Lexilogo
Lexilogo
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I agree Myers needs a buff, and that I'd prefer that buff come in the form of a bit of reworking rather than just a numbers buff, it would be cool if Myers' secondary power did something.
With that said, I really don't want anything Myers does to be explicitly supernatural. I don't even like the idea of him moving supernaturally fast when out of sight like in the F13 game. This is a theming problem, the original vision of Myers' character was something that walks the line between human and force of nature without explicitly confirming either side, and I think that's the idea of The Shape DbD should represent.
I don't think your idea is bad, it's an interesting spin on a chase mindgaming power, I just think it's a bad fit for Myers.
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Add: I think Breakable Walls and their placements in maps should be redesigned around Killers being able to Kool-Aid through them. (during neutral walks only, so they can't be dashed/lunged through)
Remove: Jackie Earl Haley's Freddy Kreuger, replaced with Robert Englund's Freddy Kreuger.
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I would guess after Beastly they would still narrow it down a bit more, and then a werewolf would absolutely be one of the options. I don't think they will have these character's whole thematic concept wrapped with two votes.
I wish you werewolf guys luck, I'm all aboard the cosmic horror train personally.
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The issue with suggestions like this is how many Perks already revolve around things like Generators. Even Blood Generators in the previous Blood Moon event apparently didn't have enough time for Generator perks to be ported over to work on them. For stuff like fuseboxes or puzzle locks it'd be impossible to port Generator Perks over to work on them. Even something as small as a different repair minigame means Skill Check Perks get impacted.
I don't think alternate, map-dependent escape methods can really fit into DbD because of how core Generators are to the game. It could be cool for more alternate gamemodes (and for the record, I'm in the camp of arguing Generators should be experimented with ideas like the blood moon event's canisters for something eventually good enough to fit into 1v4 and make the game less stale) but the game can't completely flip the script on the core gameplay in its base maps.
I do think BHVR have done a pretty good job so far of being experimental with their maps, though. We've gotten things like the Nostromo's unique gas traps and Forgotten Ruin's portals not too long ago. These gimmicks certainly aren't always good, but they prove you can get creative with maps in DbD's format without needing to upend the whole game.
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wraith players have to deal with, exhaustion perks, alturism perks like bodyblocking, pallet saving, flash saving, ect, which most killers can deal with their power.
I kinda want to focus on this bit, because it kinda confuses me.
Exhaustion perks I get because Killers with strong chase/dash powers, yes, they can deal with exhaustion Perks better than M1 Killers like Wraith.
But bodyblocking and pallet/flashlight saving don't usually have counters built into Killer Powers. There are some characters like Sadako or Deathslinger that do have it, but it's usually not seen among the top tiers.
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Perks having too many conditions can make them feel exhausting to just look at. I felt that way about release Gearhead.
Personally, I only think two Perks really have unneeded activation conditions though:
Teamwork: Toughen Up should absolutely ditch the "while you are injured" clause IMO.
Conviction should ditch "heal a survivor" and have something else, like recharging every time you get hooked or having a long cooldown. I don't think it's the kind of Perk where it needs to be restricted at the beginning of the trial, it's exactly the kind of Perk that I want to contribute to fun early game plays.
The others I think could be tweaked or etc, but I don't think the clauses are unnecessary. Maybe Come And Get Me, but it's just a victim of Survivors not having x4 bindable Ability buttons, which I think they should at this point
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Hi, welcome to the forum!
Chucky becoming 115% when he doesn't have his power is an interesting port from Springtrap. I am personally hesistant to give Chucky movespeed buffs because him being 110% is IMO better for character uniqueness. It would make him better after S&D, but it would also cause missed S&Ds to be punished less.
I agree illusionary stuff is a very unique part of the power, but the issue is the Chucky player gets no feedback- In fact, if someone only played 50 games of Chucky as Killer without reading his Power, they probably wouldn't realize the illusory footfalls existed. Maybe this is a situation like Spirit's passive phasing → Sadako's manifesting, where something initially experimented with on one Killer is expanded to a more usable, significant part of a Power later.
I don't like hidey ho being infinite until you attack, it feels like it's removing room for players to make mistakes. As it stands, using hidey ho at a loop means you have a time limit to mindgame the Survivor and get a hit either through S&D or a basic attack. And using hidey ho when just traversing is giving you a time limit to try and make it useful. I do understand the idea of wanting more illusions, but I think this is coming at the cost of other elements of the gameplay.
I do find the idea of a more ambush oriented Chucky interesting, but as it stands I don't think your changes would work for that, unfortunately. Once again, I do like the idea of trying to expand illusory footfalls into being a bigger part of the power though…
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It's just Windows of Opportunity packaged into an item, and it's not like people are going to stop running Windows anytime soon anyways so it will only appeal to the people who don't have Kate.
