Lexilogo
Lexilogo
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What any dev says is not gospel by any means, but I can't help but think of that Reddit post where Almo talked about VHS and why so many asyms wanting to kill DbD "fixing its problems" like "oh man, it's lame Survivors can't fight back, what's up with that? my asym's gonna have GUNS" end up stumbling into much bigger problems. Tunnelling sucks, but the good side of allowing Survivors to actually die is that once a Survivor's dead, they're gone and it's a massive burden off the Killer's shoulders.
In a rebalanced version of DbD where the game is always 1v4, if the MMR algorithm decides to gift you a cracked P100 Jill, who's running Background Player because she doesn't need Lithe to loop you like a NASCAR rally, you will be dealing with her for the entire match. Her eventually dying for getting too reckless and turning the game into a 1v3 is a crude solution, and definitely not ideal for survivors playing in teams, but it's also a vital source of relief and an important element that makes Killers feel like killers.
I don't mean to sound like one of those "woe is my role" people who will only be happy when their side of the asym is hyper overpowered, but seriously, I don't think this game can survive removing the ability to kill Survivors off. I hope tunnelling gets a sensible solution, I don't think this is it.
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I'm a Dying Light enjoyer, but I'll say I dislike the idea of picking a Volatile, it'd be like making a Licker the killer of a Resident Evil chapter. The perch point idea is cool, but unworkable thanks to maps like Lery's, unfortunately. Spoilers below for Dying Light: The Following:
The far better approach would be making a turned Dying Light protagonist, like Kyle Crane, into the Killer. It's simply more interesting than just a random volatile, though some work would need to be done to justify him being slowed down so much.
The biggest obstacle to this, and Dying Light in general at the minute, is honestly the Tokyo Ghoul chapter. When Ghoul's power got leaked a lot of people believed it sounded more like Dying Light than Tokyo Ghoul- The ultra high mobility idea, and thematic idea of a heroic person being broken into becoming a Killer in the trials, has already been taken by TG now. There are ideas that lend themselves better to Dying Light as part of the power, like maybe the Killer and Survivors are both racing to airdrops that occasionally land in the trial grounds, but at the end of the day Crane would probably be getting a grapple traversal power similar to Kaneki as the core of his kit and I doubt we're getting a Kaneki rival like that so soon.
Anyway, with all that said, I would absolutely like to see it. Even if it was only a skin collection, I think Dying Light would be a welcome and fitting addition to this game.
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I'm excited for the chapter itself, but I also think the mori rework can't come soon enough, I keep finding myself thinking "if 9.0 was already out, I'd be able to mori this person and be done with it instead of hauling them to a hook" or getting in the awkward situation of the sacrifice animation starting, so it IS probably going to be faster to wait for that then do the mori, but me and the slugged survivor still have to wait around for a moment. That stuff getting cleaned up is going to be great.
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Yeah, we need new things to fill out these Quests. Even if you're playing an M1 Killer, 4King every game, and not tunnelling so Survivors can sometimes get chances to heal, it'll still probably be like ~4-5 straight games of Killer before you can finish this quest. Even without the issue of this being part of such a time limited event, where players feel FOMO to complete all quests to get Bathtub Geralt, we have had too many "Hit X Basic Attacks" this Rift already.
Maybe the solution could be Quests that vary depending on the specific account, like "Complete a Trial as [randomly selected Killer you own]" which I think would suit something like a Chaos Shuffle event way better.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
SWFs are usually a bunch of goofballs having silly fun with their friends and are more than willing to throw their buddies under a bus for fun. If there was a THE THING chapter, I would have it where part of the power is having the ability to change the win condition of one survivor over to only winning with the killer. Naturally, even with an swf, that player would want to keep their allegiance change secret until the reveal. How to go about this, not sure, but I'm just pointing out I feel there is a way to have it work out even with SWFs in mind.
Being able to reassign teams like that is an interesting proposal and it's not totally impossible, I know there are some MP games/gamemodes that play around with it like zombie infection modes in shooters. I personally don't think it'd work in regular DbD though. In an event gamemode, I think it could be very solid, but not as a random Killer you have like a ~2% chance of running into any given trial.
I'm also worried about how much changing the 1v4 to a 2v3 affects the game balance in other ways, even if the Killer had no other powers besides the traitor teammate, they would be extremely strong IMO by removing a Survivor from the game like that, you'd probably need to implement some downsides.
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@Marzipan210 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939472#Comment_3939472
If there was a killer perk that made the killer move as fast as a sprint bursting survivor, it would require the killer to hook all 4 survivors, lose 3 gens, and even then it would only last for 2 seconds.
Why do survivors get to have perks that just give them free distance that is un-counterable for most of the killer roster? Isn't this the exact thing survivors complained about with Kaneki? That he could just delete distance for free? Why the double standard? If we are going to say that killers shouldn't have powers that let them delete distance for free then why should survivors have perks that give them distance for free?Please take a moment to take the bias blinders off.
While Killers do not have Sprint-Burst esque Haste bursts, bear in mind that Sprint Burst essentially buys you +6 meters. Unbound gets you about 4.6 meters per proc for 115 Killers, and its activation is not rocket science. Killers don't have big bursts of Haste in their Perks, they get slow trickles because they already move faster than Survivors anyway and dash Killers exist if you want bursts of speed.
I would also argue Killer stealth abilities/Perks also delete distance for free, just in a more indirect and subtle way.
I appreciate that the state of M1 Killers can be frustrating at the minute, but I don't agree that things like Sprint Burst are the problem. Dumpstering exhaustion perks would only serve to decrease player agency.
