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To steal an idea from myself, I actually think we could move these Killer power descriptions even earlier than the loading screens to the lobby. I don't see an issue with, for first encounters only, you "find some strange notes" near the campfire when the relevant Killer matchmakes with you, clicking on them previews the Killer Power like in this feature.
I particularly like this approach because it puts some control over how long they need to read this information into the new players' hands, rather than being tied to a loading screen or needing to consult them mid-match.
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I think it would make more sense to implement this feature as a support bonus on a different compromised generator Perk. As a baseline change for compromised gen perks I think it would make triggering them a bit too reliable, it kinda defeats the downside of them. But as a support Perk like Jagged Compass IMO it'd fit perfectly.
Help Wanted should be one of the first Perks to get a buff accounting for Diminishing Returns and might've been a major motivator for the feature behind the scenes. If the bonus becomes 40% for example that would make its Diminishing Returns synergy with STBFL/Keep Them Waiting almost the same as pre-Diminishing Returns, but would be a big buff to Help Wanted's standalone power. Still not sure it'd be good but would be much better than currently.
As for a proposal for an extra gravy effect for Help Wanted: I think permanently increasing the amount of time required to open the Exit Gates, like Remember Me, feels thematic for the Perk.
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@NeverSolus said:
I'd agree here. There is a miserable valley between skill complexity and results in this game. It's not as easy to fix as a few buffs, but there's absolutely no reason that Killer X should put in multiple times the effort only to get the exact same result - that's the entire principle of 'Balance.' If you put in X1, you should get Y1 out of the machine.
If a killer takes X5 effort, they should get out Y5 result. If they put in X5 effort and get out Y1 result, then your balancing is flatly wrong. This is, wittingly or not, exactly what survivors complain about with ghoul. He requires X1 effort (in most cases) but provides Y2 result and they reasonably dislike that. Equally counterplays are similar. If a survivor puts X1 effort into a counterplay they should see Y1 result. X5 effort and Y1 result (as with Singularity) on counterplay would be deemed universally unacceptable and imbalanced.
Put another way, if survivors had to put five times the effort into killer counter play, they'd be upset and understandably so when they saw the exact same, standard result. When this is the case people call for nerfs, and again this is understandable. The same logic should be presented for the killer, adjusted for asym of course.
Nurse players have to put in 5X Effort (high skill), and get a 5X Result, and people hate it but understand that a Nurse putting in X1 is going to get less out of it on the return to the point that low MMR Nurse is a meme. No one complains about the Nurse who is bad, they only complain about the Nurses who aren't. This tells me, by example, Nurse is not imbalanced but instead has a strong showing at high skill expression and the survivor counter-play should be addressed to make sure X1=Y1, so to speak.
Singularity is the same. He's too easy to counter en masse, requires setup, requires tactical thinking, requires map knowledge and predictive modeling. The end result of all that is still a result that is underwhelmingly similar to what any other killer could get for landing an M2.
It's just disappointing, I suppose. I like Lary alot but the high intensity of his cycle does not reward appropriately so I skip him in favor of better X1=Y1 killers like Dracula. I main Huntress who is screwy, but she's about as far down the negative slope as I'm willing to go most days.There is a miserable valley between skill complexity and results in this
game. It's not as easy to fix as a few buffs, but there's absolutely no
reason that Killer X should put in multiple times the effort only to
get the exact same result - that's the entire principle of 'Balance.' If
you put in X1, you should get Y1 out of the machine.If a killer takes X5 effort, they should get out Y5 result. If they put
in X5 effort and get out Y1 result, then your balancing is flatly wrong.This sounds like a sensible balancing idea on the surface, but if you actually want to accomplish it, you either need to make peace with only the high complexity Killers being good, or you need to make all Killers use/capable of roughly the same complexity level.
This is ultimately just part of how "technical" character archetypes in videogames need to work. You need to assume their mains will put up with the high level of complexity and balance around that, in the same game as characters who are fundamentally less complex and still need to be viable. If anything, you can assume that high complexity, even if the reward ratio for the learning is worse, will be part of the appeal for their mains, who will always be a relative minority in the playerbase.
And in general, trying to balance the game around "I can't be bothered to put effort in" is not going to end well.
Not saying there aren't ways to make the high complexity characters more appealing, but Singularity cannot keep his identity while chasing the target audience of people who just want an easy, strong Killer after a long workday like Ghoul. At some point you have to make peace with that
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I honestly don't think the complexity to reward ratio is inherently a problem. It can become one such as how Artist/Unknown sometimes feel to play, but Singularity starts feeling like an A tier pretty fast already IMO, even if you aren't completely cracked at him.
I can get behind some of the changes you suggest but don't think I'm behind these two:
Disabled Biopods recover after 35 seconds instead of 45.
The EMP economy can already become oppressive if there's weak links on the team or a Survivor dies, I don't think Survivor counterplay against Biopods should be nerfed like this.
Slightly faster post-teleport recovery, as there are situations where a
successful teleport still doesn't provide enough pressure to secure a
hit.I think this is part of the appeal of slipstream TP, it's not a ranged attack, you secure hits through understanding the ball and chain logic, when/how you should be using the overclock buff, what distance is worth teleporting for its own sake etc. To my knowledge, most situations where slipstream TP truly isn't enough are ones where the Survivor is burning through a valuable resource or the Killer TP'd at the wrong time. Maybe there's some specific scenario I'm not thinking of that really should be a hit but isn't with current TP recovery, but right now it feels strong enough IMO
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First, this is an excellent idea, I do really feel BHVR should do more followup chapters and using them as an excuse to rework features/Perks related to that Chapter is a good pitch.
The Totem change is common sense bad luck protection, I'm in favor.