Eh, I kinda feel current Maps are just a bad version of Detective's Hunch packaged into an item.
Also, to my understanding, new Maps will still be good for finding Generators as a basekit feature. Something about while the Map's Windows effect is active, you can put down a light beam for Survivors (like Glass Bead) that also reveals nearby Generators. I assume the Addon reworks will also help maps specialise in tracking different things if you want.
I do understand the feeling of being defensive about something weak in a game that you still really enjoy using, I have felt that way about a few things before. I hope the reworked Maps can still carry some of the appeal/uses of old Maps and if not more Addons should be thrown in for them so they can fit that more information-oriented rather than chase-oriented purpose. However, for now I'm optimistic
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I don't see how Springtrap being able to wait inside a door to proxy camp is any more problematic from other Killers with stealth abilities, or any Killer who equips Insidious. Travelling to doors near hooks I understand as a complaint, there's a precedent for that kind of traversal being limited on other Killers, but not this. It's a jerk move, but it's one of the oldest tricks in the book.
IIRC you can also visually tell if Springtrap is bluffing a door, because the screen on the door flickers, which happens to the door Springtrap enters and is leaving from if he's travelling.
As for speed adjustment while holding axe, please just be patient. Springtrap got a round of kneejerk addon changes and is now waiting a bit before basekit balance changes while a bunch of other stuff in the game is getting changed. Considering that there doesn't seem to be a massive consensus on him yet, that seems fair IMO
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I have also found myself thinking the same thing! Being able to slowly walk with a button on KB+M would be a good addition for player expression.
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@Valimure said:
There's a 2.5 second window after flying in which he moves at half speed, same as Legion.
That is nothing like Ghoul, who has no slowdown after using power and can attack 2 seconds later.
Wiki claims 2.75, idk which is right but it's all around as long as Hillbilly stopping a chainsaw dash (+ I believe Vecna post-fly is nearly twice as slow as Billy post-saw, and ofc Billy has Overdrive on top of that) so I really don't see much argument that Fly is mechanically problematic in comparison to Hillbilly.
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Art is definitely up there on the licenses I would really like to see.
My question is, what would his Killer title be? "The Terrifier" doesn't really do it for me.
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Unfortunately, any Perk that specifically relies on Breakable Walls to work can't get added, because not every map has them. It's one thing to have Perks that are stronger or weaker on certain maps, it's another for map RNG to make a Perk totally unusable. There was a time when it seemed like Breakable Walls might be retrofitted into every map, but it seems like people generally not liking them meant BHVR abandoned the idea. I don't like Breakable Walls personally but it is a bummer we'll never get to see Perks specifically utilising them like yours.
Your idea is really fine, Survivors building breakable walls should be fairly balanced like Any Means Necessary is (tbh, I wonder if Any Means Necessary could be stronger with a limited charges system like yours instead of its current cooldown?) but the state of the game means it can't work out.
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957537#Comment_3957537
So better question… has any suggestion or feedback from the suggestion and feedback part of the forum actually been used? Any examples?
I do actually remember a couple of things I suggested getting added:
Haemorrhage causing heal progress to decay (suggested apr 2020 and later again feb 2021, added early 2022)
Pig's Iridescent Video Tape causing Survivors to start the trial with RBTs (suggested april 2020, added late 2021. there were some notable differences; my idea was a buff to Rules Set No. 2 because it was the Iri back then, but rarities were swapped around with the rework. My idea was also a lot more wacky with a Generator immediately completing at the start for an immediate headpop timer, but the core idea of "start with the traps set up, like in a SAW movie" is the same. There are a few other addon ideas that are kinda similar like John's Medical File becoming a crouch movespeed increase, but the iridescent is the main one I remember)
Did the developers actually read these specific posts and decide to do them based on that? Probably not, it's 1000x more likely they came up with these on their own, or someone else came up with these before me and they were the actual inspirations. But if nothing else, it's a neat coincidence
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I personally feel this idea leans too much into crouching/Ambush as being Pig's identity, she's a SAW Killer. I'd like crouching & ambush to get buffed of course, but I don't think it needs to be anywhere near as good as Chucky's or etc, I think that aspect of Pig's kit being noticeably weaker as compensation for her having the traps is interesting.
Turning crouch instead into an uncounterable Night Shroud, with a very strong dash instead of instadowning, kinda feels like there's not much Pig left in the rework. I would prefer something like raising crouch speed to 105%, or 110% at the most.
I will say that I kinda like the idea of giving Ambush a special vault. Being able to vault Pallets is feeling a bit derivative IMO, but the ability to simply cancel Ambush with a window vault could be neat.
Bumping her with an RBT triggering chase is also an idea I very much support, it's a great suggestion to avoid the worst potential of RBTs.