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Really disagree with this, sorry.
First, it's actually okay if Perks don't require skill or input involved. Not every Perk needs advanced conditions, it is ok to have perks like Botany or Lightborn or Brutal Strength that simply work.
And second, I disagree with putting Sprint Burst and Balanced Landing into the category of a no-skill Perk anyway. Balanced Landing requires thought in how you'll get to the elevated areas, it can easily be useless depending on where the chase is happening (not to mention that verticality is usually to the Killer's advantage, so you're kind of playing with fire). And Sprint Burst will never get much use if you play without thinking about it, you need to avoid sprinting at certain times (or if you're 99ing it, sprint for a while without stopping) in order to reliably use it to make distance.
Lithe is the only Exhaustion Perk that I could agree deserves a nerf, but any kind of significant Lithe nerf would be a pretty big blow for Survivors. It'd need to accompany wider balance changes, like maybe the upcoming anti-tunnel stuff.
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On the Killer side, I'll mention a few (not counting Pinhead because his are going to become General Perks soon, and not counting the ones SoGo has already mentioned. Artist absolutely has the strongest overall Perks out of every post-Nemesis Killer):
Sadako doesn't have the best roster in the world but Merciless Storm is good for those who like relying on skillchecks, and Floods of Rage is an extremely fun and versatile Perk, good on most Killers.
Xenomorph has a very solid selection IMO. Alien Instinct is an underrated alternative to BBQ, Rapid Brutality is amazing on Killers that M1 but don't really need Bloodlust like Clown, and Ultimate Weapon can be used kind of like a modern alternative to Whispers.
Chucky's Batteries Included is a new favourite for me on a lot of Killers restricted by poor traversal or M1 chases and Friends 'til the End has absolutely won me games and is also a decent BBQ alternative.
Unknown's Unbound is great on Killers with special vaults and Unforeseen is a more reliable revision of Trail of Torment's idea.
IDK as much about the nuances of Survivor's meta but I can tell you Nic Cage and Lara Croft have genuinely shaken up the meta, you still have a lot of usual suspects but Dramaturgy-Finesse is a popular combo for people who are confident in their ability to avoid the first hit.
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I'm personally not too invested in picking out specific entities because there's so many, and when BHVR have done stuff like this in the past their interpretation has always been on the looser side. Oni and Spirit take very clear inspirations but they're still a bit different than their typical archetypes.
My personal guess is that it'll be inspired by Chinese folklore though. That's what BHVR were probably originally planning to make with Doctor, until the playerbase voted for the unexpected direction that lead to Doctor. The only other option that was on that poll I know of is Heibai Wuchang, which could be cool for another try at the idea of controlling two Killers. I wonder if anyone else knows the other folklore options that were suggested back then?
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I'm gonna advocate for Funtime Freddy, mostly because Kellen Goff is an absolute treasure for voice acting, especially in a lot of horror stuff. His VA work could easily sell the skin on its own.
It'd be ideal as a Twins skin, as long as BHVR can make reskinning Victor work. Molten Freddy's resemblance to Dredge also makes it a good alternative, but that'd waste the opportunity to have Bon Bon crawling around flinging itself at people.
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A 6-perk mode, either as a Chaos Shuffle or just letting you pick 6, could be really fun, so I support it.
One sidenote though: TBH, I see Chaos Shuffle's problems more as a feature than a bug, it's a good opportunity to expose issues with the game's fundamental balancing and better encourages BHVR to come up with solutions for people's basekits rather than solving balance problems with Perks. Gen slowdown shouldn't be mandatory to play against competent Survivors, and anti-tunnel perks shouldn't be mandatory to have any fun against tunnelling Killers, and I'll happily endure an annoying event mode if it increases the chances of BHVR solving those problems.
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If compromised gens didn't require you to make a commitment, they'd be much more boring to play with, it'd just become a mindless chore of kicking every generator once then not thinking about it again. Having to choose makes things more interesting for both sides. I wouldn't be against a Jagged Compass-esque perk that synergises with compromised generator perks, but as a basekit thing I think the current mechanic is good.
My bigger problem with Machine Learning/Help Wanted is that their rewards for the compromised gen are too similar. There's not much that basic attack cooldown accomplishes that haste won't in the same situation. Even something simple, like maybe Help Wanted transferring Obsession status to one of the Survivors that completed the gen, would help distinguish it a bit more.
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I like the idea behind this, I have a few concerns, but there could be something here:
- If the 20 second chase requirement is a total that carries over between chases, it would be a bit too strong, it's a very lenient activation condition. If the idea is that you need to trigger this during a chase that's lasted at least 20 seconds, I think that's more reasonable.
- I'm a bit worried about SWF coordination invalidating this Perk, they could just get off gens for a few seconds before a Killer completes a break action once they know this is present.
- I think 20 second blockage might end up being too powerful. Even just the information component of this Perk has a fair bit of value, so I think the blocking timer would probably need to be reduced after playtesting.
But in general, I really like the idea of a Perk that provides gen slowdown and information if you're having a long chase and needing to go through a lot of pallets.
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I think they're very solid overall. Ultimately I think it's more important for addons to be interesting than balanced, especially in a PTB. Unbalanced addons can (usually) be quickly tuned to fix them, but uninspired addons need to be completely redesigned. Having a roster of addons that all do unique things is a great start, even if they aren't all equally useful.
The great thing about having such variance is that you can actually make the argument for some addons. Most people have dismissed Access Panel immediately for example, but IMO you should be throwing away the axe for 115% speed in map traversal, so quickly throwing it through a door when you've got the chance is probably going to be more useful for intel reveal than a random spot near you. Or if you're moving to a door to travel through it, might as well throw the axe through while approaching it, you can essentially check one door while emerging from a different door.
