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Lexilogo
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This post mostly covers the fairly common sense changes, which I agree with. The current system of essentially never using these BP offerings just sucks, and I think it secretly discourages players from switching up characters if they're playing someone who doesn't have any strong BP offerings to burn.
One idea I had in a much older post I'd like to bring up again: BP offerings could also be mixed up beyond the bounds of just giving a flat % bonus. Eg. Some of the Glyphs could be repurposed as offering effects, providing reliable BP that doesn't rely on multipliers, but you need to go out of your way to do that side objective
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1. I wouldn't say so, Killers' means of triggering Undetectable are mostly the same today as they were a few years ago IIRC. Hex: Overture of Doom is a fairly recent Undetectable Perk, but is not super popular. Unforeseen is a good Trail of Torment alternative, but it's nearly 2 years old now so I wouldn't call it "recent", it was probably around before you took your break, and it is very similar to Trail of Torment.
2. Not really, even without Perks to counter it stealth is considered among the weakest playstyles for Killers. Many years ago Spine Chill was popular but I'd argue the fact it countered stealth Killers was kinda incidental, the clutch action speed improvement was just as much a reason why it was popular.
3. Once again I'd say no, just because I don't think Undetectable has really changed since you've been gone, I think it's just a matter of adjustment after coming back to the game.
Both Killers you vsed sound like they were playing unconventionally- A Chucky who's Undetectable for that long is likely using an Undetectable Perk, so they're combining a stealth Killer with a stealth Perk which is pretty kooky, and that Huntress was using relatively unpopular Addons + Huntress has her Lullaby so she's rather bad at stealthing compared to other Killers, (bear in mind, Wooden Fox and Soldier's Puttee's effects are effectively impossible to overlap) most people wouldn't try it.
Assuming you were playing in soloQ, when the best counter to stealth (and, to a certain extent, one of the best counters to Killers in general) is SWF callouts over comms, having this experience makes sense, you're rusty & were playing against two people running kooky playstyles who could completely scramble your brains from what you'd normally expect out of matches.
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I believe the way this works is Demo physically travels at superspeed underneath the map, so this wouldn't be a cosmetic thing, it would be a rework to how his portals work, even if it wouldn't change gameplay too much.
I like the idea of the Upside Down having a physical appearance in game, even if it would be a Springtrap-esque import into the map rather than a Freddy-esque coat of paint for the map that I think most people would ideally prefer, and this would be a decent way to do it. I'd like a way for Survivors to see it as well, maybe while cleansing portals they see a faded version of the Upside Down projected onto their surroundings?
Unfortunately this all doesn't seem particularly realistic, especially since Demo doesn't seem to be getting touched much at all in spite of Vec… Uh, Henry releasing. But if Demogorgon gets a rework with this kind of idea being viable, I would like to see it
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- What problem with the game do you think the Survivor radius would solve? From my POV, if anything Survivors could afford to be a bit stealthier basekit, this is the opposite.
- Basekit Generator repair progress indiactors also IMO just removes skill expression from the game. Basekit Killers needing to rely on generator noises and the visuals of the pistons to track repair % is a good system.
- Killers being able to see where Totems are is fine, but seeing Dull Totems by default would be visual clutter. Seeing all totems can just be tied into a Perk if it's important for that Perk's design.
- The idea of basekit Survivor slowdown for injured Survivors is interesting. I think I'd be fine with it as long as it's a minor effect, like a 2-5% difference, I still want Survivors to be tempted to skip healing. I also don't think healthy Survivors working on the same gen should be sped up, that will make the start of games more polarising.
- And yeah, Art the Clown would be a great addition!
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This is kind of a perfect example of why I personally feel the new slate of Killers seemingly designed with "high A tier" as an explicit design goal has been so unhealthy for the game, even when they aren't explicitly S tier.
Having 110 killers in this game is good for variety, who cares about balancing? Huntress being 110 makes her more interesting to play as and against. Are we removing her lullaby next? Even Killers like Chucky, currently IMO the most unjustifiable 110 Killer in the game, I think he should be balanced around 110 instead of just making him 115.
I do understand that poor traversal can feel like an impossible balancing problem, especially for Slinger IMO, but I think a bettter route might be experimenting with Perks that give regular walking Killers better traversal so Killers like Slinger have that option to patch up their weaknesses. It's not really fair that already strong Killers who benefit massively from reading Survivors through walls have loads of strong aura read choices, but a guy like Slinger who has to limp between gens has very few options to make that faster.
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Am I crazy for thinking DbD's IP collaborations should be done thoughtfully, not only with the right IPs and adapting the right parts of those IPs?
I know the game has loosened up a lot more in what it considers viable for DbD, but there should still be some standards. Rather than just grabbing the main villain from whatever IP, there should be real thought into how they'll fit into the Fog.
…Which is exactly why we need Shockwave instead! THAT guy could get The Entity's attention. Megatron can go be a legendary skin, like the loser he is.
…To be serious, BHVR apparently did experiment with a giant Killer in really early development, but even back then, before there were 9+ years of spaghetti code layered atop the game, the idea was thrown out for being too hard to execute. And shrinking down a Transformer to the max sizes current DbD's maps are built around would be extremely cursed.