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I'm gonna talk about some of your ideas for the Killer Perks that stick out to me:
Alien Instinct: I kinda like the idea of it being able to apply Oblivious to other Survivors too, but I don't like it being an unconditional application to the whole team.
Batteries Included: This would be overcomplicated, players on either side can't make plays around 2.31% Haste or etc. It's much healthier to have a flat amount with an on/off condition than progressive amounts like that.
Blood Warden: Made me laugh (and to be fair, punishing tbagging isn't unprecedented, Oni's blood orbs do it) but I think clamping down on player expression like this, even what is normally used for a toxic sentiment, isn't great. Blood Warden could be buffed in other ways that still punish Survivors for getting cocky at the exit gates.
Call of Brine: I really like this idea, it's a more unique way to buff the perk that's not just a numbers adjustment.
Forced Penance: While this Perk isn't great in average matches, to my understanding it gets significantly stronger against better Survivors who know how to do optimal altruistic plays, so I don't think I'm comfortable with such a huge buff that would make all protection hits an immediate death sentence. I'd prefer something smaller, like a faster Basic Attack cooldown if one of your Basic Attacks was the protection hit
Hex: Ruin: I really don't agree with 0% progress on Great Skill Checks, it's just deleting an element of skill from the Survivors' side.
STBFL: I have some nostalgia for the old effect as well, but let's be honest, it was so strong it was borderline mandatory on the Killers like Demogorgon who could benefit from it, I don't think it should return.
Overwhelming Presence: The idea of a map-wide Terror Radius fits the Perk perfectly and I love it. The aura reveal on item use is overkill though IMO. Survivor uses a toolbox or map at the start of the game, that's basically a Lethal Pursuer, it's a better Nurse's Calling if Survivors are using any medkits, Survivor uses a flashlight and it's I'm All Ears, it's way too much.
Floods of Rage: I think Floods is already a phenomenal Perk. It's like BBQ with no range limit and can act as a decisive, chase ending aura reveal.
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I personally really like Killers being 110%, it makes them more unique.
I think Chucky is probably the most unjustifiable 110% in the game at the minute, but personally, I kinda want to keep him that way. He's got little doll legs, of course he's slow. Let's buff him in other areas except the most boring one imaginable.
I feel the same way about every other 110 in the game. Why is Springtrap 110 while he has his axe and 115 without it? Maybe instead of arguing about it in terms of Killer strength, we can just say "because switching movement speeds midgame is interesting for his gameplay"?
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I'm sorry, is this an AI-generated post? I don't want to be reckless with that kind of accusation, but things like adding a second Springtrap, "tiny bear" (???????), or Systematic Hunting being a good facsimile of what a reasonable DbD Perk sounds like without any understanding of DbD itself sounds like a dead ringer for someone prompting an AI to make a Killer suggestion, this doesn't seem like a language translation problem or anything.
The last post that seemed AI-generated here was about hair braiding, so at least you're on topic now. Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/449281/buffing-play-with-your-food
The problem with haste perks is that it gives no chance to one or either side.
→ Looping killer with Blood pact, Power of two fe.
→ Looping survivor with battery, game affot, pwyf fe.
I wish they take step back, remove the haste stacking and buff particular perks.
Yeah, I'm curious what they'll do. I was personally in favor of removing Haste stacking in theory, but when it became clear it was deleting fun for characters like Clown it wasn't gonna work, even though I still agree with the sentiment that adding so many Haste perks is going to backfire unless some kind of limitations are added.
I'm wondering if Haste could be split between stackable and nonstackable versions? Eg. "Speed" stacks, several Perks like Dark Theory or Rapid Brutality become "Speed", Haste no longer stacks. I know they tried applying this to some things like Overclock before walking back the Haste rework.
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@Qinshi1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950792#Comment_3950792
I’ve seen high-level Unknown gameplay too, but honestly, that doesn’t really represent the average experience. These days, you’re almost always up against sweaty teams who know every trick — pre-dropping, line of sight, and playing super efficiently.
Unknown has an interesting kit, but in practice, he’s just too easy to counter. His blast is easy to avoid if you have decent timing, and the teleport is pretty predictable or useless when survivors stick together. You end up having to work way harder for each chase compared to other killers who can put more pressure on the map.
In theory, he’s strong in the right hands, but in most matches, he’s not cutting it against good survivors without putting in 10x the effort.
In theory, he’s strong in the right hands, but in most matches, he’s not cutting it against good survivors without putting in 10x the effort.
Disclaimer, I've never played Unknown, he could be D tier for all I know, but at least from my layman baby Killer perspective, extra effort to get results sounds like a fair tradeoff for a 115% ranged Killer who has no lullaby, can teleport, has AoE damage, can ricochet shots, and can hit through solid surfaces.