I'm probably not right about Access Panel, it likely does suck, but at least you can think about the argument, unlike a lot of other Killers where addons are often objective downgrades of each other or very clearly provide worthless effects. It's a good state to be in.
Though, "Purple Guy Drawing" not being a purple addon? That's gotta be an instant disqualification. 0/10
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I don't think Deathslinger needs big buffs at the minute. He's not crazy powerful but he is in a solid state. Not against buffs, but they need to be well-considered.
I don't agree with making him 115%, I feel like continuing to lower the number of 110 Killers in the game damages the identities of characters. And faster ADS does risk damaging Survivor counterplay. Faster projectile speed risks throwing off years of muscle memory for his mains, and faster reloads just rewards bad Slingers.
Slinger's traversal is awful, and that's the main thing holding him back. I do wonder if future Perks could partially solve this problem, but in absence of that, maybe something resembling a basekit Furtive Chase/2-stack Devour Hope, a Haste status after hooking Survivors? Theme it around something like the morale boost helping with his bad leg.
Oh, and he should be able to ADS without having a round loaded. It wouldn't even make him any stronger, but the ability to bluff with an empty gun has high yeehaw potential.
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What if Better Together revealed your aura while repairing the generator, and your aura lingered for a few seconds after you left the gen? That plus extending the distance means your team could see when you leave a gen, and what direction you're running in.
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I do appreciate there's a lot of fun times to look back on then, but the reality is games can't be casual forever. The average skill of the playerbase improves over time, the playerbase develops the ability to identify & exploit specific tactics (Looping is an amazing case of players essentially developing the game themselves by finding these strategies) and people running fun/weak stuff will always feel the temptation to equip more meta things. Casual multiplayer craziness is really fun, but it has no longevity- Balance is a fun preservative.
I'm certainly nostalgic for those wilder days as well, but I think all that nostalgia would vanish if I saw 4 generators insta-repaired with Brand New Parts again.
On the bright side, I actually think DbD has actually kept more of its casual spirit than most other PvP games. I still run into a lot of goofy situations, and it's incredible that still happens 9 years in.
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IDK why you don't think Addons can suffice for a system like this. The Snares/Pallets for Freddy used to be separated by Addon choice.
Anyway, I'm not against making characters smoother to play, but I think it's cool for Killers to have multiple powers. If you're struggling to use them all to full effectiveness, that's the point of learning and improving. I'm not great at juggling snares/pallets as Freddy and thinking with both powers at once, but that's what separates me from a good Freddy.
Also IMO, while specialising in certain aspects of your toolkit is nice, splitting tools up entirely and forcing players to choose a limited amount can risk characters feeling less skill expressive. Eg. Vecna with only 2/4 Spells, even if those Spells were rebalanced so he'd still be strong, he'd be a much more limited and less interesting character. If a character toolkit is expansive enough that most players can't use every tool to its fullest effectiveness, that's actually a great thing.
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@RJoyYourJoy19 said:
It's the other way around.. it's the way the tokens work that killed it, not the aura revealing. Before aura revealing it was just punishing Solo Q for no reason when Solo Q is in a horrible state already.
Yeah, in Pentimento's case it's just giving players info that, objectively, any SWF on comms that understands what Pentimento is would already have. "Woah, pentimento?" "must be the hex I cleansed at shack" isn't exactly a competitive grade callout. The fact that it'll never actually be hidden was always part of the design compared to other Hex Perks.
Reverting the way the tokens work is way more agreeable IMO and incentivises interesting use of Pentimento from the Killer's side. Though ideally, I'd prefer a wider rework of Pentimento that doesn't punish Survivors for doing Dull Totems…
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I think one angle is a certain level of investment? People talk about the lore all the time, but the lore wasn't complicated at all until the fourth game. However, while 1 through 3 are easy to understand, there's a lot of weird things in those games, things that probably don't have any explanation, and were just added randomly based on vibes. (eg. "IT'S ME", Shadow Bonnie/Freddy, or Golden Freddy) Trying to make all of it fit required a lot of mental energy and community collaboration to actually find all of these rare things and then start trying to interpret them.
It's kind of like how games with a serious learning curve/initial friction can accumulate a very dedicated fanbase, because you've gotten through that initial hurdle, a level of survivorship bias kicks in with the community of other people who have done the same.
FNAF does that with story and atmosphere; Most people play one of the games for a few minutes, get their spooks and go, but for the people who didn't leave immediately and wanted to follow all the loose threads, there was enough to find to keep them engaged until the sequel suddenly came out in a few months to give them more, and then another sequel, and then another…
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I think you missed this one:
FIERY PASSION-
Your devotion to your work ensures that even if you fail, you can still find a way to succeed.
If the Trial ends with 2/3/4 or fewer Survivors having escaped, Fiery Passion activates.
While Fiery Passion is active, being sufficiently toxic in postgame chat will retroactively Sacrifice all escaped Survivors.
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In Pirate's Cove on the map, there's some boxes covered in tarp with a Foxy plushie atop it, acknowledging the fact that he's absent. I would guess the plan is to release him as a Killer skin for Blight or etc at some point in the future.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3935005#Comment_3935005
I'd like to think that Afton simply isn't a stealthy kind of guy. He's a pretty much in your face kind of persona despite "hiding" in a costume. I feel he has too much pride to skulk around. In the FNaF 3, I feel he's either just trying to find you, or just play with you before he goes in for the kill as opposed to literally sneaking around trying not to be scene. He stands quite proud and in your face on those cameras.