After Chucky actually happened, I want to keep an open mind to more out-there gameplay ideas, like giant Killers, or Killers that have vehicles/vehicular properties (The devs say they want Christine someday), or Killers that introduce more verticality to the game or etc, but such ideas would need a "DbD 2.0" update that acts as a full remake of the game's code first. The game needs one anyway, hopefully we get it sometime in the next ~5 years
I also do think, even considering a dream execution that can make Transformers feel like it fits, it would be an uphill battle for me to buy into it as a DbD DLC concept personally
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Higher quality screenshot, just in case anyone else doesn't know what Homelander™, from hit Amazon Prime Original™ show The Boys™ looks like:
…I think we need a big neon sign somewhere saying "EVIL CHARACTERS AND GORE DOES NOT EQUAL HORROR" so the community and BHVR can keep that in mind for future collabs. Even in The Boys™'s most body horror moments, I do not think it is horror adjacent enough to pass the DbD vibe check, it's essentially on the same horror adjacency level as ASOIAF/Game of Thrones
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@Skitten56 said:
Just make it mapwide imo. The sound design is really nice so I don't want to see it go but survivors with VTR abuse it and make her stealth pointless for sure.
Maybe it could be constant on Survivors that have reached at least 3 Condemn stacks?
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This would be a cool idea, but has a set of compounding problems that can sadly apply to a lot of other cool ideas:
- This would need to be done for a VERY large Killer roster
- This would need to be tweaked and tested on every map in the game
- This would not be possible for Killers with revoked licenses (Pinhead, soon Myers too) which could leave a distinct impression of a lower quality standard
Personally, I am more in favor of assigning new Basement designs to maps, rather than on a per Killer basis, (eg. Freddy Fazbear's in particular felt like a bad fit for default basement) for much the same reason Hooks used to be Killer customised and are now, with Xeno as the sole exception IIRC, map specific.
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I think the Bloodweb is neat as a fundamental concept, honestly.
- Not being able to buy exactly what you want means there's some degree of resource scarcity rather than just spamming iris every match (though if you're P100 and determined you can still do it) and it means you're at least mildly encouraged to give everything a chance, rather than straight up never buying an addon
- There's a small minigame component to it where you can optimise going for a specific Perk/BP offering you want, or just try to get the entity to eat as much of the web as possible for prestige efficiency
- Provides an honestly decent balance between giving players power progression in a PvP game without barring them from being able to create an effective build quickly (well, the choices of which Perks are General vs which are DLC kinda damage this, but that's not the Bloodweb's problem)
There are a lot of legitimate issues too ofc, especially for Survivors, the frustrating problem of "I want to play YOU, but I don't have any BP right now and my Event Offerings/items/levelled perks/whatever aren't on you, so I'll just go back to my main" should be solved somehow, but I think if the Bloodweb was fully replaced with buying whatever we want on demand with BP, that would be a net negative. Improvements like the bloodpoint autospending system are a better route IMO
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Yes, an animation pass could do the game a lot of good. Don't want to change things for the sake of changing them, but there is room for improvement for stuff you mention like the healing animation.
One I feel is missing: A "fall out of locker" animation, for those cases when a Survivor gets downed while entering a locker.
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Hi, I'll give my thoughts on some of this stuff!
I think BHVR giving Killers specific tags for power classification would be useful, though obviously there's a lot of reasonable debate over what they should be. I personally don't think your tags are the best. Eg. I think most people would call "Swap" Killers "Stance" Killers instead, and characters like Clown whose stances are really just a control scheme technicality shouldn't count. Nobody cares when Clown switches bottles, they do care when Oni pulls out the kanabo.
I would split Killers into the following categories personally, with Killers having multiple tags in order of importance:
- Trap: This killer plants things in advance that come into play later.
- Stealth: This killer can remove their TR.
- Lethal: This killer can instadown, or do double hits so fast they might as well instadown.
- Traversal: This killer can move over long distances to get across the map faster.
- Dash: This killer can move short distances in chase for easier hits.
- Snowball: This killer becomes much more powerful once they get some momentum.
- Tracking: This killer can get information on Survivor activity much easier.
- Ranged: This killer can deal damage through a long range attack.
- Midrange: This killer can deal damage through a short range attack.
- Antiloop: This killer, through indirect means such as slowdown, can turn a safe loop into an unsafe one.
- Status: This killer must inflict a status effect before they can use their full potential.
- Hijack: This killer gives Survivors a complex objective that will likely kill them if ignored.
- Zoning: This killer often bluffs with their ability to control Survivors in chase.
- Stance: This killer changes to an alternate form with different abilities.
I think that's 14 in total. As examples of usage, I'd put Huntress down as Ranged - Lethal, but Trickster down as Lethal - Ranged, because Trickster's ability to multihit is proportionally more important and prominent than in Huntress, but Huntress still derives a lot of her power from it. Nemesis I'd put down as Midrange - Status - Snowball, because in order of importance he has Tentacle Strike, Tentacle Strike has to Contaminate before it can Injure, and Tentacle Strike needs mutation tiers to really start getting dangerous. Some Killers like Dracula would probably need 4 tags, but it'd ideally be best to avoid going any higher than that. (I'd put him down as Stance - Dash - Midrange - Traversal)
Some of these are still very hard concepts to adjudicate and condense down to describe each Killer adequately, but that's the rough starting point I'd use. Would be interested to hear other people's differing opinions/execution.
The second suggestion I just agree with, would be nice to get a dedicated Power screen that has a little more accurate info instead of needing to jump to the wiki for most stuff.