Every other ranged Killer is more casual friendly, (especially Springtrap, who also provides heavy projectiles, a cooldown instead of reloading, teleports, and no lullaby) IMO it's neat to have one who's harder to play and I don't see why you wouldn't go for one of the others if Unknown's skillfloor is your issue
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There are some differences like longer matches, but IMO the main one is that DbD has a very casual culture. So many players have "rulebooks", because in the game's earliest days, I don't think it would've survived without them.
Before the Abandon system was added, if a Killer slugged the whole team, they could just sit there and waste your time bleeding out for 4 mins, and that was only recently fixed. If you wind back the clock further, there's infinites, facecamping, old Brand New Parts, old Decisive Strike, old Borrowed Time, hatch standoffs, deliberately unsafe unhooks, no Endgame Collapse timer so Survivors could hold the game hostage for as long as they could hide, no Bloodlust, etc.
So, the community couldn't trust the game to define all the acceptable rules for them. The dark side of that now is that if people feel their rulebook is being broken and the game's not being played how it "should" be, they might feel entitled to DC.
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A lot of other people are already talking about the specifics of Foxy's Hook here (it's a solid addon) but I want to focus on this:
Why does Animatronic have addons that give bonuses to the survivor? Bonuses received from the killer should not exist.
I really don't understand why you'd be so close-minded about ideas like that. I think the idea of strong effects that also buff your opponent is a fun concept, and Celebrate Poster is a pretty fun addon. (though IMO they should revert the AoE)
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Funny meme, but to be serious, this is a good thing. Deliverance turns a situation where the Killer has 2 Survivors under pressure into a situation where the Killer has absolutely no pressure, it is one of the strongest Perk effects in the game. Its activation being unreliable keeps it balanced, plus it only being able to activate on 1st hook gives experienced Killers a better chance of a callout
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IMO the most important skill in a PvP game is the ability to recognise when someone's outplayed you or you've made a mistake, recognise it, and learn from it or at least take it in stride. It doesn't just help you improve, it's what the fun of the game relies on and how you avoid getting tilted.
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You don't have to be modest about PH's addons, they're in a really bad state, they need a lot of love. Your suggested Obsidian Goblet change would definitely make it way more useful!
I personally don't like the idea of torment on M2, it feels like it's essentially removing trails from the game. I think something like Punishment lines leaving a Torment trail after a delay could be cool, or maybe Punishment could inherit torment if you shot it through a trail (different from your current one and probably with a minimum size) but I don't want a situation where Pyramid Head is doing nothing but landing M2s, and I like the idea of Torment not being guarenteed or even optimal to go for on every down.
Thankfully I think Pyramid Head, addons aside, has aged very well alongside the game, so BHVR don't really need to issue big reworks or anything, it's really just a matter of changing those addons then deciding if there's anything in the basekit that could use changing to make him more fun.
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I'll say beforehand that if Knockout gets totally reworked again, I'd kinda like the current effect to become a new General Perk or something.
I also think that it actually shouldn't necessarily synergise with Bubba- It only buffing his hammer attacks isn't good for his gameplay, but it is thematic to the Perk and especially the TCM scene that presumably inspired it, so I like the idea of it reverting to a Basic Attack perk.
Anyway, here's my pitch:
When you down a Survivor with a Basic Attack, Knock Out applies the following effects:
- You recover from your Basic Attack 20/25/30% faster.
- Your victim Survivor loses the ability to self-recover from the Dying State, move in the Dying State, or wiggle while carried for 3 seconds.
- Picking up a Survivor afflicted by Knock Out is 40% faster.
My numbers are probably poorly thought out in some way but hopefully this gets the idea across. Encourages you to slug when you see a clear opportunity via the basic attack cooldown, but is of no real benefit if you're leaving people on the ground all the time. It also pulls double duty as a hook convenience perk in case a slugging opportunity never comes up, but with the downsides of being restricted to M1 Killers and you lose the benefit if you aren't willing to immediately commit to a pickup.
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There are indeed Perks in this game that rely on chase status to do things. Eg. Cut Loose, Quick Gambit, Troubleshooter, Game Afoot, Play With Your Food, Predator. I don't think it will affect Twins significantly (Maybe you could use Monitor & Distressing to turn Charlotte into a static 52m Terror Radius emitter while Victor is out chasing? Combine that with Infectious Fright… nope, charlotte doesn't have a TR while victor is controlled, dangit) but it's mostly just a win for fairness, it's how it should work.
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I don't think they're deliberately designed like that, but I wouldn't be surprised if these Killers were playtested a lot on their respective maps and so some natural synergy comes out of that, eg. Dredge's lockers on Garden of Joy.
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This would also be a very rare score event, but throwing the axe to block a camera the Survivors are using should absolutely reward Deviousness.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
If Mangled and Hemorrhage is so bad… why is Sloppy Butcher one of the most used killer perks?