He stands quite proud and in your face on those cameras.
I don't really agree with that, (he does sometimes, but IMO he's making an effort to be sneaky when possible) but instead of me just saying "nuh uh", let's make a game out of it and play a few rounds of "Where's Springtrap?". Here's 9 camera feeds (with static and etc removed), and 1 has Springtrap:
Springtrap is on the bottom left image, look to the right of it and you can see his hand.
Round 2!
Springtrap is on the top row, middle image. Look to the bottom right of it, that's his shoulder. The drawing in the bottom right image doesn't count! Bottom middle features The Puppet in the darkness though, so if you saw that feel free to reward yourself a bonus point.
Round 3!
Springtrap is in the bottom left image again, most of his body is in clear view in the hallway. This one will probably have been the easiest out of the three, especially now that you've gotten practice!
There are definitely times where he is 100% blatant and just stares at you though, I've cherry picked these, but hopefully this shows people why some were thinking Springtrap would be a stealth Killer while providing a bit of fun.
I don't personally mind him not being a stealth Killer, though. I think he incorporates enough stealth elements as is, though I am curious why BHVR ruled out making him a stealth Killer, they probably have an interesting reason.
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I'm actually wondering if Haywire will encourage Terminus over NOED. Most endgame Perks up until this point have been one and done powerful effects with an expiration date, but if you're running Remember Me, Haywire and Terminus, they can all last as long as you can defend the switches. Haywire will force the exit gate time to 25 seconds if Survivors reach that "free" 50% threshold and don't have the Obsession with them.
And in case they do have the Obsession with them, or brought things that let them shuffle Obsession status around, you could run Rancor. From there it's really only a matter of picking which Killer you feel is going to be best at getting between the gates to defend them.
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When one of Knight's guards starts a chase, they put down a Standard, (a flag) but there's a delay in it becoming interactable. The standard takes 10 seconds to spawn for Jailer and 5 seconds for his other guards. Once the delay is finished, the Survivor can take it to end the hunt and get Endurance + Haste for a short time.
Sharpened Mount increases the standard spawn timer so Survivors need to wait slightly longer before they can grab it. Most of the time it will not make any difference, but it could win you a chase in some edge case scenarios.
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Hm… Maybe you should throw Coup De Grace & All Shaking Thunder on the build too, and play it with Myers, just to see what happens
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I'm not angry about Springtrap being similar to existing Killers, I was 100% expecting it, super popular licenses usually lean towards simpler Killer concepts similar to what already exists. These Killers might experiment with the game on a technical level (eg. Nemesis adding AI companions, Xeno adding what's essentially a pocket dimension) but in terms of play they will, and should be, very straightforward.
But I am disappointed with him being a ranged Killer. The axe is IMO ok as a Killer design in a vaccum, I don't think it's too derivative, but out of all the Killer archetypes, a ranged power was the worst possible fit for the license. The whole premise of FNAF as a franchise is that you can't run, but you can keep them at bay. Obviously DbD can't adapt not being able to move, but I was fully expecting it to stick with Springtrap only being able to hurt you at melee range. (note: I was also surprised by stealth as an archetype being specifically avoided in his design? Springtrap is extremely sneaky in his debut game)
The security doors/cameras with the weird pocket dimension office and first person Survivor view? It's great IMO, even if it will need some adjustments like giving Survivors a good reason to scan him on cameras, it's an awesome idea. It's just a bummer that the much better part of his kit is having a ranged attack.
I don't think this is unsalvageable though. Deleting and replacing the axe idea completely is of course unrealistic so I'd suggest that direct axe hits should be de-emphasised in favor of the other uses for the axe being stronger. Eg. if the haste in the axe aura was basekit, and direct axe hits had a longer cooldown. Or if camera revealing was more of a threat, so you're incentivised more to use the axe to disable cameras. Stuff like that, really lean into the idea that axe hits are only one use for it and the best Springtrap players should not be landing axe hits 24/7, they should only take the direct hit when the time is right. At the moment, it feels like the axe is less of a "toolkit power where you get to choose your playstyle" and more like "Huntress' style is the correct way to use the axe, and if you miss here's a consolation prize".
I don't like the axe and think it'll always have been a mistake, but I can learn to live with it and if we get to that former vision of its implementation rather than the latter, I think Springtrap could end up in a good place.
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This is a great idea and would be a very cool feature to celebrate something like the 10th anniversary. Maybe the older cakes could be rarer than the newer ones, so they can keep some of their prestige/mystique?
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I wouldn't be against it, but it needs to be considered in comparison to Any Means Necessary because it's very similar in concept. Any Means Necessary is a somewhat undertuned Perk, but understandably so, reviving a god pallet can be a game-winning move. Simply the ability to repair a broken Pallet in a roughly similar manner as 2v8, without a particular downside except a long cooldown, IMO would be a bit much.
Maybe it could be implemented as a Boon? The Boon causes pallets in the area to reset shortly after they've been destroyed/thrown down, but the Killer snuffing the Boon removes those respawned pallets? Or maybe as an Invocation?
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I'm not sure exactly how this would be done, wouldn't you need some new UI element to do this?
Now that map offerings are getting nerfed I do think there's room for conversation about new map offerings. (eg. offerings that bias map selection towards specific kinds of maps, like indoors, wilderness, urban, etc) But IDK about a specific "select any 3 maps to ban" offering, especially if Survivors are stacking 4 of them you can massively bias the map selection.
