea was, Trapper with a dog isn't the same character. And, even though Trapper could certainly use buffs, his current core concept has aged quite well and I don't want it changed. You'd be better off pitching this as a new Killer altogether.
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I think most people would agree Blood Echo is underpowered. Its lack of usage is pretty good proof of that, especially considering the Killer perk meta is generally healthier than the Survivor perk meta, with more room for off-meta or niche choices. I don't really see Blood Echo used much as an off-meta or niche perk.
The thought process is probably that Blood Echo, like some other perks like Cruel Limits, in theory helps Killers apply a lot more pressure in situations where they're already applying some, so it makes some sense that BHVR want limits on them to avoid situations that are too oppressive- But compare this to something like BBQ & Chili and there's absolutely zero contest.
This is a more ambitious rework but I think inflicting Deep Wounds might make more sense. I think the idea behind Blood Echo is to punish Survivors for not healing, and I think forcing them to waste time Mending would be a smarter punishment. Would need playtesting of course, but I think this might genuinely justify the perk having a cooldown. (as a sidenote: the cooldown even with this rework could also be changed to "Once Blood Echo effects a Survivor, they are immune to Blood Echo for 80/70/60 seconds" so the cooldown's survivor specific)
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@TheRockstarKnight said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1415715#Comment_1415715
I mean, if they just combined Mangled and Hemorrhage would it really be an issue?
I think it'd make sense too; you bleed more while suffering from particularly gruesome wounds.
Combining Mangled and Hemorrhage would be something I'd be in favor of (with obvious reworks to the perks/addons that inflict them where needed) but if you want to do something akin to that while keeping them distinct, Hemorrhage could cause healing progress to decay while you aren't being healed.
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It will vary based on your preferred playstyle, but Doctor is probably the most well-rounded and interesting Killer out of that selection, and he also comes with Monitor & Abuse, an extremely versatile and fun Perk that adds a lot of potential to many other Killers.
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The Entity seems to pick Killers and Survivors based on their aptitude for, well... It's in the name. All of the Survivors have some kind of inner strength that keeps them going, in Kate's case it appears to be a sense of responsibility to keep everyone else's spirits high. That resistance equals more hope which means those people represent more "food" for The Entity. Kate inspiring all the other Survivors with warm fuzzies might well be doing more harm than good, honestly.
As for why The Entity decided to influence Kate to play on her guitar, it was presumably the best way to nab her. In my head I've always imagined Kate's abduction being in broad daylight with her not being lost in the slightest, which is unusual conditions for The Entity to grab someone (usually at the dead of night when they're lost in fog/forest) so it makes sense that it might rely on an aid like a magical melody in this instance.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1260448#Comment_1260448
That's not entirely true. Aside from Myers different tier lunges, Oni literally has an aoe in blood fury.
It depends on what you count as a lunge. I certainly don't think Blood Fury smacks are lunges at all.
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Unfortunately it doesn't seem like it, the # of Perks already in the game is huge and the developers presumably want to save whatever new perk designs they have for new Chapter Teachables to get more out of them as content, instead of throwing them out as neutrals.
This is a shame, because I think we should have a netural Exhaustion perk for survivors and a neutral gen delay perk for Killers, given how important both of those often are in perk builds.
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@Meroko said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1259952#Comment_1259952
You couldn't be more wrong and clearly have never played killer. Killer lunges are definitely not the same and some change depending on their states (See T3 Myers). Freddy has by far the farthest lunge right now. I would say it was okay before his buff, but it definitely needs looked at now that he's easily Top 5 killer even without the long arm lunge.
Uh... No. In fact, Myers is the only Killer that has a unique Lunge distance right now, excluding things like Pig's Ambush and only counting the usual extended normal attacks as lunges.
Previously Killers had unique lunge distances, IIRC based on their movement speed, but it's since been normalised and T1/T3 Myers is the sole exception.
Freddy having a "Longer lunge" is purely placebo, an illusion, not this time, this one was invented by a writer, ecetera. Could Freddy get animation changes to make his lunge look more convincing, sure thing and I wouldn't be against that, but to claim he has an abnormally long lunge is objectively untrue.