Because on Killers that only M1, Mangled/Haemorrhage can produce consistent value when you hit & run, which a lot of M1 Killers do anyway, whether they have a Power that lends itself to that playstyle like Wraith/Sadako/Hag/any stealth Killer or they need to drop chases sometimes like Trapper.
I will say that they are far from universally useless, but if they do help it's rare that you realize it unless you are going full into the hit & run, and it really depends on Killer selection. If we don't get universal Mangled back I hope they at least vary the durations more in future so addons that need it can get a duration buff.
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I admit I am a mere sadako apprentice/journeyman, but it seems to me her teleports being tied to TV management is a good thing, wouldn't decoupling it make playing her and her counterplay less interesting?
I will say though, maybe as a oneoff teleport at the start of the match that doesn't apply Condemn, (maybe with other special modifiers like being slightly slower?) I think I'd like it. We're going to need more debate over what kinds of traversal Killers should be able to use from the start of a match, but IMO at the very least, 9.0 Vecna changes has taught us roundstart traversal feels fundamentally fun, and I think Sadako kicking off the match by crawling out of a TV would feel better than waddling around for the first 30 seconds like a goober
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Unironically yes, it would be funny if the ball pit was like foliage. Trapper/Hag having hidden traps inside it would also honestly be fine because you can just avoid going into the pit.
@Emeal said:
There was an Idea I thought of regarding the ball pit, BHVR would it be possible for you make the specific basement beneath the ball pit, if it spawns, have a layer of balls, not a thick layer, but as if when the basement spawned all the balls were dropped into the basement.
Basically if a player Killer or Survivor character moves through it in that specific basement, Balls will fly everywhere.
I think that would be soo cool.I like this idea as well, having a few balls in the basement would help draw the connection "oh, basement replaces the ball pit" and make the basement more unique.
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I think there are valid points here and I'd agree at the current time, the game is quite Killer-sided unless a serious SWF is in play and I hope soloQ Survivors can get a better chance in lobbies in the near future.
However, I think it's worth saying that many players who go next don't always correctly identify these things. I'm sure we've all seen people go next when the match was not decided by any means, or people who have very odd criteria for going next eg. "I don't play against BS Killers like Ghostface!!" IMO it's a cultural thing caused by the roster of recent Killer releases:
- Skull Merchant releases in a state that compels a large chunk of the Survivor playerbase to essentially boycott any match with her. Her state is indeed awful and she is not only butchered with nerfs but also causes fundamental changes to the game to make sure her situation doesn't happen again.
- Singularity releases and is an extremely strong Killer.
- Xenomorph releases and while its certainly not top tier (beyond that, its strength is arguable, could be mid or low tier depending on who you ask) its tail strike can definitely feel futile to play against in a chase
- Chucky releases in a strong state, becomes very popular fast, gets fundamentally reworked to avoid aspects of his power people felt were unfair.
- Unknown releases and is a very strong Killer.
- Vecna releases and is decent.
- Dracula releases and is an extremely strong Killer.
- Houndmaster releases and is a very strong Killer.
- Kaneki releases and is an extremely strong Killer, and also smashes records as the most popular Killer in the game. He also releases in a state that a lot of people argue, and still contest, is perhaps unfair and has earned him some nerfs already
The roster of A-Tier Killers, and the overall percieved strength of Killers, has been totally rewritten by the past couple of years of releases. If you compare this to the era BHVR were releasing Nemesis, Pinhead, Artist, Sadako, Dredge etc, the average Killer strength standards are night and day, and it's very understandable why A-tier after A-tier would exhaust people. And right before this massive run of supercharged Killers, we got Skull Merchant normalising the idea that if you think a Killer design is BS, you should probably just give up. It's pretty clear from that how we got here
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Yeah, I've personally had a bit of reservation after coming back and finding "ratting" had entered the playerbase's vocabulary.
There are absolutely situations where Survivors just don't want to be found (mostly when there's 2 remaining and both want hatch, or of course the classic hiding in a corner with a key) but those are edge case scenarios and prevention of it needs to be treated in an edge case way. The Killer being able to Abandon after 10 mins of no gens being completed is a decent example of doing it right IMO.
But a new player getting immersed and crouching around the map for 2 minutes instead of finding a generator is not something we need crows to stop. I'm sure it's annoying to have a teammate be doing that, but it's a natural part of the game
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@jedimaster505 said:
lol, I've noticed this trend of giving killers more and more combined abilities until there is just basically nothing you can do as a survivor. Now Springtrap has Huntress projectiles, Onryo teleports, Ghostface undetectability, Legion aura reading, Trapper M1, and Singularity map cameras All-In-One single-click gauranteed 4K package! Meanwhile…survivors get less and less agency and skill expression with each update. Like they're just there to be the killers Plaything.