Maybe instead the existing map offerings could get 2 options when used, one for the 20% chance to be sent to the Realm, and another option to guarentee (unless there's a sac ward) that you won't go to that map?
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Here's my best guess for a Power, based on what we know already: (the security doors and the interview hinting he's a multipower killer like vecna/dracula)
Springtrap's power gauge passively charges, and when it fills, Suit Mode activates permanently similar to Xenomorph. Suit Mode grants him Undetectable, silences his movement, speeds up vaults and increases his lunge distance. Survivors can knock him out of Suit Mode via Cameras, or Springtrap can give it up voluntarily for a bonus to his secondary power.
Springtrap's other power is Animatronic Mode. Much like Hillbilly's chainsaw, he slows down while charging it and it's quite loud and bloody while it charges, but he can feather its charge meter. Once it's full, Springtrap is forced to keep moving forward until he cancels, his camera turn is limited and he steadily starts moving faster the longer Animatronic Mode is active. He can slide off surfaces with this dash by default, but it won't instadown and it's not as fast out of the gate compared to Billy's chainsaw. Colliding with Pallets breaks them, slowing Animatronic Mode (the speed penalty is harsher if the timing would've stunned) and forcing it to build momentum again, but does not cancel it. Animatronic Mode cancels Suit Mode, but becomes stronger if it does, activating faster, preserving Undetectable until Animatronic Mode is also cancelled, and enabling an instadown. On the other hand, if Suit Mode's cooldown expires while Animatronic Mode is active, cancelling Animatronic Mode is much faster and immediately puts you into Suit Mode.
Security doors are similar to Xeno, a tool for Springtrap to teleport around and get Suit Mode back faster while doing it, but also a means for Survivors to defend themselves and knock him out of power. If Survivors interact with Security Doors, they can see a camera view and switch between the cameras of all security doors. Seeing Springtrap on camera (most reliably, by predicting which door he'll teleport to) reveals him to the Survivors but the revealing Survivor is marked via Killer Instinct.
Doors have limited Power that recharges slowly over time- Looking on cameras uses it, but it can also be used to Lock the door temporarily, which will force Springtrap into a much slower animation if he tries to teleport to that door, but placing the lock forces the Door to burn through all its Power. (at max battery, a lock would last ~15 seconds. The camera burns power at about half the rate of the lock, and you can still view cams on a locked door for ~8 seconds of safe camera watching) Springtrap can also turn doors to his favor- Survivors watching cameras don't hear anything nearby and are Oblivious. If Springtrap interrupts a Survivor watching cameras, either by teleporting to their door while it's unlocked or moving there the old fashioned way, he can trigger a unique jumpscare animation, grabbing the Survivor off cameras. Entering a Security Door in Animatronic Mode lets you leave in Animatronic Mode for seamless traversal.
I'm biased here because this concept is relatively similar to what I originally had planned for Springtrap's power, just adjusted to fit into the new expectations based on what little we know, but this is genuinely what I imagine it to be- A Killer with strong traversal and stealth who is either closing distance aggressively or hanging back a bit to lean further into a stealthy playstyle, and Survivors who can't handle their cameras will get overwhelmed by the combination of both strengths.
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@Jtflorencio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932848#Comment_3932848
Read my full post. The Killer stats say running speed (3.8-4.4-4.6) or height (low-medium-high). Why not a separate stat that tells you if the killer breaks faster than others? That wouldn't affect anything...
It's like Anatomy Superior it only works 1x the perk is totally useless because the survi knows that killer jump fastIt won't be a problem if it's in the killer stats. (and even if it weren't there, it doesn't matter, 5% is insignificant)
I did read it, yes. There is totally room in the UI to fit in differences like it, but I'm still a bit worried on how it changes the experience of learning chasing. Movement speeds aren't tied to M1 Killers and the Terror Radius just means you are starting chases at a shorter distance. If things like faster pallet break speed, different vault speeds, basic attack cooldown, lunge distances and etc started to get varied up (outside of the realm of Power stuff, I mentioned Myers does these subtle boosts to M1 gameplay already, but it's kind of his whole thing) it starts to disrupt the transferable skills of the game between characters.
It's kind of like the idea of making Trapper a 120% Killer. It could make Trapper good, but it's not great for new players.
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Myers kinda already does this, with Evil Within levels providing faster vaults as a basekit feature.
Personally… I'm iffy on it. I love my M1 Killers, but the more of these inherent differences we pile onto characters, even minor ones like 5%, the harder the fundamentals of the game become to learn for new players. Getting taken for a deluxe tour of every pallet in the map is very frustrating for sure, but there's probably better solutions. (eg. should Bloodlust provide a pallet break speed increase?)
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I actually think this version would be quite strong, thanks to the Haste. I think it would turn some safe/semisafe pallets into totally unsafe pallets against M1 Killers- If the Survivor has no good option to run away, you just stand still for a bit to proc Insidious, then use the Haste to break the loop. I'm not sure how common it would actually be, it could end up being overpowered or not very good, but worth giving some thought.
Anyway, I approve of the concept. The idea of being able to use Insidious to proc a temporary Undetectable on command and walk with it for a short time as a mindgaming tool is what I have wanted Insidious to get buffed to for a long time.
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I was able to clean up my quests relatively quickly (helped a LOT by completing both Killer/Survivor conditions counting as 2 quest completions for the purposes of the meta-quests, so I don't need to do every single one to get the rewards. sadly, this is probably a bug) but I still really am not a fan of this short window to finish these last bits of the quest. Had circumstances been slightly different for me, I could've completely missed the window to play. People have lives, please let them finish everything at any point during the event and find some different way to stop people from clearing everything too quickly rather than this clunky timegating.