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@batmanscar said:
yeah my bad add-on . and what iristone is supposed to do is arm them to trap survivors , thats what it is MEANT to do , what you said is that the perk activates the traps but is useless because it does not do what it was intended which is to trap survivors because the traps are in places of the map that survivors would never go , so you repeated my o.p . and what you said about it not being a bag add-on thus hat is what makes it weak makes no sense . bag add-ons do one thing , and iristone does a complete other thing . they are completely unrelated so what you said makes no sense . anyway the add-on needs to be reworked .
No, I didn't repeat anything, I'm pointing out you're supposed to place traps yourself. That's what Trapper is supposed to do, you place beartraps. Iri stone is not supposed to make you a mindless M1 Killer who occasionally gets free hooks from traps, it's supposed to be the ultimate insurance against Survivors disarming your traps.
You completely misunderstood the Addon's purpose, it's like equipping Iridescent Head and expecting it to give Huntress autoaim. You still need the basic skill the Killer's power is built around to use the Addon, the addon just makes that power stronger in a specific way.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out why the Bag addons are a problem for Iridescent Stone. Bag addons are essentially mandatory to play Trapper because of how vital the ability to carry multiple traps is. This means all other Addons are indirectly made worse because they essentially only have 1 slot to compete for- Which means Iri stone is in MUCH more fierce competition with other powerful addons like Setting Tools or the Dyes.
Most Killers have a solid baseline and don't need to rely on Addons to be usable, Trapper is currently the major exception and is very difficult to use without a Bag addon, which does indirectly impact all his other addons.
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I think it's just a prop that looks like a figure when seen in the mist. I WOULD really like it if disturbing easter eggs like this existed in a bunch of maps though, but we just have the golden toolbox.
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I think Inner Strength is fine. Gearhead, though, is one of my least favourite Perks ever and I definitely agree it's an overly complex mess- And, worst of all, it's an overly complex mess that fills the same design space as a bunch of other Perks. Why would I touch Gearhead when Thrilling Tremors exists?
@Waffleyumboy said:
Every possible simple perk will be made eventually. Once they're gone, if they're not gone already, they will only be able to make perks with more conditions. On a side note, imagine calling Gearhead overly complex. Dead Man's Switch is way harder to activate and the effect is just as complicated.
A Perk can be simple to use and simultaneously be overly complicated. Gearhead is a REALLY roundabout Perk that does something relatively simple that a bunch of similar Perks do in half the explanation/activation conditions, even it doesn't actually change your playstyle. (and by the same token, a fairly simple Perk like Save The Best For Last can dramatically change your playstyle and still be fantastic)
I'm not actually against complicated Perks, I think the reason people single out Gearhead is because it feels complicated without good reason.
I agree that the design space is slowly shrinking for Perks and new, more complex Perks that retread old ground is slowly becoming more and more of a necessity- I also think a LOT of people place far too much emphasis on Perks being meta-shaking as being an important factor of Perks being good. However, Gearhead is still terrible. To quickly plug my personal suggested rework:
Whenever a Survivor triggers a Great Skill Check for Generator repair, the Generator triggers a Loud Noise Notification for you. Good Skill Check success zones for Generator repair are reduced by 10/15/20%.
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It'd be more fair, but IMO would make Moris a bit boring and have them lose the impact they normally do.
My personal suggested rework for Moris would be:
Cypress stays as is. Ivory/Ebony have their effects changed to:
You may kill 1 Survivor/All the Survivors by your own hand. To kill a Survivor in this way, that Survivor must either have recieved full Sacrifice progress on the hook, or a total of 5 Hook States must have been progressed across the entire Survivor team. (note: sacrifice counts as a hook state, so a sacrificed survivor equals 3 progress points to your moris. however, a death from a mori/bleedout does not count for this)
This way, Moris can't be used to eliminate Survivors early to gain an unfair advantage, but an Ebony Mori is still a potentially terrifying prospect in a match. These Moris would mostly turn bad matches for Survivors into stomps however, and if a Killer was doing horribly they would never get to actually mori anyone.