The Killer journal idea is similar to one I had a while back, so yes I agree with it! The main difference between my idea and yours is that I suggested giving Survivors the tips before they face the Killer, when they match with them in the lobby- That way, they potentially get a full minute to read up on the Killer if they need it and get some briefing tips, without needing something like a friend to talk them through it. This is similar to how Loading Screen Tips that already exist spoil what Killer you're against, just pushing it back into the lobby screen so it can be more detailed.
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I think the reasoning was the scrapped Furtive Chase rework.
The very first version of Furtive was seemingly executed during playtesting for the balancing crime of stacking with Monitor, so BHVR added the "while chasing" description so it wouldn't stack with Monitor.
BHVR wanted to bring it back for 9.3 and scrap the while chasing thing which was the main reason old Furtive sucked. This meant it stacking with Monitor was back on the table. Both Monitor and the new-old Furtive came with % modifiers to the TR rather than flat numbers. I don't know if these numbers are multiplicative or additive, so maybe I'm wrong, but I think this means unlike flat TR stacking that could easily theoretically reach a 0 TR, that combo would not completely remove the TR.
Why BHVR were so insistent on doing this instead of implementing something like a minimum TR, or just allowing Killers to reach low TRs considering that it's quite gimmicky compared to just using Undetectable perks, I'm not really sure.
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A few of my personal tips for developing gamesense, because that seems to be where you're struggling at the moment. A lot of it's instinct, but there are some things I can think of:
- Finding Survivors at the start is a matter of understanding their spawn logic. Lethal Pursuer is a really obvious and good shortcut, but Corrupt Intervention is also a good alternative, the gens it blocks often correlates with areas where the Survivors will spawn, and it's inherent slowdown that works better if you have a slow start. In general, simply understanding what gens are furthest from you and going to check should get some decent results.
- Survivors don't teleport. Well, unless you're playing the wacky woohoo purple pizza guy, but even then they don't do it often. When you see one, you should keep track of where they were and what they were doing. Were they working on a gen that's got good progress? They WILL come back there. Did you hook them? Someone's coming for the save, if you can know or at least guess who, you now know where half (if you've found another surv to chase by then, 75%) of the players are. Were they running around the back of main building? You know the direction they were moving in, and those routes can often be habitual. The average Survivor movespeed in a match is probably like 2 m/s, thanks to the time in matches they have to be still, you will be able to develop a sense for where they are at any given time.
- Survivors have plans, learn them. If a Survivor doesn't have a plan, you'll win anyway, so by all means overthink what they're doing. Is this a generic timewaster chase because they got found, or do they have an area they're trying to take you because there's spare pallets, or the gens there are completed, or etc? (this is why I love Batteries Included, it completely inverts these situations from gamelosing chases into nightmare scenarios where someone's hooked on the other side of the map) "What could the Survivor be trying to protect right now?" is a pretty good question to ask, because if you go for the correct answer, you will usually find 1-2 more Survivors at that location. This is especially useful against non-SWFs, because their plans are communicated through action and consensus, which you can see play out ingame more easily.
- Survivors usually don't treat all gens equally. Survivors like prioritising central generators and avoiding 3 gens, both for obvious reasons. This is especially true for characters good at punishing those situations like Singularity or so on. If you can narrow down even 1 generator Survivors seem to be ignoring, that's a massive advantage for finding Survivors quickly. (of course, don't wager the whole match on this…)
- Learn Survivor personalities. I like to split them up as "superstars" vs "sidekicks". Superstars want or are fine with my attention, sidekicks would rather not have it. There's a lot of variance within that ofc, any good Survivor including sidekicks know how to loop and know they need to do their share, and plenty of superstars know when to get on gens, but most Survivors have an element they're most comfortable in, you can use that information. Eg. It's VERY rare I will ever see the best looper in a match ever use a locker to try and lose me.
I know playing Killer when you're outmatched can feel like trying to grab smoke, it can feel frustrating and futile, but once you've built your gamesense, and can actually pull off stuff like a slow head turn into a locker grab with NO apparent clues, the payoff is worth it.
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@UndeddJester said:
Sounds awesome.
All Survivors in the match have been in the Dying State/hooked/dead for at least 25 seconds straight
I might suggest you change this to 35s, as Unbreakable is 23.70s and Plot Twist is 25.6s to recover. If there are ever any other perks that allow a self pick up at the regular recovery rate, the speed is 32s. Admittedly the scenarios this could go wrong are quite unrealistic, but it is possible.
But otherwise, sounds pretty good man!
That's a good point! The edit on this post was it originally being 20 seconds, but then I remembered Unbreakable's time to pick up. I'll bump it up to 30s, considering a self pickup that's slower than that is only hypothetical at the minute. (excluding crawling across the map to an Exponential boon)
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@Steakdabait said:
While i do agree that lightborn just completely turning off an entire playstyle isn't great game design, these changes only actually aid mald squads and still makes lightborn basically immunity to the solo player who decides to bring a light to go for opportunist saves. I don't think there is a way to make lightborn not just a total immunity perk without making it completely useless.
^ This. If we're nerfing Lightborn, I want it to retain total usefulness against bully squads, and the only situation when Survivors are attempting over 4 flashlight saves in a row is in bully squads. I get the intent of "In a real situation, you probably won't make the mistake of being vulnerable to a blind 4 times even against a bully squad" but "real situations" look very different for extremely new players.
IMO the best way to fix the second change would be to invert it. Eg. Lightborn starts with 3/2/1 tokens, and loses 1 each time you are blinded. Once Lightborn has 0 tokens, you become completely immune to blinds for the rest of the Trial. Something like that?