I like the map rework ideas on a thematic level, I can see the vision for both of them. Map design wise it is difficult to judge off floorplans, but my instinct is that the Pale Rose being a main building that's only accessible from one angle, even if there are multiple entrances, could be a problem, but maybe I'm wrong about that.
I sadly do not like this proposal for a Hag rework. I think Eye/Feeble traps sound a bit too annoying to play against, especially because Hag could in theory corner Survivors and just drop a Feeble trap mid-chase for example. Esp. with Waterlogged Shoe
The Curse system also feels like it's convoluting the Power, and its limits aren't clear, surely I can't just pop Curse of the Eye at the start of the match for a free Lethal Pursuer, right?
My own counterproposal for a Hag rework:
- Under certain conditions, Hag will draw a trap in blood instead of mud. Blood traps are stronger than Mud traps.
- The conditions in question are shortly after a hook (still only good for one trap), or during a basic attack cooldown.
- Blood traps have an infinite teleport range, can be teleported to on command like a basekit Mint Rag, have Phantasm collision, grant Hag 5% Haste for a while if a Survivor trips them, and take something like 2-3x as long for Survivors to wipe away.
I don't think this on its own would immediately put Hag into a good state, maybe 4.6 does need to be considered or some kind of other buff needs to be implemented, but this is the pillar I'd build her around, I think it'd give her a unique skill compared to other trap Killers, give her web a bit more organicness to trap placement while allowing it to be much larger, but still play into her core gameplay which already exists.
Re. Hag's perks, I personally think it shouldn't be on individual Perks to escape cleansing at the start of the match, it should be done through basekit mechanics. But if there is one Hex that should not be given a specific feature to stop instant cleansing, it should be Devour Hope, the whole point of that Perk is to be super high risk, high reward.
I actually do like the change to Ruin though, proccing after first generator allows Survivors to potentially strategise around it and I think would make it kicking in feel more memorable. Less a fan of The Third Seal, I think you've overcomplicated it a bit and on principle I don't love the idea of it applying permanent blindness to a Survivor that they can genuinely do nothing about until the Killer chooses to attack a different Survivor and light the totem.
Combining Plunderer's with Ace in the Hole is a neat idea that does make sense. I do also like that this shifts a very niche/gimmicky playstyle out of the general pool and onto Teachables where they should be, and the new Plunderer's might not be that bad.
Overhauling Open-Handed into a luck based rare effect on a variety of interactions is very thematic, and I like rolling its old effect into Eyes of Belmont. I think you missed what it should do for Exit Gates though, and I do think 2x Stun duration would probably cause too many rage scenarios for it to be worthwhile as a Perk design.
Up The Ante unfortunately would synergise far too well with Stake Out/Hyperfocus IMO. It does have something of an anti-synergy with Stake Out but I'm a bit worried about this kind of Perk design. I do think shutting down Slippery Meat gimmick builds in favor of Slippery Meat just being a better standalone Perk is a good approach though.
Finally, the Hex reworks, I will only talk about highlights as I have already said IMO it should not be on Hex perks to avoid start of match cleansing, it should be fixed through base mechanics:
- Not against trying to make NOED more healthy, and I do like the idea of it being a severe punishment for death hook Survivors in endgame but I think this proposal inadvertently encourages slugging maybe a bit too much.
- Lullaby not revealing itself is IMO unthematic to the Perk and not friendly to new players, on a Perk that is already pretty bad for them to play against
- Being able to manually apply Pentimento, even with a 3m cooldown, is nuts IMO, it allows a Killer to apply almost a full Survivor's worth of generator pressure with a lot of immediacy.
I think this is a mixed bag of ideas overall but there's a lot of good stuff and the amount of work put in is excellent. And in general, I also agree that Hag being the next target after Trickster's encore would be an excellent choice. Great post!
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4.4's most foolish defender reporting for duty, I am willing to die on this hill: I'd much rather balance Killers around downsides than balance them around removing their downsides. Being worse at falling back on basic chasing fundamentally makes Killers more interesting to play as and against. I think you need to make a MUCH better case for removing it on so many Killers' kits than moving some B tier Killers to A tier.
If bad traversal is genuinely a downside that Killers can't be healthily balanced around right now, then I think the game pace is what needs to change instead.
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Has to be modern Myers. Slaughtering Strike is one of the biggest unnecessary own goals that has ever made it to the live game, BHVR made a wide swath of reasonable adjustments to Myers then set it all ablaze by making him a dash Killer.
Freddy is a close second. Not being Robert Englund is a stain the game can never quite wash out, and while his modern state is decent as Killer design gameplay wise I still find myself thinking about his original launch version, there were numerous problems with it ofc but the central pillar of not being able to touch Survivors unless they fall asleep is IMO core to the fantasy of the license and should not have been sacrificed the way it was in Freddy's reworks.
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Ok, predictions time: I think Cryptic Map will be D tier (obviously), Scribbled Map C tier, Bloodsense Map B tier, and Annotated Map also B tier because I like the cut of its jib
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Flashlight specific Killer Power interactions (shortening this to "lightburn" as a catch all term) were not problematic.
I will immediately concede that most of the interactions were badly implemented. Flashlights were too integral to Hag's counterplay and dealing with Lightburn as a Nurse/Wraith was mostly just frustrating. However it's weird to see BHVR take such a firm stance against Survivor items having unique Killer interactions like this, when:
- They still allow Killers to do the reverse, eg. Lightborn hard countering flashlights, Plague hard countering medkits
- They never removed the "lightburn" mechanic from Nemesis' zombies, and they serve as the proof this kind of mechanic can be done correctly in a way that isn't intrusive on either side and is just a nice, niche interaction
- Flashlights are (or at least, were supposed to be) the Survivor tool that helps them in chases, but Killers play so differently that some of them probably do need specific flashlight interactions to keep the tool relevant against them. Eg. I'd honestly like it if using a large amount of flashlight durability could destroy Pyramid Head's torment trails
- We have so many Killers now that, as long as the fundamental experience for both sides remains fun and balanced, I think having very specific Power counterplay interactions, even for the sake of "because it's thematic and fun" can and should remain in the game.