I'd also like to see two other, less important changes:
-Survivors ALSO get 1000 BP for being mori'd, it shouldn't be an "UGH" moment, it should be somewhat cool for both sides
-Survivors who are eligible for a mori will see a debuff called "Marked for Death" on their HUD appear so they know what might happen if the Killer catches them
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You mean addon, not perk.
Iri stone is okay. You seem to misunderstand its use, sure it DOES arm your traps before you even grab them, but that's not supposed to be its main use.
Once you grab your traps and place them in good spots, Iri stone really starts to pull its weight fantastically, because it makes Disarming essentially irrelevant, which is one of Trapper's biggest weaknesses in high level play especially against organised SWF teams.
The main weakness of Iri stone is one almost all of Trapper's addons suffer from: It's not a Bag addon, and so it's very difficult to actually make room for it. If Trapper could finally carry two traps at once as part of his base kit, Iridescent Stone would see a lot more use and would be a solid addon.
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I understand how the hatch changes might be jarring to someone coming back, but you should understand that the reason why it was changed is because the Hatch escape is supposed to be a somewhat rare streak of mercy for a final Survivor, NOT something the last Survivor is entitled to if they play well.
I generally much prefer being able to close the hatch speaking as a Killer main. Previously the hatch endgame was extremely awkward, grabbing Survivors mid-escape was really not a reliable defense mechanism and it often resulted in a lot of Mexican standoffs to say nothing of the rare but problematic instances where Survivors took games hostage. If both the Killer and Survivor found the hatch, the Survivor pretty much wins.
It's true hatch closing puts the Killer in control of the endgame, but... That's how the game is supposed to be. The Killer exerts control over the match, it's the Survivor's job(s) to slip through the cracks of that control and work around it.
One thing I can agree on in this thread is that Exit Gates appearing next to each other is indeed wack. Another change I wouldn't be against is adding a thick fog nearby the Exit Gates that dissipates when you're close to it (eg. within 20 meters), so a Killer can't position themselves to watch both Exit Gates at once and actually need to patrol between both, giving Survivors a window to try and open them. I think that would be a reasonable change, too.
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Entity, I've come to bargain. *gets hooked and sacrificed*
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I'd be surprised if he hasn't tried something on the female Killers at some point, let alone the other Survivors.
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It's hardly impossible for Myers to use his ability against a Survivor running Spine Chill. Spine Chill helps but is far from an oppressive counterpick.
Changes to Myers to make leaving T1 a little easier for higher ranked games would be fine, but Spine Chill is not the problem.
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As mentioned above quite thoroughly, the Killers have canonically been captured, but never been actually killed. If they were, it's quite probable they'd just return to normal, like the serum-ised Killers seemingly did in canon after some time, or like how Survivors do whenever they die.
It isn't really a matter of courage either so much as it is the circumstances of the Trials. The Alchemist was probably only able to subdue the Killers because, like Vigo, they figured out how to screw the system. For the average Survivor, though, The Entity deliberately controls what equipment and tools they have at their disposal to fight back. The Entity eating at your Bloodweb isn't just a gameplay mechanic, it in lore is trying to limit the tools at your disposal in the Trials because it doesn't want Survivors or Killers rocking the boat too much.
So, let's assume the best-case scenario. You have four people against the Killer, armed with at best flashlights, firecrackers and wrenches/screwdrivers. The Killers, meanwhile, are often described as beyond human in physical capabilities, and even the relatively normal ones like Ghostface, Pig or Legion still have quite high chances against the Survivors (remember, they have knives, the Survivors don't), very few of whom have any level of serious combat prowess. David, Ash and Bill are the only ones who are really combat capable and the latter two rely largely on firearms they don't have. Some others like Meg are somewhat athletic but that doesn't really count for much against, say, Trapper.