Anyway, I do reluctantly agree that yes, Lightborn making blinds genuinely useless is not great game design. It's one thing for Perks to 1:1 negate each other but invalidating a whole class of items with associated Perks with one Perk does suck. I will say though, that I'll be way less reluctant about a Lightborn change if we can get some basekit bully squad protection in the game for the players that need it.
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I like this kind of RPGmaker horror stuff too, but to be honest Ao Oni never stood out to me that much for anything except being popular, and the Oni itself feels very difficult to translate into DbD- An artstyle that doesn't really fit semi-realistic 3D and with Power material to draw off.
I personally think skins would be a better way to go. I know KIKIYAMA is famous for being hard to get in touch with, but they've been open to things like Yume Nikki getting a manga or reimagining as a platformer by another developer, so I don't think a character like Feng getting a Madotsuki skin is too crazy of an idea.
As for the Ao Oni being a skin for Oni, I can't see a full blown Legendary conversion skin working, but I could see something like Oni being mostly painted blue, wearing less armor, and having an oversized uncanny mask to sell a sort of cosplay, it could be a cool skin.
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@Jay_Whyask said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4034551#Comment_4034551
If you made the terror radius reduction larger & increased the time a chased lingered while using the perk it could be good for sneaking up on nearby survivors.
Maybe -16 meters & survivors remain in chase for 10 seconds after a chase ends.
That would be more likely to provide value, but would still be really weak, the effect wouldn't be strong enough to justify the Perk needing to warm up from hooks, and is still only active during a specific window in a very specific situation, not as useful as M&A helping you passively 24/7.
I do like the ability of a perk that incentivises dropping chase to switch targets by lowering your TR, and the Perk could be buffed further by doing things like removing the hooking warmup- But at that point, this is making a new Perk, not bringing back an old one. I'd love to be proven wrong but I still think the original-original Furtive Chase can't be salvaged, it would have to be reimagined.
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@Jay_Whyask said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4034503#Comment_4034503
Yeah, original Furtive Chase is going to need a large buff if it ever gets reintroduced.
IDK if it could be buffed, the premise of reducing your TR only in chase (or in other words; you are stealthier when you're being observed???) was kinda unsalvageable. The only way to bring back a balanced version of the original Furtive Chase would essentially be making a new Perk.
Anyway though, your idea is still great, salvaging these old Perks would be a good way to bulk up the General Perk pool without waiting for a license to expire. As others have said, the first reworked version of Furtive Chase was awesome, I'd love to see it back, and the BBQ rework was also a good Perk concept.
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@MekAchivmentsFunAgen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4034064#Comment_4034064
I meant to say that one map should be available for 1 or more days. For example, let's say
On Feb 1: Play Map Showcase= Crotus Prenn Asylum
On Feb 2: Play Map Showcase= Racoon City East Wing
On Feb 3: Play Map Showcase= The Decimated Borgo
etc.
They could also run newer maps for longer durations, or increase the duration when a new media for some licensed IP comes out to attract more players (for example, Feb 3-5 could be for Racoon City if there was a new Resident Evil game coming on Feb 7 or something).Ah, I understand. That's more reasonable, I'm not against it seeing as having a single Map Showcase active doesn't seem to have affected queue times that much- Having them active more constantly for older maps wouldn't be a bad thing.
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The map-related achievements issue does really need to be resolved, but to my understanding doesn't Play Map Showcase work on a different queue? Having it permanently for every map would cause matchmaking issues.
I personally think changing the achievements themselves is the better route. I don't understand why Hemophobia ever map-specific, and Outbreak Breakout could be changed to something like "Escape via the Exit Gates on both the East and West wing of RPD".
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This is a pretty well-thought through idea, and the concept of the Entity Accursed status is a very interesting idea to try and make tunnelling less appealing. I do have concerns, though:
- To my understanding from reading, this mechanic would essentially become permanent on the last Survivor to get uniquely hooked, which doesn't feel intentional? I assume it'd actually work something like once every Survivor has experienced EA once, the last Survivor with EA has it expire over a minute like with the others
- I'm a little worried that EA status would still be used aggressively. It doesn't directly make looping easier, but the person with EA does naturally become the optimal Survivor to be engaging the Killer from the Survivor's POV. Maybe EA status could be cleansed over time by working on gens, in addition to the passive decay after another Survivor is marked, that way you could use EA status as an excuse to attempt a godlike chase performance, but more realistically you'd want to jump on a gen ASAP so your team has as little time as possible dealing with the status effect slowing down gen progress?
- On the inverse side, I also think Moris or mini-moris could be used to sidestep EA's biggest downside for Killers, which is that 35 second stay of execution for death hook. If you're bringing a mori, hard tunnelling an EA survivor would only really change that basekit Borrowed Time duration- I still think tunnelling someone out ASAP would remain optimal.
With some more workshopping I think these problems could be resolved though.
In general, I would be receptive to trying a system like this or inspired by it. BHVR's attempts this year have felt like they're trying a bit too much at once, but this feels more focused. I agree tunnelling/slugging should remain parts of the game, it's just a matter of altering the incentive structures. I'm personally especially in favor of the "slugged survivors can revive each other" idea, I've suggested something like it before and think it's worth trying on a PTB.
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I think an idea like this is very reasonable so tracking Killers across the map isn't as easy, I really like it.
My one concern is that I don't love the idea of this interfering with seeing the map as a whole. It's pretty easy to imagine maps looking a lot worse thanks to the dense fog wall.