- I apply this same logic to how Adrenaline woke Survivors up vs Freddy, I think that was cool! It wasn't cool that it was extra gravy to an already very strong Perk and felt awful for Freddy players, but I don't see the problem with what are essentially easter eggs being in the game like this, as long as they feel like small extra features and not like the core of counterplay and/or something that is ruining one side's experience
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I personally don't think Xenomorph can be significantly buffed in a healthy way. Eg. Removing the motion detectors from Turrets is a common suggestion to make it stealthier, but it's such an iconic part of Alien I can't really imagine removing it. Xeno would need a rework on some level.
My dream rework would be adding Facehuggers, but I appreciate that would probably be way too much art work for a rework, so I have two quick alternatives:
- Rework Crawler/Standing mode into a proper stance swap system where there are some reasons for Xeno to enter standing mode, not sure exactly what but I think it would be more fun to play with and add a small amount of versatility.
- Modify Tail Attack to lean into "curving" it, eg. giving it a larger delay, but there's a better visual for it being curved in the air, it has a longer reach and better curving ability so it feels a bit more like a Pinhead projectile and allows skilled Xenos to hit around corners to some extent.
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Unironically yeah, if BHVR are deliberately going gaps with no balance changes, it would be cool to float prospective buffs/nerfs/reworks in front of the community, like they did Skull Merchant's rework.
Eg. "We are unhappy with Vigil's current state, and want to figure out how to keep its appeal while dialing back its strength. We don't want it to hard counter specific Killers, and ideally, the cooperative buff should be what pushes Vigil into being a good Perk, not the ability to dial up personal strength in chase so much."
I don't have the data or anything but at least anecdotally, even while people were dooming about SM potentially becoming dashslop I don't think there was that much unhelpful anger or etc, I think people were grateful we got a chance to give feedback before it ever made it to PTB
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…Eh, I think if you're spending on the Bloodweb specifically to farm Iris, manually spending for it is not that difficult an ask, you can just click on whatever's red on the bloodweb then click the center?
I'm not exactly against this feature or anything but I don't really feel making farming Iridescent addons slightly more convenient is a good use of dev resources.
A better use might be changing some of the things the Bloodweb actually gives you, so you feel a bit less like your BP is being wasted by getting Common drops. Eg. Common BP offerings have been garbage forever, would be nice if BHVR did something about that. Or more addon passes so you might feel better about getting a variety of addons, rather than only having a tiny handful of useful ones
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I was going to respond to this myself, but this is the future, so I'm going to just let a megacorporation think for me.
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- This is a balance change that would primarily buff Nurse.
- I actually think it is good when characters have downsides which change their playstyle and games that gleefully pave over character downsides in the name of just embracing powercreep usually do not end well (eg. Tekken 8)
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I'm personally a bit unsure how exactly Scratch/D.P would play (wondering if something from Control might wind up working better as a Killer candidate) but I would never say no to more Remedyverse content in DbD
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I would go with the former explanation. Jason ran into the Unknown in the woods, then gets taken after he beats the tar out of Unknown, specifically here:
Something twitches in the puddle, as if thin threads of muscle
twine back together. The Slasher looks around. The mist that permeates
this forest turns black.In the gloom, he glimpses visions of skittish, fearful people
roaming the forests. He storms through the dark cloud, wisps parting to
reveal a young woman, olive skinned, scarf around her neck.Her eyes
widen in terror. He swings his machete.A point of evidence: Jason found Unknown inside a tent, alongside some suppllies like rope and hacksaw. While Survivors can probably make use of more supplies in lore than we see ingame, that stuff seems too handy IMO for The Entity to actively allow into a Trial.
This naturally poses an odd question: What's Unknown doing outside the Trials? Is this a prequel to it being taken? Is this an alternate universe where Unknown got bodied and Jason got taken instead? Does The Entity let Unknown out for walkies?
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@supersonic853 said:
Yeah idk how difficult it is to look at least used perks and just number buff them. If dark devotion already has 45 seconds in the code. Is it that difficult to go in and make it 50 for instance? I would think thats very easy to do 1 person could even do it. Like the doctor shock thing wasnt even much of a animation change we talking 0.05 so lol. If they even just did that id be happy. And they get 3 months to do this. It just feels like miss management if they cant have someone at least number tweaking.
It's not a difficult thing to do, but to play devil's advocate there have been times small numbers buffs have backfired, like in Hex: Thrill of the Hunt's case. And the Doctor thing was the inverse, people got mad that they were such conservative numbers changes.
I still agree and think they should do small numbers changes, but there are more risks to doing it than just the technical side, which is obviously dirt easy with just changing variables.
Anyway as for the OP, I do agree. For experienced players, balance updates ARE content patches! If a Perk is so obviously bad I've never even tried using it or barely ever see it in games, a buff that makes it usable is essentially adding new content to the game.
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I can get behind the idea of trying to give some of these nonviable Perks some quick and dirty fixes.