Even if they do make some headway, The Entity is constantly watching them and would probably not let this go lightly, much like how it interferes by blocking windows. I think the most straightforward and likely thing it'd do is give the Killer in question a free carte blanche on Moris for that Trial, which'd probably end the matter right there.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that if a player was skilled enough to get constant Great checks this would essentially be better than current BNPs and it'd seriously flood that player with Bloodpoints.
Perhaps a different suggestion would be giving you something like 3 consecutive skillchecks if you begin repairing a Generator with that toolbox for the first time, and the gen's progression isn't above 50%? So while BNPs are for slamming out a crapton of progress immediately regardless of situation, this addon would be more about roaming the early game looking for gens to spread out a bunch of early progress between them.
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The issue with this is that animations would need to be re-examined as the hitboxes would have to accurately reflect both first and third-person animations to work out, and, to be honest, as a Killer I think having significantly varying hitboxes in first-person swipes depending on Killer selection might start screwing with my muscle memory and accurately gauging if I can make a lunge or not.
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@Seiko300 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1242241#Comment_1242241
Yeah, I would agree Freddy's got a bit of a pompous personality, but that's why I said he "figured out a way to avoid this problem" (of being pulled out of the dream world or forgotten). This would have been after the fact, when he's been forgotten or "killed" after like 6 movies or something, those times would have been learning experiences for him to try a different approach, to taking a backseat role in his own story or a more subtle approach.
Also if I'm not mistaken, Freddy's reality warping abilities extend to being able to create illusions of people and animals, things that are alive. So he could create the illusions of different people from different time periods like Laurie Strode from the 70s, or The Huntress from WW2. This theory basically runs deep with conspiracy that most everything, even some of the killers or survivors are illusions Freddy has created to build this small little patch of paradise to populate it and make it convincing enough that it's really something else. Because again, he's basically all powerful in the Dream World.
Although yeah, I'll admit it's not a perfect theory, just like you said more of a fun thought experiment.nIt's been awhile since I've seen New Nightmare, so I can't exactly remember the explanation behind how Freddy exists in that movie. But if it would help push this theory further along I'm all for it
The explanation behind New Nightmare Freddy is that he's some kind of ancient, primordial creature that feeds on fear and wants to become real- So, it takes the shape of a fictional character (Freddy) and subtly feeds the Nightmare crew new ideas for movies and keeps encouraging them to make endless sequels so it can grow in power. When The New Nightmare happens, it's absorbed enough fear to actually gain abilities comparable to Freddy and it's working on claiming its first real human victim.
If I was going to try and brainstorm a way you could contrive this into its own theory, let's say The Entity is some kind of larger, more powerful caregiver for these creatures, and every single Killer as presented is actually one of these entities. All the Killer Bios are stories, not literal events, and the Trials are in fact for the Killers, making their different takes on creating fear increasingly real until they can eventually leave The Entity's Realm into reality.
The Survivors, meanwhile, would be random individuals (or perhaps actual actors in the cases of the licensed ones, so Laurie is actually Jamie Lee Curtis, ecetera) who have had their "roles" as shown in the bios imposed onto them by The Entity. (we know the fog can screw with people's minds, the observer mentions in one of the new DbD mobile cutscenes that some Survivors percieve every single Trial as their first one)
This adds an extra double meaning to the Observer. He THINKS he's viewing people's memories, but he's quite literally in a library, reading books, without realizing he's in the Fiction section. Maybe The Entity actually wants him there, as having an "Observer" to these events is exactly what makes them real. The Observer believes in these "memories" so much they have completely overtaken his normal perception of reality, so he'd be the perfect vessel for that kind of purpose.
There's probably a lot of other nitty-gritty stuff I'm not thinking of right now as to how you could run with this theory, that's just a jumping off point for anyone else who wants to run with this idea.
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@Science_Guy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1242192#Comment_1242192
There's an interesting possibility that the Legion members will have Tomes that replay this scene from their different perspectives and that they might all contradict each other, Maybe the ambiguity is intentional.
I don't know if I'm ready to give BHVR that much credit until that actually happens, though.