I think maybe the ground-level fog could be changed to be much, much thicker at longer ranges instead, rather than a full opaque wall?
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Like a lot of the particular questions about how the Trials work, there's no solid answer I can give you. I think the simple answer is that if Survivors don't share a language and can't communicate, sucks to be them, they're going in the Trial anyway. There's some detail I can give you, though:
One of Saku's tome stories, (Tome 14, House of Arkham IV, Tale of the Redcrane 1) it's mentioned that she has "learned about other worlds and people and their unique cultures and languages", so in her case at least, she explicitly learned other languages over the course of centuries. For Survivors like Vittorio, who have also clearly been in the Fog a while and had a chance to retain information, that'll be a similar case.
It's also worth noting there's a good chance either Aestri or Baermar can cast Comprehend Languages.
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I can get behind this. For most people audio triggers are quicker to react to than visual triggers IIRC, so I'm not concerned with this interfering too much with current skillcheck balancing as long as it's correctly synced with the audio trigger.
For my take on what it could look like, I think it could make sense as a heartbeat pulse, inbetween wherever the skillcheck circle will be appearing?
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I agree with the basic idea that some basegame bonuses should be geared to benefit normal M1 guys over high mobility Killers, but I really don't think making what's essentially an official tier list of Killers and having universal mechanics revolve around it is a good idea for the game. IMO it feels a bit too much like accepting the game's current balancing state as something that can't change, I guess. (sidenote; there would also need to be a LOT of discourse over which Killers belong where. I personally think your grading of Dracula in B, Pinhead in C, and Pinhead occupying the same space as Nurse, is bad for example)
I do think that the broad idea of a speed buff that vanishes or expires faster based on certain traversal effects is the right direction, I just think it might be more elegant as a binary "you lose ~25% of the overall duration when performing a traversal move", which already disproportionately affects Nurse, Blight, Ghoul and etc.
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I don't really care about it being lore accurate for the license or not, I don't think that matters, The Entity can make shadow clones or whatever. I also don't think balancing would be a problem. Like, is x2 Blights really going to be that much stronger than Nurse + Blight? Both will definitely be stronger than x2 Nemesis or x2 Pyramid Head or etc, I'm not worried about other Killer combos too much.
What I do think is real cause for concern is the fun factor. Having 2 of the same Killer in 2v8 is inherently less interesting than 2 different Killers and could result in much more boring matches.
I think for special events, like a unique x2 Ghostface event with maybe some special mechanics could work. And when we can eventually get custom game 2v8s, I think it's a no brainer feature to let people experiment with. But for regular 2v8 matchmaking, I prefer 2 different killers each time
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I don't think this idea would work, but I will quickly start my response by saying it sucks when people downvote posts that don't have any comments.
If we were designing DbD from scratch, I think this idea would have a lot more merit. But with the game we have, slugging has been balanced around the risk of a chain reaction of Survivors rescuing each other. An auto hook feature makes it much harder for that chain reaction to happen, and much more likely that, even if a Killer does screw up a slugging attempt, they still got a hook or two out of it and so haven't really been penalised for slugging.
Your endgame idea of the Entity killing everyone if everyone's downed is actually very similar to the "Basekit Unbreakable/Finisher Mori" PTB that was tried a few years ago and was unpopular. (though, for obvious reasons, the basekit, infinite use unbreakable recieved most of the negative attention) It removed endgame bleedouts, but it also removed a lot of classic events like a clutch crawl to the hatch or Killers sparing the last Survivor, and I think most people including me felt what was lost wasn't worth it.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4024089#Comment_4024089
You can self unhook only once, true.
But the heal works after every hook.
You can effectively only use the heal once too, considering Wicked is extremely obvious when it's used, even more obvious with Wicked + Resurgence and Killers can usually choose to carry you away from basement to hook you elsewhere. (though that depends on the map)
I'm personally not sure how strong it will be myself, I think the bigger problem with the combo might be Resurgence providing too much reliability to go with what should be a big gamble Perk setup, but we'll see how it pans out
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@RpTheHotrod said:
Not sure how it could be buffed without making it broken. Perhaps while in a locker, you can exit normally but can also exit with the illusion. Doing so will cause an illusion to remain with the locker where a survivor will appear to fast exit and enter every few seconds until the duration expires. However, considering it is the spell minor illusion, it wouldn't be able to have a visible and audible effect at the same time, so it is just visual - no loud noise notifications. It is still niche, but at least you would have another option with it. Oooo, what about it also working on exit gates where it looks like someone is interacting with the gate?
It already works with Exit Gates! Totems and Chests too.
I really like the idea of being able to use Mirrored Illusion in chase, though part of me thinks that might be such a departure from its original effect that it'd be better as a new Perk. (eg. an exhaustion perk that creates an illusion that runs straight)
I do think Mirrored Illusion should be a better, well, illusion. I personally lean against adding a penalty for Killers falling for it, I prefer it as a fun first Perk, but the ideal scenario for Mirrored Illusion is it stirring up so much paranoia that the Killer no longer trusts their eyes and has to walk right up to a generator to check it. I think it might be neat if Mirrored Illusion remembered every generator you've used it on already, and respawned the illusion at a random side of the generator the next time it's used, rewarding jumping between multiple generators by sowing illusions everywhere
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Yes, I can get behind trying to make cleansing dulls not just a matter of BP greed.
I don't think I'd like that specific idea you suggest, Survivors are already incentivised to stick to the borders of the map once the gates are powered, I think with your change they'd start avoiding parts of the map more likely to have totems like main buildings in endgame, making interesting situations a bit less likely to happen.