Treacherous Crows: The aura reveal is a common sense fix I absolutely support. But lowering the Invocation time ain't gonna budge anything. IMO a reasonable fast fix would be taking Broken off it, that will free people up to actually play around with it despite it remaining a very bad aura perk
Road Life: Can you not get Tokens while broken? I thought it was just an effect to make sure the Perk doesn't uselessly activate while you can't heal yourself. Anyway I think that's a perfectly reasonable fast way to buff it, I would prefer something more ambitious where it's a Self Care alternative but that's definitely not a fast fix
Boon: Illumination: I guess this turns it into a sort of way to "warm up" for cleansing a defended Hex totem, but at this point despite this just being a numbers buff we are basically reworking the Perk. IMO a different fast fix would be to divorce the Perk from the Boon's radius, the 24m is only relevant for the chimes audio cue and the whole team benefits from Illumination at all times. Proportionally to what SWFs can already do with Boon: Discord Call it is a very tame info perk
Friendly Competition, Full Circuit, Soft Spoken: Now that Diminishing Returns is in the game I can absolutely get behind doing this.
Better Than New: We have Diminishing Returns now, but I think a 50% heal speed buff still shouldn't be totally underestimated. This is a more ambitious buff but I honestly would not be against adding Vault Speed to its action speed buffs, as long as Diminishing Returns applies if it's comboed with Finesse.
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I do get not wanting the situation around Krasue's PTB to ever happen again, (and that "just number changes" have still sometimes resulted in extremely oppressive Perks) but I think there is a happy medium to be found where a few balance ideas are slipped in alongside content updates without needing to overshadow them.
In particular, I think concentrating balance changes into fewer, bigger updates rather than spreading them out might raise the risk of Krasue's situation happening again. It just won't overshadow a Killer release when it happens.
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I can't remember who it was who originally proposed this, but if anyone should actually do the "just give Killers a gun" meme, it should be Art. Him having a relatively weak main power which is the part of his kit genuinely supposed to be scary, until eventually getting fed up and pulling out a Glock fits perfectly and would be especially funny within the context of DbD.
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I don't really agree Jason is powercreeping too much, at least based on my impressions.
- I won't debate that Demogorgon has been powercrept, but IMO this has more to do with it having the worst traversal power in the game for no clear reason rather than the dash itself
- Pyramid Head's "real power" was never the cages or the mini mori. You could argue his ability to tunnel off cages used to be a major strength but that is no longer really the case, and mini moris do not save that much time.
- Spirit can attack out of Phase, she will be fine
- Dracula has two other Powers, he will be fine (plus bat form can end anywhere, unlike Jason who has deadzones)
- I think there's more of an argument that Xeno has too many unjustified downsides, but it's worth saying Xeno can absolutely spam tail attack while Springtrap needs to wait for a sluggish cooldown and Jason has to use a prop to replenish it which can often involve walking away from a chase
- Re. Springtrap, just eyeballing it Springtrap's walk speed while charging axe throw still seems faster than Jason while charging the spear, and I think Springtrap's recovery after axe throw is also much faster. Plus Springtrap of course has the heavy arc gimmick that Jason doesn't, and free Undetectable.
- I have utterly no idea why you bring up Sadako because she has nothing in common with any of these Killers what is she doing here
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4081133#Comment_4081133
According to actual official stats provides by bhvr, kaneki has an 8.1% pick rate at high mmr. Blight has 7.6%. Wesker has 5.4%. Even myers is higher with 4.7%. Springtrap is sitting at 4.1% at high mmr. Springtrap is only 5.6% across broad mmr. He's literally being outpicked by Myers. Myers.
Ok, using those stats from the end of March, he is being outpicked by the 2nd most popular Killer in the game in broad MMR, 4th most popular in high MMR. In the broad MMR range, he is the 3rd most popular Killer in the game like the Nightlight stats suggested, in high MMR he is the 5th.
In what world is the 3rd-5th most popular Killer in the game a failure everyone has forgotten about? This feels like a Square Enix shareholder report bruh
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4081037#Comment_4081037
Holy assumptions batman. Kaneki, blight, and myers are more popular than Springtrap. Guess what they all have? Dashslop. For all the hype around a fnaf chapter, he is only sitting around 5%. That's miserable for one of, if not the most wanted license, maybe save Friday the 13th. He should be sitting at at least 8 or 9% for how much people were begging for him. Unfortunately no dashslop, so a measly 5% he remains. The same will happen to Jason, which was the point of my comment.
it seems you clearly hate DBD, so why bother playing?
Nuance is a spectacular thing once someone is able to identify it. I know you're trying your hardest to dunk on me, but you're going to have to try better than sarcastically suggesting Skull Merchant as a "good" killer in my book lol.
…Just checking Nightlight now, that "measly 5%" puts Springtrap as the 3rd most popular Killer in the game. Wesker and Ghoul are the only ones above him around 5.5%. This is consistent with previous lists where 5% is usually the average for superstar, highly popular Killers. Springtrap is undeniably keeping up with the dashslop.
The only way any Killer in this game can approach double digit popularity anymore is to be a new release. Expecting Springtrap to be pulling 8-9% usage a year after his release is just silly
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The phrase "Standing invitation" has been used to refer to Jason and Pennywise, meaning BHVR not only want to do the chapter, but are ready to get started pretty much the moment the IP holders can agree. If these invite letters are the standing invitations, that could mean there's an additional IP under that same condition right now.
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I can agree that, in theory, there is a line. I don't like the idea of BHVR teeing up red herrings for the purposes of gathering marketing data or etc.
However, I don't think it was crossed. Nothing about the teasers were "misleading", and the reason why Pennywise/Slenderman seemed to have evidence is because The Entity is comparable to both of them, esepcially Pennywise. If you filtered out that stuff that could be explained as The Entity itself, Jason seemed like the frontrunner even before the cabin stream started.
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The announcement only says "New Killer" so I would assume this is a Paragraph chapter. No Survivor or map.
MAYBE at most there could be some non-licensed or pseudo-licensed map, like MacMillan Estate gets a new map or something and the only thing Jason about it is the shack. But I would not count on it.