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I would prefer this becoming an official feature, with animation/VFX changes to make it visually clear. If Nemesis does the whip drag, his blue attack VFX should smear on the ground to show how the hitbox is being dragged.
Linger tech/whip dragging allows Nemesis players to do a lot of very cool things, it is not inherently undodgeable/uncounterable (though ofc, it can be, depending on the environment) and it still doesn't put him close to the game's stronger Killers.
@Rokku_Rorru said:
IDK why people are defending it, Nemesis could get much more meaningful buffs if his kit was consistent and polished.
This is a perfectly reasonable argument that I might agree with in some other situations- Let's delete this janky exploit from a Killer and reassign their power budget to other areas of their kit, ones which were actually supposed to exist when they were originally designed.
However… What buffs are you gonna replace it with? This is a feature that gives Nemesis much higher skill expression with his whip and is very powerful, without it he would probably drop a full tier in strength so there's a lot of power to be redistributing here. If you're reassigning power budget to zombies, that's taking power away from the human playing the game and giving it to the AI. (and tbh, I know some Survivors complain about finding basekit zombies annoying already) If you're reassigning the power budget to other aspects of the tentacle, I don't see a good way to do that. Faster cancels or faster holding speed equals less interactive zoning, longer range makes Nemmy less distinguishable from ranged killers and makes T3 less meaningful, stronger Hindered is gonna be even more miserable, reducing/removing the effects of Mutation Tiers makes Nemesis less interesting in general, and whatever change is picked, it needs to avoid just making him into a worse Pyramid Head, which he'd be in danger of being with whip drag removed. Barring a rework, idk how you could reassign Nemmy's power budget away from the whip drag while roughly preserving his current power, and in a way that's healthy for his gameplay.
In short, Nemesis either keeps linger tech, or he gets a rocket launcher.
Oh, and re. Xenomorph, I personally feel like hitting a Survivor at the last possible moment of her tail strike is awesome and really, really wouldn't want that removed either. It's the thing that keeps me playing the character, it feels excellent to do and as far as I know isn't as powerful/abusable as Nemesis' equivalent anyway.
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I think having it as a Hex or something like that would be really cool, but I wouldn't want it as a basekit feature. I prefer having the ability to decide where to hook Survivors myself.
Rework perks that are related to carrying
For context, this list would include:
Wiggle perks: Boil Over, Breakout, Flip-Flop, Power Struggle
Carrying perks: Agitation, Starstruck, Awakened Awareness, Iron Grasp, Mad Grit
Saboteur, arguably Breakdown, and the sabotage mechanic in general
That's at least ~10 perks. I think others related to hook distances, like Devour Hope, would need changes as well. I think uprooting this much of the existing game is unnecessary, having it as an optional Perk instead lets all these things stay while giving people the option to use the mechanic in 1v4.
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For Stranger Things, I think pairing Demogorgon with Vecna is obvious, in an ideal world where that works out with the licenseholders.
Two Knights At Freddy's could make a solid april fools' 2v8 for next year. In an ideal world, it'd be a 5v20 to perfect the joke, but we can't have everything.
Theming a 2v8 around Trickster specifically could be a good opportunity to finally give him a map. The scale of a city inspired map kinda fits for being designed for 2v8 first then scaled back for regular trials afterwards. Could be a good chance to put Kaneki in 2v8 too.
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100% agreed.
I understand that BHVR don't want to have a deprecated feature in the game forever, but the Tomes system don't have to be deprecated. They could create new Tomes purely for gameplay challenges every now and then, eg. a new Chapter releases, they release a Tome that's only got one act, mostly focuses on the new chapter's content, and could be harder/more specific than typical Tome content. Maybe rename it Challenges or something. Having this giant library of nonexpiring quests to work on is a great thing for the game.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
Never really thought about it but of all the killers xeno would be the least capable of working with others lorewise lol like how would it perceive the legion to be any different from the survivors etc.
And it would work terribly in 2v8 as killers who get paired with a xeno would end up having to deal with multi turret safezones as survivors would pile them up everywhere and both killers would be slowed down or powerless, and if u make the turrets not effect the 2nd killer than there would be no point in setting them up as the other killer will just mow them down. And if they are removed completely than xeno has 50% less counterplay and gets to freely run around poking people on tons of low height loops.
Not saying i don't want xeno in 2v8 as hes my 100 main but i think theyd have the most trouble putting him in 2v8 above all others.
Xenos are pretty smart, they're probably capable of adapting to work alongside a human being, it's just that being in that situation would require very extraordinary circumstances, like getting enslaved by an eldritch deity.
Making the Turrets work in 2v8 is gonna be a lot of work, but I don't think it's totally impossible, eg. Other Killers only experience a mild Hinder effect. I think there's a balance that's possible to hit there, and another Killer assisting on turret destruction could actually be good co-op gameplay.
Another alternative, perhaps in a better timeline than this one: Xeno will be saved for a special Alien Vs. Predator event that acts as a 2v8 mode where killers are competing instead of cooperating, and BHVR will use that chance to work out how Xeno can fit into 2v8. Maybe Predator will get its own Weyland-Yutani countermeasure that's more 2v8 friendly and Xeno can use it instead for 2v8?
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Yes, there will apparently be a unique Tomes button in future where all the current lore from the Tomes should be moved to and future lore will be placed. We don't have any details on how that system is going to work yet.