For the record, that's just me bending over backwards to come up with an in-universe explanation that kinda works, for those who REALLY cannot stand lore contradictions. Personally I think whoever made the cutscene just didn't have that original text in front of them and were just told to "draw Julie killing the janitor", not knowing there was a previously specified way she stabbed him.
Not intending to give BHVR too much credit and say they're definitely playing with unreliable narrators in these memories.
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@I_Eat_Worms said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1239256#Comment_1239256
sorry i wish i didnt have to but its kinda true
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1239267#Comment_1239267
teleport anywhere (thats close by because it doesnt last long and goes on recharge), flicker in and out of danger (yet fails to flicker out of pallets or flashlights)
Why are you assuming that things like getting hit by pallets/flashlights aren't restrictions placed by The Entity?
When making discussions like this, you have to make some kind of speculation as to what components of this game are just game mechanics/imposed rules and which aren't. I mean, in lore terms for example, Myers wouldn't even be remotely phased by a pallet bumping into his side. While Freddy is the only Killer explicitly mentioned to have his abilities altered a little, we know this is the case to some extent for all of them, as if that wasn't the case they'd be able to Mori anyone they wanted, would just grab Survivors and kill them instead of hitting them and letting them run for a few seconds, ecetera.
So, what do we draw off as fuel for this? Look at material outside of Dead by Daylight. Freddy has a film anthology, Spirit/Nurse have specific character inspirations we can draw on for material.
And, sorry to break it to you, but in Freddy's film anthology, he is regularly defeated by people far weaker than the Killers on display. And no, that isn't somehow a testament to his power like you try to spin it by saying "kill all of them because they have no dumb teens to interfere with him", dude, I think anyone in microsleep fighting Freddy instead of running from him would figure out his weakness of pulling him into reality very fast. (note: one might invoke Myers here, but Myers is typically evaded and only fought head-on with things like firearms and explosives. Not really the same thing to the teens of the Nightmare series, who all pretty much win the moment they pull Freddy into reality)
He does do crazy stuff like turn people into cockroaches, but it's unclear if he can just snap his fingers and do that, or if he needs conditions like making them fear him. To be honest, given the frequency that he doesn't do that, despite him often knowing he's at great risk, I think something like that probably IS the case. If he really could do anything in the Dream World without restriction, how many times in Nightmare films should he have just instantly obliterated everyone? He sure hates many of the characters enough to resort to that instead of his preferred drawn-out kills, on at least some occasions. Or maybe just make their legs spontaneously explode or something?
Meanwhile, in traditional ghost mythos, ghosts are rarely dealt with at all and are often considered far beyond human abilities to deal with, and those that can be dealt with are usually appeased, or tricked, or ran away from, not stabbed to re-death. Spirit is only ranked higher because she's clearly inspired from a specific category of ghost that can help narrow down roughly where she stands in that larger mythos (much like I might cite a Scream movie when talking about Ghostface, even though Danny Johnson isn't actually from that franchise), Nurse is generic so she's a little less clear in abilities, therefore she's ranked just under Spirit. (plus other factors like blinks being worse in a fight than yamaoka's haunting, nurse not having the rage factor spirit does, ecetera)
I'd also like to note that this analysis is FAVOURABLE towards Freddy- Because DbD's Freddy is Remake Freddy, who showed himself capable of basically nothing except creating a dreamlike environment and slashing people. Allowing previous Nightmare films to be used as points of discussion is a massive degree of leeway the character is being given.
With all that said... Seriously, dude, you have been EXTREMELY obtuse in this discussion which is why I at first stopped replying to you. That unhinged rant about sexualising Spirit is what got me back, for the record I don't give a damn about her character specifically, I don't even own her Chapter, and my personal favourite in the roster for design/gameplay, Trapper is nowhere near the top of my own list. I never questioned why you have the opinions you do or your character, I assumed and still believe you're being honest in your opinion, so do other people the same damn courtesy.