This might be in part a license holder thing. Jason Universe own Jason, but New Line Cinema still own "Friday The 13th", hence why every 13 reference has been a copyright free wink rather than directly saying those three words. I don't understand the weeds of exactly what that means- I understand for example Jason Universe are making a Crystal Lake TV show and that is apparently fine- But I think things like locations from F13 movies or characters who aren't Jason are still on slightly risky legal grounds.
If I was in BHVR's shoes, after waiting for YEARS for these people to work out these IP rights, I would just be desperate not to jinx this. They want Jason, I want Jason, everyone wants Jason. The warm bodies he butchers or decor he paints in blood are nowhere near as important as getting the man himself.
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@Astel said:
That is cool but what would be his possible power though? Only thing I can imagine is throwing machete or something like that
The popular community suggestion I saw a bunch in the early days, and I still support, is that Jason should revolve around weapon-swapping, to emulate the improvised arsenal he has in his source material.
IIRC the ONLY Killer we've ever gotten who can do something like that is Oni.
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Very cool! Jason is the best fit for 10 years of DbD, he has been a long time coming.
My excitement is a bit tempered by the fact the F13 license is still shorn in half, Myers left before Jason got here, it is seemingly a Paragraph chapter so unless it tries to combo in some major balancing changes (please don't) it will probably feel like an underwhelming patch, they weren't able to actually line up Jason with a Friday the 13th date… but still, BHVR have completed their collection of classic slashers with only a few asterisks.
Pretty soon, we'll have Michael Myers, Leatherface, Chucky, Jason, and two guys you can pretend are from Wes Craven movies in the same game, that's pretty incredible.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
with a pinch of salt, The cabin is mentioned in Unknowns add-ons I'm certain, and so is the campsite, the second "Killer" has a mask listed in the addons too, it might be all things wicked part 2.
Unknown is known to mess with electronics also. it also ties into All things wicked's teasers.To quickly check this, because this is a very good catch and plenty of other people have been thinking this is an ATW sequel as this teaser has been ongoing:
A campsite and missing campers are indeed mentioned in Blurry Photo.
A cabin/shed of some kind is actually mentioned twice in Unknown's addons:
Our cabin we've been getting familiar with for nearly 12 hours now likely isn't the shed mentioned in Homemade Mask because it doesn't seem to be in anyone's backyard, and people are presumably already dead/abducted with no signs of being dragged in there.
It COULD be the cabin mentioned in Front-Page article, but I doubt a family actually lives in that tiny thing, so they must've been hiding- and I'd be a bit surprised if they have been hiding for so long, even while hearing fireworks or etc.
A forest is mentioned in Victim's Map, though if it's relevant to this incident, it would surely be someone following up on these disappearances rather than this night itself.
And final note- The weird chittering/animal noises I mentioned earlier could've perhaps been this rabbit's death gurgles.
EDIT: That was fun to theorise about, but the answer was obvious I suppose ;) Welcome to the Fog, buddy
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I've caught the past ~4-5 hrs, what I remember off the top of my head:
- As time went on, day eventually became night. The barely visible flame of a campfire was around for several hours to the left and fluctuated from very bright to embers to now nothing.
- Fog rolled in and eventually got very thick, it has since rolled back but is still somewhat around
- Eventually fireworks started going off for several minutes with noises of people celebrating
- There have been various noises (besides these crickets I want to strangle them at this point), I think there was a distant scream at one point, and some weird animal chittering?
- At one point the cabin's power seemingly overloaded and the lightbulb inside shattered
- Two people begun looking around with flashlights seemingly looking for something/someone. (though they didn't speak) Eventually one of them returned alone, again with a flashlight, this time moving around in a much more panicked way
- Intermittent visual/audio distortions like has been happening across the whole stream, just got another one while I was writing this. I THINK based on the flashlight people we could actually infer those flickers are syncing up with people dying off camera, but that is just a guess
- Two times, the view completely changed for a few seconds- Once to a Trial-ified version of the cabin with an alternating red/yellow pallette and a visible hook, and again to just a view of a Generator illuminated in darkness
- Unknown made a brief cameo dashing past the cabin
- A large figure begun aura farming with dramatic music far in the distance. Cannot tell any detail other than it's probably a large man. (before anyone screams JASON, it could've very easily been Trapper)
- Oh, and the cabin door just briefly creaked open from the inside and slammed shut, that's grand
So, my interpretation is that this is a quiet spot in the woods, some people have been celebrating, and they have been picked off slowly by Unknown and at least one other person. I'm pretty sure at this point that someone's been inside the cabin this whole time, probably Jason trying to get a wink of sleep with all these crickets nearby
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A pretty clear example of the consequences of booting the staff who were previously able to execute great ARG content like Unknown's. Someone with their experience would've spotted the issue with advertising what is shaping up to be a 10+ hr "wait and see" livestream like this.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the idea, but you have to set expectations.
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@Feather said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4080229#Comment_4080229
imo 2 seconds is enough. We could speculate if its good or not, testing would be necessery. I see this like this: Less distance = Survivour needs to use it earlier and not when killer is touching them, which imo is very annoying for killers that cannot catch up. Seeing survivour run before could change some interactions. Survivour needing to use it earlier could mean they could misuse it
Maybe instead of flatly lowering the time, Sprint Burst could be given a ramp up time on its Haste? Some other numbers could be buffed so it doesn't change the overall amount of distance it grants, but that way if a player uses it when a Killer is right on top of them, it won't stop a hit, and if a Survivor is baiting a Hold W with Sprint Burst, they're forced to reveal that they're doing that at least slightly earlier.
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The Vigil nerf concept I can get behind. I think I might prefer something like a numbers reduction to 50% and making Hindered from Killer powers immune to modifiers by Perks, but removing Hindered is likely easier to code and a straightforward way to pull back Vigil's overall power level.