But there's probably some other good idea someone could think up. Maybe default Pallet distribution could be slightly lowered, but every Totem cleansed adds a new Pallet to the map?
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
"Why play Myers when Ghostface and Oni exist".
I'm sorry but Ghostface is awful, especially compared to current Mikey. There's no reason to play Ghostface when Mikey exists. There never was even before his rework in my opinion, but certainly not now.
Michael can't be robbed of his power by looking at him. He has some good anti loop in his kit now. He has good stealth. He has a good insta down, and you have a choice of using the strike or you can go old school with the tuft of hair and use regular exposed. Michael also has a base kit mori/tombstone for dead hook survivors which is a nice little counter to pallet and flashlight saves.
Ghostface is not the killer to compare Mikey to as an example of a better stealth or insta down killer. He's the total opposite.
Oh, to be clear, I don't think Ghostface is even a little bit strong, I was talking more about general power design. I'll quickly edit that point.
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I have three nitpicks/concerns with this personally:
- As far as ways to nerf Blight go, this isn't a very fun or interactive one.
- If you start introducing map changes like this with different Killers, I think it makes the game harder to learn, the difficulty of which is already something people are quite rightly worried about.
- This isn't a solution to Blight warping the game's map design, it's just giving into it
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I understand why lots of people have suggested a teleport or stealthy speedup in Myers' kit, but personally I do not like the idea. From the Survivors' perspective it's film accurate but from the Killer's POV it is essentially confirming Myers has superpowers, which I dislike.
Also, personally I think the game needs to find a way to balance Killers who don't have traversal. Giving Killers a traversal tool kinda feels like kicking that can down the road, even if it undeniably will make them stronger.
I honestly don't think it would be that difficult to adjust the effects of 9.2's Tier 3 back to something like the old Tier 3. Old Tier 3's long lunge and instadown were never weak parts of Myers' kit.
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Restun protection I can get behind, if only as a preventative measure to stop any kind of Head On softlock exploit from happening in future. The only legitimate restun situation I can think of is a wiggle escape followed by a pallet smash, so I think it should be something like after 2 stuns in quick succession you get 2 seconds of stun immunity.
Reblinding I'm more iffy on because blind extensions have never been a strong strategy and there are legitimate uses for it. Some kind of weak version of it, like maybe all Killers build up blindness resistance if it's happening constantly, would be useful to reduce the strength of bully squad tactics against newer Killers, so I can support that.
I don't think either of these ideas should come in the form of the 10 second window like you suggest, that's IMO a bit long and can lead to these things actually being exploitable as a temporary buff by the Killer. (though, temporary stun immunity after getting stunned sounds like a neat idea for a Perk)
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Even though comms are considered an acceptable part of the game nowadays, I think the developers are afraid to open this pandora's box because of how toxic endgame chat already is and the effect it could have on the casual community.
One of the biggest reasons I don't really play Survivor is because I'm very afraid of letting other people down in a PvP setting. I'm not saying that to argue the game's direction should be at the mercy of that fact, but because I don't think I'm the only one. The only way to play Survivor is to spend many, many hours looking like an idiot and failing horribly, and it only takes one really, really bad VC interaction for a person to give up during that painful process. (of course, the mute button exists, but that just prevents that one interaction from turning into three, five, etc. It doesn't prevent the initial incident unless you auto mute everyone)
Imagine how many last-second hook saves before the next stage are going to instead turn into some drunk guy screaming at the whole team because he assumes nobody's coming for him. Or how many fun Ghostface jumpscares are going to be followed by a Survivor calling you a slur for getting downed so quickly. Or how many completely new players, who just failed the first skillcheck they've ever seen, are going to be welcomed to DbD by three people berating them.
It's very possible, if not probable, that those fears of mine are overblown. But honestly, if I was asked to choose, I would vote for experimenting with gameplay buffs to soloQ players rather than giving them voice chat. I don't think VC is a meritless idea or anything, but that's just my preference
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IIRC, no Killers in 2v8 currently have anything similar to the Dream World or Nightfall, right? I assume those visuals stacking might be a problem, and need some work in order to get them to play nice together.
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Not against readjusting Sadako's relationship to Condemned, but I personally think her treating Condemned as a full alternate victory condition, rather than it being mostly tied to hooking, is fundamentally part of her playstyle and identity at this point. Any rework that significantly pushes her towards the Pyramid Head school of mini-moris will probably not be popular with her mains, even if the end result is decent or well balanced.
One thing I do like about your suggestion though is revisiting the "locking in" idea, I don't really like that she's currently disincentivised from hooking Survivors before they have Condemn built up. IMO alternate victory condition or no, Killers should generally want to catch and hook Survivors.
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Solution 1 is circumvented by Survivors 99ing gens, and Solution 2 is based on a ridiculous binary timer- It doesn't make any sense to execute Survivors who took 299 seconds to finish all gens as genrushers, and let Survivors who took 301 seconds off scott free. And besides, all the Survivors in the former camp are going to do is grab a stopwatch and time the last gen so they aren't penalised.
The broad idea of a mechanic to stop extremely fast gen completions is fine and I think could work, but neither of these specific ideas are good.
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IMO Alex's Toolbox should also be changed, it should have a repair speed bonus of like 30/40% or something.