Springtrap doesn't really have Legion's aura reading by any measure. If he hits you with the axe, he can see the axe, unless you're in the process of removing it. He's not revealing anyone else and the aura read is quite counterable so you can still mindgame shack/jungle gyms with an axe in your back. If you're talking about the axe radius Killer Instinct that's ridiculously petty to complain about lol
He also doesn't have Singularity cameras either, the cameras are exclusively used by the Survivors.
Survivors also do get more agency and skill expression with his addition, he gives Survivors a teleport. It's not like Dracula or something where the Killer gets all the toys and Survivors are just playing normal DbD.
You're correct that there's been a trend of giving Killers more different tools at the same time, but I really don't think Springtrap is going too far in that department. There's a lot that needs to get fixed up about the update but Springtrap's fundamental design is good, I just think Survivors need a better reason to monitor cameras.
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Dying Light needs to be buffed, but I don't think the solution is to remove a part of the Perk that makes it interesting and unique. The idea of a slowdown Perk that has the cost of buffing the Obsession is cool and something no other Perk does, and I don't think the 33% altruism buff for the Obsession is so strong that the Perk can't be viable despite it.
Maybe a mechanic could be implemented so Dying Light activates when you first hook a Survivor (gaining a token as normal) and makes that Survivor you hooked the Obsession? That way the super-survivor you created starts at a disadvantage, and you have a way of controlling who the Obsession is in that match without needing a second Perk.
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I think he just needs more time. A lot of people have made theoretical arguments that Springtrap is a mostly better Demogorgon, Xenomorph, or Huntress. Those don't always pan out in real games, but just the axe on its own is would make a decent Huntress sidegrade, and that combined with map traversal + undetectable, I see no world where Springtrap's not ~B tier at the very least.
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Map offerings being secret I still support, they're fairer now and it lets you privately express a preference for a map without judgement.
But making every gameplay offering secret is too much. Stuff like luck offerings, coins or oaks I think I understand a bit more, the more Secret offerings exist the better the value of the Secret modifier is, but I see no need for the other stuff to stay Secret, especially Hatch offerings which were kept in check by being public knowledge.
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It seems like the cutoff was either during my hiatus from the game or very shortly before it, so there's not much to see and there's very little Trapper/Myers presence even though they were essentially my mains pre-hiatus. But strangely enough, whatever matches aren't counting have resulted in the page alleging I've never played Survivor in my life.
…I mean, it's honestly not that far from the truth, but the Recent Matches page acknowledges the two games of Chaos Shuffle Survivor I played to get bathtub geralt:
So IDK what's going on there. I can confirm the Steve game didn't have any DCs, it was a friendly Ghostface game where everyone did the coldwind crouch conga. The Quentin game was a fairly normal game on borgo vs an Artist presumably trying her for free, naturally I still died.
Anyway, here's my baby Knight stats:
And here's my "top 7":
Sadako's kill rate is obviously inflated at low MMR but I'm getting fairer matches with her nowadays so I'm looking forward to that normalising. I'm also surprised by that low Oni killrate, to my memory I normally do better on him than characters like Slinger or Clown. Anyway please excuse me, I need to go and pump these shamefully low numbers up
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The doors are indeed part of Springtrap's power, not part of the map. If you don't want to use them, you can either not play Springtrap on the Killer side, or as a Survivor, just don't use them, they are not a vital part of playing against Springtrap.
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Yeah, renaming Exposed would be good, but it'd need a good candidate to be renamed to. "Vulnerable" or something would be kinda lame IMO. Maybe "Easy Target" or something like that?
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The idea of a "parry" against pallet drops is something I wouldn't mind seeing on a Killer. (singularity sort of has one already) It could even fit on current Myers.
But I don't like removing Myers' stalking elements and converting Evil to a passive reward for regular M1 gameplay. Myers' stalk has gameplay issues, but this rework would pretty much be M1 central, whereas the stalk ability thematically is a slam dunk and can feel really good to do. I would prefer trying to improve the current Stalk/Evil Within system rather than this overhaul.
I'm ironically unsure if this would actually strengthen Myers or by how much. His slow EW1 start is gone of course, he no longer needs to stalk at all, he's 120% and gains a few things like inherent Brutal, a sort of reverse Knock Out, and a Haste boost while unobserved… But he's lost all instadowning, I think it's easy to forget how good instant downs are.
I like the proposed Tombstone rework, forcing Myers to do a lot of slugging to earn the right to mori everyone kinda leans into the "alternate gamemode" idea Judith's Tombstone pretty much turns the game into. In general, the addons listed are quite creative, though I think the ones that adjust Evil gain are a bit too weak/conservative in their strength compared to being able to start in Evil Within 3.
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Babysitter also hasn't done BT any favors. I think extending the Endurance further would be totally fine.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
As a Trapper main, I hate this with the burning fury of a thousand suns. I'm surprised that you put so much work into nerfing arguably the weakest character in the game (besides SM, obviously.)