@Mikeadatrix said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1239256#Comment_1239256
Stubbornness is only a worthwhile trait when it comes to things that are 100% undebateable. The Spirit's power is not something a wise person would be stubborn over. Without restriction, Freddy would melt the world because he can. Without restriction, the Nurse would teleport anywhere she wants and exact her psychotic tendencies. Without restrictions, the Trapper could hold all his bear traps (scary AF trust me). Without res-
Point is, the Spirit isn't the end-all-be-all killer when we have a literal dream-demon and a woman who can phase through walls. She's strong, but not the best.
Not changing your mind =/= stubbornness. I'm willing to debate because I think it IS debatable, this is a silly discussion about hypothetical characters over the internet with extremely vague powers in the cases of Spirit/Nurse and very sketchy powers in the case of Freddy.
The primary reason why I personally put Freddy below Nurse/Spirit is primarily because... Well, do they even need sleep? Can they even sleep? That's kind of a big deal when you're facing Freddy. You could even make an argument killers like Hag or Oni may or may not still be capable of falling asleep, though I think that's too far into speculative waters.
Is Freddy still an extremely powerful character? Of course he is. He is obviously not a flawless god-tier unconditional reality warper, though, and I think arguing that he could "kill" ghosts requires far too many assumptions about the ghosts and himself that go against the direction of what their respective lores indicate to take it seriously.
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I mean, Freddy's bio is from a neutral narrator and explicitly describes how he was taken into The Entity's realm like everyone else, plus he somehow has people from the 70s like Laurie Strode running around with professional esports gamers, I don't believe Freddy's ego could ever take enough of a backseat for him to pretend he's not the guy running the show, and Survivors getting hurt in the dream world would hurt them in real life and thus kill them the first time they got hooked.
Though, this is a fun thought experiment, and hey, if you want to run with this further, maybe consider "Freddy" from Wes Craven's The New Nightmare, as I think there's maybe more potential in that creature or perhaps its "species" to accuse of being the secret orchestrator of Dead by Daylight.
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@SeeYoureWrong said:
I doubt she would know what the entity thinks or plans of. It only hungers for hope. Even if she was, the entity is perceptive in the sense of bending killers’ wills and bending them HARD. She has no reason to nor has ever attempted it, given that the first and only time she has been hurt in the Fog was by Vigo for experimenting with the serum. Other than that, she shows no visible signs of being hurt other than what happened while she was still “mortal” in a sense.
The entity is weird imo. Like do the survivors ever age?
Survivors/Killers don't really age, or perhaps it's best to say time "outside" is pretty much irrelevant.
We have Killers from a huge range of time periods (and Survivors from a smaller range, but still a range of several different decades) and while it could be explained via "Well, they come from alternate dimensions where human civilisation is less advanced", I don't think quite all of them are from alternate universes. Given how The Observer describes universes with terms like "Terra Primus" and "Terra Dark" as opposed to "Universe 11,000" (and the fact that he checks out a memory and says "that one's probably from Terra Dark") that indicates to me the DbD multiverse is relatively limited in its quantity of worlds.
There is one addendum to this, though. Trapper's Serum cosmetic is notably younger-looking than his current form without the iconic leathery skin, indicating IMO that there is some level of change Killers/Survivors go through inbetween Trials as they get "older". However, there's some level of preservation going on so The Entity can get the most out of everyone it abducts.
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I don't think it matters at all where who stabbed who, especially because it seems Julie landed the killing blow in both versions, but sure, it's a minor inconsistency, or you could argue it's a deliberate retcon. I think the larger strokes are what actually matters in storytelling, but whatever.
If you want to be mega-serious though and reconcile these two inconsistencies, it's worth noting that Killer bios are neutral narrators, while the Tomes are memories. You could argue that given how intensely traumatic the experience was, how traumatic everything afterwards probably was too, and how Julie is constantly trying to mold herself in Frank's image, Julie might well remember her killing of the cleaner much differently than it actually happened. Whereas in reality she was hesitant and couldn't even look as she stabbed him, she remembers ruthlessly killing him like a badass.