- Even if you're going into a match intending to sabo, wouldn't you rather bring a toolbox with a 50% bonus and maybe a sabotage speed addon? I'm not very well versed on how sabo speed translates into real gameplay, but to my understanding a commodius' inherent sabo speed should still let you take a basic attack in front of a hook, sabotage it, then get away, right? If not I imagine a hacksaw addon would still make up the difference
- It being so intensely specialised pollutes the Chest pool.
Besides that, some notes about a few of your proposed Addon reworks:
- I don't really like the proposed change to Instructions here, because it kinda enables a mild form of griefing. I don't think it would be serious, but I can just imagine the clips of a new player applying Instructions thinking they're helping, only for the Killer to interrupt the gen at 98% progress because John Streamer couldn't get any Great skillchecks. I also think the inherent design of Instructions is wrong- It's cool to have an addon helping players who struggle with skillchecks, but disabling them entirely means they get less opportunities to learn. I would prefer something like "while repairing a generator with a toolbox, failing skillchecks has no penalty" or maybe just removing them as your version of Worn Out Tools already helps with skillchecks.
- The idea of your Scraps rework is great, but IMO it's not thematic for the addon. Maybe it would fit better on Protective Gloves, and to nerf toolbox capacity addons the capacity boosts for Scraps/Wire Spool could be reduced to something like +6/+10 respectively?
- I really like the idea of the Spring Clamp rework, and if it's applying to a single gen permanently, maybe it could also lower the passive sounds of the generator's pistons? That'd be an idea that doesn't exist in the game yet and could create some interesting survivor/killer mindgames.
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It's a bit hard to get into the hype cycle of new content right now, but Stranger Things Part 2 and IT are two prominent possibilities that would absolutely warrant 2 Survivors.
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I love the core gameplay design of looping. PvP games don't usually appeal to me, but getting into someone's head and predicting what they'll do next is the exception to that rule which I love. DbD has no competitors because everyone who tried saw looping as a problem to "solve" rather than the reason DbD is still around.
I hate skins which are very transformative, but aren't marked as Legendaries so they don't change UI portraits. Some of the new Witcher skins are mostly the offenders here, the Yennefer/Ciri/Triss skins are so transformative that it's kinda nuts the Survivors are still using their default portraits, and it's a bit annoying to have to use that extra moment of mental energy to think "oh yeah, Ciri = Sable".
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The "while healthy" requirement does give it a counter, anything that makes healing less convenient for Survivors or lets you get an early 1st hit like Undetectable reduces the chance of Finesse providing value.
Making it an Exhaustion Perk would just make it a much, much worse version of Lithe.
One thing that could tie it into Exhaustion instead could be Finesse's cooldown preventing Exhaustion recovery while it's active.
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If you're not counting Greenville as a new realm, you shouldn't count Nostromo either, it's part of Dvarka Deepwood.
You should also know that The Walking Dead won't actually have a new map- They added the map only for testing purposes in the PTB. The unique "don't dead open inside" tile in that map is going to be a random addition to Greenville maps.
I think the reason for this is that BHVR want to minimise the number of single map Realms in the game, and so have been working on bulking some ones like Ormond up with an additional map. And they also seem to really like using Withered Isle as their dumping ground for all urban maps, for whatever reason.
For the record, we do have a Realm on the year 10 roadmap, it'll come in March next year with an original Survivor chapter.
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I think improvements to the 1v2 experience is a good cause. When hearing that an exit gate will be powered though, I do get very skeptical, I worry about a few things:
- Denying an exit gate opening can be hard for Killers. In this case you only need to worry about a single one, but you're worrying about 2 Survivors, if you find and start chasing one, that's a big green light for the other to immediately run and open the gate. Securing a 4K would be pretty hard under those circumstances, especially if the survivor you're chasing isn't on death hook.
- If a Survivor gets an exit gate open, both Survivors are healthy, and the Killer has no instadown/multihit potential, that's turned a match where they won the match into a 2K which, no matter what the MMR says, won't feel good psychologically.
- Speaking of the MMR, the evaluation could be a bit weird, because I think most players consider a 2K to be roughly a draw in the current state of the game. If the 2nd Survivor death happens just as the last two Survivors are completing the final gen, would the MMR difference between them finishing the gen before or after their teammate's death be really big? Or is the incentive for finishing the last gens mainly an MMR thing?
- This could have the problem of kicking the can down the road and causing Survivors to start hiding in a 1v3 scenario instead of the 1v2.
Maybe with adjustments like opening the gate taking 5x as long or something this could be worth a playtest on a PTB, but I'm still doubtful. I think some other system should be thought up for dealing with the 1v2 stalemate. A repair speed bonus would be fair, and I also wonder if some Endgame Collapse-esque system could force the remaining survivors to take risks instead of hiding.
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I'll just chime in with which Killers I would place differently on this list, because I think micro vs macro is an interesting discussion worth having:
- Legion should be bumped down slightly. Feral Frenzy's great information via KI & their power becoming stronger based on Survivor positioning provides them with more macro potential than the average chase power does.
- I think Vecna should be bumped down. Mage Hand is a chase power, but also involves longterm decisionmaking about which Pallets you'd rather break vs using Mage Hand. Dispelling Sphere is a mapwide guesswork & information tool, and Fly is a traversal power with a long cooldown that benefits greatly from being able to make good guesses as to Survivor positions. (unlike dedicated traversal killers who can just zip to the other corner of the map if they didn't find anyone) Even Flight of the Damned can be converted to an Artist-like poke with some addons.
- Unknown should totally be lower because of Hallucination management.