You seem to recognize that Trapper is fundamentally flawed, but you don't see HOW he's flawed. Here's how Trapper is actually flawed:
- Trapper is the only killer that has to tour the entire map in order to have full access to his power. No other killer, even other trap killers, has this problem. This means that Trapper is much slower at setting up his power than even the other "slow start" killers like Hag or SM. He has arguably the slowest start of any killer, almost necessitating Corrupt as one of his perks. Even then, he is still too slow at the beginning of the game. It also often results in him never getting all of his traps. In any given game, I'll usually only ever get to 5-6 of his traps. The other 2-3 are near gens that are too far away.
This results in a killer that only has access to his already mediocre power very sparingly. - Survivors have full control over his power. Having just one survivor keep eyes on Trapper and either disarming traps or relaying trap info to their team makes him a powerless M1 killer and there's really nothing he can do about it. Without bloody coil, an Iridescent Addon, survivors can make him an M1 killer for free.
Your proposed rework does nothing to alleviate either of these core problems, and instead makes them even worse. In your rework, I'd still have to walk around the entire map as a 4.6 to gather my traps. Not only that, survivors can just… destroy my traps, making me do it over and over again lol.
Trapper HAS to have a trap at shack. It's not optional. If he doesn't trap shack window, he will be juiced around that tile for minutes at a time. I always have one on the outside of shack window (and/or the pallet, if it's still up.) Yes, it gets disarmed 4-5 times, but it's not there to catch unwitting survivors, it's there to make them leave and run a tile I can actually play at. Any time that a survivor runs to shack, I'll rearm the inevitably disarmed trap at shack window, and the survivor is forced to leave. Everyone knows there's a trap there, it just becomes a question of: Who's touched it last, their buddy or the Trapper?Shack isn't the only trap that really isn't optional. GoJ, you trap the main building window. Otherwise, you just have to drop any chase that goes to main. Farm maps, you trap the vault on the tree loop. Autohaven, you trap the bus. You just do. Otherwise, you'll get juiced at these tiles by any survivor who knows how to play at all.
So I'd have to keep a few traps on me in case a chase goes somewhere I just can't play at as an M1, instead of setting them at the beginning of the match and rearming them as needed.
So let's look at your rework and see how you exacerbate Trapper's core problems:
- I'd still have to traipse all over the map to collect traps. Not only that, but I'd have to do it regularly throughout the match as survivors destroy my traps. I'd have even fewer traps to play with, because I'd have to keep traps on me to replace the non-optional ones survivors destroy.
- Survivors would have even more control over my power. Not only can they make a trap I placed useless, they can make it disappear entirely and spawn halfway across the map, with only a ten second interaction with literally no downsides. A survivor that follows me around the map could still force me to be an M1 with no power the entire match, except now they can do it even worse.
And really, all I'd get in return is one second off of picking up traps and a small, 5 second haste when I do it. That's it. My already weak power is getting WAAAAY weaker in return for a 5 second stack of PWYF if a survivor happens to run towards a loop I've trapped that the survivors haven't found and disarmed yet. Are you serious? That's your idea of a Trapper "buff?"
Ok, that's fair. Trapper needs traps at good tiles, and if they're relocated too often (which is more likely if they're spread out at said good tiles) that's going to make the problem of needing to collect traps worse, even with Haste/trap pickup while moving. (And that can't really be solved by making the Haste stronger because the focus goes all the way to the Haste) Needing to replace traps actually hurts more if used at wide range across multiple loops than basement trapper, so yeah it's not gonna work out and ends up being self-defeating.
Alright, let's can the thread in that case. There's a few things I still think could be neat here like the seamless pickup so I'll leave that stuff, but consider this rework a dead end.
- Trapper is the only killer that has to tour the entire map in order to have full access to his power. No other killer, even other trap killers, has this problem. This means that Trapper is much slower at setting up his power than even the other "slow start" killers like Hag or SM. He has arguably the slowest start of any killer, almost necessitating Corrupt as one of his perks. Even then, he is still too slow at the beginning of the game. It also often results in him never getting all of his traps. In any given game, I'll usually only ever get to 5-6 of his traps. The other 2-3 are near gens that are too far away.
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@Elan said:
Simple buffs would be enough:
- Being trapped counts as hook stage and survivor can only escape by being rescued. (Removes option to pick up survivors from trap or down then while being trapped)
2. Iridescent stone and bloody coil basekit
3. Increase set up speed and trap camuflage colour.
4. When any trap is set or picked up, trapper gets 10 % haste for 10s
5. All traps are carried basekit
6. Injured survivors suffer deepwound when disarming trap while injured
7. Stepping into trap when being one hook stage from death will instantly sacrifice survivor.
I've heard a lot of these ideas before but don't really like many of them, (except for better trap camo which feels long overdue, and carrying all traps basekit as I think that's a reasonable buff, though it's not my preference) because it feels like just piling buffs onto Trapper until he's good. Maybe it'd be more exciting if we spun a wheel to decide what Trapper addon should be basekit next?