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The Fog is essentially the essence of The Entity's realm, so yes, it presumably constructs everything we see in-game like the areas. (hence why Trial grounds are randomised, or why there are several different versions of Badham Preschool) Characters like the Observer know how to form it into
boozewhatever they want. It's unclear if The Entity's realm is actually a place aside from The Entity itself, or if it's a part of the Entity itself, though.I would imagine The Fog isn't actually what "takes" Survivors, it's more that opening a passageway to The Entity's Realm equals the Fog seeping out.
"Lifting" the Fog is probably impossible, unless destroying the Entity would mean that. (of course, that's probably impossible too) It's best to think of it like a natural resource that looks like fog.
EDIT: Wait, you seem to have totally changed the thread's contents? That or something weird's going on with the forums.
Anyway, mostly what's said above, but I'll add that it appears like Survivors aren't 100% on how they end up in the Trial Grounds. It seems as if the Fog just comes for them, then they find themselves thrown in the middle of the environment they have to survive in. Killers might have the luxury of a more coherent experience.
Killers will be tortured as seen with LF and Trapper. If a Survivor tries to go on strike and refuse to do Generators, it doesn't matter to The Entity as long as they still have some degree of hope. If a Survivor gives up entirely and no longer has any will to live left, they go to the Void. But, if a Survivor starts parading through the Trial Grounds announcing they aren't going to do anything, simply because it's a possible escape strategy they haven't tried yet, they'll just be hooked with extra prejudice.
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I would prefer Iri head have a distance requirement like Iri Coin. (though, Iri coin is terrible because it has a requirement of 15 meters while DS has a max range of 18, but whatever, Huntress doesn't need to worry about that) As a compromise, maybe both conditions could be an option so low and high ranked players both have a solid chance of getting use out of it, either you get a longshot or a fully charged shot against a bad player who can't get behind cover in time.
As for the second, I don't think it's really worthy of an Ultra Rare. I wouldn't mind it as a Rare or VR, but UR, nope. It really doesn't accomplish all that much except saving you a little time.
I guess for an alternate Huntress UR, I'd suggest:
When your Hatchet is fully charged, your Hatchet will phase through all obstacles once you throw it and begin glowing. Upon fully charging your Hatchet, all Survivors recieve a loud noise notification at your location.
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I think this could be fun, yeah. Make it like the Shrine of Secrets, two rotating challenges for Survivor and Killer respectively that give a new Perk build every week and potentially let you try out Perks you don't own. It'd be a pretty fun way to mix things up.
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I wouldn't be against trying these changes out on a PTB to see how they work out, sure. Only worry of mine is that 8 seconds is a narrow window for potential shenanigans from organised teams to very quickly heal back up, so some worst-case scenario tests might be in order.
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This Perk sounds like it'd be fantastic. I mean, not powerful or anything, but a great one to screw with people and extremely fun. Honestly this effect should've been what Hangman's Trick did.
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@Milo said:
I would rather they change those perks to actually be stronger tier 3 instead of making a whole mechanic... for like 3 perks.
I agree with this sentiment, buuut lowering Perk tiers for the purposes of an extra challenge or testing/demonstration would be pretty decent IMO. Especially in Kill Your Friends lobbies where you could negotiate house rules like only using certain Perks at lower tiers.
It's also worth noting that while personally Tier 1s being better than Tier 3s irks me to no end personally, BHVR apparently see it as relatively harmless and a low priority fix as people can just choose to avoid levelling said Perks up. Considering that, allowing people to pick their own Perk tiers might be a good investment for any future problems like this, too.
As another note: New game mechanics could actually spring up around this, eg. I could easily see Tome Challenges, Achievements or even other Perks revolving around only using Perks below a certain Rarity if a feature like this were to be implemented, but that's perhaps another discussion.
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Yes there would, it'd be to either change the binding on mori to something that isn't attacking, or have it as a hold [M1] instead of a press [M1] prompt. Changing this would indeed be a good call as I too like to hold my Moris until appropriate when I'm running them, don't like using them to kick folks out of games in two minutes flat.
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I wouldn't mind more obscurement for Lery's, but if you want to make Trapper better on Lery's, the real trick would be changing the windows/door spawns to make the map a little more restrictive and give less options in chase.