The Sprint Burst one I'm more iffy on. I do want Sprint Burst nerfed, but I think a nerf needs to be considerate of the fact it's the free Survivor Exhaustion perk- Under your nerf, it's hard to imagine any player who's not good enough to take advantage of Sprint Burst storage ever doing well with it. Ideally Sprint Burst should lean more beginner friendly IMO.
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This calls for some detective work:
We're having an issue where all you have to find is basic movement and the whole team becomes affected by it
It's a bit of a mangled sentence, but I'm pretty sure this refers to The Henry guessing Survivor basic movement through walls, and getting Worldbreaker on the whole team as a reward.
I humbly propose we rename The Lich "Purple Guy" from now on, to ensure he is never confused with any other Killer again.
Re. the actual content of the post, while The Forty-Second is a very strong Killer I'm not sure him being able to farm Worldbreaker off a weak link is that problematic as far as solo queue design goes? At least not compared to, say, a Blight or Billy tunnelling a weak link out, or someone having their first ever Sadako match, or someone not watching out for Ghostface at the start of a match.
I could perhaps see a change where 4 Worldbreaker Tokens no longer allows Worldbreaker to be triggered off hits, and Creel just straight up damages Survivors in that state as if he was already in Worldbreaker? And make all 4 Survivors having Worldbreaker stacks trigger a permanent Worldbreaker, to ensure he's not locking himself out of part of his own power.
But I'm not sure how much of that is actually solving serious issues with the character, and how much is just fiddling with something that doesn't need to be fiddled with.
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I'm not against maybe adjusting Diminishing Returns (personally I think it could just stop at halving the efficacy of stacked buffs, it makes simpler math and still does a good job smashing apart value) but it's worth remembering the reason it exists is because things like healing builds can quickly stop becoming "fun little builds" and instead become utterly gamebreaking if numbers on a balance patch or a new perk are badly tuned
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@Rapid99 said:
It's cool to honor the horror genre, but… he's just so boring. He's literally the generic slasher movie killer. The poster boy of it, some would say.
Genuinely what can you do for him that would make him cooler to have than DARTH VADER, and not even just cooler. But unique enough to justify his existence.
There used to be a couple of "community consensus" powers I would see for certain Killers, Alien and Jason being most prominent, where seemingly most people could agree:
- The Xenomorph should have some kind of stance swap between crawling and walking upright. (which did actually happen, but in a very boring way tbh. I honestly don't like that crawler mode is a straight upgrade to upright mode and a half decent Alien will never be seen outside of crawler)
- Jason should be the Killer who gets to wield alternate weapons rather than being stuck with the machete. He has a huge improvised arsenal across his source material, he should be constantly changing what he does to adapt to the weapons he has on hand.
The idea of a "slasher sandbox" has never been tried in DbD before, even though it's arguably a core element of older slasher movies, and trying to replicate it was a huge part of Naughty Bear's design. I think not only is there room for a power for Jason, I think BHVR have left that room open deliberately.
i mean it's also possible that'll get playtested out of existence because it's "not fun" and he'll just be a triple dash Wesker without an infection mechanic that might be okay too i guess -
I don't think this would be a chest fix (IMO baseline changes need to happen for that. I really think Chests should just be worth doing as a default and Perks should go from there) but as an idea for a new class of Perks, yeah I love this idea. A Perk that gives Survivors a side objective, but gives them agency for doing the side objective rather than turning it off entirely. It would be difficult to communicate to new Survivors, but that's not a new issue for Perks.
Another possible take could be the Relics having benefits for Survivors, or the Survivor holding it. Eg. A Relic that passively makes Totems take much longer to cleanse. The Survivor holding the Relic is immune to the effect and cleanses totems even faster, or they can break it to replace the debuff with something else.
It's got a lot of ripe potential for lots of different Perk designs, so I'm a fan!
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This is also what I would like to see too as an upgrade to SoloQ communication. We don't need detailed emotes or voice chat, just a quick set of things to communicate these simple things. I don't think it should come with a bubble ping but other than that I think it'd be a great addition.
To be specific about what I think should be on such a wheel:
- "Danger near me"
- "It's safe near me"
- "I'll repair generators" (at end of trial, changes to "I'll open gates")
- "I'll cleanse totems"
- "I'll unhook"
- "We should heal"
Six simple prompts, little to no potential for BMing with a cooldown for spam, covers most important Survivor comms with the exception of specific communication about areas on the map, like clock callouts or specifically saying which generator you're working on
I think the best route for changing that would be some UI icons for specific locations, like shack/main/basement, but that obviously doesn't apply equally for every map, and would probably need some custom UI icons for certain maps to communicate things like main building on Pale Rose being a boat. It would most likely need bespoke landmark icons on many maps
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I like Plague, but not sure where else you'd be taking her lore. She's defined by her utterly unwavering devotion, and there's already a good origin story for her where her devotion is tested pretty much as far as it could go.
I would really like to see a post-abduction story from her POV in the Fog, but that goes for every character in the game honestly.
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First off, gratz on posting for the first time, don't let any negative responses get you down too much.
Anyway, IMO this system is a bit too overcomplicated, I don't see the need for a 2 gens left gradient, or splitting remote kicks vs manual kicks (esp. with Turn Back The Clock providing manual remote kicks).
And besides, I like the gen kick limit, and don't agree with so severely reducing its presence. In general, I vastly prefer having slightly limited, but powerful baseline kicks than the sometimes very heated gen defense situations that arose before that rework.
It did disproportionately affect Hag, but it also disproportionately affects Singularity as well, a very dangerous 3-genner esp. after his buffs since release, and would be a nightmare with such a lenient gen kick limit as this. Reminder that Singularity makes solid use of Surge, a Perk mostly held back by its tendency to hit the kick limit, and under your suggestion, Surge presumably wouldn't even track its procs on gens until the final generator.