IMO a Trapper buff needs to start by acknowledging the Killer's fundamentally flawed. I love the guy, but his killrates are already in a good place because Basement Trapper, a boring and uninteractive playstyle, is genuinely usable in the majority of lobbies. That's why BHVR have kept him in this current state for so long, trying to buff Trapper to also be good at loops could result in Basement Trapper becoming too strong. Many of his addons have already been made basekit over the years and nothing has changed, Trapper is still fundamentally weak and barely hangs onto the game via very oppressive area lockdown. You can't buff Trapper's numbers or make Bloody Coil basekit to make him good. You could make him strong, but that's not the same thing as being a good Killer.
@Zuiphrode said:
100% no to destroying the trap.
With how weak Trapper is, I get this kneejerk reaction, it sucks for him to get any nerfs- But I stand by this one. The other parts of the power are meant to ensure traps getting destroyed isn't a big problem. You can carry all your other traps to easily replace them (so you can absolutely lock down basement, you're just expending a resource to do it), they should respawn in convenient areas, and collecting them speeds you up instead of slowing you. And I included Tension Spring so players can opt out of trap destruction.
I will say that I was worried thinking about the "follow Trapper to disarm his traps" strategy against this playstyle. I think it could be reasonable to increase the base disarm time to counteract it? But I'm not sure if it would be too strong against this version of Trapper or not. Regardless, I believe traps being destroyed and respawning is the way to open the path for more Trapper buffs without Basement Trapper being as much of a worry. If trap destruction turns out to be too much of a nerf, more buffs could be piled on without as much concern for the Killer's effect on game health.
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#1: Yes, right now too much of the game is balanced around Perks especially anti-tunnel measures, hopefully Chaos Shuffle helps illuminate that and the upcoming anti-tunnel changes help.
#2: Completely deleting Killer addons removes a lot of variety and comfort factor from the game so I'm really not in favor of it. I agree with the problem you point out but I think the solution's overkill. Maybe there should be a system where you can opt-in to randomised items/addons and there's a bonus for doing so?
#3: Absolutely not. While rerolling Perks midmatch like this sounds fun, in reality it would make Chaos Shuffle incoherent, it would lower the chance of you being able to play around your Perks, it would make far more Perks completely useless because anything that needs time to get going like Devour Hope or etc won't work, and so on. And in general, part of the appeal of Chaos Shuffle is paying attention to those weird Perk synergies or appreciating lesser-used Perks. I'm not against perk rerolls entirely but IMO it should be something you have to look for in the trial and interact with, not something that is constantly happening.
#3.5: I mean, like TMTRAINER in Isaac, the result would be incoherent. TMTRAINER and glitched items are neat to appreciate from a distance but when you play with them you realize how much they corrode the actual fundamentals of playing the game, sometimes the literal fundamentals of the game's code, until your run is unplayable. Your idea of how to apply it to DbD is obviously less impactful but I think a total of forty-eight Survivor perk effects all running at once in a game would just end up feeling like nonsense.
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Well, good news, Open-Handed already exists! Unfortunately, Killers don't have an equivalent though, I would like to see them get one.
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That would destroy the entire point of the mechanic. It's not a funny thing BHVR put in to make sure Killers can't defend specific gens when there's still 4 to be repaired, it was made to ensure 3-gens cannot be defended infinitely.
You absolutely can patrol objectives at endgame with the mechanic and as long as you're reasonably focused on Survivors above the Generators, the kick limit will rarely stop you from doing anything, unless you're running a perk like Surge that runs into the kick limit easily.
IMO the kick limit is an excellent addition and while it could use continuous tuning the game is much healthier for having it.
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Pallets respawning after only 60 seconds could cause VERY severe problems on maps like RPD or The Game. Somehow, infinites returned…
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I think Beetlejuice is absolutely horror adjacent enough to fit in DbD. (strangely, I'm not sure how to decide where the line is with spooky themed comedies. I am personally in favor of Scooby-Doo, especially if BHVR made their own versions of the characters, but the Addams Family feels like a completely wrong fit for some reason. regardless, I think beetlejuice passes the vibe check)
Betelgeuse as a Killer I think could be justified, if the nasty parts of his personality are leaned into. From what I understand about the character he is willing to kill people to get what he wants. And a "joke" Killer with an unpredictable, fun first power, in a similar manner to what Nic Cage was for Survivors, could be really cool. For a Survivor, surely it has to be Lydia, right?
So yeah, I can see the potential. Personally, Beetlejuice doesn't really do it for me, I just don't care for it very much. I don't think that reflects the general public though, so I'd be interested to see how many people would like it, I'm not very enthused but I know Beetlejuice has its fans.