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@Skillfulstone said:
People don't mind the Mori per-say. Before this, Mori animations were liked (or at least tolerated) but now, with them happening in most matches, it got old really quick and now they're merely seen as "additional reason why the game won't end" instead of a cool cutscene that didn't happen often.
By hiding a Mori animation behind a 4k no matter the means, it automatically incentivizes people to slug for the 4k...and we all know how fun and riveting it is. It's true that it happened before already, the Finisher Mori didn't create it, but the sheer number of threads talking about it since the Finisher Mori was introduced speaks for themselves of how it got worse.
We already hear it everywhere, Killers slugging the last 2 and then waiting for one to die (either by bleedout or simply standing over the last slug after hooking the 3rd, wasting minutes instead of ending the game in seconds even when there's hooks within spitting distance) just to Mori the last, is only making people hate those animations due to them encouraging such endgames and making the game even less casual/newcomer-friendly than it already is (as newcomers/low-mmr players will see their games end in a 4k more often).
There's a reason why the dreadful basekit Unbreakable was attempted alongside the previous Finisher Mori PTB: otherwise almost every single games would just end in a slugfest. Hell, during that PTB there were more bleedout slugfest games than normal even though people could get up because Killer players wanted that animation after killing the first 2 Survivors.
[Quite frankly, it wouldn't be that hard to keep the Finisher Mori but make it into something that rewards those that don't slug for the 4k and win the Hatch race without removing 4k slugging for those that merely want to secure the win: The Finisher Mori only becomes available if the last Survivor is on their feet (healthy or injured or Plot-Twisting, that last one is to prevent from trying to purposefully deny the Mori by using the perk right before the other dies) when the second-to-last Survivor dies by sacrifice, by unique Mori (NOT by bleedout) or escapes. Succeeding would grant extra BP for the extra steps.]
(There's threads about similar solutions)
The goal isn't to remove things, it's to make things healthier. Slugging for the 4k was already a common thing, but it wasn't as prevalent and Mori animations weren't seen as a chore. This same mindset applies to countless aspects of the game but this one is currently making a big impact but could be turned into something good.
People don't mind the Mori per-say. Before this, Mori animations were liked (or at least tolerated) but now, with them happening in most matches, it got old really quick and now they're merely seen as "additional reason why the game won't end" instead of a cool cutscene that didn't happen often.
I'm actually not 100% sure this is true, in my personal experience it's seemed like Survivors have been more obliged to skip Moris than they have the Sacrifice animation, which is way more repetitive. It could easily just be a consequence of the Abandon system too, but I'm wondering if it's a psychological thing about Moris feeling more humiliating, because I don't think I've seen the same jump to ESC when I'm ending my games on sacrifices.
Anyway, I think the wait for Mori vs slug for 4K problem are different issues and shouldn't be conflated too much. Waiting for mori should be easily solveable, slug for 4K is obviously a lot harder and has been tried before.
I personally think something like allowing Dying survivors to pick each other up with a ~5-10 second interaction if they're both at 99% could be worth trying? It's nowhere near as strong as basekit Unbreakable and Killers can use dying survivors' distances from each other as a metric for how long before this mechanic comes into play. If Survivors go down near each other (either because of quick downs, or the Survivor's deliberate play, though doing it deliberately is handing the Killer two free hook states) the Killer will be forced to hook, but if they took a major risk via slugging and got 2 people down far away from each other, they can afford to keep the slug going for ages much like they can now. And it'd be a very strong indirect buff to Tenacity, which'd be nice.
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The similarities are fun, but I think "same species" would be a much easier sell than "same being". The Entity is clearly still way higher-scale than IT is, IT has a very small scale feeding cycle in one town despite being a cosmic being, The Entity is genuinely multiversal. I think The Entity is a pretty good picture of what a member of IT's species could become if it fed for long enough.
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I think that, given Rift Fragments being rebalanced around units of 100, whoever defined these rewards worked under the assumption Iri shards were roughly the same way and were about 10x less numerous than they actually are.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927793#Comment_3927793
"Unfortunately, the issue with this is that you'd be incentivsed to only farm BP on the character you've got the highest Prestige level on."
I don't see any issue with this at all. It's no different than playing your survivors that have the most BP offerings on them.
That's true, but it's an easy issue to solve anyway by just spending a bit of BP on that character until you get a few Escape Cakes/Survivor Puddings. A lot harder than bumping up their Prestige enough to the point where you don't feel like you're wasting your time playing them.
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The good:
- Devs definitely accomplished the goal of removing all pain points from having to select quests in the old system, I don't feel like matches are getting "wasted" or any anxiety about not selecting the right tome quest/not doing my tome quests/forgetting to select anything. This doesn't look like much because it's only one bullet point, but it is genuinely quite great.
- The second week of objectives has proven Weeklies won't just be super boring forever and will encourage specific playstyles, I'm excited to see where it goes and if the variety can match the Tomes system.
The bad:
- I feel like the weekly releases are a bit too spread out compared to the quadrants of previous Tomes, maybe there's a better middle ground like bi-weekly releases.
- Dailies are IMO a downgrade. Rewards are much lower, all three boil down to "play 1 match without being afk", and it fully leans into wanting you to play every single day. I would prefer the new system taking more strengths from the old system
- The Compendium being alongside this system for now means this isn't a problem yet, but the stated goal of removing the Compendium still IMO will be absolutely bad for the game. A repository of non-expiring challenges to do for minor rewards is a great asset for the game to have.
- We are still waiting on lore. Decoupling the skins from a hard obligation to tie stories into them is probably for the best, but it's a shame they couldn't launch the upcoming lore system alongside this.