The issue of setup killers not having enough time to setup is true, but it's always been true and I don't really blame the gen kick limit for it. The ability for setup killers to give up 4/5 generators and just focus on maintaining a 3 gen was more a bandaid for that problem rather than a solution.
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I feel the same way about this as I do about giving Survivors individual abilities. You cannot establish a feature as cosmetic only, then go back and make it a gameplay feature. Charms would be less problematic because at least in that case player identity isn't as tied up in it, but it would still mean people'd switch off the ones they actually like and have been able to freely use for years, in exchange for the ones that grant the best bonuses
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I don't think the hammer actually needs a rebalance? Especially if Survivors aren't healing, there will be times where a hammer hit is faster than trying to fish for a chainsaw hit. If the Billy player isn't taking those opportunities, that's due to their playstyle, it's not really the hammer's fault. They probably just want to keep learning the chainsaw, or consider it a matter of pride that they minimise M1 hits.
You want a change that forces players to use a feature, which they don't use as often as you think they should, not because it's not strong enough, but because they personally do not want to use it and are having fun playing without it… Sorry, even if your Heat Transfer state was actually well made, designing with this kind of intent never ends well.
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I would argue testing balance experiments as events rather than PTBs isn't unprecedented, Blood Moon essentially is testing a "gas" system for Generators. I like doing that so support it here, but Blood Moon has revealed a pitfall in that unlike straight balance changes, Events have a greater obligation to be interesting for both sides in comparison to base 1v4.
As for your specific ideas:
- Basekit optional unhook warping: I think this is a neat idea and worth testing out in a scenario like this, so sure. I have no idea if it would be a good resolution for tunnelling, but we currently don't have a Perk or etc that does a similar thing so hard to understand how it would affect the flow of games until it is tested.
- Anti genrush: This seems to be a similar, less extreme version of an idea you posted in a different thread, my opinion's the same, I think a timer like this would moreso encourage hiding if it ever came into play rather than actually stop people from rushing gens.
- Anti slug: I'm not sure how much this really changes, given that in these scenarios where 2-3 Survivors are going down, Survivors probably don't struggle to get their recoveries 99'd that much.
- Basekit KI at start of match: I don't really like this. Yes, when and how Killers find the first Survivor is a bit random, but it's usually acceptably fair on both sides. In extreme situations where a Survivor goes down really quick or a Killer takes truly ages to find anyone and it really puts them on the backfoot for the rest of the match, it's usually a skill issue.
- Thick fog for indoor Killers: Honestly this could be a basekit feature for all Killers, as long as the fog feature isn't ruining the aesthetic of maps, I think stopping SWFs from using clock system callouts on a Killer that's 50+ meters away would be a good thing for the game. I personally think if testing this feature alone, it could honestly just be forced onto base 1v4s for a month without the need to split the queue.
Overall while I think the idea of hook warping is solid, and testing some kind of big reenvisioning of the game as an event makes sense, the other stuff I don't think warrants a special event to test it, so the idea doesn't quite come together.
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Recently, I am pretty on board with the idea of a "game time normalisation" mechanic that makes Survivor objectives a bit less efficient if their uptime is insane and a bit more efficient in comparison if they're wandering around getting lost, so I'm ok with this in principle. I also think changes to the endgame could be an interesting idea to experiment with in achieving that.
As for the specific method though, not really a fan, sorry. During that phase of the game, Survivors can easily hide, so I think in practice it would just slow down games the Survivor team has essentially already won. If we're elongating the endgame this much, it's also of course worth mentioning most endgame Killer perks would need rebalancing.
A game time normaliser/survivor objective speed scaling mechanic should probably just be applied to Generators, as they're the far more significant part of the game
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Yeah, I think Fast Track would be cooler as a direct activation rather than a passive on Great skill check things, and I think if BHVR designed the perk from scratch today, that's what they'd do.
Sidenote, but I'd also prefer Fast Track just not being an altruism perk and actually fufilling the "selfish Survivor" idea. IMO it could've been healthy as essentially a teamwide antitunnel on gens; No tokens for first hooks, a small number of tokens that's not quite worth the perk slot for 2nd hooks, a big bounty of tokens that justifies the perk slot if a Survivor dies.
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@Crowman said:
I do not think having to put in a little bit of work for free gen progression is really that big of a deal. It's just no longer a perk that everyone must run because it was so overtuned giving free gen progression for the killer just playing the game.
I think it is at least a moderately-sized deal, because frankly IMO the most egregious issue is the fact that the idea of Fast Track has been thrown out of the window. Yun-jin has one of the most interesting perk identities out of the Survivor cast, and now Fast Track is a perk that rewards altruism… What?
I get the argument that Fast Track penalises Killers for getting hooks, but that has not been a real problem for 99% of its existence while its numbers were weak. It being overbuffed for one patch doesn't change that, and it's not a problem you can't solve while preserving the fundamental idea of being a perk for people who want to focus on gens over altruism.
This feels like a pattern of behaviour- no pun intended, where the theme is thrown out with the gameplay at a moment's notice. It happened to Knock Out around a year ago, but at least in that case, fine, KO would've been problematic regardless of if the Perk was strong or not, and even if I wish the theme was preserved, it was an emergency option done to prevent a trending and very annoying playstyle… But Fast Track had an emergency option, they could've reverted the Perk to its previous version, or gutted the numbers on the current version.
I'm not saying gameplay theme should come first before everything, but it should matter, right?
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Carpenter's The Thing is my personal most wanted license in the game and currently up there as one of the most prestigious horror licenses left, I am very, very much in favor of making it happen. The Thing's theme uses a similar Dies Irae motif as DbD's main theme, so it already sounds like DbD main menu music.