While Trapper's traps can work great if they go unseen, most high-level Trappers do not rely on that unless they're throwing out a wildcard trap (and the patches of grass Lery's DOES have are phenomenal for wildcards). Most of the time, high-level Trappers will throw one down expecting Survivors to see it, but the point is that they either have to accept not being able to go that way which might screw them over in a chase, or disarm it and thus reveal their position.
I would rather have fewer entrances/exits to worry about in a map like Lery's as Trapper than better coverings for traps. In an area with foliage, I can place down a trap and maybe it'll be useful. In an area with only 1-2 entrances/exits, I can place down a trap and there's a high chance it'll be useful. In an area with no foliage and 4-5 entrances/exits, I can't do much of anything except try to block pallets and take chances with the windows.
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I think that one thing that could help a lot with new player friendliness would be the inclusion of new Ranks, 21 through 25.
New accounts would start at Rank 25 for both roles, and rank resets will never take you below Rank 20. The first five ranks would essentially guarentee matching with other players roughly as new as you are.
Another possibility could be a new Tome that all new accounts start on by default, that rewards far higher BP than usual for completing its tasks but has only one chapter, essentially as a tutorial Tome. Pretty much give players hundreds of thousands of BP out of the gate for doing tasks starting with "Kill a Survivor", "Complete your first Generator" then graduating to other tasks such as getting your first 4K, surviving your first game, levelling up two different Killers to Level 10, stunning a Killer with a pallet, getting two different Survivors downed at the same time, and so on. Give players tasks specifically designed to get them to try new things and new strategies that'll help them naturally get a feel for what the game's about while giving them an early BP boost along the way.
That, and changes to how BP is earned in general would be nice. Made a thread about this ages back but the TL:DR is that all Killers should have a BP addon, all killer BP addons should increase BP earnings post-match by 50%, and Survivors should get changes to their base BP earnings so they're more consistent, particularly in categories like Survival, and so Survivors that play a specific role, like the team's looper or the team's stealthy genpopper, are not punished for not being jacks of all trades. (as Killers don't need to worry about that kind of stuff, I fail to see why Survivors should be punished for choosing a playstyle)
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Okay... Are you looking for advice on improving it? Not 100% why you've made this thread.
My main gripe is Hex: The Third Seal as it's a reeeally bad perk in general. How many Survivors in your games actually use any aura reveals? Of course, you don't have many perks as you mentioned but most Perks in the game would be a better option. Even something generic like Bitter Murmur or Sloppy Butcher will absolutely give you more value than Third Seal.
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@batmanscar said:
if you put someone in the dying state with devour hope and the gates open and the survivor has adrenaline , that is to counter devour hope , so there are perks that counter other perks . anyway any killer would want this perk so I would say it is a must for the next killer
...I'm sorry, did you say Adrenaline is designed to counter Devour Hope?
I'm... At a loss as to how to respond to that. I'd be amazed if Adrenaline being used to stop Devour Hope from mori-ing a downed Survivor has happened even once in the history of DbD matches.
There ARE examples of perks countering other perks, such as Stridor and Iron WIll. If those perks combine, Iron Will Rank 3 is essentially downgraded to Iron Will Rank 1. However, it's not like the game is balanced in such a way that Stridor exists solely to counter Iron Will, or that Iron Will is 100% useless when Stridor enters the scene. Stridor is mostly equipped to improve close-range audio detection in general (especially with killers like Spirit who rely on that), and Iron Will isn't a wasted perk slot against it, it's just partially negated. (and it does prevent stridor from hugely enhancing your injury sounds to 150% of normal)
Adding a Perk specifically JUST to make one other uber-popular Perk useless when it's equipped is still bad game design, it makes the play experience much more frustrating for both sides and damages perk diversity. It's okay to have Perks that partially counter other perks/setups, but Decisive Strike will not magically be solved by the inclusion of this suggested Perk and it'd just make everything worse. Just rebalance Decisive Strike and cut out the middleman.