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This is precisely why BHVR have been reluctant about tying rewards to P100s. P100ing is supposed to be an extremely unreasonable process and a demonstration of your commitment to a character, having 17 or more P100s should take many years of playing this game. If everyone's P100, nobody is.
I do agree that some things like default BP earning could be better, more BP offerings should be stronger, etc, but I don't think those things should be done with the specific objective of making P100s easier.
@Blueberry said:
I'd just like if they made those p100's have some bonus bp gain. Like 1% per prestige. So p100 would be 100% bonus bp gain on that character only and your p30 would have 30% extra ect.
I don't think that would be that extreme, just a nice bonus incentive.
Unfortunately, the issue with this is that you'd be incentivsed to only farm BP on the character you've got the highest Prestige level on. I think P100 getting the infinite level 50 bloodweb, and P3 ensuring you never need to spend BP on levelling that character's Perks in others' bloodwebs, are already pretty decent Prestige economy rewards personally. Maybe something like a batch of Iri Shards for each P10 could be nice?
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Yeah, escaping traps should just be a flat number of seconds. I don't think the RNG on bear traps has ever been a positive for the game.
Maybe they could also use this to fix the "no basekit penalty for getting trapped while injured" problem, if you get trapped while already injured a self-rescue could take twice as long.
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A killer can easily target an individual for bringing a map offering
I mean, if you don't want a Killer's emnity, you could just not take them to Eyrie of Crows. Or run in a SWF and play x4 map offerings (which people will probably be doing after the upcoming nerf) so you're all equally guilty.
Survivors can refuse to unhook their teammates who brought the hatch offering
I'm probably missing something here, because idk why a Survivor would do this. Hatch offerings give everyone the same information, and as long as everyone remembered which hatch offering was brought, the incentive structure for a Survivor to let someone die and hope for a hatch escape is the same.
It's also worth saying that IMO this hasn't encouraged toxicity anymore than elements like sandbagging, altruism, successful rescues, or whatever already does and has always done, at least in my experience. A Killer who decides to ruin the day of someone who brought them to RPD probably wasn't going to be very kind in their game otherwise either, they would've found some other reason to proxy camp someone.
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@A_T_E said:
I like most of it, you really seem to have put some thought into it.
Primrose (Altruism):
You start the Trial Injured, and with the Broken status effect for 10 seconds. Secret
10 seconds sounds a bit short. Most Killers won't ever even reach a Victim before those 10 seconds are up, let alone see them. It should probably be more like 1 minute.
Bog Laurel (Objectives):
Common downside: Start the Trial with your Perks at Tier 1 effectivness. Contributing a total of 75% of a Generator's worth of repair progress restores a tier to all of your Perks. Secret.
75% seems a bit steep. 60% might make more sense, when compared to the Killer version of said offering, 1 hook isn't very hard to accomplish, 2 hooks for full tier-3 perks again still easy.
So having to repair 120% of gens to get full perks makes sense to me, perhaps even less (110%), but more than just 50% for a total of 100%, so you can't just get full perks back from repairing one generator alone.
Raven (Deviousness):
Common downside: This Offering disables itself if you used any Addons with a rarity higher than Common. Secret
Amaranth (Survival):
Common downside: This Addon disables itself if you bring an Item to the Trial. Secret
Not bringing addons (for Killers) or items (for Victims) seems counterproductive, when one of your main arguments for making the offerings more viable for use, is that it's hard to use them all up. You would just be trading using a trash offering for the addons/items, and then you just end up with more of the other latter. In other words, I don't think people should be disincentivized from going full-kit.
An alternative change, at least for Victims, could be for the bonus objective to call for the person to fully-deplete the item they brought with them. Killer would need another approach, as addons can't be depleted. Perhaps something along the lines of "use your Killer power X times" or something.
Mouldy Oak (Uncommon):
Reduces the spawn distance between Hooks by -1.5m, and negates the effect of any other Offerings that change hook spawn distance.
This seems a little unfair, as it would just make it so the Killer could affect hook distance. I think it would make more sense to just have it negate hook distance offerings, but then make it available for Victims, too. Akin to Sacrificial Ward and map offerings.
To clarify the Broken, it's there really to make the initial heal inconvenient. Rather than immediately healing at the start, you spend that 10s moving to find a gen, then have to decide whether to waste prime generator time healing, or to power through the injury. I think it could be increased to 15s or 20s, but IMO 60s of Broken risks being too impactful, I was trying to be mindful about ensuring a soloQ player isn't too severely damaging their team by their greed. (I initially thought of and rejected one that'd give you Exposed on Boldness for the same reason)
I think you're totally right that the 75% is much better as 60%, 75% is probably too much.
Yeah, I wasn't happy with that economy aspect for the Survivor's equivalent either, but Addons aren't as impactful for their items, so no item at all was what I settled on. One alternative could be the Item they bring is taken from them at the start, and they regain it after searching their first Chest? The idea of needing to deplete your item is IMO too easy thanks to just being able to bring a toolbox. For Killers, I went with a Commons only restriction because, while definitely not affecting every Killer equally, it will usually limit you and encourage you to use your common addons when you might not otherwise and give you a different experience using your power than a normal match. (and ofc, if you don't want to use a double common build, you have lots of other choices) I'd welcome other ideas, I was struggling to think of anything because of how much Killer Powers vary.
My thought process on the Oaks is that Petrified Oaks can give great value for Survivors, but the oaks usually don't give much value for a Killer, so a Survivor negating a Putrid Oak wouldn't matter too much. I might be wrong though, someone more familiar with the game's maps might be able to provide a better argument of the relative strengths.