However, doing it as suggested here, as has been discussed many times, will not work because of SWF's existence. The game wasn't initially designed with SWF as a feature, and I think consideration for a Killer design like this was probably part of the reason BHVR hesitated.
…However, Chucky was also a "we want him, but it'll never work" example from the community for donkey's years, but all it took was some out of the box thinking and he fits into DbD like a glove.
Please don't necro it because it's old, but I posted about The Thing a while ago and TL:DR, I think you can represent The Thing and capture the sense of paranoia without needing the full leap into a social deduction game. If being assimilated was a status effect, so Survivors could be playing as The Thing without knowing it and need to suspect themselves as well, that fixes the SWF/on comms problem. I'm sure there's probably other solutions that capture the feeling of the movie without needing the full Among Us conversion.
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accelerated unhook bar during camping, possibly a progressive one
I think this is how the Resolve meter already works.
self pickup, not like the perk but make it so if ALL remaining survivors are downed […] allow at least 1 survivor to pick themselves up
I appreciate that slugging can be aggravating and it should be kept under control/try to make it more interesting on the Survivor side instead of aggravating and boring, but it should be part of the game. It provides Killers an important tactical choice when downing Survivors. This would essentially delete slugging as a strategy, except in situations where you're leaving a single Survivor downed for additional pressure.
increased wiggle effectiveness
Wiggling out is not supposed to happen often. I think this is a classic game design mistake of thinking because you don't see a situation happen often, it must be a pointless feature of the game and that's a problem that needs fixing. No, wiggling out is only supposed to happen if a Killer misplays, and/or a Survivor team puts effort into making it happen. That's exactly how it should be. If you think wiggling should be better, IMO you should be suggesting buffing its related Perks rather than buffing basekit wiggling.
make the ENTIRE pallet hitbox count for the killer and don't allow blocking of it by survivors or killers unless it's via perk […] standing in the center of a pallet up against it prevents it from being thrown
I personally don't see pallet hitboxes being too small, and don't understand when the situation you describe of a Killer standing in the center of a pallet hitbox to prevent it being thrown would actually matter? If you're close enough to drop the pallet in that situation, you're also close enough for the Killer to hit you, so if anything, the game's saving you from wasting a pallet, right? Let me know if I'm just not seeing the vision though.
remove the ability for killers to see who's been hooked and how many times
IIRC this is how it used to work when the hook state UI was implemented. It doesn't do anything about hard tunnelling where the Killer is almost exclusively focusing on one person though, it punishes Killers who are spreading out hooks, might have multiple people on death hook at once, and might forget which ones. I personally think this is an instance where the game should be designed around giving Killers this info, and trying to make sure forcing Survivors out ASAP is no longer a winning strategy, rather than obscuring it.
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Bleeding out faster in the 2v1 is a good option to have, though I think I'd prefer some wider rework to the 2v1 situation so it doesn't boil down into both Survivors waiting for the other to die.
For full on slugging, I think the issue is more so Survivors lacking agency. Waiting for 75 seconds is still quite a while and against a slugger there's a good chance you will go down again pretty soon.
Maybe Survivors could get skillchecks for self-pickup, and once their recovery meter is 99'd, they have a higher crawl speed?
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I agree that the way it currently is feels uninspired and samey. According to them playtesting is why they scrapped it, but immediately throwing out thematic and interesting ideas because "playtesters say…" does feel like it can backfire, eg. the Myers rework. Apparently "mental load" was the issue? To me it doesn't feel worth abandoning the whole concept of retributive justice, which I think is the core of this Killer premise.
Your blessing idea is… I don't think super great though? It's not clear if Exile is something Judgement cares that much about inflicting to jump through the hoops you propose. Might as well throw my own hat in the ring:
Survivors develop Sin when they perform specific actions. They have 1 sin at once with the most recent one overriding the previous. Sin only affects if a Survivor can be Exiled, and Exile cleanses Sin. Survivors see their Sins, the Judgement briefly sees their recent Sin on a Special Attack hit. Sin modifies a Survivor's experience in Exile slightly. There are 7 in total:
- Pride: Blinded the Killer / Exile takes more effort to escape
- Wrath: Stunned the Killer / Return from Exile in the Basement, with stat buffs as if you had just been unhooked
- Lust: Completed a heal on another Survivor / Return from Exile with 60s Mangled + Haemorrhage
- Envy: Took a Protection Hit / Return from Exile Blinded for 60s
- Greed: Opened/Rummaged a Chest / Drop your item upon entering Exile
- Gluttony: Cleansed/Blessed a Totem / Return from Exile Exhausted for 60s
- Sloth: Hid in a locker / You have 5% Hindered in Exile and 10s after leaving
The Judgement gains a small bonus for each unique Sin it's punished. I think just making the power incrementally easier to get hits with, like a wider beam, makes sense. The Judgement however should not feel reliant on these buffs in the slightest and should be able to cruise along even with like 2 unique Sins comfortably enough.
The above idea is kind of the reverse concept of "punishing bad Survivor behaviour" I see sometimes, I tried to lean into the idea of the Killer having a warped interpretation of innocent actions as if they were sins. I do admittedly love the idea of nuking Survivors because they tbagged at exit gates, but things like "oh, punish Survivors for screwing around instead of unhooking teammates!" does not really have legs as a Killer power mechanic IMO.
In general, I don't think an idea like the above is "too much mental load". On a casual level it is essentially just cool flavor and is only something higher-skilled players should really be forming tactics around. I don't think Judgement needs to be or should be winning/losing games based on whatever the Sin system is, it should be a flavorful and fun idea to sell the fantasy of being punished for things you've done, not a third health state