- I'm tempted to bump Pig down because while RBTs are pretty simple, they flip the script on anticipating typical Survivor movements a lot and predicting where they're going when they have RBTs is a big part of Pig's skillcap compared to regular chasing.
- Sadako should be bumped down IMO, she has a full win condition for if she wins enough at macro.
- I'd bump Freddy up, macro elements definitely come into the power but not to the same extent as the Killers around him. He feels more like Doctor's ratio than Singularity's.
- I'd push Twins up, using both twins for macro plays can definitely be a big part of them, but at the end of the day their strength lies in Victor, not really being able to quickly switch between them
How I define both micro/macro, the test I like to work by is how much Killers value information on a Survivor in chase, vs information on Survivors that are far away. And I agree that the macro side of the game has been somewhat overshadowed by the satisfaction of cool movement or strong chase powers biasing Killer selection.
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This Is Not Happening. Crash out incoming:
- Comparing it to Resilience or Deadline makes me want to slam my head into a wall, WHY, WHY does TinH still exist with its current activation conditions when they do
- If the idea is to be a General Perk that makes skill checks easier for new Survivors, why does it require you to be Injured, and why have BHVR designed a bunch of other paid Perks that do a much better job at helping new players with skill checks??? Why not give TinH one of those effects they've designed so new players can have easy access to it, and give veteran players a Perk they'll actually care about in its place??
- The Perk has no thematic premise. The name implies a Perk where you're in a state of denial (which could be a really fun theme to make an evocative effect for) but the Perk's description and actual effect run with the idea of "performing at your best when under extreme stress" THEN WHY IS IT CALLED THAT
- Has parasitised itself to Perks that actually have ideas, like Hyperfocus, as an excuse to not try and get a better effect. Nothing against Perk synergies, but TinH is pretty much dead weight by itself and entirely relies on other Perks for it to freeload off, (unlike something like Slippery Meat, which undeniably works even if synergies are needed for its true potential) and personally I think that's a bad situation for any Perk to be in, especially a Generic Perk relying on DLC Perk synergies
- Has plot armor: The only other thing in this entire game that's ever increased Great Skill Check zone size is the Sponge addon, giving TinH the bizarre defense of technically having no competition while falling behind other Perks
- Has had the audacity to have not been directly updated for… 2,859 days and counting. (not counting Sabotage skill checks being removed as an update) A Perk not needing an update for a long time can be a badge of honor- I think Whispers floating in and out of the playerbase's favor with 0 direct balance patches is awesome. This Is Not Happening is not awesome.
"bad design" might be too generous, I would argue TinH wasn't designed. It feels like it only exists to meet a minimum Perk quota before the game shipped
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@Coffee2Go said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963233#Comment_3963233
Would be better to have him have a mirage, he is canonically supernatural though cult of thorn.
But either way i agree with you the travelling ability shouldnt be given to him.
If anything the mirage would suit him by masking his breathing to echo better so he will be lore accurate by baseline basically.
The mirage would just be there mainly for notifying and helping him since hes not that mobile killer as others.
Also applying fatigue slowness
DbD specifically adapts the Michael from the first Halloween, which then splits off into multiple other timelines depending on what sequels you want to follow- And in his original conception, keeping his nature between being a human or the boogeyman was the point. If you depart from that to explicitly adapt the H20 timeline, you narrow things from a "prime" version of Myers into a very specific version.
Not against fun references (IIRC, the Dead Rabbit addon is a reference to a comic, which is cool) but I'd really prefer Myers' power remain primarily inspired by the original movie. He's aged badly in a lot of ways, but his power being inspired by that movie, with a silent, stalking start that builds into an unstoppable threat, was always the best thing about his DbD adaptation IMO
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"Without us to stop it, Killers would equip 4 slowdown perks. We gave them 4 slowdown perks basekit so that never happens. That's our solution."
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In this specific instance, I agree that Pyramid Head getting such great buffs while Clown/Knight have gotten really bad changes sucks. Knight's Standard changes should either be reverted or completely rethought (IMO they should make 10s the new default standard spawn time for Jailer & Carnifex with Assassin keeping a 5s spawn) and Clown's changes should probably be brought back to the drawing board.
But, I disagree with the idea low/mid Killers should only be buffed and not recieve a buff/nerf bundle, for two reasons:
- Not every Killer patch needs to go in with the goal of moving a Killer up/down the tier list. Pyramid Head's seemingly well recieved rework is proof of that, because frankly it's just a fun patch. PH players who zone and tunnel are annoying to play against, so that playstyle is now worse. His addons used to suck, now they are much better. Pyramid Head didn't need a strength buff, but he did need fun, so he got it, I think that's a good thing.
- These specific nerfs made Knight and Clown both less fun to play, and that's the real issue. Knight's Standard changes are a travesty that disincentivise his interesting macro gameplay for dull zoning again. Clown's bottle changes mean instead of only using purple bottles being the low effort strategy, throwing a yellow bottle at the ground then M1ing like you ordered Wraith from Temu is the new low effort strategy, which is even less fun for both sides. There'd be little complaint if the compensation nerfs were slightly longer cooldowns or reloads, the issue is that the nerfs have damaged both of these Killers' playstyles and fun factor.
If Clown's yellow bottles were overbuffed to the point where he was super strong, this would have still been an awful patch for Clown. If Knight's #########-a-guard strategy was made so strong he's S-tier, this would have still been an awful patch for Knight. Mid/low tiers existing is fine, Killers getting their playstyles butchered is not